Why Can’t I Stop Thinking About the Affair? Understanding Rumination, Triggers, and Healing After Betrayal (Episode #117)

Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something's around.

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Mykolas. Marianne, I hope you're doing well today.

Thanks, Dr. Skinner. I am. How about you?

You know, it's interesting. As I've been recently, I attended the annual ITAP Symposium. It's always amazing to see the great presenters that ITAP has on sexual addiction, overcoming betrayal trauma. And then I just, I just am so grateful for the work that we get to do. And I had the privilege of presenting on the difference between empathy and compassion and introducing that to therapists. And it just really, it just good feedback. And it's always good to get feedback, but to learn and continue learning as I present this and Man, I'm just so excited to be able to present that at the 12-week course that we have coming up.

Earlier today we were in a meeting together and I just sat for a moment and went, wow, you were talking about you had created a gaslighting scale years and years ago. I think you said like 2006. It's in this meeting we were in. I just had this moment of, I am sitting with a pioneer. I'm sitting in this space and I share this space with somebody who is one of the world's leading experts and a pioneer in this area. I just really felt a lot of gratitude to be here and to be able to say there are some tools that we have and here is what the research says. I'm so grateful for your research and your work. And as you're talking about presenting at the ITEP conference, I know the podcast we did just a little while ago where we talked about empathy and compassion and how I know that so many of us have been looking at it the wrong way. And had it mixed up. I know that's really significant. And so to hear you say, yes, I went and I shared at this conference to other professionals. Thank you for the work that you do. This is really important work.

You know, Marian, I just feel lucky, right? I love what I do, but I love the research component because in our field there isn't a lot of research and we really need it. And so that's one of the things that I just, I love getting these ideas and putting them out there. I had like 117 therapists in my presentation. So they're licensed therapists.

That's a big crowd of therapists.

Yeah. I just love the opportunity. With that foundation, if you haven't listened to that podcast on empathy versus compassion and trying to help understand the shift of it, there's so much in terms of couple healing. It's such an important concept because we've misunderstood it. But transitioning from that, Marianne, to, I think today's topic is something that we, I don't know about you, but I've been asked so many times, like, I, how do I get these thoughts out of my mind? And the exact quote is, why can't I stop thinking about the affair or my partner's sexual betrayal? So we're shifting into this place of rumination. The thoughts aren't leaving my mind. I want to do this from both partners' perspective because the betraying partner will often say things like, why can't we move faster?

Why can't you just get over it? I'm not doing that anymore.

And in some ways they feel like it's over, but the betrayed partner continues to think about it. The term we use is rumination. And I want to address that today because I have seen it over and over. And I have received some questions like, what are your best strategies to help when I can't get over these thoughts that just keep invading my mind? And so I'd like to talk about that one today. And do it from both partners' perspective to make sense of it. So maybe there's less judgment and more awareness of what's actually happening.

I'd like to start maybe with just validating that experience, validating if I'm a betrayed partner and my partner has acted out sexually in some way, shape, or form, in that being in that space of why can't I get this out of my mind? First of all, our our reality has shifted. Oftentimes our, what we found, you know, talking about research, as you know, we have the, the, we have the Grief After Betrayal Impact Scale, which if you will link in the notes as well, that's some research that we're currently doing. But the early findings in that show that there's a loss of identity, a loss of reality, a loss of trust. Those are some of the most painful and most impactful parts of betrayal. And so if I'm in this space where I don't know what my reality is, our brains are predictive. Our brains are trying to predict what's next. But if I don't know what my reality is, and if I don't know this person that I really trust, that I was anchored to and had this deep attachment and trust and faith with, if that's gone, I'm like a boat floating around where I don't have an anchor. Yeah. It's really hard to say, well, how do I get home? How do I get back home? I don't even know. Cause I can't figure it out. I'm just in the middle of the ocean floating around. I have no idea. And so our brain is trying to predict and say, how do I, how do I trust? How do I get there? And so the brain is trying to find a solution. I think this is a space for a lot of self-compassion.

