Profitability with Social Responsibility: Deb Crowe on a New Approach to Leadership

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the nonprofit I founded, the center for Global Initiatives. The center is an all volunteer organization so there are no salaries and thus all tax deductible donations can go to the work. While our key country partner is in Tanzania, our work is global and generally focused in the areas of education and healthcare. We also help others to get their nonprofits started or augment others project based initiatives. It's our goal to open source humanitarian intervention and to help make it easier for others to do more good in the world. We are proud to have been ranked a great nonprofit every year since 2011 and to have achieved a Platinum level rating by Guidestar Links. In this episode's show, notes will take you to published articles on our outcomes, a number of helpful tools, and downloadable resources which are all free always. Please Visit us at CenterForGlobalInitiatives.org and be sure to watch our video at Patreon.com DrChrisStout to learn more. Thanks. Welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. Leaders come in a variety of types and approaches. There are the proverbial chainsaw owls, those tough talking executives who are aggressive in their turning around troubled companies by laying off workers and closing factories. There are the Jack Welch types, who at first seem like geniuses but are later found out not to have created sustainable change. There are a litany of heroes and scoundrels, crooks and kings of all stripe throughout various areas of work, life and the world. But what if there was a more heart centered style of leadership? Something that binds the power of compassion, empathy and authenticity together in making decisions and transforming relationships with those we work with and collaborate with? Well, there is and Deb Crow literally wrote the book on it. Or should I say the Playbook, as she is the author of the newly published Heart Centered Leadership Playbook. Deborah Crow is an entrepreneurial leader with a wealth of experience coaching individuals at all level, as well as consulting, training and teaching as a college professor. She also hosts the popular podcast Imperfect and companion substack Newsletter how to Master the Art of the Heart With a deep passion for making positive impact, Deb has dedicated her career to creating ventures that prioritize people and the planet. Drawing from a diverse background that combines business acumen with a compassionate approach, she strives to create a harmonious balance between profitability and social responsibility. She is a graduate of Brock University and the Richard Ivey School of Business for Entrepreneurship. Deb has navigated the entrepreneurial landscape for more than 30 years and possesses a keen understanding of market dynamics, customer needs and innovation. Coupled with her diverse life experiences, she is an out of the box innovative thinker. Her visionary leadership style fosters a collaborative and inclusive work environment where employees thrive and contribute their best. Deb, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on.

Oh, Dr. Criss, thanks so much for having me. I'm truly honored.

Oh, it's a pleasure. It's nice to catch up, friends. So I want to do a deep dive into the new book, but maybe before we do that, could you tell us a little bit about your coaching and your podcast and your newsletter?

I would love to and it's just so fun to be on your podcast. I'm often reading the various things you publish and listening to you, so it's lovely to be on the other side of the mic. I have been coaching now for almost 14 years and I kind of fell into that role. Chris I used to be a neurotrauma disability case manager for over 20 years. That was my practice. That's what I went to school. And I got an interesting call one day from an adjudicator of a disability insurance company and she said, I heard you're great at getting people back to work. And I had been testifying in court for catastrophically injured men and women and I was getting really burnt out. And I thought this will be a nice reprieve from being an expert witness in court and a little reprieve from lawyers and big insurance companies. Did I know that it was going to change the trajectory of my life? I was introduced to three VPs and two CEOs who were all climbing that proverbial white ladder of success and executive leadership. And all of them were off on stress. And from the day of that call, Chris, to 10 months later, they all unfortunately became palliative. I landed up in hospice holding their hands at the end of their life. And that was the universe gently tapping me on the shoulder, saying, I think we need you over here. And my executive coach saying, those executives handed you a gift. What are you going to do with it? And I. I never envisioned myself being a coach until I finally realized how much of a coach I was in that medical role. And I'm happy to say it's the forefront of my coaching practice. And I have not lost an executive since I moved into this space.

Wow. Gee. What? I was sort of like, you know, the divine or universe intervention of, like, saying, well, Deb, here's three, you know.

Yeah.

How many more?

Exactly. So, you know, it was the same with the podcast. You know, we were seven weeks into Covid, it was May of 2020, and all of the C Suite leaders were saying, but what do I tell my people? And I kept hearing myself on repeat. And I thought, we need to talk about the unease here. We need to talk about that it's okay to be vulnerable. And I think sometimes organizations think and feel that everybody at the top has it all figured out. They're not robots. Their thoughts aren't being derived from AI. There's some cognitive processes happening here, and it's okay to say, you don't know, because we really didn't know back then, and we really, really didn't know that we were gonna be home for two years. So that imperfect conversation again, just kind of landed in my lap, and I got an idea and brought it to fruition. And now we're on season four, and I've interviewed over 250 leaders. Chris.

Oh, my gosh, I can't. Season four is very impressive, but that number of. Oh, my gosh, I can't imagine managing that. Deb. It is so. For me, it is just so difficult to do, like, one a month, you know, just. Just because I'm probably a bit more OCD than I need to do with it. But that is just. That's wonderful and so impressive, and it brings, you know, I think the. The. The diversity of what you do. I mean, obviously it can be like, you know, one on one and working with groups like, you know, as. As individuals and groups of people together. It can be then kind of the virtual mentoring and education and teaching via a. That people can do, you know, like, mostly I consume most of my podcasts. Used to, while I was driving, I used to have a long commute. Now it's more so when I go for a run, and it's just a lovely way to, you know, feel like I'm, you know, I almost look forward to my runs more so knowing that I get to listen to a podcast while I do it. And then now for you, you've. You've Broadened out maybe again, we're gonna. This will be the. The podcast of threes of From Coaching and Podcasts to Now a Newsletter on substack. What. When did that start? I'm a subscriber, but I'm not sure that I was adopter. But tell us about the newsletter, what spurred it and how people can get a hold of

literally derived from the podcast. Because I think as human beings, regardless of your stature, your title, if you consider yourself a leader, you are a leader. I often get asked, what are other leaders doing? What else have you heard? What else have you observed? And I decided to take the conversations from the podcast, convert them into an article to give unison, to give adaptability, to help with perception. And we just started doing that once a month. And it also helped me take that network of leaders that I interviewed and bring them, especially within LinkedIn. A lot of times I'm talking to someone and I'm sure you do this too. They're looking for something or they want to find something, and I've had a conversation, and I love honoring that connection and making that connection and putting that network of people together. So, again, it just organically happened, Chris, that we thought we need to turn this conversation into a newsletter. And it's been really well received. And people were like, me too. Or I was thinking that, or I didn't think of maybe solving that problem in that context. And so that's kind of. We kind of reproduced quality conversation into an article. Because like you just said about jogging, everybody likes to learn in a different way. Some people like to listen to books, some people like to read. Some people want the Kohl's notes. So we tried to keep it short and impactful so that they were getting the meaning quickly and easily within the newsletter. If they didn't have 30 minutes to listen to the podcast, that's great.

