When Your Partner Won’t Engage: Breaking the Cycle of Disconnection (Part 2) (Episode #71)

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Hello and welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. I'm Marianne Michaels here with Dr. Kevin Skinner and we are so glad to have you joining us both on YouTube and on audio. And today we are picking up where we left off in our last podcast. Our last podcast we were talking about some of the communication that happens between us and our emotions and how to repair and how to notice where we're at in like what our state is when we are trying to communicate. Those are some of the overall things we were talking about in our last podcast. And so we're picking up today, jumping right back in.

Let's start off. Marianne. We were, as we ended last time, we were in the middle of a fight in this coupleship, right? They were in a fight and one of them is asking for a timeout.

So Dr. Scanny, you were talking about one of us might be like in this hurricane place, you were talking about some climates, how we might be really reactive, really hurt. The one partner is saying, hey, hold on a second, I want to respond to you, but I'm not in a great place because I'm hitting shame, I'm hitting fear. My rejection stuff are kicking in and so I can't give you a good answer or response. I can't show up. Well right now.

Yeah. And that, that part, what you just said, most people skip that part and say, look, I don't want to talk about this right now. So what you just said is we can't skip over that part either is the awareness to say both partners, if either one of us are triggered, calling a timeout is a positive thing to do. Yeah, we set a parameter, a time parameter. Hey, can I take 20 minutes? Can we talk about this tonight when I get back? Or can we do this after lunch? Right. So we are setting a time parameter, which many couples don't do, and it leaves the person who was pursuing the conversation feeling like, oh, here we go again. You're just ignoring me. You don't want to talk about issues.

Oh, I'm so glad you said that, because it might be. No, I'm ready right now. I'm invested. I have time, and I don't want to talk about it. After a kid's soccer game, then I need to do laundry. I need to get ready for tomorrow, and I don't want to come here again. And that's. That's a normal reaction.

And so we have somebody who's pursuing the conversation, somebody who's distancing from the conversation. What do you do? Well, if you're in an emotional state of mind where you're flooded again, generally speaking, a hundred heartbeats per minute or more, that generally is the concept of being flooded. So if we're there and we're escalated, our tone of voice, our body language, everything is going to be usually more intense.

All right, so slow that down for just a second. How do I know if my heart beats above 100?

You're gonna feel it in your body. If you're paying close attention, your pitch of your voice will be typically higher, angrier. It will also be you if you attune to your body. In fact, I've had people do this. I actually, in my office, I'll have them. If they have some kind of a watch that tracks their heart rate, I'll say, okay, just real quick, what is it? I had this experience the other day where there was a lot of intensity in a session I was dealing with, and I actually looked at my own.

Hmm.

Just to see where my heart rate was during this conversation. Because I'm trying to be attuned to them, and I'm actually trying to help them to regulate, and that's a really hard space. Regulation is how we have effective communication. And when we can't regulate, our communication of our body's disposition is either going to be fight or flight.

So what do you mean when you say regulate?

So three or four things. When I regulate, that's what I'm doing. Trying to get my heart rate back down so I can communicate more effectively. So from a physiological perspective, I'm going to take a time out so I can get my emotions in check and also have the awareness of what I'm actually feeling. So when couples get to the point where they are elevated. Oh, here you go again. That in and of itself is a hurtful communication. Oh, here you go again. In contrast with what we were saying in the last episode is being able to take a time out and step.

Back and right there, just that comment itself. Here you go again. Just like that. Can drive a heartbeat right up. Oh, yeah. So my partner just said, here you go again. And now I've got this flood of emotions and it might mean, oh, we're never getting there and they're in a defensive place or whatever. It means I might have a physiological reaction just because of something my partner says instantly.

And so I'm triggered. Here you go again. I'm already triggered. That's probably going to trigger you too.

Yeah.

So if I have that kind of awareness, like, look, where we're headed isn't going to be very effective right now. Would it be okay if we took a 15 minute, 30 minute timeout, which we've pre agreed to. In other words, we both can take a time out as long as we do a couple of things. We have a time frame and we don't go get bigger emotional guns.

