Robin Landa on Strategic Creativity, Effective Ideation, and The New Art of Ideas

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk, or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is sponsored by our new video course, how to Publish in the New Millennium. From Scientific Journals to Best Sellers, it's an asynchronous course offering so you can watch it when it's convenient for your schedule. It's based on eight video lessons and provides three hours of material with new concepts, stories and examples, and it includes several attempts and humor. 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We cover blogging and provide additional resources to help you in crafting your work and making it better. This is a rich, fun and fact filled course that covers everything you need to know from a practical and actionable perspective. It's for anyone wanting to get their written work into the world, be it academia, popular media, or both. Join the Master class in Getting Published. To learn more, please visit tinyurl.com getting publishedcourse thanks welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. In a world with a surplus of ideas, what separates a good idea from a bad one? How can we learn to cultivate a mindset that produces the kind of ideas people can't turn down? Many can't generate solid ideas. They may come up with tired or reused ones, or they may generate lots of ideas, but none that really have traction. A great idea presents as a well formulated thought or plan of action that spurs growth, change, advancement, adaptation, or new insight. Worthwhile ideas move the needle. They can change the playing field altogether. One of the most innovative thinkers in this area is Professor Robin Landa, author of the New Art of Unlock your Creative Potential, which is designed to help readers consistently produce worthwhile ideas by becoming nimble and imaginative thinkers. Robin holds the title of Distinguished professor at the Michael Graves College at Kean University. She's written 25 books about creativity, graphic design, advertising, design, branding, and drawing, and they include Strategic Creativity A Business Field Guide to Advertising, Branding and Design, which is a number one ranked new release in two different categories on Amazon, which is really pretty cool. Nimble thinking creatively in the digital age, Graphic design solutions, designing brand experiences, and advertising by design, just to name a few. She's won numerous awards for her writing, research, teaching, design and humanitarian work. Robin is a former Chair of the Governance Board of Design Incubation, a design research and practice organization, and serves as a creative consultant to the C suites of various international corporations. Named one of the Great Teachers of our Time by the Carnegie foundation, she has taught university students as well as industry professionals how to generate worthwhile ideas. It's no surprise people consider Robin as a creativity authority, but she's more than that as she uses her creative powers for good, not evil. With a strong moral compass, she asks students and the faculty she mentors, as well as many Fortune 500 clients. She advises, how does your goal benefit individuals, society, or our planet? How can your idea make life better? Robin champions her students, advocates for industry, inclusion and equity, and provides university scholarships for meritorious students and students in need. Like many creatives, Robin produces ideas in various forms, writing, design, advertising, fine art, screenwriting, and of course, her pedagogy. This has resulted in awards from the National Society of Arts and Letters, the Art Directors Club of New Jersey, Graphic Design usa, and the National League of American Pen Women. She was named Kean University Teacher of the year in 2013 and has received several Kean Presidential Excellence Awards for her research in the humanitarian space. She received the 2015 Human Rights Educator Award, and her student design team has won humanitarian awards as well. Robin has jury design and advertising competitions and the Crack the Spine Literary Journal has published several of her short stories, one of which was nominated for Best of the Net. She's lectured at Columbia University and has another book titled Shareworthy Storytelling for Advertising, to be published by Columbia University Press. Hey Robin, it's great to have you

on the show thank you for such a generous introduction, Chris. I'm honored to be with you. I'm a huge fan of yours.

Oh, well, thank you. I think you are just kind of the poster person for Renaissance woman. Renaissance person. So I'm anxious to kind of get a little bit below the surface and learn more about all this. So there are just so many things I want to talk to you about. But maybe a good starting place is could you maybe kick us off with this nonlinear path to design and creativity and also academia?

Sure. My interests are so varied. I really respect people like yourself who are polymaths. And so I really always think about how to connect different fields so that we can really boost our creative thinking by cross thinking. It's a kind of interesting way. Like if I read something about history or I go to the opera, I always think, how does this relate back to my field?

And you. It's so. In doing your background, it is so diverse from. From the areas. Because this is like you. Was it doing fashion design for your Barbies? Let's even go back to that era. Tell us about that and then bring us up to date.

Oh, my goodness, yes. Well, when I was little, I really wanted to be a fashion designer and a dancer. I mean, we all have, you know, we all have three or four things that we want to be. But I would cut up my poor mother, I would cut up some of her necklaces and clothes and my clothes to make design fashions for my Barbie doll. And I would draw fashions also in my. My paternal grandfather was in the dress manufacturing business and so many design illustrators, fashion designers. And when he came over, my mother showed my illustrations to him and he said, well, she must have copied them. And my mother said, no, she didn't copy them. Invents them. And so that was kind of my story. Art in design, although I didn't follow the fashion track.

Gotcha. So, and then you also. Did you lean more into just the fine arts and art and drawing?

Yes, actually, one of my masters is in painting, and I really wanted to be a painter. And then I have another master's in art history. And then after all of that, I went back to take undergraduate courses in advertising, art direction and in graphic design, and switched careers.

And I would imagine the bit that I know about you, that all of those kinds of what some people might see as diverse activities are really sort of additive, if not formative, to what you bring to the classroom now and to your writing.

Oh, I love the way you said that. Absolutely. I really think that by having that background, the art history really taught me how a graduate degree in art history really taught me how to do research, how to conduct research. That in a way. But as you know from a doctoral program that you don't get in undergraduate school and then the fine art program really taught me a great background in fundamentals of thinking about visual communication and really having great breadth in terms of artists from all centuries. And so I bring that to visual communication. And I don't think think that the standard Bachelor of Fine arts program in graphic design or advertising has that kind of breath.

