The Art of Self-Disclosure: Allowing Ourselves to be Seen (Episode #10)

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Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something surround.

Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner. Today I want to introduce you to a very fun topic and I am grateful for Amy Andrus for joining me today. Amy, how are you doing?

I'm doing fantastic. And I am so thrilled about the title of this podcast, so I'll let you introduce that.

All right. Well, before we introduce the topic, I want to just tell our listeners the questions that you are asking or we hope that you're going to be asking as you send them to questionshumanintimacy.com just know that we will get to your questions today. I will be addressing one of those questions later on, but our topic today, it's the art of self disclosure. In our last podcast, we were talking about shame. Today we're going to focus on the art of self disclosure, allowing ourselves to be seen. Amy, what are your initial thoughts on this topic? You said you liked it.

I love the title because the word art, this is, this is an art. And it is. But the beautiful thing is it is an art that everyone can learn and it is the way out of shame and to really, truly be seen, which being seen. All of our clients, all humans really, first and foremost have that primary desire to be seen by another and witnessed by another. So it's beautiful topic.

You know, it's interesting to me that we live in a culture where I think we've lost the art of, of that self in, in terms of allowing ourselves to be seen. And even if we look at a specific example, you know, we think of self disclosure as if I've done something wrong. But self disclosure could also be an Opportunity for an emotionally intimate experience.

Oh, amen. It's, you know, to witness one another. That's, that's the beauty of relationships and that's life. And unfortunately, we have lost that ability. And I, I don't know, social media, if there's this, you know, false perception that we are. Think we're being seen and we think we're being revealing ourselves to others, when really it is such a controlled revelation that it's not even, it's not even real. And so we lost that.

Yeah. And not only are we losing it, in my, in my perception and in my experience with my clients, when I ask couples, they come to the office and I ask them to go through their, their day to day interactions, how they are with each other, and I hear a lot of, on the surface level conversations, but what I don't hear are the ones where one person says, I'm really sad today and I'm not sure why. And then the partner responds back, help me understand your. What. What is it that's making you feel sad?

Okay. How often do we hear that? That's what you're talking about, Role modeling to couples? That doesn't happen.

No.

That's what we are trying to create are those, as you say, emotionally corrective experiences that we can first identify I'm feeling sad, and then communicate that to our partner without our partner feeling like they have to fix it. But just being able to see you're sad and tell me more about that. Right.

Yeah. And so now we're giving the solution in the beginning, but I want to go back to this part that, the broken part, that we aren't doing so well. Right. So that, that would be great if we could get to that point. But most of the time, in my experience, when couples seek counseling or when they're really feeling disconnected, they're not having these types of convers conversations. So if I ask you, hey, Amy, how was your day?

You would say, what are we hearing from couples?

Yeah.

Either, you know what, it's been a good day, or, oh, I just, I'm. Everything went wrong. And it's a lot of. That's, that's what I'm hearing.

So everything went wrong. And what happens? We've talked about shame and we've talked about the barriers to intimacy. What happens when I don't know how to be with your emotions?

Right.

What do we make me uncomfortable?

So what do we see from the, from the partner hearing that anxiety overwhelmed. I think their own shame. Okay. I must not be doing a good enough job as a partner that she or he is feeling so out of control and that pokes their own shame and they don't know how to sit with that.

And, and so it's what did I do wrong? Right, right. You've had a bad day. Or we get in the mindset that somehow we have to fix it.

Fix it.

And the problem with all of that is we aren't actually with the person. We're not sitting with them because we're uncomfortable. And, and then what happens is we get into a pattern where I don't dare open up to you because I'm afraid you won't be able to understand or hear what I'm actually trying to say.

So I want to just make a comment that we're using couples. But you know, I do a lot of groups with women and this is in all relationships where it's, you know, women with women and friendships or just relationships with, with family members. And it's that really not knowing how to be vulnerable with. I feel sad and others being able to sit in that space with you.

Yeah. And when I look at this from, at least from my perspective when I work with couples, I have found that many of them are. We call it the art of self disclosure, but also the ability to receive a self disclosure. Somebody who's sharing something with you and not being overwhelmed by it. So perhaps it's actually not the art of self disclosure by itself, but it's the art of being with someone who's self disclosing.

