The Anatomy of a Sincere Apology (Episode #18)

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Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something's around you.

Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner with my co host and friend, Amy Andrus. Amy, how are you today?

I'm doing fantastic. The sun is shining, getting ready to go spend time with my kids. After this, life couldn't be better.

Ah, this time of the year, the sun, the leaves, the green. It's absolutely beautiful.

Yes.

All right, to our listeners, today's topic is going to be one that is probably one of the more important skills that we could all learn in all of our relationships, especially if we want to have close ones because we're going to hurt each other, we're going to do something that is offensive in some way. Again, it doesn't really matter. We live in this world. We make mistakes, some of them bigger than others. So our topic is the anatomy of a sincere apology. So Amy, where do you want to start with this topic?

Well, I really appreciate you, you saying the word skill because when I was married in 1996, the officiator said, I want to tell you the mo. The two most important words that you need throughout your marriage and you need to remember that to say I'm sorry. And we, we heard that and we, we both would say it so frequently. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But didn't know the skill of even how to, to offer an apology to, to do it well. And then it's a skill that is not taught well.

Not only is it not taught, but sometimes we think if I acknowledge fault, then there's something wrong with me. And I think if we really were to step back and say, I'M going to make mistakes. I'm not perfect. And. And at the same time, I'm going to strive to be better. But how often do we work with individuals where there has been maybe egregious, especially with infidelity and sexual betrayal, one of the common things that we deal with. We often see individuals who come to us and they're like, I did say I'm sorry. I said I'm sorry. And my spouse that it's like they don't care.

Right. And as you have pointed out, how many times do we just say, okay, I'm sorry, and we don't know what we're really saying I'm sorry for and when it's used because we don't know what to say. So it's just I'm sorry, which I.

Say is a cop out. Right. If. If you find yourself saying I'm sorry, I hope that after this podcast you're going to have a whole new way of looking at this language of I'm sorry. Because it has been my experience that when we, especially in our work, we have people say, I told my partner I was sorry.

Yeah.

And then we stop and we break down sorry. And I will ask this question, so what are you actually sorry for? Now we got a different dialogue. Right?

Yep. And I love the chapter of your book. Right?

Yeah. So what she's referring to there, my book, rebuild your relationship after sexual betrayal, I have a whole chapter on there, is titled why I'm sorry isn't working.

Right.

And. And the reason why is because many times as we work with people who've consistently hurt their partner through some form of betrayal. Doesn't have to be sexual, but just it's some kind of hurt if I continually say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My challenge, and it's actually in this book, what I'm saying is try to apologize when without using the word I'm. Words I'm sorry. Try it. Just try to say what you are sorry for, but don't say I'm sorry. It is such a fascinating conversation when I have couples do that in my office and they sometimes they can't. I don't know how to do this. I don't know what even to say.

Right. I. I have been able to, to be with you in a lot of those scenarios where you're saying, all right, remove those words that exercise I'm sorry. And they're stunned. They don't know. They don't know what to say.

Well, and, and part of it's because we really don't know what to say because we think I'm sorry. But then if we break down, and that's what I want to do today is I want to break down what a real sincere apology actually looks like. Because interestingly enough, it's not a one time event. And that's also a mistake that is often made when we work with individuals. I said I was sorry. What else do you want? Right. And when there has been betrayal. I love the way that Janice Abram Spring talks about it in her book how can I Forgive you? She talks about four types of forgiveness. And I'm gonna go through those just real quick because I think it fits perfectly with what we're talking about. She titled the first one cheap forgiveness. And, and what she really means there is you just move on. You don't really talk about the details, you don't talk about anything that's occurred and just say, oh, I forgive you. And cheap forgiveness then is, is it can be expected from the person who has hurt the other person or it's the person who's been hurt and they're like, oh no, you know, I, I know you didn't mean to, you were tired or whatever. So cheap forgiveness, we aren't looking at the details, what happened, why it happened, we're just, just moving on. And sometimes that may be productive, but generally speaking, cheap forgiveness doesn't change behavior that's hurtful or harmful.

Well, and that can be a form of I'm avoidant and I don't even want to get into it. And so I'll just take, yeah, I, I'll just gloss over. Yeah, right. I like that. Cheap forgiveness.

Yeah, Cheap forgiveness. Second, she refers to his refusal to forgive. And it's not necessarily forgiveness, but I refuse to forgive. And so I punish and I punish and I punish. And no matter what you do, I still have this one upmanship because I, you hurt me and so I continually hurt you or punish you because you hurt me. And, and that's where we get into a person who's kind of silent and they, they, yes, they've hurt them, but they do it in kind of a passive aggressive way. And then the person who refuses to forgive just carries that angst inside of them. I've seen people who, for the rest of their lives after some kind of hurt that they punish the other person, they punish the other person. So refusal to forgive is what she refers to a second time, which really isn't forgiveness at all.

