Why Do I Still Feel Stuck? Understanding the Hidden Barriers to Healing After Betrayal (Episode #127)

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Miklas. Marianne, how are you doing today?

I'm doing great, Dr. Skinner, but you look like you're in another location today.

You know, I am, I happen to be in Hawaii as I have a conference that I'm gonna be at tomorrow. And so I've been blessed to be here in Hawaii, but I can tell you, taking a short break to do this podcast. To our listeners, we're, we're grateful for you guys. And if you have questions, we wanna make sure that you ask us questions, info@humanintimacy.com. And Marianne, today's topic, we often get questions from betrayed partners. And they typically go something like this, like, why can't I move on? Why do I always feel stuck? Like I'm not moving anywhere. I've been in groups, I've been doing lots of different things, reading books, listening to podcasts, doing all these things. Why do I feel just stuck? Your initial thoughts, Marianne?

Well, I think this is a normal part of the process of betrayal. And one of the things we've often talked about is betrayed partners often binge. They often are so hungry for, oh, there's a name for this and there are resources for this. And I want to learn everything that I can about this because I want to fix it and I want to move on. I want to get out of this. And so I'm reading, I'm listening, I'm learning. And oftentimes it feels like they're taking off like a rocket and there might even be frustration because partner's not moving quite as fast. And so there might be a imbalance of speed initially. And so that can contribute to that. So my initial thoughts are just starting with that initial one. It's normal. It's a normal part of the process and just recognizing the imbalance of speed that we often see.

You know, and interesting, the person who is acting out, maybe for the first time they've disclosed, they finally feel like they're coming clean, maybe some relief there that they maybe not have experienced because of you know, all the years or lies, manipulation. So in some sense there's a freedom there. And so they may feel like they're taking off and all of a sudden feeling more calm or calmer. And then we have the other part of this is the betrayed partner, as you said, you know, getting all this information. Sometimes it's binging, like I gotta get this and gotta get this. And I listen to all these things. And what I still wonder about Marianne is the ability to step back And I look at two specific things. One, usually we have the PTSD symptoms that continue to manifest on and off, sometimes for months and months after betrayal. And I might even add it for a few years, some of the symptoms, although I would say that the people that I've seen consistently making progress, I see those PTSD symptoms like nightmares go down. Maybe triggers aren't as intense as they used to be. And the need to monitor a spouse's behavior is usually lessened. Over time. So I see that there's not stuck in the PTSD symptoms, if I, if I could say that, but I think the stuck really boils down to why do I still have triggers? I still have these images or these things that come into my mind that I just, I don't know what to do with them.

You know, Dr. Skinner, I'm, I'm gonna be really personal here. I've done a lot of personal work in, in my own journey. And last night, something in my relationship came up that was surprising, and I can talk about it. I can share it with my partner, but we were talking about some specific things and I was like, oh, yuck. No, we hit a pocket of pain for me that it's like, oh, here's some words that I've never really talked about with you. Here's some things that. There's a pocket of pain here. It came up. And so I, I want to also acknowledge that this journey continues and, you know, as we evolve, there still are some things that will show up. And I think that's any relationship as well. I think as relationships go on, we learn how to talk about the things from the past, whether it's the betrayal or whether it's something that happened earlier on in our relationship that Hey, there's that thing that I never talked about that was painful.

I think the most effective way to look at this is healing is a journey, not an event. It takes time. And over time, it's almost like when these experiences like you just described happen, it's a learning opportunity. It's not like something's wrong with me. Why can't I get over this? Why do I feel— still feel stuck? I think that is a much better mindset of these things are good. We're going to bump into them. And truth is, if it was, if you guys weren't working on recovery and healing from this, you're still going to bump into things in each other's lives that feel off or off-kilter. Something doesn't quite feel right. It may not be related to betrayal at all. It's just anger or frustration, or maybe you're tired and exhausted and spent money that you shouldn't have spent and didn't tell your spouse. Just all kinds of possibilities. And so Marianne, I think that what we learn in every relationship is how we deal with those kinds of situations.

Right. Because last night I sat there and said, hmm, I could avoid this. I could bury it. I could ignore it. Or I can step into some vulnerability and say, ooh, hey, I've got some emotions about this. And let me share them and let's have a mature conversation. Let me feel the emotions and let me go there.