Right. Being able to sit in that self disclosure and recognize, you know, connect with the emotion underneath the experience of, of I had the worst day. And then being able to connect to the emotion underneath what they're saying and connect with that emotion and being able to communicate that understanding of that emotion.

You know, it reminds me of a story. Boy, this is. Can probably be five or six years ago doing a. An intensive couple flies in from out of state. And one of the first things that one of them says is, I. I've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder by five therapists. It's like one of them.

You love those labels so much, you know.

Now I know you're speaking with sarcasm because I, I don't, I don't really. I don't like labels. I like more of understanding.

He does not do labels, period.

More of the story, right?

Yep.

So as, as she sat there and I was listening, I said, you know, I just want to tell you up front, I'm not too concerned about whatever the label is. I'm actually more concerned about your story and how you got here today. And over the next three days, I sat and we listened, and I talked and asked questions. And after the first day, she had shared more, and her husband was almost like. He was like, what in the world happened? Because she's sharing her story and her pain, and I'm just asking questions. It's. Again, even. Even through. What at times would it be perceived as her rage and her anger? We're just. I'm there with her, and as she shares this story, by the end of the third day, she's like, this is the first time I've ever felt heard in my entire life. And her husband turned to me and said, how did you do that? And I said, you know, it's. It's not. It's not a magic pill. It's simply listening to this person, seeing them as a person, seeing their pain, their suffering, their hurt, listening to the story, how they got here. And that is a part of our society where, honestly, Amy, I really think we're doing a poor job of it.

You know, how many times throughout your work, my work, have you heard clients say, share an experience? This is the first time I have been heard or even asked the questions, or I have really felt like you see me over and over, single day, every day.

And. And so I think the part of this is, we haven't been good at hearing. We haven't been good at listening as a culture, just in general. And when we do find somebody who can actually hear us and see us and be with us without it overwhelming them, those are the people that we reflect on and say, I feel felt, using a phrase from Dan Siegel. I feel like this person understood me. How many times when we ask someone to identify a nurturer in their life, somebody who's been a nurturer, how many times do we get this place where. Or this situation where they say, I can't think of anybody.

How many times have we heard that? And it breaks every time.

Oh, it just hurts it over and over again. When we hear that, it's like, they don't have anybody. And. And then let's contrast that with the person who says, I. I. My. My grandma died or my aunt died or my. My grandpa died, or whatever that nurturer person was. And when we reflect to that relationship and we have them think about what it was that helped them feel felt, helped them be nurtured in that dynamic with them, with them, and all of a sudden, they. They get this little energy inside of them, and they're like, oh, and they start crying.

He's gonna say energy and intense emotion.

Because all of a sudden somebody hears you.

And, and what do we hear when they connect with the grandmother or, you know, recently a neighbor, that it, they're not doing a lot. You remember the intensive we just did that. It was a neighbor that was so kind that she saw me. And when they describe the nurturer, it's, it's not really big things. It's that feeling of being seen and.

The, it's, it's, it's a small and simple thing, perception wise.

Well, and the thing is, it's. It's been so wonderful to do the intensives and to work with couples and, and clients over the years, because it is my assumption that the relationships you have in your life, it's not a matter of they don't want to see you, they don't really know how. And so, you know, you're referring to that intensive with. I have borderline personality disorder and her partner just didn't know what to do with the emotion. Sitting with you, you know, for three days. It's. I want, I want to hear that I, I don't know how.

Right. And that's the part that is so rewarding in the work that we do, allowing ourselves to be seen and to see others. And, and honestly, I think that is the biggest challenge our society is facing. We see people, whether it's on Facebook or Instagram or whatever accounts, we see them in this world that we think they're in, and we're, what we're missing is what's, what's it really like being their shoes? And, and when we look at relationships in our own partner, for that matter, do we see their hardships, their suffering, their pain, and can we offer a place of comfort for them?

Well, and I, I really appreciate. Dr. Skinner always says, you guys, this is not rocket science you just used. It's not a magic pill. These are learned skills, these communication skills and slowing down and learning to touch upon your own emotions so you don't get overwhelmed by your partner or your daughters or your moms or the people in your life. And these are learned communicative skills that, and, and empathy skills that can be taught to anyone.

