When Recovery Means Different Things to Each Partner (Episode #109)

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Miklas, licensed clinical social worker, and our good friend Jeff Stewart, who's down in St. George. Jeff, if I remember right, you went to Auburn University.

I did.

And got your marriage and family therapy degree there 20+ years ago, working on 30 years ago.

Yeah, it's been a minute. Yep.

And now you're in St. George, Utah.

Yep.

Tell us a little bit about what you're doing, your practice, your podcast, everything you're doing.

Yeah, so I've been down here in St. George running a private practice for almost 20 years now, and I currently, yeah, have a private practice. I have a podcast called From Crisis to Connection that I actually co-host with my wife. And then about a year ago, I launched an online couples program called Courageous Together, which is for to help couples healing from sexual betrayal walk this path together in a really structured way. And that's been really great to support couples all over the world with that.

That's awesome. So that's Jeff. You're gonna be presenting at the upcoming Human Intimacy Conference. Would love to hear what you're gonna be presenting on your topic. So those who are gonna be participating kind of get a, a little bit of a teaser.

Yeah, I love this topic. It comes up all the time in my practice, and the title of the work of the presentation is called Not Yet. And this is really about when couples are trying to figure out how to reengage in sexual intimacy or physical touch, sexual touch. And usually one partner's ready to reconnect and the other one's not there yet. And so without the right framework, this can be really stressful and can keep couples really stuck, and it can create a lot of shame, pressure can even reinjure the betrayed partner. And I want to talk about not about how to get back to sex faster. It's really about understanding what is required after trust has been broken and how to start setting up a framework to help the couple find their way back to each other. And the idea of not yet is that there's hope that there can be reintegration there., but to do it in a, in a safe, trauma-sensitive way.

I am really looking forward to that. We are gonna be doing that on March 14th. That will be the couples day. And Jeff is slotted for the 3 o'clock timeframe. So those who are participating, so excited. Jeff's gonna be presenting. We have Dr. Karen Strange also gonna be talking about some of the sexual reintegration, and we are absolutely stoked for the conference. If you have not yet signed up, to our listeners, March 13th and 14th, you can go to bit.ly/humanintimacy. And if you type in the coupon code 30OFF, you will get 30% off the registration fee. So we'd love to have you join us. Jeff, so glad you're gonna be with us. Now onto today's topic. I just wanna give a preface here, and this is coming from just recent experience working with individuals. And I have found that when we start talking about recovery and healing, individually and as a couple, our definitions aren't the same. So here's my intro. One of the most difficult parts of healing after betrayal is that both partners often believe that they're working toward healing and recovery, but they may have completely different ideas of what that actually looks like for them. So Jeff, Marianne, your initial thoughts?

Well, I'll just start off. I can't think of a case where Both people came with the exact same idea of how this was going to work. And so I want people to, in some ways, take a deep breath and just say, you're normal. And that's what happens. Because first of all, for so many of these couples, this is the first time that they've ever navigated this new landscape. And so how in the world are they supposed to know where they're supposed to go? And then you have gender differences, you have backgrounds, histories, you have different needs. Betrayal trauma is very different than trying to overcome compulsive behaviors. There's just so many different competing ideas and needs. And so it's a great conversation to have about what exactly are we working on? What does it look like?

Yeah, great start. And you, Mary Ann?

Yeah. And to build on that, I think even in our, in our world, in our profession, every therapist may have a different idea or a roadmap towards recovery. And so it can be really complex of just everything that Jeff was talking about and then looking at Okay, maybe these are the tools for recovery. For me, I really like to boil it down and go back to, I love the word recovery and it is actually gaining something back, which was lost. And so if we look at somebody who's been dealing with unwanted sexual behaviors and they started out when they were young, they may not even know what life looks like without those. And there are a lot of the part of that recovery process is recovering the regulation skills, the emotional skills, the interrelational dynamics, the communication skills. Those are part of their recovery. And with trauma, it's also recovering once again, what was lost, what is lost is it's the relationship, the relationship, not just with my partner, which has to be rebuilt and, and created in a whole new way, but it's also that relationship with ourselves. And so it's looking at, I have to go back and Pick up all the things that were lost that I didn't get, or that flopped out of my boat. It is distinct for each individual and each couple, but there are some roadmaps and some hallmarks. I think that generally in therapy we do agree on. And I was really intrigued in your introduction as you were talking about From Crisis to Connection. And I thought, man, if I were listening to this podcast, I want to know a little bit more about that.

