When We Freeze: Understanding and Healing from Traumatic Shutdowns (Episode #36)

There something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh something surround you.

Hello and welcome. This is Marianne Michaelas joining you for the Human Intimacy Podcast with my friend and mentor and colleague, Dr. Kevin Skinner. Dr. Skinner, how are you today?

You know, I would say that I'm doing great, but I'm not. I've actually got Covid. So I'm going to let you do more of the talking today, Marianne, but this is such an important topic. I wanted to get it out there as soon as possible to our listening audience. And so to our listening audience, we are excited to be with you. If you notice, my voice is a little bit deeper. It's what a Covid voice sounds like, apparently. So, Marianne, I'm going to let you go ahead and take it away for our topic introduction today.

All right. So glad, so glad that you're here with us, Dr. Skinner. I'm just laughing a little bit about our role reversal here, so. But so glad to be able to talk about. The topic today that we've chosen to talk about is when we freeze. And what we'd like to talk about is the times in our lives where we have events, where we shut down, where we freeze, and times where we get stuck, where the experiences that we have are carried forward for years and years, even decades into our current present life, that we're carrying messages or responses and how deeply they impact us and talk about how to get out of them.

Yeah, I think we could get some specific examples here. Right. How many times in our office do we see individuals who. Who, when we take them back to earlier life memories, they find that they're stuck in a certain time frame, a certain age or a certain event. So it doesn't necessarily have to be an age. It could be certain events in their life that they continue to replay over and over again.

And I. And I. And as we talk about this, I'll invite our listeners just to think about an event in your life that you can instantly think about and emotions come up. I know I can sit in a session with a client and they can tell me a story that's 45 years old and they just barely bump up against it. And I can see tears. I can see the anguish. I had a client recently, I asked about resentment, and, boy, everything just started pouring out from years and years before. But it was just like it was real. Like it. Like it was so real right there.

Yeah. I think we see the traumatic experiences that we get stuck in, being bullied. One of the common one that I see especially with people who are acting out sexually. I, I think if we did a study, we would see a high percentage of, of their experience that they were bullied at some point. And, and, and I think that that's not just being bullied. It could be a, an event that they did not know how to respond to because we're really looking at when I freeze up, when I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say, I don't know how to protect myself. And, and so whatever age that is, I think the freezing up is actually more traumatizing and that's what the research shows. Peter Levine, Pat Ogden on the somatic experience. They talk about the, the concept of what when we get into the body we begin to see that people freeze. And that's actually more traumatizing than if I'm fighting or fleeing.

I'm really glad that you brought up Peter Levine because I, I really wanted to share an example from his book in an Unspoken Voice where he talks about animals when they are being hunted. There's a predator, they absolutely physically freeze up completely. He also goes on to say that just before a, a predator rips open and, and kills an animal, that, so let's just say there's like a coyote or a wolf that's chasing after a rabbit and the rabbit's there and it's frozen. Just before the attack comes, the rabbit's body gives it this, this beautiful gift of anesthesia which actually creates this numbness. So it doesn't feel anything at all as it's facing death. And our physical response that we go through when we are in traumatic experience is very similar to this. We have this freezing place where we get stuck, where we don't have a lot of emotions and we might feel really numb, we might feel even dissociated or not even present. And that's actually our bodies, it's a self preservation gift that our body's giving us. What, what do you want to add to that, Dr. Skinner?

You know, I, I think one of my favorite stories from his is the guinea pig, right? And, and, and that's where the researchers, you know, they, they took a guinea pig and it was moving around and they took it and they turned it upside down its back and it got over, turned over and did the same thing. And, and after, you know, a few times of doing that, the guinea pig, they could go to lunch, the guinea pig would be there 90 minutes later. And, and I think that that's a really important concept. Because when we get stuck on events or specific age experiences, then what that, that freeze response is, it's actually our body's way of protecting us. Unfortunately, when we get stuck at certain ages it, it can prevent us from maturing into new adult life experiences.

Yeah, that's a great segue. I know you talked earlier about sex, sexual addiction or sexual acting out behaviors and going back to that, that youth time of, of sexual development and when we are bullied or when we have traumatic experiences, often times turning to sexual behaviors helps us feel good. And it can be used as a I'm coping with this or I'm self medicating or soothing or I'm trying to move out of not feeling into feeling something as unhealthy as that may be if it turns into, into a pattern. But it is usually as a response to that freezing, you know, and, and.