Right. And that's just the beauty of this. If we would pause and reflect, we can learn these skills. And yet it requires us to, to be willing to trust that others can have the best in mind for us, that they really want to be with us.

So I want to ask you a question. You Know, people come from all over the country to meet with you for three days and how many times. You know, I have never had a nurturer. How do you think you are able to sit with them so quickly and develop that, that feeling of they're safe. They. You know, I know that you're, you're talking about curiosity and hearing their story, but. But what? How do you think you create that so quickly?

Right. Well, I think there's three parts to it, and I'll just go through them real quickly. I often, I often say that until someone feels felt, they won't listen to you, they won't trust you. So I always say there's always a story. So the first part is, who is this person sitting in front of me? Now, if I was in a relationship, I'd be asking that question, who is this person? What. What are they experiencing? And honestly, I learned this many years ago when I was a very new therapist and I was working in Lincoln, Nebraska. And in Lincoln, Nebraska, they started sending me individuals who had served time in the Nebraska State Penitentiary. And this person came into my office. He had been in prison for half of his life. As I sat and listened to his story, I thought, if I had grown up in his environment, if I'd experienced what he experienced, would I have chosen something different? The day that he made a tremendous mistake would have I done it differently? And it was that day, and reflecting on it since then, that I realized that unless you listen to a person's story, you can prematurely judge them. How many times in our work, Amy, have we sat with a person who's, say, acted out sexually in ways that almost seem like you did what? But, but then, but then you listen to this. But, yeah, but then you listen to the story and you're like, oh, I see.

When you say there is always a story and it's a young story, Right. It's when you, when you go to, to the earliest places, it's. It's a young story, but there is always a story. And one of the primary skills of really being able to, you know, to, to see another is to sit in that space without judgment.

Right.

And you know, for me, you remember comprehensive clinic.

I sure do.

And I remember Dr. Harper. You remember Dr. Harper?

I do. James Harper.

Great man, great man, wonderful clinician. And I remember him telling me, okay, Amy, if you, if you ever get stuck and you don't know what to do, just show empathy to your client. And that will work every single time, you know?

And what's interesting about what you Just said is gets to the second point. Right. So we have to understand the story, but then can I have empathy with this person? And that's really the other part of allowing ourselves to be seen and to people will open up and self disclose when they feel heard, when they feel understood. So if we just look at the definition of empathy, it's being able to feel what a person is feeling without it overwhelming our system and staying out of judgment.

Because why is it that we're so quick to judge? Because we're terrified. Right, Right.

I mean, I don't know what to do with your story, do I? Can I fix it? Which gets me to the third point. I, if I have empathy, what I'm going to be doing is trying to fix the story, fix them. It's not about fixing because I believe, as a friend of mine once said, the seeds to the solutions to our issues lie within us. And that's actually how I do therapy. Right. I, I allow them to see, to nurture that part of them because they have the internal answer. And that is a big deal. So when we're working with individuals or if you're listening today, if you truly want to understand somebody, understand their story, develop empathy. And then third, don't solve their problem.

Right. Because you can't, number one, you can try. You can try. But then, I mean, how effective, you know, how does that work for us? Not very well. If you can connect to the emotion of the story rather than getting caught into the story, you know, of itself, of imagining as they're communicating their story, what emotions are they feeling and being able to connect that part of you with the emotion that they're communicating.

Yeah. So I, I want to talk a little bit about this in, in a different way for a second. When individuals come to us and they don't really trust each other, we, we see that a lot in our work where trust has really been shot down and it's diminished. And it's like, I don't know if I can trust this deeper emotion with you because I don't know if you'll be able to withstand or hold it for me. Because in the past you haven't done.

What has past taught them, you know, the patterns we, hasn't worked very well.

So the risk is that I try to open up and you don't. You can't be with it. You, you, you get overwhelmed by it. You discount it, you shut it down. It overwhelms you. That's when you know your shame is, is too high and your ability to help soothe in that moment is not present. You can't be there.

Right.

So if you're hearing of your partner and you're being overwhelmed and you feel ashamed or you feel guilty, you really have to deal with your shame so you can be present with your partner in their pain.

