The Affirming and Healing Balm of Acknowledgement (Episode #44)

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Help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner. Today I have a very special guest, a friend of mine, Costa. Petra. George. Costa, you are. We've been a friend doing lunch and learn for many, many years. I'm so glad that you are joining me today.

Yeah, thank you, Dr. Skinner. I'm. I'm more than overwhelmingly grateful that I've learned so much from you for throughout the time that I first met you, through the ITAP training and stuck with you. And I'm every day I'm grateful for that. So yeah, I'm really grateful to be here and talk about things as it comes.

So I want to introduce our topic today. So to our listeners. Costa and I were talking about doing a podcast and have been for a while and he has a phenomenal topic, the affirming and healing balm of acknowledgment. So when I first saw that, I'm like, I love the idea of acknowledgment as it relates to our relationships. And so Costa, I'd love you to kind of start our today with just introduce our listeners to the affirming and healing balm of acknowledgment.

Yeah, I think it's a phenomenal topic too because it's a. It's a way to approach relationships. It's a theme that helps us to kind of gauge and consider. It's another, it's another way of focusing on intimacy. How do we acknowledge each other? So I'm going To begin us, Dr. Skinner, by, by referring to a sweet anecdote that comes from a film that I think. So it's A. It's an. It's a film that many people are going to be familiar. And it's an older film. It came out in, I believe, 1990. So I don't remember all the details, but I remember some parts of it as being a very lovely film. And in particular, I want to draw attention to the last one of the last episodes. So the name of the film, which is going to be a very familiar title for many, is called Dances With Wolves. It's an American epic Western film. And it's, it's a. It's a drama about a lieutenant, one Lieutenant Dunbar, who ends up joining the Sioux Indians and gets to know them and takes on a. A spouse and so on and so forth. And after, after time with them, he decides to go back to the army and advocate for the Sioux Indians. And so what I'm going to describe, I can only describe and can't show it to you, but listeners can actually look up this final scene on the Internet with ease and it's worth looking at. It only takes a couple minutes to look at it, but I'm going to quickly described describe it as a platform as a foundation for the talk about acknowledgment. So in this farewell ending scene of Dances With Wolves, this man, Lieutenant Dunbar, is now leaving the tribe in the winter scene. It's slowly starting to snow, it's cold, and he's on his horse mounting. And the Indians are surrounding him as he's taking off. And just before he leaves, some, some Indians, some of his friends of his, his new family come to him and offer him gifts. It's a very touching scene. They're sad, there's some tears, they're saying goodbye to him with very few words. And then he mounts his horse. It's time for him to leave. Except as he leaves, there's one more friend who is offering him a farewell. And this one comes in a different form. There's his closest friend who's on top of a cliff on his horse with a spear. And he's shouting off, shouting out from the cliff in a way that everybody looks up in a striking connection with him as this friend of his called Wind In His Hair, shouts out to this, to his friend that is leaving, called Dances With Wolves. And he shouts off with these lyrics, he says, dances With Wolf, I am Wind In His Hair. Do you see that I am your friend? Can you see that you will always be my friend? And he continues and repeats this even as he's slowly drifting off with his horse. And he repeats it as long as the man can hear him, he shouts it out from his lungs. And I love that scene because what is conveyed, this is a claim that I love you. And this is not Data. This is not saying, I, I, I, I know you. Somehow, with Data, this is a passionate, heartfelt, I claim you. I'm connected to you. You're my brother, you're my friend. And that's the scene.

And, and the beauty of that, right? I mean, you're describing this. I am your friend. That, that, that is. There's something deeper, and it touches you. And I can tell, Costa, as you're talking about that, why does it touch you so deeply?

Well, I'm going to suggest, because I'm going to suggest, actually my, I'm going to. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll offer now my conclusion. I think that there's something not only meaningful, but powerful, energetic, and, dare I even say, touching. And I'm going to give us some, some serious applications for this. But sometimes the application for acknowledging somebody can also be nothing short of fun. Lack of a better term, fun.

Explain.