I could even take it a little bit deeper. I can be stuck or frozen in shame. I remember a few years ago I was working with an individual whose mother caught him self stimulating and the message was, you're a sinner, you're, you've got to repent and you better do it now. He was like seven and, and not educating, not understanding the mother in, in her own way trying to help the child. You, you know, again I'm going to say the best she could put an incredible shame on him. And it wasn't just that one time, it was over and over she would caution him, are you still doing that? You still doing that? You're still doing that. And so the message was, I'm not enough for my mom, I'm a sinner. Right? I've made so many mistakes and if I don't repent I can't be forgiven. That kind of emotional intensity can keep us stuck in memories or experiences. So as we work through, I'm going to call it a traumatic experience. And again, he loved his mom. But what he didn't understand is how that had influenced him for years because he never felt like he was enough. And there's the stuck belief, I'm not enough.

Can I explore this just a little bit? Because I'm going to make an assumption and you can tell me if I got this right since you're talking about somebody that you've interacted with. But my assumption is that his belief that he derived from that and he's told you're a sinner, you've got to fix this. And that shame that kept coming was that I'm not enough for God or God doesn't love me. And so if God can't love me, then how could my mom love me or how could anyone else love me? And that would be a very young belief to carry and to integrate and to carry forward. Does that fit for.

Yeah, yeah, I think, let's put it, you know, again, I. In 30 years of experience, I could take many, many cases that, that parallel this type of a situation. I mean, I could also go to individuals who were abused or witnessed abuse, somebody who witnessed a parent who emotionally degraded them, criticized them, put them down. I can be stuck in certain emotional experiences. I'm not enough. And I was told over and over again. Another example of that is when we have individuals who didn't get straight A's and told they were. And were told that they were stupid because they didn't get straight A's. And so we can go to specific events or specific memories. Again, we've just shared a couple of them, but most people, when they do their deeper work, what they come to realize is there are certain moments that still replay over and over in their mind.

Well, let me add to that. Sometimes we seek out experiences that may repeat or replicate those experiences. And so we call that traumatic reenactment. And what we're actually doing is our brain is trying to recreate and resolve with a positive resolution something that didn't resolve the first time because it's traumatic. It's trying to close it up and resolve it because there's still an open wound there. And so when we find ourselves in these repetitive patterns and cycles, I don't know why I'm doing this. This doesn't make sense. But it's because we're psychologically at a psychological, subconscious level trying to repair that wounding. What do you want to add to that?

I think this concept of traumatic repetition is incredibly valuable here because when we repeat a traumatic event, sometimes we do it subconsciously, trying to finish the story. To our listeners who've heard me talk about the Zeigarnic effect, I think this is a perfect example of coming back to an unresolved experience. And when we do that enough, we don't question it anymore. We go back to the memory, to the experience, and it's as if it is true. And so we go back and we're like, I want to finish it a different way. I can't tell you how many times people have gone back to, say, pornography right after a. They acted out in it for the first time. Out of curiosity. I think they're going back to get a high. But when they get, say ashamed to that. Then they go undercover, but they're going back because they're trying to resolve the underlying message, you're bad. There's something wrong with you. And so I think part of that is the curiosity. The other part of it is the underlying message, what's so bad about this? What makes me bad? And I think that repetition, when people get stuck there, they're trying to finish a story, and when you can't finish the story, that's where we get stuck.

And I know I've heard you talk in the past about people who will be seeking out exes or looking out exes, and sometimes even that's part of trying to go back and close up a wound or find some resolution. I know I've had clients who have had things that they've done that they have felt guilty about or shameful about or questionable and even trying to contact previous, you know, somebody from high school that had been their boyfriend or girlfriend because they had a question in their mind about how it resolved and about the guilt that they're carrying with that. And so they're seeking out, trying to once again find that resolution because they're frozen with those emotions that are.

Exactly. So, again, we could take a myriad of issues. When we get frozen, we typically repeat trauma, repetition, unresolved issues. So I think that really leads us into the next part of this is how do we get unstuck if we have been frozen? What are the things that help and will help those who are listening?

