When You Want Change & Your Partner Isn’t Ready (Episode #89)

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Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something's around. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner Marianne Michaelis, Licensed clinical social worker Marianne Fall is upon us and it's here. We've got snow on the mountaintops. Anyway, Marianne, we've been talking about this, how we change, but in particular today we want to focus on what happens when you want change and your partner doesn't. Your initial thoughts Marianne.

Last week we had like a teaser for this and so I know it might be on some of our listeners minds like okay, how are we going to jump in and dive into this? This goes beyond betrayal, this goes beyond, I think this is just a really far reaching topic. What happens when one person in the system decides that they need change and the other one doesn't or isn't ready? Now we drive it up against this question of I'm ready to change and I have to change or something's changing for me. And this is a really hard place. And so for our listeners and viewers, I think today we're going to be talking about some really mature conversations and really inviting you to look introspectively as you listen and contemplate the things that we're going to be sharing today.

When I reflect on the cases that I've observed over my career, I've seen it go both directions when we've leaned into hard conversations like I have to have changed. In contrast with maybe I'm not ready for change, but you are ready for change and hitting that spot where two people recognize we need something to be different. Often in our field of marriage and family therapy, there's a term that we use called homeostasis and homeostasis is that we typically, when something's out of order, offline, it doesn't quite fit with the norm, then we want to bring it back into the normal pattern. And change takes us out of that state of homeostasis and into a state of what feels like chaos or uncomfortable feelings inevitably is going to bring us to a place of discomfort. And when I look at that process, when one spouse is like, I need this to be different, and their spouse or partner isn't ready, then we get into this fear, right? Wait, I'm not ready for this. Or, why aren't you willing to join me in this? Because I can't keep doing it the way that we're doing it. And so today we really want to emphasize, you know, if we're on the same page, we both might be scared. Okay, we're scared. But if one's on this, I need change, and the other is like, I'm not ready for change. Now we have a place where difficult decisions have to be made.

What comes to my mind as you're saying that, Dr. Skinner, is the research that talks about, if there's a mountain and somebody says, hey, how hard is it for you to get to the top of that mountain? Somebody might rate it and say, oh, that's a five out of five. That's just looks so hard. But if they have somebody next to them saying, hey, we're going to do this together, suddenly that perceived degree of difficulty diminishes significantly. As you're talking about that change, what I heard you talking about is there are some changes that are personal, and there are some changes that if we have connection, if we have support with the other person, whether we're changing together or we're supporting each other in that change, it looks very, very different. I think change is also necessary. When we look at little children, they go from not being able to turn over to learning and growing them. You know, they develop muscles to turn over. Most of the time they roll off of something and hit their head as their. I didn't know the baby was turning over yet. And now they're on the floor, and then they crawl, and then they walk and there's falling down, and there's learning and mastery and, you know, babies, we celebrate. Yay. That's so exciting. Look at that. You did that. But we don't usually do that with adults. Yay, you're changing. I'm so proud of you. Because oftentimes there is an impact on us. It does make it harder having raised little children, kids that are not mobile, who suddenly become mobile. It's the change for everybody. It becomes more difficult. Change that feels threatening. And recognizing this is part of normal development.

I'm ready to change. I want this to be different. Talking with my spouse about it, or maybe a child, or talking with somebody in a business setting, I need change. Well, we're typically afraid to have those conversations because we don't like conflict. I don't want to fight with you. I don't want this to come between us. So we often hold back in that change process. And so we talk about the stages of change. Now we are going to apply it to couples. We talked about it as an individual of pre contemplation. Contemplation. And pre contemplation is we're not. We're not functional. Maybe as a couple, we're fighting, we're arguing. We don't even realize that what we're doing is really just. We know that it doesn't feel right, but we don't know what to do about it. The pre contemplation shifting into contemplation, something we're doing isn't working. Like, this is not for our coupleship. I can't keep it up. That's where I see couples really coming into my office or an individual saying, I love my spouse. But where we're at right now, the way it's going, I can't continue down this pathway. That's really the contemplation stage in the coupleship of I can't do it anymore.

