The Ever Erudite Michael F. Schein on Secret Societies (and Why You Should Start One)

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I am honored. Thank you. I'm really pleased to be back.

So I have been so looking forward to catching up. We talked about this off mic before in discussing secret societies, but perhaps maybe as a lead in for this in context, could you first tell us a little bit about The Hype Handbooks 12 Indispensable Secrets. Maybe a highlight.

Yeah sure. And they are connected. So I had a very twisty turny path to doing what I do. I never wanted to own a business and we may have touched on this in the last episode the last time I was here but I was kind of an Artsy kid. I, you know, wrote fiction and then I played in bands. And I had this one band in New York that while we certainly didn't capital S succeed, AKA make our living at it, we used to sell out clubs a bunch and this and that. And what we would always say is, we're going to hype up this show. So we would do all kinds of crazy antics. I used to dress as a nun and walk around and, you know, we talked ourselves onto Showtime at the Apollo because we knew we would be booed off, you know, and things like that.

I love it.

Yeah. So, I mean, fast forward, you know, I did fall into business. I worked for a company, did relatively well there. And then I left for various reasons. And I was going to become, or did become a freelance copywriter. And it turned out I was really bad, ironically, at marketing because I had become an adult and I was trying to capital M market and do search engine optimization and funnels, and none of it was working. And I almost threw in the towel. But then I. For various reasons, I remembered what I used to do that I was really good at marketing. But I didn't think of it as marketing. I thought of it as hype. And I was always a big admirer of these punk managers like Malcolm McLaren and just various showmen and even propaganda artists. Wasn't a fan of theirs, but always fascinated. So I said, what if I could sort of borrow from these really unconventional people and create a system and apply what they do ethically, if that's at all possible. And it turned out it was. It's all based on mass psychology. And I became a pretty successful business person, first as a copywriter, and then I started an agency. So I kind of wrote a book that. The Hype Handbook that really revealed all of my secrets. And one of them, the second chapter is called Build a Secret Society, which is kind of a nice segue, but that was. That's where it came from. And it was kind of an excuse to, in addition to talking about my story, really delve into all these colorful, interesting characters and do all that research, which was almost as fun as writing the book, if not more so.

I can imagine. So it almost seems a little paradoxical, publicly discussing secret groups. But by definition, how. How would a secret society get hyped? Or wouldn't the hype make it no longer a secret society?

Yeah, that is the paradox. I should say that when I wrote the chapter Build a Secret Society, I was being tongue in cheek. I didn't really mean actual secret societies at that Point. So I gave every chapter a very colorful title. Some were give the babies their milk before you give them their meat. One was make war, not love. And this one was create a secret society. And the idea there is that what I noticed in most of these hype artists, as I called them, whether it's Richard Branson, Ryan Holiday, or Amy Semple McPherson, who was the first, you know, like radio evangelist, right. What they all did is make it seem like their success is completely grassroots, but always spent a lot of time creating a circle of string pullers around themselves behind the scenes who could accelerate their success. So that's what I meant. But I'm always doing experiments, both for promoting our business, promoting our clients, because that's what we do to make a living, and for my next project. And most of the experiments fail. And for anyone listening, if you're doing experiments and your experiments aren't failing, you're not doing bold experiments, right? So they're all based on math, psychology, but you never know what specific is going to work. And you just have to do things very quickly and on a small scale and get in and out. So I thought to myself, you know, I use the term secret society for a reason. I'm kind of fascinated with that idea, but didn't know a lot about it. So I started researching and I started with the Freemasons. And there's this rich, crazy history there that most people don't know. And I went on to other ones and I said, what if I did a little bet, a little gambit, a little experiment where I tried to see if there was interest in a secret society for us, for me, because I know this idea of building a circle of string pullers, maybe that would hypercharge the things. One of the things I learned about the Freemasons is that at the core, it was a really, really successful networking group, right? And so I created this email. So I have this email list that's large and a small, small section of the people are people you've heard of, mainly because it's a big list and because my book was published by a major publisher. So most people are just people. People signed up. But there are some people who are real, real leaders in their field, even some public names. And they just signed up to hear the stuff I send out. So I kind of built a really small. That little, small list and I sent this email out. But instead of just sending an email, would you like to join a mastermind group, blah, blah, blah, that everyone does? I gave it a lot of flash and Panache. I called it the Ludic Circle, which is in Latin. You know, a lot of the pageantry, the magic circle. I wrote in this very sort of exalted tone about how it's, you know, you've been hand selected and, you know, whatever, and with a lot of ritual. And I got a response. People wanted to do it. And you could tell by the responses that they thought it was fun. Right? So we did an initial meeting and we have ritual and we have all kinds of stuff. And I take it very seriously. I don't tell anyone, but who's in the group of who gets in. I don't just invite people that I like. Like, for example, I'm a fan of you. Maybe one day you'll get invited. But it's not like that. I mean, there are some of my best friends who aren't in this thing. It's a very selected group as to who will fit together, you know. And yeah, it's funny because it's relatively new and I could see it going in a lot of directions, but already business has gotten done. People have sort of bonded in a way that I don't see them bonding at a mastermind group and. And have hooked each other up. So it's been neat. It's been. It's really opened my eyes to some of the phenomena that drive these things.