Yeah, I would say not. So that I think is one of your maybe your superpowers. Well, maybe we can start to construct this as a conversation with using your latest book. I know you've got like a bunch going on, but I just kind of want to make our focus today on this conversation the New Art of Ideas. But I have to tee this up, as is my habit, to say a little bit more about what some others have said about it, so Dr. Gregory Turner Raman at the University of Idaho said Robin Landa rewrites old notions and assumed truths about ideation through sharp observations and top tier examples from real world case studies. The book excellently prepares the reader to generate worthwhile ideas that harness diversity and encourage cultural and environmental and creative stewardship. Furthermore, Dr. Tricia M. Farwell, Associate professor at the School of Journalism at Middle Tennessee State University, said the Art of New Ideas helps readers see beyond asking questions when developing ideas to push them to think strategically by focusing on what she calls the three GS. This blending of creative aspects with strategic thinking encourages those following her guidance to to come up with ideas that are not simply new, but that are high value concepts worth pursuing. This book is ideal for anyone, from student to experienced professional who wants to take their intellectual curiosity to the next level. And David Baldwin, there's many more, but these are these are my highlight reels for you, Robin. David Baldwin, the author of the Belief Economy, said there are many books trying to formalize idea generation, but but few offer such a simple formula as the three GS which helps you quickly create and evaluate an idea and point it into a new and powerful direction. This book does something few do. It provides an actionable way to move forward and create worthwhile ideas that will meet a need in the marketplace. And those are well earned accolades. Rob and I have to agree. I really enjoyed your book. How did this one come about? What spurred it?

I have students I have to teach my students, my university students to generate ideas and when they go out into the industry, into the profession of becoming art directors or copywriters or graphic designers or brand designers, they have to generate many ideas daily. And it's not just one idea for a year. They have to work with a team and generate ideas. And I noticed that they had frustrations with the existing idea generation models. And so I created my own, and I was been doing it for a long time. And one student came back after she had secured an internship at a very prestigious New York City agency. And she was there for a week. And she came back and she was very excited. And she said, robyn, I have to tell you that I'm on a creative team. And they asked us to solve this advertising problem. And I said, well, I have this idea, and I have that idea, and I have this other idea. And she said, the creative director loved all of my ideas. And the other interns were just sitting there. Well, I guess it's time to codify this and share it. And then another student who didn't have me as a professor had gotten a job, and they had asked her to generate an idea. And she messaged me and said, how do I do that real quick?

Hey, Robin.

Yeah, exactly. Real quick. And I thought, okay, Chris, you're exactly right. I said, okay, how do I teach this to her really quick? Through your Facebook messenger. And that's how I did it. And then I approached this publisher, Barrett Kohler, and I met with Steve Pirasante, who's the founder of Barrett Kohler and a senior editor. And he said, well, we already have a book on how to get ideas, and it does very well. Why should I publish yours? And I said, well, let me tell you.

Make yourself comfortable. Here we go.

Make yourself comfortable. It's a new method, and there hasn't really been a new method that's easy to use since 1953.

Oh, my gosh. Was that brainstorming? Is that.

Yes.

Oh, my gosh. 1953. Unbelievable. Wow. In the world of creatives, no one was creative about being creative.

Well, it's a really hard thing to offer a system for. I mean, people. There's question storming. People have written about that, and that's great, but it doesn't actually explain how to form the idea. And then other people have other little hints, but there's really no forming of the idea in any of these systems. And that's what I was really interested in because that's what my students needed.

That's so great. I want to get back into the creative side of things. But I nerd out on the, like, the construction of books and stuff. I'll probably weave this back in here and there. But I was also kind of impressed. I mean, you kind of walk the talk if people haven't had a chance to see your book or do a look inside on Amazon or anything. But the book itself is really beautifully designed. And as I read the actor Holly Taylor, who's, like, on Manifest and the Americans and a number of other things, did the illustrations and reading in the afterword, it was sort of like, you know, I think a bucket list kind of thing for her. And the result was beautiful and actually quite powerful. How did you two get together and start that collaboration?

Oh, thank you for asking about that, because I just love the work that she created.

Yeah, yeah.

Holly was my student in the.

No kidding. Okay.

Excuse me. At Kean University. She is, as you said, a working actor. And she was. When she applied to Kean, she was on the Americans, and she needed a university who would be flexible about her schedule because she has to be on set or on location. And our associate dean, Rose Canela, said, sure, we'll be flexible. Come on in.

Wow.

Excuse me. And Holly was my student in a couple of courses, and I mentored her. And she's just talk about polymaths. She was on Broadway in Billy Elliot as a child. She's a ballet dancer, she's a painter, she's an illustrator, she's a designer, she's an art director. And of course, she's on Manifest, which broke it number one on Netflix.

Wow.

And people just. She was with me yesterday for our book launch at the university.

Oh, wonderful.

And people just. I mean, like, I was in the corner, you know, I don't blame them. She's this gorgeous, young, vibrant celebrity.

