When Your Partner Won’t Engage (Part 1): Breaking the Cycle of DisconnectionJ (Episode #70)

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Help but smile when you smile and.

Laugh when you laugh, something's around. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner. Marianne, it's good to see you today.

Oh, it's so good to be here today, Dr. Skinner.

You know, we've been talking a lot about some difficult topics and today one of the first times that we're simulcasting. So you're gonna be able to listen to it and watch it on YouTube for our listeners at home or on whatever podcast you're using. So we're excited to announce that we're gonna now be doing this live so you can see us. Well, I guess we're doing it live, but you can see us on YouTube. I'm excited.

This is really exciting and a little bit nervous. I can't like hide behind the camera, so here we go.

So now you're gonna see us and apologize in advance. This is the best that you can get from me. Anyway, excited to have you with us. So we're gonna be talk do when your partner isn't engaging and that might be emotionally engaging with you, or when your partner won't get into the healing or the recovery process. What are your initial thoughts on that, Marianne?

You know, I have a really great example. Somebody came to me with this this week. Now, this isn't necessarily regarding or addiction, but I think it applies just in a really general sense. I had somebody come to me who's in a relationship and at the beginning of the relationship when they first met, apparently they were a little bit awkward and the person has reminded them several times like you're really awkward. And some of their recent interactions, there was a little bit of maybe criticism like, hey, you didn't do that the way that I thought you did. And this person shared with me then that they. They had some things coming up and they said, I don't communicate very well. And their partner saying, well, why don't you trust me? You should trust me. Why aren't you coming to me and telling me these things? And what we had to really walk back and work through is that this person felt really insecure in coming to their partner because of the previous. Some of the comments, the previous lack of safety, and they felt really insecure. If I come to you and I'm awkward or I don't communicate well, are you going to judge and criticize me? So it creates this pattern of I don't feel safe, and then the partner's upset because, why aren't you coming to me? I want you to share with me. And so there's a lot of dynamics that get caught in just our communications, just these interpersonal communications of where we are, where we're not, and the levels of trust. So I think the first place that I come to is we've got to look at the trust. And then if we shift to the betrayed relationship, that trust has been completely broken and we're starting at that ground zero.

Yeah. So for me, what I hear there is, in the past, an event occurred. And what I learned is, okay, I probably shouldn't share because I don't feel safe.

Yeah.

And because I don't feel safe, maybe I'm not even going to try again because I tried that and it did not work.

Yeah.

And so unresolved issues. This is what we often refer to as the Zeigarnic effect. Here it comes. Where we haven't resolved the issue, and so we spend more time necessarily thinking about it. But it also influences. I don't even know if I want to try to communicate with you on this level because it doesn't feel safe to me.

Right. And if we're talking about intimacy, this is a huge barrier. If I can't turn to you and say, here's where I'm at, even if I'm awkward, even if I'm stumbling about it, even if I just get. Least when I was a kid getting school, we get E for effort meant like, good job, you tried a little bit. You didn't do that. Great, but you tried. And so even if we're trying, usually our partner, if it's safe, if we're just like, I don't know how to say this, I don't have the words, but I'm Going to try. Usually our partner can be there with us to say, okay, I. I can. I can give you that e for effort. I can really accept and see that you're trying. I should say it's that barrier that when we don't feel safe, we do have that barrier. And it really makes it so we can't get to that vulnerable place. And all of our intimacy is based on, can I let you in? Can you see?

And. And when we've had. I'm going to just call it any negative experience or experience where the emotions might have been shared and it didn't work out. Well, when that happens, then my memory is. I'm. I'm scared to do that and often hold back. And then the partner's like, why aren't you coming to me? As you said earlier, and as you say, they're doing this dance, and I'm finding that many couples, they don't know how to repair that. And so for not months, but many years, they're still doing this dance. It's like, well, they just don't share their emotions. Well, there might be an experience previous in this interaction between you guys that they didn't feel safe. And so as a result, either direction, we get caught in that loop. And many couples haven't figured out how to resolve it. And sometimes they haven't been able to understand even where it's coming from.

You know, as you're talking, as you call it, the dance, I instantly go to Sue Johnson's work, and Sue Johnson talks about, you know, if we have a dance, because most of the time my clients can say, I'll say this or I'll do this, and he'll do this, and we've been doing this over and over and over again, and we'll both shut down and we'll both, like. We have scripted patterns that we oftentimes repeat over and over and over again. That's the dance. That's what Sue Johnson calls a dance. And she says, if we can recognize our steps and change the music, we've got to recognize, say, oh, here's our pattern, here's what we're doing, and this is a little bit more mature. This is a little further along in couples healing of starting to say, oh, I can see when you do that, I get triggered, and here's what I do, and it drives you bonkers. And then here we go again, which.