I think when I hear that stage, what I hear more than anything is almost this hopelessness because it feels like I don't know how to fix this. I don't have the tools. I just know that I'm miserable. And so my only other option is my clients don't have the tools or know how to get from hopelessness to finding hope because it's so bad. It's so hard.

Yeah. And that's where we get into an awareness of, I am thinking black or white. Is it possible? And sometimes I hear people say, well, I've tried everything. Or we have tried everything. And often when I talk with them about what they've tried, rarely do they get down into the real details of, well, we tried this. Well, we went to counseling. Well, did the counseling work? Well, kind of, but we didn't have all the information, or this therapist didn't have all the information. So for me, when people make decisions about some of the most important things of their life, we really need to shift in that contemplation stage to preparation. What does it look like? How do we communicate differently? I remember being trained to do the drama triangle, or Cartman triangle, in 2013 with the Thomas Tulos, and he was role playing with therapists, and he had them take on different roles. And he continued to do this triangle drama triangle, showing them how they fought and why they were fighting. And oh, my gosh, when he was done, I was like, that was absolutely amazing. Watching these therapists who were role playing get to a point where they had solved something. And what I realized in that it was a skill that brought insight and awareness into these therapists who were role playing. But then I started applying it in my practice, and fortunately for me, I was able to watch almost tolos do it a couple more times. And now I'm trained in it. And I train therapists all over the world in how to help individuals break out of unhealthy patterns. And when people come to me for an intensive, it's one of the core skills that we teach in a variety of ways, because if people can learn how to break patterns, they actually get more confidence. So I think what's happening in the stages of change for couples, change is they're not properly prepared to create the change that's going to last. And that's why I think, students, a role play like the drama triangle with couples has been so effective throughout my career.

Yeah. Dr. Skinner, I've seen you do the drama triangle multiple times, and it's so fascinating to watch and to learn and to have witnessed. And I think as we become more aware with couples and individuals, as we become aware of our cycles, that is part of that change. Where are we at? But those patterns, like the cycles that we get into, can be so difficult to even kind of rise above and even see just because of the emotions and the conflict that we're sitting in the middle of the.

Yeah. And so as I go through that process and what helping couples, because when you do a role play, and it's really a very interactive role play, when I do it with couples, they start to see that their fight is usually about something that they are not even aware of. Usually there's an unresolved issue from their relationship from childhood that begins to surface. And as we do this interactive role play, we begin to see those stories come into how they're currently fighting. My whole point in this, Marianne, is unless we understand the patterns and why we do what we're doing, we're on autopilot. And most of the time, it's hard to change when you do the same things over and over again, because you're not going to get the results that you want because what you've been doing hasn't been working. So the change process is pausing to understand the pattern and then intentionally implementing new strategies to alter those patterns. And that's a preparation process. So to our listeners, if you find that you're fighting over the same things, if you find that one of you is pulling away, the other one's pursuing, then one partner stops pursuing and the other person realizes they're not being pursued anymore. And now we switch roles. You've got the person who is pursuing, then you got the distancer. That's a very common pattern for couples and how they fight. When you find your pattern in most couples, when I ask them the question, can you tell me about how you argue or how you disconnect or how you fight? They can tell me, well, when my partner does this, I do this. And unless we understand that, Marianne, I think we're couples are just going to keep doing what they're doing and get discouraged and disappointed like nothing is changing.

This is what Sue Johnson talks to. She. Sue Johnson calls us the dance that you take this step, I take this step, and it's just like there's music and we just automatically know. And she talks about. We have to, one, start to recognize our pattern. And two, then we have to say, oh, this is our pattern. We have to exit. And that's also what the drama triangle is, is recognizing, oh, I'm the victim and you're the perpetrator. And then at some point we have to say, hey, we gotta stop and step out of this.

So one thing about the drama triangle, it's interesting because Dr. Cartman talks about three specific roles. Right mentioned the persecutor role, the victim role, and the rescuer role. The reason why they're not effective is because even the persecutor is going to be using language like you never. Criticism, contempt. That typically the John Gottmans for Horsemen. The other role, the victim role, typically is a role of you're hurting me and all right, or I'm not enough, and I'm never going to be enough. And so I'm. I'm a victim of your aggression. And so couples, when they fight, they fight typically in those two roles. But you will also find the rescuer role, which. Where I am trying to rescue the relationship, but I'm trying to do it in a way that is my will, not our will. And so it's rescuer role. Is often found to be ineffective because it's. I'm trying to ram down my approach to this change process, and those don't.