So one, one of the tools that I use with my clients when we're trying to understand how we've gotten stuck, first of all, I think we need to start to understand our story, finding a safe place to tell our story. And when I'm working with a client, I often, just as they tell their story, we can notice where kind of like the hot points are, where the emotions show up. And that's usually a good spot to say, hold on a second, what's going on here? Let's go and look a little bit deeper. And it's usually in those spots where we have a core belief, a belief that we tell ourselves as story that's in the back of our head that says, I'm a loser. I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. God doesn't love me, mom doesn't love me. Whatever it is for a betrayed partner, I often hear, my body's not enough. There's something wrong with me. I'm not fun enough in the bedroom. And so these are internalized beliefs that we're carrying. I think it's important to stop and say where, where's, where's the energy? Where's the pain? And let's start to unravel these beliefs. One of the tools that as an EMDR therapist that we often use is going back and saying, let's talk about all the times that you felt the same sensation like in your body or that you've had this belief come up. So we can usually track it, that if I have something that I'm freezing on today or that's triggering me today, or big emotions that are showing up today, I can usually track those back back into my childhood, back into earlier times in my life where I felt that. And that's usually where, where I want to start to unpack, unravel that story. Because as a five year old or a seven year old, I'm thinking very concretely. I'm not using a lot of abstract, a lot of logic, a lot of reasoning. My prefrontal cortex hasn't really developed yet. And so my thinking at that time, where I develop my belief or that intern, that internalized belief starts there. So I usually would want to start at that space. What about you, Dr. Skinner? Where do you go with that?

Yeah, I think what you introduced there is, is one of the core concepts, the first an EMD use a concept, Francine Shapiro, using emdr. The first or the worst, or I often will say the most intense. So I think when we look at individuals who are stuck at certain phases or certain events or certain experiences, we typically can go to, it is the worst or it was the first. And I think that's where we do, we really do get stuck in certain time frames. And, and I've seen over and over in my career where people go back to difficult memories, events, anxious experiences where they felt that internalization of anxious. I don't feel safe. And really they've never felt safe because of what occurred to them. They feel like I don't, don't know where my safe spot is. And that's where I think we can get stuck. And so it can happen when you're acting out. It can happen with anxiety. It can happen with traumatic memories and events that continue to influence our lives in a variety of ways. And I think that's why it's so important to say if you're experiencing this, getting professional help, this is not light work. This going into these, this is difficult work that takes a lot of emotional, I'm going to use the word safety to feel safe. Enough to open up to these very, very difficult life experiences.

Absolutely. I know part of the EMDR training is really about helping your clients get, have the tools and resources to manage the emotions and the. Everything that may come up. And so I absolutely second that. Getting help, getting support for that, you.

Know, in the somatic experience. And in fact, most trauma experts, they say that you don't take someone into a traumatic event unless they have built a safe place. So if you are stuck, this isn't something that we willy nilly just do. If you have events or experiences that seem to be replaying or your, your repetition, you're going back to similar stories or events and you're trying to create different outcomes. Well, I'll tell you what, that's where I think finding a professional therapist who can create that safe environment with you and then help you navigate through some of those most difficult memories that you've had.

Yeah. So then let's look at, let's say I don't have a therapist that I'm working on or I'm not ready to do that work right now. I think it's important for us to maybe talk about some other tools that could be helpful and one of the tools that I like to walk through with my clients. I know you've talked about this in some other podcasts, but understanding the polyvagal theory that looks at we step into fight orf flight. So when I'm we. We've got three systems in our body. Basically part of our autonomic nervous system. And we've got the ventral where we're connected, we're social, we're curious, and we've got this great connection between our heart and our, and our, and our brain. And then we've got our sympathetic nervous system, which is where we are stepping into our fight or flight, which means that we're either going to be avoiding or confronting. And that's not usually a safe place. Usually. Our heart rate's changing, all of our chemicals in our body are changing, our heart rates changing, our blood vessels are getting bigger, more blood is going to our extremities and certain systems like our digestion, our reproductive system by fighting off a bear. I don't need those parts. I don't need those systems. So our body's shutting those down and. But then when we step into the dorsal, that's what we. That's our frozen so fight, flight or freeze. That frozen part is our dorsal and that is where our body is preparing for death. Just like we. I mentioned earlier about the, the animal the rabbit that's, that's ready for death. And the body gives it that. The anesthesia. So when we're in this, this dorsal place, this is where we're often shutting down, where we're really stuck, where we're numb, our heart rate goes down, even our ability to, to sense somebody's face, like their facial features, everything just slows down.