In the beginning stage, say I've just discovered my partner. I don't even know what recovery looks like. If we were to sit down and say, what does this even mean? My initial assumption is that it's going to be stopping the behavior.

Right.

Or if I'm dealing with trauma, I don't even know what, what that even looks like in the beginning. I'm not sleeping right. I'm not sleeping. I'm not eating as well. I'm overwhelmed. What does healing look like? Did I get back to that normal eating and sleeping? Or is it way more than that? How do I deal with this relationship? And so I think the big part for me here is when we look at these defining recovery and healing, it's usually that first part is I have to understand myself well enough to say, what did that, was that even mean to me? And later on in this process, as couples start going through, they start getting more information. There's been more open conversations about what occurred. Maybe their definition changes cuz they want a whole new marriage to really reevaluate what are we doing and why we're doing it.

Right. Yeah, that's right.

So Dr. Suni, you're talking about that fight, flight, or freeze for a betrayed partner. I'm saying, what is recovery? There's so much shock and dismay and confusion and disbelief that for me to even say, I don't even know what to do with this. And when I say, what am I gonna go back to? I'm gonna go back to a relationship that wasn't honest, that had secrecy. They had betrayal, which means I don't have a roadmap for the past or my future. And that, that makes it so tricky.

Yeah. And I think what's interesting is that so many times see that, that folks that have broken trust, they, there's sort of this obvious rupture in the relationship. So it's like, well, let's just put that back together. Right. Let's just, let's just duct tape and baling wire this thing back together. Because clearly it's broken. And that's literally so much lower on the priority list than stabilization. And I think about it like a natural disaster or a car accident scene. The priorities are about getting people extracted from the vehicles, getting blankets on them, like checking them over. There are so many physical and emotional needs that are, that are happening with these traumas. The brain can't even process that stuff. And that's where a lot of couples, I think, start to miss each other because one person's traumatized, the other one's not. And one person's brain is prioritizing some things and the other one's just trying not to die.

Right. Right. And so then that individual journey is really that question of what does recovery look for me, look like for me personally? I don't even know in the beginning because I don't have the information. As I start to get information, then I can start to address that question. Right. And maybe even that point, it's like, well, what do I even expect? What are these new expectations? What outcomes am I even looking for here? Do I want to save the relationship? Do I have all the information? Do I not have all the information? If I've been dealing with an unwanted sexual behavior for most of my life, what is that expectation I'm putting on myself if I want to overcome that and, and really work on this relationship?

I think a really important part right in the middle of all of this too, is there has to be a grieving period. There has to be grief. It has to be processed because we have to figure out what our story is, be able to tell our story and make sense of our story before we can get back to reintegrating myself and then figuring out how do we reintegrate together as a couple. We've got to do some really important deep soul-searching, grieving.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

And so let me ask you guys a question then. Let's say that I've done the grieving. I, we now have more information out there. Do you think that we have a shared vision of what recovery looks like yet? Or do you think that that is not a conversation that most couples are having?

Yeah, I don't think most couples know how to have that conversation. I, I think that, you know, and I talk about this a lot in my work, is that there's a tendency sometimes to lock into that very safety-focused sweep your side of the street type of thing, which is very much looking down your lane, doing your work, which matters. You need to do your own work and take responsibility for it. But there's this shared street there. We were talking about your own side of the street. There's a street in the middle How do we share that street? What does that even mean for us? And I don't know that there's a lot of great invitations or guides or support to know how to talk about what that exactly is and how we share that space together. And I think that's a critical conversation couples have to have. And in my experience, as I'm working with couples, that's something that I usually have to help them structure. Most people aren't naturally going to start having that conversation. That's right.