Well. And that risk of, you know, typically with your partner, that's the person that you don't. That risk of rejection, you want to be, you know, you don't want to be the mom that's having the worst day. You want to be perceived as the best mom or the best. You know, we don't want that mask to come off. And that fear of rejection with that coming off is really scary.

Absolutely. In fact, another story real quick. We were doing a men's group a few years ago, and there was this man, I'll never forget, he's sitting. Was sitting about three feet from where I'm sitting right now, and just in the back of this group. And, you know, he hadn't said a whole lot during the group. And I was talking about this concept of which we're going to be talking about soon, of deep listening. And I. I said to him, you know, if we can practice deep listening, if you guys can do that with your partner, because these are individuals who in some way had betrayed their partner. And I said, if you could just sit and listen, if you could just sit and listen, what would your wife say to you or your partner say to you? He raised his hand. He said, every time I try to listen, all she does is get angrier and angrier and angrier. And I said, okay, so I'm going to ask you to ask more questions. So when you sense that she's. You're. You've asked the question, you go home and you say, hey, I realize that my behaviors have hurt you. Would you be willing to share with me what that's been like for you? And I'm going to do my best to listen. So we were role playing this. He said, yeah, but the moment I do that, she's going to come back and start yelling at me more. I said, okay, your task is to stay with her and just to acknowledge it and then ask her to share more of what she's been feeling. So he's like, okay, but I'm telling you, doc, she's going to come back and she's going to blow up and she's going to be upset. And I said, your job is just to. Just to be there present and listen to her pain. He said, all right. I'll try it. I'll try it. I mean, I'll, I'll put you put me to a test. I'll try it. So I couldn't wait for the next group. So he comes into the next group. He said, I'll be danged. Didn't use that word.

I was just.

Didn't use that word. And he said, I went home and I just sat there and I was. Instead of, instead of me being my natural defensive me, I listened and I said, okay, and tell me more about what you felt. And she opened up more and she opened up more. And he said, is there more? And she opened up more. And instead of it feeling like yelling, he was this curious man and he was like, I finally understood her pain. I finally understood her pain. And, and all of those times he said I, I was being defensive and I couldn't hear. And finally you'd give me that silly assignment just to sit and listen with a little bit of curiosity and try to understand deep listening. And she shared more and more talk about self disclosure. He was creating the environment so she could be there, open and honest.

And then what happens to that rage, to that anger? Then instead of that distance, what, what usually happens? What have we seen from Wednesday to Friday on those couples intensives?

And that's where we see them connecting. That's where they can have the deeper connections, the eye contact, looking at each other. Right, that's where it happen.

Or you know, more than that, with just that deep learning, those deep listening skills.

So I want to do one other part here and that, and that is this concept of being seen. Allowing ourselves to be seen requires the deepest form of self worth and self, sense of self. If I don't believe in myself, if I don't like myself, I don't want you to see me, Amy. I don't want you to look into me because you're going to reject me just like I think you are. You're going to reject me fully anticipating it. When we are healthy and when we are whole, we allow others to see in to us. That then enhances our understanding of each other and builds trust. And that is, is something that we have lost as a society. We don't see and we're not being seen and we're not enhancing our understanding of each other because of our fears.

Well, I want to say, how many times have we, you know, sat with individuals like you, say, I've never had a nurturer, but it's asking the question, your home's growing up. Did you, did you feel seen, did you? So where would they ever learn these deep listening skills and these, these communicative skills if they grew up in homes where it wasn't modeled to them? And how many times that.

That's right. And so we often say you can't do what you haven't learned. You know, it's like asking me to go build a rocket ship. I've never learned. So you asked me to build it. I could go read a book, I could do, go take an educational class, but I don't know how to do that without really a lot of effort.

How many books? By the time people come to us, they have every self help book. They're, they, they want to learn, but it was never modeled to them or it's never been safe or they want to. Because that's a primary. That's a primary. Want to connect, to be seen, to, to love and be loved.

Absolutely. And one of the interesting things about it is, is when we start to self disclose, we really do. We disclose, we open up. And if it's a safe enough environment, we feel a different energy, we feel a hope. We feel like someone truly gets us.