Is an immature part of communicating. When we learn to understand the dance between us and step back as an evaluator and say, okay, well, here's here's how I'm normally responding in this situation. And I'm going to choose to do it differently because when we can't get our partner to engage with us or we feel like we can't, that's very. As a helpless place, it's a hopeless place. Like, I. There's nothing I can do that helps us in our relationship. And when I see couples at that point, sometimes they're on the brink of divorce because they feel so hopeless about their inability to communicate in this relationship.

Yeah, they get caught in these cycles and. And it's kind of like we've got. These are the above. Like this above the surface behaviors we call each other. You know, we say certain things, we do certain behaviors. They're above the surface. What's really going on there is this underneath unmet need. And as you know, you know, when we're doing couples therapy, we'll usually, like, try to help our clients get down to what's deep down underneath. It's never about the socks on the floor. It's never about, you know, the. The piddly little thing that we get upset about. There's always something deeper down if we can figure out, here's what I really need. You know, in couples therapy, we'll usually say, once we help our client get there, we'll say, you want to turn to your partner and look them in the eyes and tell them what your need is and ask. And that is one of the most vulnerable moments that we see in couple repair and couple work is being able to say, here's what I need. I'm letting you see it, and can you help me with it? Can you understand me? That's different.

So what I hear there, let's just take it away from the words themselves, which we're inviting, but notice the tone and the body language. Right. If you're watching this, you can actually see that process. Right. There's a softness, the tone of voice, but also the body language leaning into it. But more often than not, when we communicate need, sometimes we do it in a way you never or you won't.

So you're. So it's a blaming, shaming language. It feels that way.

Right. Because I. I'm so frustrated that we're not connecting that I often use words that are hurtful.

Sorry, can we slow that down? So when you say you never. So if you were saying to me, if, if we were, you know, role playing this, and you were saying you never. Who cares what the XYZ is? If we slow that Down. What is it that's really underneath there that you really need, Dr. Skinner?

So in that situation, I have a need to feel heard, to feel understood, to get a response from you. And so what I'm doing is, I'm telling you, realistically, I don't like our interaction right now, and it's ticking me off.

But you're saying, like, you. Like, I never hear you, and you feel hurt and upset about that, but what you're really saying is that you want to be heard. You want and need to be heard.

Yes, exactly. And that what we just role played is exactly what we're talking about. Right. Can we reflect that and try to understand on the deeper level? Because at my initial response, I mean, if I said reverse, I said, okay, Marianne, what does it do to you when I say you never?

Oh, yeah, like, my walls go up. I feel defensive. I feel like, oh, what do you mean I never. What. What did I. What did I do wrong? I feel like I'm in trouble. Yeah.

Yes.

And that's a pretty normal response. And so I can't meet you. I can't hear where you're at. I can't even figure out, oh, there's something going on that he needs to have met when he. When he uses those words, because I'm suddenly preparing for attack.

Yeah. And now we get into this cycle because now you come back with. What phrase would you come back with if you. If I said you never? Marianne, that's not true.

Of course that's not true.

Or.

And what about you? Like, are you serious? Are you kidding me? Let's look at all the times that you didn't. That you don't like. And then we're just, like, right there in the cycle. And it goes quick, doesn't it?

And then what happens is it begins to feel hopeless because we don't know how to solve this. And we go to our own corners, metaphorically, our own, you know, places in the house. Or maybe I go and, you know, off on a road trip or I go to the store, because I don't. I don't want to be around you.

Yeah.

And now we don't know what to do with that. And so maybe a day or two later, we, you know, I'm sorry. And nothing's resolved with I'm sorry. It's just. I'm sorry that we fought. We didn't.

Okay, we're not talking about that. We're just pretend like it's not there. Move forward.

Another one of these problems under the rug just to Try to ignore it. And that's what we see as therapists on a regular basis, where couples get into that cycle, don't know how to solve it, but here they are.