Wow. Well, how fortunate for her to have you as a professor and mentor and now collaborator. I mean, that's. That the synergy between that is just touching. I. I had an opportunity a long time ago to work on a book set with Prager. And we'll. You and I will share some more stories about a shared publisher, Wiley, maybe later on. But it's like you get the contract and everything's, you know, you know, roses and butterflies. And then I sort of had this panic attack of going, oh, my gosh, I cannot deliver by the deadline. It was an edited work. I did a couple of chapters, authored them myself, but most of it was edited work with contributors. And I was like, I can't. You know, a month out, I knew I was just going to, you know, Trip out of the gates and not be able to make do on my contract. So I went to one of the schools where I was adjunct and was able to recruit four graduate students that were able to help, you know, write the chapters, put things together. They got authorships if they were the sole author, co authorships if they co authored. And, you know, before they even graduated, they had, you know, publications on their CV that they could do. And it was, it was, it was just wonderful for me because, you know, it was such a benefit that they were, they were really cool folks. They were really into it. It was a project where they got interview people that were sort of there, you know, on their all star list. Founders of, like Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International is a book on humanitarian intervention. And it was just, it was wonderful for all of us. And the proverbial, you know, high tides raise all ships. We were able to hit our deadline, make our publisher happy. Hopefully readers like the book. I think the people that got interviewed by graduate students, you know, were kind of enjoyed that probably more than the ones that I interviewed, you know, so it's, it's a wonderful collaboration. It's a wonderful kind of meta model to be able to do that with students. So I totally get that.

Well, that was very generous of you. What a great opportunity for them.

It was mutually fun and I think I got the better end of the deal. So back to this whole aspect of the process of effective ideation and getting spontaneous texts from students in the moment and whatnot. But the book really kind of helps readers unlock creative potentials and give some tools for that. And maybe the fundamental tool in that toolkit is this conceptualization of the three GS of every good idea. Could you maybe just for listeners that haven't had a chance to pick up the book yet, could you maybe step through what those GS, what they by name and then kind of what they compose, what makes them up?

Absolutely. Thank you for asking. The first G is a goal, so that's pretty easy. It's really what you want to achieve. And a lot of people think that a goal is an idea, but it's not. It's just what you want to achieve. There's a gap, and the gap I find really fascinating. And I learned about finding a gap. And I'm sure you know this really well through doing literature searches. When academics or researchers are looking through what exists, what literature, what research exists, we're often looking to see what void we can fill. Right. How can we move the discipline forward? And in advertising and in branding, a gap isn't what is your competitor not doing that you can do? How can you differentiate yourself? So those two aspects of different disciplines or processes really made me realize how important it is to find a gap. So, example, is there a missing piece in research? Is there a missing product or missing service? Is there a crack in the research? Is there an area that's not been explored? For example, think about the fact that we send things into space, but can we transport cargo back and forth to outer space? Well, somebody has started to do that. That was a gap. Is there an unconserved audience or an unconsidered group of people? Is there a lack of understanding about how something works, a method that should be tested or retested, a new method of delivery? So think about messenger RNA is a new medicine, a new class of drugs. Is there a new operating system? Is there? Oh my goodness.

Sorry, you're a popular person. No worries.

I'm sorry.

No worries.

Is there a more sustainable method, a toxic free method? And very importantly, is there a way to address the world's chronic crises like hunger, poverty, clean water for all, human trafficking and so on. And then there's a gain. And that one's pretty easy. That's what's the benefit? What's in it for individual society, creatures or our planet? Because I really think that if it's just frivolous, it's not good. We really need to think about what we can do to benefit humanity.

I really respect that. And that, you know, kind of in your intro about using these powers for good and not evil. And it seems like, you know, obviously my point of view, my lens tends to be towards the humanitarian kinds of things. And even just as you step through those, it makes me see how those can kinds of fit on, you know, different projects and whatnot. And you know, there's always going to be a linearity of saying these. But by design, you say in the book that a person using your tools could use those G's in any order. There's no orthodoxy or canon that says they have to be always goal, gap, gain. But they can be gain, gap, goal, they can be gap, goal, gain. So could you maybe talk about that, maybe toss out a couple of examples how we could use them in different directions?

Sure. So you're exactly right. It's a fluid process. If you notice a gap, you can start there. Or if you notice a gain. So for example, Sal Khan was a hedge fund manager in Boston at a financial firm when his family called and said that his tween niece Nadia needed, wanted to get onto the advanced math track in her middle school, and would he please tutor her. And of course, being the very nice man that he is, he said, sure. And he created these little videos for her to advance in math, and she did. And then more relatives called, and then friends of those relatives called, and Kahn saw the gain. He saw that this really helps having videos to go back to so that you can level up or redo something. And he then realized that there's a gap, that unless you have money, you really can't get tutoring after school. Wealthy children can get tutoring very expensive per hour. I don't think people realize that tutors can cost anywhere from $95 to $200 an hour, which is out of the zone for most working families. And so he left his hedge fund job and he created Khan Academy, which I think is one of the great organizations of our time, where students can get free tutoring in almost any subject. And now he's even moved it, pushed it further to where you can get live tutoring, and it's all free. So he saw the game.

Yeah. That's wonderful. That is wonderful. So you. Well, actually, I've interrupted my own question. So do you want to give us a couple of other examples maybe how those have gone in the G's in a different order?

Sure. Thank you, Kat. Nori was in her kitchen making lunch for her children and three children, and she was using the single disposable plastic sandwich bags. And she thought, this is really wasteful. And she realized that there was a gap in the industry that there is no. Or at that point, there was no reusable sandwich bag. And she created Stasher, which you can use that reuse that sandwich bag about a thousand times, a silicone sandwich bag. And it was so successful that Johnson bought it from her. So she started with a gap, and a lot of people start with a gap, which is a pain point. Right. Like, what is something? So if you think of oxo, the product design company, the owner noticed that his wife, who has arthritis, had trouble using certain existing things, like a can opener or a broom. And that was a pain point. So he thought, how do I fix this? How do I create a line of product design that is better for people, easier to use when you have limited mobility or difficulty? And everybody loves that product.

