The Hidden Cost of Secrets in Relationships (Episode #80)

On behalf of me and Marianne Michaelis, I'd like to thank you for being a listener of our Human Intimacy Podcast this year. It's always a privilege to spend time with you and I want to express my deep gratitude. If you are ready to take your healing and recovery to the next level, you're ready to deepen your healing and strengthen your connection and gain real tools for meaningful change. I invite you to join us and other Experts at the 2nd Annual Human Intimacy Conference where myself, Marianne and many other leading experts will come together for powerful teaching, live question and answer sessions and provide insightful pre conference conversations to help you get the most out of your conference experience. And right now you can save 50% when you register before December 31st. Please don't miss this opportunity. Visit human intimacy.com and reserve your spot today.

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michael is licensed clinical social worker who practices up in Washington and I'm in Utah. And we have the privilege of doing the Human Intimacy Podcast. So today, Marianne, one of my topics that we've been talking about, bouncing back and forth for a few weeks, it's on secrecy and keeping secrets of what it's like in a relationship, what it does to individuals.

You know, Dr. Skinner, I think this is such an important topic because I know today we're going to be talking about not just the secrets that we tell other people, but also the secrets that we tell ourselves. Sometimes we stay in a state of denial or self deception because we don't want to really face or look at our reality. One of the things that I often see with clients is a belief that I have to keep a secret or lie or hide something because the other person can't take it. So I have to protect them. And so I'm really excited that we're going to delve into that today.

Yeah. And for me, I want to start in that space. You're just talking about the how we get to the mindset that we feel like my spouse can't handle that. And in some situations there may be some truth to that, but that form of self deception to get to that point almost always creates major issues because I'm trying to determine how you're going to respond in advance and not giving you the freedom to make that decision of how to respond on your own. The other part of it, Marianne, that actually is more concerning to me is what it does to the individual who's living in a secrecy. That deceptiveness, physiologically, what it does to them, how it influences how they approach the relationship, the stories they tell themselves. And by the time you start unpacking all of that, that's a really heavy burden to be carrying over and over, month after month or year after year. Marianne and I see people who have those types of secrets and we start breaking it down. They start to have ulcers and health issues and they start having physiological issues because they're living in deceptiveness. And that's a hard place to be.

You know, Dr. Skinner, what really I think is important with this is we have to look at the why. And so usually when we're saying this person can't handle the truth, usually that's a self protective behavior that's more about me not wanting to address conflict, me not wanting to have pain, me not knowing how or being able to have a really hard or difficult conversation or things changing and I'm not ready to have them change. It's usually more about my level of discomfort and what I'm trying to avoid.

And really then we put into that equation, Marianne, the concept of not wanting to be seen. Because when I keep a secret, it's usually because I don't want other people to see what's actually happening. I don't want them to know because if they knew the details, they would reject me, they wouldn't want to be with me. And so the whole interpretation is I don't believe that other people can handle. And really I don't know if I can handle it myself.

So what you're talking about is that vulnerability and the shame. The shame if they knew, if they really knew. So we're talking more about like the hiding the secret if others knew, or if I show up in this place and let this out or talk about it or address it, I'd be cut off. We're wired for connection. We're wired to connect. We're social creatures. That's what we need. And that feels life threatening, or it can.

And so when we start to break it down, we see the reason for it. I'm afraid of rejection. I'm afraid that I won't belong. I'm afraid that I'll be put out, so to speak. And so that secret then stays inside. It reminds me of the work by Dr. James Pennebaker. It always amazes me when I look at this research of what happens when individuals are not able to talk about details of their lives, both positive or negative. And I remember one study where he was looking at individuals who had good news. I'd gotten into a sorority or something positive. I got a raise at work, but maybe they couldn't tell other people. And in one case, it was this girl who'd got into a specific sorority, and she was so excited, but her best friends didn't. And so she was the only one accepted in. And so she didn't know how to deal with that. And that was an example of, even if I have good news, it has negative effects on my health and on my emotional depression or anxiety when I can't speak to those things. Taking that in context, what happens when I have this hidden behavior, this secretive behavior that I'm not able to talk about, and it's growing inside of me, I think, much like a virus or an illness, and it just grows and grows and grows, because what do I do with my secret? I'm going to go to my grave with it. We often hear people say, I was going to go to my grave with this. And then either they got caught or they realized, I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to be true and authentic me.

