Spiritual Intimacy: Being Seen, Sharing Meaning, and Deepening Connection (Episode #104)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michael is licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, over the past few weeks we've been talking about different types of intimacy. Today we're going to talk about spiritual intimacy and how it applies to our relationships and, and maybe also how it applies to how we approach our relationships. So, Marianne, today's topic, I'd love your initial thoughts.

Thanks, Dr. Skinner. I'm really glad to be here for another discussion. I love these discussions because I think these are areas that we don't often explore, especially within our relationships. And so being able to say, hey, let's carve this out and let's look at it and make a little more sense of it, I think it's fantastic. So when we're talking about spiritual intimacy, I think it's broad. And I think for a lot of people, I. What one of the things I see with my clients, oftentimes if I say, let's, you know, let's talk about spiritual. And like, the minute they hear that, they might say like, I don't want anything to do with religion. Nope, I don't want to go there. The word spiritual is often synonymous for religion. So I think I want to start out, at least for me, when I'm talking about spiritual. Spiritual, there is religion and there are a lot of people who practice their spirituality engaging in religion. So to our listeners or viewers, if you're saying, like, I'm not going to listen to this one, I invite you to stay around because this applies to everybody. I think just being human, we have an innate sense of spirituality, whether it's conscious or not.

And for me, Marianne, it's a really fundamental question that we all have to ask ourselves. Maybe an existential question. Am I a spiritual being? What do I believe? And how do those beliefs influence my day to day living? How do I perceive myself and, and this concept of spirituality in my context of relationships and how I approach relationships. And when we ask that question to ourselves, I mean, think about it. How do I see myself as? Am I a spiritual being? And if I am, what does that mean?

You know? You know, Dr. Skinner, it's amazing the things that we carry and bring with us from our childhood. And as I'm hearing you talk about this, I am transported back to probably second to fourth grade. My parents bought some books called Childcraft. I don't know if you've heard of those before or not, but they weren't the Encyclopedia Britannica, but they were books that had certain subjects. So there's one on science, there's one on arts and crafts, one on fables, and there was one on. On the Native Americans. And in this book, I remember just reading the stories and it said, this tribe. This is what's about them. And it had a lot of stories. And I was a reader and I loved stories. And so I'd skim through and look for the readers. And one of the things that I noticed and learned from, from that childcraft book was that as a general whole, Native Americans often view everything. The earth, the. The ground, the trees, everything has a spiritual component. And so looking from this lens, this is a philosophy that I think exists that oftentimes we don't really think about or notice.

Yeah. So what you're saying here, to me, interestingly, is everybody, every race, every human living, living being, has to address this concept of where am I from? Who am I? Am I a spiritual being?

What is my purpose? What am I doing here? These are the existential questions.

It really. Then if we look internally, then we have to come to a conclusion that is actually part of my story. And part of your story is the conclusions you've drawn when we start talking about spiritual intimacy, whether we agree with somebody or not. And let me give you a couple of examples here. When I was studying Chinese, I minored in Chinese, and it pushed me so hard, I went over and lived in China at the University of Nanjing for a spring term there, and I took a class every semester, and then my master's thesis and my dissertation was on Chinese families. And we were sitting in a class, and my professor was very knowledgeable about Buddhism and Taoism and the Eastern religions. And he took concepts from the Dao de Jing and he took concepts and all. They were just enlightening. Incredible. And we're reading them in Chinese and he's saying, okay, let's look at this character and the meaning of it. Now let's look at this character and let's put them together. And it was a spiritually enlightening experience. Reading it in the natural language and having him help us interpret it. My whole point there is, when we think about spirituality, it doesn't necessarily mean we're sitting in a pew at church. It is a place where we come together and share a common value or a virtue or a way of being with each other. This. This rings true to me. And to me, when we share that man, it's enlightening and it's fun. I think that's spiritual intimacy.