And I totally agree. I mean, it is, you know, like, you see a lot of podcasts that will have transcripts, you know, options with it, and there'll be some, especially on long form, I'll get, you know, it's like, I guess I increased my mileage or something, you know, to kind of get to that. I'm not finished yet, but, you know, let's add another mile to it. But in the downside of that is like going, oh, where was I? Was I an hour and two minutes into this when they talked about blah, blah, blah, and, you know, I'm never going to find it, you know, on itunes, and, you know, fast forward to it or whatever. But Then if, if it's one of the shows that does have a transcript that I can, you know, quickly scan that I can download the transcript, do a search for this book that they mentioned, what was the name of that book? Or who is that author? Or what was the. Whatever. And I totally agree. It makes it so nice to do that. And LinkedIn. I mean, I know you're on substack and I know you do a lot of things on LinkedIn as well too. But one of the things I joke that I've kind of been conditioned with the stuff I write for LinkedIn is that I can't write a paragraph without like 5 hypertext links in it, you know, to like send people to. Oh, and look at you, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh yeah. And you should probably really look at that. So here's the link to it. So. So I think it is very, I find it personally very, very helpful. Not every single thing that I read, but certain kinds of things I think really lend themselves to that. And I certainly think leadership is one of those things. And I remember myself years and years ago back in Chicago, there was a thing called Tech. It was tec. I can't remember exactly what it stands for, but it was basically almost like a precursor. This is so long ago. I mean, this is like late 80s, like a precursor, perhaps what people nowadays would recognize as a mastermind group or something. But it was kind of almost like how in the States, for people that don't know, DEB is based out of Canada, but in the States there's the Rotary. Well, I guess rotaries are national, I should say so Rotary Club oftentimes will have people in their local chapters be different positions or different kinds of companies or whatever, so that they could bring, just by design, diversity of thought, experience, blah, blah, blah, to whoever was presenting or whatever. And these tech companies, this tech organization was similar to that. So you wouldn't necessarily have competitors be in the same tech group. But it was this opportunity where people kind of what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. What was said at tech stays at tech. So there is this really strong feeling of confidentiality. So people could be transparent and be authentic and talk about things without worrying is someone going to use this against me or give this to my competitor or am I giving away some kind of trade secret or we're going to get in trouble with insider trading or something. And they had these opportunities where most of the time I didn't go to a great deal of them. I give some talks at them, not be a member of them and you get to hang around before or after. And a lot of it, Deb, was exactly what you focus on, which is my family life, my health, my emotional situation. Am I doing the right thing? Am I a good steward leader? Is my leadership where it should be? How can I compare myself to, like, folks that, however I want to design, that have similar family life or similar background or similar industry or whatever, where do I stack up with that? So I think you provide, again, through any way that people want to hear it or read it, a lot of content. And you must have an amazing Rolodex with all the people that you have on your show to be able to bring that to the fore. So, so just, you know, applause and you know, atta girl. That, that is just really a gift to everybody. Leaders and, and followers as well.

Well, like you, I've had a tremendous amount of fun, but I've built some beautiful relationships, some new friendships with some of the leaders. And there's always a word or a phrase or something that will come up in another conversation that will just, just anchor me back to that interview with that person. So I've, I've connected a lot of people together worldwide and that's what it's all about.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you are. You're sort of the Kevin Bacon of the podcasting world. Very few degrees of separation between you and somebody else that's doing pretty cool stuff. So maybe this is a good way segue to discuss your newest book. But before we do, I want to start with a description of it, so. So here goes. The Heart Centered Leadership Playbook is a transformative guide that redefines the traditional approach to leadership by emphasizing the power of compassion, empathy and authenticity. In this groundbreaking book, author and Heart Centered leader Deb Crow delves into the core principles of heart Centered leadership, providing practical tools and strategies to inspire individuals and organizations to lead with purposes passion. She describes how embracing vulnerability, active listening and fostering meaningful connections can unlock the true potential of both leaders and their teams. Drawing on a wide range of research, real world examples and personal experiences, Deb offers a comprehensive roadmap to cultivating self awareness, emotional intelligence and ethical decision making as she provides practical solutions rooted in the principles of what she defines as Heart Centered Leadership. The Playbook is a must read for aspiring leaders, seasoned executives, and anyone seeking to create positive change in their personal and professional lives. And Deb, I have to say, you know, I so appreciate you getting me an early proof of it. It was just really enjoyable to read. And again, more applause and bravad Deb, it's really, really terrific.

Well, thank you. And I was honored to have you as one of my beta readers. And your feedback brought tears to my eyes, which is what you want from all your hard work. You always want it to be well received, but it's probably one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. Chris.

I believe it. Well, you know, we were talking off mic before that. You've co authored four other books, so it's not like you're totally a newbie to it, but this being your first solo book, it had. I thought it was kind of cool because I've had a recent guest on who was actually the first author that I spoke with that actually wrote a memoir per se, and I felt like as I was reading your manuscript that there's a certain memoir aspect of it, as well as being a playbook, because you relate and reference a number of personal experiences that shaped and informed your work and obviously then wound up in the book and. And your writing. So I hate to be cliche, but I have to start with the classic question, what spurred. You've got podcasts, you've got newsletters, you've got training and teaching, but what spurred you to write this as an individual solo book?

Well, like that conversation I had with those five executives, I didn't want to die and not tell my story. It was sitting in my mind and my heart for 30 years. And I wanted to put my vulnerability and be true to who I am as an author, a woman, an entrepreneur, a wife, a mom. We all wear various hats every day. And I thought to show truly what heart centered leadership is putting in aspects of my life, the good, the bad, the indifferent, the traumatic, the loss, and how I anchor that as tools in my own toolkit. But the bigger part of that is how it really has a place and has always had a place in business acumen. And that's the uphill kind of battle. There's no other word that I've stayed grounded in. You read the part about my Irish nana. There were days where I wanted to climb off that mountain, and I didn't. And I'm glad I didn't, because I think putting your thought leadership out into the world is courageous. It made me nervous. I had huge imposter syndrome writing this book. And my editor kept saying, yep, you're exactly where I want you. And it was nice to talk to many other authors who said you have imposter syndrome because you care so much and there's never ego involved for you. Yeah, and it was just nice having that. That lateral, you know, perception and pat on the back and sometimes a hug. But I really put my all into this book, and people have seen that, including yourself, and that just means the world to me.