You know, as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about some of Dr. Peter Levine's work, and I believe it's in an unspoken voice. He talks about the energy of emotions. When we're looking at the energy of emotions, if we take a garage door spring, there is so much tightness and energy in that. If we were to let go of that, it could kill you. There's so much energy there. But so if we have this spring, we're pulling it really tight. That's what happens when we've gotten an emotion inside of us. There's this energy that's happening, and when we let that spring go, it will bounce all over until it's expended, the energy. And so if we are carrying that inside of us, this energy, these emotions that we're carrying inside. So if we're looking at the physiological impacts of this energy that's not coming out of us because we're carrying it, we either have to dissociate where we're kind of stepping into a false reality and we're putting on a show, and we might even start to believe, like, where we're at. So we might compartmentalize it and put it away, but it doesn't mean that energy is gone. That energy is still there. And so it wears on us. It wears on us, and we've got this anxiety. What's going to happen if they find out. So now I'm on guard. I might be more in fight or flight because I'm trying to manage the situation. I'm trying to make sure and manage what's happening and what information is coming out and, you know, making sure everything goes along with my story. That's exhausting.

A few years ago, I was reading about when a person tells a lie, what happens with that lie. And I don't know how accurate this is, but they kind of tracked it. And if you tell one lie, it breeds into like 15 other lies. I mean, that was the kind of the concept. And I don't. Again, I don't know if that's an accurate number. So please don't, you know, hold me to that. But I think the concept is what I'm most interested in there, Marianne. When I tell a lie, then I do have to figure out how to cover it up, how to hide it. And even in this situation that we deal with, often when people are in relationships and they're not telling the truth, and I want to just put it in simple context. I've had situations where people lie about things that you would say, why would you lie about that? You know, you went to McDonald's or you went to Wendy's and you had a hamburger and you come home and are you hungry? Oh, no, I haven't eaten. So, yeah, I'm hungry. Because they didn't want to reveal that they had gone to some place, like, why would I choose to lie about that? And there's a whole host of that perception. I don't want to be caught. I don't want to be in trouble, and I don't want you to be mad at me. And often I find that individuals who are chronic liars, they either do it because it gets them attention, in some ways it's actually exciting for them. But more often than not, it's, I don't want to be in trouble. And they learned as a child that they could be good liars. And it also would be, like, somewhat exciting to them because they could get away with something.

You know, as you say that, Dr. Skinner, I'm so glad you went there, because even you saying, like, I don't know, like, I didn't do that, like, I can feel that energy of a really young child, we can feel that that means that we haven't matured emotionally to be. To a place where we can deal with the conflict. And so when we step into that place, we are really regressing back to a very child position. And So I could just feel that energy as you were stepping into that place.

My hand wasn't in the cookie. What are you talking about? So now I'm even gaslighting, right? That. That deceptiveness, because maybe I have been caught. Go to the back of the car and find the. Well, what are these rappers doing here? Why are you. Why do you lie to me about those things? And then it's through the deceptiveness makes. Which makes the partner think, who is this person? Right. That. That deceptiveness really has a lasting consequence because it's not being authentic or real.

Years ago, we were walking home from church on a Sunday, and there was a bakery outlet on our way home, and my brother came home with white powder all over his face.

And he did not have.

He did not have any donuts. There was no way he had a donut up and down the wall.

No.

Yet we all were like, clearly, you've got powdered sugar all over your face. And like, is it appropriate for a child to. Who's learning how to navigate the world? That's a natural stage that children go through of lying, but it doesn't work. But it's a stage. It's a developmental stage that we move through. And so I think it's a really good indication there's definitely some work that needs to be done when we get stuck in that space as adults.

Yeah. And I'll never forget 2013 at the certified sex addiction training that I was doing, and Patrick Carnes was there, and he said things. A statement that just has stuck with me over and over, and I've used it in almost everything that I do in training. And it's basically this. When people relapse, it's one of two reasons. One is they have secrets, and the other is that they don't have enough structure. I think that when I'm in secrecy, it also allows me to continue a behavior, because either I'm getting away with it or I'm not being accountable for it. So it's enabling it. It's allowing it to continue. And so in that secrecy, I am more likely or more prone to continue relapsing.