Yeah. There's an image that. I don't know where I heard it, but I, I was working with a client this week and it came up and I was like, oh, I love this image, what you just described. It's like we're making a bed and there's all these, all this junk in it, and we're just pulling the covers over. Nobody can see it, but like, it's pretty lumpy, it's pretty uncomfortable. But we've got the covers pulled over it so we can't see it. The work we need to do is start, like pulling back the covers and really saying, like, here's the issues that we haven't been addressing. Here's what we really need to start working on and figuring out how to do. But oftentimes it's easier to pull that cover up and then we just don't see it. We pretend like the lumps aren't there.

And if we're going to do it, I would say in an effective way, we need to be in a position where we're not defensive. Right. We need to do it in a position where I want to understand what you are saying. And I have found that far too often when couples try that communication, they get into those little seemingly simple words, you never. Or you don't even have empathy, or you don't care, or you're not listening. Or again, it could be any type of accusation. Criticism.

Yeah. And it might not even be an accusation or criticism might be like, hey, would you please take care of that? You know, like, you haven't cleaned the bathroom. Would you mind taking out the trash something. And we might hit a shame spiral. We might hit something where, oh, they just saw that I didn't do what I was supposed to do, and now I lash back. Well, you didn't do this. And here we go. And what I'm trying to say is it's, it's not always hurtful words. It can be well intended words, but we react to it.

Yeah.

And yeah. Get into the cycle.

So I look at this situation and I say, what percentage of couples have that dynamic of communication, that kind of communication going on on a regular basis? And I'm going to say a lot of couples are communicating that way in a way that's not effective, where I feel I have to be defensive or I have to come back in some way you're not listening. Right. And I feel empty in that communication because I don't feel like we're. We're getting any. We're not solving anything, and when we don't know how to solve it. And that's what I want to transition to. How do we get our partner engaged when we don't know? Like, why do I have to do it? Right. How do we do that when we're. We've tried everything that we know, and it hasn't worked. It's not working.

Oh, yeah. Dr. Skinner, before we move on, I think there's two things I want to just add to that. I really want to just validate what you just said for our listeners. If you are in a relationship where there's been betrayal, and if you are working and you're working really hard, it can feel hopeless when it feels like, oh, I. I just had a client recently be like, really, Marianne, here's something else you're telling me. Why is it all on my shoulders? Why do I have to do all of this work? We were talking about reflective listening, and I want to. The second thing I wanted to add is I have a reflective listening course. It's free on human intimacy. It's called Seven Essential Skills for Healthy Communication. I should know the name of it. I don't. Apparently, it's a short, small course on how to use these tools, how to reflect effectively. But it can feel overwhelming to say, oh, I'm the one going to therapy. I'm the one doing the work, and I'm not seeing this. The same level, maybe, of motivation from my partner. It's incredibly disheartening.

And so when that happens, then my choice is to pull back because I'm not getting the response. And so we're living more like roommates than we are married partners. And the other part of it is I begin to have some internal resentment. And so I spend more time thinking about it because I actually resent the fact that we're not communicating. I don't feel like you're hearing or you're listening or you're engaged. And to me, that's a concern, because when couples are. Again, at that point, I talk with people often. It's like I don't know how to communicate. I don't know how to get my partner engaged. I don't know how to get them motivated. And I really believe this, Marian. I really do. I believe that if people had the knowledge of how to do something, I really believe they would do it. I just think so many Times they get in the dynamic and their buttons, their triggers are so sensitive because they've been dealing with this for so long. It feels like I freeze up. I don't know what to do. So a few years ago I was reading a book about what people do in a stressful or crisis situation. And I often compare these here, right? And in that book it said that there's the three groups of people, 10% of people in a crisis, they actually can step back, evaluate what's happening and make decisions in a very effective way. And in some situations, in high level of crisis, they might save lives because of what they've done. Then there's about 80% of us that freeze and our initial response is we don't know what to say or what to do. I think that's where most of the couples that I work with, that's where they're at. They've been in this crisis. They don't know what to do. In those moments. They, their spouse comes, can I talk with you? And it's like, oh, right, even that body language and that, you know, eventually they can unthaw. Maybe they go take a time out and then they come back and they've thought through some things maybe. And then there's 10% of people, they just simply make matters worse. And so something negative is happening and they just come and they just, they just blow things up. Well, I'm going to. I want a divorce. And so they threw out there the biggest weapon, I call it, as a way to change the dialogue. If you're going to keep doing this, I just want a divorce. Can we metaphorically help the 80% so they're not frozen for too long of a period of time and help them be more effective in how they communicate.

