Doing the Right Thing: Ella F. Washington, PhD, on Taking The Necessary Journey

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the nonprofit I founded, the center for Global Initiatives. The center is an all volunteer organization so there are no salaries and thus all tax deductible donations can go to the work. While our key country partner is in Tanzania, our work is global and generally focused in the areas of education and healthcare. We also help others to get their nonprofits started or augment others project based initiatives. It's our goal to open source humanitarian intervention and to help make it easier for others to do more good in the world. We are proud to have been ranked a great nonprofit every year since 2011 and to have achieved a Platinum level rating by Guidestar Links. In this episode's show, notes will take you to published articles on our outcomes, a number of helpful tools, and downloadable resources which are all free always. Please Visit us at CenterForGlobalInitiatives.org and be sure to watch our video at Patreon.com DrChrisStout to learn more. Thanks welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. Quiet quitting has become quite topical in the media as of late, but perhaps the real story is quiet firing. That refers to an employer who doesn't give raises or doesn't provide promotion opportunities, or they slight team members and actually diminish or stall their employees. Professional growth. Everyone, both personally and professionally, wants to feel seen and heard. Some employers struggle to listen in order to learn and inadvertently cause their staff to shut down. And this can be in spite of diversity, equity, inclusion, justice and belonging programs being in place. Harmful inequity, influence and ignorance can be found in many a boardroom and work setting. Work should create a space that elevates the minds of the people in it and collectively supports each person's voice. These are the concepts researched by organizational psychologist and DEI expert Dr. Ella F. Washington. Dr. Washington offers a wealth of experience as the founder and CEO of Elevate Solutions, serves as a Gallup Senior Scientist studying race strengths and other DEI workplace topics, and she co hosts the Gallup center of Black Voices Cultural Competence Podcast. She's also professor of practice at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business, where she recently received the Excellence in teaching award from Georgetown's MBA class of 2021. She is the author of the Necessary Making Real Progress on Equity and Inclusion, published by the Harvard Business Review, which we'll be focusing on in this episode. Dr. Washington's consultation practice has impacted clients in various Fortune 100 companies, financial services, sports and entertainment, oil and gas industries, higher education, and government. Her research and client work focuses on women in the workplace, barriers to inclusion for diverse groups, and working with organizations to build inclusive cultures. She has developed learning workshops, facilitates strategic planning sessions, and conducted inclusiveness audits with executive leadership teams to have goals of intentionally improving diversity and inclusion. She grew up in a tight knit family in Durham, North Carolina. Dr. Washington attended Spelman College, a historically black women's institution in Atlanta, which led to her passion for maximizing the success of women and minorities. After earning her PhD at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management, she moved to Washington, D.C. where she currently resides. Dr. Washington enjoys being active in her church, giving back to her local community, traveling the world, and staying closely connected with loved ones. Welcome to the show, Ella. It's great to have you on.

It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

So let's first do a little bit background and origin story. What drew you generally into organizational psychology and in particular then dei?

So I remember vividly hearing my mom talk about how she loved her profession but always disliked something about her job to the point that she would come home complaining about her colleagues or the structure of the work, et cetera. She was a nurse by training and practice, and it was interesting to always hear her talk about she loved being a nurse, but she really disliked a lot of the elements in her workplace. And then as I got older, I started to continue to hear people always kind of complaining about their job. It's just a thing people do, right? And so it was fascinating for me because I thought about the fact, and there's lots of research to back this up, that we spend so much of our lives at work, more than one third of our lives actually we spend at work or working. And I would, you know, think that we probably spend more than that thinking about the invention of smartphones and things that keep us all the time, right? So I feel, yeah, I think we probably work more than a third of our life. But if you think about something you're doing a third of your life, like your entire life A third of it is spent working, then shouldn't we be spending a third of our lives doing something we enjoy not, you know, something that we dread every single day? So for me, my underlying kind of interest and mission has always been how do we make that workplace experience a little bit better for people? And specifically, as I studied psychology at undergrad at Spelman College and continued on to my PhD, I specifically got really curious about how can we especially make the workplace somewhere where everyone can thrive, no matter their background, their ethnicity, their gender, and any other characteristics. How do we make it so not just some people can thrive, but all can thrive? And so that's what's really the underlying motivation of all of the work that I do. And it's been really gratifying to have a career in this space.