And we move from shame. Then when we're able to learn those skills and you know, you're saying, tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. And then we hear I'm scared. Right?

Absolutely. And really, what is this scared of? I'm afraid of what?

I'm afraid of that if I show you this, you won't love me. I'm afraid. Right. And.

Right. And, and interestingly, there's a phrase in the book by Anna Lemke, Dopamine Nation. She says recounting our experiences gives us mastery over them. Now it's interesting there because if I tell you about just a random event that I that occurred, that's a form of cognitive intimacy where I'm sharing thoughts with you. When I share deeper emotions with you, I'm actually inviting you into an emotional part of me. I'm afraid. I'm worried. I'm worried about the children. I'm worried that I'm so busy right now that I don't have time to take care of you and the children. Those honest evaluations, self reflective evaluations, that is self disclosure.

Right.

And we aren't good at it because we really haven't been taught how to do that. And when we do do it, we're not sure how this person's going to respond. And if they haven't responded well in the past, we're assuming that they won't respond well in the future.

And my belief is they want to, they just don't know how well.

Or they're so busy that they aren't taking the time to say, wait a second, you need some extra energy right now because you're suffering right where it's.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, or quick to say, yeah, yeah, that sucks. I'm sorry. Instead of really deeply listening, even if.

I'm busy, I could say, you know, this sounds like it's really important. Could we talk about that before we go to bed tonight?

It's so interesting how many times I have heard and I've had clients say to me, okay, can I just put you in my ear? And then you can just tell me what to say. And Dr. Skinner says, it is so easy. Here are just a few key phrases.

Well, and the reason why the easiness is letting your heart speak. See what the most fascinating thing to me is, we don't think we know how. But when I role play with individuals or we role play with individuals, you begin to see quickly how fast we pick up the development of empathy, right? How, how soon we can actually be with people and not overwhelmed by their emotions. And that's the challenge is today we live in a culture that we haven't learned how to do this. We have to develop these skills. Because if you don't have the skills, you can't do what you don't know how to do. No shame there, just a reality, right? A couple of other things. When I self disclose, it means I have to know how to be honest with myself. Self disclosure means you have to understand yourself well enough to say, I am feeling, I am thinking, I am concerned, what are my core emotions? Which means that we have to be.

Honest with ourselves and curious instead of just reacting to the world. Curious about, okay, what am I feeling? And being open and curious to recognizing. Just asking yourself that question.

Which again, if I'm in high levels of shame, I can't do that, right? And the reason why I can't is because it, it. If I feel someone else's pain, it overwhelms my system. So we have to deal with our stuff so we can be more authentic and honest in our relationships. And then what begins to happen is we see the power of it. That's actually why a group processing group, it can be so effective because I can be radically honest. Using a phrase from Anna lemke and others, 12 step programs. Radical honesty, the ability to be seen, the ability to put out that part of me that for so long I've been afraid that everyone would reject.

Well, and you know, group work is my favorite work because the individuals in, in the group, you kind of have the least amount to lose. You know, you have the most with your partner, with your family, with those really close to you. To be able to practice this work with number one others who are saying, I don't know how to do it either, so let's come together and then you just take these baby steps to learn these skills. It is incredible group work. It's just, it's, I feel like it's.

The best work because ultimately there I begin to trust others with my emotions. So if you have struggled in relationship, especially your primary relationship, not knowing how to be vulnerable, not knowing how to communicate, you may benefit from a support group, somebody who can understand you, a therapist who can sit with you without judgment, with understanding and help you develop the self awareness so you can actually learn how to be seen in your relationships.

That's, that's so beautifully worded. I, I love the sessions where you're able to help them develop that understanding personally and then nudge them in their relationships and help give them those words like you did with the client of, okay, tell me more, tell me more. And just nudging them to gently move toward and to engage in that, you know, that self, that vulnerability of sharing.

You know, one final part today of this. As I listen to people's stories and I often will reflect back to them what they've shared with me. When, when I reflect back with them, Amy, one of the most interesting things occurs. They begin to say, oh yeah, and they begin to hear even a little bit of empathy for their own suffering.

Right.

Because for once I'm reflecting to them the pain that they've shared and the openness that they've shared with me. And I'm giving it to them in a way that's like, oh, that is my story.

