Words That Shape Us: Rethinking the Language We Use in Relationships (Episode #69)

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Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh something surround welcome to.

The human intimacy podcast, Dr. Kevin Skinner. Marianne, the days are getting longer, the sun is up, it's beautiful. And guess what, Marianne, we are not talking about the weather today. We're actually going to be talking about the language we use. So kind of a fun intro. The language we use in our relationships. Because what we, I find, Marianne, is the things that we say. If we really break it down, I'm not sure we're actually hearing what's being said or we don't understand it. Today I was sitting with a client, Marianne, and I used the word gaslighting and the client said, well, what does that mean? And I didn't, wasn't saying in the context I'm saying, this is a word that's commonly used because in that situation he was g gaslit by a family member, his partner, but by a family member and he, because he was describing a situation where he was told, no, that really didn't happen, when indeed it did happen. So wait, you didn't have that experience, right? That, that didn't really happen? No, it did happen. So gaslighting is just a starting point of what do we mean?

I'm sorry to our listeners because this is silly, but I do a lot of free association here. And the first thing that comes to my mind is I do not think that word means what you think it means. And I think that's really applicable here in that there are so many times that I might have a context or an understanding of what a word means. For me, I think a word might be and it might not be quite right. I remember years ago we were at a Family gathering. And my nephew said, grotesque. And we were like, what? What is that word? And he said, yeah, that's really grotesque. And we're like, can you spell that word? No, it was grotesque. But he'd only read the word, never heard it, he'd never heard it pronounced. And so he read it grotesque. And. And I think, like, this is a simple example, but I think it's really pertinent because we may read a word or we may have heard a word and we may apply it or use it in a way, or we may be sitting in our therapist's office and they say, gaslight. And we're like, I don't know what they're talking about. Okay, I'll just nod my head because I don't want to ask. And so there's a lot of context and meaning that we often miss or don't have or don't know.

That reminds me, I had a 9th grade math teacher and I didn't understand a lot of math at the time. I was behind, and I had a fear of going up and asking for clarification. And there's a host of reasons for that, but my fear prevented me from actually learning math. And. And then there was consequences all the way up into college because of that unwillingness to let down my pride and go ask for help.

Which makes sense for a 14 or 15 year old boy to go up and say, I don't know how to do this. You don't want to feel dumb in front of your friends. Or there's a lot of social, cultural implications there, but it ripples through is what I'm hearing you say.

And I think as therapists, we use words because we're so used to them that I think unfortunately, we might be speaking a language and assuming our clients understand that language.

Yeah, I had that happen this week. I had a client come to me and say, I've been listening to your podcast and you were talking about your third grade kicker. And I said, you've been talking about parts for a long time. I didn't know what you were talking about. And that's been such a common part of the language that I use with my clients. And it makes sense to me. I know what it is. I have the context. And I forget sometimes that my client may not have that context. I may be talking about something that's just a whole nother world to them.

All right, so today we're going to define some of these words based upon our common understanding of them. And maybe our listeners will have a different Understanding of some of these words whole. Hopefully we can clarify some of these words and, and put a little bit of meat on them so there's more understanding or vernacular understood. How about that?

That sounds awesome. And I'm just going to tell listeners to buckle up because you and I, Dr. Skinner, may have some very different definitions for some different applications of the words that we talk about as well. So.

All right, so let's start with the first one. How would you define gaslighting?

I would define gaslighting as something that I know to be that someone tells me that it is not, which makes me. Which causes me to doubt myself. And I know that the clinical or I don't know if gaslighting is a clinical term. It's a word that we've adopted. It comes from a very old black and white movie where the main character was a rich heiress and a man married her because he wanted her fortune and basically went through the house to another wing of the house and would flicker the lamps that were gas. Gas lamps to make them flicker. And then he'd say, she'd say, what's going on? I just saw the lamps all turn off and flicker. And he'd say, no, you're crazy. Nobody else saw that and employed the servants to help with that. And so she thought she was crazy. Sometimes we say crazy making as well. So I look at gaslighting as something that I'm looking outside saying the sky is blue and somebody's like, no, it's not. What are you talking about? What? That self questioning.

And so you listed a couple things. One is denial of facts, right? That's just didn't happen. And the other is blaming. Well, I wouldn't have done this if you would finish that off. So denial of facts and blaming, two common elements associated with gaslighting.