That's great. And I, I also have to do a shout out. I love your company's title of Elevate Solutions. That is just spot on. I just really like that. That's so, so creative and clever. So you also co host a podcast with Camille Loyd. Can you maybe talk about some of the topics that you've covered in that with her?

Absolutely. So, you know, my career has been at the square intersection of research and practice. And what I mean by that is that I really value all of the research that myself and my colleagues do and it adds a lot to our knowledge. But a lot of the times, you know, a lot of that research will sit in the ivory tower, so that we often say, right. And it doesn't get out, it doesn't reach the practitioners that we so much wanted to. And so one of the wonderful tenets of the cultural competence podcast is that we often are talking about the practice of diversity, equity and inclusion work, but also layer in research. Because Gallup is such a strong research organization. And so I really enjoy the topics that we cover. We cover everything from hair discrimination and code switching in the workplace to more recent events. If something's happening in the news or in the media, we'll talk about it, especially from the vantage place of how does this impact you at work? And so Camille Lloyd is a fantastic co host and truly enjoy that space with her.

That's great. Yeah. I've had the opportunity to listen to a few of your episodes. You guys have a very nice dynamic between the two of you. I'm very envious. Sometimes it feels sort of alone just being a solo podcaster. So you guys just have a wonderful chemistry between the two of you as well. And I just hear here to bringing like the research into practical application. Because you're right, a lot of times, you know, these epidemiological kinds of studies or statistical kinds of analyses can be, you know, come across as very dry and don't even, you know, maybe catch the eye of journalists that should be covering these kinds of things. So to bring it to an easily accessible, very understandable and actionable kind of way is terrific. So I applaud you guys for your work in that area. And I guess, you know, speaking of bringing academia to the, to the public and to application, let's segue to your book. I want to start off, I'm going to give a few quotes to get the ball rolling. You said about it that organizations have largely missed the mark when it comes to creating environments where all employees thrive in an equal and equitable way because they treat DEI as a program that gets done rather than the necessary and difficult journey it is. A truly inclusive workplace requires invention and reinvention, mistakes and humility, adaptation to a changing world, constant self reflection and sometimes significant sacrifice. So I really understand then, Ella, like why your book is so perfectly titled the Necessary Journey. I mean it makes great sense. So I want to dig into it. I got to give a couple of other little shout outs. I want to share what some others have said about it. So Adam Grant, New York Times best selling author of Think Again and host of his own podcast Work Life, said, it's an unusually informative, instantly actionable book on how to move from lip service on diversity to the reality of inclusion. Ella Washington is a leading expert on the science and practice of inclusion and she shows what it takes for workplaces to walk the talk. Jim Clifton, who's chairman and former CEO of Gallup, said, I love Washington's challenge to us, which is to take the issues of DEI ourselves in our own organizations and and to get on the journey rather than just waiting for mandates. Laws can't change feelings, but leaders can. If all of us just got on the journey starting today, this ugly scourge of a problem would be magically fixed. This book outlines the hard climb to the top, but one you can do. And Ella Washington is your Sherpa. And James D. White, former chair and CEO of Jamba Juice and author of Anti Racist Leadership, said the Necessary Journey is a must read for any leader interested in building a more inclusive culture. Whether you're starting out or just, pardon me, already on the road, read this book to win hard earned progress. And Ella, I have to agree, not only is it an engaging read, but like Adam said, it's also quite actionable. So with this background, you've got the podcast, you've got the consultation, you've got the academic bona fides with Georgetown, etc. What was the trigger to put this all together in a book