Right? You're reflecting that back and then they have some of that self compassion. How many times do we hear, I've never thought of it that way. I've never, never imagined like seeing myself as that 10 year old little girl or that 6 year old little boy. And then they, they engage in that self compassion.

Absolutely. And ultimately then what happens is they begin to realize that their story is what their story has been up to this point. It brings me here and I was like, I now understand myself on a deeper level. And when we truly understand ourselves, because we've allowed ourselves to be seen, we can begin the healing process. But when we have these barriers, these wedges, these silent secrets, so we're suffering alone, that's really hard to be seen and to have deep connections. And ultimately, if we're going to change our society, if we're going to change our relationship, we have to learn how to let go of this, what maybe we could call a fear of intimacy. Even if I was to put a different way, the fear of letting others in to see us and overcome our fears. But the only way we're going to do that is if we find the people who can sit with us in that and not judge us, but be with us. All right, final thoughts that you have today, Amy.

You know, I'm. I am in my home office, and I have this quote right here that I love. It's. It's Paulo Coelho. You will never be able to escape from your heart, so it is better to listen what it has to say.

I love it. What a great way to end this podcast to our listeners. I did have one question that I would like to address today, Amy. Maybe you can help me with this. The question is this. I've been listening to the podcast on shame for most of my life. I've been dealing with this voice of shame that probably, probably came into my life about age 6 or 7. Something occurred. I don't want to disclose what occurred, but I began to think that there was something bad or wrong with me in listening to your podcast. I no longer feel that way, but I don't know how to get rid of that internal voice that there's something wrong with me. Can you help.

Your thoughts, Skinner? Because, you know.

Yeah, My initial thought is, thanks for asking and thanks for being vulnerable. Obviously, something occurred to this person at age 6 that often we find in the work that we do where people feel this feeling of there is something wrong with me, they internalize age 6, I wasn't enough to be protected. This person hurt me again. What I don't know the full experience, but what I do know is this person internalized a belief. There's something wrong with me. That's the shame belief. And in the work that I would encourage this person to do moving forward is to deal with the core belief. Because as you often hear me say, Amy, I believe that we are all born with high self worth and that it is only life's experiences that make us question that worth. So our goal is actually just to get you back to who you already are. And the way I would do that is to deal with that negative core belief. You are enough you do matter.

And that's where I feel like I'm a broken record. What do we see with those negative beliefs? The. The most powerful experience that I have had is being able to do the work, you know, EMDR and ART on those early experiences. Because even though this individual is saying, I don't feel this way anymore, that program is there where I would say to, you know, what do you call the. The Norton Antivirus, where it's go after that belief, as you're saying, an emvr and ART is incredible.

And so for our listeners, EMDR is Eye Movement Desensitization reprocessing, and ART is Accelerated Resolution Therapy. These are two profoundly powerful approaches to help individuals overcome negative core beliefs, often related to shame, negative thoughts, those type of emotional experiences that you've probably been carrying with you since you were age 6. And if you can get someone to help you work through that, you can be freedom. We've seen it over and over in our clinic. You can be freed from that negative core belief. You already cognitively know it, because I heard you say that in your question. But from an emotional perspective, we need to get to the root of it and help literally be the antivirus software. The truth is, you are always of infinite worth and value. I hope you can't. I hope you won't forget that.

I just want to end that there. And. But also we see that I know this isn't true, but it doesn't feel true right where you're saying, I know, but I don't believe it. And.

Yeah, anyway, so thank you for asking your question. This is a great question. My. My heart goes out to you, and it tells me that there's something you want different that your heart knows, but it doesn't yet know your true value and worth. No experience can define our worth. You're always of infinite worth and value. All right, Amy, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you to our listeners. It has been absolutely delightful. A. A real quick side note here. We hit 1300 downloads this week, which is in the first few weeks. That's not too bad, Amy.

Well, I'm. I'm glad people are listening. Keep listening.

Please do. And please share with your friends. If you're finding the information helpful, please share this podcast with your friends. We appreciate your time. May you be blessed in your pursuit of human intimacy. Our deepest desire is that you can find the kind of relationship that brings you joy and life satisfaction. Amy, thank you so much. Smile.

When you smile.