The Healing Power of Honesty: Trauma, Truth, and Relationship Repair (Episode #76)

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There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner, Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, last time, last episode, we finished with you being held at gunpoint and you said, hey, it was okay. Now I want our listeners who've probably been anxiously waiting to hear what actually happened. How did you get out of that situation?

So you know, Dr. Skinner, there was just some, what I would say, some divine power that was there. The people that we were with, they were robbed, but for whatever reason, we were just miraculously not robbed. But the woman standing like two feet away from me, wedding ring, everything was taken. And the. The assailants, I guess we could call them, the perpetrators, they got in their car and they drove away. They took the people's keys to their house, keys to their car, all their documents, and they left. And they were super traumatized, of course. We were trying to figure out, oh my goodness, what just happened. So there's a lot of shock.

Yeah.

And they left and we went inside our house and just the sound of a car coming by was very scary. And some people came by and checked on us later and we were like, oh, I think we're okay. But what I found is it changed significantly how I interacted. And some of the things that I did, I was much more wary, much more watchful, much more cautious. And so it significantly changed for the whole time that I was there in Guatemala, how I interacted.

Ah, honestly, that sounds scary, right? Anytime you're held at gunpoint, I don't think any of us takes that lightly. I can't imagine being the couple who lost the car, the documents. I mean, that's a lot to Lose.

And knowing that somebody had access to their house and their kids. There was a lot there. Yeah, let me lead that in. I know today we're going to be talking about honesty and getting honest with yourself, getting honest with others. But especially all week I've been thinking, what did I do with that? Because I brought this story up related to trauma and doing trauma work. And this week I was like, what have I done for trauma work around this? And one of the things is, you know, I, I moved from that country that was in the middle of a civil war while I was there, back to a place that was safe. And back in this safe place, I didn't have those same smells sounds, just my safety levels increased incredibly. I think there's an important part of trauma work that comes from even finding safe places in people. When we share a story in a safe place, we're pulling it up from our long term memory and we're bringing it out and sharing it here. And if I'm in a safe place and people can support and hear it, then it gets put back down in my memory in a different place, in a safe, supported place of where it was today, sharing it. And so one of the reasons why we talk so much about getting group support and needing others and building social networks, especially when we've gone through hard things or we're trying to change, is because we need those supports as we're letting our brains reprocess things in different ways.

And what we're doing there, Marianne, is making sense of the experience. Right. So David Biscott, he has a quote that I really, really appreciate. And the quote is, if you lived honestly, your life would heal itself. So you could almost. I was fine. Right. But that experience had an emotional impact or imprint upon your life.

It did, but.

But if I ignore that, avoid it, dismiss it, then am I being honest with myself? And we live in a culture today where we're often taught to just move on, move through, forget, don't think about it, don't talk about it. And that creates a form of dishonesty because we aren't even being honest with ourselves about our life experiences.

Sure. And let me take that a little bit further. So for me, coming back to a country where most of us aren't going to get held up by six guys at gunpoint, I could talk to my roommates or my husband or my family or somebody say, hey, I'm going to go out for a walk tonight. Do you mind going with me? And so I can ask for help. And I got a dog a couple years ago, and I didn't used to go hiking by myself. And now, after having a dog with me, I love to go hiking by myself. And so things change. I've had to learn how to say I had a traumatic experience, and I've had to learn how to ask for support. And things have gradually changed and healed.

So the alternative to that is to going back to that language of I'm, why don't you want to go outside? We could be not even attuned to that and not even aware that our fear of maybe being outside on a walk by ourself, we aren't even attuned to it because we just glossed over it.

And if we're not glossing over it, you know, if something happens at night, because he knows of my experience, my husband doesn't mind. He just knows, oh, I can do this to help her out. And it's not like I freak out or anything, but he's more comfortable than I am. And I think that being a woman in our society, I think there's also some societal challenges just with that as well.

So, Marianne, we're talking about being honest with ourselves here, right? I think that first phase and first awareness is we have to understand what we're thinking, what we're feeling, what we're experiencing, and be congruent with it. Because if you simply said, oh, yeah, I got through it. No, not a big deal. We often hear it in other ways. In therapy, we will often ask people about their childhood experiences. And it's not atypical or uncommon for individuals to say, yeah, I had a good childhood. And then they will proceed to talk about some of their experiences. And they described it as a good experience. And there was a significant amount of addiction or trauma or parents divorce. And so they still described it as, I had a good childhood, but if I don't understand the other parts of the story, I might just think, oh, they had a good childhood. But the most honest, accurate answer is what? Both. I had a good. Some good childhood experiences and some really challenging ones.