Or I may be using addiction to avoid the process or something else, trying to rescue the relationship in some way that doesn't necessarily help us.

It's not effective. And so when we understand that that pattern is typically happening, it's amazing to me when couples start to see how they're doing that, and I walk them through how they're doing that. There's so many times where I will say, when your partner says this, maybe they feel like their partner's angry at them and they're yelling at them. How old do you feel? And it's amazing to me how often I hear 8 years old or I hear 5 years old. It's a pattern. Who else did that? Well, that was my dad. That was my mom. That was my teacher. That was my coach. And what you begin to recognize is when we get into these committed relationships, we're often unpacking unresolved issues from our past. And so when we talk about the stages of change, you have to have awareness. But when couples come to our office, they don't have that kind of awareness, so they don't really understand why they're doing what they're doing. Why are you not listening? And why this? Well, your tone of voice made you appear like your mom or a grandma or somebody was yelling at an earlier age to your spouse. And that pattern, Marianne, plays out in almost every conflict that I watch in my office.

I looked at something, I said, this is the one I really like. And she said, well, what about this one? She kept pushing me over to these other things. I just kept going, no, this is the one. This feels so good for me. This is it. She kept saying, well, this one has some other colors. What do you think? Like, I respect that. But this is the one that's calling my name. It's screaming at me, said, you know, let's take some time, and let's put it in the car. Like, let's take it home and see what it looks like in the lighting of my house. And as we were loading it into the back of my car, the sunlight hit it, and it was just like, oh, that's lovely. And she just kind of said, yeah, you'd think I have a degree or something in this, Marianne. But I think this is such a simple example. Like, I came in with, here's what's calling my name. This is what I know, the essence of what we're Talking about roles that we were so used to that feel so normal. And so something calls my name, and it makes me say, oh, this is really hard for me to even see something from a different perspective. But this outside perspective can say, I think that you really might like this because of these things that you're not able to see in a different environment, in a different space, suddenly I could see things a little bit differently. And I think that's the essence of what we're talking about. We get ingrained. We get stuck with our perspective, how we see, how we feel. And I do think it's very emotional. It comes down to what's going on inside of me, my emotions about this. And that's why this is so hard, because it feels like, ooh, I might be giving something up.

But when we're willing to step back and say, is it possible that I'm missing something, that I'm not seeing something, that willingness to be open to that kind of feedback, even if you don't agree with your spouse, that prepares you for a more meaningful dialogue. So remember the stages of change. Pre contemplation. Contemplation, preparation. Literally, listening to your spouse is actually the preparation process for your relationship to be a more meaningful connection. A few months ago, my wife came to me with a situation in our relationship, and she said, I've been observing this, and I hadn't seen it. It was a blind spot. It was an absolute blind spot. I hadn't seen it. And she said, this is what I'm experiencing, and this is how it is. And that was very courageous of her. It was something that I had not. It was a blind spot. I had not seen it. And it was very productive for her to do that. But I know she was anxious, right? She didn't want conflict, but she came with a place of, I love you, I care, and I'm observing this. And it took me a period of time and literally a few weeks of stepping back and saying, how did I miss this? What have I been missing? And as I contemplated, like, you know, she's probably right, and I have not been seeing this a blind spot. And so I think in relationships, that also means that we have to be open to feedback rather than being resistant to it. Because I think what happens to us is, in general, Marianne, is that we're right in our minds. This is how I see my world. And every once in a while, I think if we step back, we're going to realize the way that we've created the world. Maybe there are other options or maybe there are other opportunities to see things through a broader lens.