Yeah. Does that have overlap? I know you're at the Michael Graves College of Design. I have an undergrad degree in architecture, and so I know of him from that side of things. But he also did a lot of design, and then he did a lot of accessible design. Am I remembering that correctly or do I have that wrong?

Yes. Michael did everything. He did product design and architecture and furniture design. And then towards the end of his life, when he was wheelchair bound, he started to think about accessibility. And I think he was in a hospital that he was in. He noticed how difficult it was if you were sitting in a chair with limited mobility and noticed so many different things and started really rethinking his processes. Just an extraordinary man and architect. We miss him so much.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you. With these examples, like, how did you come across them? I mean, I can kind of get maybe the OXO with Michael Graves, and maybe there's a little overlap in that Venn diagram. But you. You've got great. You've got, you know, True Name, you've got Fleming and Penicillin, you got Royalty Exchange, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, that they are so illustrative of kind of the points that you make. But how does someone go about. Is it through the literature reviewing process or how did you come up with those wonderful stories?

Exactly right, Chris.

Okay, good. All right. Well, it's nice to have a theory that gets verified every so often.

Exactly right. I mean, of course, I had favorites like wrote about Sal Khan, had to include him. He's one of my heroes. And Lin Manuel Miranda, one of my heroes. And I don't think most people know about Matt Hite and Ken Jones. Do you mind if I.

Please, no, absolutely. Yeah. Educate us.

Matt Haidt is a Microsoft software engineer. Microsoft software engineer. And he was scrolling through Twitter and he saw a photograph of an adaptive controller, a gaming controller that had been hacked or bespokely designed by and by Ken Jones, who runs the organization Warfighter Engaged. And it's an organization for severely wounded veterans. And Ken Jones creates an adaptive game controller for each veteran individually. So they're bespoke and it takes a long time. And Matt Hite reached out to him to find out about it and then thought he wanted to do something about this, too. So he went back to Microsoft, and they have a yearly summit where they investigate accessibility. And he put together a team to think about redesigning a gaming controller for people with limited mobility and extremely limited mobility. And it took years, and it took a lot of dedicated people at Microsoft, but Microsoft was the first big company to mass produce an adaptive controller. And there are. Would you believe it, in the US alone, there are 46 million gamers with limited mobility.

Wow. Wow. I Just, I love that it's so. And again, it kind of speaks to that humanitarian thread aspect too of, you know, what's. Because I could just see, you know, I have this negative stereotype of, you know, someone in a boardroom and you know, back in the 50s with smoke filled or whatever going what's the market for this? And it's not significant enough or whatever. But to, to do that in that kind of a way and to see that, you know, again, people are attempting to solve their own problems. But then when you can do a collaboration like what we've been talking about, it just really accelerates it and you know, is a very additive creative process in and of itself.

And unfortunately there are still a lot of those people that you just.

Are they okay? You would, you'd have better visibility. That's okay.

Well, I mean they're wonderful people like Sal Khan and Matt Hite and Lin Manuel Miranda, but there are people who are only interested in profit and like you, for me, that, that doesn't. That, that's not my jam.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean it has to be a triple bottom line and the triple bottom line starts with profit. But I, I kind of reverse that and I put people, planet, profit. So I mean in people and planet, it's, it's pretty much the same.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So, so One of the GS that I want to focus may gaps you in the book talk about. Maybe you can share with the audience now about how designers and leaders can think of gaps and, and what are ways to find a gap? I mean some, like what we've just been talking about is like the gap finds you, you know, the Khan Academy, that there was a need that came, you know, he wasn't sitting around at his hedge fund thinking, oh I should do educational videos or something. He didn't even go out to research it. It, it came to him. But is there, is it a, is it a two way street? Is it one of those things where you just sort of, you know, you know, necessity is the mother of invention or is it, is there a process, could you step us through a process of how to locate gaps if we're trying to come up with a creative idea?

Sure, thanks for asking. I think for, if you're, let's say you're a manufacturer, a gap. One way to easily think about gaps. Is there a new more sustainable method of manufacturing or is there a toxic free method or is there a way to give back to the earth rather than pollute the earth, for example? There's a new paper pill bottle. So I think a lot of people don't realize that the little plastic pill bottles that prescription medicine comes in are thrown away, they're too small to recycle, and so they just become toxic landfill. And somebody at Saatchi and Saatchi Wellness thought about that and thought, what's the life cycle of this little bottle? And he approached a package design manufacturer in Israel named Tom and together they came up with not only a toxic free, 100% toxic free paper bottle, but you can compost it. And so not only does it not pollute the earth, it gets back to the earth. There's so many ways to look at it. Or if you think about we're serving X audience, is anybody underserved? So, for example, we'll go back to gaming. There are a couple of audiences, at least that I can think of off the top of my head of audiences who are not served, for example, tween girls. There's a dearth of games. I mean, they're almost all aimed at boys. They're like babysitting games or dog care game, pet care games. But they're really kind of ignored because manufacturers assume they're not gamers, but they are gamers. And then seniors gaming could be very beneficial for seniors. And we have boomers starting to are heading into the senior already in the senior area. If you understand who you can serve or who's unconsidered. And then of course, gaps are always in thinking about how different people can be served and how an idea can be amplified by getting diverse points of view, by being inclusive. If you have somebody who's living with disability on your team or if you have people, different people of color on your team or, you know, I really believe in being inclusive and having diverse points of view and getting multiple perspectives and that really, that can point out so many gaps.