And we used to, you know, besides presidential time we would call that a trump card. And holding onto that trump card is so damaging for you or the other person, for the relationship.

Yeah. Because you did this. Here's the trump card. And no matter what you do, I play that card. I play that card. I play that card. And then again, that doesn't really help with the healing of the relationship.

Right.

The third type she talks about is called acceptance. And it's not that you're accepting the behavior. You've come to an acceptance within yourself that the behavior actually occurred. And now my forgiveness is. Is. I'm not going to carry the burden of your behaviors on me. It's. I'm not going to let it dictate or influence me from an emotional perspective. I feel I might feel some hurt and pain, but I've come to grips. This occurred. And so the acceptance is, I've accepted this has occurred. I may or may not have a good relationship with you.

Right.

But I've come to. I've come to the point of I can forgive you even though I may not have a relationship with you.

So acceptance, acceptance, where it's. I accept, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm moving forward in the relationship. I can accept the grievance. I can accept. Yes, yes.

And that's really an important distinction because sometimes when we in our field, we often say, well, you're never going to forgive me. I add, because you won't come closer to me or you won't connect with me. And I can. I forgive and choose not to have a relationship with this person. And that's a very important distinction because the inability to forgive is within me. It influences my emotions. It influences how I see the world. My capacity to forgive is really about me and my healing.

It's the space. It's also like you're saying, occupying within you and holding on to that. It's being able to let go without saying it's okay, or it's cheap, or it's. It's because it's not okay.

Right, Right. And so that's the acceptance. And again, in some situations, it may be with a deceased parent or somebody who's hurt you. And I've come to the acceptance that I'm never going to get closure from you in this situation, because you can't. You can't say, I'm sorry because you're no longer with us.

And that's where Harriet Lerner would say, there are times when you don't necessarily need to forgive, saying that's okay in the traditional sense, but letting Go, yes, yes, I got.

That's right. And then the fourth is what she calls genuine forgiveness. And it is truly a dance between two people. And if I was to go through a scenario in our field with sexual betrayal, the person who is offended is working to make amends and the betrayed partner is triggered. And, and they do a dance now of I've been triggered. And the betraying person, instead of becoming defensive, instead of being angry, instead of, you're never going to get over this, they in a more humble way acknowledge the pain that they've created and acknowledge that is wrong, what I did, and you didn't deserve that. And, and, and it's a consistent dance. It's not a one effort. Both parties have to be engaged in this process. And when both parties are engaging it, I'm not using that trump card, as you said. And I'm. And I'm not giving cheap forgiveness. I'm acknowledging when the trigger comes or I'm hurt and you're able to respond. And, and it actually goes both ways. There gets to be the point where sometimes even the betrayed partner can acknowledge, you know, there are times that I wasn't there and I wasn't available for you, or I was angry and, and we come to this place where we're both acknowledging there's things I could have done better.

Right. Yes. And it's. That takes a lot. It takes, that takes a lot of work in all of our relationships to be able to put aside our wanting to be right and be vulnerable with. Without being becoming defensive and really examining our own, our own stuff and the ways that we didn't show up in the ways that we want to show up.

Yeah. And when we understand that, then we ourselves recognize I, I can be a better person.

Yeah.

Right. And, and again, if again, betrayal, the person who's acted out has more onus or responsibility to repair the relationship. Not. Nevertheless, it takes two partners to heal because that means I have to. I. If I'm the betrayed, I have to be willing to open my heart again to this person who has hurt me. And, and usually that occurs through them making, working to make amends. And, but it also means that my heart is going to take the risk with you again.

Right.

And that's hard to do.

It's. It's really hard. And we talk about on this podcast in, in all of our relationships. I'm even, I mean, I'm thinking of parent, child, and, and it's, it's hard doing this. The work of, of a, of a sincere apology and really Examining without defensiveness and perspective, taking and, and owning your part and, and, and making commitments that you'll show up better and having a plan for how you will show up better. That's a lot of work and it's really, really difficult.

And if we take it in, it's going to be hard. Usually I have to work through my own shame. So I'm not hearing you just attacking me. I can understand my behavior has triggered pain in another person.

Right.

I love the book A Good Apology by Molly Howes. This is a book that I think really gets as a solid foundation for understanding this process. But here's what she suggests. She said, first of all, it includes taking full responsibility. And in other words, she's really saying I have to take responsibility, but I also have to acknowledge how I hurt you. In other words, I have to understand how I hurt you.