What you're talking about is, at least for me, you know, I dig my heels in with change. I think we all do. I say I'm a percolator. I need like some time to marinate and to really think about an idea. And that is part of the change process. But when somebody comes and says, here's something to look at, just as you talked about, you said it took you a couple of weeks. I think all of us recognizing the courage that you talked about with your wife coming and saying, here is this. It takes us all some time. And at first it can feel really threatening. We might feel really defensive about it. And it can feel like, wait a second, think on a broader scale. We've got a scale here. There's, you know, maybe I don't like the way that you're leaving the toilet seat up or you're putting away the dishes or something versus something much bigger. As we deal with infidelity and betrayal, that's a much greater scale. But looking at the scale of staying, what happens when we come to our partner and say, this is a problem for me, we lose control of the outcome. And we're asking our partner to change, to do something differently, to acknowledge, to accept that something needs to change. And it's not in my control to change you, but I can come and say, can you change this? And you get to say yes or no or. Or, let's pick a third option. But that's really hard and really scary because I have a lot to lose. If you say no, then I know that. I know that a lot of our listeners, I know a lot of my clients deal with this. If my partner says no, does that mean my relationship's over? This is. This is a big deal.

And so there's something really important that we describe here is I might want to have this difficult conversation about afraid that my partner may say no or they may reject whatever it is that I'm asking for. And yet we have to ask ourselves a question. Can I continue living the way this is? And this is a very difficult situation, especially when we lean into difficult topics. Aggression, abuse, infidelity, addictive behaviors with substances or substance misuse or other challenging behaviors, the way we're interacting with children, inappropriate actions of anger towards children or others. When we look at these patterns, Marianne, we have to stop and say, what are we doing? What patterns are working and which ones aren't working for the well being of our family, for the well being of me, and my health. I've often talked with individuals who have chosen at times like, I can't continue this way, and if it does continue this way, I can't be in this relationship. It's a mature conversation, but sometimes it's absolutely necessary. When you are ready for that meaningful conversation, it means that you're not going to go in with aggression. You're not going to be critical, you're not going to be demeaning. You're going to have prepared to have a meaningful conversation of, here's what I'm experiencing. I don't know how to solve it, but if things continue in this way, I'm going to have to respond in a way that isn't my preference. That's not what I want. And if you're prepared for that conversation, Marianne, I think what happens is it creates an opportunity for the spouse to respond without feeling like they have to defend or protect themselves. It's. I'm presenting, this is where I'm at.

Let me, let me add a little bit more to that, because I think what's really important for us to recognize here, if my partner comes to me and says, hey, here's something I need to talk to you about. Here's an issue, here's something that I need to have change in our relationship, I might feel blindsided. I didn't see it coming. Just like you said, I had this blind spot. I wasn't aware of it. And so even if I've been working with my therapist and we've role played, we've got everything all figured out, I think it would be naive for me to expect that my spouse is going to have a great reaction to it. I think they're going to be shocked. I think they might be confused. I think they might think, I'm not sure even how to make sense of this. I might need some time to figure this out rather than, here it is, I'm laying it all out on the table for you. Pick A or B. You know, reflecting on that change process, I'm bringing my partner an idea and I want to make the exception. If we're talking about safety, that's a whole different category. But I do think that we need to give space for the change and.

Space meaning I need to step back and give you some time to reflect on what's actually happening here. Again, how I present it. I would like to work through this because our relationship matters. These type of what my friend Ken Pate called precursors, like leading into an important conversation. That precursor is, I want this to work out because I care about our relationship and I can't continue with whatever this behavior is. It's not either or. It's, I want this and I can't continue the way that we're doing it right now. It doesn't work for me that that's a more difficult conversation. But it also shows a maturity on my part to be able to communicate authentically. This is my need. This is who I want to be. This is the kind of marriage I want to have. And I think this requires people to really spend time in that preparation stage. You might need a role play with a therapist. You might really think about what you're trying to accomplish in this important conversation. Can we talk on Wednesday? Can we talk on Sunday? Can we have this time? Because this is really going to be an important conversation. And I just want to make sure that I do it right because I care about us. That's the taking action. And then with that conversation, getting a game plan, having a strategy again. We're talking about the stages of change in a relationship now. Let's implement some of these changes when we find that we're in the old pattern and we're doing the same things. A timeout. Hey, let's step back. I think we're in that same pattern when I do that drama triangle with couples. Skinner. We fell back into the old triangle. We recognized it. We've taken a time out and it was interesting. While we were in timeout, this is what we realized. We came back together, had a more effective, productive conversation. Man, when that happens, I just jump for joy because I see them doing what we've role played and talked about in my office.

