Understanding Sexual Intimacy: Self-Awareness, Healing, and Connection in the Intimacy Triangle (Part 2) (Episode #106)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something surround.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelist, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, over the past few weeks, we've been talking about the intimacy triangle. Something that I. Over 20 years ago, I decided to kind of put it together to describe what I find is a healthy way of viewing intimacy. And today we'll finish up that part, part two of that conversation. But before we do that, Marianne, I want to talk a little bit about some of the things going on at the Human Intimacy Conference, the second annual Human Intimacy Conference on March 13th and 14th. We now have the schedule filled and we are about 30 days away. I can't believe it's 30 days away from this incredible opportunity to learn from experts, ask your questions. The live conference, and it is going to be recorded as well for individuals who can't make it. Marianne, I'm interested in your topic because I want to talk a little bit about what you're doing.

Dr. Skinner, I'm really excited for this conference. I had a client ask me this week, how much does it cost and why does it cost that much? And I want to speak to that here because we have therapists who are really top notch experts in betrayal, trauma, unwanted sexual behaviors. It's an amazing lineup of therapists. And for this conference that gives you a track on betrayal, trauma, a track on unwanted sexual behaviors, and a track on healing the couple. You get all of that for. For about the price of one therapy session, right? That's phenomenal. If you think about how much it would cost to sit down for an hour with each of these therapists who's presenting, the cost would be astronomical.

Literally thousands of dollars. Marianne. That's what it'd be. You get constant access to it, meaning once it's done, it's recorded, you can watch it over and over and over again. So, yeah, yeah.

And with that, I'll just say I'm gonna be presenting on grief after betrayal. This is stuff I talk about with my clients and work through all of the time. I know what I'm putting together. I know what other people are working on putting together. And this is really a labor of love and I'm excited to provide it as a resource for our viewers and listeners with that. I know you and I just talked about this earlier today. I'm really excited and would love to ask our listeners. I'm putting together a survey related to grief and betrayal because I want to understand between now and our conference, we've got about 30 days. I would love to hear and understand what are the things that are impacting our listeners the most. Where are the biggest issues for them in grieving and healing from grief after betrayal. And so we will have that available in our show notes. We'll be talking about in our future podcast as well, but we'll have that available as a link to access and we'd love to hear and understand your experiences as well so we can make sure that we're speaking to them.

So in the show notes we'll put a link to go take a short quiz or assessment so you can give feedback and actually participate pre conference in helping us understand more about grief and loss. I think it's a great idea. And I'm going to be actually talking about the intimacy repair method on the second day. It's a two hour training on the intimacy repair method that I'm going to be presenting and launching this seven pillar process. That's two hours of content that has been created there which is really 30 years in the making. So you can be able to ask questions of our experts. Anyway, so we invite you to join us for the Human Intimacy Conference. And if you right now, before the end of February, if you go to the bit.ly human intimacy and type in the coupon code 30 off, you'll get 30% off your registration fee. So we'd love to have you join us. And so, with that being said, Marianne, I want to jump right into today's topic and I want to start it off with a question, right? Every one of us are sexual beings. We have to confront or address our sexuality. And what that means is I have to understand that I'm going to have sexual feelings, I'm going to have sexual desires. There may be individuals who may feel asexual. There may be individuals who've experienced life traumas and they can't imagine being sexual again. And I want to be very sensitive to all individuals. But for most of us, we have to understand and learn to understand our sexuality. And in some cases it's been compromised. In some cases we don't understand it. I think of a story of a young individual that I was working with in his early 20s, but at age 4, he was given a strew of pornography while his mom was in another room fighting with a boyfriend. And I think about his sexuality and being exposed at age 4 to pornography and his mom literally handing him the magazine and saying, hey, just do this. And how he had tied sexuality with yelling just as an example, everybody has to ask themselves the question, who am I as a sexual being? And that's my starting point today, is just a question, who are we? And do we understand our sexuality enough? And are we afraid of our sexuality? Your thoughts?