I love this idea. A couple weeks ago I was in Sedona. So I was traveling. I was out of my normal environment. I went to the grocery store to pick some things up and I put my phone, which I use for work. I put it, you know, my grocery cart and I did my shopping and I. And I left. I walked out the door and I got to my car and I was like, my hands spill empty. And I realized I didn't have my phone in my hands and I panicked. I was like, oh no, what have I. I've got so much tied up in my phone. And I turned around and I ran back in and the cart that I had just like left at the door was gone. And I had that moment. And I just want to validate this, this 80% frozen. I think it happens to all of us, and I think there's a reason why. I remember standing in the doorway of this grocery store going like, oh, my goodness. I. I do not even know what to. I don't know what to do here. I froze. And then I thought about that. Like, hold on. There's. There's 80% and 20 and 10% and 10%. I thought, what am I going to do here? And I froze. But here's why I froze, because I didn't have a template in my mind. I didn't have a map that says, when you lose your phone in the grocery store and somebody takes your cart with it, here's what to do. I had no idea. It makes sense that we freeze because our brain's like, I don't know, like, new scenario. What do I do here Now? I started hunting down people and. And then I found a better solution and found my phone, but it took a minute for me to, like, go. I. I don't even have an idea what I can even do here. That freezing makes sense to me because I don't have a map. We need maps. We.

How did you eventually get your phone back?

Well, I walked along all the aisles, and I was, like, looking for. I was like, okay, some guys came in after me. They must. Maybe they took the cart. So I was looking for the guys. I went through all the areas. I couldn't find it. So I was like, I'm just going to stand here in front of the cash registers. They got to pay. At some point, I started asking, hey, does you. Do you have a phone? And then I saw a store worker, and I said, I lost my phone. And they got on the PA and they said, if anybody has a phone that's not theirs, please bring it up. And, like, in 30 seconds, somebody brought it up. And I was so relieved, but I needed some outside help. And I had a plan, you know, hunt people down. It didn't work. Stand here. Somebody's gotta come out at some point. But I had a lot of panic. And then somebody who could think clearly was like, oh, we'll just use our overhead PA system. That was a simple solution for them, but it took a while to get there. It wasn't part of my template.

So maybe initial freeze, not knowing, okay, what do I do? Then your mind starts going into action. That's a perfect example. 80% of us in the beginning, I think couples experience this when they get into, can we have a conversation? Or they start trying to dialogue about an issue, and we Freeze.

Yeah. We don't have a time. What do we do with this template, even? Or let me just add on to that, because I think this comes back to just our previous part of our conversation. If we've got some barriers there, if we've got that really lumpy bed and we've just been pulling the covers over and not addressing things. Yeah. When we hit that point, we're like, oh, here we are again. Or we're frozen. We just don't have the tools or we don't have the intimacy or the ability or the trust. And so this just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and deeper and deeper. And our commitment to that relationship, if we don't have that intimacy, it gets smaller and smaller. That's probably not the right word, but it lessens.

And what I would say there is, I form a belief, and the belief is that we can't solve problems. Or I might even say more directly, when I communicate with you, you don't listen. A belief. You're not listening. You don't care. Right. Which makes me feel like I don't matter. So in our communication, we get to core beliefs like, I'm not important to you. And that's where I see couples really struggle, because now it's. I have a belief about our marriage and about how we solve problems. And so you say, can we have it? Can we talk about this? And I already have this emotion inside of me. Oh, no, here we go again.

And you'll probably add another belief in there at some point and say, it's not even worth it. Why even bother?

Yeah, Hopelessness.

Yeah. Gonna give up here.

All right, so I'm gonna guess that many of our listeners are like, check, check, check. You got us. Yep. You understand us real well.

Yeah.

Now what do we do about it?

This is the crux of the conversation that I think is fantastic.

So I'm going to just tell you as we start this conversation, the first tool that I would give you is, you need to step back and look at you. How am I communicating? Am I clear of what I'm trying to say? Do I even understand what I'm feeling? Or am I so defensive that I'm not able to hear what you're actually saying? And there's a lot in what I just said. We could break that down into a podcast just on that process that I just described. In fact, I even have a course, how to communicate when you don't know what to say. Again, that's on Human intimacy. How to communicate when you don't know what to say. Because what I find, Marianne, is that process of slowing down that skill, that single skill. If you get it right, you can communicate with nearly everybody.

So, Dr. Skinner, we better say it again two or three times to make sure we get it, because I'm sitting here going, let me see if I can repeat it back. Now I got. I need to check in with myself and see what's going on with me. I got that part. So slow down, check with myself.