That's great. You write in the book specifically that diversity, equity and inclusion is the X factor in design. Could you give us some examples of that?

Sure. If you think about, I mean, when I was working full time at ad agencies, often I'd be the only woman in the room and they'd turn to me and say, what do you think? You're a woman.

You're the spokeswoman of XXY chromosomes.

Exactly. And that just points to the fact that there aren't enough different people sitting around a table coming up with ideas. And so if you propose a gap to one audience, another audience might see it very differently. And often in companies there's a kind of group think. Everybody's coming from the same point of view or the same region or the same gender. And group think isn't, you know, that, sure, in your field is not good at all. So to get multiple perspectives, you can start to see a goal, a gap or a gain in a very new way.

You know, we used to, in a couple of. I've been involved in a number of startups, and one of the things, when we could kind of design it in at the early stages, we had a rotating individual so that they wouldn't kind of get, you know, blacklisted or anything that was like the Doubting Thomas or the. The Devil's Advocate or we had, you know, cute little names for them, cliche kinds of names where the person's total job was kind of like, I really love this in your book of how could we make this worse? Or where do you have it wrong? Or how is this dumb? You know, or whatever. You know, we were very polite with each other and stuff, but I really. I find that a very creative thing in here. It just. It just tickled me with the, how can we make it worse? I mean, there's so many daily experiences where we, you know, each of us have our war stories of bad design. I have a friend who is a designer and artist, and he works for a bank. And I thought, oh, you design, you know, their logo? Like, what, you know, what do you do? And he said, no, I design their processes. Like, you know, when they're online, is it just torture for them to, you know, deposit a check or to check a balance or to do a this or do a that? And it just. It really opened me up. And I think that's probably. Conversations with him are a good, you know, primer for, you know, learning more about you and your book and how your work gets. Gets applied. But it really, you know, it almost. It'd be fun to have a companion thing on your website or something of here, you know, people write in. Here's. Here's some examples of bad design experiences.

That's a good idea. Thank you. Sure.

I just. I just thought that was. It just so resonated with me, Robin. I thought, oh, my gosh, let me, you know, let me tell you a story. So.

Oh, yeah. I mean, and even if you think about service, like, how can we make pizza delivery worse? How can make food delivery worse? And if you think about that and you go over that, then you know what to do.

Well, yeah, yeah. Oh, point. Point well taken. So, yeah, absolutely. So you. One of the back to the nerdy mechanics of authorship and writing and book construction you love. I'm a big fan of checklists and resources and discussion guides, so maybe I want to kind of drill and bounce around in some of those. Could you discuss the eight ways that you can set a goal, what that's all about?

Sure. I think that you can think about, obviously, noticing a gap. So you move from that. You can challenge the status quo. That's a really important way to think about a goal. So what's the conventional thinking? I'll go Back to messages RNA that Dr. Kariko and Dr. Weissman had been investigating. They went up against the conventional star chamber. People really didn't think that that was a good path. And boy, oh, boy, am I glad they.

Yeah, yeah.

So challenging the status quo is always interesting. Going against prevailing conventions. For most people, I think they follow a passion. This is something. If I were thinking about my own passion, I would still want to design the perfect black dress. We do something that's our things that we're passionate about, whether in our own discipline or you move from your own discipline. What is your expertise? I think his last name is Shawarma. He also was in financial industry, and he noticed that people can't really deal with their 501ks. How do they roll it over? How do they take care of it? So it was like a really simple business that he created called Capitalize, where he helps you with your 501. So it came out of his own discipline, out of his own expertise. And sometimes we need to allow a goal to take shape. The first idea might not be it. And you keep thinking about it and look for the gap, look for the gain in it. And you have to be open to serendipity. I think, like something that you stumble across an observation, a curiosity. Velcro was based on an observation. He was walking in the woods with his dog, and he noticed that burrs were sticking to both his clothing and the dog, and he investigated. And we've got Velcro.

I love that.

It's great. And I really think you need to push past your first goal sometimes, because if you, you know, as an instructor, when you ask students something, I would say that half the class come up with the same response. It's usually the most typical response or the most conventional response. So you often want to push past that and push better or improvise. And so there's so many ways of seeing a connection. Right. Lin Manuel Miranda goes on vacation, picks up the biography of Alexander Hamilton, and he's thinking oh, it would be really interesting to write this history of the founding fathers in hip hop verse.

I love that story. I mean, I loved Hamilton. I've seen it like once live and probably five times, you know, on video, but I never knew that story. It was just like, oh, talk about creative. Like the two most non fitting together kinds of things in the world. And to do it so artistically and beautifully. Yeah, that's fantastic.

Oh, yes. And I mean that's really, that's a case for being a curious person because he had just finished in the Heights off Broadway with a very successful run. It was about to come to Broadway and he was going to take a rest and you think he'd pick up a beach read or you think he'd pick up a book about promoting musical theater and he picks up a biography of Alexander Hampton. And it's because, well, he credits his father, who's a politician, for his interest in history. But he's still interested. Right? He's a very curious mind. And if he hadn't been curious, I don't think we'd have Hamilton.

Yeah, certainly a non obvious kind of thing. Well, and speaking of kind of cool stories like that, could you share the one about Instagram's origin between combining Bourbon and photography fandom?

Oh, sure. And I'm forgetting his name at the moment.

I can't think of it either. I just remembered the bourbon.