in the summer of 2020? You know, many leaders continue to ask me the same questions over and over, and they kept asking me, you know, without a doubt, they kept asking, you know, how do we know where we are on the journey and how do we compare to other people? And those are very typical questions. But I found it curious that I kept getting those questions over and over, especially during that time in summer 2020, when many organizations were paying attention to DEI in a different way than they had before. And the notion of journey in terms of DEI is not a new one. You know, you often hear DEI practitioners say we're on a journey, But I also have had noticed that many of them would say we're on a journey, but didn't really have anything to follow that up with. Like, what does that mean in terms of dei? You know, how do we continue on the journey? How do we know we're making progress? And so given those consistent questions I got, and just the fact that I felt like many DEI leaders or practitioners were using this term of the journey, but a lot of people didn't really know what it really took in terms of dei, I thought was. Was necessary.

That's great.

And, you know, further, when I thought about, okay, there's a lot of books even, you know, coming out at the same time mine came out, but prior to that, there's a lot of books out there on DEI and many of them are wonderful. And so I was wondering, how could I share something that will touch people in a different way, that'll be complimentary to all of the frameworks and other types of more textbook like books? And I found the notion in thinking back to journey, you know, people struggle with, you know, seeing themselves in a story. You know, often people often say, especially with Di, you know, I'm not sure where I fit in or how I connect. And so I wanted to write something that every single person who read it, no matter your background, no matter your level in the organization, you could see yourself somewhere in these stories. And we know that, you know, no matter how great the facts and figures are from a research and data perspective, people remember stories, people remember narratives. And so the approach that I took was one of creating these narratives of organizations by talking with their leaders to see how can we bring what is often an opaque Topic like dei, a lot of people didn't understand what it really means. Once you get beyond the basic definitions, how do we bring that topic to life in a way that people can see themselves?

That's great. Did you, like, how did you go about. I'm also going to kind of bounce around a little bit because I also like to nerd out with authors about how they structured the book. And I want to get into that too, because you did some very clever techniques. But, like, how was it that. How did companies like Slack or PwC, Best Buy, Denny's, how did those get on your radar? Did you. How'd they get on your radar? I don't even want to guess. It just seems there's probably a variety of ways. But how'd that work?

You know, it's so interesting because, you know, I started off with companies who I thought they had an interesting story to tell. Maybe I knew something about their journey from being a customer or because it was in the news. So companies like Denny's. I grew up in North Carolina, and Denny's is headquartered in South Carolina. So I very much remember, you know, Denny's Troubles in the 1990s when I was growing up. And, you know, it led to a lot of people like myself saying, I'm not really going to be a patron of Denny's because they have these problems with racism. And so a company that I, you know, had a personal connection with and to see how far they've come. Now, those were companies of personal interest to me, but there were many companies that I reached out to that said no. And so part of it was a convenience sample for being honest.

Yeah,

no. And so I think every organization has a story to tell. Right. So for me, I was okay with, you know, leaning into the organizations that wanted to tell their story. There were some organizations that I really thought they had a wonderful story to tell, that when it came down to it, you know, they were unsure how it would be received or they didn't want to tell people they'd had some mess ups, even though those mess ups were already in the media. Right. You know, most of the background research I did was from information that was publicly available. What my book found as an additive is to get the actual stories of those leaders or people that work within those companies to bring that publicly available information to life. And so it was a very interesting process along the way because I just thought, especially with the, you know, the sign of the times, that many organizations would be so excited to share their story, especially organizations that I thought were kind of further along in their journey, but that wasn't the case. And then you have other organizations that I ended up getting exposed to that were maybe not as far on their journey, but they were really honest, and they wanted to engage in this candid conversation. And so that was a wonderful surprise to just see the dynamics. And it's a testament to the fact that even if you are doing well, there are still some hiccups that many organizations have with being transparent around their DEI journeys.