Yeah.

And that question, if I was to say, okay, what does healing mean to me? Both partners, if they're addressing that and they were to come together and say, okay, here's an assignment for 20 minutes, go write down what healing means to you. And if they were to get together, I wonder honestly what that conversation would be like. I wonder if we'd be like talking about Mars and Venus differences, or would they be actually closer together? And I think that that might be a telltale sign of just where we're at, even in our own perception, as we start that healing journey.

I'm just thinking about that. I'm thinking if somebody asked me right now, write down what healing means to you for my spouse. And I am just thinking through that, like, what would that look like? Because so many times we're in this survival state. We're just trying to function. And somebody says, hey, here's a tool. Okay. I'm holding onto that with my fingertips and being able to step back in this place and say, oh, Let's look at what healing means. Most of the time we don't know what the way through is and we go step by step. And so, yeah, I just was kind of contemplating what would that look like for my clients? Because yes, we want to heal. And I also think about my own relationship where there has been betrayal and it has been a progression and there've been some hard boundaries, but it's been this progression and it's like, oh, I learned this. Oh, Maybe we need to integrate this. Oh, let me do this work over here. And so I think it's tricky even to map out what healing is for each individual, going back to what Jeff talked about earlier, based on our previous traumas, based on our culture, based on so many factors. And I think that's driving the point that you're saying is it might be complete polar opposites of what, how we see it and what we're looking at.

So let me change the question then. What if the question was, what are the signs of healing? Because the concept I've healed, right? They healed us versus what are the signs? Maybe those step signs or those signposts that say, hey, we're at least here. What are those signs?

Yeah. I mean, in response to your question, I mean, we could go through what are the signs of healing from my perspective, but I love that reframe for the couple to talk about it that way. Especially for a betrayed partner who has to, I believe, has the bigger risk of choosing back into an unsafe, potentially unsafe situation. And I get this question all the time from betrayed partners of wondering, what are the signs? How do I know? How do you prove you're not doing something anymore? What would this look like in my own life? And I think it's helpful to look around and ask questions and check in with professionals and resources and groups and so on. But to really ask yourself, like, What for me would be a sign of a healthy recovery, a person, what across from me, how would I feel healthy? What would it look like for me to feel like I'm more fully developed and maturing and stronger and more clear? The fruits of that have to be clear. I don't, I don't think it's possible to have the confidence in your healing work and in the relationship if you don't have a deep sense of what you're even looking for.

I think it's so important. Part of the healing has to be our own internal work and everything that I'm hearing you talk about. Healing is relational. We're talking about healing relationships and it is all relational. And it's so difficult to quantify with a checklist because we all know we can go through checklists of I'm doing this, I'm doing this, they're doing this, they're doing this, but it doesn't matter. Those things can be happening. But if it doesn't feel right, if it doesn't feel relational, if my mirror neurons aren't picking up that this is safe and my partner is connected, I don't think we have words to quantify. And so we use oftentimes that word connection, or I feel like it's safe, or I feel like I can trust here, or I feel like I can be a little bit vulnerable. But it's that deep down trusting my gut, listening to myself. I'm going like, oh, okay, I can see my, my partner wants to engage. And sometimes we even have to work with our parts and say, hey, step aside, protector part, because it is safe, and really listen to our body and really connect there.

And that's hard to quantify. How do I know when I'm safe? What am I picking up? What am I observing? What are those signposts? There's a term Dan Siegel uses that it just takes me back every time. How do you feel felt? Just a concept. How do we feel felt? What does that even look like in this kind of a relationship where my partner's presence, I can feel that they're with me, they're experiencing me and I'm experiencing them, that feeling felt?