That is really great. I don't want to be, you know, you stop me if I get too pry with some of this stuff. But, you know, you like in that context, like, what's. How is it different? What's the early results in terms of what's different from being in the Ludic Circle versus being in a mastermind group? For example,

I hear a lot of people talk about networking and they say stuff that is frankly, BS, but I think they're BSing themselves as much as anyone else because I used to say this stuff and I believed it. So they'll say things like, you know, I do favors and introductions for people purely out of the goodness of my heart. Right. Well, no, you don't. Right. I mean, obvious, you know, you might do a little of that, but you're not going around making multiple business introductions and taking all these meetings out of the pure goodness of your heart. There's a commercial imperative because you believe that there's a dynamic that if you help other people, ultimately people will help you, and it might be karma, whatever. I don't believe that. But people do. And the same is true for mastermind groups. You know, people say, oh, I'm Joining these mastermind groups or going to these networking events because it's a great way to meet great people. Not really. I mean, if you're going to the Sheet Metal association mastermind group, where you sit in a boardroom or now on Zoom and you walk around asking what kind of leads you need and this and this, and talking about your business goals, can you honestly tell me that if you didn't have a business or work in a business and it was between that or spending time with your kids or whatever else, maybe you don't like your kids, but playing in your cover band or whatever you do, that's what you would do. Zero percent chance, right? I mean, it's work. The thing is, there was a time in this country's history it went up and down. So like between the wars is a good example. Around the time of the Revolutionary War was a good example. It's come up and down where a lot of people were in these groups. So the elite people were in the Freemasons, but people were in the Shriners, even the Elks Club, these kind of things. And that was their social life. They didn't do it for business. They did it because there was a sense of pageantry and fun and intrigue, that it was cool for its own sake. It was sort of a drinking club, but with all of this pageantry, so you felt like you were part of something bigger. As a result, though, a Freemason will do anything for a Freemason and you have to pay dues to get in. You have to be hand picked. So these are high quality, quote unquote people in regards to professional, you know, activity. And so these people hooked each other up. And the reason we know that is because all of that stuff about the Illuminati and the Freemasons and all this controlling society, none of that's true. But part of what that comes from is the fact that these people are very powerful. And a lot of their power, it's like a virtuous cycle. They're selected because they're go getters, but they become more successful at what they do because they're part of this group. But they're there because they want to be there, not because they think they should. Right to that lead Their, their leadership

and let's say involved in government or business or whatever was really kind of what came first. And then they were looking maybe for outside of business, outside of politics, kind of tribe stuff, of more diverse people perhaps came first.

But also I think a lot of times, and I think that The Freemasons in particular have traditionally done this very well. They also select up and comers. Right. They pick you based on your character. And honestly, we can talk about character today, but people don't. This is, I think, a problem in the age we're living in. I don't mean to sound like an old man, but character and honor are not things we care very much about now. Right. So I was listening to this Kanye west idiocy that's going on, and someone wrote something on Facebook about maybe this is part of his strategy. You know, he's trying to build a following among the outsiders to help, blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking to myself, there was an era where even if something could make you money, which this won't, but even if you thought that was a strategy, there would be no honor in it. You know, there would be no character. So what the Freemasons say is they pick you based on character, but they look at what's your potential. It's kind of like when you're. When. When a woman is looking for who to date in their twenties. Right. People will say men are largely hooked in by looks, and women are hooked in by other things, but they're not. What's attractive to a woman in their 20s is someone who could become really accomplished, someone with a good work ethic, someone with passions. Right. Because those are indicators subconsciously, of future security and success. And again, these are all bell curve things. That's not for everybody. But I think that some of these secret societies do a really good job at picking people who have a potential. And as a result, you have this great mix of people who really bolster each other in a lot of ways. The old learn from the young, and the young benefit from the old.

Yeah. It's interesting to your point about, like, honor and virtue. Those are very difficult things to post on Instagram, you know, so.

Right, exactly.

Yeah. So I could see why people don't necessarily. I mean, they're difficult kinds of things to see. And, you know, nevertheless, you see these, you know, 50 over 50s and 30 under 30s and those kinds of things. Maybe that kind of speaks to that point too, of, like, you got. You got maybe a good founder if you're in the younger side of it, you got a good foundation. You got some years ahead of you. And you, you know, we. We sort of, you know, see this potential there as well, too, so. But again, that's not. Certainly not a club or a secret society. It's just sort of a. An honorific kind of thing.

So, no, but, but. But one thing it is, is it's. There's only so many spots. I mean, I think if it was.

Yeah,

yeah. Or like infinite, under 30, as many as we can fit in the book, you know, that wouldn't do quite as well. Right. So it is kind of like an elite club in its own way. Not so much secret, but.

Yeah, that's good. Well, you know, and I also think about, speaking of social media kinds of stuff, you know, like, it seems like. And maybe it's just because I've kind of not paid much attention to it, but it seemed like clubhouse was like a big thing, you know, and it, you know, you had to. The only way you could get in is if someone else was already in and they invited you in, or, I forget, one or two people or whatever. And, you know, and I got in and I was like, ooh, this is cool. And, you know, you. You know, I saw a lot of people were like, I forget it was Twitter or LinkedIn or something. People were putting their clubhouse handles on there to show, you know, they had gotten into the club, literally. And then it just sort of seemed, the few times that I hopped on it, it was just sort of like listening to, you know, simultaneous talk radio. You know, everybody was kind of talking over each other and it was just kind of a bit of a mess. And, you know, just sort of the randomness of it, of not really knowing, you know, who's going to be talking about what with whom, and, you know, is it going to be some goofball chiming in just as much, you know, with just as much weight and valence as whoever the keynote was. So what do you think about things like that? Or even, like, I remember in the day Facebook, you had to have like a dot edu suffix, you know, to your email, otherwise you. You couldn't get in because it was really, you know, for students, people, people in university. So what about those? What are your thoughts about that vis a vis hype and. And society, secret societies.

