When Couples Feel Stuck: Breaking the Patterns That Keep You From Healing (Episode #107)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh, something surrounds.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, we have just completed the triangle, the seven types of intimacy. And now we get to move on. But before we move on, I want to invite all of our guests, those who are listening to consider joining us for the upcoming Human Intimacy Conference, March 13th and 14th, 2026. We're going to have incredible experts. Michelle Mays, Dr. Dave Robinson, Dr. Alex Theobald, Dr. Hal Stewart, Dr. Karen Strange, Dan Oaks, Marianne, and so many more experts. Two day conference. It's live, it's recorded, and all those who sign up will get recordings. They'll be able to go back and review them. Incredible opportunity. And we want to invite you, if you use the coupon code, until the end of February, 30 off, you can get 30% off. You can sign up at bit I forward slash human intimacy.

Dr. Skinner, I'm super excited about the conference and there's a couple of other things I want to make sure that we let our listeners know. First of all, we have a new YouTube channel. You can find it at YouTube.coman-imimacy Rise, Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal. But they don't know about Human intimacy and they don't know about reclaim. And so just wanting to put out there for our listeners and viewers, we've got three podcasts. This is one that we often focus on couples and relational repair and healing and also Rise Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal is for Betrayed partners. The first season, we're just talking about stabilizing, making sense of your experience. Season two, we've got several different therapists that we're featuring that come on really diving more deeply into it. So we just want to make sure that everybody's aware of the resources that we have that we're providing along with the Human Intimacy Conference. Our mission and our passion is to provide resources.

So join us at the conference podcast trying to provide as much resource as we possibly can. And today, I think today's topic may be one that many, many couples that I've talked to, they're like, I really needed this one. Because they feel stuck. If you're in a pattern where you're like, we don't know what to do. We've tried, we've gone to therapy, we've gone to groups, we've tried everything, individual counseling, we don't know what else to do. We feel stuck. And today we want to address if you're feeling stuck. Here's a few things you might consider. So, Marianne, where would you like to start today? Couple comes, says, we feel stuck. What are we going to do?

I want to start really just validating the pain, validating the frustration, validating. This is not what I want. This is not my expectation, and this is super hard. I've had several clients in my office who are heartbroken and they're getting to the point of feeling hopeless. And we've tried everything. At least I've tried everything. I've done everything. And we're still. It just feels like we're spinning our wheels. What do we do here? And there's this exasperation and frustration and also even almost a feeling of helplessness or hopelessness, really. Like, okay, is it one more thing? Is this next thing going to work? And it feels really futile. So I think I want to just start acknowledging the emotions that come with this.

Me too. Like, we need to validate. This is hard. And I want to have our listeners contemplate this. When you feel stuck, it's usually because the patterns of the past aren't doing anything. They're the same patterns over and over and over again. So I'm going to therapy, I'm doing this, and it feels like it doesn't create change. And when I hear people, they start to feel that hopelessness or helplessness. I have found over time that it's more important to understand what have I learned and are we applying what we've learned. Patterns are not easy to break. The way we think, the way we feel, the way we act, everything changes. In the healing and the recovery process, you have to think different, you have to feel different. Every interaction, even behavioral changes between the couple ultimately have to change. Marianne. And so for me, the change process is all of those things. And as strange as this may be, when I do intensives, I can't tell you how many times people have come to me and said, you might be our last chance. We're considering divorce. We're contemplating divorce. This may be our last effort, our last ditch effort. And for me, that it's interesting because some people say that that's boy, that they're putting a lot of weight on you. And not really, because I let them carry that one. I give them the tools and the resources that help create the change. Because patterns can be changed. We just have to learn the right pattern change for our specific relationship. So my point here is, if we are going to change, we collectively as a couple and as the therapist, we need to Understand the patterns of the past and really help them integrate new patterns. And that's really what I want to talk about today. How do we do that?