Okay, so hold on. You're saying this is like house rules. We have a pre agreed upon when we're in. When either of us get to this place in our coupleship, we have a pre arranged pre agreed upon if I need to take a time out for us to be effective. If either of us do, then we will and we'll come back.

Yes, that's right. The reason why is because when you're in a calmer state, you can make agreements if you're willing to agree to them and live by them in that difficult situation. Now, earlier you gave a scenario where I don't want to do it after this alchemy because I'm here right now with the energy. If your spouse is not in a space where they're going to be effective, you're going to get hurt by their inability to respond. Well, fine, if you want to. Now I'm defensive already because my position is I'm not ready for this conversation. The point is, if you're not ready for a conversation, you probably need to give each other a timeout for the benefit of your relationship.

And I can see how frustrating that is because I might want to say, no, you're here right now. We're doing this right now.

Buck up. Let's go, buddy.

Yeah, like I want to get this resolved. I Want to. This is a conflict. It's on the table. I might have to really recognize, once again, that word regulated. I don't know that it means this, but in my mind, it's kind of like, let me get back to regular. Let me get back to my normal. Because right now, if I'm so frustrated and so focused on getting this on the table, I'm not going to be able to hear you.

So here's another part of this. If how I do that timeout and how I ask for it, I can actually be effective, or I could be very ineffective. I'll give you both responses. Look, look, I'm going to tell you right here and now, if you want to talk with me, I'm not going to be able to solve this, so you better back off.

Sorry, that would not be. I'm not role playing very well here. You did that so well, Dr. Skinner. Yeah, okay, I've seen that.

I've seen that a few times in my career. Right.

Yeah.

Contrast that with. Look, I know this is an important topic to you, and I know it'd be nice. Right now I'm feeling inside incapable. And I care about you and our relationship. If I could have a few minutes, if you give me the afternoon to think about this, I'm going to be way more effective. Because this is important. I want to be there for you, and I really do. Could you give me a few hours to just really contemplate what's happening inside of me when you say that? I really want to be there.

I want to just observe. Dr. Skinner, partway through that, I noticed you took a big breath. And I think as you do that, just as we begin, I really want to be here. Like, taking those deep breaths in that moment help us to regulate. They help signal our body. Hey, I'm not under attack. But even halfway through, I heard and noticed that breath. And we need to recognize. I got to breathe here. I got to take a pause. I got to take a breath. I got to slow things down. And you did that so well.

And my hope is that besides the breath, that the communication is validation. Right? I want to do this. I want to do it right. I'm not in a space. And if we both can honor that, we've got a timeframe. Give me a few hours. And the research shows that when we're flooded, it takes at least 20 minutes to regulate. So be in an emotional state where I'm not in fight or flight response. That's really what regulation means, is I'm not in fight or flight response. I'm more likely to be able to access the prefrontal cortex of my brain where I'm able to have more processing going on so I can be a part of an effective communication.

Okay, I'm going to bring this back to our previous podcast where we were talking about in tricky situations where we might freeze, 80% of us do, 10% mess it up, 10%, you know, are effective. If I'm in this space, you said that so well. But if I'm in that space, I'm probably not going to have those great Dr. Skinner words. I'm probably not going to have, oh, I can take a breath, but I'm not going to maybe have all those words because I'm frozen. My brain doesn't know how to do this. And all I know is I've got all this stuff going on inside of me. And so if that's the case for our listeners or those who are viewing this, I think it's important to also be able to say what is a phrase that I can use that's simple, that maybe it's once again something pre agreed upon with my partner, that when I say I need to take a break, that my partner knows if I say I need to take a break, it means I'm coming back. It's a 20 minute break. It's something that we've pre established because I might not have those words in.