Yeah, it really does show. It really comes through. And not just. I mean, I like the memoir aspect of it because a lot of times you'll see in particularly quote, unquote, business books that, you know, there's case studies, which is really helpful. People love stories people relate to. The bullet points are nice. I love those, too. But the kind of putting things into action and the applicability of something or something happens and then what the learning experience is. But holy smokes, Deb, I agree. The intimacy of the written word, I think, is so different than doing a podcast or other kinds of ways to even teaching a class or being a consultant or a mentor. I tell students a lot that, you know, if you. If you have some ambivalence about, you know, am I doing things right or. Or whatever, then, you know, chances are you are. You know, the. The day that you think everything is perfect, you know, is the day that you really need to start having, you know, questioning yourself or, you know, getting some, you know, some consultation. And I have. I. I joke. My. My wife is. Is quite more literate than I am, and there's a period of. In the early part of our relationship, we were both in graduate school together, and I would, you know, be like, really proud of some paper I'd written or, you know, whatever, and she would just, like, you know, it was handed back to me, you know, dripping in red ink, you know, and it would be, like, super helpful, but, you know, heartbreaking, you know, so. So I joked with her, and then, you know, even, you know, postgraduate and like, quote, unquote, being professionals, I'd have. Again, same, you know, rinse and repeat. Here we go again. You know, I'd done this study, had taken forever to do. I had this great lit review, blah, blah, blah. I'd hand it to her and she'd say, well, this is, you know, what about this? And this is dumb and blah, blah, blah, you know, and it's like, okay, I'm never showing you anything again until it's published, because then somebody else has said, this is good enough. So it's. It's so what? I don't know what it is, Deb. Of something about, like, just. And you in particular in this. In this book. I mean, I'm talking about, like, scientific articles that have nothing to do with Me. And I still am like, you know, got my, my. I'm nervous, I got my ego on my sleeve and, you know, whatever else and, you know, someone going to like it or not like it. But when you do start bringing up your own history and use the authenticity and transparency, you know, that you have, I think that's very, you know, brave and courageous. And I think that there's nothing with the way. I mean, this is also hopefully, you know, spurring people to go, you know, grab a copy. But the way in which you do it and then are able to, like. I don't know how to say it, like, before and after making a. Like talking about some experience that you've had and kind of teeing something up to give a context of how we can understand how something happens, because this is what, you know, is the prelude to it and then taking it and being able to distill it into, like, actionable things for everybody that I don't have to go through the experience, you know, that you did, that you talked about xyz, that resulted in abc, I can learn from you by virtue of. Then you've, like, distilled it and spun it down to, you know, five bullet points, and you've distilled it down to, you know, here's what the takeaways are. And I think that's. That's a wonderful approach. It's a rare thing that I see in these types of books, and I think you've executed brilliantly on it. So, again, just bouquets and Bravas. I think it's really, really terrific. So you. A couple of things maybe we can start to unpack Some things you talk about, like transforming grief memories into learning moments and in your leadership journey. And was that from, like, you talk very frankly, and I almost feel like ambivalent about bringing it up, but it's in the book. But the loss of your father. Could you maybe unpack that and share that with the audience?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, sometimes my children will say to me, you're so calm when anything happens. And I remember the night before my dad died, which was the evening of September 12, 1987. I had a great chat with my dad and I knew he was going, even though I didn't know. I just, I intuitively knew, looking at him, I. I hadn't had any medical training or university education at this point. But you just, you just get those moments where, you know, and, you know, here I am going to get my dad life wisdom in what I knew was going to be my last visit with my dad. And he said, you got to figure out how to work with people because you're great with people. You're great with old people and little kids and whatever you do, figure out how you can work with people. And he said, don't you ever say you don't know anything because we all have a working knowledge of something. And sure enough, he passed away the next day. And I. I talk about that exact moment, which I'll never forget. And I was like 21 years old. So, you know, in school, trying to, you know, live my life as a university student. But how do you do that when your dad's palliative?

Right.

So I kind of feel like I didn't get the early 20s life that most people had because I realized then that emotional resilience was born for me that day. And I was 21, I was living on my own. I had rent and car payments, so I had to quit school and I decided to work for a temp agency because I thought, I want to have a whole bunch of knowledge in a whole bunch of different sectors and then figure out what my transferable skills are. And because I wanted to get back to school. And I knew that was going to be up to me, but I had to keep myself financially afloat. And I got called by the Australian Department of Defense by a head, a headhunter had a contract for them, and they were coming to Canada to build their light armored vehicles at General Motors. And they wanted someone to run the office and project manage with the officers and the lieutenant colonel. And I could hear my dad's voice in my head going, don't undersell yourself. And I was teaching Dawson UNIX at our local college, all self taught.

Oh, wow.

Because they find instructors. And so I had that going for me. So that gave me some credibility because I'm young. And I met with the lieutenant colonel and he handed me a list of software and hardware. And Chris, I knew everything on the list except one.

Wow.

And I could hear my dad saying, tell him you have working knowledge because by the time you get the job, you'll. You'll teach it to yourself. And I did.

Yeah.

And I went up against six men for the job, and I got it. And when I got the job, I said to the lieutenant colonel, I said, what was it that landed me the job? He said, you were the only one that knew all the software and hardware, and I needed that. And I was like, okay, dad, duly noted. And I now never undersell myself because I'm so self aware and I know how Quick I learn. And saying I have a working knowledge isn't saying I'm proficient or exemplary or it's. It's saying I know a little bit about it. And that way I just feel like I'm always honoring my dad. I always feel like he pops in when he needs to and that has won me a lot of contracts and I just don't allow self doubt to come in. And I remember that rule that my dad taught me and I learn it and do it to this day.

Chris what a nice way to honor him, Deb. I mean we all have our sympathies and our fond memories and things of loved ones past, but to put it again for you, I mean, it makes sense knowing you, you put it into action, you are able to make a difference with it and then be able to then subsequently impact good performance on a job or being able to help people out and make more of it and amplify those words that got you going to be able to be beneficial not only to you, but then to the circumstance and, and to others. You also talked about having corn. I did not know this at all. So I mean, I appreciate the memoir aspect of this because I try to stalk my guests pretty well. But the book educated me that you wrote that you had a corneal ulcer in your right eye and that that caused you to think differently. Can you tell us how so and did that affect on. Do you feel like it had an effect on your development or did that lead you into working with like, you know, what you did with the disability neuro stuff or tell us about that?

Yeah, you know what? I really think I do. And when I was writing this, it was funny because my grandmother was also disabled. I've always had some level of exposure in my life since I was as little as I can remember. And I was 4 when I got diagnosed. So this is now 1970. Chris so you have to think about the technology that optometrists and ophthalmologists and neuro ophthalmologists had back then, which was very little. So, you know, I was one of those pediatric guinea pigs where they try different drops and creams and I, you know, I was dressed for Halloween every day of the school year. I had a nice hard plastic pink eye patch with a black elastic that went around the back of my head that kids love to pull. I was, I was really bullied a lot, but it taught me to be strong with one eye. And I kept learning and asking questions and I actually was with the same ophthalmologist right up until he passed away. His name was Dr. Dyson. And all of the new optometrist and ophthalmologist and neuro ophthalmologists when I would go in because I had this well into my early twenties like after my dad passed. And I think as I got older and I learned how to manage my stress, I haven't had about or an episode. I do have extensive scar tissue behind my eye. So my, my vision has changed. So at the Young Age of 57 I am in trifocals and I will never be able to wear contact lenses. And sometimes depending on buildings and where I'm at. Fluorescent lights are not always my friend. But I always had to lean back into what can I still do? And I could learn how to drive with one eye. There were so many things I could still do and I think it led me to wanting to be in some type of medical career. And I landed up in disability case management and I specialized in neurotrauma because to me that kind of was a neurotrauma. But I saw a neurologist and I have quite a few friends that are neurologists and it's really interesting because I'm left handed so I'm very right brain. So having my right eye patched as I was growing and developing both physically and neurodevelopment wise, I actually use both sides of my brain which I think is pretty cool. I think it's a bit of a. Was super.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Well you have certainly used that to the, the benefit of, of mankind too. So. Well.

