Dr. Kelly Torres on Global Innovation in Educational Psychology and Technology

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This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode of Living a Life in Full is brought to you by the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. The Chicago School offers numerous study abroad opportunities that allow students to apply classroom theory in a global setting, addressing issues that underserved communities face in countries around the world. As an innovator in psychology and related behavioral health sciences for 40 years, the Chicago School has developed a hands on approach to education that provides students the chance to make a difference in the lives of others while still pursuing their education. Change the way you see the world and the way the world sees you by joining a global community of professionals dedicated to making a difference. Learn more at TheChicagoSchool. Eduardo welcome to another episode of Living

a Life in Full.

I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. I'm excited to have Dr. Kelly Torres

on our show today as part of

our limited run Global Innovators series. Dr. Torres is the Chair of the Chicago school of professional psychology's online department

of educational psychology and technology.

Dr. Torres earned her doctoral degree in Educational Psychology from Florida State University. In addition to two Master's degrees in Education Psychology and in Curriculum and Instruction, she also possesses Florida K12 teaching certificates in English for Speakers of Other Languages and in exceptional student education. Dr. Torres has over 10 years of mentor experience working with elementary aged learners. She's also taught numerous university level courses in both online and classroom settings in Educational Psychology, Foundations of Education, Assessment, Curriculum Development, linguistics and culture. Dr. Torres Research interests are focused on

the implementation of technology into educational settings

in order to enhance student academic outcomes and on various aspects of the motivational influences that may impact second language learning and culture. Her research has resulted in numerous manuscript

publications in state, regional, national and international conference presentations.

She has also worked as a consultant for state and national curriculum Accreditation Committees

and has helped to develop national K12

English for speakers of Other Languages professionals efficiency high stakes assessment approach in the international arena. Dr. Torres has developed a study abroad program in South Africa where she's provided professional development workshops for educators for over the last four years. Her international work has resulted in partnerships with non governmental organizations, universities and South African township schools.

Welcome to the show, Kelly.

Thank you.

Well, first off, you really have an amazing CV and body of work for

listeners that aren't familiar with you yet. Could you share a little bit about your background and your interests in educational

psychology in general and then second language learning and culture in particular?

Yes. So as you share, my academic background is in educational psychology and curriculum instruction, and throughout my graduate studies, I was really interested in better understanding how individuals learn. And in particular, my interests were focused on language learning in the United States and how individuals maintain their heritage languages and cultures, and I particularly focused on Spanish heritage languages in the United States. So over the last decade, my research interests have expanded to include a focus on better understanding how technology impacts how we teach, learn, and work, which really came about through my observations of the expansion of online learning and how much it's grown over the last decade. I really consider myself a lifelong learner and. And I'm constantly exploring new forms of technology that we can utilize in order to further enhance student learning outcomes and to improve how we teach and structure our curriculum in order to better prepare our students to really enter workforce that is becoming increasingly more technology advanced. And through my work at the Chicago School, I have now had the opportunity to explore how online learning is perceived and utilized in international context as well.

Wow, that's great. It seems to me also, I sort of grew up in an era when you were trying to do international work of getting materials and resources, let alone, you know, sort of like live webcasts and things like that, to people in other countries, was just such a burden and so expensive. And, you know, by the time that you would get certain kinds of educational materials over, you know, they would be maybe not as relevant or what have you. So I think the whole aspect of looking at technology not as a something, I mean, it's certainly something to learn about, but it's also something that is sort of like a resource and a tool to be able to then implement and use locally as well as globally and internationally.

Yes, most definitely.

So tell us a little bit more like, and I guess this is sort of a meta kind of thing, but as being chair of the Online Department of Educational Psychology and Technology, I mean, sort of like that to me implies that the courses and things like that are provided virtually. Are they internationally available?

Or tell us a little bit more

about the department and your work there.

Yes. So the program's offered to both domestic students in the United States as well as those that are in international context. And we have international students and students across the United States enrolled in the program and the Educational Psychology and Technology program at the Chicago School is really focused on preparing students to become practitioners who apply both educational and psychological theories and academic and organizational settings. And more specifically, the program is really focused on preparing students to become competent professionals with the ability to be able to identify and assess teaching and learning related challenges. They're also able to design and implement curriculum, and students also develop the expertise to be able to use technology to improve learning, and they also develop the skill sets needed to assess the efficacy of a program. So essentially, graduates of our program develop the knowledge and expertise needed to determine how to use technology to improve individual learning outcomes and to enhance productivity and sustainability of programs. And so I work directly with faculty on program development and enhancements to ensure that the program content is reflective of current trends and effectively prepares students to enter a dynamic and ever changing workforce, particularly in regards to technology innovation and changes. And in regards to the student body of our program, our students are very diverse and that we have students who work in many different sectors of K12 education and higher education. We also have students who are enrolled in the program who work in government and federal agencies and other types of organizational and nonprofit settings, as well as in other types of contacts. And the majority of our students are full time working professionals. So we are cognizant that they may have many different competing responsibilities outside of their academic studies. And the program faculty and staff have just worked really diligently to create a community of learners in the program who feel supported throughout their doctoral journeys.