Well, I'll give you my example of that. And I, I guess I don't mind doing it on air. It's very personal. But I'm very happy to do it. It's not always fun. The anecdotes I have are actually very serious. However, I'll give you a fun one. So I happen to live in, in a, in a, in a complex where I overlook a large parking lot, and there's a deck on the side of where I work out of. And sometimes I see my wife leaving the dead, leaving into the car to get to the car, and she's in the parking lot, and if I'm not busy in session, I might pop out on the deck and call her. And recently, as I was kind of reviewing this little film clip from Dances With Wolves, and it was fresh on my mind, and I shared it with my wife as well. And as she was walking off to go to her car, I went on the balcony, where there's lots of other cars and people that could hear, and I started shouting out at her. Now, I don't know the Sioux language, but I do a foreign language. I happen to know Greek. So I started shouting out at her, and I started shouting out at her, and it, you know, she. Maybe it could have embarrassed her, but she actually didn't look at me, except her hands waved to me. Goodbye. See you. She didn't necessarily claim me, but I was happy to shut and Every once in a while I'll do that. And yes, I love to claim my wife.

And, and, and what's so beautiful about that is it's now this, this thing for you, your wife, it's a message. And really what's the message? What's the underlying message?

The underlying message is you're mine, I'm yours. I acknowledge you as not just there, I acknowledge you as my bride, as the one who is always going to be with me, the one who makes sense of my life. So when I make that acknowledgment, I'm considering now through that help of that little film clip, I'm, I'm considering what is the, what is the role of acknowledgment in my life? And, and I'm inviting listeners to consider what is the role of acknowledgement throughout your lifespan, from the time you were a child to the time you were in high school, to the time you had relationships. And ultimately, if you're married, what is the role of acknowledgment in your marriage? I consider this not as a one time question, but as an opportunity that, that has lots of applications, you know.

And there's something that you're describing here. How often in our lives, and you use the word claim and some people might have a negative connotation of that, but when we think about it in terms of love, when we think about it in terms of care, bonding, attachment, we do, we claim each other. I'm yours and you're mine. And when we, the couples we work with, experience so many challenges, so much adversity and even this concept, I can just see some resistance. Well, you didn't claim me. Right, you, right, you. In fact, you went and claimed other things or other people. And, and, and we're talking about a deeper form of intimacy in this recovery, in this, in this process of life and cost. So that's what I love about this concept is when we really understand it, human attachment, it really is helping people reclaim their relationships.

Exactly. So if we could, let's consider here with that, let's consider a marriage where there has been a wound, where there's been a, a very deep wound. Let's consider even something very real for our world in our age. Let's consider the opposite of a positive connective acknowledgment. Let's consider a scenario where there has been a, an infidelity in a committed relationship or a marriage. Okay, so here we now have the experience of persons feeling something different than the description that I was given earlier. About Dances with Wolves. Here we know that when a partner feels the experience of betrayal, as you have, have you, have you devote your life teaching and explaining this yourself? Dr. Skinner, a person obvious often has the experience of. Well, we know the experience. We know the experience of trauma. We know the experience of the symptoms of what that does to a person who experienced betrayal. Now why am I even beginning to just touch on this? Because this is, I'm suggesting the opposite of that claim. So we know that trauma or a traumatic experience, especially in a serious, it can actually take on a whole scope of symptoms related to post traumatic stress disorder. And there's several characteristics of that. But the one that I want to focus on here is not only, you know, I feel threatened, I feel. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm constantly thinking of these things. My moods are getting really up and down. My hyper vigilance, my cognition is not my best. But most of all, for our purposes here, I want to talk about the characteristic, what we would call criteria C, where when a person experiences trauma, and this certainly applies to the trauma of infidelity, a person experiences the avoidance of person places and things. That's the, or situations or objects I'm at. And that's the description that I want to give. So let me just introduce a quick kind of foundational couple and then we can explore it a bit if I could. Yeah, so there's a woman, we'll call her name Barbara, Barbara's husband. Some, a year ago, let's say, she, she found out that there is this, you know, in a work situation, he meets somebody, meets somebody online, whatever, and she discovers that, my goodness, my husband has been seeing somebody and it's actually not the first time. So what is going to happen to Barbara, as is often obviously her, her disappointment, her discouragement, it might lead her to investigate more about it. I want to know who this person is. Is she married? What does she look like, where does she live? And she discovers that this woman actually lives with her husband, this married woman at an, at an exit not far from her home that she's very familiar with. And this particular exit is, is called Breezy Bluff. It's a beautiful little ocean town, a touristy town that was very beautiful and quaint for this, this woman. But now that quaint little town is, has a whole different experience for her now. And, and they, this couple goes on without professional help, but not getting helped. And then at a later point they finally decide to get professional help. So now we look and see the impact of of this experience compared to how do we, how do we bring this couple back to experiencing a claim and acknowledgement that is opposite of that experience? Just one more comment before I pause. This woman, when she came to me, I, I administered an assessment called the I passed assessment, which you're, you're the teacher of in the ITAP organization, Dr. Skinner. So the I passed assessment, which is given to partners who experience trauma, reveals many things. And one of the questions I'm just going to give, one of the questions was do you avoid people, places or activities that remind you of your partner's sexual behaviors? Her answer, which I pulled up as a remembrance, her answer was more often than not. So she explained to me that when she passes that one time familiar exit that she still sees to this day, her experience was, as she explained it, this beautiful little quaint town now does something to her stomach. It renders her gut wrenched. So could we talk about what might help? How do we bring that back to an experience of, of acknowledgment instead of unacknowledgement?