Because you've just given them tools, real tools to figure this out, to work through this. And yes, that's so beautiful. Are you ready to shift and talk about this other side of this as well? I want to make sure I don't want to end our conversation today without talking about the difficulty of change, the difficulty of coming to my partner and saying, hey, I've changed. Whether it's the way I view the world, the way that our relationship's working, the choices that I'm making, my own values or my partner's values in this very vulnerable place. I think there is so much grief as well. We go into relationships with hopes and dreams and expectations, and things are great when a relationship's starting out. We don't have all the baggage, all the water under the bridge. And so as we get further into relationships, sometimes we have some grief that we really have to look at and deal with. And I have clients come and say, my partner's making choices that don't work for me. This is the hard part of the conversation. This is where my clients say, what do I do? I'm going to say, first of all, I don't have the answers of what my clients need to do. I'm going to help support them as they figure out for them what they need. But this is a question I hear over and over and that feels so helpless. I don't know what to do. But this isn't working.

And I think that personal awareness is that first step. I've come to the conclusion that I can't continue the way things are roller coaster. I can't do it, but we are doing the same pattern and I can't continue. But I want this relationship. Maybe I don't want this relationship. And so I see this yo yo effect in relationships. That's really what's happening there. Marianne when relationships ultimately end, it's because I've come to that awareness and as I present it, it's either rejected or I'm blamed or fault finding. And it brought to the point of high level of conflict. And at that point, the relationship, I've come to you with a broken heart, whether I've. I've tried to present it that way or not. And it was rejected. And that's where I see the relationships end. Because I've come from this place, I have to have this conversation. And maybe I didn't present it the best way, but I put it out there and it was rejected or sometimes brought back on me of, well, that's your fault. That's where I see couples really struggle because I've come with a desire to talk about important things and it's not accepted.

And even if a relationship doesn't end, because sometimes we're talking about the inevitable end of a relationship, I can't continue this way. Some things have to change. My partner's unwilling and so I can't continue in this relationship. Sometimes there's also another outcome that the relationship changes, even though it's maybe not a formal change. Esther Perel says that you can have four or five marriages with the same person. And I appreciate that. But I think that can be applied in a lot of different ways. I come to you and say, I really value our relationship, we're really great friends, but things aren't working out for us sexually. So for our kids and for, for whatever reasons, X, Y, Z, I'm willing to stay in the Relationship, but our marriage relationship might have to change. Our intimacy levels might have to change.

And what we're talking about here is, am I willing to really let it go if it comes to that point in this conversation, Am I ready to say I can no longer do this? That requires us to be in a place where I know myself well enough? The term that we've used, Dr. Murray Bowen, called it differentiation. Right. Am I able to differentiate myself and realize this is an absolute need and I can't be tied into your behavior or the chaos. If it's chaos or addiction or I can't be tied into anger, I can't do that part anymore. And it's a recognition. If I can't do it, that's, that's really on me. Throughout my career, I have had individuals get to the point in a relationship where they've realized, I can no longer, from a healthy perspective, I will lose me, my health, my well being. And those are hard cases, but I see them realize I can no longer be in this environment. It's hard to watch, but it's also a place of strength. When I see people realize it just doesn't work. So that concept that we're bringing up, what do you do when your spouse can't hear, won't hear, and are you willing to say, I'm going to put it out there with love and kindness and whatever happens, I'm going to live with the consequences.

Yeah. And this is where, as you know, I love talking about boundaries. This whole conversation is about boundary work. This is about saying, here are the things that I'm not okay with that aren't working for me. Here's me figuring out what my needs are and what my values are of how I need to live my life authentically and making healthy requests to my partner and saying, can you help me meet these needs? I want to continue this relationship with you if you are, you know, if you're able to. If not, then we may have to make some negotiations. I just think another facet of this conversation is I hear clients come and say, you know, I'm here for therapy. I'm here wanting to do my work. My partner's not willing to go to group. My partner's not willing to see a therapist. They're not willing to do anything for recovery. What do I do? I think that's the crux of what we're talking about, this place of figuring out what can I do when my partner isn't willing to do. Maybe the things that I feel like I need for Safety and for a healthy relationship here.