I remember reading Facing Codependency by Pia Melody several years ago. And as I read through that, it was like, what? That's not normal. We might have to learn. We might not even have language to even realize, oh, that's not normal. You know, if we're a fish and we're swimming in the water and all the water that we have in our fishbowl, it's dirty. We don't know that it's dirty water. That's Just what we're used to. And so our clients can say, yeah, that was normal, it was fine. It was good, because that was their normal.

I think we've seen that many times throughout our careers when individuals, as they start to get more insight and awareness, they do step back and realize, okay, so maybe it wasn't as good as I thought it was, but we create a narrative to describe our experiences. If I said, okay, what was your childhood like? It was a bunch of things. It wasn't just one thing. But I still put out the narrative. I had a good childhood.

Sure. And I just want to point out how jarring it can be to stop and say, wait, I was abused. Wait, that wasn't okay. If I had. This is my normal, and I'm going along this track, and then something pushes up against it. This is where we hit the cognitive distortion. My brain says, oh, wait, hold on a second. You're causing me to think about something a completely different way. I don't even know how to make sense of who I am or how I am now, because this can be so jarring. And so part of the honesty might be giving ourselves some space and time to say, okay, maybe these things happened as well. And my childhood wasn't as great as I thought. And I really believe that pushing through that distortion and seeing things through a different lens and perspective, it's challenging. There's a lot of work that happens there.

And I think one of the things that we will also observe is some situations create that lack of personal honesty, because maybe there's a family member says, oh, that wasn't that big of a deal. And so the message is, oh, gloss over it, look over it, where instinctively we felt something was off. I've heard many times where people would turn to a parent, say, hey, this happened. And it's like, oh, no, no, that. That probably didn't happen that way. Or it's. It's minimized in some way. So in that situation, I'm told that what I was experiencing or what I experienced is probably not right. And so now I'm being told to be dishonest with what I was originally feeling because I was reaching out for help or support. That's even more traumatizing because now I had the experience and I went to get social support, and it didn't come.

There's a story that Patrick Carnes shares. He talks about her family story of sitting at the table and talking about the time a family member was drunk and drove the car through the house. And he remembers hearing that Story and going, what? Like why are people laughing about this? Like, this was funny. Once again, that cognitive distortion I'm hearing that like if I did that I'd be in so much trouble. And the house had a car in it and why are they laughing? And so what do you tell yourself as a kid? This thing that seems horrible and not okay is okay and we laugh about it. And so it even sets my, my perspective of life. It creates this incongruency in myself of not even, not even knowing how to trust my own thoughts and what I believe because of my environment, laughing about these things.

And as I've worked with individuals throughout my career, one of the most interesting elements is when they can take that experience that maybe their thoughts were discounted or they were told to minimize it, or it wasn't that big of a deal. And they congruently say, but it felt wrong, dad, or it was wrong, whoever. And that kind of congruency finally is this integrity of, no, it did hurt, it was difficult, it was painful. And I'm finally saying that as a 40 year old, that to me is when we get to that personal honesty of no, that hurt me, that was wrong. And that kind of honesty is, I think, what David Viscott's talking about. If you lived your life honestly, your life would heal itself. Because you're being congruent with, wait, this doesn't feel right. This feels off. This is wrong.

I'm reminded of a story I'm going to be really careful here with one of my kids. They were very young, probably seventh grade, and they had to do a big presentation in front of the whole school and something happened that was so, so utterly humiliating. And she came home and we just had to say, this is horrible, this is awful. You feel so bad right now and you have every right to feel this way. In a couple of years we might look back and laugh on it, but right now, boy, this was really hard. And so making space to have those emotions and recognizing later on we'll say, oh, that was a bad experience. I believe when we honor those emotions in that space, in that time, it takes away that emotional energy. It doesn't get stored inside of us. And later on we can look back on it and we're not carrying it.

With us anymore because you were allowed or teaching your child to be allowed with, this was hurtful, this was wrong. It's when we can't be congruent with our emotions that we get confused because we feel one thing and we're being told to feel another thing. It wasn't that big of a deal as an example or. Or just get over it. And when we do that, then we're basically being taught to distrust our own self, our own emotions.

