The Cost of Judgment: Seeing Ourselves and Others With Compassion (Episode #92)

There's something about you that I can't.

Help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, today our focus is on judgment and how we judge ourselves, how we judge others. And ultimately, as we reflect on this concept of judgment, we have to make decisions. In other words, we have to place a judgment in situations of how am I going to respond here? Or how do I see this human being, how do I see this other person? And my concern is that we make judgments without accurate information or enough information. So with that, start, what are your initial thoughts?

This is such a great topic to talk about, Dr. Skinner, and it applies to everybody, everywhere, because this is how we function. We as human beings. Our brain's job is to predict the future. Our brain's job is to say, what's going to come next? And how do I make sure that I'm safe? What am I going to do? And so our brain is constantly creating this, the storyline, and just interpreting information. And with that, we often are basing these judgments on past experiences, what we've seen, what's within our template, what we've already searched for, experience of our, like, you know, like our algorithms, basically, for lack of a better word, here's what I've seen, here's what you've seen before, here's. Let's. We'll make sense of it here, and that's how we interface with the world. But it can get us into a lot of trouble when we're coming from our perspective and how we see the world. Recognizing that or not recognizing that, one, I might be completely 100% off, and two, it's everything is Marianne flavor.

So let me give a few examples of this to kind of highlight it. When I do work with individuals and couples, I typically will do what's called a family history. Look at their genogram is what we call it, looking at their family history for maybe two or three generations ahead of them. And as I do that, I often hear of statements from either one, women are, men are. Or say, let me say it another way, all women are, all men are. That's just what men or women do. And so we begin to make statements of generalizations that are ultimately judgments on a gender, a race, a culture. And so we begin to stop seeing individuals, and we look at things collectively in this judgment category in just a simple example like that. When we do that, Mary, I know you got something you want to say there, but when we do that we take out individuality and their individual personalities and that is what I hope we can help individuals avoid.

Yeah. The label I would put on that is othering when we other people, what you're saying is we take away their humanity, that they are a human, that they are an individual. We put them into this group where they're lost. Did I follow that right?

Yeah. And ultimately what that ends up doing is it takes away a personality. It also takes away that person's story and it also can make it so change feels nearly impossible to you and maybe to them if I label them or see them as this is who you are.

And that brings me to something that I may have repeated here before. But this is what I've learned from you, is there's usually a story, there's always a story. And I can either choose to say, nope, that's how they are based on my perception, based on my judgment and my expectations and I'm going to cut them off because they can't change or because of X, Y, Z, I can do that. And I can also shift. And if I can say, let me understand more of that story and let me share an example of that. When we do disclosures, there's something that, if it goes well, there's something that I often see when there is a partner sharing something that's maybe very shameful, very painful, super exposed, super vulnerable. One specific disclosure, the husband was his hands were shaking, he was trembling. We had to keep pausing for him to do some breathing to even get the words out. Was something from his childhood that he did, he had planned on taking it to the grave. It was something that he had so much pain and shame around his spouse watching that she wasn't seeing him as his 50 year old self then doing that act. She saw him as a 8 year old boy and seeing that he'd been carrying that for 40 years. There's something that changes when we hear each other's stories. There's this tenderness that we see and go, that poor little boy who didn't have anybody to turn to, who's never talked to anybody about this, has been carrying this, who was so confused, how hard that must have been and there was nobody to understand that for him. That changes how we see each other when we really hear and understand that story. I now see you as somebody who's had so much pain and holy cow, how are you still standing?

So Marianne, what you just described I think is so incredibly valuable. As we are seen, usually our judgment meter goes down. So being seen up, sharing that vulnerable, boyhood, eight year old story. I'm being seen. It's easier to judge people when we don't see them, when we don't understand them, when we don't want to see them or understand them. But when we start to see people and their story, we are less judgmental and we're ultimately more understanding. I see you. Turn the volume up. My judgment usually goes down. Usually, not always. Sometimes we see somebody and what they're doing and we may become more judgmental. But why is it that I relate too much to what you're experiencing? Or is it I just. I can't deal with your story? Why can't I deal with your story? Why can't I understand that?