That's nice. So is it so doctoral program? So most of the folks are. Do they come in post baccalaureate or with master's degrees or who comes in?

Yeah. So everyone in the program has a master's degree in order to join the program. It's a requirement. And we're an edd, so we're a Doctor of Education program.

Gotcha. So are the. Is it like a cohort of students that comes in at a specific time or how does. How does an academic. Is there an academic year or how does that part work?

Yes, for our particular program, we accept students three times per year. So in January we have a new start for our spring, and then in May we have our summer start and then in late August we have our fall start and students do join the program. And if cohort model, which has been very successful for them and motivating for them, they really get to know their peers throughout taking classes together and completing different types of program requirements. We also have students come to Residencies that are hosted in Chicago. So they do develop relationships across cohorts and they develop those in our study abroad programs as well.

That's nice. How often do they come on site?

They come on site at least twice within their program of studies, usually towards the end of their first year of study and between their second year, third year of study.

And like, what's a typical course load look like for them? Because you said most these folks are going to be working full time professionals. So what would, if, if I were to enroll in that, what would I be faced with in terms of academic, you know, requirements and challenges? And like, are the classes at a specific time? Are they asynchronous? What does that look like?

So the majority of our classes are asynchronous and students have access to all the assignments throughout what we call a term. Our terms are eight weeks in length. And so students take, they are rolled in one class per term. And so they end up taking six, six classes per year because we have like a spring one, a spring two, summer one, summer two, fall one, and fall two terms. And so they'll take one class in each of those terms. And they're able to see all their modules, all their assignments, so they're able to better accommodate their schedules. You know, they're, they have professional schedules and many of them have caregiver roles. And so they're able to take those different responsibilities into account as they're trying to complete their assignments each week and the major projects at the end of the course.

Gotcha. So each cohort would sort of, everybody would be expected to take the same class, like in whatever trimester semester segment that it, that it's offered. Right.

So correct for the most part. Right. So then if they take a study abroad class, then it will be outside of their cohort. So there are some exceptions, but for the majority of their classes, they are taking those with their peers that started the program at the same time.

Gotcha. Okay. I know that the Chicago School, we've had one of your colleagues, Tiffany Masson, on, and I know that, and from my prior experience, I've taught there many, many years ago and went with a group to Ghan just with the clinical PsyD program. And it really, it's kind of neat. I mean, I obviously am very, very biased, but I very much like the fact that the Chicago School has such an ethos of getting students into international settings and doing what I think is really sustainable, serious kinds of work, which is nice. It's not just sort of like a glorified 4 credit vacation someplace. It really is meaningful and again is taken seriously not just in your department and your programs, but others as well. I think that's know, kind of exciting. Is that, is that one of the things that drew you to Chicago School or what got you there?

Yes, the international work wasn't actually what drew me there, but it has definitely become very, a passion of mine working there. But the educational psychology and technology program is just unique and how it was developed. It integrates two distinct disciplines of study into one program. So usually you have educational psychology programs, educational technology programs, but the curriculum is not combined into one degree of study, which is what we have at the Chicago school. So I thought that was very innovative and the way they developed the program and I was very excited to be a part of it because technology impacts the way we, you know, the way we communicate in our social settings, the way we work each day, the way we learn. And so I think it's really relevant to include in a program that focuses on learning and teaching and employees and how they work.

Yeah, I, I sort of feel like I, maybe I'm a bit of an evolving dinosaur. My, the high school that my kids went to now has sort of like if there's a snow day, rather than missing that day or having some kind of assignments, you know, somehow broadcast out or sent home, they have an online, they can get lectures online and they can sort of just have a virtual snow day where it's not really out and sledding, which is probably a disappointment to some students but, but they don't then get extra days tacked on to the, the, you know, in the summertime so to speak, as the semester would end. I thought that's just brilliant. And I, I, they like all of our, I don't know how widespread this is, but at least in, in the high school that our kids went to, they had, they were given iPads in their, I forget if it was freshman or sophomore year and then they didn't, you know, they didn't have to buy very many books at all. And it's just, it was really sort of neat. And then now in college years it's been, you know, sort of the same thing that there's a X number of classes that are traditional classroom face to face kinds of things and others that are totally virtual where maybe you get together with your cohort and work on a project together, but even some of those can be all be done, you know, virtually. And I think it was, there was some sort of collaboration. Golly, this is probably in the early 2000s that the Chicago school had with Rush University. And I sort of like team taught, both being on faculty as an adjunct at Chicago School at Rush on a specialized course. And it was not asynchronous. And I had like, on Monday nights I had an hour and a half lecture. And I kept. When we were putting the class together, I kept saying, well, well, where do I go to give the lecture? And people are being very patient with me, saying, well, you can be anywhere you want to do it. And I'm thinking, like any classroom I want to do it in. Well, you don't have to do it in a classroom. No one else is going to be in the classroom. And I just sort. And it was all, you know, through kind of like chats and uploading things. And this is all, you know, before a lot of the technology exists now that's, you know, so ubiquitous around doing virtual. Virtual courses and webinars and things like that. So it's just been fascinating to see kind of this evolution and, and how it's, you know, just the, the deployment of knowledge and the accessibility of things is just really kind of amazing. So, and it's good for me because obviously this is well outside of my specialty, but to understand that there's, you know, people like you and people that are in your faculty and in the students getting this kind of training to be able to do evaluations of these kinds of things. Because I think a lot of times I know with some work that we've been doing in artificial intelligence, the people have, you know, educated me about this black box thing. Well, what happens, you know, when there's technologies applied and, you know, what goes into that? And are there biases and are there, you know, what are the controls?