My first thought is that for most of my clients, this is incredibly confusing and incredibly painful. When we start to talk about sexuality, there's a lot of confusion. It's something that we often societally don't talk a lot about other than overt sexual messaging. And I think there's a lot of misinformation education wise. I have a lot of clients who will tell me about masturbation. As a really young child, usually children are like, what is this? What's this part of my body? This feels good. It's not bad. But because of the societal shame or discomfort in addressing sexuality, very young children are shamed for their bodies, for touching their body, for their sexuality. That's not understood. The child doesn't know, oh, I touched this and it feels good. That's not bad. That's curious exploration. It's kind of like babies sucking on their feet. You know, babies are so limber and they're sucking on their feet and they're just trying to explore everything and what is this and how does it work? And unfortunately, it can be really damaging. Understanding trauma that occurs with a lot of my clients, or abuse that happens and then we tie in body shaming that gets tied to oftentimes to our perception of ourself, our self worth through this cultural lens of my value is my sex appeal. This can get really tender and really difficult. And we're talking about now how to be intimate in a sexual way, how to create sexual intimacy, which is really about this being exposed and being open and connecting. And earlier you were talking about understanding sexuality and the word I wanted to add was celebrating our sexuality, celebrating that my body is sexual and figuring out how do I have joy and connection in my relationship in a healthy way with my partner there.

And the question then, what is healthy sexuality? What does that even look like? And when you, you know, I think about that story for that individual, no comprehension. What is healthy sexuality? Because it was tied to in that situation, yelling, domestic violence. And so a lot of confusion in contrast with somebody who's told that it's bad, that anything sexual is bad. And so they may go into a relationship thinking, yes, I want to have family, but I don't want to be sexual. I don't understand sexuality and I feel bad because of it. We're so Confused about this, I believe God given natural desire. How do I justify and make sense of spirituality and sexuality? Am I confused by those things? You talk about celebration? And I think we're just so confused by our sexuality as a culture that we're like a dog chasing its tail. What does this mean? Rather than settling down and understanding? I believe in healthy sexuality. I believe that we need to understand ourselves and we need to have a bridle on our passions.

We need to create some boundaries around what's healthy and safe for us and others.

And doing that because we're being intentional about how we want to show up and how we want to be in enjoying our sexuality. Can we say that? Can we enjoy our sexuality and doing it in a way that is boundaried and or bridled and understood? And that's the part where I think many times we are so confused. If I have this sexual desire, whoa, whoa. Is something wrong with me? Or you're too sexual? Well, what does that mean? And so do we understand how to create boundaries? Do we understand inside of ourselves, inside and how to respect other people in.

That moment of healthy, connected sex when there's an orgasm, like right there at the height of the climax, there is this loss of control. So we're talking about we need to have healthy boundaries. But even in this space, there is a moment where we lose all control, where we kind of like there's a surrender into this experience that we most of the time we don't even really have words for.

And if I am ashamed of my sexuality, that in and of itself I might feel bad about. So there's many times where people aren't able to achieve orgasm because the fear not allowing their body to enjoy this experience. And then you add on top of that other life traumas, including sexual betrayal. And now we've got so much complexity to it that many individuals just throw up their hands and say, I'm done. I don't want to deal with this. And yet I don't believe that we can just ignore these natural internal desires and have the potential type of relationship that's possible for us. And that's my bigger concern with this type of intimacy is we've just tainted it or we've cheapened it. And that's where I think if we're really going to help individuals, it's helping them understand themselves well enough that they individually and as a couple, understand their own sexuality and how to apply that in a healthy marriage.

You know, as you say that I would love to do just a little Bit of maybe sex ed right here. And as we talk about this, really understanding there are very distinct differences between men and women. What I usually tell my clients are men are like a rocket, women are like a crock pot. And we are created biologically. Our systems work differently when we come to sexuality. And so we've got the accelerator and we got the brakes. So we've got this whole system in a couple. We've got one person's braking, the other person's putting on the gas. And so it's kind of like, learn how to drive clutch the first time.

So, Marianne, I got to interrupt here real quick. You said a rocket. I'm like, I've heard a microwave. Like, men are like a microwave. Women are like a crock pot if we're cooking food. You know, I can get into that. Right.

Get the analogy straight. All right.

But yes, I think that that's an interesting thing. Even acknowledging our differences. Can we do that and not feel threatened by a spouse who may or may not have the same sexual desire that I have?

