Jodi Wellman on How to Live More Fully and Intentionally

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the nonprofit I founded, the center for Global Initiatives. The center is an all volunteer organization so there are no salaries and thus all tax deductible donations can go to the work. While our key country partner is in Tanzania, our work is global and generally focused in the areas of education and healthcare. We also help others to get their nonprofits started or augment others project based initiatives. It's our goal to open source humanitarian intervention and to help make it easier for others to do more good in the world. We are proud to have been ranked a great nonprofit every year since 2011 and to have achieved a Platinum level rating by Guidestar Links. In this episode's show, notes will take you to published articles on our outcomes, a number of helpful tools, and downloadable resources which are all free always. Please Visit us at CenterForGlobalInitiatives.org and be sure to watch our video at Patreon.com DrChrisStout to learn more. Thanks. Welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. How many Mondays do you have left? Statistically, we all get about 4,000 Mondays in our lifetime. So if you're halfway through your life, you might have roughly 2,000 Mondays to go. The good news is that you are in charge of how you want to spend those days. The question is, will you be toiling away at a job that you hate, or will you be creating a career that you love? Will you choose to scroll mindlessly for hours a day or or will you pursue hobbies and travel that light you up? Will you be dreading the inevitable end? Or will you be living your life in full in a way that allows you to meet the Grim Reaper with a smile? These are the existential ponderances in which Jodi Wellman thrives. Jodi is a speaker, author, executive coach, and facilitator of Living Lives Worth living. She founded 4000 Mondays to help make the most of the time that we are lucky to have above the ground. With over 25 years of corporate leadership experience, most recently, as Senior Vice President of Operations at a leading health and lifestyle organization, Jodi has led private CEO advisory boards and corporate teams to work well and live even better. Jody has a Master's of Applied Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, where she's also an assistant instructor and facilitator in the Penn Resilience Program. She is an ICF Professional Certified Coach and a Certified Professional Coactive Coach. Jody has been featured in the New York Times, Oprah, Daily, Fast Company, cnbc, Forbes, Psychology Today, and the Los Angeles Times, just to name a few. Jody's TEDx talk, How Death can bring you back to Life has over 1.3 million views and was the 14th most watched TEDx talk in 2022. Her new book, you only die how to make it to the end with no Regrets, made Adam Grant's summer reading list as a next big idea club must read. And we'll be doing a deep dive into it and her work in this episode. Hey, Jodi, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on and I feel like I should say I've been dying to meet you and I

will high five you to that. Thank you.

All right, so I just, I so enjoyed your book. I so enjoy your website. I mean, people will put links galore in the show notes and whatnot, but I don't feel like I have a great grasp of your origin story. So maybe for those myself and those that may maybe don't know about you and your work, could you share maybe the starters like Jody in the early years, college and then thereafter, what brought you to where you are today?

Hey, yeah, I'll do the, the flyby tour. How about of that? And yeah, origin. So I was born and raised near Toronto. That might explain if you're wondering, is it Minnesota or is it Canada? Yeah, if I say about it's Canada, about.

Okay.

Yep. And we're sorry. And my husband and I moved to Chicago about 17 years ago and we thought we were going to be there short term and loved it and ended up staying and now we live in Palm Springs. And so by, you know, rewinding the tape back in the Toronto area, you know, I got into the health club business for the first 17 years and worked as an executive running health clubs, a national health club team. And that was what brought me to Chicago. And you know, the whole time, though, you know, in life when you can be, you're doing a thing and you're doing a thing and you're enjoying it and you're doing it well. But we are multifaceted. I was always intrigued by this absurdity that death is on the horizon for all of us. And here we are, we're working hard to love our lives. At the time, you know, working in the fitness business, it was all about, you know, enjoy and have more energy and vibrancy. And it was all sort of like this bizarro. Yeah, but then that's going to be juxtaposed against we're going to be loving our life today and then we could be dead tomorrow. That was always interesting to me. Shortly after I moved to Chicago, my mom passed away. So she was seven, no, 70. My goodness, I've just aged her. She was 58. And you know, this is the thing where I am very clear that the impetus for me was really started around pursuing this topic of, you know, carpe diem, live before we die because of her. And it wasn't because she died relatively early, weirdly enough. It was because as I was cleaning out her apartment after she died, she had like the vestiges of all the dreams and hopes and plans and goals and business ideas in her desk and in her laptop that she didn't really take action on. And it was. And I knew about some of these things, right? Like I knew she was writing another short story or writing a draft of a book or doing business cards for her hiking stick business because she was hand carving them. And she was so creative and had all these cool ideas but didn't execute. And part of it was because of fear. I get it. And the other large part was just this idea like, well, I'll do it later, I'll send the manuscript out later. And she didn't have a later. And so that for me, as I was going through what I call the land of dormant intentions, you know, her place, it was so sad. And I can also be cheeky about it. It was like this kick in the pants for me of like, oh, honey, like, you got dreams too. Do not let them die with you. So that was a big starter. And then, you know, shortly after, well, shortly, relatively speaking, a few several years later, I went to the Master's of Applied Positive psychology program at UPenn. And that was huge for me because studying positive psychology I knew was going to just be life expanding. But I indulged this topic of Memento Mori, which is remembering we must die. So I did my thesis on it. And that was when they blew the doors open. I was like, well, now there is no turning back. So for 10 years after I left the leadership roles in the health club business. I worked for 10 years doing leadership development and executive coaching, and that was good and great, too, except I just knew I wanted something more in touch with what made my heart beat fast. You know, in life, when you're like. But there's this thing I'm passionate about, and it's like every kid's dream to do what you love. So I. I kind of. I found a way to make that happen after I did all the research around it.

That's great. Do you feel that your mom's passing was sort of the catalyst then, to get to UPenn and to pursue. I mean, because you could pursue a variety of things. You know, psychology is kind of the variety pack of flavors and whatnot. But you chose, you know, UPenn was Seligman. Did you study under Marty?

Yeah, yeah. Marty Seligman was definitely. And we got to. I mean, I consider that to be just one of the biggest coups of the experience, learning from the. From the father of. Yeah. Psychology. You're right. Yeah. Yeah.

So. And then from that was the goal then, to get into executive coaching, was it, you know, kind of you had a, you know, probably a nice vista in front of you of opportunities and choices and perhaps even challenges. What then spurred you to take the route that you chose or routes. Because, as you mentioned, multifaceted. You are not a person of singular, you know, focus and emphasis. So tell us about that. How did you. What. What was before you, and how did you make selections and choices?

Yeah, such a good. Good question. And I love looking back on it because it's just these funny little moments in life. You can either take the path or not take the path. And that, you know, is actually really important in this sort of story about, like, living like we mean it. It's not leaving a path that you want to go down untread. So I had been. So, yeah, 17 years, health club career, and I was itching. You know, I. Have you ever been in a situation where it's good, it's fine, and it's just not enough for you? And you don't know what else to do, though. And so instead of figuring that out, what I did was I just hoped. I hoped to be plucked out of my, you know, disenchantment? I mean, I have. The good news is that I'm pretty sure I, like, I faked it pretty well. I was so engaged, and yet I was hoping for something different and better, but I didn't know. And I wanted to be headhunted out and helicoptered.

Out.

And I just. This is silly, but I have this stapler story. I think about where I was in my office and I was just, you know, doing my job, stapling a couple things, and my stapler ran out. Okay, no big deal. And I went and went to the supply closet, loaded in a row of staplers into my stapler. And it was this distinct moment where I said to myself, I'd better not be here by the time this row of staples runs out. And it was like, like, game on. You know? But here's the weird thing, Chris is. But I like, skipped back to my office that day, and then I did diddly squat about it because, again, I was not. I wasn't in charge of it. I wasn't. I was. I was hoping something would happen to me. And then a year later, I ran out of staples and I felt like a bag of dirt. And I reloaded it again and I was like, no, but for real this time. I will not be here by the time this broke.

And it.

Fast forward another year. So I have good experience in experiment, extending your welcome, you know, of like my expiry date, where I didn't, I didn't. I needed to figure it out. And so, to be honest, timing wise, this was after my mom had passed and I had the voice of reasons swimming around me going, honey, life's short. What are you doing? And it actually caused for me quite a bit of angst, this sort of dual tension about knowing better. Like, I. I don't want to end up like my mom. You know, I didn't think I was going to be dying in my, you know, mid-30s, late-30s, but you never know. So then I did leave. I got a coach who helped me see that I wanted to coach and get into leadership development. And so I made a shift. And I did that for 10 years, and it was really fantastic. You know, I needed more a sense of autonomy and independence and creative flexibility. And all those values matter to me. So I got to do that. And I worked with a business partner and we started our own firm doing leadership coaching. And it was so great. And I always had that. That niggling, though, of this topic of Memento Mori. I knew that it was something I wanted to. I wanted to figure out how to do it. But I'll be honest with you, I was scared because I thought, well, how am I going to talk to companies about the fact that everyone's going to die? You know, how am I going to talk about death?