So let's talk for a minute about how that impacts a relationship. So if we're. We're looking at that, I can imagine if I'm hearing this and I have a partner who has been chronically deceptive, I can imagine that. That what you just said is really alarming. Oh, what I just heard then, Dr. Skinner, is that my partner will continue to act out, and I Won't know.

It that that's possible. But I want to put it in a couple of other things. Perhaps a person doesn't tell their spouse, but they're talking with a therapist. So there is some accountability. So it's usually that concept is I'm not talking with anybody about it. Right. And so it's my own internal battle, what I refer to as flying completely solo. Like, I'm doing everything on my own. That's the greater risk. And so when there's no talking about it and you're fighting this battle by yourself. Yeah, I think that is. You're more at risk. And I think if I look at the other side of this coin, when I look at clients who are making the greatest progress, they have multiple people with whom they're being accountable. Sometimes it's a sponsor, sometimes it's group members, and sometimes it's their spouse. But there is an accountability. Because I don't want to fight the battle by myself. Is what we actually get to the point to, like, why would I fly solo when I could have a group of people supporting me in one of this more difficult changes in my life? And when my clients understand that concept and they start flying with wingman, as I often say, then we actually do phenomenal things and the progress is accelerated. And that's one of those things that I look at the group that I run. I love these guys. They support each other, they're strengthening each other. And it's so much fun to watch when they talk, encourage each other. And when you start hearing success and seeing that the energy changes, their energy changes. Because no longer are we living in this deceptiveness that is almost. It's so freeing.

Marianne, I. I love that. And if I can take that one step further, if we're looking at a relationship at a couple, one of the things that I talk with my clients about quite a bit, and sometimes it feels really alarming. But when I'm looking at recovery, this other element for the couple is if I'm acting out with sexual acting out behaviors and. And I'm keeping secrets, or I've been keeping secrets, my partner, they become complicit in keeping my secrets. And that tears you apart, saying, like, I can't even embrace my own reality of trying to figure out where I'm at because my partner's asking me to not say anything. And so it's like this double bind that we get into. One of the things that I love and where I really see progress for the coupleship, but for healing for both Partners is when the acting out partner or the person who's been keeping secrets can show up and say, even to their partner's family, say, I need to let you know that I have hurt my partner. I've betrayed them, I've cheated on them, whatever that is. And they can use high level language or more detailed kind of depending on whatever the situation is. But at least acknowledging that that is stepping into the story, stepping into the responsibility, not just telling my partner, but telling the people around so that my partner can show up authentically and get the help from those wingmen. The support network that is needed and for both of us, both parts of the couple need to be able to have honest conversations, not just with themselves, but in their support networks to some degree at least.

Yeah. This is such a tricky question. So to our listeners, I want to give you a thousand caveats on this one because what I don't want you to hear is we need to go talk with people right now. That process is usually a painstaking. Who are we going to talk to? If we don't know how they're going to respond, then what are we going to do? I'll give a couple examples of this. A few years ago, I had an opportunity to talk with a couple. There was a tremendous impact on her and her relationship, but she had a really close relationship with her family. They collectively together decided, I don't think we're going to tell our families. It's just too much of a burden. But there was still inside of her a feeling that would often be described as, I can't be my authentic self anymore. I can't. I can't share what I'm experiencing. And my siblings have even said, are you doing okay? And that question I was not prepared for because they had observed something inside of her. She wasn't okay. They knew something, but they didn't know what. And that for her was devastating because I love my family. They're. They're caring, they're kind, they would be supportive. So I paused and said, why are you not sharing this? And I listened to their story and after they were done with that, he's like, we've got to tell your family. I don't. He did. Right. He said it. And honestly, it was like watching somebody who had just. It was like this load left, the burden had left. And it was caring, kind environment, which, which they had both anticipated a different outcome. That's one version. The other version is when we talk with people and they're hurtful in how they respond because sometimes There are family members that do more damage, what we might even call secondhand trauma, from just how they respond. And so I can't be authentic with you, and I can't tell you the truth. And because I did it, and now look what's happened. And so now I don't know who to turn to. Because I thought I could trust you. I thought I could turn to you. That, Marianne, is where I see it even more profound, because now I tried and I. So now I don't know who to trust. And now I feel like I've got a secret inside. Which leads me to the third part. If you don't have somebody and you don't know who to trust, begin with a therapist who understands betrayal or addiction, and turn towards opening up and making sure that there aren't secrets, you're able to speak your truth. But that's the power of a group, Marianne. That, for me, that's the power of a group, because sometimes there are outside people who can't. Sometimes they can. And in my research, I think about 50%, a little over 50%, said that, that when they reached out for people, what they got was mostly ineffective. So the power of a group, the power of having that voice, to me, Marianne, is I've seen over and over in my career, it is one of the lead indicators. It's what helps people accelerate their healing in a safe, connected, supportive group.