Right, And I'm glad you brought up that word, desire, because biologically, we're different. Males and females are different. Regarding desire. Men, usually, their arousal system is tied to their eyes, to their visual, and so they often see something and it automatically hits the part of their limbic system that's about procreating, and that's right where their arousal is. For women, if we think back to before we had birth control for a woman, there is, there's an overlap between their desire system and their threat system in the brain. And so because these overlap, you know when somebody says, hey, honey, you're looking really good, do you want to spend some time in the bedroom? For the female, her whole system usually has to go through this threat analysis. It's usually like, are the kids going to be walking and where are the kids? What's going on? But pre birth control, she had to think about, even though it may not have been conscious, like, are you safe? Will you be here for me in the future? Is this the right time? Because we may end up with another child from this activity. And so she's got the brakes here where her system is thinking through. Once she thinks through and decides, okay, yep, I can be there, it's like flipping a switch and then the desire can come. But the arousal for the female usually then comes from healthy touch. So we've got a male who sees something or thinks something, and he's like, hey, I'm ready to go. His body is reacting immediately and the Female going like, hmm, let me take stock of the situation. Let me think about it. Let me make sure this is going to be the right time, the right place, this will work. And then I can say, yep, and then she needs some physical, safe, healthy physical touch to get to the place where he's already ready to go. And so this is a process that I think is often not understood. And there's often a lot of frustration. And sometimes that can go really fast, depending on hormones, depending on the time of the month and cycles. So it.

I'm glad you brought that up because we typically think about. I was reading Dr. John Gottman's the Science of Trust, and he's talking about these cycles that individuals go through. And in particular, a female in that situation who's ovulating.

Right.

Is way more likely and inclined. In fact, in the research, they're more likely to look around at for sexual partners. Right? That's a very different experience. Contrast that with a couple weeks later when they're starting the cycle, where they're going to start menstruating. That's a very different physiological experience. Now, what we don't talk about there is the male cycle.

And let's have you talk about that one.

Well, okay, so if I talk about the male cycle, then we are going to have to talk about testosterone levels, right? Because individuals who are low on testosterone are going to have different sexual experiences and desires than people who have higher testosterone levels. And we know that the male body is. Their testosterone levels are the highest early in the morning. And that's just the biology of the male body. And so we have to understand cycles and understand and not be afraid to talk about it and not be ashamed of feelings and emotions and experiences. And just because a person has sexual arousal doesn't mean that we have to be sexual. And that's something that is often confusing to people. It's like, oh, I shouldn't be aroused? Well, sorry. Your body's naturally inclined for procreation, for sexual activity. And understanding that, again, that's why the bridal or the boundaries of understanding it, just because I have a sexual feeling doesn't mean I have to act on it.

And part of that male sexual cycle, most men have multiple erections during the night, multiple, like four to six times a night. They will become erect and then it will go down. And that's part of just their bodies. Men, just like women, have their menstruation cycle, men also have a cycle that almost mirrors that. And so we're talking about a lot of chemistry Literally, that's happening.

When I have worked with couples who've really struggled with their sexual desire for sexuality in the relationship. Usually there's a misunderstanding of sexual desire and, and we put it in a context of we don't. We aren't beings that have to have sex. We desire it, but it's not going to kill us if we don't have sex. But there's an important point here. How much potential am I missing out on not understanding how to connect sexually? The power of the bond, what it does to the relationship. Mirror neurons from a cellular level that bond, when it is done appropriately and properly, that bond is powerful and it ties us together in so many ways. Not just children, but we fight for each other, we long for each other. And that bond is not something that should be taken lightly. And that's where I think pornography has been so challenging for our culture is it's almost like this cubic zirconium. As a friend of mine used to say, I can have a real diamond or a cubic zirconium. And I think that that's what the industry of pornography has done is it's created an environment where we think there's intimacy or think that there's that and when in truth, it's empty.