Right, right.

Contrast that for just a second for the person who says I'm sorry. In contrast with understanding. Help me understand what you have been experiencing hurt and the pain. Go ahead. What were you going to say?

Well, I've just, I've just, you know, had the privilege of being with you in those intensives where you do that exercise of removing those words I'm sorry and owning I hurt you, and some of those. If you could give some of those examp examples to the listeners of what that looks like.

Well, if I, and if I do, let me just put it in context. We've done a lot of work to get to this point because more often than not, we, in our culture, we're taught to say I'm sorry.

Yep.

And so that first part of saying I'm sorry, while that's easy, if we break it down and I say, okay, I want you to take five minutes and I want you to write down what you are sorry for.

Right. And that's what I mean. When I went back to the wedding, like, saying I'm sorry, you start to just say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. We don't even know what the behavior is that we're, that we're apologizing for.

And so then you start to hear this story of I'm sorry that I lied to you. I'm sorry that I made you feel like you weren't good enough. I'm sorry that my behaviors have made it so you can't sleep at night, and I'm sorry that you get triggered when we go out in public and now, now notice that I'm right. I recognize that because of My actions. It's hard for you to trust others. So now I'm understanding. And really what Molly talks about in her book is the first real step is to understand the pain that you have created in your actions.

Right.

And if I can then understand then.

Right.

I can acknowledge and I can express genuine remorse because I've felt your pain. Contrasting that with I'm sorry. I don't know how you feel about that. I'm sorry for what I'm. And then I don't. I can't make sense of it. So we cheapen the word I'm sorry in contrast with really making it meaningful.

So I love your exercise of strip away the words I'm sorry and try to find different words.

Yeah. And when we do that, then they start to find words like, I was wrong and I hurt you. What happened was my responsibility. And I realized that it made you feel like you were not important to me or you didn't matter, and that was wrong of me. And again, it takes time and. Oh, it takes to get to that.

Point because it's so difficult with defensiveness and shame to get to the space to be able to hear the pain of and. And be able to say like, I. I did this and I was wrong.

And I want to put it in another scenario for a second because Molly Howes talks about it in this thing when we say I'm sorry. One of the core things that we make a mistake with, maybe that's what I'll say is some of the common mistakes. We. We just assume that if I say I'm sorry, that the onus is now on you.

Right.

To forgive. To forgive.

It's like, it's like kids, like, oh, now it's black eye. Right.

Yeah, I'm sorry. Now I've.

Right.

I've deflected it back. So this process of slowing this discussion down is really important for the healing process. That's really what part of an emotional. What we call an emotional restitution. Disclosure. If I. If I've done something, I've lied to you, I' deceived you, I've. I've hit. Hurt you in some way. The power of that is it requires me to slow down, understand how I've hurt you, acknowledge how I've hurt you, and then I seek amends, and then I acknowledge. Is this something that you can take and. And give me a chance to regain your trust?

And I know your listeners are. Because I've been the betrayed partner. And you hear. You know, what you really want to hear is as you say, like, I deeply regret and I feel so badly that I have hurt you. And I know that the women listening are like, oh, if he could just say that. Right.

Yeah. And what's interesting there, and let me just say this. I. I can work with individuals to get them to the point where they can say it, but there is also the difference between the people who've paid the price to genuinely have that empathy and compassion. And it feels genuine. It is something that. It's hard to describe, but, but usually, and I got to be very. This is really important here. The first or second time you do this, if you're listening and you're saying, okay, I'm going to try this. Here's, here's the thing. Your partner might get angry at you.

Yeah.

Why are you doing it now? You're just doing what that Dr. Skinner and Amy said that you should do. And, and, and why are you doing it? And that is normal. That's wave one. It's because I now imagine this. It's because I want to do this better because I didn't do it well in the past. More genuine. Right? Yeah. But why now? Right. If you, if you really cared, you wouldn't have done it in the first place. You know, you're right. I made so many mistakes, and you didn't deserve that. And you see, now we're going through multiple waves of this because you finally acknowledge that you're almost safe enough that I can be authentic and real and yell and scream, and we have to withstand that. And that's what most people can't do. And that's what we do when we come to intensives, is we teach people how to do that and stay authentic with those experiences.

And, and I will say, I don't know. Have I been working with you now?

11.

Most of the time, when you create that, that space of. They're looking at one another, they're feeling one another, we're stripping away that defensiveness and that holding that space, and you help them find those words, they're there because they still are in it. They, they want to hear the words. When you. I think, I think like you've said, when, when you don't even care to hear the words, when you're apathetic.