What.

And what's the level of transparency? And I would think there would be quite a few parallels with that, with curriculum development and instruction and teaching. So that's fascinating. Well, so how long has the program been in existence?

So the program first launched in 2015, so about four years. We're still relatively new, I guess, in comparison to some of the other programs at the Chicago School.

That's great. That's really great. So do you happen. I don't know if, you know, stats off the top of your head, but are the majority of students US Based? Chicago, Illinois or Midwestern based, or do you know?

Yes, so we have quite a few students here, Chicago based. We have a large number of students located in California, Louisiana and Florida, as well as dispersed throughout the United States. And then we have approximately four international students located in different countries.

That's great. I would imagine that also that kind of diversity regionally and culturally brings a lot to the, the virtual classroom setting as well. I would imagine that you wouldn't typically get.

Most definitely. And our faculty are also dispersed throughout the United States and other countries as well. And so. Yes, and so I think it really adds a really rich, robust layer to the course and that they're able to provide examples from their context that might be quite different than the example that another instructor provides or another student provides who lives in a different state or in a different country.

I would think too. I have a sister in law who's now she's retired, but she was a teacher for her career and I know that she and she had taught in different states and you know, we would talk about. And she actually worked, she's bilingual and she would work with a lot of Spanish speaking children. And the aspects of just kind of different school districts, different regional, you know, differences and you know, state laws and you know, a variety of things I never really, you know, I kind of took for granted. I never really thought about it. It's sort of amazing, such variety that you can get of a person's experience based upon what, what region they're in or, or township or wherever it is that they instruct. So speaking of regions and things, let's, let's zoom out a little bit. I know that like I'd mentioned, Chicago School has just, you know, got this, this recognition, reputation for doing a lot of work internationally and you yourself have to study, have developed a study and your focus was in South Africa. Can you tell us a little bit about how that program came about and take us on the journey of where

it started and where it is today?

Sure. So I feel very fortunate for the way that the study abroad program in South Africa transpired. When I first worked at the Chicago School, I had the opportunity to speak with a group of students in the Educational Psychology Technology program and they expressed their interest in gaining international experiences and they really wanted to better understand how to apply our field of study, diverse global settings. So shortly following this conversation, yeah. I was contacted by one of the university's international liaison officers who lives in South Africa and she inquired about the possibility of partnering with the NGO that was located in Peter Moritzburg, South Africa in order for us to develop a study abroad program focused on technology integration into a non fee paying government school. So yeah, it was, it was just

a really great opportunity, organic way to start something that's very Cool.

Yes, most definitely. And so the students were very interested. We are a brand new program. We weren't offering these types of courses yet. And so it was just a great opportunity. So, you know, this initial conversation took place several years ago and we've just continued to expand the program since that time.

It's really, it's really nice to have partners like that as well. As some listeners may know, I started a, a nonprofit NGO about 11 years ago and we do a lot of work, primary work in Tanzania. And you know, it's one of those things where you don't necessarily throw a dart on a map and say, oh, here's where we're going and let's figure out what we're going to do. I really appreciate that this kind of a development aspect that's, you know, there's a defined need, there's a defined set of talent elsewhere and motivation on everybody's part to come together and work together as colleagues. It's. It's really refreshing and kind of a neat way to do that. So when a student, if a student elects to go over there, tell us about what's the mechanics of that, like how many people go and how long do they stay and what do they do when they're there.

So the program is for 10 days in country, but before traveling we do have an online component. So they would take an online course much similar to their other studies. It's just focused on the topics that we'll be exploring in South Africa. We typically take between eight to 12 students with us. And we have two faculty members who are involved in the program, myself and another faculty member. And so we've really developed the program to encompass a focus on a wide array of topics that the students will be exposed to in country. A large component of that is education. We have the opportunity to work in the schools and complete service learning activities in the schools. And then we also have the opportunity to interact with individuals in South Africa to learn about different topics and their experiences. For example, going through apartheid and what that looked like then and how the country's changed now. And we also go on cultural excursions that are of interest to the students because you know, it might be their only time of going to South Africa. So we want make certain they have a well rounded experience there and get to see a lot of different places.

That's great. So how do you go about selecting the social excursion aspect of it?

So there's several ways that we go about that. We have our liaison in South Africa who also provides assistance in Selecting activities based on her experiences of living there and leading other programs. And then we also take our students feedback into account. So students who have previously completed study abroad programs, we see what they enjoyed and what feedback they have on the itinerary, and we consider that. So I would say one of the excursions that has been most popular with students is the game drive, which is just absolutely amazing experience to see wildlife so close. So we do include that every time. Some other cultural excursions that we include, we visit the Mandela capture sites, and then we also visit different museums that are interested students and that provide them additional perspectives of the culture. We also include opportunities for cultural excursions such as visiting local vendors, because a lot of students are interested in purchasing, you know, handmade crafts and souvenirs.