Yes, I love to see this transition because what you've just described, I think many of our listeners at some point will relate to. Right. There's been some kind of letdown. Maybe it isn't always infidelity or sexual betrayal, but maybe it's financial, you know, misalignment or. We've argued and we fought and we haven't been able to resolve it. I mean, we argue and fight over many different issues. So how would you reconcile, how do we acknowledge that acknowledgement you're talking about? How do we do that in this situation?

So in a situation like this, I have one answer. But it's a situation like that is, you know, it's not in the textbook exactly. It's, it's, it's a creative idea of thinking out and the work that you and I do every day, Dr. Skinner, are offering suggestions, being creative to how does this couple pull themselves together after going from an enjoyable exit to a gut wrenching exit? So I lifted up this suggestion to the couple. It's a suggestion that they needed to wrestle with a bit because it, it's going to sound very, very strange at first. So I invited this couple, Barbara and her husband. I invited them to consider what if? And my what if is this. What if he takes her hand? And by the way, I, I knew this couple as a couple. They both came to me initially together. And I also, in, in this case, I saw them together originally and then began to do individual work with him. As a couple. So I presented this particular idea to them, each but in an individual kind of way, because I didn't want to impose this. I wanted to see how they responded to this idea. So my idea was for the husband, I said, what if. What if you take your wife's hand, if she'll let you intentionally and invite her to do something? Invite her. Now they're both trying to figure out their marriage, and, you know, at least they're both committed to therapy. And I. What if you took your wife's hand and invited her and asked her if she would come with you to Breezy Bluff exit, but in a new way? Now, when I. When I invited the husband to do that, he became pretty intense, pretty stiff. Well, why would I do that kind of a posture. When I invited the same question for his consideration for his wife in a. In a similar way, she. Her. Her reaction was a body language that immediately spoke to me. I'm uncomfortable with where you're going with this. I am gut wrenched to the thought of going with my husband to this exit. Why? And she didn't say that. I could see that in her body language, but I continued my description. So my description would be, what if they went together to this exit? And if for a new purpose, they go intentionally, and they know where this person lives. So they find a place somewhere in the town. They don't go to her house. My suggestion was they go somewhere to the square of the area, but isolated, Separate enough that it's. They can have a conversation that's private, but close enough that it represents the. The town square, if you will. And find. Also locate a spot that represents a. An object of. The object of. Of this couple, of this person. Maybe a tree or a bench. So that's what I'm suggesting so far. And then they create this ritual in my suggestion, where the man faces the tree and stands back some 10ft and asks his wife if she would be willing to stand next to him, but a little bit back on his side, but back a little ways from him, but on his side. And what does he do in this ritual? At this point, his ritual would be something like this. He faces the bench or the tree, and he takes his time and turns to all four directions as if in a gaze, as if to be looking. Looking for what? Looking for this couple. Looking for this person. Why would he do that? I'll explain. Because now we're on the path of doing the opposite of avoidance. But we're not doing it alone. We're doing it in a Thought out way with an intention to it. Now, actually spotting this person would be like a needle in a haystack. He's not likely to find her, but the attitude would be, I am looking for a purpose, I am seeing. And then likely great likelihood that he would not find her or the husband. He would turn to back to the object, the tree that would vicariously represent them. And he would offer some words to that person. New words. New words. And perhaps it would be best to write this down and it would be prepared and it would be something like the following. Hello, Mr. And Mrs. So and so. I am so and so. And I just. And just behind me is Mouth, my authentic and eternal partner, Barbara. I am deeply grateful that she stands behind me in my sincere repentance. I highly regret my past inappropriate behavior that deceived and disrespected my true partner, Barbara. And in turn, I also highly regret that I hurt both of you. And I'm grateful that my distorted behavior is forever over. By the grace of God, one could add, if they have a faith base never to return. I wish both of you well. And the husband now finally turns to his rightful bride, Barbara. Taking her, looking at her in the eyes, he says something like the following. You are my beloved wife, the person who God gave me assign me previously, I betrayed you and broke your heart. I will never betray you again. Rather, I will always hold you up in the way that I can. As in the way that I can as my exclusive bride. You are the one appointed and so on and so forth. And with your per now dance I am wind in his feet went on. And that's what I'm doing. And with your permission, I would like to give you a gift. It's a bracelet that highlights a heart. This represents my heart that is now new and now has a rightful and sincere commitment to be with you in my full breath. May I give you. And then permission. May I give you a hug or a kiss or a. May I take your hand? And then with that hand, with that gentle gesture, perhaps kissing her on the forehead and slowly turning around to go to dinner or a scenic view or. Why slowly? Well, that's my formula and that's my suggested scenario. And we'll pause there to comment on that much so far. Dr. Skinner.