That moment, which really is I need to do the evaluation and prepare for those moments because we know we're going to have them. So those were my words. What are your words? Do the work, do the evaluation and find your words of how to deal with those moments in an effective way, with kindness, with caring. Because the concept, the words don't matter. It's the principle, right? I do care. I want to solve this. You matter. Right? Every one of those things are concepts that show validation, caring, commitment. My tone of voice matters, my body language matters. So all of those things come into the equation here. So many times people say, can I just say what you said? And I said, no, you're missing the whole point. It's not my words, it's what I'm trying to get across that I care. You matter value. And that's where I see us breaking down. Because you can give a rote response. It needs to be from your heart.

It does. And once again, when we freeze in those moments, because one of the things that's been helpful for some of my clients, we've said write it down on an index card and Put it in your back pocket, carry it around with you. Because in that moment, I've had clients say, I don't have any words. I practice this. I planned this. I just don't have it. And so whether you take a picture of it or it's on your phone, or whether it's in your back pocket or you've got it somewhere, but being able to say, yeah, I. I just did some pre work just because this might come up, and here's what I need to say in a way that I. Here's my words that I want to say. Yeah.

And there's that frozen state. Right. I'm frozen. I don't know what to do. Well, I don't be. If you're afraid to bring out a piece of paper, even that communication of. Look, I. I've thought about this, and this is. This is how I do these moments, because I want to get it right again. That's where couples like. It's like training wills. Maybe that's the best way to say it. It's like I'm practicing. I'm doing the best I can because I want to solve this with you. I want to. And so I might need my training wills. Here's. Here's what my words. Well, great. That means you're trying. So if you're the person who's communicating with the person with a piece of paper, be patient with them, because it's their effort to show that they're trying to.

And let me add with that, I think it's important to. If we're taking that break, to use the words, it can be so threatening. We use the word triggering a lot. It can be triggering or threatening. When our partner says, I need a break, I need to step away. It can feel like an abandonment. And if we've had abandonment in our past, in our history, oh, that feels like the worst thing ever. And so I might want to fight. No, no, no, no, no. Stay here. No, we can't. Because I feel like you're abandoning me. If you go away from this, or our pattern might have been in the past, we never, ever resolve anything. So I don't want you to walk away, because it just means it won't ever get resolved. And so being able to use the words, I'm not leaving this, I'm not leaving you, and I'm coming back to it. If we can use those words, our partner can go, okay, okay. And this is a great way to build trust. If I'm trying to build trust with my partner, I come back I do what I say that I was going to do, and I show up again.

And I reengage, and that's preparation. It requires preparation. Again, I've said this over and over during this podcast for the last year plus time. If we aren't prepared at difficult emotional moments, we're not going to succeed because our emotions naturally go to fight or flight response. We're inviting you, as a couple, to speak from your prefrontal cortex, which allows you to think through things, evaluate consequences, evaluate your own emotions because you're more in tune with yourself. That's what we're inviting you to do, and that's something that every one of us has to practice. I have the problem, Mary, and I'm going to assume you do as well, that we can easily get hijacked or flooded ourselves.

Yes, but, Dr. Skinner, you didn't say the words, proper preparation prevents a pound of pain.

I was waiting for you to do it for me. So, yes, proper preparation prevents a pound of pain.

That's what we're talking about.

All right, so now let's take it to the next step.

Okay, so now we're.

We're apart.

Okay.

What do you do while you're apart? I'm going to tell you what most of my clients do in the beginning. Before I get a chance to interrupt the pattern, they go get the bigger gun. I should have said this. Should have said that. Well, man, they did this. Oh, they're just. And I might even add people into it. I might call up a friend, hey, did you know my. Right. And so I might invite other people into this conflict because I'm so upset.

Is that bigger gun maybe a. A space where we're just needing to err and validate where we're at, where we're trying to verbally process what's going on and make sense of it, and we need to say it out loud and. But, yeah, I mean, that bigger gun. That's an interesting concept. Why do we do that?

I have my theories. I don't think one of them's right. I think there's probably many potential theories, but one of my primary ones is I need validation that I'm right and my partner's wrong.