Yeah, I really want to emphasize that. I would also say you're an organizational psychologist. I'm a clinical psychologist, so we have a shared psychology and maybe different perspectives and approaches. But I would also guess, Ella, that you probably made it a safe space for those folks to feel that it was okay to share their stories in a humble and, you know, oh, shucks, you know, we kind of messed this up, or, you know, we, you know, and it's. I think that's so rare today. I mean, maybe this is my biases squeaking through, but I think that, you know, a lot of times the. The corporate Personas, you know, just have to, you know, be so scripted and so kind of, you know, in a sense, I would say, you know, artificial, that this is the way we should be. So this is, you know, we never make mistakes, or if there's something went wrong, then, you know, it's somebody else's fault, etc. And the transparency of the stories of, you know, again, it's always great to talk about people's successes, but it's. It's difficult to talk about, you know, what. What we did, what went wrong, or, you know, gosh, it's embarrassing to say, well, we thought this was the case, but indeed, this might be some other, you know, issues kind of seeping through and unconsciously informing the decisions we made. So, bravo. I think that was pretty amazing. I remember the chapter on Uncle Nearest you wrote, intentionality is a virtue. I thought that was just almost like a poetic turn of phrase. Can you say more about what you meant by that and how Uncle Nearest was kind of manifesting that?

Absolutely. So, you know, when we say be intentional, it's kind of like any other journey where, you know, we're at the top of the year. So a lot of folks, folks, you know, have say they want to be intentional about their health or their fitness, or they want to be intentional about their daily habits. But the intention has to go beyond that moment that you have the motivation. The intention must especially still shine through when you're not motivated or when things are not going well. And so that goes for any journey. Right. Specifically, as you think about dei, you know, I think Uncle Nearest the. The company did a great job, and it continues to do a great job of figuring out what they stand for at the outset. And it's one of the things that I encourage companies to do, and I worked a lot with organizations, you know, starting in 2020 through today, of them realizing, you know, we have these values on our website or we have these things that we say we stand for, but we're not really sure that that's what we still stand for today or when the rubber meets the road, are we connecting our actions with those values? And one of the things I admire about the Uncle Nearest company is that not only do they have their values on the website, you can't even apply to a job without acknowledging that you read through their values. It doesn't stop with just the list on the website. It really is connected to how they do business, how they treat each other and what they expect from team members, anyone that is a part of the organization. And so I really admire that sense of intentionality beyond just the words, but really making sure their actions match those wonderful values on their website.

Yeah. And the fact, too, that they care to do that, you know, I think it speaks to the, you know, the. I don't know, it's not just esprit de corps, but the authenticity of leadership and, you know, bringing that leadership to work and that if it's important, it's important no matter where. Like you said at the top of the show, the, you know, work is so much of our lives, and especially if you're a founder, I know you've worked with a lot of startups, and I think it's sort of. There's so many different kinds of things that can be going on in large companies and startups as well. But to be able to have this kind of aspect be, you know, fundamental or synthetic with, you know, what the company's supposed to be like and what. How people treat each other within that company, I think is, you know, is, you know, such a. Literally such a virtue. I'm trying to think of another word, but it's so, so befitting. So in that context, too, can you. You've wrote in the book, can you share with listeners what the parody pledge is and how it came about?

The parody pledge from which organization, like

with Best Buy and things that had happened after George Floyd's murder.

Yeah. So there. Because there's a lot of different pledges out there.

Yeah, yeah, good. Touche. Good point.

So the parity pledge is one of the most prominent pledges, and it asks organizations to commit to interview and consider at least one qualified woman for every top leadership role. And so it's all about gender parity specifically. It actually has been around for quite a few years. And so Best Buy is one of those companies that have committed to it, but many other organizations have as well, specifically looking at their gender parity or the lack of.