Which is like the number one fear. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, that'll be popular.

Right? Right. Why am I not getting booked? But the good news, again, was that it was through all that that I realized I want more knowledge, I want more credibility, and I want more confidence. And that's what made me apply for grad school. And that was then the. That was the boost that I needed, was this, that. And you. You can appreciate this with all of your kind of educational background, pursuits. It's like some of us just sometimes need the empirical evidence or that validation that, okay, this is a thing. It's more than just a lovely philosophy to seize the day. It's that there is science around the idea about scarcity of time that can help motivate us. And once I felt like, well, that's something I can package and talk to companies about, and that is something I can very confidently use, knowing with my corporate background together. So that's. That's really how it kind of all flowed together. The stapler to the. To the coaching, and then the realization of, no, no. How ironic would it be if here I am the one studying and believing in and trying to encourage other people to live the life you've longed for while you're lucky to be alive, and I'm the one not doing it. That sounded horrible, right?

Yeah, A little disingenuous. So. And now you've sort of created for all of our listeners this stapler totem. You know, when people see that stapler, they're going to think back. You know, Jody had this experience, and I just reloaded the stapler, and I really hate doing what I'm doing. And, you know, TikTok, we're going to see how long the stapler will run. So I would imagine, too. Tell me, would it give you perhaps a greater empathic appreciation of those that you work with and coach, too, to kind of go through that, you know, okay, I've got the. I. I've had a pseudo epiphany. I've realized that, you know, that the clock is ticking. I need a, you know, you know, get on my horse and, you know, get things going. But, you know, 3,365 days later, oh, you know, I realized that the clock is ticking, you know, and it's just Groundhog Day that you kind of just keep. Keep repeating. But, you know, maybe. Maybe no rinse in that repeat. So does that come out, like when you've worked with people coaching wise or. Yeah, tell us about that.

Absolutely. You know, I did the one. On one coaching effort, 10 years or so, and I no longer do one on one, but I do group work and, you know, keynotes and workshops. So there are people everywhere, right? And most of what I do is informed by the individual stories that we, I think we commonly share. And I think some of us try to hide the fact because we might present our most successful external versions and we don't talk about our fears as easily. And so I love that, like, I am, I will always be my very first client. You know, like, I see I, having experienced that stuckness, the fear, the taking life for granted, you know, as I refer in my TedX, I had, you know, 10 years of eating disorders because that was my really wayward way of coping with my. My own lack of control. So I, I mean, I'm like, yeah, I've raised my hand, been there, done that. And I do then see very clearly this notion that we have even to, to this day, like, I don't have this licked. And I just, I never pretend to say that I've got life nailed because I need to be reminded to live daily. So I love that this is just a really ongoing relationship with engaging and disengaging and taking life for granted and then all of a sudden getting coming back in and realizing the sanctity of time. So I need to be reminded every week that, oh, my countdown, my countdown's on. Like this week I have 1,809 Mondays left as far as average goes. And I need that to say, hon, you know, that thing that you've been thinking about, what are you waiting for? You know, and I can, I can rely on my experiences. And it does help me, of course, relate to other people. In the book, I use other people's anecdotes. I name them. No one, no one has been revealed their dirty secrets. But you know, the little stories about someone who would regret, you know, not making up with their father or not learning the tango or not booking that family reunion trip to Prague, like, I use other people's stories because it's all, it's all one shared experience, don't you think?

Yeah, absolutely. I was going to say it's, you know, the, the anonymity, you know, never. Nevertheless, it feels like, how did Jody know about this? This happened to me. How do you know? So I think it speaks to the universality of these kinds of things. And I think you picked, you know, just, you know, wonderful ways to deconstruct that and to have this, you know, kind of universal thing. This is not a unique thing. You know, anybody that's conscious, you know, has these Kinds of experiences. I want to. I want to get into your book and then I want to really, like, unpack a ton of it. But one of the other things I want to talk about before we dive into that is 4000 Mondays. So love it. I know what it's all about. People that have not had a chance to check it out yet. Could you share how it came about and what it all about?

Yeah. Yeah. So 4,000 Mondays is the name of the company that I started, which, you know, is for speaking and writing. And I have resources. I write a Monday blog post and it's 4000 is the. The. The spoiler alert is that we roughly get 4,000 weeks to live. And so that for me was like, well, there's a number that's fascinating and that's designed to be the Wake up. And then, you know, the. You Only die once. How to make it to the End with no Regrets is the book that was born out of this work and it was out of my thesis. So it's. It's based in research, but I promise that it's unboring in the way that I represent this information. And that was, yeah, that I knew that that needed. I needed to take my research thesis and make it way snarkier and way more fun and way more applicable. So there's science, but it's wrapped with, you know, silliness and action and, you know, back to the real stories of real people and, like, the reality of it all. So, yeah, it was. It was like a foregone conclusion, like, oh, this is going to be part of what I do. I can't not. I think that's actually been thematic, like, I think for you, because I know you pursue lots of different things. You know, sometimes when you just feel like, dare you call something's a calling or just this grab where you're like, I can't not go for it. Like, I can't not. It's not even up to me anymore, almost, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's very true. And I think, you know, it's a fortunate kind of thing. I think some people maybe kind of fall into it, you know, kind of Mr. Magoo inadvertently. And other people, you know, like myself and perhaps you, from what you've described thus far interpersonally, you know, you kind of have to do it and design it and remind yourself and create structures and scaffolds in your life to be able to either make it happen or make it a little less, you know, less friction, make it easier to happen. You also, I can't remember if it was your website, I can't remember. But what you had, you had mentioned Kevin Kelly's life countdown. I can't remember if that was in the book or not, but could you share what that's all about with listeners who may not yet be familiar with it?

Oh right. You know, I am honestly not familiar with Kevin Kelly, but I can speak to this idea of a life countdown in concept just. And you can tell me if I've hit, hit the tail on the donkey or actually because this idea about temporal scarcity is the scientific underpinning. You know, it's like in life when we recognize that something is rare or it's temporary, kind of a limited time only situation, we, we tend to pay attention to that and all of a sudden we see that thing as way more valuable than if it was to be unlimited in supply. I mean, you know, talk about the whole supply chain issue. During COVID everything really mattered. Some things that we couldn't get. So when we look at our life and we do the countdown and so that's where I take the 4000 Mondays and I get more granular. Like I have this like a simple calculator on my website where we can plug in your information. Like for men might live on average to 78, women might live on average till 83. Your country will vary. But what is that countdown? And it's that scarcity approach which I realize like in a traditional coaching sense or in a traditional self help sense that's usually taboo. Right? It's like, well we would way rather talk about abundance than scarcity. And I'd be like, yeah, it sounds better but it doesn't work as well unfortunately. You know, we need the pain version rather than the pursuit of pleasure sometimes. So this is that discomfort that's intentional, slight discomfort. Like I don't want anyone sitting on a pin. But I do want us to have a little bit of like a, a little bit of a boost of like oh my gosh, right. My time is wow. It's like I, I did a, a workshop last night. It was virtual. So people were entering into the chat their number of Mondays left and how that made them feel. I always ask that. And you know, of course some people, you know, when they're like 2700 left out of 4000, they're like, oh, it's. I think it's a good number to work with. But most of us when we're maybe at the halfway mark, ish, start to look at it and go, I Think I need to take my life more serious or less serious depending on your, you know, your jam.

Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So I don't know if I've gotten near what you were talking about at Life.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, a million years ago I used to go to the teds back when Richard Saul Wurman was doing them in the, in the 90s. And I had an opportunity to meet Kevin Kelly. And Kevin's like the, I forget he's got kind of a cool CEO kind of name. It's not the E, he's like chief, not evangelist either, but some you know, kind of cool hip thing with Wired magazine. And Kevin Kelly is just sort of like, you know, as Tim Ferriss refers to him as like the world's most interesting man. He does a variety of things, has for all of his life and just fascinating character. And I'm also part of the Long now foundation out in San Fran and I'm also a big fanboy of Stuart Brand. When I was a child, the whole Earth catalog came out and it was sort of like a paper analog version of the World wide web in 1968 sort of thing. So anyway, Kevin's point is he has a thing. I'll put a, put links in in the LinkedIn piece in the show notes called My Life Countdown that I stumbled across and then I wrote a piece of like I probably pulled in the Living a Life in Full Brand to it. But you know what, how much time you need to ask yourself the question how much time do I have left? So it's very resonant, you know, with kind of what you're talking about. So what Kevin does. And I'll tell you what Stuart does, Kevin, this is, this is a little too hardcore for me. But he did very similar to what you're talking about like with you know, how many days. And so he did the math and of course he kind of did it probably he looked at his bi or his, his genetic profile to kind of see, you know, likelihood of, you know, death to you know, the 10th minute. But he has a timer on his, you know, on his screen, on his, on his computer every day. So when he's on his machine he sees, you know, and it's like, you know, counting down like you know, 48, 47, you know, just like, oh my gosh. So that I couldn't manage. But one of the other things that he and Stuart talked about was like Stuart Brand, golly molly, he's got to be in his 80s and just a frickin fire Brand and put some stuff. If you're not, if you're, if you or audience members aren't familiar with him, but he's just super cool guy. But anyway, he talks about do any kind of project worth doing. Writing a book, creating a piece of art, making a documentary, whatever it might be. Takes probably five years to do it. To do it right. These are big projects. This isn't writing a blog. These are big projects. So I am X years old. I have Y years left if I'm going to live to Z years of age. So how many five year blocks do I have, you know, to be able to do that? And that's sort of like his variation of Derek Sivers. You know, if it's, if it's not hell yes, then it's no. It's like if he can't get, do what it is in, you know, whatever the opportunity is within that five year block of time, like he doesn't have enough, then that gives him a tool to, you know, differentiate. Okay, I've got three really great opportunities, but I've got 10 years, you know, in which I think I could accomplish them. Yeah, I've got to pick, I got to pick two. You know, I think it's a, it's another interesting way to kind of, you know, unpack that and make choices and decisions. You've been talking about, you know, what's, what can be that spur what can be that, you know, you don't have to sit on a pin. I like that. But you know, what, what are the kinds of things for like, you know, a lot of the rest of us mortals that maybe need that little bit of gumption and being able to get go and these superheroes like the Kevin Kelly's and Stuart Brands, you know, are able to, you know, do these other kinds of things to say. And you know, it varies too. If you're in your 30s, it's a lot different than if you're 60s or if you're in your, you know, 70s or 80s too. So. But I think to your point, it's like regardless of where you are on that scale.

Yeah.

You know, what do you, what are you doing today? What are you doing tomorrow?

Yes. Oh, I love that so much. You realize like I am just so giddy over here listening. I know all these examples and what we're talking about are just creative ways to jar ourselves to look at this scarcity of time. And for some of us it could be doing that. The mathematic gymnastics. Right about same idea about like, if it's five years to do a project. Some people take really big trips, like overseas maybe once every five years. And when you stop and you go, well, that might mean that I only have 12 left or 7 left or 4 left, like, like, what does that mean? Because we have this notion. Let's just talk for a second about our instinct is to deny death, right? It's very distasteful. I mean, like, it's a crappy reality. And so we're not idiots psychologically. We found ways to just. Deacon, deny it. And we do it honestly for just to say, just to save ourselves. However, existential psychologists make it clear that we're actually not saving ourselves. We're actually unwittingly creating sometimes even more anxiety. The willingness to go there. The willingness to acknowledge and say, yeah, I have this many years, slash Mondays, slash five year increments, slash, however you want to slice and dice. Like this many Thanksgiving dinners with my aging parents, or this many summers until my kids don't want to be seen with me anymore, or this much, you know, this many great canvases I will paint because at this rate, I'm doing one every three years. Whatever it is. That's where we. The willingness to acknowledge the deadline can be the thing that helps us stop procrastinating. And, you know, but when we do this thing, which is, you know, it's like we're swatting away an annoying fly, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do it later. And we have like. The postponement of our existence is one of just the saddest things, because that's precisely what I saw with my mom, right? Dreams, right? Dreams were there. Like, sometimes people don't even have dreams. And that's just a different story. And they can still be cultivated, but when you have an idea, and I don't care if it's grandiose, I don't care if it's just silly and remote or silly like whatever that thing is. If you want to do it when you find yourself saying, I'll do it when, and you fill in the blanks when work dies down, or when the kids leave the house, when kids go to college, or when I retire, or when I lose weight, all the things that are contingent on later, I just want to take you and I want to lovingly slap you and say, like, not. And it's also funny because then there's this presupposition that that means that you might die by then. And let's be honest, like, you're probably not gonna die in the next few years, you know, and so like, literally, statistically, you probably won't be. So I'm not necessarily thinking, do it. Go learn how to speak Croatian and take that course, take that trip because you might die. I'm actually thinking about it, like, what about your life today? Like, who is standing up and taking a stand for the life you're living now? Because these are the days and the weeks and the months that are just passing us by and becoming indiscernible from one another for a life that we are just bagging for later. And I feel like you might actually get to do all that stuff later and you're gonna have one hell of a retirement. And good for you. But what about, what about this decade? What about this year? What about this month? You know, let's be careful that we're not postponing it. And that's why stop denying the death idea. Let's come back and use that as that unfortunate but real spark plug.

Yeah, I agree. It reminds me, I've, I've done some talks kind of on the periphery of this kind of conversation that we're having. And I kind of refer to it, you know, kind of default to the medical. I call it the pox of the Antilles. And it's, you know, I'm going to wait like, and it's the same list you just said. I'm going to wait until I graduate. I'm going to wait until I get my first job. I'm going to wait until I, you know, get married and wait until I get divorced and the untils start to add up. And then all of a sudden you're at a point where, oh, you know, that, that timer on Kevin Kelly's desktop ran out and, you know, that's all she wrote, folks. So. Yeah, well, I, Jodi, I think this is a great kind of backgrounder for teeing up for the book and I want to start to go into a deeper dive into that. But before I do, I want to share what some notable others have had to say about it. So, Adam Grant, number one New York Times best selling author and host of the podcast Rethinking, said this book is a breath of fresh air. Drawing on her training in positive psychology, Jody Wellman has an utterly delightful way of making us smile while making us think. It's a surprisingly fun and fruitful read about making the most of our scarce time. Arthur C. Brooks, number one New York Times best selling author of Build the Life youe Want, co authored with Oprah Winfrey, said, how strange that death is the most normal part of life yet so often a taboo subject in you only die once. Jody Wellman wants to change that and to help all of us live better, happier lives. And Michael Bungay Stanier, best selling author and also a prior guest on the show, said, this is one of the very best books I've read about creating a well lived life. It's practical and sassy, has both depth and a light touch and made me laugh and think and act. So. Jody. Boy, all high praise from some pretty heavy hitters.

Thank you.

I think I know the answer to this question, but. But what was the goal in taking your experiences, taking 4,000 Mondays and putting it all together in a book?

What a cool question. And thanks by the way, for reading those. I've never had anybody read that out loud and it just feels very warm and fuzzy. It's a funny experience. Yeah.

This show could be a half hour longer if I read all the rest.

Well, why don't we just take that half hour?

Okay. Yeah, we'll do a round two. Jody's hit Parade.