Yeah, because the checklist that we're, you know, this, these, these lists of this is, you know, some people be like, you're not in recovery based on this checklist. I've seen countless examples of this. I'm sure as you guys have where someone is really doing everything by the book, having a textbook recovery, but like you just said, Kevin, their partner doesn't feel them. And that's what matters. And there's something really critical about taking your partner's— if you're the partner rebuilding trust, taking your partner's feedback so deeply serious around, I can't feel you. We'll get curious about that. What does that mean exactly? What needs to adjust? Put aside the checklist. What is still not there? And even your ability to feel them saying they don't feel felt, and that just got deep there for a second, but even your ability to stay with that could be one of the first bridges into that.

With a simple phrase, that makes sense to me. That's okay. Exactly. If you're not feeling, I understand that. I'm still here. I'm not going away. And there's a shift from that to a defensiveness. Like, are you ever going to get over this? I don't know what else to do. I've tried and tried and tried to communicate this. How many times do you want me to say I'm sorry? Yeah. Contrasting that with, that's okay right now. I'm going to honor where you're at. I just want you to know that I'm present and I'm here and I care. And I want to repair. All right. So what do we do in this situation where our perspectives of recovery are actually different? Let's say that we sat down and we made this list and this list was what healing means. And what do we do when our, our expectations are just not the same?

I think this is a complex question because it can be answered so many different ways on so many different levels. It depends on the couple. And where they're at, my initial response was to say, this probably means we need to have some mature conversations. We need to have some really honest and mature conversations. And then that's where I kind of paused for a second. Well, am I ready? Am I able to have the mature conversation? And so it really depends on where we're at. And that can be helpful. That might be a time where we might need some help from a third party, from a counselor, but I am such a proponent of doing our own individual work as well, because as we heal, as we can say, hey, this is what I'm working on, if I can share with my partner. So many times, at least for betrayed partners, one of the things that I see is if I can see my partner trying, like doing the work, not checking the boxes, but I can see wholehearted effort. Most couples don't. Enter into a relationship thinking like, I'm going to end this in a year, or I'm going to end this.

Most couples—

weird, right? But I think we genuinely usually get into relationships because we want to build a future together. And so if there is ability to see and once again, to feel, then it gives hope. So can I have a conversation? Yes, no, I'm not sure. But if I can see my partner doing their work, that might give me a little bit more permission and feel safer for me to also engage and do my work because I think hope is a component here.

So let's go to an example. Let's go to this couple's further down the road. They've been working on their healing and their recovery. And I'm going to go to your topic for the Human Intimacy Conference, Jeff, not yet. So one partner's like, when are we going to sexually reintegrate into this dynamic? And the other partner's, well, honestly, I'm not there yet. Now we have different expectations. 2 partners are being honest with each other. They're really there. But I'm not, I'm not in that space where I'm comfortable with it yet, or I'm all over the place. Sometimes I'm really sexual and sometimes I'm like, don't you dare touch me. So Jeff, give us a teaser.

Well, again, I, I'm a big fan of curiosity. I think that this is an important time when, when there's surprises like this. And there's mismatches like that, each person has to get curious about what's going on inside of themself and what's happening between them and get curious about the other person's experience. And this is very hard to do because we are full of assumptions and expectations and scripts and beliefs and needs and fears. And there's so much that's coming up for us that makes curiosity seemingly impossible. It's not impossible, but it feels like It's too risky for me to make space to care about what might be going on for this other person. And when you have mismatched recoveries, when you have mismatched ideas around closeness, touch, sex, things like that, the only way out of this, and I love the way you put it, Marian, like a mature conversation, which is with the hallmark of that's going to be curiosity.

So a starting point. And I think that curiosity starts with self, like, where am I at and how am I experiencing this? Can you imagine the spouse saying, you know, there are times where I really feel aroused and sexual, and there's times where I don't want you to touch me, and I'm all over the place, and I can own that. Or the person who acted out and said, you know, I, I love you, and I don't want to put pressure on you, and I still have sexual desires to be with you, and I'm trying to find that balance in a healthy way because I want to communicate that, that I do desire our relationship and that sexual bond. But I don't want you to feel pressure.