And that speaks to a maturing relationship, right? When I can't talk about those things, when I keep them bottled up, let's just say you'd gone down that path. I don't want to create any problems. I know we've talked about all this stuff in the past. And so you bury it. What's the outcome? Resentment, frustration. Something happening inside of you, physical stress manifesting itself in some other way. It doesn't do well to us to ignore, but not to do it in a critical or criticizing way. It's just simply understanding that I was triggered. And now with that trigger, we have a chance as a couple now to respond to it because you brought it into the open.

Right.

And the difference there is you have an opportunity. I call it a growth opportunity in the relationship.

Right. I wanna take that back to our original question though. We often see betrayed partners that get stuck. Hmm. And because this is a something that I see often with my, with my clients who will say, I feel like I'm just so stuck. When do I get out of this? When does this change? When do I move out of here? And, and I think I really want us to speak to that here. I'd love to give our listeners a little bit of a roadmap for this. So as we started out saying, yes, it's really valid that you might feel stuck. And in my opinion, part of that being stuck often happens when there hasn't been a full therapeutic disclosure. If you don't have all of the information, it makes sense that you feel stuck. What do you want to add to that?

You know, Marianne, as you described that, it's like without all the information, And I say all the information, some people don't need all the information. They have enough details where they can, their mind can say, okay, I understand the depth of what's occurred. I don't need all of it. But, but it also goes to the concept that we've talked about in the past. Last week we talked about differentiation and not taking on my spouse's behaviors and letting it unduly influence me. And I think that fits with something that we didn't talk as much about, the concept of locus of control. The reality that I can't control another person's behavior. And the sooner I recognize that, actually, the more freeing that is. I think people stay stuck in, at least in some ways, where they believe that they can influence their partner relapsing or not relapsing. I think that's one of the most common mistakes that I see is people will be very hypervigilant because they think that if I monitor this, that I can somehow prevent my spouse from acting out. It just doesn't work that way. If your spouse is gonna act out, they will find a way. I remember talking to a parent, and this is many years ago, and I think as parents, they were trying to protect their child in, in as many ways as possible. But so they'd take away the cords to certain electronic devices at night, and that child was just brilliant. Found a cord, went and bought a cord and hooked up the cord, and parents found that. So they found a way to, you know, change the router. Child smart enough found a way around the old router. It just, everything that the parents tried, it's like it didn't, it didn't prevent the child. You know, at the end of the day, it needs to be internally changed, not externally changed. And the parents trying to protect their children, which I think we should do, but we have to recognize that if a person's going to act out, there's nothing we can do to stop them.

Right. So I think there's a couple of myths in this space that I'd like to identify. So that one that you just identified, The myth of I can control or influence or impact whether or not my spouse act or my partner acts out. I think that's, that's one of the myths. I think a second myth related to that is that I'm to blame or my value or my worth or my attractiveness has anything to do or influences my spouse or my partner.

If I was prettier, if I was XYZ, then they will not do this. I can't tell you how many people I've seen have body changes, a variety of them, trying to keep up with, with certain things that they imagine their spouse doing or their spouse did. Marian, that's another great point that just hurts to hear when I hear stories like that. It's like, you don't need to do that. You're already enough.

Right. So those are two really big, I think, myths that show up in this stuck space. And I think Also in this stuck space, when we might be waiting for disclosure, I think it's really important. You talked about that locus of control, and I do think this is a space where boundaries become so important. And, and as you said, I don't have control over what my partner does. And so many times I hear my clients say, well, my boundary is that my partner has to do this. And I, and I say, no, that's not a boundary. That, that's a rule or that's a commandment you're giving them. It goes back to my boundary is if my partner does this, this is what I'll do to take care of myself. My boundary is my taking care of me. And I think the self-care and learning to take care of myself and learning to say, I'm not okay with that behavior. And this is what I do. If that behavior occurs, I think that's a really important part of helping move myself through that stuckness.

Again, what you just described is what we talked about last week. This differentiated self is like, look, I understand my values. I understand how I'm gonna show up, how I'm gonna be, and, and these are my boundaries. This is how I'm gonna choose to live life. And it doesn't mean I don't love you. It doesn't mean I don't care about you. It doesn't mean any of that. It simply means that this is the kind of a relationship that I want to be in. And there's certain things that I can't continue to tolerate or accept because that's not the kind of life that I want. In our relationship. So I think that that's part of it. And then if I could extend that just one small piece there, when a person takes that and acts those boundaries or acts consistent with their values, something else happens inside of them, an internal confidence. And so no longer are they waiting for their spouse to change. It's like, no, these are the changes I'm making. And that to me is where I really see the healing process accelerating, when I am taking that part of my life and saying No, this is, this is me and this is how I'm gonna show up. This is how I'm gonna be. And I don't know how that fits with our marriage. We're gonna have to see, but there's a confidence there that shows up.