Earlier today I was talking with a client about this topic and there's a phrase that came to me that I learned in my childhood. I have no idea where it came from. So I'm wondering if you heard this too, Dr. Skinner. It's I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks on you. Have you heard this before?

I have not heard that, but it makes a lot of sense.

If anybody knows the origin of this, I would love to hear it. But I think there's so much wisdom here. If I can realize that the reaction you're having is about you, about your pain, about your experience. And it actually isn't about me. It's about how you're perceiving things. Your reactions are yours, your emotions are yours. So if somebody is being rude and mean and nasty and unkind to me, that that's not because I'm a bad person. That's because there's some judgment, there's some misunderstanding. There's something going on for the person that's reacting that way towards me, so their reaction towards me bounces off me. I can look at it as this reflected. Like it bounces off forever. And it's like actually like, well, hold on a second. Wow. Can I. Instead of saying, like, I'm cutting you off because you're a mean, nasty, awful person and you were mean to me. Can I pause it and say, wow, what? Like, that was ugly. That was awful. What's going on with you? Because this isn't about me, this is about you. Yeah.

What happens there is you're able to be an observer of the experience rather than internalize it. And notice that judgment versus not judgment. I wonder what's going on with this person. That person is so mean, they're so unkind. They're so this the shift from that into I wonder what happened there that triggered that kind of response in this situation. Take out the judgment, take in the awareness of something's going on in their life or lives. The concept then is shifting to how I see in a judgmental way versus an open ended way of trying to understand the story. To me, I cannot emphasize that enough. Every time I see a, I'm going to call it a misbehavior, I begin asking the question, what's the story behind the misbehavior? A child's throwing a temper tantrum. They're crying, they're whining, they're needy, whatever it is, are they hungry? Are they tired? Do they need nurture? There's a story. And we can almost automatically do that as a caregiver of a little child, right? We don't judge them, we try to solve the issue to help them. But if I was judgmental, oh man, I've got this child, he just cries all the time. I mean, that just sounds kind of, I don't know, silly to me.

Well, put it in context. If I'm a young mother at the grocery store with my kids in the cartoon and it's nap time or they're hungry, they're having meltdowns and I'm going like, oh gosh, this took longer than I expected. Clearly I know what their needs are. We've got to get this done. And I might understand it, I might feel a little frazzled. I also might have a lot of emotions about it. Maybe some shame because other people, like, do people think I'm a bad mom because I'm not addressing something right away? But other people might be annoyed. They might be like, lady, shut your kids up. What's going on? Why aren't you taking care of them? Clearly they're in need, like so quickly we can get there and it doesn't take much.

And again, I could also be self judgmental in a situation like that. I must be a bad mom. I'm this and I'm that. And in reality, my child's nap time and my child's really tired. And they probably would benefit from just sitting in a car seat and falling asleep.

And there's overstimulated right here. They've been in the store.

So self judgment, like, I'm bad, I'm not good enough. And I often see this when people have been betrayed. Marianne, we hear that kind of a language. My spouse would not have done XYZ if I had been finished that sentence. More of this or more of that or done more of this. And so somehow that self judgment is. If I was enough, you wouldn't do XYZ.

Dr. Skinner, I was talking with a couple of other therapists about this earlier this week and we were talking about, you know, is it a belief or is it something like our minds just like telling us is ingrained. And then I had a client right after that who was just like, no, a hundred percent. This was my belief. This was how I saw the world. It wasn't. There was no question about it. And I think oftentimes what we're talking about here is we're judging from places that are really deeply ingrained of this is how I see myself in the world.

And that goes up to increasing our own self awareness. How did I get to this place of judgment? How did I even come to this conclusion? And maybe I'm right or wrong, don't know. But the more open we are to those kind of feedbacks that our own questioning, like how did I come to this place where I'm seeing it this way? That kind of awareness can actually help you in your own life.

And I think that comes back to our stories. Yeah, these are the stories that I've experienced in my life where I said, oh, okay, this must mean that I'm not enough.

That internalized judgment. I'm not enough. Right again. Judgment. That self judgment. What would happen if we didn't judge self? What would be the alternative?