You know, one of the things that you're describing, Acosta, is a new way of healing. Taking the that process to another level.

Right.

Because we often we've heard going through disclosures, but you're talking about the symbolism. You're talking about going Into, I'm going to say, a difficult environment and claiming that area and acknowledging the wounds, the pains, the hurts, a reparations process, a way to make amends. And, and if I even add to that a little bit, there are many times that we ignore, I don't know, this fictitious place that you called. What was it called?

Sleepy Bluff, Ocean Bluff, Something, you know.

Yes. Okay. So. So whatever this place is, the. The demons, the places that have been unresolved. This. I can't go here. We can't go here because it's too triggering. And, and what you did intentionally there is actually go into that, which would be what we would refer to as exposure therapy with a very specific intent, purpose, with a reparations or making amends process. Saying things out loud, the whole process there is, is. Is this acknowledgment. This is my beloved. This is the person. And. And again, I think couples need to be in a place of healing and they need to have worked on a lot of healing and recovery as a part of their journey. But boy, those moments, those moments that would be in a powerful moment if a couple was in the mental space where they could do that.

Where they could do that. Yes. And so that's not day number one. But if we could prepare a couple to actually, by the way, suppose the wife, the bride, unlikely at that moment. But you know, our goal, our hope of the fruit would be that she could actually regain claim to the ability to return to this place and. And have a freshness to be able. What if she spotted. I like to prepare couples for the worst scenario. What if she spotted that woman in that. Because that's her. What if she did? What if she did? Well, I haven't thought about that. I would want her to consider that even before she goes to do that ritual. Now, she's not going to be prepared for that on day number one. That is going to overwhelm her, of course. But imagine if we prepare these things within a safe place in a therapeutic setting where she could say something like the following. And she's prepared for it. She wouldn't be able to capture this herself, probably. But what if it was something like this? Hello. I believe you are Mrs. So and so. My husband was looking for you. He sought to have the opportunity to let you know that he is in his right mind now. So as he is committed forever to me and he. And so he wishes you and your husband well, and so do I. And then she slowly turns away. That may need some practice. But imagine if she came to that point, why slowly turn away? Why slowly turn away? I'm suggesting that that's a symbol of the opposite of, we did it. We got it over with. Hurry up. Anxiety. We slowly turn away with a deep breath, meaning we are in our right minds and we don't need to rush. We can walk off in peace. Wow.