We're in the most risky, dangerous sign of the relationship. That's right. So again, it's not just hearing the words. It's how do I get my, my place in my heart if I've done the offending, if I've hurt you, how do I Understand your pain without going into my shame. And that. And that's a very important transition where I'm. If I can withstand it, not going to the shame place, then I can be with you in your pain. There's plenty of research that shows when our shame is elevated, our empathy is low.

Right.

So in order for us to get to this place where we can have a genuine apology, we do need to stop our behavior. We also need to address our shame so we can be present with the people that we've hurt. Pain.

And it's tricky, and it's doable, and it's a skill set that can be learned.

And not only is it a skill set, it is required of all of us to learn how.

Yes.

Because we. If you're perfect and you've never hurt anybody in your life, would you send me? No, I guarantee you I have. But. But the reality is, if. If you have, just send me a message. Questions? Human intimacy.com, i love to interview you because I've never. Right. Because we do. We hurt each other. We say things the wrong way. We. Because we're human beings, we're tired. We're. We're not perfect. We. We do things and make mistakes. The question is, do we have enough insight and awareness to say, my behaviors. That was inappropriate, that wasn't right.

And unfortunately, we hurt the people that tend to be the very, very, very closest to us.

That's right.

Our children, our. Our families are extended. Those are the people. Because we. We tend to hurt the people that we love the most. And that's where it's the most critical, whether as mothers with children or spouses, that we really learn how to walk through doing an apology really well and understanding the elements of it.

Yeah. And here's the thing. You said it, and we said it in the beginning. It's a skill. It's learned. It's not inherited. The capacity to acknowledge and look in the mirror and say, are there things that I can do better to be in this relationship, to show up, to be present? Can I do that?

And. And I'm mentioning motherhood a lot here because, you know, the spousal relationship, I don't have that right now. But as a mom, how many times I really need to show up in a way that I'm hearing their pain and acknowledging the ways that I haven't shown up in the way I need to, and that's hard.

And then to come back and say, you know, I didn't handle that very well, or can you give me a. Do over here. Because what I said was not right, or, you know what? I was distracted and I forgot the capacity in all of us to come back and in humility and humbleness, say that I, I'm. I. I am sorry.

Right, Right.

That what I did in that situation, that should not have happened, that requires all of us to be mature enough to say, I am sorry.

Right, Right.

So I want to talk a little bit about this concept of a culture of apology. And what I'm really saying here is the culture of apology is my ability to say, we. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay for us to learn and, and then to grow from them. Now, if I continually repeat the same mistake and I'm not progressing and saying, you know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Right. I'm not doing this, then I need to work more on getting structured to change my behavior.

Right, Right.

Because then it. The. It really needs to be the onus on me. Because if I'm. If I'm doing all this, but I'm just expecting, I. I'm saying it the right way, why can't you forgive me? There has to be this progression out of whatever unhealthy behavior that I'm engaging in. Otherwise, then I'm just continually asking you to move on with me. But I'm not making the change of behavior that has been hurting you.

Right. So can you give us an example of that?

Well, I can. Let me just share a story from a case recently where somebody. We were talking with, somebody and their partner had continually been acting out, viewing pornography. And, and it was hurtful to the partner. She. She did not want pornography in their home. And, you know, there was a long history in his background, and so he was striving at times to overcome and stop the unwanted use of pornography. And, and they both agree that they didn't want that in their life. But every time that there would be a relapse, lapse, he would come back and he would apologize in. In that way. You know, I, I did this, and I know it's hurtful to you, but he wasn't creating structure to change the behavior. There wasn't accountability. There wasn't. There wasn't an awareness of, I can't be in this environment and not be vulnerable. So there wasn't enough structure. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. So changing the behavior is a part of this journey. And to continuously ask for you to move on with me without changing my behavior, that's not fair to you.

Right. Or the us. You know, if it's just, okay, we're going to keep going through this, but we don't have. We don't have a plan for what are we going to do differently. And, you know, having that, like, as you say, that structure and a plan for what are we going to do differently? Or else we're just going to continually hurt each other. And where's the fun in that? Right.

And. And what's interesting about this is when we start to have the language, when we start to understand each other, we begin to see each other on a deeper level. I understand that you are gaining awareness into how your actions influence me and how my actions influence you. So we begin to see each other in a more authentic way. And I begin to feel you because you're, you're able to say, I am. I acknowledge that when I do this and when I did that, that was wrong.

Right.