I apologize to him. Yes, he was a fan of Bourbon and before that he was a fan of photography. So he went, when he went to study abroad in Italy, he brought his very good camera with him. And the instructor who was new to him, who he had in Italy, came often when you, when you go study abroad, you get a whole new set of instructors there said, well, you know, that's a, that's a pretty posh camera. How about, why don't you try this camera? And it was a Japanese camera that took kind of distressed images in square formats and he used it and he loved it. And so when he came back, he first started a software company and they figured out an app about location, about checking in and photography. And the imagery was either secondary or tertiary on their minds, which he called Bourbon because he loved bourbon. And then it wasn't that this enterprise that he and his partner were creating wasn't that successful, but they did notice that people were most interested in the, in sharing the images that they would take on their phones. And that's how he came to Instagram. And the reason that the imagery is square on Instagram is because of this camera, I'm forgetting the name of that he used.

Well, and their logo even I think originally sort of looked like probably like what that little Japanese camera was. It reminds me of like the old Kodak brownies or something. You know, there were just these little, little boxes.

So good. Notice

I'm a nerd. I told you so.

That's a good eye.

And it's like, you know, Reid Hoffman also talks about, you know, the, the pivot. And you know, you and I were talking off mic before we hit record about like I, you know, I, I have this nonprofit and we had to do that as well too. I don't know if it was a result of, you know, creativity. I'd like to think so from, from what now is the result. But we were an all volunteer organization, all have day jobs, et cetera. And we got to this one point where we were going to collaborate on a project with this other entity, ngo, that was going to go for a USAID grant. And it was a three year grant. And part of the requirements was to go to a very difficult place to get to on the opposite side of the world four times a year for a period of time of probably 10 days to two weeks. And, and the nature of what that research would be is observational kinds of things in a clinical setting. And I was kind of the guy that was going to be doing that because we have a diverse board and I was the psychologist. So I thought, oh my gosh, I can't go. Good news, bad news. Like if we got the grant, that's great news and I get to tell my family, hey, for the next four years, I'm not going on any vacations with you because I'm going to have to suck up all my vacation time to go to this place place and do this research. And the grant didn't get funded. So we kind of in a sad ironic way got off the hook for that. But it caused us to realize that we are not infinitely scalable with the kind of work at that point. We were doing six projects literally all over the world, South America to Asia and kind of everywhere else in between. And those weren't projects that required a lot of us. It was our partners in country. It didn't require us to be there or anything, just to provide tools and consultation and whatever, periodically being there, but not consistently being there. And our pivot was to do exactly that. And I thought about this in the context of your three GS because the ultimate fundamental part of what our center does is that it shouldn't be so hard to do good in the world. It shouldn't be so hard to get involved in humanitarian kinds of work. Can we reduce that friction? And we kind of, little tongue in cheek, refer to it as open sourcing, humanitarian intervention. And it was exactly the model, as I thought about what I do with the nonprofit. And what we did, even with this pivot, was to exactly just perfectly fit within your three GS. So it's sort of like, good. That's kind of validating. This is very good. So I want to shift gears to kind of put on my little psychology hat, because it really caught my eye, your chapter seven, in which you talk about emotional obstacles, and you even have you provide a wonderful separate resource for how to overcome those emotions, emotional obstacles. In one of your wonderful checklists, could you maybe just give an overview of what that covers and maybe a couple of examples?

Sure. Thank you. I think a lot of people don't move forward with projects or goals because one fear of failure, which is very, very common, as you know. But there are other things that. That you can deal with more easily that are less psychologically based. So, for example, if you have family members who depend on you, is there a way to get others to help you so that you can manage your time a little better or have some time? Is there a way that you can maximize your energy, make sure you get enough sleep so that you have the energy to pursue what do you want to do? And staying positive, like, really staying positive about the whole thing. Sorry about the noise. I lived in New York City.

No problem.

A fire or something going on. I'm really sorry.

No problem. No worries. Hopefully it's not your building, Robin. If it is, let us know.

It was once.

Oh, gosh. I'm very careful what I kid about.

You're walking down the street and you see broken glass and you think, oh, my goodness, there's a fire. And when you come back, you have no door.

Oh, no, we'll have to have you back on a round two and talk about that. Good Lord.

I think it's important to notice what's interfering with what you want to pursue. And I think people don't take the time to address that.

Yeah.

Or what about the situation do you find challenging that you maybe might be able to deal with? So getting a meal done in the morning and having it frozen and then you can defrost it for dinner, like just managing your time in a different way? Or is there one action that you can take that can mitigate the situation in order to move the idea of forward. So, you know, there's so many things, so many obstacles that, you know, people want our time. Some people have two jobs, they have children, they have elderly parents. There's so much.

Yeah.

I think for me, I've made writing or whatever I want to do often and non negotiable or exercise for me is a non negotiable. I do it, you know, if I headache or I have, you know, if I have the sniffles, I won't go to a gym, but I'll exercise at home. Just like brushing your teeth or taking a shower. You don't argue with yourself.

Right.

Just do it. And that's how I've managed. And not, I mean, I have my own dragons to slay. I don't say no to the extra cookie, but I do manage my time for my work. And I think, you know, you have to. Every, every person has to look at their life and see what's interfering with what they want to do.