Oh my goodness. No. The goal. This is such a good question because I've thought a lot about this as I have been now it's six months since the book came out and I've had an interesting journey of am I happy with the outcome? Which is a funny question. But you know, a lot of people will ask when you've accomplished something because they make this big assumption that good for you. For example, in this case the book came out, you must just be so darn satisfied. And the answer of course is yes, fundamentally. And like for you, I think about your really cool and inspiring illustrious list of some of your life accomplishments. Right. And as we all know through the science. But it's not always intuitive. You know, many of us were, we dupe ourselves into thinking that it the running through the finish line, that's gonna feel good when it's actually the process of building and the progress we make along the way towards the goal and then some of the tidbits. So I will tell you that the goal for the book, I was initially thinking of it as twofold, that I wanted to get all this stuff out and have it be part of this business. So I want to use it to create more speaking opportunities. So part of it was very pedantic. Like this is logistical business stuff. And it was of course about this is like my mission in life, as nerdy as it might sound like this is back to me saying earlier, Chris, that like I can't not do this. I'm somehow. It's almost like. Not that I am possessed, but some days I feel possessed, but I want to just. I have to stand on the mountaintops and scream this. And so if I can't scream it, well, then I will at least write it. Actually, I did do the audiobook, So I did. You know, that's 10 hours and six minutes of this. But so it was very much about getting it out. And now that it's out and I've gotten, like, caught up in a little bit initially of the. Well, then how does one measure success? I'm not looking at book sales. I'm not looking at, you know, PR hits. It's very. It's very potentially intoxicating. But that's not what this is about. Every time I get a note from somebody, random DM on Instagram or on LinkedIn or through my contact form on my website, and I get to hear about someone who's made a choice in their life to do anything that's widening or deepening, you know, with more vitality or more meaning, or they've just decided to go for it, or that they are. You know, they're. They're not dead yet. They say, you know, I'm older and I'm still going for it. I'm finishing college. Or I decided to book that trip, or I've decided to apply for this retreat, or I, like, I'm actually out of breath right now because I get swept up in this idea that, like, sometimes all it takes is this reminder and a nudge, and we need it consistently, unfortunately. But if I was able to help make that happen through this book and help someone make a choice that doesn't have to be a big scary one. Not everybody needs to quit their job or get divorced or move to Portugal. No, I mean, if you need to do those things, rah, rah, do it. But for most of us, it's about, wow, like, I joined the gym. You know, I did it, I've been putting it off, or I blew the dust off my journal, and I'm gonna start writing the poetry book again. And the stories are just so uplifting. And again, I don't care what, like, each person's story. I actually am absurdly curious like you are. Like, I find them fascinating. Last night, back to the aforementioned workshop I did. One woman was, like, talking about how she, you know, regretted not posing nude for this famous artist back in the day when she was in her 20s, and she's currently in her 60s. And so now she's using that as this impetus to be like, I am no longer living a life that I would look back on and think, why didn't you just go for it? So she's going for it and now she gave a few examples of how she's actively, you know, going back to school. And so anyway, I. All I'm getting and I'm going to get swept up in everyone else's lives, which is the point is that I want us to wake the F up to life.

Yeah.

Because it is so fleeting. Yeah, you get.

I mean that's so cool to hear because I mean, from the mechanic side of books, you know, gaming sales and stuff and rankings and stuff is just, you know, all a big, you know, mess. And people can, you know, Google and see a million ways to Thursday to see, you know, how that stuff can be manipulated. But you can't manipulate these kinds of comments from people. And it's sort of like you get to get what I refer to as emotional royalties. You know, you get to get people that, that are so impacted to then take the time, you know, to grab their phone or sit at their computer, their machine or their computer and you know, take the time to say, God, I gotta, I gotta reach out to Jody. This was just, you know, finally, you know, I, you know, got off sitting on that tack and got, you know, got out to doing it. So I mean that's so fulfilling. And oftentimes such a VO for an author. You know, it's one thing to see books say, but you know, you see the metrics are book sales, not readership, not book life changingness. So I mean you're, you are very fortunate to be able to, you know, get those because that's, you know, that's gold, that's treasure. So.

Well, thank you. I just wrote down on my sticky of the day emotional royalties because that's a really cool way of putting it. And I, and I recognize now like I feel a bit selfish because well, I guess like every time someone volunteers they say it's one of the most selfish things you can do and it's a win win. So I don't mean for this to. Yeah, it's not about my experience is me but I feel like it sounds a bit more self centered about, you know, I get good knowing that I've

had, I don't take it that way. I ask you the question and it's sort of like your book. I mean I'm gonna put words in your mouth, but it also sort of like, and there's much More to it. It than the distillation, I'm going to say. But it's almost like your little manifesto, you know, to be able to say I have this, this, this piece of work that is scientifically based but does not at all read like, like anybody's master's thesis and is so engaging and so fun. I mean, I found myself after I'd gone through it, like, just kind of going back and flipping to like some of your illustrations and stuff and, you know, kind of showing my wife. I said, this is why Jody's so funny. Read this. You know, so it's just, just and it. And to take it. I mean, there's a certain level of difficulty and paradox to be able to pull off a book like this. And I'm going to shift off the book and more into the content of what you've talked about. But to be able to do it in a way as you've probably done, you know, with your consulting and your coaching, to make it non threat, not only just non threatening, means it's neutral, but also to make it engaging, you know, and to make it, you know, you know, fun in quotes. I mean, it's sort of like. I mean, the fun part is the living your life, you know, the memento mori aspect of it, you know, is, you know, kind of just one of the tools that you can for people that. That fits for, you know, Marcus Aurelius or whoever else that. That kind of fits for, to be able to have that. So you've. You. Throughout the book and even this conversation so far, you've mentioned memento mori as a kind of. It's a principle. It's a kind of a Stoic philosophy, I think. I'm not a philosopher, but tell us more about the. What it translates into from Latin and why it's important in, in your book and your work and for our lives.

Yeah, yeah. It is the Latin expression for, remember, we must die. And it has been around for centuries, plural. And we. I mean, you think about some of the art you look back on, like from the Renaissance period, and they've got pictures of tableaux, right, of a table, and there's a bouquet of flowers and some of them are dying. And there are often clocks, like, or the countdown timers, the hourglasses. They show skulls, of course, which is pretty darn obvious. But bubbles, the painters would paint bubbles, which, I mean, they're going to pop any minute. Their death is imminent. Any kind of. They're called vanitas. And these images that help people remember that life was Short. Now, back in the days, I mean, if you go back hundreds of years ago, thousands of years ago, the lifespan was extremely abbreviated. So, yes, it was easy to remember. Like, life short. Like, it literally might be next week for me because I'm already 25. Right. The idea. And depending on the cultures, there were some religious underpinnings, too, where it's, you know, live in such a way that you will die and then be able to enter the pearly gates, for example. So some of it was based around the notion with religiosity, but it's mostly just around the theory and philosophy about life is short. Live it. There's an old quote I love by Virgil. It says, death twitches my ear.

Live.

He says, I'm coming. And just the kind of, like, it's spooky and it can get morbid. And that's why I doodle, is because, like, let's poke fun at it. Let's use this. And it. I just. I also love the idea that it has been a thread woven throughout time. It's like the one shared thing we all experience. Right. You know, P.S. eliot says, like, when it comes down to it, brass tacks. All we have in common, this is what it is. It's life, copulation, and death. And so it's coming. Death is coming. And, you know, it's this unifying thing in a very bizarre way, which, you know, I think we don't think a lot about, and I don't talk a lot about either, but it's that. But, you know, back to the idea that I said earlier about the absurdism, which is a branch of philosophy, this idea, like, we're all trying really hard to just do our best. Some of us are doing better than others and to each other. And, you know, we're just. We're just, like, making our way and trying to look half decent. Trying to succeed. Trying to. Trying to. And then, like, here we all are. We're in the same boat. Like, we are all careening towards the end. And so sometimes that actually makes me think, if we all got a little more in touch with that, maybe we would be maybe a little bit better to each other. But, you know, some evidence proves the opposite, but that's getting a little detailed.

Well, I also have to say that, you know, speaking of the Memento Mori aspect of it, I've never seen a book dedicated to the Grim Reaper, so. And it also, I mean, it reminds me. I mean, it sort of of your humor kind of diffuses the morbidness of it. You Know, it's sort of like when you see the cartoon ghost versus a horror movie or something like that. But it also. Yeah, from a more philosophical level, like you were, you know, Virgil. It also reminds me, like, not so much philosophy, but I guess just literature. Like Saul Belo said, death is more like the dark backing that a mirror needs if we're going to see anything. When I read your book, that kind of resonated, you know, kind of came back to me going. Yeah, with. When you have that juxtaposition of finality, you know, the memento mori aspect, you know, really in full throat, you know, to me, I find that, you know, super motivating and super, you know, in a way, inspiring as well, too. So you've talked about your Mondays. You named a company after it. Could you share maybe. Maybe we can kind of go into some of the practicality kinds of things. What are some of the daily practices that people might want to try on for increasing their mortality awareness? Make that dark backing of a mirror.

Yeah, dark backing. I love that. Wrote that one down, too. You're filling up my sticky here. So the countdown, I think, is implied, but maybe in case it's not super clear, every week, having that be a number that is front of mind. Visual helps, which is why I like writing the number down. I also think the visual reminders, because, you know, many of us are visual learners, but we need the reminders. Having little talismans or totems or little things around that might help to just be a visual for me. I mean, if you could see where I am right now in my office. This is over. Akill. I think I've got probably no less than like 100 little skulls and little, little reminders. It's like, for me, it's like, this is not a reminder. This is overkill, honey.

The Addams Family. Here we go.

But it's really. But it's not a black. I mean, I love black. I wear black all the time, but it is very light and fluffy. I actually buy. This is. This is. This is art Morbid Art 101. But on Amazon, there is a really great skull you could buy. It's only 19.99, but it's like an actual. It looks fabulous. It's like a plaster cap last skull. And I paint them. I spray paint them in, like, hot pink and like a really pretty gray. And so you.

I love it.

I mean, it's. So you could have an art project, but that could be.