Okay, that's good. And then, because I know I visited that website a while back and took a look at it, I think it also could be something just as listeners take a look at from the Am I happy where I'm at or maybe it's time for me to make a change in career or change in company? That these could be some of the little research aspects that they could do to vet a company, not just what the kind of work is or what the position offers. So I think those kinds of things are, are, you know, quite helpful. You know, I, I warned you in, in advance that I like to nerd out with authors about book structure and design. You used a format, like a framework for thinking about the companies that and where they are in their journeys and then where the reader and their company, you know, can kind of assess themselves in comparison to it. How. How did you come up with that? Was that born from being a professor at Georgetown or how did you. I thought that was a very creative, clever approach, but I'm just curious as to how you came up with that. It's so inspiring.

Well, you know, my writing approach is interesting because this was my first book and so a lot of it was trying to figure out, like, what is my writer's voice and how do I demonstrate to readers who maybe I have never met or maybe will never meet. We kind of get those same messages across. And my editor had some great advice and especially when I was struggling early on, you know, a lot of the things that you're going to write about in your book, you already say. You maybe already have them written down in your PowerPoint slides when you teach, or the things that you might say in keynote addresses to companies. And so finding a way to take all that stuff in my mind or that I say without even realizing it, conversations or in interviews like this one, and putting it in the book was a challenge. But once I kind of took off the pressure of, you know, writing the perfect thing the first time and really just writing what I'm trying to get out into the atmosphere that was really beneficial for me.

Yeah, yeah, I, I think that's, that's a very clever technique because oftentimes, you know, when you do a keynote or when you lecture for a class or whatever, the content that you do, you've done the research, you've, you know, you've. You put it into an articulated form to be able to explain, explain it to an audience who may have some sophistication in it or zero sophistication in it. And then being able to use that as maybe kind of like your outlines and structuring the book, that's a very clever, clever approach. You also, I have to give a shout out to the design of your appendices and spheres of influence model as applied to DEI and associated company profiles and endings. Was that also similar to when you would assess a company if they had you to come out and do a keynote, would you do sort of that blueprinting, if you will, or assessment, or how did you develop those spheres of influence models and things that were also included in the book?

So spheres of influence is a concept I've talked about for a few years, and it's all about, like, what is the possibility to impact the world of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that even goes into a lot of companies, social, environmental aspects as well. But every company, every person, even, we all have a sphere of influence, and some of us have larger spheres of influence than others, and that's okay. But we all have other people that we can influence in our behaviors, especially when it comes to allyship or, you know, speaking out against things that are wrong. And so when I thought about these companies, what I wanted to share is that what each company had done around these different spheres of influence when it came to dei, Because a lot of people immediately think of, you know, DEI efforts internal to a company, and those are great and really important. But it must go beyond just your employees, right? It has to go to your vendors, your suppliers, your board of directors, your other stakeholders. But we each have a spirit of influence that even goes beyond that. You know, the industry the company may be in or the social media impact that that company has. Or maybe that company has a lot of connections when it comes to government and legislation. And beyond that, every company is physically located in a community, but there's also the notion of the communities that the company touches through their customers and other people they have influence over. And so in thinking about this larger spirit, influence, it's important for organizations to understand that it's not just one aspect of who you are that you have to consider when you're thinking about De and I. And for companies that are most mature on their journey, they have thought through their entire sphere of influence and have some idea about how they want to be impactful from a diversity, equity and inclusion. Inclusion perspective, but also those areas, what are the largest opportunities for them? And so, you know, that's something that I did in terms of the research that I was doing in every company and again, hoping that other companies that, you know, read the book can think about their own sphere of influence because many companies are already doing something in their community, they have some type of philanthropy, they're already doing something around their employees. But having a way to really kind of plot out and understand, okay, what is our overall impact across all of our spheres of influence and how can we get stronger in those areas, maybe that we've overlooked is something that I hope every company is paying attention to.

Well put, you. It just makes me think of something that you say throughout the book, kind of, and some of the things I've done on background on you as well too, that you talk about a workplace utopia and that you maybe, I presume, maybe consultatively, sort of challenge to employees or to leaders. What does a workplace utopia look like to you? Can you maybe unpack that for listeners and what your concept behind that is?