I think you really hit the nail on the head with where clubhouse went wrong. You know, they did a good job of spreading very, very quickly with that approach, with that, you know, you need to. You need to be invited by someone. It's exclusive. I think that the curse and the blessing of digital and especially social media is that it moves so quickly that. And it's so public that it becomes very clear very quickly that it's not as elite as it seems like. I was also invited, you know, and everyone I know who wanted to get in. Got in. You know what I mean? Like, Right.

There was no one left outside.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think more tellingly, though, is that the experience itself was bad. Right. I mean, everyone was starting these clubhouse rooms. I had the same experience as you. I got on there, and everyone was saying it was the future and this. And I was listening to things, and I was like, this is. I don't even understand why I'm here. Like, this is a very. Or experience. I think what some of these groups have done. Well, and I keep bringing up the Freemasons because they were in many ways the first, you know, but just all of these kind of successful elite underground groups. Like, there's one, you know, we happen to know what goes on in the Freemasons, because as secret as they are, it's been leaked a million times, but it's a real experience. So, like, it always has a checkerboard floor. When you're inducted, you have to wear a special apron. You have to get blindfolded. You have to say these weird words about, I'll cut my tongue out of my face and, you know, slice my throat if I ever reveal these secrets. I mean, these are grown men, you know, and there's an altar and handshake and there's an element of play and playful you just aren't even allowed to indulge in. And at the height, the people who join George Washington was a Freemason, I mean, these were very serious, serious people. Right. The experience is cool and mystical and fun. And the secrets that they're protecting, we know what the secrets are. They're nothing. It's like goodwill toward men, you know? I mean, it's been leaked. The Inquisition got it out of people, and we know what it is. Right. And the point of the secrecy is the secrecy. That's what makes it fun. It's the ritual. It's the experience. The secrets themselves are just meaningless. It's kind of like a Mormon temple. They'll build a Mormon temple, and only members of the LDS Church are allowed in once it's consecrated. And so they build this thing, and before they consecrate, people will come from 10 states around to see what's in this thing, and then they consecrate it, and only Mormons are allowed in. But I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any mystical transformation of the physical space, you know, in there. Right, right. It's just. It's. It's a build.

Yeah, yeah. As soon as there's a no trespassing Then. Then it becomes an area that you want to go to.

Yeah. Or like. Or speakeasies. Right. You know that the idea. People have recreated the speakeasy. There's this bar in New York called Please Don't Tell that Now the secret's gotten out. But I was sort of in the scene when I was in my 20s, and there's a sandwich shop and a dumpy sandwich shop and there's a phone booth in there. And this was a time where people still use phone booths a little bit. And I had been in this sandwich shop a million times. And then at a certain point, my friend said, do you know what goes on here? I'm like, what? He goes, come with me. And we go into the phone booth together. I'm like, what are we doing? He picks up the phone, someone answers, a door opens up, and there's a beautiful, elite, brown paneled cocktail lounge with only room for five people.

Oh, that's great. That is great.

But now everyone knows about it. So you have to like. Half the time you'll go into the booth. You have to like book it a month in advance. But. But I was like a hipster on the scene, so like my friends. This was 20 years ago.

Yeah, you were early.

And it's very cool.

That's very cool.

Well, I mean, just because I live. I lived in that area and I went to those places all the time.

Yeah. And that's kind of part of it. I mean, you're kind of already, you know, this was. You weren't per se, an outsider. Outsider. You know, you're kind of an outsider. Insider. You're already kind of this. This is this guy in the neighborhood and blah, blah, blah. It feels like, you know, I don't know if this is a, you know, stuff gets out and sometimes it spoils and sometimes it. Maybe it doesn't. But, you know, it seems like Burning man has sort of become this way. I mean, back in the day, you know, that was like this, you know, artists. And it was a pain in the ass to get. It still is a pain in the ass to get to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But now it's sort of like I saw something like you could spend. Oh, it was ridiculous, Michael. It was something like if you paid like $25,000 or something like just an enormous crazy amount like you and three or five or, I don't know, whatever, maybe your best pals could like get an RV that would be on the out outskirts and you could get bicycles to be able to ride in and you could get your tickets and you could get, you know, this isn't that. And be able to take a hot shower at the end of the day and all this. And you know, I mean that sort of to me just sort of makes like going to Burning man become just a cliche. You know, it's something like, you know, on an episode of a spoofy comedy show or something. So is there an arc to that too? These kinds of things that Burning man sadly is now maybe becoming, you know, a emblematica.

Oh yeah. I think it became that a long time ago. It was started by a bunch of really extreme artists called. What were they called? The International Cacophony Society or something like that. But now, I mean, yeah, it's Silicon Valley's favorite playground. Yeah, I think I would say in 99% of the cases that's the arc. And it's not just secret society, it's elite scenes of every kind. Right. Which like, you know, so I thought I was such a big shot for being into underground music. Like I was the only. Me and my friends were the only people who knew these crazy bands. And it turned out there were a whole lot of people like me. And now I remember walking past a fashion window and you know, it was all those punk patches that people used to sew on their clothings with the punk logos, but instead of the punk logos in the same style was like Louis Vuitton and Gucci and all of this. So it's become, it always happens, right? Or like tie dye T shirts and peace signs sold at every dumpy, you know, every mass marketed shop. I would say that in fact that's a good thing to study if you're trying to do something with mass market appeal. Go to fringes and then co opt it, you know, I mean, I'm not saying that that's fun or cool, but it's a good way to. It's a good way to sell something to a mass market. That being said, there's 1% of the group that does a really good job of staying elite. Like there's this group at University of Virginia that called the seven. And only seven people are in it at any time. And they only let people know that you were in it when you die and they come to your funeral with a thing of flowers in the shape of a seven and blow some horn or something like you're never going to make money out of a group like that. But I guarantee you those seven people are very well connected people and they will accelerate your life and Your career. So it's a function of what's your goal. Yeah, but the latter is a lot harder to achieve than the former. A lot harder.