That in and of itself might take a significant amount of time, Marianne.

Sure.

What am I feeling? What am I experiencing? What's going on here inside of me? That maybe I'm defensive or maybe I'm angry and I'm just wanting to get you. I want you to hear me, but I'm asking myself the question.

Yeah, yeah. And I. I'm not sure if you're talking about this or maybe, maybe this, because I need to hear your steps again. But, you know, Gottman, John Gottman talks about a taking a timeout, and we all need. And we might need a timeout. We might need to say, hey, I can see that we're both getting to a place where we're not gonna be really communicating really well. And I need to figure some things out. I need to step away. I'm gonna come back in 10 or 15 minutes, and I think there's some really important wording here. I'm not leaving you. I'm not leaving the conversation. I'm going to come back to it in 10, 15 minutes. I just need a little bit of time to work through my own emotions and figure out what's going on. I think that's imperative in this. Where am I? How am I connecting? Because if I'm emotionally dysregulated, if I'm defensive, I'm not coming to the table in a workable place, and we need to come there.

And so let's. I want to put this in a real life scenario. Let's say that you are a person who's betrayed your spouse, and they come to you and they say, hey, I'd like to talk with you about something. And your natural response is, oh, here we go again. This is going to be a four hour conversation and you're going to be upset and you're going to be yelling, and I. Right, I just. Okay, I'm ready. Bring it on. Just the language, the body. Is there a way that we can have a more effective conversation? I may be thinking, because I don't want to be yelled at, and I won't want you to just tell me how bad I am. That's what I hear from many of my clients. But what would happen if you said, in your mind, when that happens, I'm going to lean into this conversation. I would like to talk with you, and I'd like to hear what you have to say. What does that do to you? Just that.

Marianne, it's interesting that you asked that, because as you were. As you were coming in there, I was like, I don't know if I'm going to talk about this right now, but I can. I felt red, like, my whole body. I can feel my lower gut. I'm just like, ugh. Ugh. And so when you said. And then you came back and you rephrased it, saying, I'd like to talk with you about it, that's a soft. That's an entrance. That's an opening. But I can recognize there. There's two parts I think, that show up for me is as I do need to listen to my body and go, who. Where am I at? Can. Am I in a good space to engage right now? And do I need to once again step away and go, I gotta go figure some things out? But there's also a part of this where, when. If I've been betrayed, there may be some questions that I need to hear and some things that I need to ask, and sometimes I ask them over and over and over again. And one of the things that, as we're working with clients who've betrayed their partners is, yeah, you keep having that conversation over and over and over again. There's a reason why your partner might need to have it. And I know you were talking about the betrayer coming, but there can be that. Oh, I don't want to talk about this again. Why do you keep bringing this up? Aren't you done with this? I already told you everything. Can't we just move on? I hear that a lot. And that's not coming from a place of empathy, of, I've hurt you. And I can see that this is hard for you, and I can still be with you.

And I will say it the other way. The thing that I've heard for the person who is betraying is just where I knew what you said. Like, okay, but this is our. The hundredth time we've had this conversation.

Yeah.

What am I missing? What am I not understanding? I. I can write. Maybe even angrier than that. But what if we said, wait a second, this is obviously important to you because it's something that we've talked about a lot. What is it that I'm not understanding about what you're saying? There's something I'm probably not getting because this is important enough, you're bringing it up again. Am I not understanding? Am I not. Are there questions that you still have that are unresolved? Help me understand.

What you just did right there, Dr. Skinner. You opened a door. What that does is that opens a door to me, saying, oh, okay, I can ask him. And he's willing to give me the information that I need. He wants to understand. He wants to answer what I need. He's willing. He's not defensive. He's not protecting himself. He's not in shame. He wants to help me understand. And I don't feel dumb for asking again and again and again.

All right, so now you've asked the question, whatever the question is. And what if my answer doesn't change? It's the same answer. I don't know how to answer it in a different way because I've tried answering the best. And why did you do that? Why. Why did you act out? And the answer, it may be that I've heard over and over again is I wasn't in my right mind. I. Sometimes I hear people say, that was my addict. Me. Sometimes I hear people say, I've been doing that most of my life and I didn't realize it was going to hurt you so bad. And I've heard lots of these explanations, but I don't find that those answers are ever enough.

No.

To help healing. So where. Where are they? Missing Marianne.