Yeah. Because I'm trying to make sense of my reality and my perception, and this is how I've seen it out and build up my ammunition to prove my.

And so I can go talk with other people and say, can you believe this? And they'll go, oh, wow. Wow, your spouse is off. Right. And so now I've built a team. Boy, that is sure destructive to the relationship because now I'm turning other people against my spouse as well. And again, I understand that we need someone to vent with, but that person needs to be neutral and not, oh, boy, I couldn't stay in your marriage. Yeah.

And this is where I believe that sponsors and support groups can be really healthy. They can be really helpful. It's not my friend. It's not my family member. It's not the person I'm going to a barbecue with next week. And so I might be in a better place, but my friend now might be like, oh, he's such a jerk. Holy cow. And carrying that because they saw that. And so having what you said, that neutral party, I think can be really. This is a really important part of. Can I turn to somebody who doesn't have any emotional skin in this game, who doesn't have sides, and who has their prefrontal cortex in a logical online. Online. And they can hear it and be like, marianne, you're kind of being a dork there. Like, slow it down. And did you hear what you said? It sounds like you got some surrendering to do. It sounds like you need to slow this down and think this through, because sometimes we need somebody to give it to us straight and help us understand. You got some stinking thinking going on there.

And even then, we might not agree with him because they hurt me. Can't you see? So I think really important here is, is we have to have that person who is neutral. And that's a whole different concept of how we find people who can be that for us. Because if everything we're getting from the people we're sharing with is, oh, what a jerk, or, you know, just. I mean, I can't believe you're still married. If that's what we're getting, Marianne, then outside people are influencing and we're influencing them. And we get in this vicious cycle that can be very hurtful and painful.

That we need to make sure that we're picking people who have our best interest. I'll say that again. We need to pick people to be our support. People who have our best interest and maybe who have a long view versus.

If we're going to reach out and get other people involved. The other part of that is the work I do when I'm alone. So I think it's. I have a whole formula for this. Marianne.

Sorry. Before we move on, I want to add one more part that I think is super important right here for me. I know that I'M a verbal processor, and for me, I need to say things out loud. I do usually need somebody that I can even just say, I need to say some words to you. I need to get this out. Say the words. I've got to honor the emotions that are going on inside of me, which means I need to say I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling frustrated, I'm feeling unheard of. All my anger needs to be moved out so that I can get to the pain that's underneath. I can't get underneath until I get that out. And so I've got to find places, and that might be through writing. And I know we're going to talk about that, some of that in a minute, but sometimes for me, it's got to come out verbally. The energy got to come out. The emotions need to be.

Yes, that's exactly where I'm headed. Right. You're saying I may need to speak with somebody or I might need to just say it out loud and hear myself say it. Yep. And that's where I think the journaling comes in, in the self awareness. Because now I want to get the recognition of what's just happening here. Like, why am I responding this way to what happened? See, because that. That question all by itself begs the question, what am I. Why is this so intense? What's it triggering inside of me? That is self awareness. That is a mature way to analyze yourself. What's happening here? A curiosity and interest. And that's where I see so many times people aren't able to do that. And so I'm getting a bigger gun instead. I need to be reflecting personal insight. I. Man, I can't believe how triggered that was. I was so triggered by that. Now I'm curious about the trigger. Well, wow. Why did that. Why did I respond that way?

I'm so glad you said reflective right there, because I was like, this is where we reflective listen ourselves. For Marianne, you sure came out that. That was so triggering for you. You had. Wow. What? Oh, hold on a second. I hit shame. My cheeks get red, my neck gets scarlet, my stomach drops, and my head starts to spin. Holy cow. I hit shame. What was I. What was I feeling? Shame about what? And then I can really walk myself through that, but, boy, I really have to like that reflective listening what's going on inside of me. And when we do that, it's almost like we're stepping away from ourselves and we're looking back, and we're looking, going like, whoa, did you just see that? Watching ourselves like, A movie. And then we can really slow down and start making sense.

And if you do that part right, you're going to be way more aware. You're going to understand your thoughts, your feelings, and that's what you ultimately want to be able to communicate with your spouse or part.