Yes. And I say amen to that. I would just also add that I agree that we are not saying, like, go out and tell everybody right now that that's absolutely not what we're trying to say. However, having a good therapist that can help you work through shame, because what we're talking about really, is the shame what happens if they know what happens if this gets out. This is all shame work. And so having a therapist that can help you work through the shame, work through role playing, it work through, like, figuring out how I'm going to do this and having a group. So working through that in therapy, preparing for it, and also going to your group and saying, I'm going to do this and I'm going to need some support, because it can go well, and it might not go well. I do believe there is that ripping off the band aid that does allow things to breathe. But when we do that, we need lots and lots of support and healthy, good support for both the betrayed partner and the partner who has been betraying. This is definitely something that needs to be worked through, because if it doesn't go well, then we can reach out to her and say, that was awful, that was horrible. And they can hold us. And the therapists can even, you know, through therapy, I've seen some clients do some really beautiful work in where it hasn't really gone well. And then we've been able to do some trauma work, and they've been able to have a reparative experience and let go of those emotions that they were carrying through the work that we've done in session, because it can still have a positive outcome for the client. And there's a continued support. This is continuing.

Yeah. If I could just emphasize this, every case is unique and needs to be treated in its own unique way. So what I say to one couple, I might not say to another couple. Right. And I remember a few years ago, it was a young person who had talked with a religious leader and was basically told, you need to tell your family. And it was like that religious leader's entire approach was, everybody, you've got to tell your mom and your dad. You've got to tell your mom and dad. You got to tell your mom and dad. Talking about accountability, which is a great concept. But what he didn't understand, that religious leader, is that not all parents are created equal. Because what that young man got from his mother in particular every day was a repent or go to hell scripture. And it was so shaming. And so you were, you're not worth it. You're losing it. You're. You're bad. And that was the message that came over and over through. You've got to get your act together. You've got to do this. And it was. For him, it was just so devaluing and rejecting that he almost had to. That experience. He had to learn how to separate from that toxic shaming environment for his ability to heal. And so when you go into an environment where you are not only trying to be vulnerable, because I think if we look at the other side of that, we're asking people, as they deal with secrecy, to lean into vulnerability. But if we're leaning into vulnerability in an environment that is going to be rejecting and punishing and negative over and over and over again, the healing doesn't really occur because I often ask my clients to be vulnerable, but I also have to be sensitive to being vulnerable. And maybe that's going to be an environment that they might be rejected and they may realize, I'm not going to be able to engage here much because it's not going to help me in my healing journey.

You know, Dr. Skinner, what I want to point out with what you shared is this client came to you because they needed help and support. They came to you as a safe place where they were trying to figure out this dynamic because of the relationship they were in, they were able to find, I'm assuming, some support from you as they figured out that person's shaming wasn't about your client, it was about the client's mother. That was her junk. And sometimes we do need that support, saying, maybe this isn't a healthy relationship right now, or that person's not in a healthy place, but that wasn't about your client. That was about the client's mother. And so being able to realize, hmm, maybe I do need some boundaries, maybe I do need some space, and I've got to find some supports in other places as I still try to figure out how to navigate where I'm at. I do hear you saying, like, that religious leader gave information. And that's the thing. We don't ever know how somebody will respond. And that vulnerability, that's the fear that I think we're talking about here. I'm afraid of the outcome, that I don't know what the outcome will be, and I might be shamed by my mom. And we need support.