But I think there's an important part here about owning where you're at, owning your own emotions. Because even if my partner comes and says, hey, I'm feeling really sexual right now, and say, oh, okay, that's good to know. Thank you for sharing that. That's not where I'm at right now. That doesn't mean that I have to be where you're at. That's important for me to hear. And thank you for sharing that. But Can we hear where each other is at without that pressure? Once again, that curiosity, and maybe there's some grieving that we do together, or there's some compassion in that space. I'm really sorry. I'm not in that place where you are right now. And can we still connect in that space if we're not both ready, if we're not both in that space? And I'm just gonna throw out there, we always have to look also at just the biological differences between males and females, the way that we work. And for most females, that safety and connection has to be there. Think about, hmm, is this something that I am even ready or willing or want to engage in? It's a mental, usually a cognitive, yep, I can go there or not.

Yeah. I remember reading in Sue Johnson's book Love Sense, where she talked about a study where that proved that when women are sexually aroused, the prefrontal cortex is also lit up at the exact same time, and they're scanning for safety and, and making sure that all of that is in line. It's like they've got one foot on the gas, one foot on the brake. It's like she said, eroticism is always paired with safety in the brain. The women, it's involuntary, and it's not so much for men. So I agree that that part of slowing this down— and to me, I think that's a huge blessing for recovering couples because If you didn't have that break, then it could really do a lot of damage. And it's really important to be able to honor that and respect that, especially for both people, for the betrayed partner to, if she's a woman, to be able to say, my body is slowing us down and I'm gonna be okay with that. There's nothing wrong with me and I'm gonna honor that. And again, the other person to also just be able to say, okay, this is probably good for our relationship. These conversations are incomplete and they're necessary. And I think that those create so much development and maturity for the couple. And I love the way that you framed it and the way you slowed it down, having the betrayed partner tap into acknowledging the healthy desires and the healthy goals of the other person, but not yet, not now. We've got to slow this thing way down.

And when couples can have that kind of mature conversation, then they realize it isn't about the sex itself. No, it's about the bond and the safety that came in this difficult conversation that we could actually talk about this and it not feel like I have to retreat back into my hole because we're fighting or there's conflict. The major difference there is when couples can talk about sex in a healthy way, great things happen.

And I think like the, the other side of that is oftentimes it is so vulnerable for a partner to say. I'd like to be sexual with you. That fear of rejection, that fear of abandonment, and the shame that show up if your partner's not there, like, this is the space where that can get triggered. And that is so scary and so difficult and so, so vulnerable. And so once again, like, these are the mature conversations where there's so much vulnerability, but we also have that opportunity if we're in the right places to where we can really attach.

If somebody, your spouse says, hey, I'm in the mood, I'd like to have sexual, I could shut that down pretty— is that all you think about? It seems like that's all you want is sex. It's all you care about. I can shut that down just like that, right? And a healthy way, very different experience. I can honor that you're there. I understand that you're feeling that way. And thank you for sharing that. Just as one example, I can open you up or I can shut you down with my response.

And just because you open somebody up and stay open and validate that someone's having a separate experience than you doesn't mean you have to do anything different right this minute. It doesn't invalidate your experience and it doesn't require you to consent to something or overstep boundary or a personal limit that would put you in harm's way. It's really just about making room for another person in, in, in that space. And that's, again, that's not easy to do, but it's a really good goal to have.

I don't have to feel threatened in that position. I can understand it and honor it. And if you're not in that space, I don't have to feel rejected either. And that's the maturity that we're trying to get to in this conversation. When we have different expectations. Yeah, I know we're talking a lot about sex, but we're also talking about the bigger recovery journey. If you're not ready for connection right now, that needs to be okay. And I need to be able to allow you into that space to say it's okay right now. And that's the hard part that you're talking about there, Jeff.