Oh, you know, I Love that question, Dr. Skinner, because I think about how many of my clients, when we talk about a support group, especially my clients who've acted out sexually, and I'll say, you know, I think a support group would be really helpful for you. The research says that it's helpful. Part of working through shame is having a space where you can really show up honestly and freely and get support from other people. And so many times that I know I mentioned this here before, but so many times my clients is like, I can't go there. That's like, I'm not a monster. That's one monster's. People are that are just horrible. Oftentimes my clients will also. I'll also have clients who believe them that about themselves. But showing up at a place like a support group would validate that, and that's too painful.

Yeah. So I may have shared this story before, but it just sticks out to me. Early in my career, when I was being trained to be a therapist, I was in my PhD program and I had the opportunity to work with individuals who were court ordered for domestic violence. And it was a group using Dr. Steve Stosny's work on a compassionate approach to dealing with domestic violence. And he had a whole training on it. And it was an interesting experience because as we entered into this group, this was probably a group of eight to 10 men and all court ordered. And in order for them to graduate, they had to go through a 16 week prescribed course. And part of that course, we had them write a letter to the person that they had offended against or abused in this case. And I'll never forget this one guy, it was his time to graduate and he opened up this letter and it was ultimately to his wife. But he said, I began this group exercise and I think here I am with a bunch of. I think his words were a bunch of drunken hillbillies. That's his judgment, initial judgment. And he said, I didn't feel like I belonged here. I didn't feel like I had that problem. And then as I heard their stories and I heard them share their experiences, I realized I was just like they were. And it shifted his mindset. And he was one of the most powerful letters to the whole group when he was done was like, wow. Because he had put down that judgment and realized, I'm like everybody else here and they're like me. And over that time they bonded together in such a profound way. When you go to a group, you put down judgments because you start to see stories, you start to see people. And that's the part that I think is missing. Most of our. The work that I see is when people don't see the story behind it. When I keep it to myself, whether that's childhood abuse, whether that's relationship abuse earlier in our life, or even a story in our relationship that's not resolved, I can form a belief you are to this or not enough of that. And so I create judgment against you because you're not whatever. And then I stop seeing you and start feeling like my judgment's accurate, that's unfair, and it's hurtful to relationships.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this because as I'm hearing you talk about this for me, I'm hearing that this is also where I think resentment begins. Would you agree to that?

Oh, for sure. In fact, I would. If I was to add to that, because my judgment's accurate now I can justify my resentment towards you. You don't care about me, you don't love me. I don't matter to you. So yes, I am resentful that you are X Y Z.

So let me add two more concepts into this then, because I think they all. I think this is a great mashup. So if we're talking about judgment, we're talking about resentment. And I think in the space between judgment and resentment, we have expectation. Anytime I have expectation, especially when it's not met, that's where I end up with frustration. Maybe I have an expectation, and then I judge you because you've met or didn't meet my expectation. When I feel frustration and then I feel resentment, does that be a great.

Way to put it? Sure. Sure.

So, yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

So how do we get to place. Where I see you as a word I often use is the enemy. Right. At some point, I have shifted from we are in alliance, we're friends, we get along, to a place where I, physiologically or emotionally feel like I can't trust you anymore. I don't believe you anymore. Maybe you've done something that's hurt me. But at the same time, in this situation, Marianne, when I pull back and explore my own emotions, yeah, I do feel that frustration. And I feel justified in my judgment of. Of this situation and of you. And I might be absolutely right. It still means that I don't understand the story completely.

So this is our ladder. We can walk down and say, hold on a second. Here's what it starts then, with our expectations. Here's what my brain predicted. Here's what, growing up in my family of origin, this is what we do, or this is what I've learned. These are the rules. I know for me, I get caught up a lot of times in the rules. What, you're not keeping the rules. Wait a second. What do I do with that? And so we can get really caught in, like, these belief systems that we've learned throughout our lives that these are the rules, this is how things have to be. And I'm going to other you or judge you or think there's something wrong with you, because I don't understand why you're not keeping the rules. You're. You're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. And I don't understand the story that's there.

Marianne. There's a really important part of this that I think really gets harder when we deal with sexual betrayal. Right. Because I. All I see is that you cheated on me, you had an affair, you were unfaithful. I see that broke the rules that.