Especially starting off because we think we should get through it faster. Like, why can't I move on? Why? Why do I feel stuck with these same thoughts just repeating in my mind? Whether that's a rumination of something that's occurred, or you could be triggered just by random things. I've heard, you know, people in grocery stores or people in church settings or people, I mean, as simple as I'm driving down the road and I see somebody. And so why can't I stop thinking about it? Usually if we go back in the beginning of discovery, It's a shocking experience in many cases where you don't realize it and then you, the D-Day occurs. And from that moment on, there's a shift. And what we look at inside the brain, the brain is now trying to make sense of something that it had maybe not considered previously, or maybe it was a fear before and now it's validated. And so the mind is now trying to make sense of something that does not make sense to it.

That reminds me, during COVID I remember listening to a podcast by Brené Brown and she talked about exhaustion and she talked about how our brains don't have a template for COVID. So every day people are getting up going, how do we do this? There's nobody alive who actually knows how to do this, who's been through this. And nobody knew what to expect, what came next. And I think that is really analogous to this concept that we're talking about. When I've been betrayed, I don't know what to expect. I don't know what's next. And it's exhausting. And our mind is once again trying to figure it out. I have a question for you though on this, Dr. Skinner. Yeah. Because I'm wondering where this fits or what your thoughts are on how this might fit. One of the things that I see all of the time that I'm sure you see all of the time is my clients will say, or even me in my own experience, my brain gets it. I can understand it logically. It makes sense, but my, my body doesn't, like my emotions don't match what my brain— there's a disconnect there. And I'm wondering, how do you see that fitting into this conversation?

I think that's a great point because logically I may work through some of the details. I might, you know, ask my partner, what occurred and get maybe a partial part of the story and then more of the story, that trickle truth. But when I get all of the story, sometimes there's like, okay, I now understand what happened logically. My body still does not feel safe. So I understand what occurred. My body still feels that there's a threat. I could be driving down the road and I see a car that's like the affair partner's car, or I could be driving by a certain place that reminds me of what I discovered or the day that I discovered. And so those triggers, the body still feels threatened by those places. So places, people can be triggers. Situations can be triggers. So logically, my mind may say, okay, I now know that the affair is over, that that's not happening anymore, I still don't feel safe because I don't know that it can't happen again. So there's this underlying physiological feeling. The body is putting out this threat alert saying, I need you to be cautious here because how do you know you're safe? And that's really what's happening, I think, inside the body. Well, logically, if I looked at the details, I'd say it doesn't feel the same. It feels different. Progress. But I still have these fear feelings. And this is the battle that I see inside in couple, in the individual that's been betrayed. And the person who is the betrayer is often confused themselves. Like, we've had this conversation. How do you not know that I'm not going to do this again? I'm a safe person now. And that just doesn't ring true for the betrayed partner.

And I think there's a spectrum here. One of the things that I appreciate from Dr. Carnes's work is he talks about first order and second order of change. And a first order of change is, okay, I stopped the behavior, but a second order of change is having the insight and the values change. It's the internal, really deep work and awareness. And he says it takes— it can take up to 2 to 3 years to get to the place where I'm really in the second order of change process. And so we're talking about the spectrum here. And so my partner might be saying, or the betraying partner might be saying, how do you know I'm not gonna do this yet or do this anymore? And that betrayed partner might, like their gut might be saying, I don't know if you're safe yet. It doesn't like, there's still some defensive behaviors. There's still some, some things that haven't been worked out yet. And so that doesn't create the trust for me that I, that I need in here.

And so the process here is really a part of the patience, right? Because I want— again, who wants to be in this kind of pain? There's nobody that said, oh yeah, bring on this. I love ruminating. I love thinking about what you did. Nobody thinks that. And the betraying partner, I honestly think if they could just tell me how to do this so I can heal it, they would. Right. But there isn't that kind of a formula. It is truly— when we talk about consistency, I know this word is overused, We talk about consistency. We gotta be consistent. Well, right. We do. But that second order change that you're referring to, there is a part of that, that I no longer feel the way I used to feel. So the, often the betraying spouse will probably know well before the betrayed spouse of where their heart is. They see the pain they've created. They can identify, like, the rabbit hole that they went down, and they often will tell me that they feel disgusted with their former self. They're gonna know physiologically, they're gonna know what's in their thoughts. They're really gonna know what's in their brain well before the betrayed does. And the betrayed is still asking the question, like, who are you? Are you safe? And so when these thoughts continue to come back, again, we're talking about You know, why do I keep thinking about the affair? Usually it's because there's so many triggers. And if I brought up every time I hit a trigger to my spouse, how often are we talking about it? Over and over and over and over.