Yeah, that's good advice. I mean it also kind of in that context of the stuff, you know, there's always going to be stuff that can get away. I like how you phrased it, you know, slaying your own dragons. There's always going to be these certain kinds of things. But if you can, as best a person can in their circumstance, structure things like you said, you know, making writing a priority is best that those kinds of things can happen. You know, can, can make all the difference. So with, with that in mind and with the, you know, book writing and a little our conversation with overlapping Venn diagram dots and spots, you're donating all the royalties from the pre orders of the Art of New ideas and strategic creativity to humanity. Humanitarian efforts in Ukraine. Do I have my facts straight on that? Is that right?

Yes.

Wonderful.

And some to humanitarian relief Puerto Rico and wherever the hurricanes hit.

Wow, good for you.

And then after, when both books are out now I donate a good part of my royalties to student scholarships.

I love that. I mean you, you, you have a, you know, I think a merit one as well as a student need one. And that's, I mean there's, it's so wonderful to see professors endowing those kinds of things. I just, I love that. So what, what, what's the itch that, that humanitarian bent, you know, scratches for you?

Well, I, you know, I, my daughter went to college. She didn't have to have a job while going to college. My students work. My students hold one job or two jobs even though we're a Public university and we're very reasonably priced. It's still a hardship for many people and it breaks my heart to see that, that people are working so hard to pay off college debt. You know, as we know, President Biden addressed that. So, you know, it comes from really trying to help and being in that room with these wonderfully talented people who could just use a little bit of an extra boost.

Yeah. Good for you. Yeah. I was first person in my family to go to college. My paternal grandparents didn't complete high school and education was always sort of an important aspect. My folks were divorced and long story for another day, but they both thought education was good even though, you know, they did not have opportunities to do college for themselves. And I was, you know, fortunate with, with Pell Grants and with scholarships and you know, just, and you know, part time jobs throughout undergrad. And you know, I've tried to do the same thing, you know, back with my undergrad alma mater to, to be able to do that and to, to do some guest lecturing and mentoring. I just, that really speaks to me, Robin. I think it is such a, and you get to see it day in, day out. I mean, you know, it's, for me it's sort of just, you know, memories and remembering what it was like a million years ago. But I really tip my hat to you to do that because it, it makes all the difference in the world of, you know, not just being able to go to school, but to get out of school and to, you know, to the bonafides to say, hey, I, you know, I've gotten this scholarship based upon my academic performance and that cascades into helping, you know, get that job and you know, just it, it pays rewards, you know, and gives, you know, interest, it compounds that interest, you know, for, for years on. So that's, that's really impressive. I hope other people in those kinds of positions can have that kind of inspiration from hearing what you've done. So I got to shift back into my writing nerdiness now if you don't mind. It's probably you're going to get a whiplash after this conversation. But you know, you and I share publishers of, of, with, with Wiley. You've, you've got a variety of other publishers that I don't have experience with. But the, one of the things that I found with Wiley was that they liked in, in my area because I'm like more psych and healthcare and medicine and whatnot. And they were just hell bent on series books and to a degree, you know, still Today still. So today. And I've had a couple of series books where that I started and a couple of series books that I got to be co author on and stuff. One of the things I want to find out about you, you've done a number of like updated editions in my research on you. Like I know some, like, you're up to the 6th edition and things like that. Can you maybe unpack for the writers, myself and the writers in the audience that how does that updated edition process work? Do you say, hey, the world has changed, we need to refresh this. Do they come to you and say, hey, this is a good sign seller? You know, we want, if it's, you know, been adopted for a course, we want to give an updated version of it or kind of could you unpack that for us? Like how do they knock on your door? Do you say, hey, Wiley, or hey, whoever, we need to update this. How does that work?

It's happened in both ways. The most recent addition with Wiley, I approached them and I said, listen, advertising is moving at the speed of light. We really need to update this book. And it, it had been, I think they don't usually approach you in a less period of three years. Three years is usually the magic number is that sales start to drop off and people buy used copies. So they have their whole profit reasoning as the author. And plus it depends on the discipline. So if it's a book about drawing, they're not going to update it. That authority unless they see sales starting to go flat or fall because people are buying used copies. But in my discipline in design and advertising, it really, tech just changes everything so quickly that you have to keep updating. There are legal issues which your listeners might find interesting and comforting that legally you have to change 25% of the book in order to get people to buy, you know, or say, hey, listen, this is a new book. And once I start writing, I would say that my books change by 45% because I'm like, oh my gosh, no, good out.

Yeah, okay.

It's like I rewrite it practically. And so for me, 25% isn't enough.

That's an easy target to hit. So gotcha.

But I really think that, you know, to be fair, gives somebody more, more new content than that.

How do you with that kind of thing? I mean, it's. Point taken. So 25% is one thing, 45% is, you know, practically twice that. Because I'm fairly good at math here, Robin. So how do you, how do you do that with simultaneous Books and teaching and consulting and lecturing. I mean, and exercising and dancing. I mean, how does, how do you parse your time to be able to, you know, have and to still produce quality? Because I know there's a lot of folks that produce, but, you know, it's the, the quality is not always consistently there. And for the familiarity that I have with you and your work, it is, you know, spot on. You don't win these awards and these accolades and publishing contracts by, you know, being mutual mediocre. So what's your, what's your productivity process like with this?

I don't cook.

Well, we share something else in common.

Pizza.

All right, there's the secret, folks.

A lot of steam. Vegetables. You know, I. My husband's not thrilled that I don't cook and I don't like his cooking. Oh, okay. Saves both of us a lot of time. It really does. And I just, I'm really. I'm actually fast at writing. Writing is good for you. I love writing and people think I'm crazy, but I write on an elliptical machine.

Oh, my God. Really? Oh, my gosh.