I think this is complex because usually somebody comes into my office and says, hey, I have this pattern that I don't want in my life. So usually when I have a client come into my office and say, you know, I'm stuck in this, it's just not changing. We. One thing that I've learned from you is we've got to understand our patterns so that we can figure out what to change. But oftentimes we are working with multiple issues that are really going on. And so sometimes it feels a little bit like whack a mole, even just to get a client who's regulated. So we might be working on emotional regulation, we might be working on coping tools, and then we might be working on shame, and then we might be working on trauma. And then we have a relationship on top of this, plus crisis from work and kids and life. And so we've got so many different elements that we're trying to work on. And it can feel a little scattered sometimes. And it can feel like, oh, I don't feel like I'm really getting anywhere. Because it would be beautiful if I could just come in and say, this is the only thing that we're working on and go, but we're humans and life is a little bit messy. And so it doesn't always go in a direct path. Always.

And that's right. I think, Marianne, if we look at the individual issues and then we've got the couple issues, we're talking specifically about the couple dynamics today. So we're doing it. We've talked some about individual work that has to be done, but today I think the couples work. The thing that sticks out to me when individuals make progress, it's because one partner in the system chooses to engage in a new or a different way. And so for some people, maybe they started creating a boundary or the person who did the unwanted behavior is starting to wake up to the depth of the pain that they've created. And there is this energy behind that because they're like, I need to show up different, and they start to show up differently. And I've seen it go both ways here, whether it's boundary based or a person's really, sometimes they're called on fire in the recovery journey. Right. They're doing whatever they can because they realize, I don't want to be that person that I was. So that's the individual stuff. But now we come to the coupleship, the way we interact, the language between us. And so when I do couples intensives, I really focus on, let's just take any couples conflict, anything that really sticks out to you guys, and that we're going to go after that pattern that needs to be interrupted. And what's so interesting to me is the variation in the patterns often don't change. In other words, we fight the same way, Marianne. The conflict, the conversations, who does what. They know the pattern, and that's the part when you understand and they can understand their pattern and why they're doing what they're doing. That's where I see the greatest progress.

This is what Sue Johnson calls our dance, that every couple has a dance, and I step forward and my partner steps backward, and we just fall into these steps of the relationship. And Sue Johnson says we have to change the music. And she talks about it in a very, very cognitive way. We have to stop and say, oh, this is our pattern. This is what we're doing. When you do this, it drives me bonkers, and this is how I respond. And so we've got to start saying, like, oh, here's our pattern right here. Hold on. Now we gotta recognize it, stop it, and say, what do we want to do differently? And once again, the complexity of this comes up because we might be dealing with trust, we might be dealing with. I'm not sure if I can even if I'm ready to have that conversation with you, to really start diving into it, because what if I get hurt again?

And so part of the honest exploration before we even begin this stuck pattern, is, am I ready to get unstuck? Am I ready to take the risk of trying to trust again? Am I willing to do that? And if I'm not, that's okay. I'm not in a space. I'm not in a space to do that right now.

And. And I want to comment on that because I was speaking with a client just recently about this, and we were talking about something with her partner, and she said, marianne, I'm not sure that I'm ready to be vulnerable. What you're talking about sounds really good, but, oh, holy cow, like, let's shift it back to me and me actually opening up and being vulnerable. Oh, that feels terrifying for me.

And how mature is that awareness to say, maybe I'm not there yet? And how mature then would it be for the spouse in that situation to say, I can accept that. I want you to be able to come at your pace, not mine?

Well, that's interesting because I think. I think what I. The assumption, I think that we come to this with is if you're going to be vulnerable, I have to be equally vulnerable as vulnerable. While that might be ideal, that might not be the case. Both partners may not be ready and able to show up with the same amount of vulnerability just based on the situation.

And sometimes we're stuck because I'm not ready to confront myself and my own behaviors.

Right.