So how does one. Like, I just. This is probably top of mind, but I've been watching the thing on HBO about Nexium and the Vow and all those related kinds of things. How does someone know, like, is there also an arc or a tipping point? Like, from when something's, like, just an outright scam or a cult versus something that's legit and, like, the seven?

I mean, I'll tell you what I try to think about, and I'm a very skeptical person by nature, to a fault, which is maybe why I'm able to clinically dissect some of this stuff. But I feel like the main difference is, is the core thing, are you buying the charisma of the founder and that sort of thing, or are you ultimately attracted to the charisma and the energy, not just the founder, but are you attracted to the sort of excitement, the vibe, the charisma, the group psychology? Or are you actually. Is there something of substance underneath that they're using that stuff to promote? So I'll give you an example. So Tai Lopez, who is probably quite rich, but he's one of these Internet gurus. And I think I'm not alone in saying that his. He veers more towards scam, you know, I would say, and I feel comfortable saying that because he. If you go and look at the reviews of his product, people feel cheated. You know, he gets people really hopped up. He has this very famous ad. I'm here in my garage, and he has his Lamborghinis. And then he pans over, he shows his bookshelf. But the problem is, like, all of that stuff was rented. You know, he admitted it later. So, you know. But his actual products are meaningless. Like, he has a thing, 67 steps. And once you buy it and you sort through all the stuff, it's basically like 67, like, basic stuff that he got from everywhere else that you could get for a buck 50, you know, from the library, or even worse, he has a course, or had one until recently, on crypto. As if he's this big crypto expert. But the only thing that makes him a crypto expert is because crypto became popular. He's no crypto expert. Right. So, like, I would even say be careful of things like Amway, because, you know, Procter and Gamble products, people love the products. Right? I mean, people, you know, for better or worse, they think Tide is the Best thing that they can buy to do their laundry. Whereas how many people do you really know who can name an Amway product outside of Michigan that's a good lit. Yeah, it's like Nutrafleen or something like that. I don't know. Like these things, what they're selling is the sale, the sales they're selling that you go to a rally and get jacked up and get bombarded with lights and sound and you're going to be a millionaire. And this is a company that's so successful that they have an arena with their name on it. So that bothers me. Like the fact that their products are almost secondary.

Yeah.

So that's my litmus test is, is, is that, you know, I go to Virgin, I used to go to Virgin Megastore, and it's no longer a relevant store, but when it was at its height, it was a fantastic store. You know, the most selection, the best experience. You would go on Virgin Atlantic, and it's the best flying experience there is. So it doesn't bother me that Richard Branson is really good at getting people emotional and bought into his, his, his cult, because what he sells is fantastic.

That's good. So I really like that the, you know, the, the, the hype becomes almost the product. Like with your Amway example.

Right.

So in speaking of like, the, I'm not familiar with the guy that you were talking about. That's the scammy guy that just repackages stuff and sells it at a big markup. But, you know, the, you and I had communicated before this, like talking about the issue of hype. And like now one of the buzzy things is, is NFTs and Web3 crypto and stuff. And I've been listening to, trying to get my head around this stuff. Like, Kevin Rose has got a podcast called Proof, and there's, you know, books and articles and blah, blah, blah. And then there's also a lot of journalists covering the, these like crazy rises and then these even crazier flame outs. So like I, I, I know like 2%, maybe not maybe half of that, like, of like the board monkey, Yacht club kinds of stuff. And the, you know, everybody says, well, the way to learn about something is to kind of get a little, not necessarily skin in the game, although I did that in a very microscopic kind of way. But I got very, very superficially involved with. There's a group called Friends with Benefits, which is great, great branding, by the way.

It's a great title.

Yeah, they're great.

Yeah.

And it's Basically it was like a social, social club, but kind of, you know, decentralized and as they call it, there's this term, there's like a whole nother vocabulary too, which is maybe part of the, you know, the secret societies, the decentralized autonomous organization, or a dao. A dao. And that they basically wanted to have like this community of folks that kind of sprung up around Covid, you know, around 2020. So.

Yeah.

And then, you know, I'm not sure, but I think like, maybe they, that begat discord. So then of course I, you know, got into Discord and I get totally lost when I'm in there. And then like now they're starting to do stuff, you know, in real life. So that, you know, and it's a, it's a heterogeneous group like you were talking about originally with like the Freemasons. I mean, it's like the artists and musicians, you know, the cool kids. But then it's also like the, the nerdy kids, the crypto nerds. And then it's also like the rich kids, the VCs, and they have, you know, they throw great parties and they've got their own yerba mate beverage. You know, I mean, it's sort of like, here we go. So.

Sounds fun. I'm going to check it out.