We had in our relationship.

Right. You absolutely broke the rules, and the expectation is broken. And now we Walk down that whole path. You went all of this. I resent the fact that you put me in this situation. We had an accord or an agreement and you broke it. That makes complete sense to me that I would. In that situation, I would have to judge this situation and say, am I going to connect with you or not? How do I make that decision? How do I judge in this situation? To stay or to leave. That is one of the most complex questions that I've dealt with in my career because I've deal with I don't know how many couples. It's. It's a hundred, thousands. I don't know how do I make that judgment? Is what we're often asked. And my ultimate answer is both individuals have to step back and understand their own stories before they make judgment.

I want to say something that I think if I were a betrayed partner hearing this, I might be like, really, Mariam? Did you really go there? So I'm prefacing that I'm going to say something, but I think it's important because as we're talking about when I've been betrayed, when I'm in that place of judgment and broken expectations or unmet expectations, and I have been hurt so painfully by my partner who did not keep promises and commitments that were made when I am in that place that's so hurt or so where there's so much pain and resentment. There's also this space, I think, that you and I are talking about, Dr. Skinner, about understanding our partner's story. How did they get to that space? And as a betrayed partner, I might be throwing up in my mouth a little bit right now hearing that. Like, I don't care how he got to this space. I don't want to know his story about how this happened. And so early on with betrayal. No, this might be hard, but I think as we get down the road, like, can we step back and say, how did. How did my partner get to this space? Like, there's something there. There's always a story. There's always reasons for our behaviors. And I'm going to. My partner's intent is not always to. It's not about hurting me. It's usually about something that they're missing or something going on with them.

So, Marianne, I think part of the answer to this question is, is actually betrayed partners still ask, why did you do this? Because they're trying to make sense of the story.

Yes.

The biggest problem when it comes to sexual behaviors or drinking or substances, though why of it never makes sense in the middle of people acting out, like, why does a person drive drunk? Why does it. Why does a person do use a substance that could literally kill them? Why does a person betray a person they love? There's never an answer that makes logical sense. So we're trying to pass judgment on a story. I have to make assumptions. I have to guess, I have to say, because you didn't love me, because I wasn't enough, because finish the story. Maybe part of that's true, but what if it's not? What if it's a completely different possibility? What if my spouse acted out because they have addictive tendencies? What if it's not about me? What if something else is a part of their life that I don't know? That story? Then perhaps I can remove myself from it and start to see it in a way that this isn't about me. This is their journey. That still does not mean I'm going to choose to stay or leave. It means that I'm starting to see part of their why. And then maybe I can make a more informed decision because I start to understand their why.

I think one of the things that happens in this space is our heart changes a little bit. So being able to stop and look and say, is my heart at war or is my heart at peace When I'm in this judgmental space, that this is all about me, about hurting me because I'm not enough or whatever, when I internalize it and it's about me, that's. That's where my heart really goes to war. But when I stop and start to hear somebody else's story and try to understand, where are they coming from? How did they get to this place? How did that happen? How did that make sense for them? My heart really comes to a much more peaceful place. And if I have understanding, it just shifts. I think we pass judgment so, so quickly, which is part of our survival, but we don't even think about it. If we were to take the time to slow down and to really just start hearing people's stories, we. We would be in so much awe. I think one of the joys of the work that I do is seeing people, my clients, in such vulnerable places, sharing deep vulnerabilities, and sometimes my jaw just drops. I just value the humanity of the people that I interact with. Seeing them and the things that shape us, that get us to where we're at most of the time. We have these barriers that we build up to protect ourselves, but when we let those barriers down, the beauty inside is just amazing.

And that Last part is so critical, Marianne. When we let the barriers down, it's really hard to make a judgment about people. When we don't see people, when they won't let us in, we can't determine who this person is because their barriers are so high that they don't let us in. And if you don't let people in, then the people around you still have to make a decision, a judgment of how to be with you. But the more barriers we keep up around us, then we might see that people see us as off or stuck up or arrogant or finish that out. When in truth, you might be shy and embarrassed and ashamed, but everyone else might be reading it as, oh, you are higher than high. Because I don't allow myself to be seen, the people around me have to figure out how to be with me because I'm unwilling to allow my guard to come down so I'm actually seen by other people.