Wow.

As well.

That's great. What are the capture sites? I'm not familiar with that.

So we visit where Mandela, Nelson Mandela was captured.

Oh, really?

In South Africa? Yes, yes. And there's a museum there and they have this amazing statue that if you look at it directly, you can see Mandela's face. But if you weren't looking at directly, it just looks like, you know, a lot of poles just placed in the ground randomly. But you have to. Yes, it's amazing.

That's great.

Wow.

I. I was in Cape Town some years ago and went to Robben island and, you know, saw where like one of the little, you know, small cells that he had stayed in and whatnot, and just, you know, his whole history and everything is just, you know, pretty much amazing. I. The last time I was in South Africa was like 20 years ago, and I think that was around, you know, just 5ish years post apartheid. So how, what's your feel? How are things today, 20 years later? least from my perspective of what it was like.

Yeah. So during my travels to South Africa, it's been really interesting to hear stories of apartheid from both black and white South Africans and just to hear their perceptions of South Africa before and after apartheid. And many of these conversations that I've had with these individuals have really just centered around education since that has been our main focus in the country for our study abroad program. So, for example, some of the conversations have focused on, you know, although the educational standards and the requirements for teaching credentials have changed over the decades, there are still extreme differences in the availability of educator professional development training opportunities that are available for educators who work in different types of schools, which is where we come in, you know, working, providing professional development training to the educators at the local primary school that we've been partner with over the last several years and we provide them training around technology integration, working with large classroom sizes, how to teach with limited resources. But you know, I will share that. It's just truly amazing to observe the teachers that I've had the opportunity to work with there and just see how resourceful they are with the supplies that they have available to them and just their dedication and motivation to help their students achieve. And each time I travel to South Africa, I just find myself becoming more passionate toward making certain that our work there is just sustainable and long terming, long lasting and also has a positive impact on the communities.

I'll share. You were very generous to share some photos. I'll put them in the, the LinkedIn post and some other places so people can see them. But it's sort of like you can just, I don't know, there's just sort of like a, an aura to some of the people's faces and some of the images. They're so wonderful. Thank you for sharing those. I will put them in the show notes, some links as well too so people can share those. With the center that I started, one of the things that was a need that our partners defined was we were working with an orphanage and they really, you know, a lot of these things I never really, you know, knew what the needs were or what have you without them educating me about it. And they wanted to start a kindergarten because they wanted to have opportunities for other kinds of education and to kind of, you know, prime the opportunity that without kindergarten wouldn't have been there for them. And I think the, our system, you know, with all of its good and bad in Western education is quite different than what it was, you know, as I learned in Tanzania. So I know that, you know, not all education systems are the same. Is South Africa similar to a Western model or, or how does it work as a child ages? Can you step us through what that model's like in South Africa?

Sure. So I would say the educational system is quite different than Western schools. And from my experiences and observations there, I think the educational system in South Africa is still very diverse and the school context is really dependent on the fee structure of the school and what's available to students and educators.

Fee structure in the sense of like private schooling or is there public, private or what's that like?

Yes. So there's private schools, there's boarding schools, there's government schools that the students pay an enrollment fee and there's also schools that are completely government funded that students do not pay a Fee. And so when you're observing these schools or visiting the schools, you'll see extreme disparities between the resources that are available, the types of extracurricular activities that might be existent or non existent technology in the classroom. You know, the private schools have a lot of resources available to them. They had whiteboard, interactive whiteboards in the classrooms, and the students all knew how to use those. And they're uploading, you know, their flash drives to show slideshows in the classroom. And that wasn't available in the, you know, in the other schools. They also had a complete science lab, you know, with all these different equipment for experiments and things like that. And that wasn't available in other schools. So there's definitely differences as you look across the schools and what's available.

And is there like a kindergarten, elementary, middle, junior high school kind of model or how does it, like what ages and what, what happens at what age?

Right, so in South Africa, the primary schools are predominantly, they call it grade R or standard R, which is the same or equivalent to our kindergarten level. And so primary schools usually go to seventh grade, at least the schools that we've worked in. And then the secondary schools are 8 through 12th. Some of the boarding schools and the private schools might include the entire range of grade levels. In one physical structure, yes, in one physical structure, yeah. So they'll have, you know, grade R, kindergarten students all the way to, you know, high school students, 12th graders.

Gotcha. In the earlier ages, do like, do the kids primarily stay with one teacher throughout a variety of courses or how does that work?

Yes, so they typically stay with one teacher, but in the primary school, school they do switch teachers, similar to what we do in the United States for, for different subjects. And, but in the schools I work with, they also have languages, which I think is phenomenal. You know, they're teaching Zulu and English, for example, beginning and kindergarten up. So they have certain courses that are taught in English and others that are taught. They have a Zulu class.