Yeah, yeah. So how. With that concept or with these kinds of things, the, the, the, the FOMO and the everything else around this stuff, I mean, it gets pretty darn serious, you know, because you also say, I've read a lot of stuff in the Wall Street Journal about these poor guys who would, you know, take their parents and, you know, life savings or they would take a loan, God forbid, and they'd go buy more crypto. And then, you know, some, something would happen. And then all of it, you know, it got devaluated by 98% like overnight. So, you know, what's this crossroads? What's the roadmap of this crossroads look like from your perspective with this very tech centric kind of thing, vis a vis hype?

Yeah. So I think this is really worth talking about. And at the same time, I think this is different than what I mean by a secret society. Right. So if a client came to us and said, we sell a service that's $100,000 lifetime value of a customer versus selling pizza, right. I would say to them, it's really important for you to align yourself with prominent people in that niche who will advocate your stuff to everyone they know. So one of the great ways to do that is to create some sort of what I'm calling a secret society group of people who are so engaged by each other. And I don't mean for pay. I mean, you know, because you've created that dynamic that they'll tell everyone they know about what they do. Right. So that's, that's over here. I think that I've been looking at the phenomenon of this crypto thing, and it's easier for me to say this now that there's been a crash, but I was going around telling people that I feel really dicey about this vibe. It felt a lot like tulips in the Netherlands. And I'll tell you what I observed and I want to hear what you say because the story hasn't played out yet. And I'm no fortune teller. Right. And I'm also not a finance expert, so I might be missing something. But the first thing is I don't understand it. And I'm not an idiot, you know, I mean, I'm not a finance expert, but I've been to multiple fintech conferences that focused on blockchain and people get so excited and they're talking about distributed ledger and this, and I have no idea what they're talking about. And again, I've done some complicated things in my life and I feel like it's a lot of Emperor's new clothing, right?

Yeah.

And they're saying it's going to transform society like the Internet did. But I always understood the Internet. The Internet is like an infinite library. It's a network where you can find anything you can communicate over phone lines at the time. This is like this weird thing that trucks will drive themselves based on contracts that don't need lawyers and. Right. So that's the first thing. The second thing is I listened to this podcast called How I Built this, which is popular. It's Guy Rysdal. It's about. The guy does like these NPR style podcasts about really successful startups. And almost every startup I've heard, it was an amazing story. So they had Roblox on there. And you just hear how these people created this extremely valuable, amazing company and how hard it was and how they did it. Merge records, all these great companies, and then they had the board monkey guys. And this was before the crash, you know, And I was expecting this great story because it was how we built this. And they were these literature guys and they got interested in NFTs. And I listened for half hour, 40 minutes and I'm like, what do these people sell? Like, I kept Waiting for the punchline, I was like, what is this thing? And they're billion billionaires, not millionaires, billionaires. And I'm like, what do they sell? I haven't found out yet. It's like an invisible thing that's kind of funny that people buy shares in. So help me understand it, because I could be missing it. But to me this is a high tech example of you're buying the hype. But I could be missing it. Like, what am I missing? But I'm too dumb. Either I'm too dumb or we're all being snowed.

Well, I will provide you with very little insight there. So, you know, I understood I had a guest a long time ago that talked about blockchain, but it was basically as a security measure. I mean, we were talking about it in the context of like healthcare and securing health records and stuff like that. I mean, it was kind of the nerdy. It was almost more of like a cybersecurity kind of thing as opposed to, you know, anything else. It was just a mechanism, it was a tool.

Right.

But then, you know, the only thing. And I'm going to get quickly out of my depth, the only thing that I kind of understood, or I think I kind of understand is more so with the NFTs and like I met a guy earlier this year who's kind of a mover and shaker and he was very interested in crypto and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I quickly, you know, got dizzy as he, as he tried to explain it to me with the big crayons. And he's.

You're a doctor, I mean, you're not, you know. Yeah, I mean, you know. Yeah, you took organic chemistry and passed.

Yeah. So there were no NFTs involved or DAOs, but.

Right.

His thing and the little teeny bit 101 or 001 was that he felt he wanted to present to the world that he was in the club and that the way that he could present that he was in the club and not a poser was that he purchased like a, you know, an eight bit or six bit or, you know, teeny weird pix image of. I probably shouldn't say what it is to identify him, but he got this eight bit image, which is not unlike a lot of other people, of a certain weird colored, weird animal. And he uses that as his like headshot for his Twitter account. And he kind of. And Twitter is his primary social media platform that he uses to communicate and whatnot. So he felt that for credibility when he talked about Crypto or Bitcoin or NFTs or DAOs or whatever that if you just have your, you know, your old headshot from, you know, two years ago up there, people aren't going to take you seriously. But if they see that, oh, Joe Blow is in the club because Joe has purchased this, you know, weird little tokeny eight bit image, then that added, you know, to his like, you know, the wink and the nod. He knew the secret handshake, you know, he knew the secret knock on the door to be able to get into that club, so to speak. So, so that was that part.

Now the other part that I guess.

Yeah. And the other part with NFTs, I've heard like a lot of if you, and again, quickly, I don't know exactly how this works, but if you purchase a Louis Vuitton NFT or if you purchase a pick your favorite rock band that's still touring NFT, that then, you know, and there's, you know, 1,000 bucks. I mean, it's not like, you know, a buck fifty or something. You, you, you, you've got some currency and skin in the game with that. And then, then what that does, you're now, you know, quote unquote member. You can now publicize to the world with whatever your little token looks like. And that you get like early announcement to a concert tour or you get premium.