And I often hear like that's a really unique way of thinking of that or I didn't think of it that way and, and, and I always just smile and think. I wonder if I would have had that if I didn't have my eye patch. I don't know. But I think it's kind of fun to be left handed and, and, and know that I'm, I'm still utilizing some of those left brain attributes. But I do think that's why I have a huge empathy for anyone with any type of disability. And when I used to case manage I always focused on ability. The disability was a given and we didn't need to talk it, you know, ad nauseam, but it was like hey, let's talk about what you can do. And hence I was, was great at getting people back to work. I returned a quadriplegic patient of mine back to work.

Wow. Yeah, wow.

He loved computers and everything was coming out on the market with voice activation. And he was able. Yeah, he was a truck driver who loved computers. And he landed up working for a client of mine who was a research doc. And they couldn't have been more opposite. But when it came to the computers and the vision of the project and the research, they got on like two bandits. And it was just. Everyone was like, I can't believe you returned him to work. But he was an incomplete quad. So from. From the nipple line down, he was fully paralyzed. But from the nipple line up, he had some pretty good upper extremity function. And again, that was the gains of, you know, if they can get the needle into these people at the beginning of the spinal cord. We now see a lot more incomplete para and quadriplegic patients. But yeah, he. He was. He's one of my favorites. And I. I still go visit him the odd time at. At the hospital. He still wears his leather jacket with his long hair. So he still has preserved his.

That's good.

Biker.

His Persona. That's good.

And he works with a gentleman that's totally opposite. And they just get on perfect because I. I was able to show the unison of. Of the love they both had for data and computers. And. Yeah, that's a fond memory. I.

That's good. You can't judge a book by its cover.

Right.

I know. Similarly, I worked with for a while on the data side of things. I did developed a research department on data analytics with a physical therapy company in the States. And we started off with workers in the state. I don't know how it varies between the states and Canada, but workers compensation cases and a big part of it, not that I played a role in it, but just was kind of looking at the psychology aspects of it because there is such pride in what ever. You know, if they had been a pipe fitter or an electrician, or whatever, you know, that then got hurt on the job. And the importance of them being able to get back to what we called in the states, PDLs, physical demand levels. Yep, yep. So that we would, you know, that they could have get back. Not just because I found in the literature there's a lot of kind of playing around with the data. They would say, well, we got this person back to work. But then they said, but, you know, then it was like, well, at the same physical demand level. And that was. That's kind of what became our thing. You know, we really tried to do that. And you would see these guys that once they kind of felt like they were getting back into who they Identified as, like you said, with your friend and colleague, with being a biker, that they felt that they had not only gotten this injury, but they had lost that part of themselves. And we worked very diligently to try and bring that back as part of their rehabilitative process as well, too. So I think your perspective of empathy and understanding, I think, I think really goes a long way in the healing process. And I bet also, you know, just with you, with giving testimony and I can't, I just, I'd done a few forensic things way back in the day and man, I was, I could not. I would never want to do, you know, on stand kinds of things we'd do in camera reviews and we, you know, would provide reports and this is. And that. But man, again, I tip my hat to you because those opposing counsel oftentimes can just be, you know, relentless and not, Not a fun way to spend your day.

So, yeah, definitely fun. The first time I did it, Chris, I remember getting up from the witness stand and I got in the elevator with the plaintiff counsel.

Oh, gosh.

And he looked at me and he goes, are you okay? And I said, the back of my dress is soaked. Like I was cross examined by the defense counsel. And it was relentless. And just writing the reports. You always were writing your med rehab report, thinking about what could they come back and ask you. So even though you have this university education with extensive medical rehabilitation vocabulary, we were always told to write at a grade 7, 8 level because the jury is diversified, keep it simple, keep it logic. And yeah, it was. I do not miss that, Chris. I will tell you that wholeheartedly. I do not miss it. But again, the whole left brain, right brain thing, it was nice to have combination of the logic and the creativity together.

Yep.

Defense counsel, but I mean, they're doing their job too. So I always, I always sit in the observer's chair because I think when we sit in the observer's chair and think, okay, why are they doing this? It's. It's never to be a personal attack. They're just trying to defend their client in this particular example. But yeah, I don't miss that at all. And every time they ask me to come back, I like, nope.

Thank you. Been there, done that. So well. Okay, now I'm going to do another segue. So speaking of traumas, earlier than, than that, career wise, you also wrote in your book that you moved around a lot. Why was that? And were those moves traumatic? I mean, you talked about being bullied. Now is it a whole new set of Kids that didn't understand what was going on with you and you know, just here we go again or what was that like?

Yeah. My, my dad was an entrepreneur. He went. Was third generation pipe covering and insulation and wherever the big work was, he went. He also had other businesses on the side and we would just get settled in a school. Sometimes it was one year, sometimes it was two. But I was always the new kid on the block. So the last move was when I was 14. I was in a small rural high school of 288 kids.

Wow.

And they went on strike. So I was in. I was going into grade nine. My sister was in grade 13 and my dad was quite ill. So we were moved up to where we are now in London, Ontario, Canada, to live with my nana so that we wouldn't lose. For me, my first year of high school and my sister, her graduating year of high school, the high school had 2200 children.

Wow. From 200.

Talk about social shell shock. And like in the country.

Yeah.

I was doing 4H, I was doing Pathfinders. We all hung out together.

Yeah.

The city, like it was a much different social circle and I had to pick a click and there was no 4H. That's not a city thing. And let's just say the, the social graces of the city girls was much different. I felt like I grew up, up quickly again. And I honestly think that was a precursor to help me when my dad died seven years later. I really do.

To kind of toughen you up or what?

Yeah. Like, here's what you're handed. How are you going to deal with it? Because I didn't have a choice. So it was traumatic in that I didn't have a choice. I was a child, I was following what the family was doing. But I do have a lot of friends in a lot of different places. I will say that, that that's the benefit of going back and visiting because my sister did to that small rural community. And I've known these people since elementary school, so that's kind of one of the pluses. But always being the new kid and the eye patch and it was just a combination of things and it was like, okay, here we go again. But yeah, it made me, it made me tough and it made me even more resilient. I think it really was a catalyst to helping me deal with change and trauma and loss as a whole. You know, not that I wanted to be a frequent flyer to any of

those, but I truly was, it was, it wasn't that, you know, more you got drafted than signed up. So then is this, then what sort of set the basis? Because a lot of your, the, again, back to the memoir aspects of your writing, you talked about and I think you said, I can't remember if it's earlier in this conversation or pre and off mic, but about your Irishness. So. And like how this was part of aligning, you know, your life and your, your approach to leadership with morals and values. And I think what if, maybe if I can say, you know, kind of become part of your core beliefs, could, could you share some of that and in that context and in that development,