Yeah.

And boy, when that happened, I was so triggered. Wow. That that trigger, boy. And all of a sudden my emotions were taken off and I was feeling the hurt. And when I really think about reminds me of something that happened earlier in our marriage when I felt like you didn't care. And when you said that, it hit home with me and I'm like, oh, there's more evidence that they don't care. And I don't know if that's what you were trying to communicate, but boy, that's what I just came up with me in my reflection.

Another way you can add on to that, you didn't say these words, but you were doing it. Dr. Skinner is looking at it through parts. We add on this part language. There's a part of me that really reacted. I really had this big reaction that brings in a lot of self compassion. If I can be compassionate towards myself. Wow. I had a really big reaction to that. There was a part of me that really hurt so bad. And that part of me just wanted to fight. And that part of me, oh, I can trace. And so a tool for me is to say, where have I felt this before? And I'll close my eyes and I'll go, here's what the sensation is. Where have I felt this before in my life? And then I can trace back. Oh, yeah, earlier in our marriage, I felt that for me, I'll even take it a step further than that and I'll say is, what am I telling myself? What's the story I'm telling myself about this?

Yeah.

And is it true? Because most of the time the story that I'm telling myself may or may not be true. And it probably ties into something. And if I can take kind of that third person standing back looking through parts, I can usually find the lie that I've told myself or the perception that maybe. Maybe a little bit faulty. No, he's not my enemy. No, it wasn't this. But yeah, it felt like that. And so I reacted this way. And then I can be a lot kinder and show up and say, a part of me reacted when you said that and this is why.

Yeah. And when that happens in a relationship, I'm not attacking you. I'm acknowledging where I was at, what I was feeling and what I was thinking. That that's a very important distinction here because more often than not, it's our response to rather than our self awareness when we communicate our self awareness. I was feeling, I was experiencing so much more effective communication, so much better. Now, the next step in this is the most difficult one. It's to ask the question, I wonder what my spouse was thinking.

So you're saying this is something you do in this timeout space.

If you can do this part of it, not from a defensive or angry position, you are now leaning into more of an empathic approach to this whole experience together. So if you've gone through your own work and now you turn and say, I wonder what they were experiencing, what they were going through, what were they feeling. Try to imagine yourself in their shoes, which again, this is I often. This is a concept I teach in my intensive. So you guys are getting a lot in this podcast, right? I teach this concept in my intensive because it's where we lean into a place of empathy. Then I'm not going to come with my guns a blazing. I'm going to come from a soft space. I'm going to come from a space where I'm intentionally trying to understand you. And that's something that does not happen in the heat of a battle. It's way more effective. So, yes, we're trying to increase the level of understanding of our spouse in that situation. Empathy.

I have something I want to add to that. I just read this today. It's in a book on moral righteousness. I just started it, but I pulled out this quote. It's from somebody named True L. It's talking about children learning what's right and what's wrong and how they do that. It says most morally advanced kids, according to some research, were those who had frequent opportunities for role taking, for putting themselves into another person's shoes and looking at a problem from that person's perspective. Relationships such as peers invite role taking, but hierarchical relationships such as with teachers and parents, do not. It's really hard for a child to see things from the teacher's point of view because a child has never been a teacher. And I think that really applies with what we're talking about. It's really hard to get to understand our partner if we can't take a moment to say, let me try and put myself in their shoes and see what they were experiencing. From my tone, from my language, from how I showed up, from my body language.

When I have done this, when there has been betrayal, I'VE had some people say, I don't want to feel what they're feeling. I don't care. Yeah, Sometimes I think that's the honest response. I, at this moment, I can't. I don't care. I want them to understand me first is really what they're saying. I want to feel validated in my pain. I want them to understand my pain. And so I understand that pushback. It makes tons of sense to me as we go through the process. If both partners can get to that point during a timeout where they're reflecting on what their spouse is experiencing, the conversation, I may come up with nothing. I'm like, I don't understand what they're thinking. Great. Then when you get back together, which is the next step, I'll share. Here's some of the things that I learned while I was doing some self reflection. While I was exploring myself, I started thinking about what you were going through and I hit a wall. So could you share with me what your experience was in that interaction? Even there, I send a message. I was trying to think about what you are experiencing. This is so effective when it's done right. Marianne.