You know, I know that this would take a lot of mental work by both partners. Right. The person who was the offending person. The ability to be in that space requires work. And yet those who would be willing to do that would be sending one of the more powerful messages. Again, we're talking about the affirming and healing balm of acknowledgment. Acknowledging the wounds, leaning into it, and being able to say, I did hurt you. I can acknowledge the pain, and yet the acknowledgment of this relationship. This is what I want. You are what I want. How did you say that in Greek, what you say to your wife? Say it one more time.

Oh, in my. In Greek, I'm going to say, I'm your bride. I'm your bridegroom. You are my bride. Yes.

Reclaiming what matters the most.

I have a final comment on this scenario. Yeah, that is this. It's. It's a. It's a true scenario. And with my good client that the. The bride, the. The wife. When I did share this idea with her in the first session, I said that I did it separately with her. When I shared this with I. This idea with her, Kevin's doctor, Kevin and I. And I went through this scenario with her. I said at first, her body language spoke at the end of the session. Now, I mentioned that. I didn't mention, but as a matter of fact, I know that in this session, as I spoke to her, her husband happened to be away on that day on business, and she was home alone. And I knew that. So when I spoke this example or idea for her, by the end of session, there was an entirely different energy from her. Instead of being, you know, very intense and stiff and gut wrenching appearance, I could find energy. I could see a certain energy, a certain hope and positive. And she said this to me. Her last word to me was, shit, Costa, I'm going to go now and I'm going to look up the farewell scenes of Dancings with Wolf. I'm going to watch the movie tonight. Said goodbye.

As she slowly turned away.

And she slowly turned away. As she slowly turned away. We all need. We all need a healthy acknowledgment. You know, my wife and I noticed something. We, we often walk together, and we, we used to live in this very busy street with lots of dogs in, in the neighborhood, in these sort of big, beautiful houses that had dogs. And I noticed that if you walk past a house that has a dog and a lot of the. It was, what do you call those electric, you know, digital fences where you don't really see the fence, but the dogs are trained right? Well, I'd walk by and I would notice that if I walk by the dog and it's barking, what does the dog want more than anything?

Attention.

A little respect. A little attention. So if I walk past the dog and I say, good dog, you're doing your job. You're a good watchdog, it's likely to bark a little bit more. But the bark is kind of like, yeah, it's kind of like saying, yeah, don't come back here again now. And it's like doing its job. But I, I, I did something which probably was a little bit mean. One day I walked past the dogs and I ignore them, just walk straight through to see what they would do. And I found that those dogs seemed awfully frustrated. It's almost like, am I invisible or something, pal? Don't you see me barking? And I, I think even dogs and, and, and, and animals probably teach us. They, they now dogs, I, I think they're like, there aren't dogs like Wind in His Hair. Don't dogs treat us like that kind of emote? I don't have dog or not to exclude cats, but I don't know if cats do that. But dogs treat us that way, I think, because the.

Again, it's the concept of attention. It's acknowledgment. It's. I'm the presence. We as humans long for people to acknowledge us. I see you. I see. Yeah. All right, so that's example number one. Dances With Wolves. Great example here. What is next on your mind about this concept of acknowledgment?