So can we role play that for a second?

Oh, yeah.

If we can do this for our listeners, hopefully it will be helpful. So I will be the person you come to me with, you wanting change, and I'll be resistant. And then we'll switch roles for just a second as we get ready to close date. We'll do both.

All right. For everybody listening and watching, I'm just pulling myself together here. So. Hey, Kevin, I have something that I need to talk to you about, and I'm wondering if you have a few minutes that we can sit down and have a conversation.

Yeah. Is it something big? I mean, I got a time frame. I got to get to work.

When would be a good time for you?

Well, we can do it after work.

Okay. What time will you be home?

Well, you know my schedule. It's all over the place. So somewhere between 6 and 7:30.

Okay. Between 6 and 7:30. Okay. I'll plan for that tonight. Does that work for you?

Yep. Okay, so what just happened is a starting point. We're going to have this conversation now. We're all both nervous throughout the day. Then what happens? Marianne, it's now 7:30.

Now 7:30. So, Kevin, text, where are you?

I just run a little bit late. I'll be home in about 30 minutes.

Oh. So now my emotions are starting to. I mean, they've already been rising. I've had a lot of anxiety, and now the pressure cooker is just clicking up.

Well, I stopped at the convenience store. Cause I was afraid to come home. Not telling you what's really going on, but that's what happened.

So are you coming home at 8?

Yeah, I'll be there at 8.

All right, so now you're walking in the door. I'm frustrated. What state are you in?

Well, I know we're going to be having a hard conversation. So it's probably more of a state of whatever happens, I don't care.

So either defensive or ready to check out, you're already closed. So from this entire conversation, the minute I brought it up, you've been closed.

Most likely. Or. Or like fearing, okay, she's done with the marriage, she's angry, whatever it may be. And here we go. We're going to be talking about this for the 348th time this month.

Yeah. And I'm in the state of. I was so vulnerable. That was so hard. I practiced this with my therapist. I talked to my support group, and I was gearing up for this hard conversation. And once again, I'm not important. This doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care. I don't even know why I'm in this relationship. Because here it is again. Here's the cycle just showed up.

And for me, it's. You're going to be, you know, complaining, you're going to be criticizing me. I'm never enough. I can never be enough. And so why. Why are we even in this marriage?

Okay, so you might come in the door and say, all right, what are you gonna talk about?

Yeah, what do you want? What do you want? Yep, there we go.

Yeah. So my part of the cycle might be like it. Well, you're really late. We gotta get the kids to bed now.

So I might be attacking, you know, my work schedule. I mean, it's unpredictable.

And I asked you specifically because I. I know your work's unpredictable, but I really need to have a conversation with you right now.

Yeah, right now. It's fine. Go ahead. I mean, you. I know this is important to you, so go.

You clearly don't seem like you're in a state to have a conversation with me.

Well, obviously this is important to you, so whatever you want to talk about, let's just do it. Let's get over with.

Yeah, this is what happens.

I assume you're going to be criticizing me again.

Yeah, this happens every time. I can't have a conversation when you're like that.

All right, so to our listeners, you guys probably never had this conversation. Right? Because you know where that's going to go? Victim, persecutor, role. Right. That. You know where that's going to go. Should we do it with an effective way, Marianne?

I think that'd be great. Yeah.

All right, take two.

All right, take two.

And we were. We were even soft on that one.

Yeah. You weren't throwing any arrows at me this time.

A little bit, but. Okay, so. So take two. You ask for a time where we can talk.

Yeah. Hey, Kevin, I have something really important that I need to talk to you about. And I'm wondering when would be convenient for you.

Well, I've got to get off to work right now. And I know this is probably important for you because you're asking for a specific time. So I should be off work between 6 and 7 tonight. Is that. Is that too late? Get the kids to bed. Maybe once we get the kids to bed.