Right. I don't know if I'd even call it cubic zirconium. But I think you're also talking about neuropathy. We create neurochemical pathways when we connect with our partner sexually. I want to make sure we're also talking about some other parts of this where it gets really tricky. So when there's been pornography, I have a lot of clients who come to my office who are struggling with erectile dysfunction because there's porn induced erectile dysfunction, or they've got some sort of a sexual dysfunction due to some of their sexual behaviors. And there is so much shame. And because of the betrayal, I often have clients who have so much body shame. So if my partner says, hey, I'd like to spend some time with you or make some overtures, and I'm dealing with, ooh, my, my shame of like, I don't, I don't want to get undressed, I don't want to be seen, I'm not enough, they're saying, I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to achieve an erection and that might. There may be medical issues with that as well. This is a sensitive area and I think it's important to look at what does sex mean or sexual intimacy mean to me, to my partner and learning to have conversations around the meaning that we're giving it and understanding that the more I can go back into these vulnerable places to really talk about, here's what this means. And when I show up, I'm really uncomfortable. I'm really worried that I'm not going to be able to have an erection. I'm really worried that I'm not going to be able to satisfy my partner. And so it's easier for me to say no or to rebuff or to avoid because that, that may be out of my own shame.

So what's interesting there, Marianne, is as we talk about whether it's porn induced erectile dysfunction or just the sexual desire, I remember a few years ago attending a session by Dr. Pat Love and she was talking, she wrote a book called Hot Monogamy and he was presenting, she said, and being very vulnerable, she said, my sexual desire, it's like, it's just like there's just not energy to it. And she said that's hormonal. And I get it and I'm working with doctors, but that's not where my husband is.

Right.

And that is, is where that vulnerability that she came in and she said, so we've had to learn how to adapt to each other and understand each other in a non threatening way about desires. And I want a connection this way, but what if it is just a plup of joy? Not there's not there. In contrast with somebody who's like, I really long for that type of connection. And so there's so much insight that we have to gain about our own sexuality. And in internalizing, say a partner says I'm not available or not interested or I've got a headache, whatever it is, and not interpreting that as a complete rejection, which is often I find a very big challenge for many of the couples. And I think that that starts early on in a relationship and some of those issues just don't get resolved. Throughout my career, I can't tell you how many couples I go back and I look at their sexual history, timeline and I look at key moments and key events where they had relationship ruptures that never were resolved and has continued to impact their relationship, literally first 10 and 20 and even 30 years of unresolved issues because they couldn't resolve it in an earlier event where there was a relationship rupture or problem, I think of scar tissue.

And so if my partner's saying, hey, I'd like to spend time with you and I'm going through my whole threat analysis if I've got 10 inches of scar tissue to work through as well, it might be really difficult for me to get there.

It just takes a lot longer and an understanding, right? So part of my repair with couples is always going back. Part of my intimacy repair method is actually going back and understanding this whole story. Right? So I'm looking at. We have to look at a sexual history timeline for with couples, and we have to understand ruptures or events that have triggered that. Right. Those scars, as you say. But the reparations, how do we make that better? Because I. Man, how sad is it that we're not living up to our sexual potential and all the other types of intimacy? How sad is it that we aren't finding joy in this incredible body that we've been given? And that is. Can be the beauty of our intimacy in multiple ways. But my fear is that we're living so far below that potential because we're living in fear. Fear of not being safe, fear of being rejected, fear. Fear of so many other things that we're not living into a space that could be beautiful.

You know, Dr. Skinner, I want to really lay this on the table, because what we're talking about here, you mentioned it earlier, resentment. If I'm carrying resentment, that can get in the way. If I'm carrying anger or whatever these emotions might be for my partner, they can get in the way. Now, if I am able to dive into these other areas of intimacy that we've been talking about, about the emotions or about, here's where I'm at. If I can tell my partner and meet them and say, here's what's going on for me, this is so hard. I'm so scared to have you see me. If I am in that state of vulnerability, we usually attach in that vulnerability. So even if we're saying, like, ooh, this is where I'm at. You made this overture, but here's where I'm at. If I'm able to let my partner see me and they see me, and we can have some deep, meaningful conversation about that, that is where we're still getting that connection, that bonding. And oftentimes that will lead us to feeling safer about that physical connection. I know you and I have talked about this before. There's a concept called makeup sex, where people fight and they argue and then they have sex. And oftentimes it's because in that fight, they actually said and got out all the vulnerable things or all the junk that was in the way that was creating a barrier. And once that got out, it took them to a deeper level where they could then come back and reconnect in a very different way. This is also intertwined, as we've said over and over. It's not a step by step, these are all dipping in and out of each other.