But I don't think it always has. Does it always have? I don't see it always as the blaming part because it might be a betrayed partner saying like something fells off. And maybe that is the blame. Maybe this is me talking myself around. Something must be off.

Something must be wrong with you.

There it is.

Something must be wrong with you. Right, so you didn't see that. That. Right. I mean, you're seeing things or you're making that up. That's imaginary. So. So denial and blame. In fact, when I first wrote my assessment for assessing for PTSD symptoms, I also looked at like, what are the common stories that I'm hearing from my clients. And so I wrote at the time what was called the denial and blame scale. I had no idea. I'd never heard the term gaslighting. This is back like 2006, 2007. So I wrote the scale that I now look at it as the gaslighting scale.

And I use that scale, Dr. Skinner, when I work with my clients and they take the assessment. Those are the first two that I look at because that's going to tell me the level of psychological damage that my client has had that they've experienced.

So the other part of it is minimizing. When we really look at gaslighting, there's often a minimization. It wasn't bad. Or. So we minimize it. I wasn't that angry or only this.

And that really creates that self doubt for me as the receiver. Oh, maybe I'm making too big of a deal of this. Can I. Can I add one more element to this as well? And please, if, if you agree with me on this, but I think that there's an element that we didn't talk about yet, that it's intentional. I intentionally choose to lie to you or to create a different reality for you. It is very intentional. It's not usually just like, oh, I wasn't even thinking about it. It's. It's like my intent is to hide and deceive and to be dishonest here.

And, and just to close with this off. I mean, so we're going into gaslighting and we'll have multiple terms we're going to talk about today. But if, if an individual has been gaslit or if a couple. There's been gaslighting in the relationship, the best way for healing is to own it, acknowledge it, and then do what you can to repair. And, and when couples do that, that's where I see the fastest acceleration of healing is when they address the gaslighting. It stops and it is acknowledged. I was lying, I was deceptive. I was blaming. Those are important things that we look at in the healing process. If it's been occurring.

And I don't want to minimize that healing process, but I also want to speak to that other side of that. I see the most damage occur when someone says, here's what I think. Here's what I saw, here's what I experienced. And they are told, no, that's not reality. What's wrong with you? And then that. That person questions themselves. They question their reality. Now I can't even trust myself. I can't trust my gut. That is where the damage really, really comes.

So. And it's sustained. If I look at the research. It's one of the leading indicators of PTSD symptoms.

Yeah.

Which means that we have to address it if an individual or couples are going to heal. Right. Because I can't act that way towards another person and have healthy relationships.

And I can't heal in that relationship where I can't even figure out where my footing is for my reality because I can't trust myself and I can't trust my partner. So who do I trust? And that does lead into, I can't trust anybody because I can't even trust myself. Yeah.

All right, so what's your next word?

Oh, you're catching me off guard. Well, this week somebody was talking about parts. So I, I, one of my clients said, I don't know what you were talking about with parts. So maybe if we say parts. Dr. Skinner, what do you mean when that term comes up?

So you have two specific ones. Some people think of it as a sexual thing. Right. Sexual parts.

Oh, okay, sure.

Right. And then there's the, the what we learn in internal family systems. Ifs where they talk about different parts of us, different mindsets, different emotions, thoughts, experiences. There's a whole language around parts in the internal family systems approach. Right. You've got a firefighter and you have a whole host of other names that are, that are there. Protector. And just as an example. So that's how I see it as a professional. But if I'm a listener. What do you mean by parts?

Yeah, I remember Jenna Rearsma. I'm not sure if I'm saying her last name right, but I remember she did a, a little video, an online course or something on parts on her internal family systems. And she talked about, there's a part of me that wants to sit on the couch and eat Oreos. And there's a part of me that says I should probably go to the gym. And parts work really evolved and came because Richard Schwartz was working with clients, and he kept hearing them talk about, well, there's a part of me that this and this is normal language that we all use, but we don't always recognize. Oh. Like we don't bring it into this is I have different parts of me that are running the show at different times.

Really important here because I don't know one of my favorite cartoon movies, Emperor's New Groove. Right. And I don't the older movie, but again, it's fun. But there's this part of the show where you have an angel and a devil on different shoulders, and they're fighting or telling this person what to do? Maybe you call it a sub part of us. Right, Sub. Sub system inside of all of us. And we all have different voices. You should do this. Don't do this. So where are these voices? There are different parts of us that manifest at different times based upon our experiences. And so part of the question is, who am I listening to? Which voices, Internal sub voices am I listening to?