And the irony of that, I would say, is that I probably built and put up that guard because of experiences that I had that were painful, that said I need to keep people out and not let them in.

That's right. Yeah. And so the very thing that we made not want, we actually create because we're not allowing ourselves. And usually there's a story of why I put the wall up, right? And that's why this process, when I see individuals who say, I was going to my grave with this shift into. I feel free. There's so much freedom and honesty and being open. There's a space here where I no longer feel confined. It's like I am open. And it's so enjoyable to watch people go through that process, Marianne, where they're seen and felt for the first time. Again, judgment comes down when we turn up the being seen volume. I think that's simple. But it is that simple.

I think for me, Dr. Skinner, I come back to. This is a concept that I catch myself in personally a lot. Once again, because I'm human. But I will catch myself. I'll make a judgment. And sometimes I'll make some judgments that are a little bit rash. You know, just like, wow, here's my standard. And how could this person do that? And that just naturally, the thought that shows up in my head and over and over and over again in my own life, I catch myself like, oh, my goodness, Marianne. Like, look at that. You made that judgment. And here is the absolute opposite of that. I don't know about you, but I have these reminders and go, oh, you can't judge. You Just can't judge people, Marianne. You gotta slow down that area because you're getting it wrong a little bit.

I learned this lesson early on in my career, and this is why I say we have to step back and understand the story. And it's because when I've sat with individuals and I've missed the story, and then when I hear the story, my lights click on. I'm like, well, of course they're doing this or being this way, or of course they cope with this behavior. When I sit back and listen to the story, it makes so much more sense. So I have had to learn as a professional to be extremely neutral to the point where if I can get a person's story, it all of a sudden makes more sense about their behaviors. It doesn't justify. Actually helps me understand myself so I can understand myself to the point where I can be more authentic and real and be better with other humans, because now I understand my own story. And if I came to you, Marianne, and said, you know, I realized that I hurt you this way, I didn't realize the way that your tone of voice, for example, it was triggering me, and it reminded me of XYZ experience with a teacher in this grade. And that's why I was pulling away, and that's why I was resistant to you. Well, you would, of course, say, oh, that makes more sense to you, because I've come to an awareness of my story and why I'm interacting with you the way that I am interacting with you.

I've got a great example of this. So I have a sister who's a counselor also. And years ago, when she was in school, she came to me and said, would you write for one of my assignments? I'd like to have you write, like, what it was like for you when I moved out of the house. And she and I were super close. And I was like, do you want me to be honest, or do you want me to, like, sugarcoat it? And you're right. How do you want me to show up in this? Because, I mean, I will if you really want me to. And she tacked on there. Maybe it was at the same time, part of this, but she had said, there's a girl in one of my classes, that she just drives me crazy. And she said, after a while, she said, I realized that she has some of your characteristics, Marianne. And I was like, well, I don't know what to do with that. Thanks. You know, thanks.

So I drive you crazy, too.

Exactly. But as I wrote this letter for my sister, you know, just like here, this is what my experience was. She was like, I had no idea. Our relationship changed significantly. Her relationship with the person in school who drove her bonkers. It changed when she and I resolved our relationship.

Hmm.

I think this just illustrates what you were talking about. It is about learning to, one, really go into ourselves and figure out what's my story. And also to have the courage to show up with other people and say, help me understand your story of me. I think one other part that I want to add on to this and I think is really, as I've been thinking about this, if I were a listener or viewer, I might say, yeah, but how do I figure out my own story? I don't know what to do with that. And what I can share from my own experience is, for me, going to group was a really good place where we shared our stories, and that was modeled for me, and I learned how to share my story that way. Other work that's been super helpful for me. The Betrayal Bond by Patrick Hearns. It's a really good workbook about traumatic bonding that really, I look at it as, like, here's the workbook about childhood abuse that you didn't know that you might have experienced. There's a lot of assessments in there. There's a lot of charts and going through, going like, oh, I experienced that, but I didn't know that was a problem. Oh, like. Like identifying it and seeing it. But one of the exercises in there, as you go through this workbook and you're doing this work, and you're really coming up front and center with, wait, I thought everybody did that. I thought that was super normal. And now I have to make sense of relationships that weren't as healthy as I thought they were. There's several exercises there, but one of them is actually about writing your story in a third person. So going back and saying, once upon a time, there was a little girl, and she experienced. You know, she grew up here, and she experienced. And just writing the whole, here's the things that happened. And that is a good place to start understanding your story. But I'm also talking about, this is years of work. This is a journey of how, like, here's a step here. Let me step in and do some work here. And as you said, like, sometimes our light bulbs go on and say, oh, now I understood why I did that. Now I see this differently or myself differently. So I think it's also a journey, a journey into ourself. But also our relationships change as we do this work. As well.