And then there's confusion around it. And let me explain what I mean by that. So I was gathering research, I always am gathering research. And in particular I asked the question how betrayal influenced individuals in their lives. And one person wrote in and said, I don't know what to do with this, but I really enjoyed sex. And when I discovered my partner's behavior, I found myself thinking about what they did. When we're being sexual, I can't get those thoughts out of my mind. And I still enjoy being sexual. And so I'm confused because I'm trying to be present in this experience and yet my mind is continually going back to what occurred. And for that individual, I think they described it absolutely perfectly. For what the research has shown is what's going through my mind while we're trying to engage in this intimate experience. And that confusion is pervasive. And yet the process that I have found most effective there is helping individuals stay present in attuned to their body. Because what's happening there is the fear is overriding the joy or the connection there. And I'm worrying and I'm thinking, and what would happen if a spouse said, I'm just feeling fear right now? What would happen if their spouse said, I'm here and I made mistakes and I love you and I am so grateful for you and I enjoy being with you. My mind, my heart is with you.

And whatever you feel comfortable with right now is fine. I don't want to do if you're feeling pressured. I just want to be here with you right now. Whatever you're comfortable with that is perfectly fine.

And not resenting it and not expecting or putting pressure on and honoring that. That's where the reparations and the healing can occur. Because no longer do I feel like I'm obligated to. Obligatory sex is horrible sex. Feeling like I just have to get this over is horrible sex or that.

I'm being used or exploited.

And unfortunately, people don't understand what things mean. Because the interpretation from a fear based mind is that that's all you want, that's all you care about. And that's the conversation where people have to learn how to communicate that together. Because maybe in the past that was the case. They're no longer living in this present time, they're living in past events. Going back to the concept that we've talked about many times in here, the Zeigarnic effect. If you don't address some of those earlier ruptures, they're going to come back and haunt you and haunt the relationship. So we sometimes have to go back to where those traumas occurred or fractures occurred and address them. And I have found that's another way that helps couples heal. And many times couples don't know how to do that. And that's actually what I do in my intensives, is I actually go back to those memories, go back to those experiences where those ruptures were. And we work through those.

I love this topic. And I want to also just touch on the importance of honoring where you're at, honoring your emotions that we were just briefly talking about as. As we touched on that, I was reminded of a book that I read years ago. And I'm actually not going to reference this book because it was incredibly damaging. But the message I distinctly remember reading, and it basically said, you know, ladies, your job is to make sure your husband has food and that he has sex. That's your job. And if you make sure that your husband has food and he has sex, you'll have a great relationship. It'll be a happy life. And I remember going like, oh, okay. Like, is this real? And there was like a whole radio show about it. And. And I feel so sad for my younger self because I was trying to figure out, like. Like, what's going on? How do I do this? But here's what happens when we go into that obligatory sex. Or my job is just to keep my husband happy, which is a mindset that, you know, that's my wifely duty. I can't tell you how many times I hear that. If I'm showing up to a sexual experience with my partner out of obligation, when I'm not fully present, when I'm not fully there, that's damaging. There's so much damage that happens because I'm not being authentic. And something happens, I think, deep inside of us when we show up to these places, it's not meaningful. And it's more hurtful because it's not connecting.

So I've heard that from both partners. It's like, we have sex, but it's not connecting. And to that, I think that's a part where we have to step back individually and say, am I showing up in a way that's validating? Am I showing up in a way that is not sexual shaming. Both directions. You never want to have sex.

Yeah.

That's all you want is sex. Sexual shaming. In contrast with, you know, I understand you have a strong desire or more desire than I do. I can honor that. I can respect that. Or I understand that your drive isn't as mine is. And I can respect that because I love you. The difference is how we see each other sexually. And it may be threatened by our partner's sexual desires. That's a problem that many couples don't know how to address, don't know how to talk about. And so we find ways, in many ways, to hurt each other. And that doesn't work. It just doesn't work in our culture where we sexually shame each other for a. A lack or too much. And that's why we have to understand ourselves sexually and how do we communicate it in a way that doesn't make a person feel obligated, that doesn't make a person feel bad that they have a desire. And that's a very delicate balance. And I want to acknowledge that. But it's an important thing for us to learn to do if we're going to achieve what we can achieve in the fullness of our relationship.

This is such a fun topic, and there's so many facets. I'm wondering, Dr. Skinner, before we wrap up, I'm just wondering about. If I were listening to this, I'd be like, okay, and now let's talk about some steps to healthy sexual interaction. What would that look like? How do we get there?