Yeah. I think it's important to bring up here the concept of when we are frozen again, it's a. More a traumatic experience because. Or flight, we're able to do something. So the somatic experience, they would say the dorsal vagal shutdown may be the most traumatizing because I'm not fighting, I'm not fleeing. And so I'm more likely to feel hopeless or helpless, like it doesn't matter what I do. And I think that that's why when individuals continually to act out or they continue, or a betrayed partner continually feels betrayed, or a person who's constantly feeling anxious, or a person who's come to a conclusion because of depression that they're not enough, they'll never be enough. When you draw those types of conclusions and you accept them as truths, that's where we get stuck because we no longer challenge them. We just simply accept it as a truth.

Yeah. And. And just as you're saying that, it. It feels so heavy. Say, I don't have any other options, so I'm just going to prepare for death.

You know, one of. One of my favorite stories with this actually comes from Dr. Joseph LeDoux. A few years ago, before podcasts, I was actually doing Internet radio. And I had the opportunity to do this for quite a few years. And, and I, I had the opportunity to influence. To. I mean, he's a major influencer. Dr. Joseph LeDoux, the neuroscience. And so he, you know, he came on the Internet radio with me and we recorded something. But he taught me something incredibly valuable that day. He said when individuals go into experiences or events, they take a memory, they take an experience, and. And we can freeze up with it. So example 9 11. And he said, you know, he wrote an article, and this is actually why I reached out to him. He wrote an article about the best thing that we could do after an event like 9 11. And here's what he said. He said, After 9 11, what did we do? We sat on our couches and watched the planes fly into the Twin Towers or into a field. We watched it over and over and over. And he said, metaphorically, we froze in that time frame because we felt helpless. We Felt hopeless. What can we do to create change? I can't. How do I help those people who are suffering? How do we do that? And he said in the article, and then in the interview that I had the opportunity to do with him, he said something so fascinating to me. He said the. The. Metaphorically, he said, the best thing that we can do is actually shut off the tv, get off the couch. And he then continued and get on with our life. He said, that actually creates a new neural pathway. And I'm like, yeah, but, but, but when people are frozen, he said, look, here's the reality. We actually took rats and we put them in cages where we made them feel helpless and hopeless. It didn't matter where they went. They would get shocked. And he's like, they froze. They absolutely froze. And then we put them in an exactly identical environment where if they moved, they would get less shock to the point if they went over the corner, there would be no shock. He said, the rats that actually moved to the corners, we watched them develop new neural pathways, which is exactly the opposite of what we think when we're frozen. Sometimes it's a simple action getting unfrozen. Taking an action is actually how we move through an event or a traumatic event. So for some people, it's talking with somebody. For other people, it's writing it down in a journal. For other people, it's imagining what they wanted to do in those events so they can create a story of them being free, of them being strong, of them being vibrant, fighting strong. And when they take action, new neural pathways are created. That's the beauty of this neuroplastic brain that we all have. When we take action, when we've been frozen, we create new neural pathways. And that was one of the most powerful concepts that I learned from Dr. LeDoux, is when we feel frozen, we need to create action. And that action we take, it's going to be very difficult, but metaphorically, we have to get off the couch, shut off the television, and move forward.

I love that. And I remember listening to a recording of that. I hope you'll put that in our show notes if you still have that. That was such a great interview. You bring up for me a couple of things that I want to address, so bear with me. But Bessel, Vandal Van der Kolk's book, the Body Keeps a Score, he also talks about this, getting stuck in that moment. And I don't know if you remember, but he has a. An image that a grade schooler, I think, Drew, and it was of A trampoline or something to catch the people that were coming out. And he talks about, here's a solution this child was drawing out. Here's what I see, this trauma that's happening. But the child is finding a metaphorical solution which allowed, I think, that getting up off of the couch and. And moving.