Another facet of this that I see so much with my clients. I don't know how many times I hear people say, I couldn't say that because that would hurt their feelings. I call it caretaking or protecting the other person. And so I might feel something, and I hold it in because I don't want you to feel bad. And so I can't tell this person this. And, boy, I think we get into a lot of trouble because once again, we don't get to have that congruency with honesty, with ourselves. And so I've got this incongruency if I'm showing up this way with you, but this isn't really how I really feel. But I'm pretending like I feel this way because I'm worried that you can't handle that you can't handle it.

And in essence, we're putting on a mask there. How are you, Marianne? I'm fine, but if I'm attuned, I might recognize something feels off there. But more often than not, we're taught, you know, put on that happy face. And so in social situations, perhaps we put on those masks because we don't know what to do with it. Do they really care? Should I tell them? Can I tell them? Should I not tell them? And so how are you? Do I really tell you how I'm feeling? Been a hard day. And if I was to say that to you, how would you respond? You're in a hurry.

Yeah. Oh, crap. Now I have to sit and listen why his day is bad and why he's not doing well. And it was just a simple greeting as we were passing each other. I didn't really want to know all of this.

Maybe I should change how I asked my question. Yeah, but in a meaningful relationship, that question really could elicit something that's a meaningful dialogue. Yeah, it's been a rough day. Hey, tell me about that. Oh, that sounds hard, right? And so are we in an environment where we can be honest, or do we feel like we have to put on a mask, hide our true feelings and true thoughts? Because when we have to do that over and over and over and over again, I can't be congruent with you, because if I am, it's going to create a problem in our relationship or you're not going to hear me. And so now nobody cares. And Now I'm actually not being even honest because I don't. I don't know who I can be honest with.

I'm going to share with you. I have a special mug that I use with my clients. So for those of our listeners who are viewing, I'm going to share this mug. If you can see it, it says someone's therapist knows all about. And every time we have this conversation with clients, we talk about. Your job is to be honest with yourself and other people's. Their responsibility, especially if they're adults, is to take care of their own emotions. I can't take control. I can't manage. I can't take responsibility for your emotions. And if somebody doesn't like what I say or what I do, their job is to talk to their therapist about it or to get the support that they need and work through, because maybe I said something that triggered something inside of them and they need to maybe figure that out or come to me and we can have a conversation about it. But somebody's therapist might know all about me, and that's okay. I hope they do, because hopefully then they're working through whatever that is for them. I often will have somebody who's acted out sexually say, I can't tell her that because I just need to protect her. That would be too hard for her. And I do have a gut reaction to that in that that is never about protecting the other person. That is about protecting ourselves from the truth. And I know that might feel a little bit strong to say, but I really think we have to stop and look and say, who am I really trying to protect? Is it really about them? Or is it really about me trying to spare myself some discomfort? They might be mad, they might be angry, they might end the relationship. And is that me not wanting to tell them because I want to protect myself from that.

And this is one of the core questions I think I've heard over and over throughout my career. Should I tell? Should I share? And as a professional, my experiences are. Secrets are the most damaging to relationships. And even in the concept of I'm protecting my spouse from knowing how then does that influence me when I interact with you? Because I have the secret, then I have to put on a mask, I have to put on a face. I have to say something or do things to make it seem like everything's okay. Or if I. In some situations, I'm just anxious or I'm just depressed, but it's not the reason that I'm actually giving, because I'm not able to be congruent or honest with you. So there is power. As David Biscott says, your life would heal itself if you were honest.

In the 12 step traditions, there's a slogan that says, our secrets keep us sick, or we are as sick as our secrets. And I think when we look at that, if our whole system is built on secrets, there's a lot to that. I want to pivot just a little bit, though. I do believe that our secrets keep us sick, and we need to get secrets out. And there is freedom saying, I don't have to keep the secret anymore. I full heartedly believe that. And I do believe that sometimes there's a need for boundaries. Yes, our partner needs to hear the truth. But as you know, we've done a podcast just recently about disclosures. There are certain things that sometimes our partners might need help preparing to hear, and we might need help preparing to share the information with them. Because if I've been holding the secret, it's also not right just to dump that completely on my partner. And so I want to be very clear. We're not saying, don't keep secrets, and we're saying we want to be honest. And we also might need some help when we're sharing important information.