Right. Am I really ready for recovery? Am I really ready to begin this process of trying to trust again? And if my honest truth is, no, I'm not in that space and I can own that, that's on me, I'm not in that space. Maybe I'm not creating a space where you can trust me. So if I'm still relapsing as an example, I'm not creating a space where you should just automatically say, well, I'm going to try to trust you, but maybe I'm in a space where I'm wanting to starve down that step of trusting again, and I start to see your actions, and I start to feel those feelings, and I'm scared, and I can own those.

I want to speak to something in here that may be triggering. So just want to put out a trigger alert, just to take a deep breath, because I know this can feel uncomfortable, especially for betrayed partners. I know that I have been guilty of, you know, when I first started my recovery work, of thinking, as soon as my husband gets this worked, this is all his stuff, this is all his stuff. And I didn't come to our relationship with this stuff. This is his, and he's kind of figured out and work it out, and I'll just be over here kind of like waiting for him. And when he gets it together, then we can start working on the healing relationship. I think that was naive. We all have our own stuff to work on. And. And if my partner changes, I also need to change and grow and adapt as well. If we come together to do some couples work at that place, when the. The attention is not focused on my. My partner, that can feel terrifying. Like, wait, what? We're shifting the attention back onto me. We're shifting back onto maybe some vulnerabilities or some things that I'm not comfortable with, or as you were talking about before, ready to even face myself. It's easy to project all of the blame onto our partner rather than looking at ourselves as well.

I want to be cautious there, but also validate. Right. So the cautious part of me says, I Want to understand that they're doing their part. But what does that mean about me? Because what if I'm not ready? Do I go into this place of guilt and shame that I'm not in that space? Or do I get angry and push you away because I still don't trust you? And so that. That space of how do I negotiate and figure myself out when I see that maybe you're doing things differently? And I'm trying to take stock of that, like, okay, I see that you're doing those things. I still don't trust it. But how do I deal with my fears? There's. How do I confront my fear of what if you are trying. I've heard some betrayed partners say I've trained my spouse well enough that I don't want anyone else to have this version of them.

Yeah, I have heard that. I want to go back for just a second. I just want to clarify what I shared, that I do not come from a co addict perspective. I definitely work from a trauma and attachment perspective. And the work that I'm talking about is oftentimes we have childhood things that we need to work through. We have beliefs, and when there's been trauma, we usually have to do trauma work. Emotional regulation. We have grieving. We have our own work. We have to learn how to do boundaries. We have to learn how to show up differently oftentimes in the relationship. So I just want to be really clear that I don't want that confusion to show up here.

And at the same time, here's the challenge of it. I don't know what I want. I don't know if I'm ready for connection. I don't know if I can get over this. I don't know if I can. And so that type of honesty really is leaning into what I'm talking about here is that's my work. I've got to figure out if I want to do this, and then am I willing to take the risks associated with it?

And here's two problems with that. The two problems with that are oftentimes I might want to go back to how it was before, before I knew. Because my world, like, it was a different world. And I might have thought everything was okay. I might want that, and I might have a lot of fear. I don't have a template for what this could even look like. I'm afraid to even hope or dream or guess what it could look like. So there's a lot of fear for

the future and a fear that maybe I'll get it wrong. Maybe they're still hiding things. Maybe there's still this deception. Maybe there's still gaslighting. So that's also work that when we do it. And even the expression of that. And that's where I see the couples making really good progress. When that conversation can be had and the betraying spouse in that situation can validate it. That makes complete sense that you're not ready to trust me. I'm not putting pressure on. I don't expect that I'm. I'm here to show up and be here in this environment. Whatever your fears are, whatever your concerns are, that's the language where I work with individuals to help them understand the power of not putting pressure on expectations can kill relationships. And what I mean is I expect that you're going to forgive me. I expect that you're going to move on. What expectations are we having that you're going to do this and you're going to do this, but we're avoiding our own expectations. Am I going to get into recovery? Am I going to stop this behavior? Am I putting forth the heartfelt effort to create a place that you can feel safe with me in? And if I've been the acting out person, those are the types of questions I should be asking.