I remember when I was there, we met with a number of traditional healers and we had to have translators, you know, to be able to communicate with them. And I think my numbers may be off, but I think it was something like there were 11 recognized languages or something in, in South Africa. And I thought, yes, boy. So, so how is, so is it primarily Zulu and English and other languages that are taught, or how does, how does a teacher manage the potential language

difficulties or differences in the area that we work? It's predominantly Zulu and then English. The schools that we Work with that are located near the townships. Their native language is predominantly Zulu. And so the students are learning English at the schools. So when we work with the educators, they are all able to communicate to us in English. We conduct our workshops in English. But, you know, we do have the edu. Some educators that are able to translate. In our first study abroad program, we had a phenomenal parent program where the parents all came after school and the faculty and the students were all able to share their stories about their educational experiences. Because in South Africa, storytelling is very popular. You know, it's a large component of their culture. And so we took that approach with this type of meeting. And it was amazing to see how many parents showed up. It was, you know, they were standing room only, they're outside the door. And there are a large number of fathers there, which the educators were very surprised because it's usually the grandmothers or the mothers that come in attendance. And so they just, you know, our students shared their stories about their educational experiences and ways to motivate the students and ideas for, you know, helping them at home with their studies as well.

Is there a. Are there, like, exams to transfer from one grade to another or to move on? Like what we might have as a. An SAT or an ACT for undergraduate studies, things like that. How does that work?

They do have exams within the schools. They have, I guess, similar to what we have, like a federal exam or a national exam that the students do take within the classes at the primary school level, too, and the secondary,

and then they. They pass those. Sort of like passing your constitution test, maybe, or something in Illinois. And then you get to progress on to what have you.

Right.

Is there expectations culturally or. Or educationally then to go beyond high school or, you know, into college or. Or other kinds of graduate or undergraduate kinds of work?

You know, just based on my experiences there, I do think there's a desire to. And that a lot of students are motivated, you know, I guess, you know, similar to United States. You know, there's always a challenge of funds that are available, you know, to matriculate to higher education as well. So I do think that that is a challenge for many individuals.

I know I was in Pretoria and went to their medical and allied health and nursing schools and just was very impressed with the caliber of faculty and the lab equipment and the kinds of things that they had. And I know that there is just, you know, I think they had some kind of scholarship model or something, because there's really a desire to bring in diverse populations, you know, people that had the ability to be successful, but maybe not out the means to be able to get in. So I thought that was just a, you know, very clever approach to it and being able to get engagement. And, you know, I think a lot of times there's also the. What's been called, like the brain drain that people may leave country to go study someplace else and then never come back kind of a thing. And this is sort of like a. A nice way to kind of keep people in country and, and provide good education, provide also, you know, trajectory for those that maybe didn't want to practice, but also enjoyed the teaching aspect and the professorial aspect. So I think that's really kind of a neat way to do it. And I think it seemed like again from the years ago that I was there, that there was such a dynamism and such a desire. It's nice to hear the parents being involved and engaged in their children's education and looking for their futures. So what are the kinds of. Of things? Are they established projects that you have going on now, or do you do new things when you have a new cohort of students come in or loop us back to what the student involvement's like when they do go over?

So we do have some standing projects that we implement each time that we study abroad. And that would be the professional development workshops with our partner school there. You know, we work with a local NGO that is dedicated to providing services to the school, and that's how we were able to make these connections. And so we provide at least five days, usually of professional development for several hours each day. And the students are responsible for designing those workshops. We give them the topics that they need to focus on. And during that seven weeks online course component, they had the opportunity to work collaboratively to begin developing workshop materials, exploring the topics that they'll be, you know, presenting in country. And so we do have that as a standard component. We also have been very fortunate to develop it in UO with the university and Peter Moritzburg on the University of KwaZulu Natal. And so we've been able to take students to the university and visit with faculty and students there. So that's usually a component that we include in their program. And then, you know, as I was sharing earlier, you know, the cultural excursions, those have really been based on student feedback and what prospective students might want to see why their time and country. And so we include those. So we do have a set itinerary that we try to include, but we do modify it each time, you know, to make Certain that it continues to be reflective of the student needs as well as the needs of our partners in South Africa.

That's amazing. That's, I think provides probably such richness. And I like the whole preparatory aspect before you know that it's all kind of here, here we go. And it's done in a very collaborative approach, which I think is terrific as well.

Do you.

I'm sure you do. See, and if you do, you know what, how's it dealt with? But what about students that have learning differences, you know, if there's disabilities or what we might think of as, you know, LD issues or special education needs and things like that? How are they managed in South Africa?

So that is a topic that we discussed last time I was there. And the educators that we work with at the particular primary school, they feel that they've had a lack of training in this area. And. And so we have tried to provide some training around it. It really depends on the background of our students when we go to. You know, as I shared earlier, students in our program have such diverse range of professional backgrounds, but study abroad programs are also open to all the students at the Chicago school. So we've taken students who are in counseling programs, we've taken students in ABA programs, you know, so the backgrounds of students are still diverse, but it also provides a really rich learning opportunity within country because they, you know, receive exposure to topics that they're studying in their own programs as well as additional topics that are included in the educational Psychology technology program. But it just depends on the students backgrounds and what they might feel comfortable conducting workshops on. The last time we went, they focused on ADHD and hunger. So how do you tell a student might just be disrupted because of a behavioral issue or maybe they, they haven't ate that morning, you know, and they only, you know, they won't receive a meal till lunchtime. Or is it really that they might have ADHD or ADD and how to diagnose that. So we did some training around that during our last visit because that was within the area students area specialty.