So you get home at seven and then we get the kids to bed. And so then we're planning on about 8:30 having a conversation.

Yeah, yeah. As soon as we get the Kids to bed. I know. Again, this seems like it's important to you because normally when you set appointment, it's an important conversation.

Yeah, this is hard because I. I'm gonna be carrying it all day long. I've. I've been. It's been hard for me even just to come and ask you about that. But if that feels like that's the best time for you, I guess I'm willing to wait.

Well, the other option would be to do it during lunch. I mean, I could take a longer, extended lunch break. If you feel like that, that you.

Need more time, that'd be great.

Okay.

I can clear my schedule.

Is there anything specifically I should be prepared for?

Well, I need to talk to you about some patterns in our relationship that I'm having a really hard time with.

Okay. Well, if you want to do lunch, let's do it over lunch.

Okay, great.

All right, so now bring up a topic.

Lunch. Hello. Thank you for meeting me. I know this is unusual, and I know this is hard, but I really appreciate you meeting me earlier so I don't have to carry this all day long because this is hard. I am in a place where I'm really stuck. I feel frustrated and I feel confused. I know that you haven't been faithful to me, and I know that I've asked you to do some very specific things. You know, the groups I'm going to and my therapist. You know everything that I hear about recovery. What I'm hoping for is that you'll find a therapist. And I'm struggling with stepping over the line of saying, like, hey, you have to go get a therapist. I don't want to find one for you. I want you to get help and change. But I also know that that's up to you, and I can't force that. And so I'm struggling because I'm needing to have change in our relationship. I care about you. I care about our relationship, and I want to figure this out together with you, but I feel like you need some help.

So if I'm hearing what you're saying, you're healing your recovery, and you think I need to have a therapist and I need to do something different.

Yeah, I want our relationship to heal. My therapist has been talking about a formal, therapeutic disclosure, which is where you share your behavior. You share everything with me, and then I get to share with you how it's impacted me, and then there's some restitution. I don't understand it fully, but there's just some steps that I'm Hearing about. And right now, I don't feel close to you. I don't feel very connected. I don't know what's going on, and I just feel like we're growing further and further apart, and I don't know what to do about it. But everything I'm reading and seeing and hearing is saying that I can't be the only one changing here. Change has to come from you, too. And so, yeah, I don't know what to do.

So, to our listening audience, I'm gonna give two responses here. My first response, you know, I. I know you're doing all this stuff, but I. I'm not sure we really need this. Right. I'm not gonna do it again. Just need you to trust me. I'm done with that affair. I'm never gonna go back. I just wish you would just trust that I'm done now. Marianne, that's probably not gonna hit very well, right?

No. I'm just sinking inside. I'm just sinking and I'm closing up and just going like, okay. I was just vulnerable. I said, here's what I need. And he just. He's gaslighting me. He's telling me that I. That everything's fine, that everything that I'm feeling and wanting and needing is just not relevant. That's what I'm really, on a subconscious level, hearing.

So take one, right? So take two. Obviously, this is important to you, right? I know that you've been going to therapy, and I've been hesitant. The truth is I'm scared, right. I don't even understand how I got myself there in the first place. I don't know how I walked down that path. And so I can see your fears, and I can see that I have not done, you know, what your work is that you've been doing. So my truth is, I'm probably scared. I'm afraid. I don't know what that looks like. So I'm open to it and I'm scared.

So for our audience, I think, Dr. Skinner, what you're saying right there is. I'm also scared because if I don't know how to do this, and I don't know if I'm going to be successful, and if I step into this place, what happens if nothing changes? What happens if I can't change and what happens if I let you down? That's a huge fear right there, I think, that you're probably experiencing.

Yeah. So from a realistic perspective, speaking into that fear means I've done quite a bit of my own stuff. In the beginning. Right. To recognize I'm scared. I don't know if I can change or I don't know if I don't even know, understand the problem. I don't know how I got down that path.

And you might be scared to even put that on the table because I might weaponize that. I might use that against you at some point.