And I think it's. As we talk about this concept, there's two points that I want to bring out with this. It's important to realize oftentimes we have a part like I've talked about my third grade kicker part that shows up to protect me and take care of me. And that third grade kicker part had some trauma, it had some needs that it, that part shows up to be fulfill and meet. And the second part of the. We're using that word parts all over the place here.

But I'll edit them out. No, just kidding.

Another thing to consider with this. I had a client who recently was talking about being betrayed by multiple people in their, in their relationship. And it was so focused on them. And we had a really long conversation about usually when we are acting out sexually or in an addiction, if we're acting out in a certain way or lots of different ways, it's usually a part that's trying to get a need met. Yeah, Younger part. But there's. There's usually a need that's trying to be met there. And so many times my betrayed partners think it's because I wasn't pretty enough, I wasn't thin enough, I wasn't fun enough, I was too busy with the kids. Like they really internalize it. My partner cheated because I wasn't enough. And in reality, that's not usually the case. The reality is usually there was a part like my third grade kicker that showed up to address a need. Whether it's self medication or numbing or soothing or whatever it is, there's a litany of, of things that it could be. But it has nothing to do with the betrayed partner. We don't see our partner's parts.

Right. And that's one of the interesting conversation is again, to our listeners, this may sound odd, but we all have different parts, different elements of us. Again, you might call it sub personalities. I have a social personality. Maybe I want to be interacting with everybody. And there's another part of me that's like I just need to be in the corner and I just need a break from all these, all these voices. And so there's different parts of Me, maybe I need some attention, and maybe I just need a quiet time. And I think all of us have different sub personalities, and I think they're more pronounced in trauma and addiction, because when we stop and we reflect, there's different elements of those sub personalities. Like, we'll often hear people say, that's the addict. Me. Right. So we hear people say that, okay, the addict. You. What other parts are there? What other voices are there? And. And when we put it in that context, really what that person's saying is, when I was acting out, it felt like something took over. That sub personality took over. And that's what. That's. I think that what that description means.

Yeah. I like to look at them as survival. They're.

They're survival strategies.

Yeah. Like survival skills. Like, when I feel out of control, I might say this isn't me specifically, but for an example, when I feel out of control or like I'm powerless or like I can't depend on my partner, I put on my. I'm taking over. I'm taking control. I've got to do it all. Roll. And so I get really busy, and I'm very rigid, and that might be a part of me that shows up. It's usually a trauma response when we want to control, and it's saying everything else is chaotic. So here I go.

So go rescue yourself. Rescue yourself away from this uncomfortable feeling that you don't want to feel.

Yeah. Make sure you manage everything so that nothing can hurt you. Yeah. And that's a part that shows up to keep us safe and help us survive.

All right, so are we ready to move on to the next word? Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna throw one out there for everybody. Addiction. When you hear that, what does that mean to you? Marianne?

You know, the first thing that comes to my mind? This is. I feel like we're playing free association here a little bit.

Yeah. Fun.

The first thing that comes to my mind, I am a really big fan of Brene Brown, and she talks about how we are the most addicted, obese, sick society that we've ever had.

That's such a lovely thought.

It's not, but that's. When you say addiction, that's what I think of. I think of numbing. I think of medicating. I think there's so many ways I hear young kids say, oh, I'm addicted to that. I hear people say, I'm addicted to chocolate. It's a word that's used so many ways, days, and in so many areas. It's socially acceptable. And then other ways we talk about alcohol and there's, there's some stigma there or drugs and there's some stigma there and there's some pain there. And then we talk about sexual addiction, pornography addiction, sexual acting out behaviors. And my clients like, oh, we can't even like that word. It carries so much shame. And so I, I also think of just like maybe a tiered spectrum when we use that word. What about you?

I, I think the danger of the term and I use it in my books. Treating sexual addiction. A compassionate approach to recovery. Treating pornography addiction primarily because it's the vernacular of. That's how we speak. But even in my book I say, okay, let's define it, right? So if we actually defined addiction, there's some core elements, right. So okay, I'm going to define them based upon what we know as professionals, right. So one is tolerance. I have it at this level. And then I need more. If it were alcohol, I would need more.