So I think it's really important here too. As we're saying, when we get stuck, I've got to learn how to communicate to my partner. I've got to learn how to listen to my partner and to validate. And I've got to learn how to actually be vulnerable and have these mature conversations. Like these are the tools that we have to have when we are trying to work through. Can we bring our best self to the table and say, here it is. What do we do? We're stuck right now.

And now you're talking about my own stuff and my own ability to communicate. It's interesting, Marianne, we're still talking about can we communicate effectively our own stuff, our own feelings, our own experiences in an authentic and real way. Because if I'm in that situation, that role player that I was just saying, if I'm the betrayed spouse there, I also, man, I've got to look inside and say, I'm not an angry person, but I may be showing up that way. Or I really don't know how to trust and I don't know how to trust my gut. I don't know how that instinctive thing, is it right? Is it not right? I'm confused. Even the expression of those things, if they're validated and they're discussed can help couples get closer. Because I'm bringing to the table. This is where I'm at, truthfully, honestly, authentically, and I don't have anything to hide. This is it. This is where I'm at.

You know, before we started, Dr. Skinner, you and I were chatting and you talked about something that Patrick Kearns had said about this. And I would love to have you share that because I think that would really lend to our conversation. You were talking about structures and secrets.

Yeah, because we were talking about, you know, when people continuously relapse, they get stuck in a relapse pattern. It's every few weeks, it's once every few months, and. And then the betrayed partner there is like, I just don't feel like we're making any progress. I've worked with individuals where they'll make great progress and then usually it's some kind of a cycle they'll get into and then they'll relapse. And I've had many clinicians that I've trained over the years, they'll say, what do we do in that situation? And I go back to something Dr. Patrick Carnes said. And he said when people get stuck, because that's a different kind of stuck, I'm stuck in the relapse pattern. It's usually because they've one of two reasons, he said. They don't have enough structure in their life or they have secrets. And that really is a very important part for me as a clinician to look at. Are there secrets? If there's not secrets, then we need to up the structure. The same is true in my individual healing, as it is in couple ships healing. We need structure in the coupleship for dialogue, communication. So I create guidelines or rules for meaningful conversation as an example. I don't believe it's wise for couples to try to resolve problems after 11 o' clock at night. Usually because the energy is low, you're tired, and you're more likely to say and do things that are going to be hurtful in the relationship. So I encourage couples to agree that they set aside some time to talk about the issues, but. But they put a time limit on it. And if it's not resolved, they still set another time to come back and work to resolve it. If they don't know how to resolve it, then they need to get into a counselor to help them discuss through those issues that they're stuck on.

The way I'm connecting, that is. Sometimes when a couple feels really, really stuck, there may be some secrets that are occurring, there may be something that's. That's not being addressed. And so as much as one partner or the other partners saying, like, hey, like, I can't figure this out, I think that probably applies here as well. There could be some secrets, there could be some structures that are missing. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah, completely. And may I even extend that to say that's not one directional. If I am not ready for a connection, if I'm not ready to create a deeper relationship, how inauthentic is it for me to put it on you and. And your recovery when I may not be in a place where I don't want to engage right now, I don't want to be close right now. I'm not in that space. And so both partners can keep their own secrets in their own ways to prevent this connection.

And I think that shows up because we feel it, we see it, and we feel it. And that's oftentimes, I think, where we're hitting our head against the wall, like, what's going on? We're going through the motions, but nothing's working.

Why are we stuck? And so that's where. When I do intensives, it's literally bringing out the truth so we can look at the truth of where we're at. That, Marianne, is when we do intenseness, that's the productive part of it, because there's no more hiding, secretive behaviors. We have to be authentic. We have to be real if we're going to work to heal and repair this relationship. And that's the part when couples get stuck. It's because they usually are bumping their head against that, as you just said.