Well, I don't know if it's always about the answer that I'm giving. I think it's about the reassurance that my partner needs. I think it's about my openness. I think it's about, once again, it's not about the words. It's not about what's happening on top. So I can ask the same question, this. This above the surface question over and over and over again. And this the response might need to be, I've answered this for you. My answer hasn't changed, but I can see there's something still not resolved for you. I'm wondering if there's something else or there's something underneath this that we need to talk about, and this is maybe where we need to see. Where do we go deeper? How do we go deeper? Because obviously there's a reason why it's not enough. There's something going on.

And could I even take it a step further by saying something Like, I want to help through this. I want to do it right. I want to connect with you. I want to us as a couple to be able to move beyond this, because I see how it's hurting you.

And maybe adding on to that. And I'm happy to keep answering your questions. That answer hasn't changed, and it hasn't changed. But I'm committed to continuing to help answer anything that I can to help you through this.

So what if your partner then says, well, obviously you haven't thought enough about it because your answer isn't enough. You need to think more about why you did what you did.

Yeah. You know, Dr. Skinner, like, as you say that, I think it's important. I know we're trying to really model, like, this healthy interchange. I think it's important to also note sometimes my clients have more information. Sometimes. Sometimes my clients are in this space right here, and they're like, I'm giving you the opportunity, man. I've got a whole list of things that I know that you haven't shared me. And I'm asking for them right here. And not that we should, like, test our partners, but sometimes my clients do. They're trying to figure out, can I trust you? Can you be here? Can you really give me the information? And sometimes we also might. This sounds so weird, but we. We sometimes might want to sabotage. Sometimes it's kind of like, okay, I'm starting to trust you, but let me see how far I can. What happens if I push? What happens if I push? What happens if I push? Are you going to still be there? You've hurt me so much. There's been a lot of damage. And you say that you're in this, but what happens if I push?

Are you really.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not saying it's necessarily healthy, but I see it. It happens because I'm trying to figure out, are you. Are you for real? Because I don't.

Are you really going to be soft with me? Are you really going to stay in this space? Or are you eventually going to get defensive? And I think that that's the dance that many couples do. That's dangerous.

Yeah.

Because eventually I get worn out. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to do this anymore. And, you know, you. You just keep bringing these things.

There we go.

And there we go into that cycle. So.

Sorry, can I.

Go ahead.

I wanna add one more thing. It's really tricky, I think, in this space as well, because I might be asking something. Cause something feels off to me. And my partner might be soft. He might be using all the right words, and something might still feel off to me, even though I may not have concrete evidence. And I'm really trying. I'm like, yeah, but there's something. Those words that you said, they just don't feel right. They just don't add up. And so I might be pushing for that answer. I might be asking the same question because it feels off, because my gut's telling me something. Something's not there. And so that happens, too. I just want to make sure that we're, like, putting all these options on the table right here, because it'd be great if our spouse or partner is. Is soft and giving us the right answers. But sometimes there's still some deception going on, and that's where it makes it so hard, because we're being vulnerable.

And there's where I command the importance of rigorous honesty and just being able to say, if you. If you have done your work, look at your reflection, trying to answer the questions the best, and you're not hiding anything the other side of that coin, then you need to actually lean into that look. I don't know what else to say. I've done reflection. I've looked at my story. There's nothing that I'm hiding. Now, that's hard to accept when there has been consistent deception. But I tell individuals, when you're in recovery, your energy actually shows. You're in recovery. You can't. Can't deceive it. There's an energy about you, a team, a conversation. So you're reaching out to people. You're open to vulnerabilities, and you're not scared of it. That's where I see individuals, like, what you see is what you get. They don't feel like there's any more deception or hiding of their behaviors. And they're actually, in that sense, a sense of confidence.

Yeah. And. And I think we're so good as human beings at picking up the deception. And. And. And so when it feels like it's there, that's. And I think that's one of the dances we get into. No, I've told you everything. No, everything's there. And sometimes because of those patterns that have gone over and over and over again, that trust is. It hasn't been rebuilt yet, and it's. So this is the place, that vulnerable space of. I can see that I haven't built your trust. I can see that you still don't believe me. And I am committed to moving forward. I care about you. And I want to get to a place where you feel like you can trust me. And I'm committed to doing the work to rebuild that trust. And I have done damage. And it makes sense that you don't trust me right now.