This topic is really one that we have to spend some time thinking through, because what we're in essence asking the question is, is honesty always the best answer? Is it always the best answer? So you come to me and say, hey, do you like my dress? Well, let's say I don't like your dress.

Dr. Spinner, what do you think about my new dress today?

It's fine.

Oh, well, what do you mean it's fine?

And even in the answer now, it was too vague, right?

Yeah.

So you're looking for a yes or a no? I. It or I didn't like it.

What I'm looking for is that dress looks great.

But what if I don't feel that way, Marianne?

So give me. Give me the honest answer that is appropriate. That's honest. Because I know where we're going. You know where we're going.

But. But what I'm trying to say here is, even there, people get stuck. It's like, well, do I. No, I don't like your dress. Yeah, but could I do that even a better way? You know, I really like the blue one better. Yeah, now that. That feels a little bit more warm, kind. And. And so even the concept of honesty, I could be so honest that I actually could damage the relationship. I'm just telling you how I Feel.

Sure. And you could also say, that dress is a nice dress, but I like your blue one better.

Right.

That one doesn't look as flattering on you. I don't think that one's quite as flattering. I really like your blue one better.

Softer ways in softer ways. So that when we look at the concept of honesty. But honesty in. Do you like my dress versus did I have an affair or not? We're not even in the same ballpark there.

Yeah.

And that's where I think sometimes people get confused. Well, I don't want to hurt your feelings. And that's where I think that self deception comes into play. I don't think you can handle it.

Okay, so let's do that. So, Dr. Skinner, I'm going to say I just found some stuff on your phone. Are you having an affair?

And if I was having an affair, my common response of what people are going to say, no.

Okay.

What makes you say that? I mean, my goodness, you've been accusing me. I know your dad cheated on your mom, but it seems like you've been accusing me your whole marriage.

So now you've just flipped it around and I'm questioning myself even though I've got the information right in my hand. Let's do that again, though. I'd love to hear, like, how do you do that in the. I like the blue dress better. It's a little more flattering in that.

In the context of an affair.

Yeah.

Okay.

I just found some stuff on your phone. I don't even know what to think. Are you having an affair?

For the longest time, I've been wanting to talk with you about this. And the answer is yes, I have been.

Wow. And then I'm speechless because I don't even know what to say. And I may go to anger, I may go to rage, I may shut down, I may go to tears. There's so much there.

So there's the honesty. I've been wanting to talk about this for the longest time. And so in that context, yes, there's honesty. Now the journey begins.

I'm thinking even a response to that might be something like, I haven't been faithful to you, and there's some things that I need to talk to you about. And I know that we probably need to get some help to have a conversation that I think will be really hard. And I want to make sure that I prepare so I can share with you.

No, we got to talk about this now. I mean, you can, you know, right now. We have to talk about this now. You're not going to get away from this. You just told me that you did something, so let's talk about it.

Yeah, I have done some things, and I want to make sure that you have the support and that I have the support so that we can have the. This really hard question. Well, you're gonna pin me to the wall and it will keep going. Yeah. I know that you're. You're scared right now. Let's talk about. Let's.

Scared. You haven't seen it. You haven't seen scared yet.

Oh, you're right. It makes sense. I have been telling myself that I've been protecting you by not telling you, and that's not okay. I need to tell you, and I need some help putting together the words. And I really want to make sure we both touch base with our therapists and get some help to do this in the right way. I can tell you that, yes, I have betrayed you.

And in most cases, they're going to ask, you know, who was it? What was it? How many? Right. And so we're going to go. And most couples are going to do that on their own.

Yeah.

Right. Because because of this moment, I'm going to be gathering data, gathering information.

Yeah. What's tricky is the research says that even when we share information that most of the time we still hold back a lot of information.

So that's why in earlier podcasts, we talked about a formal disclosure where all of that information is put out there. So the process of honesty is a developing in this situation over time. But the honesty was, yes, I've had an affair, or yes, I was cheating. The details will be. The rest of that, that will be over time put on the table through a formal, proper disclosure. So that. That's an example. Was there honesty? Yes. And we're waiting for more information.

Dr. Skinner, would that be. I really want to have this conversation with you. I know that you just saw that and you have a bunch of questions. I'd really like to talk to you after we get the kids to bed tonight.