I think there's breakdown that happens here because oftentimes the partner who is betrayed in this space can get really bogged down. Oh, why are we still talking about this? Why isn't this resolved? I've told you a thousand times why. And that betray— the betrayed partner is just really trying to find safety. I wanna make sure we're also bringing in another aspect that we haven't talked about yet. And that's when we're looking through this lens of PTSD. Criteria B is intrusive thoughts. Mm-hmm. So we're, we're talking about the triggers. We're talking about these thoughts that keep going. And so we're saying, Logically, our brain is trying to figure it out. Our brain is trying to predict. And I know we need to talk about this part of it as well as the Zeigarnik effect, that our brain hasn't found the closure that it needs. But I think it's important that we're really also identifying the brain has intrusive thoughts. So we're driving down the road and suddenly out of nowhere, here's this thought. Oh, I wonder what, I wonder if, and there it is. I wasn't looking for it. I was in a good place or whatever it is, it's not that I'm just ruminating on it. It's that my brain is so graciously just providing me with a thought and a worry that I didn't even have or know or wasn't there a second ago, but now it's there and I have to deal with that.

So let's talk about ways to respond to it. Cause I think the solutions, while we can't give you what's going to be the exact solutions for you today, we can give you tools to help you with that process. The triggers are going to hit. That's inevitable. We understand that triggers are going to be hit. We also understand that how I interact with my spouse can either make it worse or better. So as the spouse who betrayed, if you can pause and just simply understand a very important concept, when your spouse brings up something that you've done, maybe for the 30th time this week, There's a reason. Not because they want to rub your nose in what you did. Not because they want you— maybe they do want you to hurt a little bit because they're hurting, but usually it's because they're looking for some kind of comfort. They are looking for some kind of soothing. Can you help my nervous system relax? Can you help comfort me somehow? And again, it may not feel that way to you, but usually that's what the betrayed spouse is saying. Is there a way you could comfort me right now? I would be more concerned if they weren't coming to you because they're in their apathy. And when partners are in apathy, your relationship is at a greater risk of being over. So the fact that your partner is asking you— what they're still saying to you is, can you comfort me in this moment? It's a very different way of looking at this experience. And if you can say that's what's happening, then your nervous system can actually be calmer rather than feeling like you have to defend or protect. Are you ever going to get over this? Why do you keep bringing this up? I feel ashamed. Pause for a second, understand that the gift is that they're asking you to comfort them. It may not feel like they're asking it, but that's what's actually happening.

I had very recently, I had a client tell me that an experience that they had with their partner. And their partner came to them and said all the right words, did everything right, but my client was kind of stuck, like, but they didn't have any emotions about it.

Hmm.

And said, yeah, they said the right words, but they didn't have any emotions about it. Well, we backtracked it cuz I wanted to get a little more information and they said, well, actually their partner had reached out to their support people. Got their support and they came and they were able to be there and be present and comfort my client. There was a part though that I believe was missing in that scenario, cuz I think they did a good job. The part that was missing though was acknowledging, hey, I made a mistake. And here, taking some responsibility. It's fantastic that they reached out and they got support for their emotions so they could sit with their partner. I think that's one of the tools, as you've been talking about, that we need. But that acknowledgement piece I think is also really valid because if not, it can feel really performative. Like, oh, you're just going through the motions. I'm not seeing a lot of emotion. Great. You can sit here and hold my pain, but, but where are your emotions in this as well? And this is about being relational, both of us showing up.

And that's a really important point because how I show up there physiologically, and this is, again, this is one of the things that I'm working on with the Intimacy Repair Method is actually helping people become aware of these crucial moments. If you don't know how to respond in that moment, you're— it's gonna be worse. And you're gonna be doing this 3 and 4 and 5 years down the road. Learning how to do this now is so incredibly important because you can do this pattern over and over. I have seen couples who've come to me and they said, we've been doing this one for 7, 10 years. And they were exhausted. They were absolutely exhausted. So there's another thing here. What we've talked about so far is having the partner respond well in those moments. I also want to give the betrayed partner their own tools because that gives them more control over this trigger. Because again, think about it this way. Am I going to the person that hurt me for this trigger? Am I going to my group or am I going to a sponsor? What if I could do things on my own to help me with those triggers? And that's a unique distinction because now I'm saying I actually have something I can do when I've been triggered. So what's your favorite techniques in those situations, Maryann? What do you offer to your clients to say, here's something you can do when you're triggered? What's your favorite one?