And if that's the case, then what? Marianne like, so part of it is walking through. So when I'm working with my clients, one of the common things I say is, let's look at your support around you. How would this person respond, and how do you anticipate this one person would respond? And let's say that you are vulnerable and they do respond that way, then what? And so going back to the term we often use, proper preparation prevents a pound of pain, meaning spread this everywhere. I'm going to take it to specific individuals that I'm going to trust. I'm going to put vulnerability into this relationship because I believe that this is an important relationship. And so I'm going to try to be vulnerable here and learning how to do that. In fact, I even sometimes will prepare my clients. How are you going to see that? And what happens if they respond this way and what happens if they respond that way? And because their information, that data of how to do that, I don't think we naturally know how to do it. Marianne no.

And we need help from somebody else, somebody else's prefrontal cortex to help us walk through. What about this and what about this and what about this? And saying it out loud and putting it on the table and shining the light on it. That that's so Important. I want to back up though, to something that you said, because I think you'll agree with me, is we're saying every case is different and we don't want to say, hey, go do this, because every case is different. I do want to back up though too. I do believe that there is a blanket of agreement that we're saying for every case. We do need support, we need a group, we need healthy support that is just unilateral for any healthy healing of a relationship, we need outside supports.

So glad you went there because that was actually one of the next concepts. You may not know who your support team is, but having a support team is a lead indicator of successful healing and recovery for both a betrayed betraying. And I would actually take that away from just that. Overall, our mental health and well being when we have junk anxiety, depression, things that we are not able to talk about. I go to one of my favorite quotes by Thich Nhat Hanh, if you ever come join me for an intensive. One of my favorite exercises is what I learned from Thich Nhat Hanh. He said, we get together in Plum Village. I believe Plum Village is in France. And I love the way he describes this concept. He says, we get together and we do deep listening. We get together and we just meditate upon what this person is saying. A deep listening of what's actually transpiring in their world. And he said, we might not even agree with it, but we are with them in their experience. And he said, if everybody had that, they would not have a recourse to go to a therapist. I thought that's a fascinating line. Because when you have people that you can talk about your stuff, your junk, whatever it is, and you're not being rejected and there's people who are like, hmm, yeah, you can have that. It can be so healing. Everybody, he said, needs somebody.

And what you're talking about is just this deep, deep vulnerability when we're able to show up and be heard where we can show up. And it's not about me what you're saying. It's not about me, it's about you. Can I be with you present in this space? That is. Here's the surprising part that I want to be really clear about. When we keep secrets, we think that we're protecting ourselves. We think that we are protecting ourselves from not losing love when we are vulnerable, when we show up and we say, here's where I really am, here's where I'm really at, that actually deepens our connection. And so we Keep secrets to protect us from losing connection. But when we actually show up authentically and honestly, that drives that connection that we're seeking. It's the opposite of what we're. It keeps us further away from what we are actually seeking and wanting and needing.

Yeah. So I know I've said this different ways, different times, but as we look at human intume, see intimacy, it requires vulnerability, and it requires the light being shined inside of us to be seen. And when we don't want to be seen, we're uncomfortable being seen. What we're in essence doing is we're saying, there's something wrong with me, that I can't allow you into my world. That's really what it is. My shame, my. Whatever it is you don't want to see me. You don't want to see me is really what that's about. And I just reemphasize, when you see people shift from that silent, secretive, deceptive world and into a world of accountability in meaningful ways, that is extremely healing, powerful, connecting, and, dare I say, intimate. That's what we're looking for. Marianne. So I've got one more thing here. Anna Lemke, in her book Dopamine Nation, talked about this concept of honesty, rigorous honesty, a great chapter of just honesty. But one of my key takeaways from that chapter is the other side of this. When people are, what's the right way to say this? They're too verbally open to the point where it's almost exhibitionistic, and it's how they get their attention. There's a caution that she puts in there where people, not only they have no secrets, but it's almost like they get attention from the emotional intensity or barrage or exhibitionistic way that they speak about life.