So it's progressive.

It's progressive to get the same substance. The other is withdrawals. The other is that I can't recognize how it influences me and others and I'm kind of blind to it. So when we just take those three core elements and then the other part of it, any form of addiction, is that we usually don't see ourselves at a problem.

Oh yeah, yeah. We have a hard time seeing ourselves. Can I add a couple more onto there?

Yeah, yeah.

Because it's interesting, I use a little bit of a different framework. I look at. There's usually a layer of shame. I don't want to talk to my mom about this. I don't want to talk to my priest about it. So there's usually. I'm wanting to hide it, keep it secret. I also usually see once again, that progression that you talked about. And usually I also look at, I tried to stop on my own and I can't stop and. Or I haven't been successful yet and it's impacting my life in a negative way. I'm not going out or I'm not doing things I'm avoiding because of that. So it's impacting me negatively.

Yeah. So the stop is definitely one from a clinical perspective. That's one of the core questions, right. Inability to stop, try to stop and can't. So as we, as we look at it, that's how I define addiction. I go to the, you know, our manuals for. On what addiction is and what it isn't and that's how I do it. But you incorporated shame into there. And I think that's almost always a hidden, secretive behavior frequently leads to shame.

Yeah. People knew they would reject me. I can't let them know. And that. And that, I think, also ties into what you were talking about, like, our inability to really see ourselves. We struggle seeing ourselves clearly. And other people might say, jimmy, I think you might have a problem. It's like, no, no, I'm fine. I've got this under control. I managed this just great. Not a problem. Yeah.

So this concept that you just used, the word control, the loss of control. And again, sometimes it takes a period of time to recognize I am out of control. And as I talk with individuals, when I ask them, what. Why are you in my office? What are the core things I will often hear? It's like, I can't handle it on my own anymore. I feel like it's out of control. So for me, again, I don't like to put a label on anything. Right. Addiction. But I do want to look at the symptoms and the behaviors. Because I've had people come to my office and say, I'm an addict. What does that mean? They give me a definition of what they're experiencing. Their story. I'm like, okay, let's redefine this. You have a problem with this. But if I was to define that as addiction, you probably wouldn't qualify. And other people who like their actions, like, do you think I'm an addict? I'm like, oh, boy. I tell you what, You've got all these criteria, plus some.

Yeah, it's really interesting. Sometimes people are jumping on the bus for addiction, and sometimes people won't even get near it. It's interesting how we. Once again, I think it does come back. Maybe we gaslight ourselves or we're just not willing to see, or we have a hard time seeing clearly, especially because we may have come from a system, a family system or culture where that's the norm. So what are you talking about? This is normal. This is what everybody does.

And I think that is a form of self deception.

Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, so addiction. What's your next word?

You're making me think on my toes. I'm sharing this one because I have a story behind it. So defensiveness.

You're being defensive.

Yeah. Like, let's talk about the triggers with this. I bring this up more because it's maybe more about the context of the words that we use and how we react, like the triggers that we have. And sometimes I have my clients say, what's a trigger? I'M not sure what. What do you mean by a trigger?

You just added another word we got to talk about now. Triggers.

I'm using trigger related to defensiveness. At least here. I was meeting with a client's spouse who I'd never met before, just to kind of get a sense of their system, and they were kind of hostile with me, and I was really surprised. I was like, wow, what's going on here? And I said, it seems like you're kind of defensive. And that was a trigger word for them. But I didn't know. My client told me later on, but it was like the. The full Monty got unloaded on me, and it was just like, holy cow. That word had been used over and over and over with this client. And so anytime they heard that word, they had a huge reaction, because there's a lot of shame that came up with it. And when we are communicating, when we hear what other people say, we get defensive, especially if it feels like there's something wrong with me or I'm lacking or I'm not being understood. And so we want to push, we want to fight, or we want to protect. And so that defensiveness really comes up. And so whatever word it can be, whether it's defensive or another word, we can get really triggered. And then we deer our heels in and want to defend ourselves.

And if I use that word, defend, defensive. You seem defensive. That feels like you're saying, I am. You are. You are. Something.

Something's wrong with you. Yeah. You're not. You're not. Okay.