So put it in the right context of timing, which could be very, very important. And sometimes the questions that are being asked, it requires time to think through all of the answer, because that's where the partial disclosure comes into place, is, well, you told me this, but now I know this, and now there's this and there's this. And that's why when you were saying earlier, I need to put all this together so I can be completely honest and truthful with you is a foundation of I have to go reflect now and be able to be prepared to answer all your questions.

There's that research from Peggy Vaughn.

Yeah.

Regarding the couples that talk about things. Right.

So 8% of couples who talk about the details are more likely to stay married, in contrast with those who don't talk about the details, and that's 55%. So, again, there's a significant increase in success for couples who talk about the details. And I think it's honestly because of honesty, because when we don't have full honesty or transparency, we ask the questions, who is this person? What are they capable of? Is there more? And that kind of honesty, if I don't know who you are, my autonomic nervous system says, I've got to be careful here. So I think that's why in the 12 step program, rigorous honesty is being honest with self and then being honest with the people around us. Then, Marianne, if we look at the 12 step program, why is rigorous honesty there's? It's there because we now understand that it frees the person from secretive behavior. So when we're honest, we're taking out secrets because secrets are damaging to us individually and to relationships. I want to go to Anna Lemke's work on Dopamine Nation, Marianne, where she starts talking about how honesty does something to the mind that excites this part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, which actually helps us be more capable of emotional regulation.

Our prefrontal cortex is the part of our brain that develops between 16 or 18 to 8, 26, 28. And this is really our thought, our judgment. This is a bad idea. This is why teenagers make such bad choices, because their prefrontal cortex has a. Hasn't really formed, and so they don't think this is going to be a bad idea. So this is forming during those early adult years. So you're saying when we are radically honest, when we are honest with ourselves and others, that actually activates that part of our brain that's more about the thought, the judgment. This isn't a great idea.

And that's what Anna Lemke says in her book Dopamine Nation. So, yes, I am saying that, and I would also add to that that when we are honest in some situations, it's a confession. And there's phenomenal research on the power of confession and what that does for our mind and our mental health and our bodies. And this is true of all of us. Being honest with ourselves, being honest with other people. It's a mental health construct. It's Healthy for us in our mental health arena. Because when I'm not being honest, my mental health is going to suffer. And to me, that's fascinating.

And I want to look at that through a rupture and repair lens. When we're looking at relationships, I think the sturdiness of the relationship really comes down to how do we deal with the ruptures, how do they repair? And what I think is so important is if I've been betrayed by my partner, here's what I hear all the time. And I think the research absolutely validates this as well. It's not usually about the behavior. Yes, the behavior hurts, but it's about the lies. It's about the dishonesty. It's about the behaviors that went on behind my back. It's about the me not knowing and being in this relationship. That was not my reality, not what I thought. That is the damage. So when we're talking about betrayal, trauma, the trauma is actually being betrayed, being led to believe that my reality is what it's not. That is where the damage and the pain and the hurt come. And so if we're looking at how to build the relationship, it's about, there's a rupture. Something happened. Now how do we repair it? When we're. When we go to the doctor and we have a wound, they de bride it. They clean it out. They clean out all the pus, all the muck. It doesn't just get better by putting a band aid over it. It's got to get cleaned out, disinfected. And this is with our relationships. We need the rupture, and then we need that repair part. And that, I really believe, is the resilience of the relationship. Can we talk about it? Can we be honest? Can we step into responsibility? I hurt you. I did something that I'm ashamed of, and that I know that hurt you. Can I take responsibility for that? Versus earlier, when we were talking about the dress? You know, we can get into the gaslighting. We can get into the pushing it back when we get into our patterns versus taking responsibility.

So, Marianne, I want to look at this in an additional way. You can also get to the point where people are overwhelming the system with their honesty. I had a bad thought, had a bad thought, had a bad thought, had a temptation, had a craving. I saw a person on the street, and I'm so overtly this and this and this and this that. It's like, tiger. There's a tiger. Another tiger.

Yeah.

And so we also have to be cautious with this mindset of, should I tell my spouse this? Should I tell them that? And. And I've seen that where people are so overwhelmed by what. What should I share? What is rigorous honesty, that they overwhelm their partner or they overwhelm people? Because I got to tell you about this. I got to tell you about this. I got to tell you about this. I've seen that people do that with religious leaders. I've seen that with a spouse. I've seen them try to do it with me. I've got to confess this. I've got to put it out there. I've got to be honest. What do you think about that? And what would you say to somebody who is concerned about what's the proper balance between being honest and being so overwhelmingly honest that it's overwhelming the system?