If my clients are having a lot of anger or rage, my favorite tool for that is I tell them to go to the dollar store to get a pool noodle. And to cut in half and to just start beating the pillow, beating their bed, beating the couch with it and verbalizing. So honoring your emotions and finding ways that you can do it with bilateral stimulation and verbalizing, saying out loud, I'm feeling XYZ. I'm feeling this. So I think it's super important to say the words because it's taking the part of our brain where we have the emotion and it's connecting it to a words. Which in our Broca area, when we have trauma, that part of our brain shuts down. And so we're taking an emotion, we're putting a word on it, and we're saying it out loud, which is we're bringing that energy up and out. And if we can find a way to physically have movement with that, I think that's my favorite one because it's using so many different parts of the body and connecting that to the emotion.

Yeah. And what I like about that is one of the things that we now know in the research that as we watch animals in trauma, I've talked with medical doctors. In fact, recently I was doing a training and a veterinarian, when I presented this question, like I shared this story of what happens, you know, when animals experience some kind of trauma. And if you want to watch this online, there is an impala that's attacked by a cheetah and you can type, you can type it in and you can watch this and the impala is initially fainting, playing possum like it's dead. And then something distracts the cheetah and the cheetah runs away and the impala stays there and the impala stays there and doesn't move. And all of a sudden you can start seeing it breathing and then you see it sit up and then it starts shaking. It's incredible. If you, and I'll try to put a link in there for those who are wanting to watch this. Then the impala does something interesting after shaking for a period of time, it gets up and runs away. Now that to me is interesting because the research shows that animals shake off their trauma. And I was talking with a veterinarian who had since become a therapist. So she was a veterinarian, becomes a therapist, and she says, what you're saying is absolutely true. Animals shake their trauma off. I said, so what do humans do? And there was silence, right? I'm in this train. There's like, what do we do when we are, when we're in trauma? How do we shake it off, so to speak? How do we do that? And that's exactly what you're referring to. You go get something and you're hitting something, you're moving the body, you're letting out the pain, trying to work it out of the body, giving it a language, making meaning of it. I would suggest that you might add a journal to this process because now you're giving a voice in a written version to what you're feeling internally. Because when we don't give a voice to our pain, it seems to just stick in us, stay with us. So if you're dealing with your partner's affair and you can't keep but thinking about it, or their other sexual behaviors, it's really valuable to slow this process down and listen to your body. You might go for a fast walk. You might get one of those pool noodle and you do that thing with it, whatever you're going to do with it, because what you're doing is you're letting it out. You're letting out that tension. You're shaking off some of the trauma. That's not the only answer. It's part of the answer. Now let's say that you're journaling about what you're feeling inside. Now you're giving it another voice. You're writing it down. The point then is when you can't get rid of thoughts, spend some time with them intentionally so your body can shake it out. And then there's another critical part. Can I let that part go today? So I can live other parts of my life rather than let this be so dominant, because it can become dominant. It can become so dominant that you don't function in your role as a parent, that you don't function in, in a job, because it's, it's dominating rather than it being contained. And containment doesn't mean ignoring. It means you're taking control over other parts of your life that you want to be more present in. And that is empowering cuz you're taking control of the parts of your life that are so important. The roles.