Well, that's, that's valuable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's about the only thing that would ever make me like, you know, want to do that. And then again that then, then it becomes supply and demand. It's like scalping a ticket. You know, it's like if I have a ticket to the football game and I don't want to go or I can't go, or I want to make money off that, I'd rather have the money than go to the game, then I can scalp it and you know, sell it to somebody else. So if someone else wants to have my Louis Vuitton NFT because they're really super Louis Vuitton interested, then I can sell it to them. There's no secret I didn't have to meet any qualifications other than a checkbook to be able, or maybe early in early adopter to be able to get in on that. So those are the only kinds of things that I've seen that kind of in my ancient old brain that kind of makes sense in the sense of that there's a value, that I can get a benefit from it, that I can social signal with it and that I can Potentially, you know, sell it to somebody else who might want it more than I do, or once I'm

done with it, I mean, look, the pieces that you're saying that do make potential sense to me. I just read this interesting relatively new book called Status and Culture. It's by this guy, W. David Marks. And what he talks about is how the stuff that we use to signify status, which we all do, and it's not always the same kind of status. For some people it's really about showing that you're rich. But for some people, it's showing that you're in the know or that you're, you know, whatever. So people, they're all arbitrary. So like, if you buy a $10,000 watch, right, they have to give a bunch of nonsense about. It's not nonsense, it's real. But they have to say, talk about the craftsmanship. They have to let people feel that they're not buying the signify status. But honestly, I have a $500 Swiss army watch, which isn't a Timex, but it's not a $10,000 watch. And it's as good as any of those watches. I've had it for a decade and it runs great. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So the real reason, and most of us don't use watches to tell time, we use our phones, right? So the main reason that people wear a $10,000 watch is to signify status even if they don't know it, right? So there's that. We live in the digital world, so maybe people are using it for that also. You know, my daughter, I have a 12 year old and her and her cousins, they want Roblox Robux more than anything because they can buy stuff in Roblox. And my sister is like, really opposed to it because she's like, it's not real, it's like garbage. But to them it is real. They use it to do something they want to do, which is to play the game at a higher level. I guess the one fear I have is that when something is only a status symbol, what happens when the status changes? So like tulips were a status symbol, famously in Holland, you know, and they're pretty. Tulips are pretty. And at the time they were exotic. I mean, now they aren't. But they were from, I don't know, the east somewhere. But it became what you were talking about, it was trading tulips. So at a certain point, a tulip bulb was worth $50,000, whatever the equivalent. And then one day no one wanted tulips anymore. So everyone went broke, you know, So I guess, I guess that's the part I struggle with is that like, yeah, you get tickets, okay, but why not just buy the tickets, right? You know, So I guess we'll see. Yeah, we should all. We should all be studying how they've made this happen. I don't think the thing worth that much, but we should all be studying how they, how they, how they made $1 billion off of air and smoke. Imagine if you have a really good product, what you could do.

Yeah, no kidding. Well, and okay, so this is a good. This. Tease us up for another little section I want to pick your brain about. So, you know, can you talk about some of the instances like when a club membership isn't cool anymore or to be associated with. And I'll tee you up for this because like back in the day I got invited, I think by accident to get to go to the TED Conferences when Richard Saul Wurman was doing them back in the 90s and they were only in Monterey and they weren't all. There was no such thing as a TEDx and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was much more niche. It was limited to like whatever the auditorium could hold it, you know, wasn't simultaneous. You know, he didn't record them. You couldn't see them on a website, you know, two days later like that. And there's a guy who you probably know or know of at least the literary agent John Brockman. And he would have these things called the Billionaires Dinner back in the 90s. So when a billion was really a billion, Michael.

Right.

And that.

Oh, it's still a billion.

Yeah. So he, he had these, these billionaire dinners and blah, blah, blah. And one dinner, one. And I think it was the New York Times reported that that dinner was one of Jeffrey Epstein's favorite events and that oftentimes Epstein would like fly out a bunch of Tedsters to Monterey and his Boeing and they would all go, you know, go have dinner to go to this thing together. And since Epstein's name became mud, they actually, this guy Brockman has a foundation, Edge Foundation's website, and he's been sanitized off that where he used to be. You know, you can go in the Wayback Machine and see him there. And abracadabra, today, he, he's gone. And so talk about that. What happens when you're in, in the, the bad boy club or something or, or you're. Or you have a bad boy that's gotten into the club. You know what's What's. How do people deal with that? With, you know, do they. They shun them like the Amish or, you know, what happens?

Yeah, I mean, I think. Yeah. I mean, there's bad boys, so that, that's just, like, hard. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein is a notoriously disgusting human being who anyone associated with him happened to go into the toilet with him. And we're seeing that with Kanye west right now. Right. So that's just kind of bad luck. Right. But I think the first example that you gave was even more interesting because it's more subtle and that's ted, because TED was very, very elite. And on one hand, broadening to TEDx and all of that made Chris Anderson a gajillionaire and it changed the world. I mean, it gave access to ideas that people would have never had access to. But it's also a mass market product now.

Yeah.

So when I. When someone tells me they have a TED Talk now, I almost immediately assume it's TEDx, you know, and that. And those are very easy to get. Right. Yeah.

Yep.

So. And what that reminds me of is, you remember, I wasn't around for this. I was a little kid. But in the 80s, or maybe it was the 90s, actually, Spago was the biggest restaurant in California. Right. And it was run by Wolfgang Puck. And he was just this elite, amazing gourmet chef, and he planned the menus himself, and he was there every night. And now what do you think of when you think of his Wolfgang Puck? I think of soggy airplane sandwiches. Airport sandwiches. Right.