yeah, she was just an amazing woman. My mother was grief stricken because our, my oldest brother actually passed away at the age of four, long before me. Because I'm number five. I was the oopsie. And I don't think my mother. Well, I know for a fact my mother never went to grief counseling or had any therapy or any of that. I just don't think there was coping skills or anything to really help her navigate that. And as a parent now, how could you ever get over the loss of a child? And with us moving around so much and my dad's businesses, my mom never got to the point where she had coping skills. I think she had a very traumatic childhood. So there was a lot of mental health there, which they didn't call back then. And the coping strategy was pills and booze. Like that's what it was for anybody born in the 30s, unfortunately. So I think my nana saw that, that I was needing a little bit more, especially once I had the eye patch. And my, my siblings are all older and there just wasn't a fostered connection there. So she would take me every weekend from I can remember, like I remember her. I could hear her car turning on the street. And she would take me on the Friday after school and bring me back Sunday night. And she taught me so much. She taught me about being imperfect and, you know, kids are going to laugh because they don't understand. And she's the one that taught me the term outlier. She said, there's, you know, you can be an outlander or an outlier. And she said, take advantages of these challenges because they're shaping you. So she talked to me in a more mature, probably manner than most would, but she helped me really see what love and heart centeredness meant. And, you know, she would say to me, not everyone's going to be nice to you as you age, but you always have control of you, how you process things, how you want to respond to things and you need to keep going. And if you just do things the right way, she said, it'll all come back full circle. And she taught me about ego and how, you know, when I would get butterflies when I started speaking on the stage, she said, that's good. And I'd say, well, I feel like I'm going to throw up. And she'd say, that's good because you care about what you're going to say. And that lets me know that your ego is not present. And she said, you need to always maintain that. She taught me never to be focused on money in my business, which I haven't been. And when I focus on the goodness of who I am and what I can offer in service, the money has always come. So she taught me some really fundamental values at a young age, and I think I kind of grew into them. And as I matured, I was able to expand them when I went back to university, when I got some more work experience. And she just really helped me stay in that mindset. And it's kind of in unison with what my dad said sometimes maybe I thought I wasn't ready, but I had other people saying, you're ready. Don't shortchange yourself and, you know, more than you think. And just, you know, that authentic self, that self awareness is, is, I think, ever expanding for me. And that's why in the book I wanted to put her in there, because I love, I did the full circle life moments at the end. Kind of like the Kohl's notes. Like, here's what you can take. The way you said it, my superpower is making a difference because I'm always going to be and continue to be a heart centered leader. And if I can get more people to join me on this bandwagon and we can heal the world a little bit, I think it's going to have a lovely ripple effect of goodness in the world, world at large.

Yeah. All right, I have to unpack a couple of things with that. So, I mean, it sounds like your grandmother was a very sweet and wise woman and also a closet cognitive behavioral therapist.

Right?

Maybe not so closeted. No, we didn't. Yeah, she was.

She.

She beat us to the labeling of it and as well with a little dash of, you know, stoicism in it in the sense of, you know, you can't necessarily change others, but you can control yourself and, you know, get, get on with it and don't, you know, be the, the ego is the enemy, et cetera. So. And part of this too. I mean, it's, I love the, the aspect of hearing that a lot of what back to the core stuff of with your father and his words, you know, coming back to you here and there, you know, when they, you know, when it, it's a, the perfect moment for it and when you kind of need to, you, you remind yourself of what's been said and it, it works and it's so helpful. And then also your grandmother having, you know, these kinds of comments and you know, being fairly full throated about it, you know, not like, oh, everything's fine or oh, that, you know, which is, I think sometimes, you know, people's default grandmothers and fathers and anybody else's, but to be able to do what she said and, and have that be kind of part of, you know, your fabric and who you are. So that then maybe cues me up to. Then let's start to unpack. What are heart centered leadership qualities? And maybe can you give us some examples of maybe your experiences of it or how it's been applied for you as a professional as well as a person? Or let's dig into those. What are the heart centered leadership qualities for people to be able to understand that better?

Well, I have a poster that I will happily share with you that I created shortly after the podcast because I got to thinking from my experience in my life and as an entrepreneur, if I had to do a list of 20 and I decided there was 20 of them and I can just pick a few of them to chat about today, I, I reached out to a friend of mine in India by the name of Tanmay Vora and he's an HR specialist, but he is brilliantly proficient as an artist in sketchnotes. And him and I got chatting and I said I'd really love to hire you to do a sketchnote. So I commissioned him to do it and then I didn't hear from him for like four months and I had an intuition, I had a feeling something was wrong and I reached out, out. And he was so apprehensive to get back to me. His dad had fallen ill, he was working a lot, he was on two board of directors. And he said, I just haven't had time. This was in November and I hadn't talked to him for four months previous to that. And I said, when the time is right, you will create this. And on January 4th of 2021, he sent it to me and he said, I want to gift this to you. Because he said, as I was creating it, I realized how powerful it was and how much it helped me.

Wow.

So we, we came up with 20 and they range from truthful all the way through to striving to mentor. And I think if I, if I had to pick three to talk about them today, the first one I would pick is number three, modeling self care. Especially after what we chatted about with the executives. Self care has always had a slant of being selfish. And coming from the disability management world, the whole language and context, Chris, of corporate wellness has really changed. What I used to mitigate in getting people back to work, I'm now doing as a lunch and learn to ensure people are taking proper breaks. Everybody's working in different modalities now. Some people are back to the office, some people are part time, some are hybrid, some are remote. So this really took on a really deeper conversation about modeling self care, especially in the midst of COVID when managers in C suites were talking to me about productivity and press presence. And we could do a whole other podcast on that.

Yeah.

But the nuts and bolts are you have to model self care because when you do, you're showing your authentic self, you're demonstrating self awareness. And it's not a bad thing to take a break because if you're going to keep going the way you were going and land up in burnout, that brings you back to that conversation of the five executives. And at the end of the day, work is work. But if we don't have our health and we don't model self care, then we're not sending a clear message to our, our staff, our peers, all. It's all encompassing, really.

Yeah. It's funny how the evolution has been like, I gosh, this is mid-90s probably till the dot com bust of, you know, people took great pride in telling other people how little they sleeped. Slept.

Yeah.

You know, and just I, I remember like seeing a poster and it was like, it's something. It was like work, eat, sleep, work, eat, sleep, work.

Yeah, you know, it was like a badge of honor.

Yeah. Yeah. The less you, the more you worked and the less you slept, the, you know, bigger deal you were. And, you know, I get it with the startup mindset and blah, blah, blah, but I don't even think today that, I mean, I work still with a lot of startups and founders and, you know, I think people have much greater appreciation even. Well, I'll tell you too, also with medical school training and residency programs, you know, like, hey, I'm going to be up for 48 hours straight in a stressful environment, in an Emergency room room. And I'm going to do really good quality work and learn a lot as a, you know, as an ER doc. It's like, no, no, it's not. That's, that is not good. That is not, you know, I don't want, I don't want the guy, the guy or gal flying the airplane to do that same thing, you know. So why would I want the, you know, a physician, you know, dealing with an emergency of mine or a loved one, you know, having done that? So I think it is really, you know, kind of becoming more of an appreciated balance to that. And I love the fact because it, like you've, I think you said earlier too, like just about with being a leader and the trickle down of that of, you know, modeling what expectations are. I mean, it's one thing to say, you know, some, you know, heroic thing, it's another thing to show the behavior of it as your, as your Irish Nana would want to see. You know, it's more so the behaviors and the actions rather than just, you know, platitudes.

It's like when companies say this is our brand, this is our branding message, and then the behavior of the leadership team does not evoke that message.

I think that's part of the quiet quitting, you know, phenomenon. Absolutely as well too. So. Sorry, I think I cut you off. Sorry.

Yeah, no, it's. And, and I have seen that and I, I made a decision to leave a company because of that. They had it painted on their wall and they had, oh, they did. They had a beautiful brochure with their mission statement said to the chro. I said, wow, it's a wonderful, wonderful printing job. But I said, I, I can't stay as a heart centered leader coaching because what I'm trying to coach is falling on deaf ears. And the words are beautiful, but the deeds aren't matching it.