There you go.

A little reminder. But when you come across it you know, I like to do things that maybe workshops and stuff where I'll give people little stone skulls or little tombstones. They just put it in your wallet or your pocket and you're like, oh yeah, that's right. Yep, I'm temporary. I'm also a fan of back to the idea about, I call it defanging death. But like have the conversation with people and you don't need to go into it, especially with people who are already anxious about death. You don't need to talk about when are you gonna die and how do you think you're gonna die. You could just go the soft approach, which is like, hey, what's the stuff on your bucket list? Having the conversation about cool stuff you'd like to do before you go and that at least the energy is more about the neat endeavors. And then it could start to get it. Because I will just share with you. I haven't been very double edged sword about the bucket list because I think it could just be a way to capture dreams that then die. Because you know, the psychology around sometimes positive fantasies will make us feel just good enough about the idea we have that. Yay, I wrote it down on my list and then I close my journal and then I go and I live my life and I'm like, but I didn't do anything, but I felt good writing it down. And so we need to have a deadline, Literally deadline. So having a date, you know, like, hey, cool, you want to go and do that family ancestry trip over in Ireland? Amazing. When, when do you think it would happen? Like, when's, when's a good time? Is it next spring? Oh no, I'm gonna have a big problem. Okay, so is it, oh, fall of 2027. Cool. And then all of a sudden it's real, you know, so anyways, I'm talking about it with friends, I think is important. I think there's a psychology talks too about this idea about practicing death, like little ways. Especially if death is really still squeamishy for you. It's about starting to look and understand that oh my goodness, you know, there's the cycle of birth and death is all around us. Whether it's the tree out in your yard or the, you know, through the seasons or whether it is the bouquet of flowers I mentioned. You know, it could be just even having a picture of a loved one who's dead, who died. Notice that I'm more direct. I don't always say that a loved one who's passed, it's okay to say the word dead, that having, you know, Uncle Hector, you know, up, hey, Hector, like, may have that be a reminder that he's no longer here. Little things like every. Every living thing will change. Every river flows, every job you have, there's going to be something that changes. You'll get a new boss, the company might close. Like the fact that change is always happening. And these are all just subtle reminders that we can start to use as accepting in a very kind of Buddhist, Western, Eastern philosophy way that I'm accepting that things naturally ebb and flow and it will naturally come to an end.

That's good, you know, and just a little corny, cliche kind of thing. I don't mean to trivialize it, but I also. One of the issues I have, like, you were just, just you highlighted it to say, you know, when someone's died versus what some people might feel, the more cushiony, you know, someone's past. I totally get that and respect that. But it also makes me feel like, like, you know, my parents have passed, if you will, but they are still very present. And it's the idea. That's why I have a little chafing with the past, you know, yes, they've died. Yes, we've. And maybe you could say, you know, we put them to rest or, you know, whatever other kinds of, you know, colloquial term that feels comfortable. It's always a person's preference. But I always still feel like, you know, there's a presence of that person. Like you just said, you know, a picture of someone who's died. Well, that helps keep them in the present. That then becomes, you know, like you mentioned, you know, that could be a totem, you know, as well, for some people. So just want jam that in as a sidebar that, you know, I like the. I understand the issue of someone has died. They are no longer here, but they can nevertheless, you know, be present in our thoughts, present in our hearts, present on our bookshelf, you know, that sort of thing.

Well, I love you mentioning that because I think that that helps us to savor the experience of knowing and loving and. Or liking somebody. But I think it also is internal for us is that like we are leaving a legacy. So I think about it like after you go, you're also going to be in someone's mind because you've worked with them or crossed their path in some way. And that is our opportunity in many ways also to shape a life worth living. Now that we're proud of that we either will be. We think about well, how do I want to be described when I'm gone? How do I want to be remembered? And I've always found the research super fascinating, too, that it's often for people, it's not so much about leaving a positive legacy. That's motivating. It's avoiding leaving a negative one. So sometimes in workshops, there's this exercise, right, where it's like, what would you like etched into your tombstone? You know, some people will be like, oh, I want to be known as being loving and kind or as being super creative or super funny. And then that can be, okay. Are you living in a way that would earn you the right to have that etched into your tombstone? But then the other flip side is, like, how would you absolutely hate to be described? Like, what would be the thing that would make you roll over in your grave, you know, and someone be like, oh, my God, I would hate to be described as a cheapskate or, you know, as someone who was just kind of lazy or whatever that is. And it's. Well, okay, so are you living in a way now that nobody could ever call you lazy? You know, how would you be demonstrating that? And then these are opportunities just to, again, as always, like, evaluate and reflect and go, hmm, okay. And then maybe take action if it feels. If it feels motivating to do so.

You know, that makes me. I want to kind of skip around, because you also talk about the difference between a eulogy and a obituary. Can you talk about those differences?

Yeah, Yeah. I think both exercises are worth doing, by the way, like having. Drafting your eulogy and obituary. So the obituary is the one that's brief, and it's usually, you know, in the olden days, it's in the newspaper. My dad's so cute. He reads the Toronto Star obituaries every day, and he's always pleased when he's not in it. Ha, ha, ha. Yeah. And so that's the, you know, succinct. And in the book, I actually go through an exercise. There's like, a really brief framework and, you know, rough outlines, like 200 words or something. And it is really. That's like a really brief encapsulation of kind of, like, who you are, what you did. So that's how people would know you, right? Like, maybe you were a father to these. These people and animals or. And here's the cause that you were interested in, and here's what you did for a living. It's. It's a little bit more of, like, the outward encapsulation, and there's value in doing that because it's like a succinct exercise. The eulogy is juicier. And this is where I'm a fan of actually writing two versions. This is. This is a good, you know, personal retreat day. Like take yourself to Starbucks or a nice hotel lobby. Sit down and do some writing. The first, first eulogy is the one where if imagining somebody saying a lot of words about you, right? So that's like up at the pulpit or up at your memorial, your wake or wherever, whatever. Whatever you're going to be having for yourself. If you want something, what are people going to say about you? What are the stories? What are the little anecdotes? What are those moments and memories that will encapsulate your legacy? So I recommend doing a draft of your ideal eulogy, and then I recommend doing a draft of what is realistic about what people would say with you right now about you. And then there's going to be a gap, right, because we always have a fantasy version of ourselves or what's called best possible selves in psychology. So, okay, if your fantasy version of the best possible self, that eulogy is about how you achieve these cool things and how you were all. You always made people feel like they were the most important person in the room. And you're like, well, I don't actually feel like right now if I died that my real you would be. Would say that. Then that would be like, well, okay, well, duh. What. How might I need to interact with people starting today so that I earned the right to be described as so focused and listening and really just making people feel important like they matter like that. It's all designed not to focus on the fact that you're going to be lying out in a casket. That. Yeah, that's beside the point. That's whatever. Or an urn. I don't want to leave us cremators out. But it's more about, okay, cool. How do you want to live your life now? You know, that might be like, wow, I feel like I need to just slow down a little bit and just going back to that example of making people feel like they are the most important person in the room. Well, I think I need to really be conscious and wow, I have a. I'm going to be interacting with a friend at lunch today. And today, here's how I'm gonna show up when I meet him for lunch. I'm gonna be. I'm gonna lean forward and put my hands under my chin and just listen, you know, so all Of a sudden, now you leave that lunch and you feel better about yourself and that person likes you a heck of a lot more because you did a lot more listening. And now all of a sudden life feels a little bit different.

I love that it's so such a parallel or augmentation of the proverbial, you know, fly to Tahiti before I die kind of thing. I mean, it's, there's the, the quasi bucket list and we'll get to the bite sized bucket lists and the good and the bad of bucket lists, but I mean, it's sort of like this is you in the fabric of who you are as a person, how you want, how you just said, you know, like your, your best self, your idealized self kind of thing. And to realize that, you know, there also can be a, you know, in the, in the cutthroat pursuit of doing 15 things on your bucket list in the next 15 months, you become, you know, a jerk, you know, to, to your loved ones or absentee. You know, I'm gonna, you know, I, I really love my family, but I'm gonna be gone on a, you know, a six month climb someplace, you know, kind of thing. And hopefully I'll come back, you know, and hopefully they'll be there when I get back. So this, I mean, it, I think that it adds another facet or dimension to thinking about, you know, not just how we live our lives, you know, living a life in full. Generally, I think the default for myself included is to think about activities. But an activity can be a check off of, you know, I, you know, sailed around the world. It can also be, you know, I have a wonderful relationship, you know, with my, my spouse or my kids or my, my, you know, my best friend or my boss or whatever it might be. So I think that's what you just said just really kind of triggered that, that this is the bouillabaiss, the richness, the combination, the synergy of all these different kinds of things.