And if I do that, then you start to see how I feel. If I can't see how you feel, Amy. And again, going back to the challenge of just saying I'm sorry, if I don't understand how you feel about something, then I'm left to my interpretation.

Again, what are you sorry for? What is the behavior? I don't know how you're feeling about this. Right?

Yeah. And then I'm. If I'm guessing and you've really hurt me deeply, then I'm going to assume that you really don't understand me. And how many times have we heard people say, I don't feel my partner understands me?

I know, and I believe most of the time they want to, they just don't know how.

Right. And that they do want to. But. But I'm afraid that if I show that, then you're going to be angry at me and you're going to be angry at me. And that's why I said we have to learn how to go through these waves by consistency. And that's what I believe Janice Abram Spring is talking about in her book How Can I Forgive you? Is that genuine forgiveness is. I understand that this may take a period of time for me to regain your trust, because where I've been has not been working.

Right.

All right, so a couple tips that I just want to leave with everybody. First and foremost, pause and reflect on if you've hurt somebody. Pause and reflect on what those actions have done to you and to them. Write it down. Try to understand your partner's perspective or the person's perspective, your child's or whoever you've offended. Try to genuinely understand them. That's what Molly Howells would say in our book, a good apology. Seek to understand, then acknowledge the pain. No, no. Notice two separate things I'm seeking to understand. And the second part of this is I'm under. I'm literally trying to communicate it, how it's hurt you.

And those are the skills of learning empathy. Right. Perspective taking and then recognizing the feeling and communicating the understanding of the pain. Right.

Yes. So once I've done that, then my genuine remorse is the acknowledgment of the pain I've created.

And then, as you say, communicating that and coming back within a plan of, okay, how can I do better? How can I change this?

Yes. Yes. So let me add one final part here. In every relationship, we do hurt each other.

Yep. And we will.

And that tip. That tip really is to look in the mirror. Everybody look in the mirror. And if there's people that you have angst with or problems with, look in the mirror and try to understand it from their perspective. It's a really. It's an important skill for all of us to look at.

Forever relationship. That's right. Taking.

Yeah. Final thoughts for you, Amy.

Oh, I just think the work of, you know, my identifying our shame and our deepest relationships, those are also the ones I feel like we have the most shame surrounding because we really don't want to mess it up when it comes to being a mom. We don't want to mess that up. Up when it comes to being a partner. That's. We don't want to let the people that matter most down. So those are the areas I feel like we need to do the deepest work to really understand our own feelings, our own. Like when we are defensive, to really be able to do the work, to recognize what am I. Are shame areas to be able to then examine. How do I want to show up differently in these relationships that matter the very, very, very most to me.

Yeah, I love that. How do I want to show up? And my concluding thoughts are this. We live in a culture today where we are not actually talking about how to be remorseful, how to make amends. And so we put a lot of pressure on people just to forgive us.

Right, Right.

And we use phrases like, I hope you can forgive me. I've just. Right. Why can't you forgive me? Why can't we just move on? And if. If you find yourself saying things like that, I invite you to pause for a second. Think about the person that you're saying that to. How have your actions influenced them? That's inviting you to into an empathy exercise. And once you've done that, let's take it a step further. I want you to think about what it's like feeling what they feel, and. And. And then you might have a deeper awareness and understanding of their pain. And that's where we then begin to take our communication a deeper level. Am I understanding your pain properly? That that's a really powerful way to work on an apology. And then if I'm doing that part of it, then I can acknowledge through genuine remorse the way that my behaviors have hurt you. Is that accurate? And I restate what you've said. Now we have an understanding. I've identified it then. And really, then that is the anatomy of a good apology, followed by one more thing. A consistency over time to make amends.

Right.

It's not just once.

Nope.

It's an awareness that it may take many times. Especially the deeper the wound, the longer it's going to take and the more consistency it's going to take. All right, Amy, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you to our listeners for joining us. And Amy, I know you've just been through weddings and graduations. I hope you get a breather now.

I will.

All right. Thank you to our listeners. I invite you to share this podcast with your friends, family, and other people that you think would benefit as we talk about this important topic of forgiveness. It's important for our human intimacy. It really is a skill. We hope that you will learn it and apply it in your life. One final thought. If you have not been to human intimacy dot com, please visit our site. Let us help you in many different areas. We have great courses on marriage and relationships, how to communicate. We have great courses, if you've been divorced, how to deal with difficult divorces and difficult situations. If you're dealing with making decisions, the relationship dilemma, and really making an important decision regarding your relationship. We have all these courses on human intimacy.com because our desire is to strengthen your skills so you can have and achieve the type of intimacy you long for. Thank you very much.

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