So here's the tricky part. I'll often have clients who want their partner to suffer. They want them to feel the pain. You hurt me so badly. I need you to feel just as miserable. I need you to feel. I need you to know my pain. And once you've hit this level where you felt it, then maybe I can let up. Then maybe I'll feel like validated in that. Here's the lie or the myth. They will never feel your pain. They won't because it's yours. Because you own it. If you have your hand slammed in a car door and I have my hand slammed in a car door, I don't feel your pain. I can relate to it, but I know what it feels like for me. And no matter how much you want to tell me it hurts, if I haven't slammed my hand in a car door, I don't know what that feels like. And so I need to figure out, how can I be with you? Hold your pain in my hands, hold your tears and all of your pain and sit with you in it. Because I can't take it away. I can't feel it for you. I can't pay for it. There's nothing I can do to extract your pain or to apply it to myself. It feels really futile and it feels futile for both parties. I want to fix your pain and you want me to feel the pain that I've caused you, and we both get stuck there because we can't transfer the pain. But we have to figure out how to meet with the pain that I have experienced in my life. Have I been betrayed in my life? Maybe I need to start thinking about that and trying to understand what it might feel like or trying to say, if I were in your shoes, what would that have been like for me?

So that's it right there. What would it be like being my spouse in this situation, in this conflict with me? These are the types of questions that go a long ways. Notice the self reflection, self awareness. This is higher cognitive reasoning, cognitive processing. That's the gift of our prefrontal cortex, Marianne.

But we can't use it if we're triggered. I want to make sure before we step, before we go any further, I want to backtrack just a little bit, because to get our prefrontal cortex online, it's not really online when we're in fight or flight. So if we're taking that step away and we're trying to be introspective, need some tools, we might need some music, we might need to go do some movement, we might need a walk, we might need some bilateral stimulation, we might need a punching bag, we might need some sense, some aromatherapy. We gotta think about our senses and figure out, how do I get back to the present regulation. We've gotta pull in our senses and ground ourselves so that we can get that prefrontal cortex back online so we can do this work. Because once again, we might not have a template for it, and we might be in that frozen space. So we've got to slowly come back and go, how do I get myself back into a space where I'm thinking clearly and objectively and I can do this work?

And that's why we talk about going into a timeout. Because again, if you're trying to do that on the fly with your partner or spouse when you're agitated, the probability of success is just so, so minuscule. But if I go do that work in advance, coming to this communication to have that conversation, way more effective. Yeah, but that's the work that's required if you're going to succeed, folks. That's what I'm trying to say.

So I think if we were to sum that up, what you're saying is proper preparation, that's the amount of pain. I wasn't going to go there. It just came out. What I was going to say is, this is work of self awareness. It's work. If I'm not aware of what's going on with myself, if I'm not regulating my emotions and understanding and questioning what's going on for me and being able to be vulnerable with it, I've gotta be aware.

So when we do intensives, this is what I role play with couples over and over. So I'll give them the education that we've just been through in the last two episodes and then we'll role play, we'll go into situations. What do I say here? How do I do this? Because again, I don't believe that our natural instincts are to do it this way. And I believe that we want to, but we don't know how to. And so really practicing this is a healthy communication is an art. It's practiced. It's not natural. It takes practice over time. And if you think otherwise, I'm telling you, you just need to prepare. And that's, that's really one of the core messages I hope we're getting across.

I have so many clients who will say, I was doing that. And then my partner said, don't therapize me, stop trying to talk like a therapist. And that's a pretty normal reaction because like you said, it's not natural. But these are tools that can help you get through that you probably didn't learn when you were growing up. Because we, we're not, they're not innate, they're not born. We've got to learn them and we've got to practice them. And they're like muscles and they do feel awkward.