Okay. I have one other main scenario or example that I want to kind of draw this theme out in terms of letting us know how important it is and how the absence of it can hurt so much, and even a consideration of how we might experience the healing balm when it wasn't given to us. So my second scenario that I'd like to. Additional scenario here, Dr. Skinner, involves a client that I had that told me a painful story that when he was about 20 years old, now, his parents were divorced, you know, about 16 years old, but he, and he's now about 20 years old, his father had a retirement party and he worked in a. In a. In a busy emergency care place corporation where he was. Worked long hours and was seldom home. And as he put it, I never saw dad. So that's the context here. But now dad is having a retirement party, and the whole family is invited, and son follows suit. He comes to the retirement party and he's there, and it was at a restaurant that had a long bar to it. And at one point, dad is. Dad is at the. At the bar and with his friends, kind of hoovered. And son decides to kind of straddle over there. And he's going to the bar and his dad is drinking with his friends there. Dad stops and he turns around to his son to introduce his son. And now the son is awkward already because he doesn't know anybody and he doesn't even hardly know his father. But this. The father now has an opportunity to acknowledge his son. He has an opportunity to his friends, his peers to acknowledge his son. And how does he use that opportunity? He turns to his son, who's approaching the bar, points to him, so that all attention is now going to his son. And how does he acknowledge his son, if we want to call it that? He says, I can't even be as explicit as he said it, Dr. Skinner. But he said, in essence, his father said, hey, do you guys know my son? He gets more sex than any that I would know what to do with. Laughter, laughter, laughter. Except when he made that comment, my son gets more sex. He put it a little bit more graphic than that. Now, I asked the son, what did that make you feel like? And his son, this adult, now adult man, asked me, you know, much later, adult man. His answer to me, when I asked him what that made him feel like, he said, well, I. How would you know, Dad? I didn't even. I, you know, he told me, and as he's processing this, how would you know what I feel like, dad? You don't even know me. Now, notice his answer, my question was, how did you feel? And what he gave me was cognitive answer, how would you know, dad? You don't even know me. That expresses a little bit. But I asked him a little bit more clearly, how did that make you feel when dad acknowledged you in that way, said things like embarrassed, awkward, frustrated, embarrassed. So that's his experience of a giant letdown.

And so in that situation, what do you do to help that individual who. The acknowledgment was almost a. I'm bragging on my Son here, right, this. I'm bragging, but his son's having a completely different experience.

Yeah, it is a, it is a. It is a. In his own way. That's an Interesting comment, Dr. Skinner. In. In essence, I'm bragging on my child. Could we perhaps also surmise that the bragging is really my own self centered kind of.

Look at me. Yeah, look at me. Look what my son's doing.

Yeah. And, and look how I can get my friends to kind of laugh at the expense of my son. Now we'll make my son an object of something interesting.

Yes.

So it's, it's. It's a very sad moment for that son. Now, I do not expect a young man, even 20 years old. I, you know, I don't really expect a, a young man to necessarily do a perfect. I know what to do. He didn't know what to do and he did nothing. He just kind of waited until it was over. But now you're left with that experience that dad embarrassed me. Dad made me feel everything negative and embarrassed me. And everybody who was laughing were laughing at me. And that's as much as dad's got to say about me. So I invited this man to consider the same scenario, to identify what happened and what should have happened. Not only what happened, but in a safe place with me. A safe place where he can take his time and it might take time to think out what would have benefited him. What would he have wanted to have heard from his father? That's an important question. We know. What did. What would you have wanted to hear? You know, that was a very difficult question, Dr. Skinner. It was hard for him to even imagine what dad should have said or might have.

The alternative.

Yes, the alternative. It was very difficult for him to imagine what dad should have said. How dad could have claimed it in that reality. Dad, you don't know me, but what could you have said to make it something about me? Dad, he had a very difficult time. No, every time we kind of went with that question, he would. He would talk about other disappointments or other things. And so that was a different difficult question. One of a few questions here, but I suggest. So I, I made the suggestion to him because it was difficult for him, but it was only a suggestion and he listened. So my suggestion was something like this, even for him to write it out. What if dad would have said something like this? Hello, son. Come here a minute. I want to introduce you to my friends, my friends to you, everybody. This is my son, so. And so. He's my Oldest son, and more than he realizes, he inspires me. And whatever goodness he has, he gets it from his own hard work, from his good mother. I've been woefully absent, like I'm always working, and that's not fair to him. So, yes, in my retirement party, I'm saying to you, younger co workers, don't do what I did. Don't do what I did. And I'm suggesting in my. He's looking at them, intentionally looking at his son, looking at his friends. Don't do what I did. I was faithful to my work, but not to my family. Be faithful to your work and make some time for your son, because I didn't and I don't know him and I regret that. And, son, I want you to hear that and take it where will. But I'm hoping we can pick up from here. But I wish that I didn't neglect that.

Wow. And what does his son say to that? Right? What. What does he feel right? There's an open acknowledgment that I wasn't there. Now, what I would probably say is the next few days and weeks and months is where the rubber meets the road. He can do that publicly. But now after that, it's a followup. Hey, son. What I said, I meant beautiful.