Workplace utopia is all about? How do we create those environments where everyone is able to thrive? And part of what I see happens especially for those of us who work in the DEI space. You know, this work is really difficult. And so part of it is having something positive to, to look out for kind of a North Star. What are we actually working for? What will make us, you know, know that we've made progress five or ten years down the line. Like, yes, the demographics and the metrics. Absolutely. But from that thought perspective, conceptualizing what is a world where this organization has really moved forward on diversity, equity and inclusion. What am I working so hard for? What's that big picture idea? And each of us has a idea of what our ideal workplace is. And so even putting that top of mind for folks has been one way to motivate and get people thinking outside of the box. And by the way, everyone's is going to be a little different. So there's no perfect organization that can be a utopia for everyone. But I do think the more that we talk about what does it take for us to thrive in our organizational environments, the more that everyone's sharing that in an organization, the more the organization will be able to move towards a direction to Making a space that everyone feels some sense of comfort and some ability to thrive.

That's great. Yeah. And, you know, it just seems to me, too, I know that there's. There can be chief diversity officers and things like that, but really, if you get it sort of insinuated into the culture of the workplace and that people really get what the benefits are, that, you know, it just. It seems like, you know, just everything like EBITDA and profitability and market reach, et cetera, just. It's another variable that helps, you know, define success and be measured in terms of, you know, how a company and longevity of the company, et cetera. You also talk and write about three foundational DEI steps. Purpose, pitfalls, and progress. Can you share a little bit more about your conceptualization of those three?

Absolutely. So organizations often ask me, well, where do we start? Or how do we kind of take a pulse on where we are on the journey? And so the three things that I think every organization should be able to identify are purpose, pitfalls in progress. So the first is purpose. What do we stand for as an organization? How does DEI esg our other human capital elements? How do all of those things connect to who we are as a organization? What is our mission and purpose? And that may sound easy, but many organizations struggle to figure out kind of, who do we want to be in this space? How does the rubber meet the road in terms of who we say we want to be and who we actually are? And so that purpose is a key element. You know, what's our goal here? And then the second thing is to pitfall. So once we have that goal in mind through evaluating our purpose, what are the things that are holding us back from achieving that goal? Right. So we could say we want to be a place where everyone has equal opportunity to advance, but when we look at our demographics, there are some things that aren't matching up there. So what has held us back? Maybe it's a big mistake on behalf of the company. Maybe there are smaller, more informal things about our culture. But whatever it is, we have to hold the mirror up and say, what are our pitfalls? What's holding us back? And by the way, everyone has something to work on. And so many companies really, you know, they shrink back when you say, what are your pitfalls? But no company is perfect. No purse is perfect. So, you know, I even encourage people to think of these three P's along their own individual journeys as well. What's my purpose? What am I trying to achieve? Who am I? You know, what are the things that are holding me back. Maybe it's how I grew up. Maybe it's not being exposed to certain things. There's a lot that can kind of go into that. And that third area is progress. What does progress actually look like based on what we said our goal is? And so that takes metrics certainly, but it also takes short term and long term goals. It cannot just be the big lofty purpose goal. Like we want to be, you know, an organization where people feel X, Y and Z. That's great. But we got to break it down in measurable and trackable short term and long term goals. And it's really important to have both short term and long term goals because a lot of the times organizations set these big goals that maybe will take five or 10 years to achieve and that's okay, but you also got to have shorter term goals so people don't get so frustrated and feel like they're not making progress. So both of those elements are necessary.