And what you just did creates a climate or an environment where it usually is going to soften your partner's heart because you're acknowledging you're aware. I haven't done this well, and I. But I still want to be there. And that acknowledgement and validation is a really important part of this process. And that's where I've, again, I find that that's where we're often lacking in our communication, is expressing our desire to solve the problem. I want to do this because I want a connection. Those are all validating things. Shows commit to the relationship and can really, in my mind, that's where couples are turning the corner. Really effective way.

I think that's what we call that. That would be like the mature conversation that. That starts right there.

Yeah. And when we get that right, you feel it. And I see this in couples is like, that was actually good. And I love it when I see couples doing that because it's like, okay, they now know what works and there's hope.

Suddenly I'm in this place where we started the conversation where I was terrified and I didn't know and I was really worried about the outcome. And I come back going like, oh, that felt so good because we connected and there was vulnerability and, oh, I have hope that we can make it through.

I have a metaphor here about our environment. So every relationship has an enviro. Sometimes it's sunny, sometimes it's partly cloudy. Sometimes there are storm clouds, and sometimes we're in a hurricane. The environment that we choose to create is important because that influences the relationship. One of us might be partly cloudy, and one of us might be a hurricane. But I can, from a place, be a person who says, I'm. I'm going to choose to communicate from a place of it's partly cloudy. Or I can communicate from an environment where I'm a hurricane. I can become defensive, I can be angry. I can be all of those things. I can be critical. But what that does is it brings to the relationship the storm. And our challenge is to communicate from a partly cloudy to a sunny way to create an environment. And I'm not going to say we're going to do this, especially in the beginning, after discovery, this is not normal. But as couples mature, they bring difficult issues to the forefront. But they do it from a partly cloudy way, not a hurricane or a storm way. Now, sometimes they have to, because the communication of what they're talking about is so important to them that they're like, I have to do this. But even there, we can create an environment that is effective. And even there, when I see individuals say, who've been betrayed, when they're really trying to communicate effectively, it's like, what am I really trying to say here? What. What do I want my partner to understand? That reflection before you go to that communication is a preparation stage that most people skip. So they go straight into the process already almost flooded or hijacked. And what it leads to is this couple dynamic where it's like, I don't know what to do. You're too upset. And that is where I see couples break it down. If both partners. If my partner comes in is really upset, then if I've betrayed them, I need to sit with them in that space because I created the pain. But if both partners come from an effective place of communication, I'm hurting right now. And I've thought about it, because when you did this and this, it triggered me all over the place, and I've lost trust because of those things. That's a partly cloudy conversation.

All right. I've been thinking about this. I didn't know where you were going with this, Dr. Skinner. So as I'm hearing you. What I'm hearing you say is, we need to take some time. This goes back to your principle number one of the taking some time and saying, where am I at? How am I coming back in to engage? And. And I. I would want to add on to that. I can come in from my soft place. But if my partner's coming in at a hurricane, this might be a place where. This is where I would. I love reflective listening tools where I can just say, wow, looks like there's a hurricane going on for you. I mean, I wouldn't use, you know, but, wow. When I asked you to take out the trash, that was a really big reaction. Like, that surprised me. What's going on for you? Because that seemed like that really hit a tender nerve for you when I asked that. Help me understand what just happened for you when I asked that.

So you're just describing a spot there, Marianne, that is curious and trying to understand, but our natural defensiveness, our desire to either fight or flee when someone else is elevated emotionally is off the charts high.

Yeah.

And what we're actually talking about here is learning to use the prefrontal cortex to assess what just happened. So from a biological perspective, your natural disposition when you hear intense emotion is to pull back. That's normal. Or to, yeah, we're saying face the storm, lean into it, try to understand, be understanding. Because this emotion might have been created by what you did. Nevertheless, if I can't get that soothing to occur by that softness, then we need to take a timeout. If I come at you trying to understand, if I. If I'm trying to understand the pain and we're not able to negotiate that and it's still consistently elevated, then you need to take a time out. The research by John Gottman is really important here. If you're flooded, which would be a hundred heartbeats over a minute, then that's the flooded state. And that's where all research suggests. You can't do effective marital therapy there. And if you're by yourself, I don't think you're going to solve the problem because it's so escalated that the intensity of the emotion is going to shut down the effect of communication, which is why it's so important to be able to communicate from a sunny environment or a partly cloudy or even there's a potential storm here. Location.