Beautiful. Because if there's no follow up, we're just sort of at the same spot. Yes. And it does start. But there's a public acknowledgment in some way, this is my son. I've neglected him. Oh, that's different. But there. There's a couple of other shades to this. How might the other men. Because you know what they did? They laughed. They were part of the complicit embarrassment of the son. I want my client, my man, to imagine. What should have those other men done? How could they have responded? Possibly. What might they have done to also to acknowledge the son in some way as a human being other than just somebody who's being embarrassed by his father. That was easier for him to answer.

Now, what did he say?

He said, how about something like this? Let's just pretend the father's name is Fred. We can make it more elaborate. Hey, Fred, is that all you got from your son? I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than that. Or, hey, Fred, really, That's your own son? That's your son? That's all you got for him? There's something missing here. Hey, Fred, what would your wife say? Would she have. Would she choose something more otherwise, more appropriate? Hey, Fred, not cool. That's hard for friends to do that. Yeah.

Of course, in a social situation like that, we laugh. And, and in some people, that. That makes them comfortable because that's what their life has been right now.

I would say there's two more con. Two more shades here. One is this. Hey, my client, I'm asking him, how might you have responded with that same scenario in the bar? 20 years old, you're pretty young, you don't really know what to say to something that embarrassing. But now you're not 20 years old anymore. So in a safe place, I wonder if we could think out how might you respond differently in that situation instead of feeling helpless, how could you go back there and respond to that situation now?

Yeah. And what might come up.

What might come up now, that's. That's pretty hard. But I think I'm thinking that's important for him in every situation. I am not helpless, but I was helpless, but I'm not now.

So there's a point there. You just said it. Right? Going from a res. Unresolved memory, an unresolved issue. Right. Because clearly our clients don't bring up issues similar to that. They don't bring up issues unless there's some pain point. And what you describe there, some people might say, is mental rehearsal, thinking through, replaying it in a different. With a different outcome, in an attempt to repair the wound that is still sitting there unresolved.

So I'm going to comment directly on that in one second, if I, If I may, I'm going to suggest that what could that son say at that moment? What if it was something like this? What if he were to go into that bar and similar to that, slowly turn around? What if he would slowly take a deep breath to symbolize. Okay, first of all, I'm catching my physical breath here because I'm very embarrassed. But instead of cowering and, and naturally recoiling, I'm going to take an intentional breath and I'm going to look at my father and I'm going to look at his friends. I'm going to look at my father, and I'm going to look at his friends and I'm going to ask some questions, such as, gentlemen, what do you. What do you feel? What do you think from my father's comment? And I'm going to look at them, and I might even ask, what do you think your wives would think of his comment?

Well, that would, that would, that would be. I think they'd all probably put their heads down.

I think. So now I I. If I am going to ask that I would prefer. Ideally, I want to. That's why the deep breath, you know, I'm. Because it's not about my anger as much as I might feel anger, but it's about my. My composure, my ability to respond to whatever's there. So I know that's a little bit of a sidetrack from the theme of acknowledgment. But in order to do that, in order to get back to acknowledgment, it's. This is all. So finally I'm going to suggest this, and then I'd like to Hear your comments, Dr. Skinner. The other aspect of this is. So he asked, what could the father have said? What could you have said to the father? What could you have said to the friends? But there's one more. If we were to imagine, if. If that father is still alive today, what could that father do now? He did. We know what he did then. His kids, 20. What could that father do now? His old age? Anything. How could he acknowledge his son now? That's my question, you know, and I.

I think there's the three or four things that just come to my mind. Many times I've heard stories, as people get older, they have regrets. And it was. It wouldn't just be that specific scenario. It would be how many times I missed a baseball game or how many times I missed a play or how many times I was not there because of my focus on work. I'm just providing for the family. Now I get older and I start realizing the things I missed then I'll never get that time back. And I think a lot of times people stay in a mindset of I don't know how to repair. I'm embarrassed, I'm ashamed, I'm scared to repair. What if they reject it? You don't know. If you don't ask, you don't know. If you don't talk about it, you don't know. At least set the thing in emotion that healing could be a possibility.