And if I was to look at that and say, help me understand what you're observing in me, that you're picking up some defensiveness, maybe it's a look, maybe it's a posture, and maybe I remind you of your mom or dad. And so the defensiveness, it could be my tone of voice, it could be my body language defensive, you know, if we're just looking. Right. What does defensive look like?

Sorry. Yeah.

What does it look like? That's. That's the question.

The question. Yeah. What. What does it look like? I think it looks like for me, when I see it. I think it's so important to. To look at, like, our micro expressions. What's happening in our face? What's happening in our body language? Because I think they say 93% of our communication happens without words. And so looking at. Is my body hunched over? Is my body open? Am I like, yes, Dr. Skinner, you're folding your arms right there. That's a good defensive. When we put our Hand right up against our neck. That's a really protective place that I, oh, I need to protect myself. And so our body language, it can be how we put our jaw, it can be our eyes, our heart, frown, facial expressions. You're on phone with this, I can see.

No, I am. And because again, we use words and ideally we would stop and say, help me understand what you mean by that word or that concept. And because I might not even understand it, but I might become defensive. Because you say I'm defensive.

Right. I had a client a couple years ago, we were talking and she said, I just saw contempt on your face. I was like, what? There was no contempt anywhere in my body. But that's what she thought that she read in my face. I was so glad that she had said, identified it.

Right, right.

Yeah. So we can talk about it.

So something about a facial expression. She picked it up. And again, whether you're feeling that or not, facial expressions, body language, big in terms of defensiveness. So again, what does it mean? Lots of possibilities.

Protecting ourselves. Yeah. All right. So if we, if we look at defensiveness, I also really like to look at what defensiveness is not. And you alluded to this a little bit earlier. But if I'm not defensive, like you said, help me understand what you saw. That's a very open, vulnerable space. And empathy is a very non defensive place where, wow, I'm taking maybe responsibility. But I might be saying like, oh, here's how I feel about that. I'm worried that you might have understood or misinterpreted what I meant or intended. That's a soft entry connecting way to address that versus when I get defensive, my voice raises. You might feel defense and I might say loud, harsh words and you might feel attacked. And so you respond by moving back versus that empathy and softness where we move in towards each other.

And even in the language you are being, most of us are going to be. Defend ourselves in that phrase. Yeah, right. Just you are. It doesn't matter how you finish that unless it's you are lovely or you are kind or you're doing a great job listening. Right. I mean, do we hear that? No. But that part of us, when I hear you are. How do you know how I am? And that's my natural response to that. So maybe I am being defensive because all of a sudden I heard you are. So I'm wondering how you're feeling right now.

This feels like a good segue. I want to talk just a little bit about you identified it. There's a Separation. I think that's really important to recognize. I am not my emotion. I am not my. I am not defensive, I am not angry, I'm not happy. I may be feeling that way. I am feeling. This allows me to be many things. But when I say, you are so angry, that is a label that gets stuck. And just like you said, I may, I may not be, but that is not who you are. That is not static who and how you are. And so recognizing our words do matter. And it's tricky because even as we've been talking throughout the session, I've noticed that we've been used some I am and you are. We've used some of this ownership language, which is very common in our culture. But starting to recognize, can I move away from being that. That definition of who I am and shifting it to how I am feeling in this moment or this time of space?

And that's part of what we often refer to as a mature us by being able to identify and own I am feeling, I am experiencing. And if I'm curious, I'm wondering how you're experiencing this, how you're feeling, or what your thoughts may be. And that's really that transition from that communication of defensiveness into a space of something tells me inside that something just happened inside of you. I do that often with clients. It may be tears that all of a sudden there's an emotional expression of some tears or some sadness, or if it's couples therapy, I see one of them shaking their head. It's like, oh, okay, there's not an agreement here, right? We're attuned to people. But I've also found that when we are in a conflict, couples often are hyper aware of their spouses. You use the word micro expressions. They're hyper aware, and they might not even say it. Oh, you're mad.