Thanks. I love that you said parts because I, I'd like to share another, just based on what you were sharing, it brought up some other thoughts of probably my, my equally favorite intervention for this. And it's probably about 5 different ones that I kind of like shoved all together and using a lot of 'em, but Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor is a neuroanatomist, I think is the right word. She studies the anatomy of the brain. She has a fascinating TED Talk about how our brains work. Sharon Van Dyck has a book called Calming the Emotional Storm. And, and there's some concepts that I take from both of them and I've put together, but I wanna back up for just a second. So when I'm having an emotional experience when I'm having that thought that, that's recurrent, that I can't get rid of, that I, I think the most important thing is to stop and to recognize I'm having a thought. This is what, like recognizing my reality. So many times we shift into avoidance. I wanna push it away. I wanna compartmentalize it. I don't wanna deal with this. Why can't this go away? And that's a very different space rather than embracing it. And so what I, this concept is really more about really embracing it and saying, one, first of all, I'm recognizing I am having this recurrent thought. It's intrusive. It's not going away. And so rather than push it away, this is where Jill Bolte Taylor says that if we, if we can work with the thought, she's, or the emotion, what it, because usually our thoughts and emotions are connected together, but if we can welcome it. It takes about 90 seconds for us to kind of cycle through, through the emotion or the feeling or the thought. And so slowing that down and saying, okay, okay, 90 seconds, I'm gonna just focus on this instead of saying, go away, I don't want you here. I don't wanna think about that. Can I focus on it for 90 seconds? And in Sheri Van Dyck's book, she talks about visually seeing like a door in our brain and seeing ourselves standing there and saying, Hello, I see you. Come on through. I'm not pushing you away. I'm just noticing that you're there. Mm-hmm. Just stepping, saying, I see that you're there. Come on through. And I think that's where then we bring in some self-compassion. Hey, this is really hard. You're having a hard time with this. It makes sense that with everything that you've experienced, that you will be struggling and these thoughts will be recurring. Getting lots of loving kindness as well. And so bringing in that I'm accepting what I'm experiencing, I'm validating it, I'm sitting with it, and I'm being kind to myself. But once again, this is where I can do a lot of journaling. Sometimes I do this through journaling, this whole exercise. I'll be writing it down and then I'll also stop and say, hey, let me pause there. One tool that I've used, but closely related or related to that, I would also step into looking at my parts and saying, there's a part of me that is showing up and providing me with these thoughts that are intrusive. Can I slow down? And I can say, hey, part, what is it that you're trying to tell me? Baat, what is it that you're trying to help me with right here? Because you're showing up, there must be a reason. What is it that I need to know? And I do this through journaling, just really slowing down. And trying to do this inner work of connecting with myself rather than avoiding, pushing away, and trying to not experience whatever it is that I'm experiencing. And usually when I'm doing that work, that's where I might have like a stroke of clarity, but I usually find that my system and my body start to settle when I'm in that space rather than the frantic anxiousness of, no, I don't want this, go away. I can't, this isn't convenient right now.

I think there's another side of this. So the one is to push it away, but one is where the brain gets so hijacked that you don't even realize you've been flooded. And so it's not that you're pushing it away, you're just so into the experience that your brain, your body is overwhelmed. And that's where you're more likely to say and do things that maybe you later regret because of the brain being overwhelmed and flooded. I'm so hurt and I'm so angry. And that's usually where I see people act in ways that are not congruent with who they really are. They know they're better, and yet their emotions have taken over. And so that's the other part of it is when you get to that point of being flooded, hijacked, whatever term we prefer to use there, when you're in that space, the gift of what you just described is being able to sit and say, what's actually happening here?

Because these are reactive behaviors. I'm reacting to something.

It's a threat. It's a fear. I feel like I have to protect or defend myself. And so when I lash out verbally, physically, when I do that, that's a defensive mechanism. And when we understand that, it's like, oh, this is what I'm wanting to do. Great time to go for a walk. Great time to take a timeout. So you're not doing or saying things that you later regret because that too feels out of control, brings on its own version of shame. Makes you feel like there's something wrong with you. And that's not what we want you to experience. We want you to feel like you are in control. And so when these thoughts come, we're not ignoring them. We're not avoiding them. We're learning to observe them. That's really what you're describing there is learning to sit back and stop instead of pushing it. Don't think about it. For maybe 90 seconds, I'm sitting with this thought and say, what is it that I'm experiencing? What am I experiencing physically? Oh, that's how I'm feeling. I'm feeling disgust. I'm feeling— there's that trigger, and everything that runs through my mind are all the memories. That's normal. I normally have these thoughts. They come through in my mind. What's my body experiencing right now? And you're just really just trying to slow this process down. Attuning to yourself would be the way we would describe that, and self-attunement is part of this process of reclaiming you. If you're misattuned to self, you're going to feel like you're going to be drifting with the wind. If the wind comes up, you're going to end up somewhere else. And that's hard. All right, Marianne, final thoughts that you have today?