Yes, exactly. So let's suppose that that father is still alive and is still able. Let's just suppose that he's turning and somehow, you know, those old moments. I'm old enough to know now that those old moments, they come back to people. Even in their old age, there's still unresolved things that even come back to people who are very old, right? Yeah, for sure. Let's suppose that father actually was. Had an openness to say, well, take the. Our title, the healing balm of Acknowledgment. I take that, Dr. Skinner, to mean the healing that takes place. The balm of acknowledgment is not only for the recipient, but it's also the healing balm of the giver. So what if that father now had an. Had a mind, perhaps with support. Perhaps was the suggestion. Nothing I can do. Actually. What if. Because we need imagination. Imagination is a gift from Imagine. Rocks don't imagine. We do. It's a gift from Almighty God. We can imagine. We can fantasize, which is a distorted use of imagination. But imagination can also create a path to love. So what if I were to imagine the following? What if I were to imagine. What if that old man were to imagine a new party, a new gathering that he initiates where he invites his. The same peers, the same people to look them up, to do the work, to say, will you come to my house? Because I want to invite my son to come to my house in order to redo some business that I have yet to do. What if he were to do that? And I would check with the friends first, because even if the son were not willing to come, just like you told me, you taught me the other day, Dr. Skinner, that if a partner is. If a. If a betrayed partner is not willing to hear a disclosure, a newness, a realness, that person who betrayed, that person who created a breaking of heart is still in need of offering that voice. So what if that man has that party even if his son is not willing to come and he corrects his voice for his friends, even if his son is not willing to come, but if his son is willing to come and encourage him and request of him to come to a party for the specific purpose that that father could redo his introduction of his son to reintroduce my son. It's not what I said. I've caught up with myself. I want to introduce him to a new way. This is my flesh and blood. This is my son. He's the son that he's going to find a new. A new avenue. If he can get that far, he'll find something.

Ah, you know what's so powerful about that is so many times we don't know how to repair very well. So, Costa, today, thank you for your time in this podcast where we're talking about real examples, deep examples of the work that could be done to take Chip and Dan Heath wrote a book called the Power of Moments. And what you are giving us today are example or examples of how to take some of these painful Difficult life experiences and intentionally creating moments where real reparations, real repair can take place.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's fantastic. All right, KOSA Time limited today. Final thoughts that you have for our audience. Things that you'd like to just say. Hey, you know, we've been talking about this concept of the affirming and the healing balm of acknowledgment. Any final thoughts you'd like to give to our listeners?

Thanks for the opportunity. Yeah. I will close with a one minute kind of medley of maybe applying this theme instead of lengthy scenarios, maybe to just everyday kind of quick ideas that come to my mind. You know, if I'm at a social gathering and I introduce my. I have an opportunity to introduce really anybody. But certainly if we say my spouse. How do I introduce my spouse? Oh, you guys never met. Yeah, this is my wife, Maria. Well, let's say that's option A, that's data. How about option B? Hey, John, I'd like to introduce you to my wife. You get the point? That's one idea.

Just a small energy I'd like to introduce you to. This is my wife. This is my son. This is me. This is a part of me, and I'm a part of them.

Yeah. And finally, I'm gonna be that wind in his hair. Even in something as simple as the first moment that I have the opportunity to greet, to acknowledge my spouse in the morning. Well, we're going about our business. Hey, what time is. Hey, you know, get the coffee. What's my very first response to my wife? Is it data? Is it let's get the show on the road? Or is it wind at his hair? Good morning, my bride with a smile. And the rest will find a place.

Great examples, you know, if you want to have more intimate, deep relationships, We've talked about things that you can do. The choice will always be ours. Yours, mine, all of us, we always have a choice. How intimate human of human beings will we be? We have that choice every day. Every day, you, me, we all can choose to be more intimate humans. So my invitation. Be the human that chooses to see. You are my friend. Costa. You are my friend. And I thank you, Dr. Skinner.

It's my. My privilege to have you be my. You're my mentor and you're my friend.

Well, thank you, thank you. Thank you to our listeners. I hope that from this you have some insights and awarenesses that can take your human intimacy to the next level. Costa, thank you again very much.

Thank you.