Yeah. Let me add just one part onto that. And. And this is not necessarily. I was thinking about, how do I say this? If I've been recently betrayed and I'm really in that raw space, this may not apply. Exactly. But when I'm maybe a little bit further on in. In the healing process, my partner storm, it may not be about me. It may not have anything to do about me. And my partner may be showing up with a storm and I may be instantly wanting to react. And the reality is, might not be about you. So hold on a second. Take a deep breath, and if you can reflect back and say, whoa, looks like something's going on. It's like there's some dysregulation going on. What if it's not about me? If it's not about me. Oh, there. There's so much relief. I can still stay engaged with my prefrontal cortex. I can stay engaged in where it's at because it's not about me. It doesn't have to. It's not because of what I did or what I didn't do. I can see that they're having a hard time, and I can have a lot more compassion and a lot more empathy because I don't need to react to it, because that's their story.

And if it is about me, I did do something wrong. I was late or I didn't communicate effectively, then I probably need to listen and understand. This is so important to you. I. I can tell because your emotions share with this. Tell me it's so important to you. Help me understand. I care. I want to be there. That's the language that can soften the storm, because you are in this place where you can hear and not become defensive and not flee away. What we're saying here is so important because everything we're talking about today is creating a process where we're more effective in our communication. Marianne. And if couples can just practice and implement some of these steps, they're going to start having better experiences, more mature conversations, and the more they have, the more hope they have and the more comfortable they feel sharing difficult emotions with each other. That's my hope.

Yeah. I feel like I say yeah, and then I add in every time. So here's my. Yeah, let me add in. I think we're also talking about a really tricky space here. So if you're blustery and it is because of something that I did, like I betrayed you, and your hurt is completely valid, and you're, you know, your storm is really valid because I just did that. It can be so hard to come to you in a soft place for me, because I see your storm, and for me to come in that soft place, boy, I might really have to wrestle with that, because most of the time, I'm going to see my clients. Usually we hit shame right there. We hit shame and we hit fear of you're going to reject me. And, yeah, I did do that, and I did screw that up, and you saw it, and I've hurt you. And a lot of times my clients will go, and everything's lost, and here we go. And so we get caught up in our own reactive fears and our own protective things. And so in that space, we may have to even say, your hurt, your anger. Your reaction is absolutely valid. And I'm going to step away for just a minute because I need to clear my head so I can come back and be present with you to hear it. Because right now I'm recognizing that I'm having some really big emotions, and I'm not. And I'm just regulating. I don't want to show up this way. And so I need to get to a space where I can come back and hear it. So I may need to postpone that conversation. And that's going to be more effective than engaging and being halfway there or not being able to engage, because I'm sitting here listening, and I'm in a shame spiral. And then it became all about me, and I can't hear anything about you.

Yeah. So, Marianne, as we get ready to close today's podcast, I'm just realizing something. Our next podcast needs to be the follow up to this podcast.

All right.

Because right now we're in the middle of this.

We are.

And because what you just said is really important, if someone's truly in a place where they have. There's a trigger and they're asking for a timeout. The pattern that most couples have there, Marianne, is we take a time out, but we don't. We don't come back and talk about it. Or when we do come back, we're in the same exact place because we haven't done personal work while we're apart. I think we need to talk about that process of when you're in a timeout, when you're stepping back. What would be some effective solutions while you're preparing to have this really important conversation? So the mental preparation to have that kind of a conversation.

All right, so is that our next podcast, Dr. Skinner?

I just think we need to. Because I think we're in the middle of a story.

So it sounds like we need to wrap up for today and we'll come back for our listeners. Just hit pause and come back to us next week. And I would love for our listeners to, as we're going to YouTube, to whether they want to comment or share from there or even to how would they, you know, if we're saying, hey, we're pausing this and we're picking back up, like, Dr. Skinner, how would they respond? Like, reach out with additional questions or comments to you?

Well, they can do it on the YouTube channel, my YouTube channel, Dr. Kevin Skinner's YouTube channel. They can also questions@humanintimacy.com and if you really want to get engaged, then Marianne's free course on Human intimacy dot com. And if you want even more direction, the how to communicate when you don't know what to say course is also available. So anyway, those are some resources to really accelerate this process. But next time, let's come back, Marianne, and let's continue this conversation. I think it's a really important one for our clients and for our listeners.

I think it is, too. Thank you so much today.

All right, well, thank you for being a part of the Human intimacy podcast for Maryanne. Dr. Kevin Skinner. Thank you so much for being with us.

Goodbye. Something surround you. It's like you're shining.

You're staring.