Oh, I'm so glad you said that. And also, I love buoy bays, love that. And I made a mistake, I think early on when I was doing workshops is I would get people thinking about possible deathbed regrets and, or ways they wanted to live wider and deeper, like cool stuff they want to do. And you are really right. Like the default for us is to think about activities, achievements, cool things and moments. And like, let's absolutely make time and room to write those things down and put dates beside them. Oh, and then do them. One of the things I've come to realize, though, is that there is just as much credence to not just the things we do, but our ways of being. And that is an opportunity to get people thinking about. And this goes back to a lot of Dan Pink's research around regrets that I love that there are different categories of them. Like some of us will regret, for example, on our deathbed, not, I don't know, say, training for a triathlon or not pursuing education. Like these are activities, right. But some of them are actually more about back to the ways of being. It's like for me, I would choose, if I was to go tonight, may I rest in peace. Like around the category of boldness regrets. Like, I would regret not being bolder, making, you know, making gutsier choices or putting myself out there and risking a little bit more. That's a way of being. That's not a thing that I did or didn't do. Same thing about, you know, a lot of parents might say if they're given the prompt, oh, yeah, I wish I was more present with my kiddos. You know, I wish like I put my phone not just down but like in the other room and sat down and did a little bit of Lego before I lost my mind, you know, with my kid and then go back to the phone. You know what I mean? Like, so some of it is about. It could even be about, you know, being more forgiving or more patient or. Or just more self, Self compassionate. So there are ways of being that I think are just as important. I mean, my gosh, maybe even more important than like, wow, the fact that I did this cool thing. I mean, I think it's all important. Back to the bull you base.

Yeah. And okay, so another maybe ingredient in this or maybe this is the first bowl full, but this is. Are we kind of talking about what you refer to as pregrats or is that something different?

Totally. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that puppy up. You know, anything that. And the best way to mentally imagine this is that, you know, it's almost curtains, right? So, like, you are on your deathbed. It's just the best way to get ourselves experimenting with this. What would be examples of things that you wished you had done? And I'm going to be very clear here and say we need to dismiss the regrets of commission, which are the regrets, like the mistakes we made, the stupid stuff we did that we wish we hadn't. Research is clear that over time we soften a little bit about our, you know, perception about how, oh, I did that stupid thing, you know, Let that go. I am more concerned because we are more concerned at the end about the paths not taken. So what would be an example of something? You'd think, oh, you know, I always wanted to do that, but I just never did, or, yeah, I never made time for it, or I said I would do it later, or I chickened out, or, gosh, who cares why or how? And it doesn't need to be something magnanimous. Like, I always wanted to start that nonprofit. It could be, you know, I always wanted to pick up the pottery wheel and do pottery, and I never did. Or it could be, you know, so those are pregrats, because, good news, the curtains have not been drawn. We're still alive. We get to make that choice now. So it's like, okay, wow, look at you in that mental exercise. You wrote down pottery, or you wrote down nonprofit, or you wrote down that you wanted to, you know, start the business or go and get back on the dating apps or whatever it is. Cool. Why don't we take one step and maybe get to get to that today? Not all the things I want to be super clear, like, sometimes you'll write a list out of, like, 38 things. Well, now we do the art of procrastinating, of not procrastinating, of prioritizing. Very different than procrastinating. Now we go, like, pick and choose which one might feel most energizing. Or for some of us, if we've just been super, super backseating our lives, maybe we just need to get a small win. Be like, what's an easy thing you can do? Just, like. Just to show yourself. Yes. You're the kind of person that lives your life. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to register for bridge class. Okay, go. Fine. Go do that. Show yourself that I get to do cool things. I do fun things. I make time for myself or I learn new things or whatever it is. So those are pregrets. They're regrets in the making. And you can totally course correct them, which to me is so exciting and

is one of the ways to sniff them out. Then we're kind of on the pre vibe here with a pre mortem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Talk about that. The fun autopsy. Tell us about that.

Yeah, well, I want the book to be super practical about, like, looking at your life and then making. Having some ahas and then making. Making some, you know, choices and changes, if you want. And so the pre mortem is this, like, deep dive into all things you before you go. And it's this pulse. Check it's like, how are things going? What's working? What's flatlined? Like, what doesn't have a pulse anymore? And some things don't have a pulse, but we don't care right now. You know, like, you know, you could be in a really busy phase, building an amazing career, and you're like, yeah, my social life is in the tanker, but I don't care. I'll pick it up later. And you're. Maybe you're okay with that, that. But for some of us, we're like, I missed friendship. Or maybe your recreation is just like, like recreation. What's that again? I don't have hobbies. And that's your chance to go, okay, well, like, maybe this is an area that I want to revitalize. What would I do? And that's back to this. Like, the pre mortem is what will help us to determine either the areas of our life and, or the specific things that could be right hanging in front of us. Like, wow, you know, I really used to miss going for a walk around the block after dinner. Wow. Maybe I could just. Do I start doing that again? Do I start doing that tonight? Like, that could change your life in an instant. Tiny little things. Right?

That's good. I think it helps. You know, it's the iterative processes sometimes. And it also just, I think sometimes, regardless of how, what in reality is a small thing, but might feel like a huge intimidating thing of going out for that walk or oh, not tonight, or oh, my show is on, or oh, my foot hurts, or oh, it's cold, or whatever. But then just to actually go out and to say, okay, well, I'm not gonna walk around the block. I'm gonna walk halfway around the block. And then that can be sort of enough of the icebreaker. And then hopefully it goes well, you don't get bit by a dog or, you know, anything. And then, you know, you go, well, yeah, that's kind of fun, you know, and hey, I bet, you know, maybe by this time next week, you know, and again, not to over construct it and not to, you know, say, I'm gonna. From walking to Everest kind of a thing.

Yes.

You know, just, just to allow that so that you don't have all this, oh, it's such a big deal and oh, there's so much inertia that, you know, the, the little flywheel aspect of it of get it going, get it going, get some momentum, makes it a little easier the next time. And then also to not beat yourself up. I read a great thing about like, you know, just, you know, when you go on a trip and your diet goes sideways or your exercise goes out the window or whatever, because just the nature of your travel doesn't allow for what you would typically do and say, okay, that was that time, the trip is over, I'm back to my routine, I can get back in, you know, regain. I probably gained a little weight, lost a little muscle, you know, whatever, and you know, but rather than just saying, okay, I'm screwed, yeah, that's it, you know, I gotta get back on the horse. And, you know, and I think I feel like with your book, that's kind of one of the things of saying, you know, try it out, you know, see if we see what works. And in your, like your little worksheet kind of things and stuff like that, I think just helps identify for people to get over that inertia of, oh my God, where am I going to start? You know, it's just too big. And so brava.

I'm so glad you picked up on that because I think we really consistently underestimate the impact of even the smallest little things. And you're highlighting something that I want to write a little more about and even research first is our propensity to have this all or nothing thinking. Because I think that if we feel like we can't fully engage, well, then I'm just going to stay on the couch. Now, trust me, like, the couch is one of my very favorite places. So I'm not judging anybody. Like, you'll see me there every night.

Self care, self care, thank you, code quote.

But it's one of those, if we're. Is it really all or nothing? Because then what that really leads to is if I can't fully go balls to the wall with this life that really sounds cool to live, then I'm just not going to engage at all. And I say, well then, Aw, well then we all lose. You know, if you're not playing even a little bit, like it counts. And it's not even like, like we're failing at life and I'm not gonna win at life unless I fully engage. So I. It's like even doing one little thing right, making a choice today to do the walk to the mailbox and back, which maybe you would do anyways, but maybe it is around the block or maybe it is your version of like, you know what? I tried a new recipe that was kind of cool, or I reached out to my old friend from college and that wow. Like, it was a really neat conversation or wow, Like, I. I went and got bangs. You know, that's different for me. Or wow. I went and I started a whole new. I started reading a mystery novel. Like, these are little tiny things that don't roll your eyes because these are small things that are choices in life that we can do that just shake it up a little bit because novelty is just so crucial.

Yeah. This is like your bucket sized, bite sized, bucket list kind of concept too. And I think even just the simple. I want to read three pages at night before I go to bed in a novel. You know, I've gotten so out of novels, you know, blah, blah, blah. And you find it, you know, all of a sudden it's 15 pages and it's like, oh, I'm gonna read this tomorrow morning with coffee once I get up, you know. Yes. That's, to me, kind of the flywheel aspect of it.

Flywheel, yes. Oh, love that.