I think everything that we do, we use language as a way to communicate. But what are we trying to communicate? How we see the world, how we interact, how we interface. And there are some things that, yes, we can communicate spiritually. Like, hey, let me tell you about this. In my own spiritual practices, there are times that I'll come to my spouse and say, hey, I want to tell you about this experience that I had. And this might be something that really moved me, or something that through prayer and meditation I was studying, I was able to make meaning of or understand, or I felt and experienced in a different way. But once again, I'm trying to put words and making meaning of something that I've experienced, and that's tricky. It really is an example of this. Several years ago, my husband and I were out camping, and we went up for our morning walk. Our kids were still sleeping, and the sun was just coming up, and it was really beautiful and quiet, and there was a river running along. You know, we said, hey, I'll dare you to go dunk in the river. And we're in our pajamas with the sweatshirt, and guess what? We both ended up dunking. I remember my husband coming up out of the water, and in that moment, there was a moose that had just entered into the water. And in that moment of seeing this moose and my husband just come up out of the water and there's a moose right there. It's one of those moments where time just kind of stands still and there are no words to even describe this. We just had an ice bath in the river. It's fresh early morning, and there's a moose standing in front of us, and things are quiet and still. There are no words for that. And in that moment, it was about being alive. And there's this deep, sacred spirituality in.

That place that reminds me of Laura Hildebrand's book on Louis Zamperini, Unbroken. And I absolutely love that book. I really do. It is phenomenal. And I will never forget that part of the story in the book where they were on the raft and they'd been on the raft. I can't remember how many, 30, whatever days zeros had tried to shoot them. Sharks had come after them. And finally there was this day, as he describes it, on the sea, after all of those experiences. And there was a stillness. And maybe that's what I hear you saying with the moose, Jeff, and. Right. I see that moment, Marianne. That complete stillness. It can happen in the mountains. It can happen on the beach. It can happen while I'm just meditating or I'm in a place of just pondering on something. And there's calmness, this stillness, this thing rests upon me. And Louis Zamperini, on that day on the ocean, that's when he said to his higher power, if you're there, and if I live through this, I will consecrate or give my life to you. Right. And, you know, going through the rest of the book, and I'm not going to ruin the story. If you haven't read Unbroken, please do. It's a beautiful circling back to that moment in his life that changed him forever. And to me, those are the moments that when we hear people's stories or we experience that with them, those are moments that are just so incredibly valuable. And I have had the privilege of being with people near the end of their lives or last few days or last few breaths, and watching that tender time. Marianne. And seeing them as they transition out of this life and feeling that power of wow, as well as watching them come into this life.

One of the challenges that I've had in my life as I struggled with infertility, with polycystic ovarian syndrome, which makes it really difficult to get pregnant. And so for years and years and years, I did a lot of fertility treatments. And at one point in time, I found out that I. I actually went in for a surgery. I was having some problems, and the doctor said, you're pregnant. We can't do the surgery. I said, I'm pregnant. And they said, but you might lose it. And. And so there's this really hard, really, really painful time, this period that I was going, hey, I want to have this baby, and hoping for a miracle. And it didn't happen. It didn't occur, and I didn't have. This isn't a common experience for a lot of people to have. It actually ended up having to have an emergency surgery because it. It almost took my life. And trying to make sense of this afterwards, I remember I couldn't really talk to my mom about it. She'd had a lot of kids. She didn't have any problems with that. But my grandma called me one day and said, you know what? I carried a baby that died. And I carried it for, like, three months. And in that moment, when my grandma shared that with me, all of my tears came out. It gave me permission because we had this shared understanding and sense at this moment. Then I connected with her in a way that there were no words to connect. And that was a bonding space. I was at my. So vulnerable, such a vulnerable space. And my grandma could say, I get it. I've been there. And that allowed me to. It validated me.

So, Marianne, you absolutely just did what I would refer to as spiritual intimacy. Something very vulnerable, something that a grandmother could share with you. It doesn't have to be in a marital relationship. It could be with a child. It could be with a grandparent, it could be with a co worker. In the right context, those moments are the ones that bind us together. That moment with your grandma, and thank you so much for sharing that, because that's exactly what I'm looking for, is those moments that you can't predict, they just all of a sudden, they're present. It brought back to me a memory that I had sitting in a church because I grew up on a farm and all of my neighbors were farmers, and it was such a dry summer. And I'll never forget this moment. We were sitting in a meeting, and outside it started raining, and the whole audience just went silent. And it was almost like this expression of deep and profound gratitude. And I could not have been more than six. And I remember that feeling of just that. What's happening here? With the excitement that it was raining.

And so what we're talking about here is this felt sense of being that we don't really have words for. And, you know, a couple months ago, we were in Hawaii for work. I was there for a disclosure, and I want to talk a little bit about disclosures with this, but my husband and I were heading to a beach, and it was one that you couldn't access by, you know, bike. There wasn't any public parking. You had to park down the road. And then it was in the neighborhood. And as we walked through some of the grasses that were there on the way to the beach, my husband and I, just as we walked through it felt sacred. There was a feeling there. And we both said something. We feel something here. We don't know what it is. And we both started to whisper. And it wasn't because there was anything that said, please whisper. I mean, it was just a beach, but there was something in that space that felt different. And we both felt it. We didn't know what it was, but we both. Our bodies reacted to it. And so it's this felt sense that we don't always understand.