Yeah. I think Brene Brown talks about it. I think she talks about calling it spotlighting. And we have to look at, am I sharing this because I want to be on the spotlight, because I want everybody to see me, because I wanted attention? We have to really look at our why underneath. Why am I sharing this? And we need to be really intentional about it.

Yeah. And I want to address one other part here, and that is sometimes people question as they go through the recovery process, am I sharing too much? Am I sharing not enough? There's this internal battle that I often hear with clients, and I have a general rule of thumb going back to I need to be talking with somebody about what I'm experiencing. So if I ever have that kind of question of, like, is this too much? Did I Do something wrong, talk with somebody. But that means that you have somebody to talk to. I've also seen it where they overwhelm a spouse with the data. And it's. In my experience, it's like, tiger, tiger, meaning there's a warning sign, warning sign, warning sign, warning sign. And if you're constantly doing that with your spouse, you're going to overwhelm their autonomic nervous system.

Break that down a little bit more. Because I'm. I'm not under. When you're saying tiger, tiger, meaning I'm. I'm a betrayed partner. Seeing a tiger everywhere and asking my.

Partner, because everywhere, because I say to Marianne, oh, I had this problem. I did this, I did this. And it's. It's so random that I never know what you did because you're always, oh, I did this. And this happened today. And so we actually overwhelmed the partner because it's like, I did this. And even if it was a smaller thing, that often overwhelms the betrayed partner, because they're like, every time I turn around, that's all we're talking about, is you did this, and you did this. That's why it's so important to have a sponsor, to have someone to still talk with that battle about. But you're talking about the battle. You don't want your spouse to be on the battlefield with you. That's where I see many couples make mistakes. They bring the spouse to the battlefield and say, well, are you hurt?

And I think what you're talking about is, like, every thought I had this thought here, I had this thought here. I was tempted here. I had this thought here. And what a betrayed partner. What a spouse that's wanting to build trust, really wants to hear is, I had some struggles today, and here's what I did to get through it. I reached out to my support group. I was really struggling. I called my friend Jimmy. That's what brings healing and trust. Is okay, great. Not. Not great that you're struggling. But I appreciate that you're showing up and helping me understand. But, yeah, I don't need to know every single stroke of the sword. I just need to know, am I safe? Yeah.

And that's something that I often get questioned about. What's too much, what's too right. If you're in a battle, you need to have somebody to talk to. So you're not flying solo, as we said. But the caution is if you're bringing your spouse onto the battlefield with you, it's. I want you to be the spouse not the accountability person, not the sponsor. Some people may do that in the beginning, but generally speaking my goal is to transition that to a sponsor and accountability team so your spouse can still get conversation and we can still talk about it. But it doesn't need to be day to day, moment by moment. Here's play by play of my day.

Yeah, and I would add to that because if you're really working recovery, it's more about what is seen and felt rather than, you know, our actions. And 97% of what we share is non verbal. And so what I what a partner may be picking up is am I safe and questioning? I'm not sure. But huh. It's about how our nervous system settles as well. I do want to shift just one other area of this that I want to make sure that we talk about and that's really looking at sometimes like if we're keeping secrets even as, as a group, if we're saying hey, there may be a whole group of secret keepers that are involved together, I think it's really important to look at that and say why? I think it's important to really look and say what is our purpose? What are we trying to avoid even together as a group? Because sometimes we may say that person, we can't talk about this because they can't handle it. And what we actually might need to be talking about is what's going on with that person that they can't handle it. What's really at issue here? Is it that we need to keep the secret over here from them or do we need to be addressing issue that's not being addressed? What are your thoughts on that?

I want to look at this from different ways because I throughout my career I've seen similar situations is as a group we decide that this person can't handle XYZ experience. That may or may not be true depending on their mental status. If they're say for example suicidal can understand certain things. But in general a group deciding that a person can't handle something. If you really want to give someone a really difficult experience, everybody knows but you because you can't handle it. That is emotionally non valuing, very painful. Going back to what you said, confronting the behavior, even if I was role playing with you, Marianne, I said let's just role play this just for a second. Would it be helpful to say to that person, we have something that's come up that's really important and we want to share this with you or I want to share this with you, but I have a concern and here's what I've been observing, and I'm concerned about this information of how it's going to influence you. Can we address that? Because I don't want secrets in our relationship. Because I want a deeper form of intimacy with you. And to not talk about this is also feeling like I would be ignoring a bigger issue.