So what you're saying is we're switching. We're swinging the pendulum to the other side. And what I find is that that's a pretty normal reaction oftentimes when we're saying, oh, I was this way. I lied about everything. So now let me be completely honest about everything. And I'm not trying to say we let our pendulum of honesty slide into the middle, but I think that there's a balance. And I. Before I completely respond to that, I want to just also point out that for a betrayed partner, there may be, like, I want to know every single detail. I am going to be scrabbling around inside your brain asking you all the questions. And so that dynamic also happens as well. And once again, I think that there's a healthy space in the middle. I had a client recently tell me it was a betrayed partner. She needed every single detail. And we talked a lot about, like, what is that helping you with? Why do you need that? And it was so hard for her spouse because he didn't want to pull everything up all the time just to tell her. And so they were in this interesting dance. And so we did a lot of work regarding accountability and transparency. And this was after they've done the disclosure. I want to make sure that's very clear. But I look at accountability and transparency. A captain on an airplane saying, hey, everybody, we're glad you're on our flight, by the way. We had a mechanical error, and we need to get some people to look at it. And so sit tight. We're going to get you comfortable. And. And then they go talk to their mechanics, and they figure out what's going on and they fix it. And they say, okay, we've been able to address the problem, and we will now be on our way. Now, in a relationship, I look at that same transparency versus accountability is something happened, like in a daily check in, something happened. And I want to let you know that I struggled and I might give a little bit of dimension of how big it was because my partner might not know. And here are the things that I did to fix it, and here are the things that I'm doing to move forward. The partner can then go, oh, okay. I can see they're taking responsibility and I can ask more questions if I need to, but I might not need to. Now, going back to the client that I was talking about, what I loved seeing recently was coming from this place of I need all these questions answered to every minute detail. They've said, something happened. Do you need or want to hear more? And then my client can say, yeah, I do have a few more questions, or no, that's enough. I just need to know that that's where you're at and you're struggling with that and you're aware of it, you're accounting for it, and you're working on it.

Yeah.

So that gives me, as a betrayed partner, choice to decide, is my system ready for it, am I in the place for it? And. And maybe I need to have a conversation with you about it later, but I'm not ready for it right now.

Yeah. And I think this is such an important topic, and this is something I really want to emphasize. I think every couple has to learn how to do that dance independently, rather than saying, well, then they did it this way and they did it this way. Because some people can't take that. It's just too much information. And other people, they want to know every detail, which is also unhealthy for them because it's overwhelming them and they're autonomic nervous system is not getting a break. So that's where we as clinicians try to help them transition. The person who has been unfaithful in whatever way might have a different accountability. A sponsor or a group that they're reporting to rather than the spouse who is really. It should be in the role of being a spouse, not a sponsor or an accountability partner.

Their accountability partner, absolutely.

But early on, we find that that's really common with many couples as they try to make sense of this experience.

So.

And sometimes people don't have an accountability team or a sponsor yet. And so again, every case has to be taken individually, what's possible, what's not possible. But I will tell you long term, I'VE never seen a successful case in terms of really healing. When the spouse continuously has to have all the data, all the data, or the person feels like they have to share all the data, all the data, because I think it's overwhelming their bodies.

It's just so much, I think, really what we're talking about, what it comes down to, it's all about safety. That's our bottom line. We're talking about when it feels like my partner's being safe, when it feels like my partner's showing up and they're open and as hard as the conversations are, they're able to have conversations. That creates safety for me, that creates trust for me. Even if it's a hard conversation, it builds more trust for me to have a hard conversation with my spouse when they're showing up saying, here are the things that I did that I'm not proud of, that I know hurt you, but it's more important for me to be honest with myself and honest with you than to hide and to minimize. That actually builds trust, as hard as it is.

Right. So the phrase I'm having, I've been having a little bit more difficult time. I'm trying to work through that. Here's what I'm doing in contrast, I'm fine. Yeah, I'm doing fine. You might be doing fine, but the body energy, what you're actually saying is incongruent with fine. And so many times I've worked with individuals who are like, I just can't tell. So even here, the honesty is I am struggling, I am having a hard time, or, you know, it's been a really good week and I wanted to share that with you. And it's even better when the person who has acted out will go to a partner and say, hey, I just want to report how my week's been or how this time has been. That is so much more effective than the spouse saying, how you doing? How are you doing? How are you doing? It's just a different way of showing I'm going to be honest. And that is bringing it to the forefront if you're the person who is acting out. And I think that's a way of making amends by not asking your partner to do all the work for, are you safe? Are you doing okay?