So that's great.

Are there school psychologists, so to speak, of what?

Like an analog of what we might think of as school psychologists here in the west that would help manage or assess those kinds of needs, be it psychoeducational or clinical.

Yes, so there are. And then the university that we partner with, they have a counseling psychology program. So I know some of their students work with the schools, local school, on different types of projects and service learning experiences.

Wow. It's just so Impressive. I. I just have to tip my hat to you, Kelly. That is just because there's so many different components to all of those kinds of things. And to have such a wonderful respect for, you know, being a guest in, in country and being able to work collaboratively with people, I think makes such a huge difference in, in sustainability of those kinds of programs. And it's not just the, you know, like some places, the proverbial parachuting in doing something and feeling good about it and then leaving. I mean, there's nothing wrong with feeling good about what you do, but the sustainability aspect and a lot of programs are really missing and to have this kind of a longevity with it. And I didn't realize that students from other programs could come along too. That's really clever. I think that makes it nice for the student, but then also provides certain kinds of things, depending upon that student's specialty, that, you know, could weigh in and make a difference in the, you know, in the program development and evolution of what you're doing as well. That's. That's great. So I have to ask, what do you think drives your passion in this area? I mean, you've started off in education, you've got multiple, you know, master's degrees and doctorate, and then to develop this kind of a program, to have the leadership aspect of it, but then also so sort of in a sense bringing the whole curriculum aspect to an entire another continent and country.

Yeah. So I just really believe it's important to continue providing students at the Chicago School international learning experiences, such as the study abroad program to South Africa. And the students who have traveled me to South Africa have shared how these experiences have helped them grow in their understanding of how to apply their program of studies into other contexts, as well as how these experiences have shaped their own professional identities and activities that they perform in their day to day workplaces. So I think it's just really vital for us to be able to continue to provide these experiences to students. And I've also developed such strong connections with our partners in South Africa. I consider maybe these individuals friends now. You know, we communicate through WhatsApp, you know, about different things. And I'm just really committed to continuing our collaborative work there. I'm just so inspired by each of the primary school teachers and university professors that I work with in South Africa. And I feel that it's just been such a reciprocal learning experience for all of us. And I just consider it myself, you know, a lifelong learner, and I just learned so much from each of my visits to South Africa. So I feel like each time I go there, I continue to grow, both personally and professionally through my experiences.

That's fantastic. So with kind of a little bit of a look back, let's say, over the, you know, last 10 or so years, is there anything that you wish you knew, Wish you knew then that, you know now, and if so, what would that be?

So when I think about the study of our programs in general, I think they're important because they provide learning experiences for our students that are really unique to anything that they experience in a classroom setting. And a lot of work and forethought just goes into developing these programs like we've talked about. So I think a valuable lesson for me from study abroad experiences per se, is that the first time we went abroad, we really tried to plan a lot of activities to give students the most out of their experiences. But I think it's important to consider not overwhelming the students, you know, and planning too many activities in one day so they're able to, you know, enjoy each schedule activity.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that's something I wish. Yeah.

It's almost like you need a summer abroad program kind of a thing, because there is. Yeah, you're sitting here, I'm here. There's so many things I want to see, I want to sample, I want to experience. But you also, you know, want to have some. Some depth, as well as the breadth of those kinds of things. So that's. That's always the challenge. Do you ever have someone go back again, or does it just not work out that way? I mean, you know, as relationships develop and things like that, is there any kind of continuation of any of the students in any academic or official or unofficial kind of way, or does that happen?

Yes, I know we have one student who has been trying to. To partner with the NGO that we work with there in order to help develop a counseling center. I don't think she's actually traveled back to South Africa, but I know she's kept in touch over the last few years on trying to make that project viable and to move forward. So that is that one example. You know, a lot of the students that we've taken in the past have become Facebook friends with a lot of the educators they work with. So they haven't traveled back to South Africa, but they have been able to remain in touch with them.

That's great.

And then a lot of our students extend their travel, so they. They don't think they might travel back to South Africa one day, or they don't know if they will have the opportunity to. So they either go a week early or stay a week later and explore other places.

That's brilliant.

Or Johannesburg.

That's a great idea. Wow.

Yes.

Yes. Well, and it's, it sort of makes, makes good sense with the fact that, you know, there's probably good technological skill sets in the students that come to your program and graduate from the program that they would use these, you know, social media platforms for other kinds of things as well. I mean, I oftentimes will post a, a PDF or a research paper or journal article or something on Facebook, you know, in a group that I manage or something. And it's, you know, it's a wonderful easy way to, you know, get comments and create community and, and share information back and forth. So that's, that's really terrific. That's brilliant.