So let's go to this final step for today.

Okay.

Now we're back together. We've taken the time out, we've done that self reflection. We've tried to fill our partner experience in that exchange. First one person's going to go, they're going to start off by, hey, here's what I recognize was happening inside of me. Now notice this, what was happening inside of me as we were trying to communicate, they would then would share what they're experiencing. And then the next part of that is, and I was wondering if I were you, what it would be like. And I was wondering if you were feeling or thinking, am I close or am I not close?

I love that, that like here's what I thought was happening for you. Was this your experience? That is so beautiful because it's gold because it tells my partner, I'm trying, trying to understand you. I'm trying to understand what it felt like for you. And if I ask that my partner's gonna say, yeah, and they're gonna go deeper and say, yes, yes, it was. And they usually add onto that. Or they'll say, no, it wasn't. It was xyz. And so that question is so powerful because it opens a door for our partner to explain.

And I can also see it going the other way. No, look, I know you tried, but you're wrong. Now. I'm not. Now I'm already not in this space because now I just said no. So I need to validate their effort. You know, thanks for trying to understand what I was experiencing. It was actually this. Now just notice that difference in those two responses.

So that first response, you're still defensive.

Yeah.

You're still pretty. And that might be where we say, hold on a second. That might be a reflective listening place. Then, oh, wow, you're still really upset about this, I can see. Or that you're feeling. That felt like it didn't hit home for you, and there's still a lot of emotions there. Help me understand that.

Yes. And then the next part of this is then once we feel like one person's done and the other person goes and does the same thing, I was experiencing this. I wonder what you were feeling, what you were thinking. And this is what I came up with.

Let me ask Dr. Spinners, you're sharing. That is, are you sharing that as. We're just taking turns, and we're not commenting, we're not responding, we're just taking turns.

We're just taking turns initially, because I want to understand first. So once one partner gets done, then, okay, are we good? That's what you were experiencing. And now I understand what you were feeling based on what you said. And now you're coming with what you came up with during your reflective time.

Can I ask. Cause I know you're talking about. You do this in your intensives. Do you have that partner after? So if I were to hear you, rather than just jumping into, here's where I'm at, would you have me say, okay, here's what I heard you say. Did I get that right? Do you have that?

So now with reflective listening, with a validation of making sure that I understood right, what you were saying is when I did that, it triggered a belief in you that made you feel like you were unlovable. It goes clear back to when we had this experience earlier in our marriage. Is that right? Okay. And, boy, I feel so bad about that experience. I look back on it and think, I sure wasn't available to you. Now we're finishing a story that hasn't been finished maybe for 20 or 30 years.

Yeah. And that might be a place where you might deepen that as well and say, what do we need to resolve about that? Because obviously it's a wound wound that hasn't healed. It's one of the lumps under the blanket that now we can start to heal and resolve and be aware of because that got triggered in our earlier conversation. And so it needs to be resolved. That's beautiful.

And this process, I mean, we're breaking it down more than I've ever broke it down. Not in a therapeutic setting.

Yeah.

So we're not done quite yet because now that both partners have shared it, now it's a time to step back as observers and look at what just happened. So now the reflection is what just happened between us. How are we feeling? Because now we want to make sure that the Zeigarnic effect, that the issue is finished. Because if the issue is finished, we both are going to feel like, wow, that was really good. I mean, I felt heard, I felt validated. And I hope you felt the same way.

Yeah. And as you too, that I want to. There's a hesitancy for me to that I'm questioning saying I want to ask is there more? And I'm all about asking, is there more? Because are we going to go down a whole nother rabbit hole there? What are your thoughts on that?

So for now, the conversation is there may be more, but we can go through the process that we just went through that was successful. Because for me, if you start going into other areas because we just did it right, then we might not be in an emotional space completely where we can we have the energy to go into another conversation. So, yes, I think this issue. I think we do. Are there other ones? Absolutely. But this was an effective process. Let's duplicate it. Let's replicate it. But if you into another area you might like, well, let's go back to the drawing board and let's go on to this new issue. Let's identify what the concern is and let's rinse and repeat this process.