And again, that's self work. So we don't judge self and others in ways that are close minded. We're trying to maintain an open mind and ask ourselves questions. I wonder why, what happened there? It reminds me of Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Perry. They wrote a book, what happened to you? And as I reflect on that book, as you look about what happened to you, it's really asking the same question that we've been asking. What's the story? What happened to this you in this situation or what happened to me in this situation? Why am I responding this way? Or why is this person doing what they're doing? That personal work and that type of question, it almost always illuminates our mind because all of a sudden we're starting to see ourselves and other people's, no pun intended, in a different light.

And you use that illumination there as well. I mean, I think that's so apropos, Dr. Skinner. This is really what we all want and need is to be seen, be understood. Like deep down that that's all any of us really want and need, help felt and to be seen. And when we can take off our lenses of our self judgment and also slow ourselves down and maybe put notice that part that says, at least for me, I've learned to say, okay, judgy part, I see you there. Can you scoot over to the side and can I see with another part of me? Can I see with the understanding or compassionate or even just the curious part? Can I push judgment to the side or ask it to step aside and say curiosity? Let's step in here and be open.

Yeah, I like that. All right, Marianne, so as we close up today, I just want to say to our listeners, if you're willing to step back and ask yourself some questions, you may be surprised, in fact identify someone or situation that you feel yourself more judgmental on and it may be yourself and ask yourself a few questions. What happened here? What's the story behind this thought or this emotion or this behavior? Just ask yourself the question, see what comes up, see what you learn. That's my hope is that you'll take away and come away from situations less judgmental but more open minded, which ultimately help our entire society learn how to see each other in a more effective way.

I want to add just a little. Yeah, well say, let me tweak that or add on. But this comes from, I don't know if you're familiar with Byron, Katie, the work. Yeah, I think with that there's just some questions we can add to that. So just asking, is this true? That's the first question that we ask. Is it really true? Do it. Do I like. Because oftentimes we see things and say, oh, that's true. But that second question I just think is so like, can we know for sure that it's really true? And then we really start to think a little more critically about it and then looking at it saying like, what would it look like if it. Or how does that impact me with that belief that it's true? And our. The fourth question of that is how would I act or react or what would I do differently if it wasn't true? And I think there's so much openness with that last question. So what if it's not true? If it's. Then would I have all these emotions that are tied up around it? And how would I interact differently if it wasn't?

There's something, I think that's a whole different question. How would it influence how I act? So to our listeners, something to consider, like I'm scared because I don't know how I would act if it's not true. Or maybe the way I've seen this isn't accurate. Maybe I. I don't know what to do with that. And, and that's often why we go back to the same thoughts or the same feelings because we don't know what to think or feel differently.

Great.

All right, to our listeners, thank you for being with us today. If you haven't yet seen the the upcoming second annual Human Intimacy Conference, that'll be March 13th and 14th of 2026. If you haven't signed up for our podcast, our course on that supports this podcast. We encourage you to do so and we'll put a link in the show notes for that. Also we have Rise, hope and healing from sexual betrayal and reclaim, healing from pornography and rebuilding your life. So lots of resources available to you and that many other courses on the Human Intimacy website. But anyway, we're just glad that you're with us. Marianne, your final thoughts?

I always come back to the self compassion. Just an invitation to see the humanity in yourself, to give yourself grace and to extend that to everyone around you. And thank you for being here today. Thanks for the discussion.

All right, you guys have a great week. We'll see you next week.

All right.