Say I. I would have to go to the airport. That's what I picture going to the airport to get.

And they're terrible, they're soggy, they're gross. So I mean, he made a calculation that mass market was the way he wanted to go. Now, that isn't a bad calculation. It's a function of what your goals are. Right. So again, if you're selling, if your business strategy is to sell 20 million units, you start elite and go mass market and you ride that thing.

Yeah.

Until it stops being cool. And there's a predictable cycle. It start. It was like Sex in the City. She said it starts with the, you know, when she was trying to get the guy to be popular, she said it starts with, you know, it starts with artists and gay people, then it moves down to the teenage girls, then it moves to middle America, you know what I mean? And then it dies.

Yeah.

Right. So I think, you know, there are people who've made billions off of riding that Cycle, you know, I mean, and you ride it all the way down to middle America and then you find the next trend. So that's, that's the Wolfgang Puck TEDx strategy. And I think that's legitimate. I think the other strategy, and I'm not trying to say that's worse, I mean, that's probably your best bet if you're able to swing it. I think the other thing, though is having an elite group of people who, no matter what your venture is, will have your back. So, like maybe Chris Anderson has a group of 10 gazillionaires who have a salon that no one knows about, you know, and it has a name and they do it in a secret lair in a mountain, which they can probably afford. And if someone, hey, I need to be on NBC, let me call the head of NBC. And that'll happen for him because he goes to this special 10 person salon. There are two, there are two strategies that can exist in tandem. Now. Most of us can't build a, can't get a thing of gazillionaires, but you can create the kind of prestige and secrecy and fun that will attract people to become part of your group. And that's doable, you know, I mean, you can go on social media and find people and connect with them around common interests that aren't around business. I met the Rolling Stones original manager and we became friends because I quoted him back to himself on Twitter. And I'm not, you know, I never managed the rolling. I mean, I'm not to that level. Right. The other thing you can do is just create that sense of playfulness and exclusivity. I mean, people have done that for Time In Memoriam. And there are ways to do that. We do it for clients a lot because it's really useful, you know, not necessarily a formal secret society that we create those sorts of like, you know, strong bonds that end up exploding into visibility. So. Yeah, but, but it's two different strategies, you know, and I think you need to know which one you fall on.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. It's an interesting phenomenon to kind of see those kinds of things of just the, the arc of a product or the arc of an idea or the arc of an experience. So I know you've got a hard stop. I've got a couple other questions if you're still a little sure for time. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good. So, you know, I'm also a vocal and big fan of your newsletter. Could you tell the audience a little bit about what it's about and what spurred you to create it?

Well, yeah, sure. I have to say I sort of stole the idea from Ryan Holiday, but I took it to a new place. So. Ryan Holiday, I once read a thing by him where he talks about how he loves to read and sometimes, you know, his whole job is an excuse to be able to read. And I'm sort of similar. Like I hear all these. I'm a writer. Before anything, I was always a writer. That's the one constant in my life. And I think people who like to write are generally big readers. Right? I mean, I think that's, you know, it's like a music musician who doesn't like music, you know. So I guess I see all these people, it's become like hip now in the business world. Not hip, but like it's this thing like everyone talks about all the books they read, but they have these things like, you know, oh, I'm reading and I'm trying to motivate myself to read. And I'm always like, I should read less. Like, I'd rather read than do work. You know what I mean? So I basically. A lot of the stuff I write, like the Hype Handbook, what I did was I really researched through reading a lot of really unusual sources because I see a lot of the books that people read and get their ideas from are really common. You know, I mean, these are good books and I've read them all. But like seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Atomic Habits, these things. If everyone is reading the same books as you, you're not going to connect the dots in interesting ways. So what I would do, even before I wrote the haipam book, I would read like a biography of like a cult leader, or I would read a weird mass psychology book or like a book on propaganda. And these books were so interesting to me and no one else knew about them in this world. I started summarizing the best ones and sending them friends and stuff. But it grew. It became a big mail, a pretty big email list. And it's probably one of those popular things I do. I mean, people really respond to it. Like Ryan Holiday, just basically his newsletter is great, I love it, but it's just whatever he's reading, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Whereas I hyper focus. I call it the Hype Book List. It's all books that are counterintuitive, contrarian books about how you can generate this kind of mass emotion and excitement about promote your stuff. What is it that you like about it? I'm just curious, like, what What? Kind of stands out because it's a big compliment, but. Yeah, what, What?

Yeah, at least two things. One is that it's sort of like it's not the, your typical good reads or your, you know, here's the promotional stuff of something new. It's, it's, it's always, you know, generally something that's been out for a while. And it's probably also something that's a bit arcane, you know, a bit off the beaten path. I mean, I can just, I have this image of you like in a, in a New York library, you know, just blowing dust off of old volumes, going, aha.

Like that.

Yeah, so. So that I like. And honestly, you know, there's really kind of no other easy way to source something like that. There's a writer, Maria Popova, who I love. She has these.

Oh yeah, she's great.