Yeah. So we've also been able to host one of the faculty members here from the University of KwaZulu Natal. So, you know, we have been able to bring one faculty member to Chicago in order to provide her an overview of the Chicago school.

That's fantastic. Yeah. The reciprocity aspect of that is just terrific. I know that APA is working very diligently to also have, have memorandums of agreement with other international psychology associations and do that kind of back and forth. It's where it's feasible and affordable. People try to have, you know, share. Like if the president of the XYZ country can come to the APA annual meeting, then the APA president at the time tries to come to that country's annual meeting and things. And it's just a, it's a very nice almost kind of like a academic diplomacy, citizen diplomacy, you know, kind of things that we're all in this together. We all have our specialties. We're all, you know, focusing on similar kinds of needs just in different kinds of circumstances with different levels of resources. And I, I found oftentimes too the work that people are able to do from resource, what are called resource poor areas, the level of creativity that they bring to that is generalizable to a lot of the work that can be done here in the west as well too. I have a technical question for you too. So I know we were talking before we started recording that you are the mother of two fairly young children. How do you manage being chair of a department, managing all the work that you do, international travel and two children and all the other kinds of personal and professional responsibilities that you have? What's your trick for that? I'm dying to know.

I think I've just developed really good multitasking skills over the years. So as you shared in the intro, you know, I have two master's degrees. One of those was earned while I was completing my doctorate degree. So I graduated my doctorate degree the same time as my second master's. So I'm working full time. So, yes, I've just been able to manage my time very, I don't know, very well. You know,

that's, that's very impressive.

So, yeah, and you know, I'm passionate about certain things, so I make certain that there's time for it. Such as international work.

Yeah, that's good. Well, and I think at some level, I know your children are young, but I feel like with my children who are now much older, but around the time that I was doing the work that you were doing, that both my kids enjoy travel, my daughter in particular. And I think it's kind of a nice role modeling kind of thing to do, even though it's difficult on everybody's part when one parents away or what have you. But just as a. I'll share a personal note as well. And it's sort of coincidentally ironic that it was the same time 20 years ago when I was in South Africa. I had just a very, very busy year of travel and I missed my son's birthday, my daughter's birthday, my wife's birthday, my birthday and our anniversary. And I think, I think I tallied up. Yeah, I was really in the doghouse that year. And I think I played up. I had like flown and been around like a hundred and twenty thousand miles within calendar 1999. And you know, and my wife was not very happy about it, you know, and so it's sort of like, yes, you know, you're absolutely right. And it was just one of the, I mean, it's sort of like one of those things where, you know, I wasn't designing and picking places to go away and be. They were just certain kinds of, you know, either conferences or invitations or projects or whatever that, you know, needed some attention. And you know, then it became one of these things that it's sort of like, okay, now I need to, I need to better manage my time. I need to, you know, start learning how to, you know, say, well, here's a priority and here's something else that I might be able to hand off to someone else to be able to manage rather than myself. But, but it really, it's a challenge. And especially when you've got loved ones and family and what have you that you have to take care of as well as colleagues and students. So I tip my hat to you. That's.

Thank you.

That's very impressive. So this has just been terrific. And I don't want to take too much of your time because I know that you have 16 other things going on this afternoon. But just in wrapping up the last few sets of questions, what piece of advice would you give to someone that's interested in starting an international activity or starting an NGO or getting involved in the kind of, you know, if they're a faculty member somewhere and they want to start a study abroad program? Do you have some nuggets that you think are kind of key things that you'd like to share?

Sure. So what I think has been most valuable in the development of the study abroad program that I have to South Africa is just the partnerships that we have established. I don't think we've been able to develop a sustainable program over the years without partnering with Ookalapa Community Outreach, which is the NGO that we work with in Peter Maritzburg. And out of our partnership with them, we've been able to develop a strong connection to the primary school that we work with and the university that we've been fortunate enough to establish an MOU with. So these partnerships, I think, have just been the most instrumental for in country experiences, as well as just providing opportunities for collaborative learning experiences for both faculty and students. And I found that having these strong partnerships in which all stakeholders are really invested in ensuring this success of the international activities is just really imperative. And I think it's important to understand that you aren't going to establish these relationships sometimes virtually. They might start off that way, but I think, you know, just being patient and proactive and helping establish these partnerships is really important, as well as just having multiple, sometimes face to face conversations over a period of time. It's really important in just showing that you're committed to the project and as well as to develop those necessary partnerships. I know in Africa it's been really imperative for us to have face to face communications, especially at the beginning stages of these programs, in order to make, you know, for them to understand that we're very committed and dedicated to the program and that we want it to be sustainable and also that we're not going in there and, you know, imposing our Western views, you know, that we want it to be a mutually beneficial partnership for all individuals involved.

That's great. I really like the aspect of respect and sort of the mutuality of it, the peership of it. And I think you're absolutely right. The face to face time with it. You know, it's nice to have the WhatsApp, it's nice to have the social media like we talked about for maintaining relationships, maintaining the momentum, sharing information, that sort of a thing. But boy, I know of no one that's been able to use that as the first steps. You know, those are the cultivation steps and the maintaining steps. They're not the formative steps or the foundational steps. But you know, it's kind of a mutual vetting process.