That's great. You know, in talking about the metrics and things like that, there's been some sort of interesting sort of karmic interventions since you and I booked our conversation, because I kid you not, I just got a bulk email from the Illinois state treasurer and the subject line, Ella, was diversity and transparency are good for business. And I thought I should have, probably should have just forwarded it to you because it's really, it was really kind of, you know, interesting and neat to see in the message. The treasurer noted a report from McKinsey and Company and just, I'm going to quote a real quick line from it that companies with the highest levels of gender diversity outperformed by 25% in terms of profitability and that corporations with diverse boards outperformed homogenous boards. When people from different backgrounds make decisions together, they are less prone to groupthink and they are less likely to miss opportunities in different sectors. This leads to better decision making, which leads to higher profits. I mean, like, how about that, Ella, to kind of have people starting to appreciate that. Do you have any, does your radar have any kind of. I mean, I know you spent time in Illinois at Northwestern, but are other states doing this too? Is this, this a one off and tip of the hat to Illinois treasurer or what. What do you see in on the horizon with these kinds of things coming from places like the, the state?

Well, I think, you know, all organizations, government included, have started to be more thoughtful and intentional, we hope, around their DEI efforts. And one of the things that we know is that there has to Be both a, a moral case to, you know, that we understand that treating people equally have everyone having the opportunity to thrive is a moral challenge. But also there's a business case that must be talked about and that makes some feel uncomfortable to think about. Well, why do we have to put a price tag on humanity? And I'm not advocating for that. I think there is this underlying morality that we hope everyone shares. But the truth of the matter is, what history has taught us over and over again is that morality is not enough. It should be enough. Just humanity should be enough. But you know, history has shown us that it's not enough that people, when it comes down to it, they care about the dollar and cents of it all as well. Especially leaders who may or may not fully buy into the moral cause. Right. And that gets to a whole nother, you know, space. But you know, we, we, when we come to work, we cannot assume that everyone has the same morality and background that we can, that we have. Well, what we can do is all connect on what's best for this organization. And the wonderful thing is that we know from all of this research, such as the report shared by McKinsey and many others over the past 20 years, mind you, these are not new findings. They are just continuing to underlining the point that when you have more diverse organizations and you have an inclusive environment, that is really key because without an inclusive environment, people aren't going to feel comfortable speaking up in those spaces where, you know, there's less diversity, but diversity and inclusion, you are going to get better business outcome. You can look at team research to see how teams communicate better, they make decisions better, they're less likely to make mistakes. All of these elements are, you know, core management topics. And so when you study those at the macro level, you do see these outcomes that that McKinsey study and others have talked about. So hats off to Illinois for, you know, putting that out and bringing people's attention to the research. I think that organizations must be clear on their values, what they stand for from that morality perspective, but also to continue to get people to support these initiatives, especially when morality wanes. Because we see that all the time. You know, people get passionate and up arms, but then that wanes over time. What is often a centering aspect is bringing them to the business case that this is not only the right thing to do, but this is the best thing for the success of our organization.

That's great. You know, I know we're getting close on time. A couple other things just if you're Good for time. I want to circle back. It was what you said about your mom and her experiences being a nurse. It kind of overlaps in the Venn diagram of psychology and career with me as well too, in healthcare and medicine and stuff. And I had, There's a researcher, Dr. Kim Templeton, and she's working on curricular changes in medicine, in particular to increase education in sex and gender based medicine, microaggressions and clinical practice. And from patients, certainly provider burnout and other issues that seem to differentially impact women physicians. Has that been any activity that you've had, or can you speak to that in terms of dealing with those kinds of issues or even like moral injury?

Well, it's interesting because, you know, a lot of the things that we're talking about in a corporate space, you do see them in health care. So microaggressions from healthcare providers to patients of color, for example, that's been talked about a lot more lately. Bias in the healthcare system itself. You know, a patient of a certain demographic has to do more to prove they're in pain or they're in danger compared to other demographics. Right. And so we do see a lot more of that research. And quite frankly, it's been known in healthcare for some time. It just hasn't been publicized and talked about in the way that it is today. And so I think that, you know, no matter the sector, they're all going in the right direction with this level of awareness and putting research behind the experiences of people every day. Now it's up to those entities, whether they be hospitals, whether they be, you know, healthcare sectors, whether they be individual organizations, to actually do something about it. I think research gives us the tools we need to understand why action must take place. But that action has to happen in order for us to see change.