Yeah, she, she like you, has introduced. She's kind of more in the classics. I mean, she's not thematic to hype stuff, but she, you know, she has opened my eyes to poets and artists and you know, blah, blah, and you know, name brand, you know, fire brands that I forgot about from junior high to, you know, folks I'd never heard of. So, So I dig that kind of thing and I feel like yours is in that type of genre. But then, then again you get specific to it and I don't know if it's just by nature of the topic, but also what you, A, you give the book, B, you give like just a bite size, you know, enough to say, you know, you know, okay, that sounds cool. I think I'll go look that up versus, you know, I think that's probably not cool. What's on the next one. So, you know, I feel like I can easily process your newsletter. It's not like I gotta, like, there's a lot of newsletters. I get where I go, this is really good. There's a lot of stuff, but I gotta go mine it, you know, I got it. So I'm gonna stick it in a folder and when I have time and then I totally forget about it, you know, and then I've got a big file folder full of stuff that then I'm overwhelmed with. So yours feels much more actionable. And I have no idea how you develop your cadence of when they send out. My guess is just kind of when you feel like it because it doesn't seem like it's calendar based or not. Not that I'm stalking you, like when does he do this? But it's like you know, they seem to come at a good pace. You know, they come at a time where it's like, I'm open for it. And that's just random, you know, I'm sure. So, so those are the things, you

know, I, it's, it's hard for me to make it calendar based because I have to, like, I don't like. I read a lot of books. Yeah, yeah. They take time to read and some of them are not great. You know what I mean? Like, so I have to find that four or five books that I want to actually recommend to people.

And maybe that's another thing that I like about it. I haven't read them all. Full transparency or, you know, even thumbed.

I mean, how could you.

But of any of the ones that I, that have kind of caught my eye, there's never been a stinker, you know. So again, that just kind of subsidizes either, you know, the Venn diagram of your interest in my interest, you know, or maybe closer to a big black dot, you know, but that's, I dig that. That's super helpful for me because I get, you know, I get overwhelmed with, you know, people. Just stuff I want to read and stuff. I just got that I'm a big fan of Bookminster Fuller and there's a new freaking biography. Yeah, just. And it's, it's, it's, it's three inches thick. You know, it's like, okay, I'm gonna have to punch this one out. So, so you make it, you know, you add an efficiency to that that I think again, if people dig your stuff, if they like the high pan book, if they, you know, kind of know what your eye is attuned to, then I think they'll get a lot of value, probably similar to how I do of being able to make it bite size, make it consumable, make it practical, enjoyable kind of a thing. So that's, that's, that's, that's.

Well, now I have, I have a second wind with this thing. Thank you. Now I'm going to, I'm going to promote it. I wasn't going to, but I want people to find it. It's hypereads.com Sign up for it there.

Yeah, good, we will.

Because I, you know, I love doing it because I'm such a reader and the only thing I get out of it is really being able to just have a back and forth dialogue with people who like my stuff. Right. Because it's, it's free and it's just, I do it out of the love of it sort of suss my ideas out. And what I love about it really, like out of a lot of the things I do, I get a lot of just wonderful emails from that thing. It's really one of the favorite kind of things I do and dialogues I have with the people out there. And kind of good for my ego too because I know people are listening, you know, so I'm gonna have to put one out soon.

Well, and we'll. And I'll put this all in the show notes too, so people can see it. But yeah, I mean, and just to also say it's not like you've commoditized it and you've offloaded this to some company that, you know, cranks out Michael's, you know, hyper, hyper age, you know, so it's, you know, the sincerity of that and that you do, you know, I mean, I don't think it's just, just because it was me or anything, but obviously like you just said, you know, you respond back to people, people respond back to you. You have by virtue of that similarity and shared appreciation of whatever the topics, the books, the writers, you know, it's all there part of that. And you do, you should take a victory lap with that, Michael. It's not easy.

That means a lot coming from you.

Yeah, it's very valuable. So, hey, listen, it's just always a kick to have you on. You're always up to such clever things. You're always so freaking well read and stuff. So I'll be getting that monogrammed bathrobe out to you soon. But in the meantime, I would love

it

if listeners want to know more about your work. We'll get the hypereeds.com in there too. But to get your book, best ways to follow you, what are some of the things we can stick in the show notes for them?

Yeah, I mean you should certainly put in the show notes like my company and all of that micro fame media and all that. But I would say that I always say the one thing I learned from traditional marketing is that you should only have one call to action. And I would say that my life's work is in that book, the Hype Handbook. So if you go to Amazon or wherever you buy books and check it out, that's if you're going to ever work with me, that's the thing that's going to convince you. And even if you don't work with me, you're going to, I hope, learn a lot. So check that out. And of course, Microphone Media.com is my company. But yeah, I mean, I, and if anyone does read the book, it's been out for a while. But I always. My readers are my favorite readers are my favorite people, as you can tell. So if you're my reader, you're even more of my favorite. So drop me a line and I'd love to talk to you just about anything really good.

I will have that happen. And also for listeners, I will put in the show notes the prior episodes where we did an even deeper dive into the book as well, too. So. Yeah, and it just, I just, I repeat myself from back then too, that the amount of research you do and the connecting of dots that you do and with the bit of the, you know, kind of a, I don't know, a wink and a nod or, you know, sort of a little dash of sarcasm in the way that you name things and, and, and your spin on things, your point of view on things is just a treat. I mean, it's just, it's, it's. There's very few, there's probably I could count on on one hand how many people write in such an entertaining as well as educating, no bullshit, you know, kind of way. So, so thanks for that. That is no easy task and I, I wish I could do the same so.

Well. I'm blushing. You do a million things very well and I'm not just saying that.

Yeah, well, thanks. You're. You're a close, good friend. It's great to have you on again and wish you all the best of luck and looking forward to seeing what comes next, buddy.

Thanks, Chris.

Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knott, LLC. Assistant Producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien Executive Producer and Host Dr. Chris St Out. To learn more, stop by our website at Lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks. And until next time,