Process.

I mean, I've, I've been in country a few times to places where, you know, it seemed all rainbows and butterflies and you spend some time there and you start to kind of scratch the surface and go, hey, wait a minute, you know, something, something isn't quite, you know, as it seemed or what have you. So I mean it's, it's a good mutual vetting process. You know, just in any kind of important long term relationship to be able to see nothing's going to be perfect. But the things that aren't perfect do I feel comfortable with. I feel like, you know, is there something that we can bring to the table that we can be helpful with or are there some things that just, you know, don't seem like a good fit and you know, let's not make a fit happen where it's not going to be successful or not going to be good for both parties. So I agree. I think that's really critical. So with this body of work that you have and this amazing CV of your accomplishments, what's the future like look like?

What's for, for both your projects?

What do you have in store? And how about for yourself?

Yeah, so in regards to projects, you know, I just plan to continue the program in South Africa as long as possible, you know, but I'm hoping to also expand my work to other areas. So currently I'm collaborating with a colleague, the same colleague that travels with me to South Africa on a possible program in Botswana. And we, yeah, we recently traveled there and, and we began to develop partnerships there. So we had the opportunity to visit different cultural sites and meet with local NGOs and universities in order to begin formalizing these partnerships. And then, you know, our hope is to develop MOUs with several of the universities that we met with and to also develop partnerships with primary and secondary schools. And our ultimate goal would be to, you know, offer study abroad programs for students there and float experiences, but also have these long term sustainable partnerships that were able to Again, establish collaborative learning experiences between faculty and students.

Wow, that sounds great. Tiffany Masson also has. Does she have some projects that she's got in Botswana? Is that what got you to Botswana or is that just a coincidence?

No, the faculty member that I work with, he's actually from bots, Botswana. So.

Yeah, small world, as they say.

Yeah, yeah. So he's. He's had a passion about being able to formalize some, you know, formulate a program, something similar to what we've established in South Africa.

That's great.

Swan as well, you know, and there's opportunities for cross collaborative experiences between South Africa and Botswana because a lot of them, you know, belong to similar organizations. So that would be the goal too, is to be able to establish something, you know, across.

That's great. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. So is that what's next for you as well too, plus the chairing the department and things like that?

Yes, yes. That all keeps me very busy. So, you know, in the department outside of international work, we try to be very cutting edge and innovative in the way we develop the program. So we've been implementing virtual reality and we're exploring AI and technology trends to make certain that our coursework is relevant and reflective of what students will experience in their own workplace settings. And it's been very positive. Just to share a brief story of students reactions to it. They had the opportunity to explore some virtual reality goggles, 360 virtual reality camera, and some apps at our last in person residency in Chicago. And it was so impactful to some of the students, they actually went out and bought some of the inexpensive goggles for their own students and took it to the classroom to supplement some of the lessons they were teaching. So so far it's had a positive impact on our students and I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do to be even more creative in these areas.

That's neat.

I mean, that.

That's as exciting as it sounds as it is fun. So, yeah, that's. That is great. Well, bravo. Well, gosh, I just, again, I just so appreciate you taking out the time today to be able to talk about this, Kelly. I've just. I've looked forward to this. I. I've known little bits and pieces of your work, so it's nice for me just personally to be able to spend this kind of time with you and to be able to go a little deeper and, and learn more about kind of how things have come about and, and kind of what the future holds. So if listeners are likewise as inspired as. As I am.

What are some good ways for them

to learn more about the programs or to get in touch with you or learn about the programs in South Africa, we can put all these, if there's links and things, we can pull these in the show notes. But for those that aren't online, maybe listening to this just on audio. What are, what are some of those?

Yeah, so sure. And I'll send you the contact information. I would say the most, the easiest way to get in touch with me would be by email. And my email is ktores T O R R E S at the Chicago School Edu. And I'm able to answer questions about the program or any work that I'm doing. I do a lot of research as well, so I can answer questions about that or the study abroad programs that we're offering. And then, you know, if listeners have specific questions about the program or how to apply the program, they're also able just to contact the university's admissions office, who's able to provide them information as well as they're able to put them directly in contact with me or any of our faculty and staff.

Good. And we'll do some research and get those direct links to make it real easy for folks too, in the show notes once our show's up.

So.

Well, fantastic, Kelly. Well, thank you so much. I just again, appreciate your generosity and just really have to tip my hat to you for, you know, all the things that you've been able to accomplish and honestly, I think a relatively concentrated short amount of time.

So.

So I need to switch my brand of coffee to whatever you drink or, or whatever. So, so thank you so much. It's. It's so. Yeah, it's very inspirational. And just on a personal note, it's, it's nice to be able to, like I said, get to know you a little bit better and, and look forward to we, you and I. This has all been virtual. So thanks to technology. So you and I, at some point, hopefully can meet up here in Chicago and see what you've been up to at that point in time too. So thank you so much for this time today and best of luck with the continuing success.

Thank you.

Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot, LLC. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website at lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer. This podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile.

Thanks and until next time.