And I would say, I think couched in part of that is also often some trauma work. So oftentimes my clients will do some trauma work while they're waiting or preparing for the disclosure. So they're working on the boundaries, they're working on some trauma work, they're working on that differentiation. So they're, they're not really stuck per se, but they are doing a lot of their own work preparing for that disclosure. Because when we come to that disclosure place, this is where, for me, I see my clients, I see them really move into a different maybe level of work where they are beginning to put together their trauma narrative. They're putting together, now I have the parts and pieces of my puzzle. I'm putting together my story because now I have more information and things can make sense. And what I find is that when my clients put together their story, they put it out in writing. We help them get the language so they're not blaming, they're not shaming, and they're using so much, I feel, I felt, I look in the mirror.

Naked.

This is what I see and this is how I feel. And they get to that very deep, vulnerable language, and they're really deep into really describing their experience and understanding their own experience and finding the words for that. That is where the healing really, really takes place. And we can work on it, they can write it out. And then when I say Okay, now I'd like for you to read that out loud. The emotions that come up when they read that out loud, there's so much power that comes when we speak that out loud. And then if it's appropriate, when they share that with their partner and when their partner's ready, can hear that and can hold that and respond to that in a really respectful, vulnerable place and just hear their pain and be with them in that pain. That is, in my opinion, that is such a powerful tool for helping them moving through the healing process.

Yeah. And then you just described the space where the spouse holds that. Counter to that is when the spouse can't hold it. And that's when I see a lot of people stay in that same place because you asked me to be vulnerable. I tried being vulnerable. They weren't receptive. They minimized. They didn't hear it. They became into their shame. They went into their shame, I should say. And that situation, Maryanne, is, is where we get really stuck because I'm like, I tried being vulnerable. It's so painful to be that kind of vulnerable and not have it received. And so couples who are doing this kind of work, you have to recognize that both partners have to be in space where if we're gonna ask you to do those kind of exercises, you have to be in the same kind of space, open, receptive, as we've talked about in the Intimacy Repair Method. You have to learn how to be compassionate in those moments and really emphasize not going into the shame. Because if you're in there, that space, then the narrative doesn't go well. The story you hear, you feel like I'm bad. I'm a bad person. And so that doesn't work. So we have to, again, we're doing individual work and we're doing couples work to get unstuck here. And if a spouse can't hold that, then you have to recognize that the relationship may be stuck. That does not mean you have to be stuck.

Right. And I would just add to that, that is where your therapist is so helpful and your support groups are going to be so, so helpful. I don't know how many times my clients have said, you know, before I went in to share my impact letter with my spouse or my partner, I reached out to my support group. I reached out to my sponsor. I reached out to my friends and maybe it went well, maybe it didn't, but they talked to people beforehand. They talked to people afterwards or beforehand. They'd say, hey guys, on Thursday, this is gonna happen. Can somebody be available to talk with me afterwards? Or I reached out to these people afterwards. And, and so if my partner can't be there, okay, that's okay. They may or may not be able to be there and they can't hold it, but I've got other people who can.

And what you're describing there is sometimes it's a tribe of people and it takes a little bit of time for spouses to get online, so to speak. So we're speaking the same language. And I think it's important just because your spouse may not be online now, it doesn't mean they can't be. There's a skill that they have to learn. There are things that they have to learn how to do so they can stay present with your pain. So I, again, stuck individually, stuck relationally. We need to separate those out. And if you feel like you're stuck individually, does that mean you're having nightmares, flashbacks? You're internalizing it. I'm a bad person. Something's wrong with me. Anxious racing mind, those PTSD symptoms, which if, again, if you feel like you're not moving and progressing through those, please talk with a professional therapist who understands how to deal with betrayal trauma and the PTSD symptoms. Because those symptoms, that means I feel stuck. I'm not moving from those. Yes. Really reach out for support there. If you've worked through some of the PTSD symptoms, you guys might need couples work doing that disclosure process. If you're still not getting through some of those things and then extending that, if you've done the disclosure process, you're not experiencing the PTSD symptoms and you still feel like you need something, then I would ask the question, what is it that I'm lacking? What is missing in my healing? And I would journal about that. I would take some time, Marianne. And if you're my client, I'd say, what is it that I still feel like I'm missing? In fact, I recently did this with a group I'm running, said, okay, look, let's pause right here. We've been doing this group for a while. I want you to evaluate where you're at and what you still need in your healing journey. It needs a voice and we still need to evaluate it, understand it, and then we need to create some strategies to help move through that. And that's where we're at right now in this group is trying to help them take additional steps.