Trying to figure it out.

I think it's a gift that you give to help in that amends making process.

I'm so glad you said that word gift, because I wholeheartedly agree it is a gift. And one of the tools that I Love to have my clients who've acted out use is just to send an email each day, the end of the day to their partner. Here's what's been going on, here's where I'm at. Maybe I'll read it tomorrow or the next day if things feel like they're fine. So I'm not really worried or if things feel off, I can go, oh, let me go back and let me just check and see. Because even if he's saying I struggled or I didn't struggle, I can read a lot in his words by tone and context. It helps me validate and make sense of my reality. And it is a gift to be able to say, here's some insight to where I'm at right now.

And with that I want to also be cautious. Some couples can do that every day and some can't. And so again, this is understanding where you are as a couple and knowing what is that frequency? What is that cadence in talking? But if there has been some form of betrayal and dishonesty, even with money or other things, that type of personal honesty in the relationship is going to help you have a deeper connection. If you're going to have a connection. If not, then what your partner is going to be wondering is how are you? And when there's that big question mark, there rarely does that go very well. Because I'm more hesitant, I don't feel safe. I'm like, should I bring it up? I don't want to fight. And so there's a lot of internal dialogue that's taking energy away from the relationship. And if you were the person who acted out by saying, hey, I wanted to just report how I'm doing, not only am I saying it's a gift, it actually takes less mental bandwidth for your partner and for you. Because like, should we talk about it? Should we not talk about it? Having a plan, even if it's once a week or twice a week or every day, but just understanding, even if it's a healthy check in. Hey, how was your day? We're not always talking about a fear of a relapse. We might just say, what were you thinking? Or what were you experiencing today? Some of the highlights. So positive things as well. I think it's healthy for us as couples to do regular check ins regardless of where there's relapses. It's how are you?

One of my favorites. I call it Sarges. And it's a struggle. Here's a struggle that I had today. Doesn't need to have to do anything with addiction or betrayal. Just here's something I was struggling with today. Here's an affirmation. Here's something that I appreciate that I saw today. R is recovery. I went to a group, I listen to a podcast. G is growth. Here's something that I'm working on, a goal or how I'm growing. A gain that I had today that I'm excited about. E here's an emotion that I'm working on and s, here's what I did for my self care. Something as simple as that. Here's how I am. Here's what's going on. I think this is at stages. When I was first betrayed, I wanted nothing to do with a check in. I wanted nothing to do really with where my partner was. That was too much. And that changed over time. But at first it was too triggering. And so for every couple, you've got to figure out what works best for you. And if there is chronic lying, if there's chronic acting out over and over again, that can be way more triggering. I think that is where some boundaries come in. Once again, that's too much for me. I'm not ready to hear that right now. I need a little bit of space to do my healing.

And one of the things I would really just emphasize here, every couple has to do it their way. They need to learn how to do that dance. And I often hear people say, well, that's what the therapist said. That therapist may have said it for that specific couple. And that's one of my biggest concerns in even doing a podcast is, well, Dr. Skinner. Marianne said, well, I'm much more comfortable when you as a couple figure out how to do this dance because ultimately you're the ones dancing together. We're educational, we're information. But learning how to do that as a couple, boy, that's power in your relationship when you learn how to communicate honestly and authentically. And I could even take this honesty a step further. Am I honest with my emotions? Right. How was your day? I've struggled. I had a hard day just dealing with my boss or I'm tired. I didn't sleep as well last night. That too is honesty. Because if I'm not talking about those emotions or those things that I'm experiencing and you don't know, you might be interpreting me in a way that I don't intend it to be.

I think even one step further with that, Dr. Skinner, is I may be keeping myself so busy or so numbed purposefully so I don't have to be Honest with myself. I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see where I'm at. I don't want to admit or acknowledge it to myself or anybody else. And so I am doing everything that I can to avoid and put up barriers.