I have often said places can create feelings all by themselves. There's a feeling in certain places that you go and you're like, what is this? For me, I've had that experience in The Redwoods. And I've had that in a few other places in New York. I've had other times where I've experienced those. Like, what is this place? What is this? What is this here? Those are the kind of moments when we share them. We're sharing a part of us with each other. And maybe you share something that from the Bible or whatever scripture you use, the Tao Te gene, whatever it may be, and you share it, you share those moments with each other and you're letting the others into your thought processes. That, Marianne, is what I'm referring to. When I look at spiritual intimacy and I wonder how often we're being vulnerable and sharing that part of ourselves or if we're holding back and not being seen in that spiritual side of us.

Going back to disclosure, when we talk about the formal therapeutic disclosure, there can be, not always, but I have been able to witness as a therapist something that happens for a couple when there is such emotional vulnerability. When one partner says, let me tell you what I've experienced, let me tell you. So whether it's the betrayed partner saying, let me try to put into words all of my pain in my impact letter, or when a partner who's betrayed has said, let me tell you about my life and my experiences and. And their vulnerability is so raw and so open. These are sacred moments that I notice. There's just a connection that happens there and it becomes something that we want to be reverent about. And I don't mean that in a churchy sense. I just mean that in this is a very special space that both partners are there and they are communicating and they're not even using a lot of words, but there is attaching and bonding and connection that is happening in these spaces. And that's the intimacy that we're talking about, letting our partners see all of us. Let us see the pain, let us see the things that hurt us and the things that we rejoice with.

That Marianne reminds me of a book I have referred to many times. It's called the Art of Confession and it talks about it from multiple religious perspectives of what that actually does. And you describe this concept of being seen, letting it out. And that too, a confession is disclosure really is impact letter, emotional restitution. Part of that's that confession, interestingly, what it does to our psychological well being. And so there is something about being present with people in their experiences where I say, I have struggled with, I have dealt with this. These have been my life experiences. Those two can create those moments that are the Words can't express them because they're so palpably powerful. In how they influence how we see and feel each other. And there is a mindful meditation that I do with couples at the end of my intensives. It's about a 10 to 12 minute experience. And there's a line in there that is so powerful. And it's this. Who are you really? And who is it that you are looking? Those lines are just fascinating to me. Who is this me? And who is this person that I'm looking into. That speaks so much more than just a physical body, A sense of this entity, this being in front of us? And when we really start to feel and see and experience each other that way, it's profound intimacy. No. No secrets. Here I am. This is me, this is you. This is we. This is us. And it's just beautiful.

I love everything that you just shared with that Dr. Skinner. And I'm thinking about, if I were listening to this, I might. You say, like, how do we get there? How do I get that? Like, that's great. That sounds really good. But how do I do that? As you were talking about, you know, here's this visualization that you said that you do. I think. Did you say it was a visualization?

It's an eye meditation. It's a meditation looking each other in the eyes.

Okay. So this meditation that you do. And this is something that you do with couples. I was also reminded in the back of the book. The Betrayal Bond by Patrick Carnes. He has a visualization where you're visualizing turning to the north. And asking some questions about what do I need from this direction, turning to the east, the west, you know, turning to all the directions and looking at the past and looking at the future. And some of this is really, I think, a lot of this. For me to be able to access spirituality with my partner, I have to be able to find it within myself. I have to slow down and listen and find for me what's inside of me. But, yeah, where do you want to go with that?

So I've got two thoughts. To answer your question, how do I get there? I think that that is a process where we continuously create an environment of safety. And feel comfortable enough to share those parts of us with each other. And we have to be open and receptive to each other. Making sure that we're never critical, we never misuse it, we never make light of it. Because those are our sacred parts that we are protective of. So I think that we have to create an environment where we recognize that these are places that are significant and.

Precious, which means that the wounding can be even much deeper were we to be wounded, because this is deep, deep.

Vulnerability, because I'm sharing the deeper part of me. And so that element, I think we have to make sure that that's a safe part. And then the next part of it is we got to figure out ourselves. Like, if I was to give our listeners an experience to go off of today, Marianne, I'd say, go write a letter to yourself of how you see yourself spiritually. Who am I? What am I doing here? What is the meaning of life to me? And how do I see a higher power? Do I not see higher power? What is. What is my. My belief system? And then how does that influence how I am with myself and other people? Those reflective questions, Marianne, then get us to a space of this is me. And if you're comfortable, share that with your spouse, share it with your children. And what you'll find is you'll have really meaningful moments.