If I can just add one maybe asterisk to what you shared. While you may find a certified sex addiction therapist or a certified partner trauma therapist, I think it's also really important to find one that does Accelerated Resolution Therapy, that does EMDR, that is really trained in some type of trauma modality. That uses Internal Family Systems, that has some, some additional trainings and tools so that they can help you work through those trauma parts. Because if we're talking about doing like working with those PTSD symptoms, you want your therapist to have the tools that, so that they can really help you work through them.

Yeah. Great point. Marianne, as we get ready to close up today, do you have any specific things that you'd say if you feel stuck, Finish this sentence, MaryAnn.

If you feel stuck, you're normal. It's a normal part of this process. You're not alone. I have so much compassion for you and, and there's a lot of hope for you. Please don't be disheartened and please reach out. Please apply some of the tools, some of the things that We've talked about today, and please give yourself kindness, space, and compassion because this isn't a race. You didn't deserve this. You didn't choose this. And one of the things that I've learned is that it is so important to trust the process that you're in. The more that I've tried to push something faster or make something go according to a timeline. I've learned it doesn't usually work that way. And so trust the pace, trust the place that you're in, and be kind to yourself.

And I would add, kind of adding on to what you've said in a different way, maybe leave out the judgment of your pace. I should be further ahead. Something's wrong with me. If we can leave out the judgment and say, I'm here in a space this time, right now, this is what I'm experiencing. So concept number one, I'm I can acknowledge I'm here. So concept number 1, let's leave out the judgment if we can. Number 2, get some self-awareness. Like, what information am I missing? Like, are there things that I still feel like I need more of? More information? Is it that I need to do something in difficult moments? I need a skill that helps me through the triggers? And then if I could add a third part to that, and this is more of just an instinctive, as we've talked in the past, just a feeling internally. When you start feeling maybe more joy, it's because you might be looking. Like Marianne, I've intentionally in here in Hawaii, we went up into the mountains and went on a beautiful hike, beautiful, beautiful Moana Falls. And the hike, it rains every day there almost. And so it's muddy and it's, but getting there is absolutely a beautiful hike. I think, you know, I wonder how many people come up here and just pause and see the beauty. And one of the things that just always stands out to me is, are we in such a rush that we aren't taking time to see what's around us? Are we missing the opportunities? And so if I could say, if you feel stuck, go find something that you have enjoyed in the past and do it. I don't care if it's a hike, a bike ride, if you like to swim, if it's something that you've done in the past that you've really enjoyed, do it and see what happens to your energy. Sometimes, as I learned from Dr. Joseph Ledoux, he talked about how after 9/11, a lot of people froze. And so they sat and watched the TV screen over and over and over again, and they watched those planes flying and they felt completely helpless. He said. And then he said, what we discovered is, is if people metaphorically, much like our study with the rats, he said, we found that if they would just take small action steps, if they would do certain things, they wouldn't feel so stuck. And he said metaphorically, if we could get off the couch, turn off the television, and metaphorically get on with parts of our life. And he wasn't trying to say that we ignore it. He's simply saying that there's parts of our life that may have been neglected because of this traumatic event. And I think that's the critical transition, Marianne, is being able to find things that you've done or would like to do that maybe you're not doing. A simple thing, but it's not simple because I find many people struggle with it. Those are some of my suggestions today.

I think those— I really resound with those, Dr. Skinner. And just as we wrap up, once again, just my own personal journey is This is some, this is a journey I've been on for almost 30 years. And I share that here just because it is a journey and there are ups and downs and there's constant growth and there's constant learning and it's not over. It won't be over until I'm done and until I'm dead. And I think that's for everyone who's been betrayed or who has betrayed, that we are learning and growing and our relationships are evolving. And we are learning how to, how to progress, how to communicate, how to be more relational and how to heal.

Awesome. All right. Thank you to our listeners for being with us. You've been listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Please share this podcast with friends, others who you think would benefit from listening. We appreciate your time and thank you, Marianne.

Thanks, Dr. Skinner.

And laugh when you laugh. Something's around you. It's like you're shining, you're starring.