My final thoughts are coming back again to that self-compassion where I usually always want to end. But if you are having intrusive thoughts, usually in my experience and most of my clients' experience, But usually with time they start to calm.

Hmm.

And with PTSD, they may show up, but usually my clients get to a point where they have enough tools under their belt where they're able to manage them. They're able to say, oh, I'm having an intrusive thought. Well, I've got some things I've been working on that are in my tool belt. If you're newly betrayed, it makes sense that you'd be reactive. I wanna make sure we're not shaming, uh, or there's no judgment or criticism here. This is what we see in our offices, and usually fresh betrayal, usually there's a lot of reactive responses to things. And so coming to that with some self-compassion, of course it makes sense that you've been responding this way. Your whole world has just been shattered. Your whole reality has been shattered, and you don't have a blueprint or a map for this. You don't know how to do this. And your body's reacting in ways that seem abnormal, surprising, shocking. You're acting against your values, and there's some horror and chagrin with that as well. And that's really normal. And learning the tools— these are tools that we've been talking about today that hopefully you will begin to utilize and seek out and figure out for you what works the best. Because not every tool works for every person. And so I think for every person, you've got to figure out, for me, what is the best tool that I have that I can come to? It's going to help me figure this out. And just know that there's a lot of hope here and you'll get through it. I'm grateful for our listeners and viewers for joining us. And I hope if this has been helpful, please share it, please like it. Please send us your questions. We always just want to be helpful.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I have a couple final thoughts. If you're the betraying spouse and your spouse is, you know, why can't I get over this affair? Why can't I get over this sexual behavior? Why can't I move on? I would say if you can understand a process here, you may think, well, maybe in a year or maybe in 2 years, there might be triggers for years. It's how we respond in those moments that can actually help our partner regulate. And then if I'm the betrayed, learning how to regulate— we've given you some basic tools today, but if you feel stuck, please go talk with a therapist. There, there are so many practical resources that you can help you through this process. The more information you have, I honestly believe the more information people have, They're like, I understand. And when they understand, they don't feel like they're going crazy. And when they don't feel like going crazy, then they can start to apply the concepts. But learning to apply them is empowering. Acting out in ways that you feel out of control, that's not empowering. So I'm talking about reclaiming that part of you that feels like it was lost in the betrayal. And that internal confidence, like, I know how to respond here. And when the trigger hits, these are the things that I know work for me. When you have those skills, you're more confident. And then what's interesting is you create more— I'm going to say more effective boundaries because you feel more in control. When you don't feel in control, you're less likely to feel like you can create boundaries for self and in your relationship. And that's a whole different topic we could talk about another day, Marianne. Go ahead.

What you said, I think is so important, Dr. Skinner. I just wanna deepen before we close up, and that's if you're experiencing this, this is trauma, this is a trauma response, and it's really important that you find somebody who is adequately trained who can help you with this. Because I know I said oftentimes triggers can slow down, and my foundational context of that comment usually is when you're working with a therapist, when you're working through your trauma. Usually trauma isn't just worked out through talking. Usually if you're experiencing a lot of rumination, a lot of intrusive thoughts, and you're struggling to manage it on your own, please seek out help.

Yeah.

There's some really great tools like EMDR or Accelerated Resolution Therapy, ART. There are some really great tools And having a therapist help you work through understanding your parts, talking to your parts, getting to know them, helps you to understand yourself. And so taking the investment of saying, I need some help to figure out how to utilize these tools from somebody who specializes in them and is properly trained in them, can help you so that you put those tools into your backpack that you can carry them with you, but you won't just naturally have them. But all along you need, you might need help finding your way through.

And those tools and those resources, those are the things that are gonna empower you so you don't feel like you're flying solo. My final thought here is this is a process where you continually learn, and as you learn, you get more empowered. Again, it's not gonna be one, one of these things. It's gonna be putting 'em together. And we talked to B about how a spouse can help. And how you can help yourself, both of those combined. Let's say you also have group support. Let's say we add that to this. And so, you know, I talked previously about recovery capital for the person acting out. We're talking about recovery capital for the betrayed partner. So they have more resources in those moments. They know where to turn. That's our invitation for you today to our listeners. We thank you for being with us. May you be blessed in your healing and recovery journey.

Thank you.