And so I think that might be really helpful to say, yes, we've identified some others and let's schedule some time to come back and talk about them. But let's close this one up because I want to just make sure we're resolved with everything with this one. Is there anything else we need to resolve here? And now we've gone from this hurricane that we were talking about earlier. We've Done a lot of introspection in ourselves. We've come back in a soft place and hopefully at least been able to hear each other. It doesn't mean that even though my partner says, here's where I'm. I'm at, doesn't mean that all my pain's necessarily gone. Hopefully I can hear them. I might still have a lot of work to do. Say, wow, you know, that might have been something that feels unforgivable, and I might have to be working on forgiveness for this for several months. It doesn't mean it's like, I just want to make sure we're not tying this up in a beautiful bow. And here you go. Because there's some reality. This is the. The conversation. But we might have to say, we're going to need to come back to this for sure.

But I look forward to it because we did it right.

Yeah.

See, we're so afraid of these difficult conversations. But when we get it right, we should be celebrating it. I mean, let's get out the balloons and say, wow, we did it. Let's celebrate something good. We are so focused on the junk in our lives that we don't stop and take stock of what's positive.

And that'd be a really good place to acknowledge and say thank you for our partner. I just want to make sure we're touching on this. Think outcome wise, we can have a beautiful outcome and be so grateful that our partner was willing to do this work. We can also have that outcome where it feels like there's still more and we can walk away still feeling like, yeah, it's not quite as great as Dr. Skinner and Marianne talked about it being.

Recognizing the effort, the appreciation, the approach, if done consistently. I guarantee you the more you practice, the more you implement the principles we've talked about, you will be more effective, and you will do it in a way that helps your relationship and you won't feel so hopeless or helpless.

And this is. You talked earlier about the training wheels on the bike and this whole. These are principles that we practice, that we learn. And as you said earlier, these are hard. These are hard for everybody because in our relationships, we get emotional and we have reactions and our body wants to bite or run away or defend ourselves. And we. We don't always understand each other and we do tread on each other's toes, but it is learning how to repair and how. And I just want to add in here, if we do it right, there's usually this really beautiful space of we can walk away with a lot Deeper connection, a lot deeper trust. This is a trust building activity. And also, like, oh, I have more hope. I've got some hope that, oh, we did that. Okay. And so there's hope we can get through hard things in the future because we're learning how to do this. So it's okay if you don't get it right.

Oh, for moving forward the way you've been doing it probably hasn't been working. What we're offering is an alternative. Now, again, if you want more, I've written an assessment called test your relationship that really evaluates how couples communicate. And also the course how to communicate when you don't know what to say. I've bundled them together. We ought to probably put your boundaries and communication course on there as well. We ought to bundle it up, Marianne, and let couples work on these and learn about these things in a bundled package.

That'd be fantastic. So for our listeners or viewers, you can access all of this plus more@HumanIntimacy.com this is Dr. Skinner's legacy. This is a place where, you know, our goal is to help as many people as possible. And especially therapy's hard to get into. And for less than the price of a therapy session, you can access most of these courses and get phenomenal tools that you would spend a lot of time and money trying to work through in session. Ideally for my clients, I invite them to take these courses and then bring the work into session. And so it deepens what we're doing in therapy and just accelerates their progress.

And it reinforces concepts or principles that we've talked about during the podcast. So. Absolutely. So again, to our listeners, human intimacy.com you can find test your relationship, the Marianne boundaries, also, how to communicate when you don't know what to say. And Marianne's communication course, again, those are, you know, we'll put them in a bundle. You'll be able to see it, but if you want more information about it. Questionsumanintimacy.com awesome.

Thank you all for joining us today. Dr. Skinner, this has been such a lovely conversation and I think really needed. So thank you all for joining us and we'll see you next time.

Thanks, everybody.