So I do part of my writing that's an hour a day on the elliptical. So I'm kind of doing two first, because I don't have patience for the elliptical, otherwise.

Oh, that's brilliant. Oh, my gosh.

I mean, I could read on it, but for some reason I like writing on it and my brain is like all the endorphins are flowing.

Yeah, you're very oxygenated. I'd be hypoxic actually.

But yeah, so I really. Most people at the gym or at hotel gyms look at me like I'm out of my mind.

Yes, I would imagine it's an uncommon sight there, Robin.

It is an uncommon sight, but I get a lot done that way and then I get up early and I. And again, it's non negotiation, but I love it. I don't love the part of the books and I don't know if you had to do this, but imagery. You have to get permission.

Oh, yeah.

You know that. Anybody a quote, over 100 words. You have to get permission. Any. Like, if I asked you to write an essay for my book, I'd have to get permission from you. And getting. Acquiring images and acquiring essays and acquiring contributions. That's the part I don't like. And takes a ton of time because people forget and you have to get it later. They send it back blank or you know, or getting high res enough images or getting. Graphic designers are very generous about allowing Me to use their work. Advertising agencies, you have to jump through hoops because they're their clients and.

Right.

And the photographers and the talent.

Yeah, we had a. There's a book I co wrote with and my co author just had to have this one image and we had to buy it and our publisher didn't reimburse us. You know, they're like, take it out of your royalties. And it was sort of like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So. Yeah, I know what you mean. I. One of the things too, I hated, actually I cut my teeth on this as a under or as a graduate student, was that I got hired by one of my professors to do the index for a book that he was doing. And Robin, oh my gosh, that was like the most horrible, tedious. And this is, this is. Oh my gosh, dating myself here. This is probably 1982. So I didn't have word. I don't even know if word perfect had been invented yet or whatever, but if it had, I couldn't afford it. But it was just sort of like this going through paper manual, you know, like, where did, where did this word show up? Oh, yeah, it showed up three other times. Oh my gosh. It was just torture. So I had one publisher who liked to torture me and said, hey, you know, if you want an index and you have to have an index in your book, and if you want to pay for the index, here's what it's going to cost. And if you don't want to pay for the index, then I guess you're going to do it. And I'm like, don't do this to me. So.

Oh, yeah, no, I've never done an index, nor do I ever.

It's. Yeah, yeah, just get that out of the contract. So. Well, I also think maybe one of your creative disciplines around your productivity is another theory I have. So I want to check this out. One short story at lunch. Is that also one of your superpowers to being able to be so productive with your writing? Tell us, tell the audience what that's all about.

Yes. As you know, I mostly write nonfiction. And when I was in senior year, college or graduate school, I wrote what I thought was a screenplay. And I really hadn't pursued fiction or screenwriting and always concentrated on nonfiction. And my daughter was taking a summer course at Harvard with a renowned short story writer and instructor. And so when she would call home, I'd say, what did you learn today? And she would tell me, and I kept doing that and I thought, okay, I'm going to Learn how to write a short story by getting the information from my daughter, the instructions secondhand from my daughter. And I would take a break at lunchtime over the summer. And I thought, okay, at lunch, I'm gonna try to write one short story. Wow. And that's how I learned how to do it. And then when she came home, I showed it to her and she said, no, not good.

Thanks, honey.

Remember, mom, in a short story, the character only wants one thing, and that's how you have to think about it. So I. Which was a great note.

Yeah.

She's actually a very good teacher.

Well, wonder why

I went back. And I now understand that, like an advertisement, the character has one want and there's an obstacle, and the character gets what they want and overcomes the obstacle.

That's such a. So perfectly fitting. Oh, my gosh. Oh, I love that. I just love that. So. Well, Robin, you have been very generous with your time. I know you are on. Speaking of, you know, ellipticals, you're also on a treadmill with. With publicity tours and things. And. And Robin shared with me off mic before that she lectured yesterday. And we're just very thankful that her. Her voice has held out for today and talking about the book at her university and things. So this has been just a wonderful conversation. Is there anything that I've missed that you would like to add before we wrap up?

Robin, I just think you're brilliant. Chris, I'm really in awe of this conversation and interview. How I just. Your listeners are so lucky, so fortunate to have this from you.

They're fortunate because of who my guest is. Not so much for me, but that is very kind of you to say. Thank you. I would like to believe that.

So, I mean, I knew you were, like, super before I got on, but I mean, just speaking with you, you're brilliant.

Well, hey, it takes one to know one, my friend. So thank you for being on Robin. For listeners that want to know more about your work or get your books or take your classes or follow you or whatnot, what are some of the best ways to do so? And we'll put this all in the show notes.

Thank you. They can find me@robinlanda.com. that's my website. And as you said, I'm all over social media.

You are, sister.

I'm not on Bereal yet. I don't know if you are, but I'm pretty much everywhere else. LinkedIn is my favorite, and they can connect with me there on my website. There's free downloads, so that's fun.

Great. Awesome. Yeah. And I have, I have. I've used that. I'm a. I'm a customer too, so that's. That's awesome. Awesome. So. Well, again, Robin, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time today. I look forward to the next books and all the different kinds of things that you're involved with. You are a treasure to so many people, your students and the world with the work that you do and your humanitarian efforts. And it's been a thrill to be able to spend this time with you.

Oh, it's an honor to be with you, Chris. Thank you so much.

Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knott, LLC. Assistant Producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien Executive Producer and Host, Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website elifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see Living a Life in podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks. And until next time,