Good. Okay. All yours, Jodi. I want to talk about that. Maybe just to beat this flywheel aspect. What are some of the ways. Let's say you've gotten a little. An inch or a nudge of momentum. But, man, there's the kids and there's the boss and there's. The car's got a flat and there's this and the that when people start to get overwhelmed. It almost seems like we talked about earlier, like brand and prioritization of projects. But, you know, life, life sometimes, you know, you know, blows a. Maybe not a timeout but an overtime for, you know, this is the. The furnace is broke and, you know, you can so much for, you know, reading that novel over coffee tomorrow that, you know, you got to call the repair person and you got to do this, you got to do that. What are some of your tips about when we do get overwhelmed so that we don't just again, you know, we wrote it down, maybe we put a date on it, we put it in a drawer, and three years later, when we grab our stapler, we go, oh, shoot, there it is. So what are some of your tips for what do we do when we've got the desire, but we're just. There's too many other whack a moles that we have to deal with.

Yeah, whack a mole. That's such a perfect image. Yeah. The very first thing I can think of is acceptance. It's that so because, you know, an old ism is that our happiness is sort of defined as the difference between our expectations and reality. And, you know, reality is going to have the cacophony of garbage that's like, coming our way.

Right?

So like, yes, it's just a matter of, like, when's the next proverbial flat tire? So if some of it is this, you know, if you're thinking you're going to have this, like, fantasy staycation week off where everything's going to be great. Yeah, they're like this sort of like an expectation and almost like this sort of shrugging, almost amused acceptance that here we go. And I don't mean it in a resigned way, like the snide life sucks way and then we die. But like, number one, I do think that there's just a little bit to be said for recalibrating our expectations. So there's that. But then, yeah, we're like, yeah, thanks. But back to reality, you know, thick kid and. Or flat tire and all the things. This, this to me comes back to sizing what it takes to bring a little bit of aliveness into life. And it's expanding on our all or nothing discussion. Is it? One of the things I do in groups is I get this exercise about writing out a list of stuff that makes you happy. And I have prompts, right? Like, what's your favorite smell and favorite taste and all the little favorite movies and books and all the things. Because, let's be honest, busy, successful professionals, some might argue that some genders more than others are out of touch with what makes them happy because they're looking after other people. Or we're just busy and we kind of. We lost the plot on ourselves and what brings us joy. And furthermore, it's this. Okay, write out a list of little tiny things you can do that do just happen to make you happy. And it doesn't need to change your life. And usually in a group, it helps to have examples because then people can start to get warmed up. Because usually people look like deer in headlights. Like, I don't know. And then one person says, oh my gosh, tending and watering my plants, clipping them, like, oh, God, I love that too. Or, I don't know, just sitting down in this patch of sunlight and petting my dog or brushing my dog. Or it could be looking at Seinfeld Blooper reruns on YouTube or sitting and reading a chapter, or just sitting outside on the park bench and just letting the sun sit on my face or, like, looking at. So sometimes it's nature for people. Sometimes it's prayer or meditation, or it could be, you know, kneading dough or letting it rise and then, you know, baking it. It could be something again that is not magnanimous. Like, I'm only happy when I'm sailing around the Mediterranean. And if that's your life, well, wow, cool. But. And so having these little. Almost like a cheat sheet about when you have a found five minutes, how you want to spend it. So even in the day that you describe the overwhelmed day, deadlines, other people's nagging needs, annoyances and things that derail the cool thing you were going to do, we can still fit in pockets of time. Because I will say there are still these moments of discretionary time, even if it's your 10 minutes before bed, where what we often do, What I often do is I find myself mindlessly living in a way that's not going to deliver any kind of aliveness. So I might be scrolling. Now, sometimes scrolling is good, often it's not. Or I'm checking my email and that's necessary, but it could wait. Whereas I could make a choice to say, what if I did sit for this five minutes before bed instead of going through my stupid phone, which never helped anybody. Five minutes before bed ain't gonna help anybody look at my email. It's gonna be waiting for me tomorrow. What if I did read again a book that made me feel like I was smart or entertained? Or what if I did sit and just do five minutes of breathing? Or what if I did do five minutes of just reflecting on my gratitude journal? Or what if I did, you know, have a moment with my husband that was actually not just watching Forensic Files? You know, like, what if it was just something where again, these are little choices where when you tune into what makes you happy and what makes you feel just a little more alive than dead inside. If you stitch together just a few more of those in a day. That's the difference sometimes between feeling like life is boring or ho hum and life is actually getting lived around here and it doesn't mean that you had to go to a concert.

That's lovely. It's so actionable and doable and you know, as you noted, like just having that list, I mean, people can literally like write it down, put it on a, post it, stick it on the mirror, you know, put it wherever, put it in their diary, their journal, what have you. Yeah, it's not exactly a fit, but it makes me think of. I'm also a big fanboy of your newsletter. Thank you. And yeah, you recently had one called do you record the Moments of youf Life?

Oh, yes.

And boy howdy, did that like resonate with me so you know, and I think you. You made reference. I think it was actually maybe off mic, but, like, you know, I've got my. My life list where I sort of made this combo pack of stuff I want to do and then stuff that I've done. Because sometimes when my mo. My motivation, my momentum is flagging, I sort of think, oh, God, you know, that, you know, all the good day. Good old days are. All the good old days are all behind me. You know, I need something. You know, I can't get motivated. None of these things are ever going to be possible. And blah, blah, blah. I'll kind of look at that and it'll give me a little umph to say, oh, I did do this. You know, I just. That was just two years ago I did that. And I'm not much different than two years ago, so I like keeping track. So once I've done something a million years ago, I used to have a Palm Pilot and I had to do lists in it. I remember if you took the goofy little plastic stylus and touched it, catch the little box, a line went through whatever that was. And back then, that felt good because they're just like work things. I didn't care, you know, okay, I sent in my report. Yay, it's done. But for my life, it's a different story because it literally becomes my life story. So for me, it was like, do you record the moments of your life? It was like, jody, you know, that's a. Hell, yes. And how. Yeah, to a fault. So maybe you could share, like, what was the motivation of what your thoughts were about it. Some of the tips because you gave some in that. That I thought were really, you know, sharp. So could you share some of the tips and ways that you personally do and maybe why people should. Or I don't know if they shouldn't. But my bias is that, you know, I find it helpful. But tell us, kind of unpack that one, because that one really kind of was right at a bullseye for me.

Yeah, I'm glad that it clicked for you and the research is clear that we can savor over different time frames. We can savor looking back at things we did. Reminiscence. We can savor the moment, you know, if we're actually freaking present for it every now and then. And then we can pre savor or anticipate cool stuff that we have coming up. And one of. I think we miss the boat sometimes on capturing when you do the thing. Like, for example, when you go and you have the. We did the wine tasting. And then we did dinner or we went to the cat show or, oh, we went for a walk or the thing that you want to record that was in any way some kind of highlight. And you can capture that it's fodder for happiness later. Okay, so it's happiness now. You actually get a boost when you record it in the moment that you did this neat thing and you were conveniently leaving out. This is not the journal about all of my thwarted dreams and unrequited loves and angers and, you know, misfortunes like. Like maybe a separate journal. Maybe don't spend too much time on that one. But I do think. And obviously there's value in that, but this is about how are you capturing it. And some people will keep a diary. Some people. I. What I do. I used to actually have little. Those diaries that you would not. It's a calendar, obviously. There are digital versions. I don't put in my Gmail or my Outlook calendar. The things that I did. I'd like to have it just be more visceral. So I get at Shutterfly or any printing place these days. I just make a custom notebook that has a cool picture on the front that's emblematic in some way of what's going on in life or the season or the year. And then I tape in the receipts for the dinner or for the outing or for the movie. So it's just this neat way of looking back in archives of the cool life you led. And it's not to brag to yourself later, but it kind of is. It's kind of like this evidence of. Evidence of a life that was lived and it's not for anybody else. I just want to be clear. I mean, I suppose when you die, someone's going to find it and they would be like, whoa, she did a lot of. She went to a lot of dinners, whatever. But this isn't about judgment from other people, good or bad. It's just capturing the cool stuff. And you started to note something else. Back to the Palm Pilot era about looking at your to do list. I'm a big fan and I stuffed it in the book somewhere of this idea about what I call tiny triumphs. And, you know, we get down on ourselves, like you said, you know, or we feel like we're only able to note and celebrate big accomplishments. Yeah, I don't know about you, but those are too far and fleeting in between. And I want to be able to at least have a little bit of a success log of something that was like this good thing happened. So sometimes it is the, you know, ooh, won this account or ooh, booked this speaking gig or whatever. But sometimes it's like, I'm really proud, like I made a really good casserole, you know, or wow, like today was good. Like that the little boost of like, yeah, actually cleaned up a cat litter box. And that was like I got around to doing it or something like the little wins or, you know, it could be at work. I used to do this when I was one on one coaching with clients because some of them were really upset that they had big long term goals. And we all know there's research from the progress principle that progress towards the goal is what gives us a sense of satisfaction at work. It's not usually, yay, we reach the goal because tomorrow it's old news. So it's the progress, but it's that some people had really long gaps between the milestones and the wins. And so sometimes it's like, well, what else happened this week? It's like, you know, you work with an executive and they're like, ah, we didn't make progress on the goal, like lifestyle, okay, but what, what worked? And when you dig a little deeper, they're like, actually I was really proud. Like we had a really difficult discussion at this meeting and that was actually really good progress for us as a leadership team. Wow. So you actually, you, you, you facilitated a really important conversation. Wow, that's a win. That's a tiny triumph. I would actually argue that one is not so tiny, but still.

