The Invincible Norma Kamali

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the new fellowship and certificate programs now being offered by the center for Global Initiatives. As you may know, the center is an all volunteer organization and the same is true for the faculty in these programs. So all the tuition goes to support the work of the Center. It has always been our ethos to open source humanitarian intervention and these programs use the same approach in that all the materials we use are freely available all the time to anyone, everywhere, even if you don't take a course. We have built a world class faculty and contracts with other universities, medical schools and partnered NGOs. There are two fellowship tracks, one for those wishing to start their own nonprofit or non governmental organization and one for those seeking mentorship for career development and advancement and humanitarian work. Our initial certificate programs include humanitarian intervention, social entrepreneurship and global health practice. Please consider taking a world class masterclass with us. Visit alifeinfull.org and click on the CourseWorks tab to learn more. Thanks welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. Norma Kamali is one of America's most original and unique award winning fashion designers. Known for her innovative and influential garments which have set the standard for all of the biggest names in high fashion. She's won numerous awards and patents for her designs, including a Coty Award, the fashion equivalent to winning an Oscar, a plaque on the Fashion Walk of Fame, a CFDA Board of Directors Special Tribute Award, their Jeffrey Bean Lifetime Achievement Award, and the Firestarter Award from Forbes in advocacy for women's Empowerment. She's also a Presidential Award recipient for her work and leadership in the industry, as well as receiving the National Arts Club Medal of Honor. Norma was given the Women's Entrepreneurship Day Pioneer Award at the United nations and received an honorary doctorate from her alma mater, the Fashion Institute of Technology. Her work is part of the Smithsonian and the Museum of Arts collections and has been in numerous other museum displays showcasing her designs and celebrating her career. Additionally, she is a writer and director. Norma created and hosts the series Seriously on Women on Sirius XM as well as hosting the Normal Life podcast. And she launched the hey Baby campaign to stop the objectification of women. She's a leader in what she calls the democratization of fashion through affordability and sustainability. She's a pioneer in the application of innovative technology approaches in her entrepreneurial ventures as well as her life and work have been punctuated with an involvement with a who's who of notables, including Lady Gaga, Beyonce, Michelle Obama, Twyla Thorpe, Raquel Welch, Jacqueline Bissett, Cher, Robert De Niro, Diana Ross, John Lennon, Bette Midler, Christie Brinkley, Madonna, Richard Avedon. And the list honestly goes on. Most recently and a key part of our conversation in this episode will focus on her latest book, I Am Invincible, which is part autobiography and part guidebook on embracing a healthy lifestyle and looking forward to every milestone and changes they bring. I have been so looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to the show, Norma.

Thank you very much, Chris.

I'm so glad Jamie Metzl reached out and connected us. I've really been a fan of your work for years.

Oh, thank you.

So perhaps we could start with looking at how your career got off the ground and some of the challenges that you've had to overcome getting to where you are today.

Well, you know, it's very interesting when, when we start our careers, we're usually not as experienced as we should be, and we think we know ish what we want to do. And then the universe takes us on a little ride and we end up where we should be. And so I wanted to be a painter. Michelangelo was my God. I studied anatomy and life drawing for years because I wanted to be like Michelangelo. And my mother said, I think it would be good if you could start paying the rent or helping me, so you might want to think of something a little bit more realistic. Fortunately, I had grants and scholarships, and one of them was to fit. I studied fashion illustration. I had an incredible instructor who was a wonderful Japanese woman who was very disciplined, very tough. She never would have made it through this more sort of lenient time. But I am so grateful that she gave me the desire to be excellent. She pushed for that, and I realized how important it was. I ended up having a job interview. Experience. I worked so hard on my portfolio, and when I finally arrived in the office, the gentleman who was interviewing me was having a tuna sandwich and he had his feet up on his desk and he asked me to come to where he was sitting and turn around for him.

Oh, boy.

And that was. That was so unbelievably devastating, even though it's hardly anything that you can't survive. But what it did was it had me leave the office in tears and deciding I never want to work in the fashion industry again. I want to travel and see the world. And I did. I got a job in the office at Northwest Orient Airlines, and we would fly to Milwaukee, by the way. And I really learned a lot. I learned a lot about business and sales and promotions and marketing. I learned how to operate a Univac computer, which was one of the early placements of technology were at airlines. And I traveled to London round trip for four years, every weekend for $29 round trip. And I got to see London explode into the revolution. I saw it from the very, very, very beginning. So I always look back at the people or the situations that were so painful that forced you to go in the direction you should be going in. So that man and his sandwich, that I can act every time I think of it, I can smell the tuna sandwich. I look at him and I thank him for pushing me out the door. Imagine if I would have gotten that job and sat in that place and worked for him. What would have happened? Maybe not have been the dream I've been dreaming about. And so I thank him for really being the catalyst to get me at the right place at the right time. And that's where my inspiration to be in fashion came about. Because the 60s revolution, fashion was quite different from Mad Men fashion that had been just prior to that.