Wow, good for you. Well, and again, that's, you know, you hope other people sort of start to get that and that, you know, that's the language that leaders need to see that, you know, these kinds of actions if it's going to be the people that you're expecting to manage or to be leading, you know, that they're going to. Now today, I think is much more than, you know, maybe 10 plus years ago, that authenticity that you want to see with your leaders. Because today with social media and everything else, you know, people can get defrocked, you know, the emperor can have no clothes and be found out pretty quickly. I think these days.

Absolutely.

I want to Highlight something for our listeners too. Back to your 20 qualities. Is this because looking at the draft, I think I saw these in the book and that they're. Am I correct in remembering. Is it like 25 languages too? It's available in. Is that right?

Yeah. We put this out for free download once Tanmay finished it and it's been downloaded over 85,000 times. But a COO said to me, me for a factory. He said two of my leads were Speak. Their first language was different than English and that's what kind of spawned that. And I just kept getting asked to translate it. So now it's in the top 25 languages spoken around the globe.

That is so cool. Well, we'll put links in the show notes and I'm pretty sure I can. Or maybe just send me when you have a chance and I'll put it, reprint it if it's okay. With your permission and LinkedIn in the write up we'll do for this episode. And you also kind of back to the book and back to these points for people to soon find out once they buy your book that in your resources sections you've got a manifesto, you've got a bill of rights, you've got affirmations, you've got the 20 qualities that we talked about. And then you actually have a depiction of the Heart centered model which again, maybe back to the book nerdiness and stuff is, you know, what I want to circle back to in just a couple of minutes. But again I just think those are great and maybe I can jump ahead and then we can circle back. But how, how did you come up with like putting that together in this? You know, you've got your self reflection questions, you've got the full circle of life moments that you, you know, share in there. But was that something collaboratively with one of your editors? Is that just a good communication style that you were able to put together based upon all the other writing you do? Or how did that come about?

These are all tools that I've created within my leadership and executive coaching practice.

Okay, good.

So it's, it's extra tools that I like to add in for my leaders to have in their toolkit. And the, the Heart Centered Leadership model is the model for the series of courses that I created for our local college that I'm still teaching to this day.

Wonderful. Great. Okay, good. Thank you. So now let's circle back. I think when we talked about these qualities, you wanted to highlight three and so you said that you like self care is now one. What Were the other two, can we unpack those?

I think if I, if I had to pick two other ones that I think, I think they all have their level of importance in place. I think the second one would be mindful of words, number 12. 12, especially in email. I think sometimes, yeah, our brain says one thing, our fingers type another, and oh my goodness, can our verbal expression ever get misconstrued? So a lot of times I always say, if it's a sensitive topic, how about a face to face or a phone call? And being mindful not only of our words, but what modality you're going to choose to express those words. We often mean to say one thing, but sometimes it doesn't come out like that, especially if you've got a big team and you're addressing a sensitive issue. And the other big one that I think is really important is number 13, which is attentive listening. I can say I think Covid made this worse for a lot of leaders to the point where I was having them turn off their camera during meetings so they could really focus, focus. And for the ones that were really challenged, they turn their camera off and they close their eyes just so I could do a little bit of a cognitive exercise with them. Because too often when they have a tsunami of information coming at them and they have a nanosecond to make a decision or delegate, they're thinking about that and they're not being present to the conversation that they're in with others. And I think when we are preoccupied, we are missing out on a beautiful opportunity of connecting with a person or a group of people. So those would be three of ones that I would kind of put in the forefront if you're asking me to pick. But all 20 have a place they're not meant to be utilized or exercised every day. And I use this in a fun way for context with a leader when coaching and team building to say, what are the top three qualities you possess today and why and which one are you working on and why? That second question opens the floodgates for vulnerability, which gives alignment to a team and an organization at large.

I love that. I mean it feels like, you know, there's, there's never a linearity to these kinds of things. You know, it's not like number one is the highest priority. It's not like they're rank ordered or something. And even like the point you made, like about like the closing the eyes, it makes me think of like Daniel Kahneman's, you know, thinking fast and slow flow. I mean People's responses under certain circumstances, you know, pressure, fatigue, not having taken, you know, done that self care that you talked about before can result in a certain kind of answer that can be, you know, catastrophic for, you know, colliguality of the team. People can misinterpret things. It can be, you know, catastrophic for the organization itself. And these kinds of things, I think in the context, I don't, I think very few people would argue with any of them. I mean, they're really self evident, but it's also nice to see them so specifically articulated. And I could almost see like you talked about being in whatever language, on whatever wall someplace for people to kind of almost just have like a refresher. I mean, I could see that being a nice way to start your workday to take a look and take your own emotional pulse if it were to say, well, what am I firing pretty good on all these. Is there something I need to take a minute for and assess what's up with this aspect or that aspect? Am I feeling so tired and so fatigued because I haven't been eating well or sleeping well or exercising enough so I'm not properly doing my self care, which is then going to impact me being crappy at this next meeting that I've got to go to or something. So I really like that aspect of being able to have those kinds of things and I think they differ from the aspirational kinds of things that you might see like in your manifesto or literally the affirmations or the Bill of Rights as aspect. So. Okay, well, I know I, I don't want to spend all day talking about, you know, I mean, you and I, my gosh, Deb, we could, you know, spend hours about these kinds of things. I really, I encourage people to, to, to get your book and to have it, you know, on their shelf and to be able to use it as a reference. But if you don't mind, can we pivot a smidge and then start to talk about some of the, the mechanics of putting the book together and what, what went into the, the sausage grinder before we, we had it out. So, so like, I think I queued up earlier. You've been a co author on four prior books, so it's not like you're totally naive to the writing process. You've got your newsletters, et cetera, or even the book publishing process. But how, like, obviously, since there's such a memoir aspect to it, I'm presuming. And the kinds of things like you said earlier, like, you know, you've got 30 years of life experience. This is the opportunity to articulate those and to share those and to, you know, it's probably a learning experience for you to kind of put some things together and reconcile things and make a, make the story make sense so that makes sense to other people. But can you talk about maybe more the, the mechanical aspects of the writing and the design? I saw, you know, an early galley of it, so it's, I know it's going to look physically different obviously when, when it comes out, but nevertheless I saw, you know, like your design with what we talked about earlier of the manifesto and the tools and things at the end. So when it, now that it's getting ready to be released, you've just, at the time that we're recording this, your, your final cover is, you know, also just, you know, been released and shared to the, with the world. But did you maybe compare and contrast this with your prior co authored books? Did, did you have an agent for this? Did you go solo on this or if you had an agent, why did you have an agent? How did you get that agent? I've never used an agent, so I'm curious about that. But maybe just even tell us about this aspect, which really isn't the writing per se, but the business.

I met Professor Eric Koster on LinkedIn and he is a professor at Georgetown. And a colleague of mine who's an agile coach for Sony Pictures in Hollywood said, I'm joining a cohort and I'm going to write a book. Book. And let me introduce you to Professor Eric and you should talk to him. And that was May of last year. And he interviewed me and I shared kind of my idea. And he was kind of like you with your sentiments. He's like, that'd be really cool like if you took a memoir and added in all your heart centered leadership knowledge and all the tools you're using. And so he accepted me into his cohort and then I, I got sick last summer.