Right.

Capturing, capturing. Whether it's in your personal life or your work life, I mean, maybe they're both the same, but capturing those things because we. Especially if you're hard on yourself.

Yeah, yeah. Well, two things on a personal note. I have created this little habit. I'll get like a piece. This is so corny, but here we go. I already like, yeah, I'll get a piece of. It has to be a special kind of paper with a special kind of pen with a special kind of ink. And it's not just a flimsy piece of paper. It's going to be something that's almost like, not exactly like cardboard, but it's something, you know, that might come in have, you know, like, like a little booklet of something or whatever. So there. And for me right this second, it's probably two and a half inches wide and probably nine inches long. And I will, I print everything and I will print like something nice that's happened. It could be a small thing Like, I just recently, I wrote down a very nice thing that a neighbor said to me. And it can be a big thing. My daughter and I went on a great big, big trip. And I just will put a bullet and I'll just say what John said. I'll just put trip with Annika, who's my daughter, blah, blah, blah. And there'll be enough of a trigger. I don't know. It's not journaling, it's just these little bullets. And oftentimes if I'm going to bed and I've got monkey brain going on, I will take a look at that and I'll just kind of scan it and I'll, like, pick one or two of them and I'll think about what that little bullet meant. I'll think about the trip that I went on. I'll think about what the neighbor said. That was nice. And that takes my head and my emotions and my. The rest of my Eve, my night, you know, into a much better place. Yeah, what it was, you know, and. And I don't have to go searching for them, like, going, okay, a lot of nice stuff happened this last six months. What was that? You know, and then it's like monkey brain, you know, meta monkey brain brain. Now I'm trying to, you know, I'm driving myself crazy trying to think about something nice to stop driving myself crazy with all the other noise. The other thing that is just so serendipitous is that I am working with a company and startup called Fire Memos. And Octavia Goradima, who's been a past guest on this show, is the founder of that and she techstars graduate superstar. Just amazing, amazing person. Shout out to her and everybody, look her up and look at Fire Memos. But her point is, or her technology is exactly to your point, which is every week we have little wins at work that can just fall off our radar. Wouldn't it be nice six months from now when I'm doing my review with my boss, that I could pull those up? So she's created this technology that kind of asks you and prompts you with an AI engine behind it, and then also does a very nice supportive coaching and AI coaching algorithm as well, too. So not only do you have a prompting system to record your wins, and literally, like, I'm experimenting with it too. So every Friday, I get a. I get feedback from the. The AI telling me, here's the wins that you log this week, you know, kind of a thing. And then it just, you know, and it'll Talk to me about them, you know. Well, you know, you said you did, blah, blah, blah. You know, how did that feel? You know, just a very kind of quasi, kind of Rogerian kind of, you know, questioning and stuff about what it was as a, you know, as a substitute for a human, but decent enough for what the tool is, you know, kind of. Kind of coaching. So I think you are spot on. And I think we'll probably start to see, you know, with, you know, you with your paper journal. I have a bullet journal where I do similar kinds of things.

Do you?

Yeah, yeah. I'll write. Might print things out longhand, and I'll put a, you know, a ticket stub in it, you know, just exactly like you said. Or there'll be some little article that triggered some thought, and I'll paste the article in and write what it triggered in me. And, you know, periodically I might come back to it, but I might never come back to it. But it's sort of like the point isn't that it's serving a purpose in the moment. It makes me feel better and complete that I ever want to relive this. It's archived and I know I can go grab it off the bookshelf. So. Yeah, we have a lot in common, Jody, so.

I think we do. I know. I knew.

Good Lord. Identical cousins. Yeah. Yeah. So I know we're kind of running on time. Do you have just a couple more minutes? Maybe I can cover a couple of other things. Is that you good for time?

Yeah, I've got a couple more. Yeah.

Okay, good. I just to kind of maybe get. Because I'm getting to the end of the book, so I have to say, and this is going to make me cry, but in your acknowledgment section, you have a note about your dad. And it really got to me. And you said that he's at his minus. I'm getting choked up. He's at his -416th Monday, and so shame on you for making me cry, Jody, but I just thought that was so touching and so intelligent as a. As a writer to be able to pull, you know, you. You. You've dropped humorous, funny things. You've got great illustrations. And then to kind of wrap it up like that, I just thought was poetic. So I. That just. I just. I could not finish our conversation without doing a shout out, a call out for something like that.

Well, thank you for noticing that. And yeah, my dad is a special character in my life. And when I did the. When I launched the website, this is Going back now, four years ago, he called and said, joe, I think I might have broken something, because on that calculator, when it calculates your Mondays, he goes, at the time, it was like minus 250 or whatever the number was. And I said, oh, daddy, you didn't break it. Now, I love him because here's his line, and he. He loves to. He loves to bet the horse racing. And he goes, Joe, he goes, I'm playing with house money. It's great. So we all get to the point where we play with house money.

With house money. That's. That is awesome. Stupid. Quick question. Did you do the illustrations?

Yes.

Gosh, you are. You are a polymath. What can't you do, girl?

Can I share with you, though? This, to me, is an example of how life is funny, because I didn't know that I liked to draw until my mid-40s, until I started all this.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. So I just love the idea that. Think about the rest of us out there. We've got these dormant interests that all, like. It's almost like, what could be inside if we could crack ourselves open? What other little talents and joys and interests could be inside of us? Because I didn't know I liked to draw. I just started doing it because I thought I wanted 4,000 Mondays to be whimsical because otherwise, again, everybody would just leave me. So, yeah, I love the idea that, who knows? You could have. You could be. Well, I mean, you are. I've seen your list of cool things you've done, but there could be another thing in there.

There you go. There you go. All right. I'm gonna have to channel my inner Jody Wellman, so. Well, we've covered a lot of territory, a lot of ground, a lot of areas. Life, death, and everything in between. Between. Is there anything that we've missed that you'd like to add before we wrap up?

You know, thank you for asking. I would just again summarize. You noticed that I acknowledged the book to the Grim Reaper. Reaper. I was probably sucking up a little bit, but. But I would also then bookend. Literally bookend. Ha ha. Our conversation with the idea of, gosh, you know, tomorrow, as I like to say, it's this premise. It's not a promise. And if there's anything in our conversation we've been thinking about that has been bubbling about. A little idea or a little dream, seize the freaking day and use the reaper as your unwitting sidekick to be the one to say, hey, what am I waiting for? Don't wait. It's all there for you, waiting for you today and it's just precious. So go for it. Whatever silly little thing or big thing that is, why not? We got nothing to lose. We're all dying anyway.

I love it. I love it. Jodi. So from the business side of things, what are some of the best ways that listeners can learn more about you today? Connect to get the book, et cetera?

Thank you for asking. You know, I'm over at 4000mondays.com and so yep, there are links to get the book there if that's of interest, and lots of downloads of fun things, the calculator and I love chatting with anybody about this topic if anyone wants to reach out on that contact form. So yeah, 4,000 Mondays calm.

Good. Yeah, send your fan mail there folks. And that's also I'll put it in a plug for you. That's also where you can subscribe to Jody Jody's email or newsletter email. So please, please do that. That's a treat. Jody Good Lord. Thank you so much for the time to be on. I have so much enjoyed. I was so looking forward to it. I so enjoyed the book and it's just been a kick. Thanks so much.

Oh, thank you. This is time well spent.

As a reminder, listeners can read a summary of this episode and get access links to show notes via my LinkedIn Top Voice Companion article, along with past gifts as well. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I have, and I hope it will help you in your journey to living your life in full. Until next time, Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot LLC. A subsidiary assistant producer, Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host, Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website at lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks and until next time,