Yeah, it seems too like within maybe to segue from healthcare and medicine to psychology. Like the. I'm a member of the Illinois Psychological association, and our associations just developed an equity diversity and inclusion task force that's got a lot of sharp people on it, doing a lot of great work and continuing education kinds of things. And the current issue of the American Psychological Association's Monitor on Psychology, I just happen to have it right here, has like three articles on it. They've got a promoting equity and inclusion in journals. They've got a continuing education article on increasing supervisor savvy around culture, race and identity. And then they have a kind of a profile of different ways of looking at DEI issues in universities and whatnot. And I think again, it's just sort of like the more that these kinds of things can get out there, it demonstrates from your original point about the research that's being done, but then it is back to the practical application and psychology. I was just involved in a book on global health and a lot of what we wrote about, and that was the decolonialization of psychology that, you know, a lot of on the clinical side of things, you know, it's a lot of white European guys that, you know, put things together. And now I think there's much more of an appreciation and inclusiveness in undergraduate psych courses and aspects of intersectionality and whatnot. So I think, you know, psychology is, you know, trying to have a bit of a leadership and empirically grounded kind of perspective. The latest issue of the American Psychologist, the monthly, has guidelines for increasing racial justice allyship. So all those things give me some hope, you know, and again, that, as you know, these things are very much, you know, empirically based, scientifically based. They're not op eds or whatever. And they, you know, I like the broad spectrum aspect of it from, you know, universities thinking about how we think, taking a critical, sober, but balanced eye about, you know, what are we predicating some of our past, you know, theories and assumptions on. Maybe we need to, you know, update these things and look at them in a different way. And I think the work that you do, the teaching that you do at Georgetown, the putting out books like this and your podcast and everything else, you've got so many, you know, helpful, you know, tools out there and the consultation and whatnot that are so great for people. So, again, I want to be conscious of your time, but do you have any crystal ball predictions of the future of dei, like, what's next for the workplaces? What are maybe some innovations that you've seen that hopefully will sprout and grow further?

So it's interesting because given what's happening with our economy, and there's lots of nervousness about what's next from an economic standpoint, I urge organizations not to be thinking about what. What's the most innovative thing they can do. I urge them to actually look back. Where have we come in three years? What progress have we actually made? That strategy we put together in 2020, are we still activating on it, and are we being intentional about it two and a half, three years later? Even in times of economic challenge, I really do think that companies have to pay attention to that. We're often excited about the next big thing. But what I worry about is organizations losing steam or losing that passion that they had, you know, two and a half years ago when they set out on this pathway. And so I want organizations to really dig up what, whatever they produced in 2020, and they promised their employees, they promised their stakeholders, I want them to be looking back at that and taking stock of where have we come? Where have we missed the mark? Right. Is our purpose still the same? Has it shifted? That happens. That's okay. But really being continually intentional, I think is where organizations really must focus. Because though we've made some progress, we haven't made enough, you know, and 2020 was not the start of this work. It was a catalyst to move it forward in a major way. But organizations have to remember this is the long journey. It's not something that's going to happen overnight. And so we want to see that continued effort and attention.

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. Well, let's wrap up with that. If listeners would like to learn more to get your book connect, what are some of the best ways that they can do that? We'll put that into the show notes as well.

Absolutely. I encourage listeners to connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm very active there. Ella F. Washington as well as finding out more about my book, the necessary journey@thenessaryjourney.com Excellent.

Great. Well, thank you for your time. I know you are so busy, you got so many things going on, but just carving out a little time like this to share this conversation means a lot to me. I really appreciate it. It was great reading your book and doing the background on you. You've got a quite a, you know, impressive and award winning career and I can't wait to see what comes next.

Ella, thank you so much for having me. Chris. It's been a pleasure.

Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot, LLC. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website at Life in Full for show notes and please recommend this to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks. And until next time,