Oh.

So I started writing and then I got moved to the fall cohort and then I picked back up in the fall. And I remember the day I submitted my manuscript in March and it was like, it's done. So where did I go? I kind of coached myself. And I'm always saying, because a good conversation, regardless if you're a coach, it doesn't matter matter. What is your leadership story? And one of my favorite quotes that I like to share is leadership is not one specific element. So each of us are leaders and we bring our own Uniqueness to whatever we do. So again, it's not our title, it's not our role, it's not the page of responsibilities that makes us a great leader. It's the sum of our life, our work, and our academic experience that offers us the ability to be a great leader. So I've had journals and word docs. I just got them all together. I scanned all the journals, I created a folder on Google Drive and I dumped everything in there. And then I kind of went, oh my God, that's a lot.

It didn't just self organize into a book. Book, huh? Yeah.

And I, and I have to tell you, like when I printed my book to send it to you and I held it in my hands, I was really emotional for the first time because everyone's like, oh, congratulations. Are you excited? And I'm like, I, I don't know, I think when the box lands on the porch and I open it and I hold my book.

Yeah.

I think maybe the water works will come.

Yeah.

I just feel, I feel proud. I've shared my leadership journey since I was a young girl. I've shared how things that happened in my life impacted, you know, how I choose to love, who, who I am, why love has a place in my leadership. But I wanted to share how my life experiences impact, how do, how do I handle triggers, how did I handle eruption, how did I deal with anger and sadness and grief and you know, leaders that have huge power and ego. And I realized during this process that all of my major transformation started with the delivery in small quantities of adapting back to core values or looking at how I, I decided to respond or not respond to something. And I think when I. Why I integrated my own personal journey is because I remember my mentor, Steve McClure, who I, I lost a few years ago to stomach cancer. He used to say to me, you don't need to boil the ocean.

Love it. Oh, that's great.

Synonymous to what my nana taught me.

Yeah, yeah.

And I try to convey in my coaching that if you want to learn from your mistakes, then you have to lose the rinse and repeat modality. Because if you don't acknowledge and have your own level of self awareness, you're not evolving. And even to this day, you know, every day, I want to be a better leader than I was yesterday. And we're a leader in all the aspects of our personal life, in our marriages with our children. I want to instill that for my children and now my granddaughter. And it doesn't come with perfection, but it truly is a culmination of all of our life experiences. And for me, it's visceral because I've been through so much and heart centered leadership is my constitution and I will never waver from it.

I love it. Yeah. And it really is a united, uniting thread through all the things that you do. And again, just to the fabric, to play the cliche even further, I mean, just to the fabric of who you are as a person and as a leader and as a thought leader. So with this cohort, let's circle back to that. You took that little break because of the illness. You got back into things. You've got this humongous file of scanned information and notes and this is. And that. And then you start to structure it into what ultimately becomes comes this manuscript. And I appreciate too, with the. Just personally, you know, sending it to me because like I. I shared with you, I'm such a nerd. I just have to write in margins. I have to put little tabs on it and I have to, you know, circle back and pull dog ear pages. So I just, I can't do it with a PDF. I just, I just feel like a dinosaur. But I just have to play with it and ink it all up. But the with. With notes, not with criticisms, with notes. No red ink on yours, Deb. So. So I never.

With your heart pen.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which is pretty darn cool too, by the way. So inside joke. But then structuring it with this cohort. Did you guys share your manuscripts with each other beforehand or what was the benefit of working with this cohort? Did you bounce ideas off each other?

It was really structured, a phenomenal program. We would have workbooks, weekly cohort meetings.

Nice.

There was a lot of relationships and friendships that have come out of that. And I have two cohorts because I started with a cohort who I kept in touch with and their books got published just ahead of mine. And then I got my new cohort when I resumed in the fall. But no, it was a very structured, disciplined program. I also did a lot of interviews with people I talked to, my clients, my friends, my family. Like you, I'm as nerd as you. I love the post it notes, the pen. I'm the same as you. A lot of books that I read, pages are dog eared and post it note. And I'm always thinking, right, how. Where did they come up with that? Or I'd like to ask that. So I allowed what I frame as Mastering the Art of Heart to, To bring some of those attributes to pulling this together as a manuscript. So equanimity, one of my favorite words. Why do you have mental calmness and composure or when don't you? To really hone in on the definition of heart centered leadership, which is my definition. Honoring your connection with people. How can you intrinsically validate someone? How do you master the art of stepping into their world to see the world through their vantage point or create that real connection? How often can you sit in the observer's chair without judgment or emotion? Can you have empathetic influence? So I was thinking about some of the ideas I had. I had a lot of interviews to get other opinions. And then I would come up with the structured chapters where I'm teaching something or showing my tools. And then I just knew where I needed to put the story in to further augment what I'm trying to teach. So I was using my leadership to give all of you a worldview of my life in the hopes that maybe it makes you a little bit deeper human. And then a good question. What is in your leadership toolkit? And it's not all just from school and tools and different things because there's no tool out there. There's no one size fits all. And I think if anything, that was either a big message for me as I was pulling, you know, the book together and thinking about all the values of heart centered leadership and values that I had learned from my nana. And people and behavior have to come before process and tools.

I like that. That's a good quote.

Well, and I think, you know, let's have, let's have working tools instead of comprehensive documentation. I'm not saying it's not good to have comprehensive documentation, but sometimes you have to have working tools, tools in the interim, especially if we're changing things. Right?

Yeah.

And if, if people come first, like if customer service could be in the forefront over contract negotiation, then we can always pivot with change instead of following a plan. There's got to be some looseness and some less structure sometimes because where while there's value in, in items that we're talking about today, we have to be able to pivot, negotiate, debate sometimes. And soft skills are definitely the precursor to any extrinsic or systemic processes which I talk about on the daily. And that self awareness is really your metacognition. How you think about thinking and what habits you're bringing to work and unpacking from your life that show up in your job. And that's one of my most favorite lines in the book is life shows up in our work and work shows up in our life and nobody ever disagrees on that.

Yeah, you've got like a. You should have like a companion, one of just all the best quotes from it, right? Yeah. And there's such. I mean, it's probably just the psychologist in me, but I mean, there's such psychological, you know, therapeutic, you know, aspect to those kinds of things for people to, you know, you bring voice to that and bring, you know, kind of, kind of call that out to be front of mind kinds of things because of people like how I started off in the introduction. There's some people that just kind of come in like a bull in a china shop and here's the rules and love it or leave it and blah, blah, blah, as opposed to the nuanced aspect of being heart centered in a person's leadership style of appreciation of who it is that I'm working with, my colleagues, my collaborators, my staff, whoever, my customers as well. And then what can I do from. And you've said sometimes using the word and other times implying the word empathy of whoever it is that we're working with. And keeping that to the fore, I think is really one of the key messages that I took away from the book and the process of how you did it, of weaving it into a story that it was very, I don't know, seamless. It wasn't like we like chapter to chapter hopped around or anything like that. You'd bring us back to a context. You would. It's very synthetic in an integrative kind of way. I mean, in a synthesis kind of way, which. Tip of the hat again. I just, I don't know that I could ever write like that. So I'm very envious of your process in doing that. And evidently, you know, you and your collaboration with your cohort, as well as your own innate skills in writing and being able to craft communication and story is, I think, really well done. So back to you and I being nerds about this. So how did you go about selecting a publisher and what was that process like?