I actually started off today with that question. Here's the question, right? I'm a sexual being. How am I going to show up? Who am I? How do I see myself sexually? What does this represent? That self awareness. It has to be step number one. Because if I put pressure on, if I. If I'm. If I don't want to be sexual, I got to figure out what that's all about.

I think I'm hearing you say step number one, then is honesty, honesty, self and with each other.

Right. If I'm not honest with myself first, then I'm betraying myself.

Right?

Right. Like that person who wrote in and said, look, I'm a sexual being. I love sex. Great. I'm proud of her.

Right?

Right. So. So there's no shame there. But now I'm confused. Sexually, I want to be sexual, but I don't know how to do this dance that is authentic, real. I understand myself and communicating it. And so when we understand ourselves well enough, then I can Be honest with you. But let's say that I come from a place where I am so scared, I'm so afraid, I'm anxious, I'm nervous and I don't even know why. Well, maybe it's because I haven't, don't have that awareness. And I can't tell you. I could write a book called Honeymoon Horror Stories about individuals who don't. Again, we've saved ourselves. We don't understand sexuality and, and the expectations and the pressure and all of that. That's really not a great formula for great sex.

Well, But I'm wondering, Dr. Skinner, about that honesty. I work with couples who've waited. I work with lots of couples. Sometimes they wait to have sex until they're married. I might not know myself sexually with my partner until we are in that space where we're beginning to have that sexual touch and that sexual experience. And it, I think if we are showing up in that vulnerable space with using our healthy, mature conversations and deep vulnerability to be able to say, oh, I thought about this. I, I don't know if I like this or if I don't or how to do this. And is this a place where we can create and explore and have fun and that healthy, happy sex life that we were talking about?

So, Marianne, this episode, we could go on and on. At some point we'll probably, because this is the human intimacy podcast, we're probably gonna have to talk about sex for newlyweds. But the point then, from my perspective, you talk about steps is self awareness, learning how to communicate that in an open and honest way. Which is why we talk about emotional and verbal intimacy in the beginning. And how do we collectively, together, this couple create a great relationship? And then you want another step is sometimes we have to face our fears. What am I so afraid of? What am I holding back on? Or why am I putting so much pressure on this person to be that nurturer to take care of my need? Why am I putting so much pressure there? If I came to you and said I have a strong sexual desire and if you say I'm not in this space, then we have to figure out how we're going to negotiate that space in a non threatening way.

Right? I have some thoughts about that, Dr. Skinner. I think it boils down to a concept that comes from Sue Johnson, which is the attachment. But it's really, am I turning into the relationship with my partner? Am I turning out? And so it's really about where are we turning and can I turn in? Can I turn to you and say, I'm trying to figure this out and I might need some space and time to figure it out as a couple. Can we figure it out? But I do think it comes back to that honesty and am I turning in and towards my partner?

And so there's so much here to talk about. Marianne, we'll come back to this down the road to our listeners final thoughts that you have today.

Marianne, this has been a conversation that I know we've hit a lot of different areas to our listeners and viewers. Thank you for being with us. We hope this has been helpful for you. If you want to send us an email to infooumanintimacy.com we love to hear your questions on this. We'd love to talk about this more in ways that would be helpful and meaningful for you. And as always, I invite you to have lots of self compassion and to lean into your relationships.

And this then concludes the conversation on the intimacy triangle. And my hope is that as you've listened to it, that you've taken in some ideas on how to enhance the intimacy in your relationship. That's the deepest desire. I hope that you will take this content and apply it because when you do, you'll have deeper, more intimate relationships. And that's our deepest desire, is to help you achieve the type of intimacy that you long for. So thank you so much for being a part of the Human Intimacy podcast, Marianne. Thank you.

You're welcome, Dr. Singh. We got one more announcement, so hopefully people hung on for our last announcement. Our last announcement is we have that Human Intimacy YouTube channel. So if you want to watch us on YouTube, it's YouTube.com forward/human intimacy. If you would like to watch us as we're chatting discussing these topics, we'd love to have you join us there. It makes it an easy place to share from as well. So if this has been helpful for you, we invite you to share it with somebody who can benefit from it. So thanks, Dr. Skinner.

Thank you.