That's a place to stop and say, hold on a second, it looks like there's something going on right now. It looks like you might be feeling angry. Right now would be a really great way to reflect that. Here's what I'm seeing, here's what I think I'm seeing. And that is where I really think we can step into some reflective listening. Let me describe to you what I think I'm seeing on your face when my client said, looked like I saw some contempt there. Oh, that's some great reflective listening. Want to just make sure, along these same lines, there's just one other part of this communication that I want to make sure we address. And that's not just I am an emotion, like taking away that I am, but taking into an ownership of I feel. Along those same lines, I think it's really important to add in the concept of making oftentimes my clients. Or I'll hear somebody say, that makes me. How does that make you feel? Or you made me feel this way when you didn't take out the trash. You made me feel like I was unimportant. And when we use that made or makes me word for me, that's a red flag. I always, like, catch that with my clients because I want to make sure, saying, hold on a second. I may have felt that way, but their action didn't make me feel that way. It might have been a trigger from something else. It might have been a thought. It might have been one of those angels on my shoulders, an inner voice or something. But nothing makes me feel. My emotions are signals giving me information, and I might have felt something. But I am not an object, necessarily, that's being acted upon by you, the things that you do. So it's owning and saying, I felt rather than you made me feel, because that's blaming and shaming language.

Or I am feeling. I am experiencing this internal. This internal anger. And that's in our exchange here. I am extremely upset. Contrast. You make me so freaking angry. Right. You just tick me off. Right.

And I would contrast that in. With. Right in this moment. I am feeling really upset. It's. It is my ownership of my emotions and my feelings. It's not what you did. It's how I'm feeling and how I'm responding to that.

At some point, we're gonna have to do a podcast on ownership of those emotions. I think that's a very important topic. We'll come back to it another time. All right, I've got two more words. Do you have one anymore?

Oh, let's jump into yours. I've been talking a lot for this.

Triggers.

Yeah, brought up.

I just want to follow up with triggers.

I think that's a good one. Yeah.

So I'm triggered. What does that mean to you?

For me, I have to separate my personal from my clinical therapist mentality here. I think the simple response is, I could be standing in the grocery store grabbing a can of soup or something, and there may be a sight, a sound, a smell, something that causes just big emotions to pop up, and I can have a big reaction. I can be angry, I can be hurt, I can be scared. Whatever it is, something can happen. It might be something that I'm aware of. That I see somebody walking towards me, and my body goes into panic. That would be a trigger, a big emotional reaction. Usually, a trigger is something that I'm not expecting. It usually comes out of the blue, but sometimes it can be an implicit trigger as well, meaning it comes from inside that I have no cognitive. I can't connect. That person just walked around the hall. But suddenly, my body may be having a reaction, and it may or may not make sense, but it's usually highly emotional.

So one of the things you just described there, Dr. Joseph LeDoux did an interview with him many years ago, and he taught a very interesting concept, because typically, we think, okay, here's a trigger, and then we have a thought, and then we have an emotion. And that's historically how we think about it. But he said it's actually inaccurate. We feel before we think. So I'm in the. I don't know. I'm in the wilderness, and I hear a twig pop.

Yeah.

I look up, and there's a bear. I don't think bear first. I feel fear first.

Yeah.

And he says, it's about two times faster that we feel than we think, but we're talking nanoseconds, right? So. So it quickly. Our body's designed to deal with fear first, which means that we can easily be hijacked. People say, why am I so emotional with this? Right. When my logical brain catches up, I have some time to think about what's actually happening. But I could step on that twig, look up, and think it's a bear because of my fear. I look up and, oh, it's just another person.

I remember listening to your interview with Dr. LeDoux, and I remember I was kind of like, going, like, how do I feel about this? And I remember I was driving down the street, and a cat jumped out in front of me, and I hit the brakes, and my stomach dropped. Like, it was just like this. Instantaneous actions that happened. Maybe my stomach dropped first, and I hit the brakes. Before I even had a chance to go, oh, a cat just ran in front of me. My body reacted instantly. I was like, yep. That is absolutely. I had this big drop in my gut. Who. Oh, my heart was racing. So I absolutely agree. Our bodies respond. They're built to respond so quickly to keep us safe.

So. And he found two different neural pathways in the brain and that. And then. So it goes to the fear center of the amygdala, Then it goes to the thinking part of the brain that's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down here. So A trigger to me is what I'm thinking and first what I'm feeling. And we don't describe it. So if I said I was triggered, my best question, the best question you might ask is, what's the trigger? What are you thinking? What are you feeling? Now we're actually asking a deeper question rather than this ambiguous. I've been triggered. I don't even know what that means to you. But we use it in such a loose way that you say, I'm triggered. I'm like, by. By something I did, by a person walking down the street. Again, what's the trigger? I'm feeling. I'm thinking has way more clarity than the ambiguous phrase I'm triggered.