One of the things that I see so many times with my clients is my clients will say, and I. And I have some clients who do a lot of spiritual. That's part of their daily self care, is their spirituality connecting spiritually. And I have clients who, when I talk about the daily self care, they'll say, oh, I don't believe in any of that. I was raised this way, or I grew up this way, but that's not how I'm living. And there's been an attachment wound with their higher power or with their spirituality. And so if that fits for anybody who's listening or watching, I would invite you to also say, what happened? What is the wounding? What needs to be repaired or grieved or even acknowledged and understood. Because I think we haven't talked today about spiritual wounding, and that can get in the way.

Yeah. And I think we could do a whole podcast on how that prevents intimacy. Just. I'll give you two quick examples. I was reading a research study that indicated that about a third of us see a higher power as we saw our primary caregivers.

Right.

And if my primary caregivers were controlling, psychologically manipulative with spirituality, then I don't want anything to do with that God. Because if they're like. If God is like my parents, I don't want that God. So there's that part of it, and then the other part of it is where they've been harmed by other people who've used spirituality in ways that are inappropriate for manipulation and control. And Those two are ways that we damage people in a spiritual realm. And so it's trying to rediscover sense of self. And who is this God, if there is a God? And what are the traits of this God and this higher power? And that's really a self reflective question. What do I believe? And again, that's part of who we are. And I think everybody at some point in their life are going to have to ask that question. How do I see this? And who am I in relationship to this higher power? If I believe in one?

This is about our story. So even if we're saying this is something I experienced and it created a lot of pain and trauma and caused me to step away from something, even sharing that with someone else is once again, this is part of spiritual vulnerability. Let me tell you about how this impacted how I see myself in spirituality. So.

So as we close, Marianne, I just want to share one part of this with our audience because I want them to know me more. Right? So I believe in a higher power. I believe in a loving God and I believe in a Savior. I believe he is the most incredible, loving, caring, forgiving, kind entity being. That's who I am. That's what I believe. And I have had multiple experiences throughout my life where I have felt God's love, I have felt the peace from God. And I know those feelings are incredibly personal, but they're so real to me in such incredible ways that I couldn't deny it. That's who I am. I believe there is goodness in all people, all religions. And I know from my life experiences that has blessed my life.

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that, Dr. Skinner. We work really hard with this podcast to touch a broad range and to really teach principles. As we're talking about spiritual vulnerability, I love that you've shared what you believe. I also believe in God, a higher power. And what I will say about my own personal journey is that I have found. I believe in Jesus Christ. And that is where I have found so much of my healing as I have worked in my own recovery from betrayal, trauma, and making sense of what I've experienced as a betrayed partner in the recovery world. We often talk about 12 steps. We talk about a higher power, about looking at some for something that's bigger than us, looking for meaning, existential meaning. And so for whatever that looks like for our listeners, I invite you to make sense of and share, I think so much of the spiritual intimacy. It is about allowing ourselves to be seen, about sharing. And that's the attachment and bonding. And as human beings who have been hurt and who hurt each other because we all do. For me, that higher power being able to surrender and say, here's what I'm experiencing. Maybe I can't share that with my spouse if they've hurt me, but I can go to my higher power. And I've been able to go to my higher power and say, here's my experience and find healing through sharing it in these very deep, quiet moments of pain. For me, that's been a really important part of my own personal journey of healing.

Thank you so much for sharing Marianne to our listeners. I wish we could sit down one on one. If I had the desire of my heart, I'd love to sit down one on one and I'd love to learn about your spirituality. My point is that brings out so much inside of all of us. So thank you for letting us share our experiences with you. May you be blessed in your experiences and we invite you to share our podcasts with others. We appreciate you, our listeners, and invite you to share with others. And then we would also invite you to come join us at the upcoming second annual Human Intimacy Conference, March 13th and 14th, where we're going to be talking about healing from sexual betrayal, dealing with the trauma of it, and then spending time talking about reintegration with couples, helping them rebuild, reclaim, whatever term you want to use, work through the difficulty. So we'd love to have you join us. You can sign up at BI Human Intimacy and we'd love to have you join us. If you use the coupon code 30 off, get 30% off your registration.

Thanks, Dr. Skinner.