Great. That's a great example. Right. Because the. A child, I mean, again, brilliant. The child comes up with a solution to save lives. Why, why, why don't we. Right. And. And I think that that is what, metaphorically, what we long for when we've experienced trauma is. Is. Is a solution, a way to get unstuck, to get unfrozen from whatever the event was.

Yeah. And it is about that getting unstuck so my brain doesn't get stuck there, because here's the solution, which I would. I would add in there. You know, we talked for a moment about EMDR and art. Accelerated resolution therapy is. Is a tool that I love because it really lets you do it brings in so much of that creative solutioning. But I want to go back to as you were talking about the. The rats in the cages. I think it's important in the body keeps the score. Once again, Bessel Vander Kolk talks about some research they did. I think it was in Russia, and they had some dogs in some cages. And he talked about there was the River Rose, and they had to get the dogs out of the cages. But because they'd been doing some of the. The shocking like that, the electrical shocks, some of the animals, they opened the gates and said, hey, come on, get out of the cage. But some of these animals were stuck in the back corner. And some. There's this learned helplessness that we can really. I think that's the stuckness where we learn to be in this stuck state. They tried to pull the animals out of the cages, and some of the animals just didn't want to come out because they were. I don't know if it's comfortable, but they were really stuck in that place.

The learned helplessness. One of the initial authors of that, Martin Seligman, he was one of the original researchers in one of the studies where. Where they were doing that with German shepherds, and. And he, you know, he. Now looking back in time, he said, we learned a lot from that may not have been the most, you know, animal appropriate behavior, but he said, the learned helplessness concept has been so incredibly helpful. And then he said in his. One of the things that I have found is he's now come up With a new concept. And he's actually found it from one of his students. He said. He said learned helplessness can be unlearned. And so his student actually showed him the process. And it's actually in our brain. It's a concept of hope, he calls it. And he actually titled his book Hope Circuit. And in the book Hope Circuit, he actually talks about his journey from the very first learned helplessness. And then he acknowledges, I was wrong. When our brain senses that there is hope, it does something where it nav. It begins to navigate options, alternatives. And that's another critical concept to the healing journey, is that you look for alternatives. One of my favorite ways to do that is actually the Avengers.

And more about that.

Yeah, well, okay, so here's the story, right? So in the second to last one, the analysis of Dr. Strange was he looked at all the possible scenarios. And I often wondered, why did he give the. Whatever the guy's name the ring? Why did he give him the power? And the final one, you see that it was the only option that would actually save half the population. And so when there is hope, then there is a circuit inside of us that starts working towards at that outcome. And that's what I would say to individuals who feel stuck. That concept of hope, looking towards something, it's incredibly powerful. You may not know the answer today, but when you look and you find something that's like, well, I wonder what. I wonder if. Is it possible those types of questions can be empowering to help us get unstuck?

Yeah, can I. If I can break that down just a little bit, because it might feel like if our reach even for our listeners to say, how do I go from being frozen to hope? Because there's a gap there. And one of the tools that comes from Deb Dana's book, the Polyvagal Theory. She talks about what I. What I can do and what I need other people to do for me. And so I had a client who taught me a great lesson where she said, when I'm stuck, when I'm frozen, I have created a list of what I can do for me and what I need help from, for others. And I have it stuck inside my cup cupboard. All I know is I need to get a drink, because that's the only thing. When I'm stuck, all I can think I need to get a drink. And she'll go and she'll open the cup cupboard because she has to get a cup to get a drink in there. Taped inside her cup cupboard is her list of her things okay, here's some things I can do for me. I can turn on some music, I can go for a walk, I can do some breathing, I can do some meditating, I can, you know, she's got her list of things she turns to and if those don't feel qu right then she can reach out to somebody else. And she may have people that she's already created systems with where she sends them like a X as a text, which means I'm not functioning, but I'm reaching out and it's all I can do. I can't even tell you where I'm at, but they already know. So she's already got this plan and I think that at least for a lot of my clients is maybe a bridge to get to that hope. I can hope that if I get a drink then I can figure out a tool and I can maybe get to that space that will help me.