And, you know, I think that's really important that you point that out, Dr. Skinner, because I think what I'm hearing, or at least what I'm hearing you say is we maybe need to add some context when we. When we use the word trigger, because I do come back to. There are the implicit triggers of, I experienced something years before, and my brain encoded it as danger, but. But I can't recall it. It's gone. Like, I just don't have any working memory of it. But my body experienced it, and it's like, I recognize this. Mayday, mayday. Now's the time to panic. And so I may not have a conscious awareness. It may be something that happened before I was even verbal, before I even had words when I was a baby. And so recognizing, I might have to say, I'm feeling really triggered. I'm feeling really overwhelmed with some emotions right now, and I'm not sure why.

So what? You used a word. I want to make sure our listeners understand, since we're talking about language. Right. Implicit versus explicit, the language we use as therapists, an implicit memory is something that you feel and experience but don't have language for. And an explicit memory is you have details so you can describe what occurred. So more often than not, when I talk with clients with especially with elevated levels of anxiety, often they have implicit feelings that they don't know where they're coming from. I feel this, and I don't even know why. Drives me crazy, but I'm feeling it. In contrast, when I have it, when this happens, a trigger occurs. I have details or experience. And when we pause enough, we can actually describe clearly, oh, I am thinking this, and I understand why. But sometimes you won't know why, because it's an implicit memory that literally could be passed down for generations of time.

Yeah, let me add a little Bit more onto that, because as you're talking about that, one of the. I guess one of my approaches to. To working with my clients, especially when we're working with PTSD trauma, is listening to your gut and going back to what we talked about with Dr. LeDoux. Like, our body picks things up and we have implicit memories. So even though my body may be picking up some energy or a micro expression or something that. That's going on that I can't put my finger on and say, something's weird here, but my body might be saying, a little unsettled, something feels off here. And I always go to, I want to trust my gut. I want to trust what my body's telling me. And sometimes I can come back and say, maybe that was a reaction from the past and maybe I need to think through it. But listening to our gut is like, that's how our body is created. It's created to give us information, even though it may not cognitively make sense. We don't have all the puzzle pieces to make sense.

Yeah. And that distinguishment is. Is really important because when we don't have language for some of the things we're feeling or thinking, then sometimes we just do our best to throw something out there. But what does it really mean? I don't know. I just know that I'm experiencing, I'm feeling. So when we pause and we do some self analysis, then I can give again, more definition to what it is that I am experiencing. That's more effective communication.

Yeah, I have. Just because we're on this, I want to throw out two book resources to our listeners. If any of you are readers, they both talk about this in different ways. The first one, I'm currently rereading it, I read it a couple times previously, and I love it, called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. And he's talking about these implicit reactions that we have, the things that we can't put words to, but we just, in the blink of an eye, can say, that's positive or that's not safe. Like these reactions that we have that we can't describe. So that comes from Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, a companion book that I think really goes really well along with. With this is called the Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker. And he talks similarly about how our body is picking things up. It's registering things, and we're not consciously aware of it. And so really that listening to ourselves, trusting ourselves, because our body is designed to give us information, even it knows what's going on, even if we Don't.

All right, my final word for the day.

All right.

Did you have any more, or are we good with this?

You're doing some great ones.

I think we could go on and on. So my final word for today is the word intimacy. That's a great one because we so misunderstand intimacy. What percentage of the time do we think about sex? When I use the word intimacy, I'm going to say it's a very high percentage when I use that word. What did you. What came to your mind?

You know, you and I have talked about this in the past, and I think I'm at a place where that. That isn't the. What's the. The word that we use to. To pretend that it's not the word that we're talking about. There's a clinic. There's a good word for that, but I can't think about it right now while we having a podcast talking about our words. So there's some irony there, but we often use intimacy as a pseudonym for sex if we're talking about it. Oh, well, we were intimate. That's used all of the time. And even I, we've. I've gone to chat GPT and said, hey, what are some. Some good words that will bring people in? Like, that will catch people's attention. Intimacy is one of those high words that people go, ooh, what. What does this mean? And you and I have talked a lot about that. We've got to look at intimacy in different ways, that it doesn't just mean sex. That's not really what we're talking about here.