And I think being able to be really honest in this space is paramount because I might say, well, I'm not going to ask for sex, or I'm not going to bring it up, or engagement because of my fear of avoidance or because I've hurt you. And so even though that may be, I want to engage and connect with you in that way, my avoidance and my fears may also get in the way. And so it does come back to how do we have these conversations where we are honest with really where we're at? Where we're fully showing up. And I do, you know, of course that does come back down again. I think we're talking a lot about the honesty and the vulnerability and the relational components that are necessary for this healing of the relationship.

All right. I really appreciate this conversation. I got a couple more questions for you guys before we close up today. So let's say that both parties, they've, they've got a list of things of what they think recovery and what healing looks like. And there, you know, there's some commonality. And then there's these differences. The differences where I see that you're doing the work. I just, I'm not feeling it. And I, the reason why I bring this up is I'm doing some research on couple healing and, and really it's an assessment that I've written for couple healing and difficult conversations. Here's the question. My partner might be trying to change, but it has not helped me feel safe or or regain trust? A majority of them say moderately true, mostly true, or completely true. Meaning I, they may be trying, I'm not feeling it. I want to talk about this because you've got one partner saying, I don't know what else to do. The other spouse saying, I'm not feeling it. These are couples' regular challenges. What do we say to these couples?

I hear this all the time, or I say this all the time rather, which is we gotta slow that down. Slow that down. It's like the chapter in the book I wrote, Love You, Hate the Porn, which is the chapter heading is We're Both Working, But It's Not Working. It's not from a lack of effort. And so when that happens, it's about tuning in and getting more clear about not panicking and not saying like, well, because I'm doing all this stuff, you should respond to me this way, right? The person who's rebuilding trust can get really entitled and indignant that all their efforts should mean this. And the betrayed partner can even beat themselves up and feel like, that should mean this to me as well. And I just want to take that completely off the table and say, it doesn't necessarily need to mean anything. So let's slow down and drop the expectations and really start to talk about what's happening for you. What's it like for you when you see this? And tuning in individually and together around these conversations starts to reveal some stuff.

I love that concept of slowing this down in that moment because I just became curious about, you're not ready. I'm curious about why. No pressure. Interest, curiosity. I want to understand. To me, that's a term I often use with my clients is deep listening. Not just a no means something else besides just no. There's emotion with it. There's thought with it. There's feelings that come with that no, I'm not in that space. If I take that as a personal threat or a rejection, then my language is going to be probably, are we ever going to have sex again? Or are you ever going to get over this again? In contrast with, that's okay that you're there right now. Could you help me understand more of what you're experiencing?

Yeah, let me breathe that in. Let me take that in. Let me be in charge of owning the meaning that I'm giving that right now. Right? If it's sort of like, no, there's a universal meaning and everybody would agree on it. Everybody knows that this is what, you know, it's like, no, no, there's so much variance in the meaning. And the meaning is something we have to each own individually.

Your thoughts, Marianne?

Well, I think sometimes we talk about recovery and maybe there's a little bit of a misconception around it because recovery isn't an event. It's a process and it ebbs and it flows. And so if, you know, one person's doing it and the other one's saying, I'm just not feeling it. If I were working with a betrayed partner, I'd say, yeah, that's really hard. Let's grieve that. And let's honor what you're feeling and let's have you listen to yourself, listen to your gut and trust that. And there might be some grief there. There, and we might have to, as you said, slow it down and work through If I'm working with the partner who is betrayed, we're going to once again, do some grief work and talk about, okay, what do you need to do? Not that you need to do more, but let's talk about the consistency. Let's talk about where you are and let's talk about how you are showing up. And there's difficulty when you're working with that couple together saying, this is really hard. And then that is the slowing down, but let's honor what's present process that so many times it's like, this is so hard. I want this to end. I want things to be better. And I'm looking for the solution. And I don't think that recovery for couples looks like that. It's like waves and it comes and it goes like it ebbs and it flows and it gets better. And it's an iteration that hopefully it's going around in the circle and it's going up. A little bit and changing, but it's a slow process. And I just want to make sure that as we talk about this, I think it's a lifelong process of deeper conversations, getting to know each other more. And it's, once again, it's just not an event.