And that is dishonesty. With yourself. Yeah, right. When we're running from our own emotions, and I say that to all of us, that's not just a person acting out, that's someone who's been betrayed. That's me every day, that's you. We all have to figure out what is today about what am I experiencing and what are these emotions that are here with me today. And when I do that, Marianne, then I'm more congruent with myself. A friend of mine once said the concept is integrity, being whole, being complete. I can't be whole and complete when I'm not being honest.

I think, going back to what you said earlier, Dr. Skinner, it's so important just to reiterate that these are principles that we're sharing. These are concepts and principles that are overarching. That when we are honest with ourselves, when we are honest with others, there's freedom that comes. We don't have to hide. And we can have honest conversations where we can rupture and repair. We can repair the ruptures that occur and, and we've talked about examples and we've talked about different scenarios. But once again, I love what you said, that this is not therap that we're doing right here. These are principles that we're sharing and they have to be applied in different ways in our listeners or viewers lives, depending on your different situations.

And as we get ready to close today, Healthiest me has done some introspection to identify my thoughts, my emotions, my struggles, and having someone that I can turn to and say, hey, I'm feeling this. That type of emotional honesty is so healing. I love what Thich Nhat Hanh said. He said in Plum Village, we get together and we will sit down and do a listening meditation, a deep listening meditation where somebody could get there and they would just talk for an up to an hour. And they said we might not even understand or agree with them. But while they're talking, we're trying to meditate upon what's actually being said. Deep listening to hear what's being said. And he said, if everybody had that kind of somebody, a Plum Village group, there wouldn't be no recourse for therapy because I can go be in this place and I can speak My truths. And I think that's a beautiful way of looking at this. If we don't have a place to go with what our internal battles are, boy, I'll tell you what, I can get real sick inside myself quickly with my own thoughts pinging around. So being able to come to somebody and say, I need another set of eyes, or I need another mind or brain on this, whatever it is, that type of openness creates a connection. Because now I'm being vulnerable and saying, I need support or I need help with this. And that's also relationship building.

And what's so important with that is sometimes, as we talked about with disclosure, but sometimes we need a group or a therapist. You know, one of the biggest gifts I receive as a therapist is when my client says, I've never told anybody this before, or I've never even realized this before. And it's like this moment of honesty with myself, and now I'm sharing it with you. Marianne, I. That's beautiful. But we might need spaces to explore and figure out and make sense of and prepare. And oftentimes we even role play with our clients to help them find their words, because these are often things that have never been spoken out loud. And. And so having the proper time and preparation as well. And whether that's a therapist or also with a group. And one thing I love about groups is when a group's like, man, that stinking thinking. And I can say, oh, this is going on. And a group says, yeah, you're pretty off with that. And calling that out can be so helpful as well. And so we do need those supports in those groups. And yes, we want honesty in our primary relationships, but sometimes we need some outside support and help to help us get there and to really work through. And what happens if we let go of the outcomes when we show up? Sometimes there's freedom there, but there's also a lot of fear there. And so we need each other, and we need to be able to have those places to show up for ourselves and for all of our relationships.

And I want to just give a shout out to some people that I interact with. I've been working with these individuals as a educational support group for over a year and a half. And I love it when they say, grateful Recovering addiction. Their honesty is inspiring, right? And when they continuously make those efforts and strides to reclaim the parts of their life that were secretive or hidden, I applaud the recovery journey. I applaud everybody who enters into this space of, I'm just going to be a healthy human being. I'm going to be honest. I'm going to move forward and I'm going to have healthy relationships. So, Marianne, my final thoughts are if we're going to live, let's live in honesty.

Doctor Skinner, I love that. I think one of the things that draws us to each other as human beings, where we attach and bond, is when we're vulnerable with each other. And the lie that we often tell ourselves is that I'll be rejected and abandoned. But that's usually where we are drawn and where we connect is in authenticity, in pain, in vulnerability. And just as you said that, the gift of being able to watch that and to witness that, it's incredible. And so, as we wrap up today, I would just add my final thoughts of inviting our listeners to look and see where do I need more honesty, maybe with myself and with others, and make one small goal to change something with that this week. So thank you to our listeners.

All right, you've been listening to the Human intimacy podcast with Dr. Kevin Skinner. Marianne Michaelis, thank you for your time. May you be blessed in creating the type of human intimacy that you long for in your life. Have a great week.

Laugh. When you laugh, something surround you. It's like you're shining. You're.