Well, when I started with doctor or pardon me, Professor Eric Koester, that that was part of the workbook and he has done such a great job facilitating so many cohorts that he actually started a publishing company. Oh, excellent. So in the beginning we were going to have to look for an external publisher, and then he started manuscripts and so the whole process was seamless.

Wow.

A tremendous amount of work, very emotional, but felt like you had someone holding your hand the whole way.

I'm Envious.

And just all of the editors that I had, like, my developmental editor, I mean, I cried when I had to be done with him. And he's like, I'm buying your ebook. I can't wait to read this, you know, and then my structural editor, who's like, don't open my document for two days and don't be emotional. And, you know. You know, and then I have to say, my revisional editor, that was my favorite part, and most of my cohort hated that part. And for me, that's when I saw the fruits of my labor.

Tell us about that. What was that? What did they say?

Certain things that I wrote. And she's like, man, that one got me, man, that one.

Wow.

Where did you come up with that? You know, And I think I just. I had the right person. I think they matched me personality wise. And she had written five or six books, and she writes novels. And, you know, when she read the chapter on my Irish Nana, she goes, I've read this so many times that I'm still crying. And she's like, I wish I could have met your Irish Nana. Just. Yeah, just little nuances like that. And when I was experiencing massive imposter syndrome and having my cry with her, she's like, okay, we done? You're exactly where I want you to be. Okay, let's get to work. So she, you know, there was acknowledgement and validation, and then she's like, yep, I'm on book six and I still get it. Okay, let's go to chapter 11 and get to work. Like, she was just. She was amazing.

So that's nice. Did they.

She's actually asked to stay friends, which really means a lot to me.

I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised at all. So did these editors work with each other or was it like a linear, like the developmental. Once the developmental was done, then it got handed off to the structural or.

Correct.

Okay, Yep.

Yeah, we started with developmental, went into structural, then went into revisional. And then you start all the fun aesthetic things, finalizing the book cover, the layout out. And again, I am a creature who just loves discipline and structure. And, you know, everyone's like, where have you been? On LinkedIn. And I'm like, I've been writing a book.

I've been Heads down, man.

I've been a little busy. I've been in Monk Boat all summer. And truly, I can see now why other people have done this that I follow. And they're just like, you know, I didn't feel like it succumbed My life. But it kind of did because everyone, you know, thought I dropped off the link, where's debate? And just I had to be all in with this because crafting this book was important to me, and I wanted to do it right. And it's funny, you know, and I'd love to know what you think. It's like when I used to write my medical reports and my typists would say, okay, is this one done? And I would say to her, I don't. I feel like I need to add something else. I'm not quite ready, but stay on me to have it done in a week. And I would sit and look back through my notes and think about my hospital visits or home visits, and it would always come to me. And I'm a yoga teacher, and I meditate a lot because I think when we have equanimity and clarity, I really think we do our best work regardless of what we're doing. And I just would sit with the chapter, and even when I was deciding the flow of the chapter, and it was a lot of feedback from beta readers like yourself, and I knew I had the flow and the sequence right when the first three beta readers came back and they were like, I love how this flows. I love that you teach us something and then you give us a story, and then you anchor it back and give us the Coles notes. And just little things that were important to me really resonated with my readers. And that's when I knew that I took the extra time and the outcome was what I wanted it to be.

Well, I think it's a tangible expression of your superpower, of your left and right brain, Deb, you know.

Yeah, I got the logic and the creativity.

Exactly. Yeah. And it's. It's. People can hold it in their hands. I think it's, you know, you raise, again, a good point. It makes me think of the. You know, there's. It's one thing to have a digital electronic newsletter. You know, it's one thing to have a auditory podcast, and it's one thing to give a talk, you know, 20 years ago or whatever, but there's a certain longevity and legacy, I think, for you, making it part of a memoir, of having a book like this, because you took, as you said, you had all these journals and all these diaries, all this content and all this material that you had done in real time at the time that now you can kind of go back to as reference and to distill down and think about and turn over and then that granddaughter of yours is going to be able to read that in 15 years or 10 years or whenever to be able to kind of then, well, who's this Irish nana that Grandmother Deb talked about, blah, blah, blah. And that, that will really become, become not just a tool for people today wanting to be more heart centered in their leadership, but also then as a legacy, you know, for your story and in your life. And that's why I really like the, the aspect of it being practical, actionable. You know, let's, you know, just be all business and buttoned down and stuff. But then let's also, you know, take a look at it in the context of the three guys that you talked about, you know, that spurred you into this in palliative care to say that this is, you know, this is seriously serious business. This is our lives and how we comport ourselves and what legacies and what stories, you know, we want to share with others as friends and colleagues as well as family and loved ones. So it's just, it was, it was very touching and an honor to be able to, you know, get, get an early copy and be able to, to enjoy it and to look at it in the context and learn, you know, more about you. I mean, you know, I've, you and I have known each other for 3ish years, 4 years now and, and these, I learned a lot more that you know, that I never knew and you know, didn't and now get this opportunity to, you know, pick your brain and ask some of these other kinds of questions too. So. Well, you have been very generous. Is, it's just been a great conversation. We've covered a lot. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that, that we should, that you want to bring up or how are.

Well, I'm just, I, I'm going to send you the book when it comes. I look forward to it and I'm sure, I'm sure you're still going to add some colorful post it not thing. But I just, I'm super grateful because we've got to know each other and I had you back on my podcast way back when and we had such a great conversation.

It was fun.

I, I love your, your Sunday morning newsletter on Facebook. I, as soon as it comes in, I got my coffee good and I love, I love our synergy. You talk about living a full life and I think there's a lot of similarities in, in the work that we do. So, so I'm just honored to have had this conversation and that you took the time to read my book. So just know I'm super grateful and sending you a virtual hug.

Okay, well right back at you my friend. I mean this is, it's been a treat. I've been looking forward to it and it just, you know, continues on. Just a very heart centered friendship and relationship that I feel like you and I share and I appreciate all the work you do in the world, all the things that you contribute to being able to be helpful to others. And having said that, are there some best ways to learn more about your work, your podcast, to get this book and your other co authored books, your newsletters, ways for people to connect and reach out with you?

We've actually just reworked the website to have everything in one central place and we've also done the same on Substack, but Debcro Crow has an E. Just means I'm Irish.

Okay, got it. All right, well good. And we'll put links into that in the show notes in case someone's going on a long run and has been listening to this episode. So we'll put all that in the show notes and then I'll also for the write up that I'll do On this for LinkedIn and Medium, we'll put in the the 20. We'll just do it in English, but we'll get that in there too. That's pretty, pretty cool stuff.

I think it's nice to share that with the world and we'll just keep on with that ripple effect.

Chris excellent. Excellent. Well Deb, thanks so much. Great to catch up my friend, and wishing you great success with the book and looking forward to what comes next.

Thanks Chris.

Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot, LLC. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website at lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information, uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks and until next time,