You could. Right. And so that's where two people. Can we keep this dialogue going? Right. So again, my therapist knows of other therapists. If you were to say something like that. Right. I think you need to take this responsibility. You need to take this on. And I believe in you, but I'm scared, too. I need change.

Oh. So that right there would be like, oh, thank you. I had no idea where you were. I'm scared, too. I'm scared that if we don't do something that we're going to end up ending our relationship. I'm terrified of that.

I'm terrified of that. That's not what you want, Right. And so that kind of vulnerability, that's the kind of conversation that we're saying. So again, I can respond. I could shut you down. I could dismiss your feelings. I could blame you, or I could be receptive. I could be vulnerable myself emotionally and say, I'm scared, or I don't know how to do this, or I might need some guidance. Again, our willingness to take that feedback, that's what we're trying to get across here to our listeners. There's better ways to do this, and we don't have to stay stuck in the old patterns, but we have to be open and receptive to learning and growth. And I think that's what we're really trying to get across here. In the stages of change, if you get stuck, if you don't know what to do, pause, reflect, do your own work. That's what we're trying to get across.

Yes. And because of the Zeigarnic effect, I know that I need to wrap this up. Even though we're role playing, I know that my clients might be like, but, Marianne, hold on a second. We didn't do any. We talked about the fear. And so I think this is also a place to ask for something. Thank you for sharing that with me, Kevin. Thanks for letting me know. What do we do from here? Is there anything that you're willing to do that I can rely on? Because right now it's just open and I'm vulnerable and there's no closure whatsoever. I don't even know what to do with this. Now.

So I think what I hear is, you want me to do something. You said your therapist maybe knew somebody. If you can give me that number, I will make the contact this week and I will move forward. Finding a therapist or talking with a therapist.

Okay. So just you being willing to do something lets my nervous system go.

Hmm.

Yeah.

And again, it's a willingness, but I really appreciate that. Closure there. Finishing the story. What have we agreed to? What is the goal? When are we going to do this?

This?

It's an openness of, like, I'm scared, but I can do that this week. I can commit to it. That kind of accountability begins to build trust. And you notice your nervous system going, right?

Yes.

This is the structure. This is how you take ownership. If you have offended, this is how you say, I want to be better. I want to fight for this relationship. And my alternative is I can become defensive, I can become critical. I can dismiss my own responsibility.

You can storm out, you can blame me, you can gaslight me.

And it's usually because of my shame. My own shame prevents me from being there with that. And that's why it's so critical that we deal with shame. And so, Marianne, I think this is a great conversation in terms of just understanding the stages of change. I hope this role play is effective for our listeners. So my hope is that it's meaningful to you guys.

As we wrap up with this, my takeaway for today is, as we go through change, we need supports. If I'm coming to my partner and saying, here's some things I need to have a hard conversation, here's some things that I need, I need somebody else that I can turn to afterwards. We all need supports, but especially when we're using boundary work, when we're making requests, we need other people that can hold us and give us the support when we are most vulnerable. So for our listeners and viewers, thank you for joining us. We hope this has been helpful, and we're so glad that you're here. Thank you.

And my final thoughts to our listeners. If you haven't yet signed up, we have on human intimacy.com we have a free Human Intimacy podcast course. And what I've done is I've started creating assignments, worksheets, just something to take every podcast. We started in the 80s, and this is podcast number 89. So after today, if you want a worksheet of how to do what we've talked about, you can go to Human intimacy dot com. Look at the free course Human Intimacy Podcast, and it's the companion course and you can download the show notes, you can download a worksheet to practice what we've talked about today.

So that's, that's humanentipacy.com Click on Free.

The Be under Free Courses. So courses, free courses. And it's the Human Intimacy podcast companion course. And then the other thing we want to mention is we just released the Rise, Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal podcast, just literally released this week if you haven't been to Reclaim. It's about helping individuals who are stuck in pornography.

Yeah. And both of these, you can go to human intimacy.com and find the courses. We've got online courses for those as well. So we've got a podcast for both of those and a course for both of those as well.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Trying to provide as much resource to you, our listeners, as possible. So thank you for being with us, Marianne. Thank you for your time. And remember, love is a choice. Make it every day.

Awesome. Thank you all. Bye.