It is a beautiful word. It is absolutely beautiful when we break it down. So I've got a course teach seven types of intimacy. I mean, it is, for me, it is so beautiful, because when you understand intimacy, first of all, I would say it's into me. See, for intimacy. And that means I. If I'm going to be intimate, that means I have to let people see me see into me. And while that can relate to physical and sexual intimacy, what about emotional intimacy and verbal intimacy? A meaningful conversation or the sharing of emotions? When we start breaking down these different forms of intimacy, Psychological intimacy is a term that I created, a concept based upon core constructs. We'll talk about that another time, too. But when we look at the different forms of intimacy, when we start understanding them and start applying them, the relationship gets rich. But when you think about intimacy only as sex, you're really defining down a word that is beautiful. And that, to me, is the travesty. That when we use that word in almost a slang way, rather than the beauty of what that word means, allowing ourselves to be seen and to see other people, that's intimacy.

And I know you'll talk about this later. I know you've created some tools around this that I think are so incredibly helpful. But as we're talking about this, we. We've talked about not here, but there's, there's a triangle concept and where intimacy is built on these other components that you've talked about, especially, are you there for me? Can I trust you?

Yep.

And when we look at today's hookup culture, our hookup world, sex is the goal, and sex is not intimacy. Making love and seeing each other and being seen into that is intimate. That is seen deeply. And that is where our deepest attachment and bonding. That's where our neurochemicals for bonding and attachment occur. But they don't show up and hook up with. That's not where they're showing up. And so there's a big difference between having sex and feeling connected, feeling seen, feeling heard, feeling understood, feeling like I can trust you and be with you.

Very well said. And if I could add a part to that, you triggered two other words for me that I'm not going to go into today, and it's the words making love. If I could really change our vernacular, making love would be an action that we do every day that's not sexual. In fact, I wrote about three chapters of a book called Making Love and Other Non Sexual Activities.

I think we have a podcast on that back in December of 2024. I think we did. Yeah. It.

For me, it's. Go back and listen to it. But that's, that's me on my soapbox of saying why these certain words we just have destroyed now. Making love is a beautiful thing, but love is so much more than sexual.

Love is so much more than French fries.

Yeah.

Pizza.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, Marianne, final thoughts. Today we've been talking about words and our communication. Your final thoughts?

My final thoughts. This is. This has been a fun podcast. Explore and say, where does this go? How do we associate this? What do you see? But I think my final thoughts would be to notice to our listeners, I invite you to notice the words that you use. You know, when we. I was little, at least, you know, there was the sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you. That's what I was taught. And the reality is, is words can bring so much pain and devastation. And if we. The more that we can slow ourselves down and allow ourselves to be seen or to even reflect back. As we've been talking today about these wor, we've also been talking about how we relate with these words, how we can see what we see with our eyes, what we feel with our bodies. We're all a full system. We're not just our brain or our. Our genitalia or our body. We are all a full system. And so looking at the words that we use, are they lifting? Are they building my relationship? Or are they degrading? Are they pulling down? Are they hurting? Are they harming myself? Even the words that we use towards ourselves, like, we have those critical voices, but are we listening to those or are we being kind to ourselves? There's kindness matters and our words matter. So I'd love to invite our listeners to be kind to yourself and to be kind to others.

Love it. For me, it's actually two parts. The first part is how are you receiving others words? Is there a sensitivity that I'm not actually hearing you because of my own stuff? So really pausing to understand not only the words that I'm using, as you were just eloquently said, but also what I'm hearing and if I don't understand something? The second part of this process is get curious. Help me understand what you mean clarify from a non. Let's use this word defensive position, meaning I'm open to hearing what you're saying. I want to understand. Help me identify what you're experiencing in this. So for me, it's both what am I communicating and what I'm hearing and when I don't understand it. Before I become defensive, listen, get curious. And someday I'll tell you about one of my favorite stories from Thich Nhat Hanh about Plum Village. So we'll talk about that in another podcast.

All right, that's a great teaser.

Yeah. The reality is we're out of time today. So, Marianne, it's absolutely been fun talking about the language we use to our listeners. Thank you for our sharing and listening. We do invite you to share our podcast with others. We appreciate our listeners and we invite you to make love every day. Not sexual. Have a great week.

Thank you.

Something surround you. It's like you're shining. You're siren.