I'm thinking of a recent disclosure. I had the man who shared his disclosure. He was just like, I am so free. My. So free. And I'm not willing to live a life where I have secrets now. And it's just been so fascinating to watch and see the changes, because hard conversations, it's like, you know, I'm choosing to be free from secrets, so we need to have a hard conversation, which is different than, I'm going to avoid this, and you're going to sense it, and it's going to be there in our relationship, but we're not talking about

it, you know, and here's the thing that I've observed that in those situations where the person's finally freed from the. Of the secrets, the hidden behaviors, the deception, sure, that's freeing for them. Now their spouse is there saying, maybe, maybe, but why is this time different? Well, I promise this time's different. Wait. Well, why is this time different? Well, I promise, I. I can't you tell my energy. I am so excited, and I'm so this. And why is this time different? And so we. We're going back and forth with each other. Yes. That person who did the disclosure. I hope you feel good because that's part of the confession. Forsaking. That's part of that process. You should feel good, and you should feel sad pain that's been created in your spouse or partner. And so, yes, feel good and recognize the pain that your partner's in. They're suffering. There's a difference there. That's where compassion really settles in, is that I can recognize I've created pain. And I'm hopeful because I don't. I'm not living in secret and my partner's suffering.

So today we started out talking about when we're getting stuck. We gravitated to really talking about individuals and their readiness to do the couple's work. And then we've shifted to really looking at what are some of the secrets, what are some of the things that are really keeping us stuck and kind of what we need and where we need to go to be able to be ready for this couple's work. Anything else you want to. What else do we need to talk about?

There's so much more that we could say here because getting stuck, we also mentioned, you know, maybe there's past issues that prevent me from showing up now. So there's key things that we've talked about, but there's so many other personal things and relationship skills. In my upcoming talk at the Human Intimacy Conference, I'm going to be talking part of this when I talk about the difference between empathy and compassion and how to be with your spouse when they're triggered, when they're having a hard time. Because when couples don't know how to do that part of it, they stay stuck. So that that whole presentation is designed to help talk about the difference between when I feel you and your pain. Can I stay present or not? And that's where I find as another stuck point that we'll address at the upcoming Human Intimacy Conference.

And that goes back to our emotional regulation. Can I handle my emotions and can I handle your. Right behind me. For our viewers, I have an. An image. It's a painting by Caitlin Connolly, and it's a pair of hands, and these hands are holding tears. And there's some that are dropping over, so you probably can't see it. It's not right up close, but, but this concept of can I sit with my partner and can I hold their pain? Can I let their, can I, you know, hold the bucket to catch all, everything that's coming out and sit and be with them. I think that's such an essential part of this. We're talking about vulnerability. We're talking about being able to show up and being able to be present with my partner and their emotions and not, not shutting down when something becomes uncomfortable for me as well.

Well, the fantastic conversation, Marianne. And to our listeners, we want to express our appreciation. Thanks for being a Human Intimacy podcast listener. We invite you to share it with friends or other people you think would benefit from this. It's really through the listenership that we, we really feel like this is rewarding. We hope it's helpful for you guys. So, Marianne, thank you for your time. Any final thoughts today?

Yeah, I, I'm grateful for these conversations. And to our listeners and viewers, we would love to address your topics. We would love to address questions you have, things that you're, you're being challenged with. On the 26th of February, we will have in our show notes a link if you'd like to join us for a Q and A prior to the Human Intimacy Conference for the future, as well, we would love to have you send us a message@infooumanintimacy.com and we'd love to see if we can address your questions here as well.

Yeah, that's. So that's a free Q and A with Marianne, Me and Michelle Mays and Daryl Brazil will also be there. So there'll be four of us there answering common asked questions for individuals and couples in the healing journey. So we'd love to have you join us. You'll find that in the show notes, the Q and A with us. So anyway, we're excited to be with you and may you be blessed in your healing journey.

Thank you.

It's like you're shining. You're staring.