So what happens if I come back with shame?

Say more.

What are you talking about? What's going on? Why wouldn't you tell me something like, I'm totally fine. What's going on? Yeah.

Okay, so perfect. And what you're saying is really important here because that was my fear as we were dealing with this. I was concerned that I wouldn't know how to convey this. Because I want to be open with you. And I do have a concern, and here's why. Here's what I've experienced. So I would go in with information and data, but I would address it that way. Here's what I've observed, and that was my concern, but I don't want secrets. That's why I'm coming to talk with you now.

What you're talking about, that's not even a problem. I don't even know what you're talking about. It's not a problem.

Okay, so you don't see these things as a problem.

Fine.

Okay. And that's concerning for me, Right? So if you don't see those as a problem, that's concerning for me. Because here's the information that I have, and that's why it's a concern for me. So here you saying that it's not a concern, that does concern me.

I don't know why it's concerning you, because it's not even a problem. It's just ridiculous. I don't know why we're having a.

Conversation, and I see that you don't see it as a problem, but I do feel it's a problem. And that's something we're gonna have to address because we don't see eye to eye on this.

This is a place where I think definitely, like, therapeutic support from network is going to be really important. So especially, you know, as I didn't see it was a problem. What do we do then?

Well, that's a great question. Because in that situation, I would respond with, help me understand. Here's the information that I have, whatever the issue is, here's the information I have. Help me understand why you don't see that as a problem. Because I. I'm obviously missing something here. You don't See XYZ behavior as a problem. Help me understand where you're coming from, because obviously I don't understand. So I'm asking for clarity and information. Be more specific. You're saying you don't see it as a problem. I've come with the information, and now I want to talk about your perception of that, why you don't see it as a problem.

You know, and as I'm hearing you say that, Dr. Skinner, I think I would also add to that, maybe even really stepping to my present personal state, really talking about how hard it is for me, what's going on for me, that it's not seen as a problem. So you've presented it and said, here it is. But if I'm defensive, I'm feeling blamed. And like, that shame wall's probably coming up. And so even stepping into. Let me tell you how that's impacting me. Let me tell you what's going on for me. When this happens. I feel really confused right now, and I don't know what to do. I feel scared. I feel scared because I see this happening and it's not a problem for you, but for me, it's a problem, and I don't know what to do with this. So really owning where I'm at with that, I think would also be helpful because once again, that's the stepping in with that vulnerability into that space that we really are aiming for.

And in this situation, most people, I think with that, your initial response would probably shut it down or it would escalate. And what you just did is, you know, I'm feeling. I'm experiencing that type of I statements, that type of experience of what's happening inside of us. And communicating that is a really critical part.

Yeah, it's really tricky to be defensive when somebody's saying, here's what I feel, what I'm experiencing. And once again, stepping out of the secrecy, stepping into the light and showing up and having the supports in case it doesn't go the way that I hope it will go.

Great conversation today, Marianne. I appreciate just this conversation. It's really enjoyable to get together and talk about these important issues to our listeners. We thank you for your time and we appreciate all that you guys are doing and just helping us promote this, because we know what you're doing. We know you're pushing the like button, and we also know that you're sharing it with your friends. So we appreciate you for doing that.

Thank you for joining us. And we hope this is helpful for each of our listeners that it will be something that will benefit and bless your lives as you work on creating places where you're showing up and deepening your relationships. Thank you for joining us today.

Yeah. And I'm gonna put one more plug in if you know somebody struggling with pornography. We're gonna be releasing our fourth episode soon on the Healing from pornography and rebuilding your life. It's now available on Apple and other podcasts where you ever get your podcast. So it's simply a podcast designed to help people wanting to recover from pornography use.

Awesome.

All right, everybody, have a good week. We'll be back with you next week.

All right, See you later.

Smile when you smile? And laugh when you laugh? Something's around you? It's like you're shining? You're staring.