So human intimacy, human connection is that all by itself, even without the betrayal, even without anything else, it is marriage is an ebb and a flow. Of connection, disconnection, ups and downs, going through the experiences of life. If I could add one final question for you guys today and one final thought, piggybacking off what you just said, MaryAnn, in this ebb and flow of we are going through this process, looking at what our expectations are, what healing and recovery looks like, I think that's a regular experience of just checking in with each other. Where are we? How are we doing? Are we feeling aligned and connected or are we feeling disconnected? And if so, we might need to have a conversation a little bit more frequently saying, how are we doing? But it's a regular experience of checking in with each other, tuning in with each other. Where are we? How are you? Is there something you need from me? You might have to pick your spouse up off the floor on that one there if you did it enough.

Right? Yeah. It's kind of like John Gottman's love maps where he said, you know, you you have to build a sophisticated map of your partner's world. And he said, there are some questions that you only ever have to answer once. Like, you know, where were you born? You don't have to update that every day or every week or every year. There are some questions that you will literally need an updated answer to every single day, every single week, every single year. Who are you mad at? Who are your enemies? What are you worried about? There's the map is ever evolving. And like you said, Marianne, this is a lifetime conversation. And recovery is so structured and crisis-centered, and there's a lot of scaffolding around it for couples early on. But long-term, this is really just morphing into, like you said, human intimacy and connection. And to me, that's the beauty. That's the silver lining with this really difficult process is you get on-ramped into intimacy.

I think if I could just add one more, as I was thinking about your earlier question, Dr. Skinner, I heard something from Brené Brown recently that I've just been going back to over and over again. And she talks about safety and she says, I have to be safe with myself. I have to find safety with myself. And so even if I'm in this relationship with another person, I have to be able to trust myself. I have to be able to take care of myself. I have to be able to turn to myself and have this self-reliance. And when I'm in that space, then I can show up in this relationship Or I can find the support and help, but I need to be able to be safe with myself everywhere, wherever my relationship, whatever the relationship I'm in, I've got to come back to my self-trust, taking care of myself, relying on myself, because when I do that, then I can show up fully or I can take care of myself.

I really appreciate you guys' time today. Our topic, really looking at what recovery means, maybe looking at it from different perspectives. Your final thoughts that you'd like our audience or listeners to think about?

The last thing I would say is you can take responsibility for what you believe recovery looks like. Your partner can take responsibility and then have that conversation. Get ideas from other places. That's great. And there's a lot of really smart, educated, and experienced people who are doing this work. But tune in and own what you think it looks like, talk about it with your partner, slow down, be patient, be open. And I think you'll be able to shape something that works for both of you.

I love that. I am really excited for this conference. We did the Q&A last week and it was so exciting just to hear the different people who were there saying, this is what I'm going to be sharing. This is what I'm going to be talking about. And I've just been like, wow, this is so amazing. I'm just so excited. I know last year, I learned so much from attending and it's been so valuable for me and my clients. I want to just double-check, Dr. Skinner. I think I'm right about this, but so if somebody say like a year later, 2 years later is accessing this, I just, how could, how could they access this conference?

All they have to do is go to humanintimacy.com and there they will find the 2026 conference, second annual conference, and it will, will be available for their purchase if they choose.

Yeah. So I'm excited to, for the conference and to learn, and thank you for this conversation and a wealth of knowledge.

I love talking with you guys today. Thank you so much. And to our listeners, thank you for listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner, Marianne Michalis, and our guest Jeff Stewart. Jeff, so good to catch up again. Thank you so much for your time.

It's always a pleasure. I love talking to you guys.

Thank you. Awesome.

Thanks.

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