Yeah, I love that concept because a cue, that's what you referred to as a cue is when I have a specific emotion where I typically have frozen. The cue is I have to get a drink. I go get a drink, open up the cupboard. Now I have a list of things that my brain in that emotional hijacking which can easily occur and I can freeze up. I have a list of things I could turn on. Music, does that help me regulate and, and if nothing's working, I can reach out to my support team. And I love that because it's actually self soothing music, something that calms you and then reaching out co regulation which actually helps you not feel stuck because you've done something proactively which is incredibly powerful.

I think about this as you were talking about that, I also thought about in your book Trading Sex Addiction A.

Compassionate Approach to Recovery.

Thank you. I didn't want to get the rest of that wrong. I know you talk about having Your list of 5 things to do and I love the story where you talk about meeting with a client and he's like, here's my five things that I can do. But one was like play the piano but. And you said, well wait a second, if it's 11 o' clock at night, is that going to work at your house? Or I can go for a walk. Well, if it's 20 degrees below zero, are you going to go for a walk at 11 o' clock at night? And so also making, making sure that what we're putting on our list of our queue, we, we've got the queue and then here are the things that I can do. Making sure that there are things that will work.

That's exactly right. So when you create your list, put it in application. When is this most likely to occur? What time? And. And what happens if this list is not working? What's my go to. And. And usually I have found that when I reach out to someone else, giving a voice is. Is one of the most empowering ways to lose that fear and not stay stuck over and over again. When people begin to take action, you see, like Dr. LeDoux said, you see them feeling a sense of hope because they've gone to the corner, metaphorically, they've gotten up off the couch. Taking action is incredibly helpful when you have been frozen.

And just adding to that. That other human connection element, I think is so important. I remember in my EFT training, they talked about when we're stuck. When we're frozen, our prefrontal cortex isn't really running. We're not thinking logically. We're not thinking well. We are frozen and stuck, and so renting. I just remember the phrase the trainer used. He said, we rent out somebody else's cognitive space. And so I might need to say, I can't think this through. I need your cognitive space because yours is freed up and mine is stuck.

That's a beautiful way to look at this, because when we're frozen, we may not know how to get ourselves out. And that's why reaching out, talking with somebody, giving it a voice, as I often say, when we do that, it can be empowering, and other people can help us navigate that if they're safe and if they are willing to understand us. I found that sometimes people reach out and it actually freezes them up more because they feel judged or they feel like the person's just giving them, well, you should do this. You should do this. So you got to make sure that you've found the right people to help you in those difficult moments.

I love that. If they're safe, that is incredibly important. Yeah. So I know we need to begin wrapping up. What. What are your final thoughts that you want to leave with our listeners today? Dr. Skinner?

You know, I think if I could just close it up, I. I hope that some of the concepts we've talked about today give you, our listeners, some ideas. If you have experienced moments where you've been frozen. I do know that when you take action, when you create lists, when you get a plan and you feel empowered, healing is accelerated. It is possible. And again, some of these things, you're going to want to make sure that you have the proper Support, because this is not something you take lightly. When we are frozen, the research shows that it's the most traumatic that we can experience. And so getting through that, you're going to experience a wide range of emotions. In fact, Deb Danis, she said that when we are frozen, we have to go through the fight or flight to get to the ventral vagal where we actually feel calmer or safer. So you have to be able to go through the difficult emotions that you don't feel comfortable with. Fight, flee. And you might find yourself enraged. And that's why it's important to have extra support during those difficult times.

Thank you so much, Dr. Skinner. I would just add to that and I think this might be my tagline at the end of every one of our podcast, but I always come around to the self compassion part as well. I'm going to guess that if you're stuck or if you've been stuck, that it, it's, you've probably been there for years and it's been a long time and it will take time to, to heal. It will take a long, it will take some time to work through. And so I would encourage our listeners to give yourself a lot of grace and a lot of space and to know that there is hope and to know that you're not alone and just to give yourself a lot of self compassion. And we are so grateful for you joining us today and we hope this will be helpful for you. Dr. Skinner, you look like you want to say something. What do you want to ask?

No, I just, I just want to say thanks to our listeners. You know, it is. I, I love getting the feedback. I love, you know, getting questions. I love just being able to hear about people's experiences. So just, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to listen. We know that your time is valuable and so we want to express our grat about you.

Thank you so much.

Smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh Something surround you it's like you're shining, you're staring.