And you, you were somewhat of a. An envoy or an emissary of what you were seeing in London and vis a vis the fashion. And then you came back to New York and sort of had, like, a bit of an underground, you know, fashion shot, or boutique, would you call it? Tell us about that.

So, again, this is, you know, this is the 60s, so it's still kind of early. And nobody had worn a mini skirt before that. Nobody. I mean, in the history of fashion in streetwear, this just did not exist. And I was coming back with these skirts mid thigh, and cars were literally screeching, and people were calling out names and like, what? And I just was very proud of my little mini skirts. And so my friends were screaming, you have to bring back more. You have to bring back clothes for us. And I did. And I found a little basement store for $285 a month. And I decorated it with Salvation army things. And I even found snakeskin wallpaper at the Salvation army, believe it or not. And that was my little shop. I started selling the clothes while I was still at the airlines. And I was married at 19, of course. Brilliant decision. And my husband at the time was studying economics and he sold the clothes during the day. And then I, I worked in an early shift, so I worked from six to two, so I was able to come back and help out until I started to make clothes myself.

Wow. So. And that was your relationship with him lasted for about 10 years and then you went on your way. Tell us about what that being back solo again was like for you.

Well, you know, I. The two of us were very young and very inexperienced, which is what happens when you're in your 20s. You kind of fake it and you don't. You figure out what you're good at and you know what you're not good at. And so we just were growing in very different directions and, and I think it just went off in just the path again where the sales girl that he was dating and that I kept firing and he would keep rehiring decided that she was going to design from now on and that she wanted me to make her designs. And I remember looking at her thinking, really, really. When she, when she left the sample room, the ceiling literally over my cutting table fell. There must have been a leak in the, in the, between the floors and it just fell. And I looked at the ceiling on my cutting table. I packed up my bag and I just left. And I, I did not know what I was going to do. I had $98 because he controlled the money, which is typical at the time. Men took care of the money because men are much better at finance than women, supposedly. And I believed it, quite frankly, because I didn't know how I was at finance. And all I know is, and we had been separated from for almost a year at that point. And I had an apartment, but I had a mattress. I didn't have curtains, I didn't have furniture. I had my clothes and my dog and it was really so frightening. But again, I thank her, I thank her for kicking me out, pushing me out the door. And I had no idea that I had any ability with finances. I didn't ever tell anybody what was going on in my marriage. I kept it very private. And I had a pre planned lunch with an editor from the LA Times and I never, never met with anybody, I mean, ever. And she persisted. And the lunch was the day after I left and, and I didn't know how to get in touch with her. So I met her at the restaurant and my face was swollen from crying and she looked at me like, what happened to you? And it just poured out of me everything that I'd been holding in for many years. And she said, well, I'm going to help you. We're going to get you some sewing machines and we'll get some help. And I learned at that moment that if you do not communicate what you need and if you do not tell your story, nobody can help you. You can't get advice, you can't get direction, you can't get support. And I learned that keeping these secrets was just sort of a path to nowhere. And communication was definitely a very important part of my growth from that point out.

Well, you certainly have a variety of stories and experiences that you share in your book, and maybe this is a good segue into it. So, as mentioned in the intro, your new book is called I Am Invincible. The Wall Street Journal recently did an article about you and your writing where they noted, quote, it is a very American mix of memoir and manifesto, filled with personal stories, practical advice and pronouncements in bold type, including don't eat sugar ever and Stay. And I have to say, I really enjoyed it. I love your format with like the green edges of Norma's Guide. I mean, it made it very, you know, kind of easy to deal with that. Sure. And within that, for people that haven't yet picked up a copy, you cover such, you know, such a vast landscape, style and sleep and fitness and work life, and it's all while different aspects. It's all part of all of our lives. And I think you did it in such a complete but yet elegantly communicated kind of way. And I geek out. I have a lot of authors on the show and I always geek out about formats and things. And I also like your black bordered pages because then it's sort of like I know I'm making this transition into what I felt was a very frank autobiographical sharing of your personal experiences. I mean, on aging and your lessons learned and. And I really have to say your. Your life timeline was amazing. I don't know how many times. Again, kind of nerding out on working with authors, but I just love that because it really set. I could go back and forth in the book, in whatever chapter or section I was in and kind of, you know, pinpoint this is what was going on. It was just. And plus, your life timeline is pretty amazing as it is anyway. So if we could, could we step through the book using your decades model? But before we do that, let's maybe set a context. Also tell us about the three pillars as you've defined it. As a healthy lifestyle, could you discuss and talk about how you came to adopt them?

Well, thank you very much. You have no idea how much I appreciate your real detailed understanding of the book. I literally laid out every page myself. I was that. Yeah, I totally loved it. So you made my heart feel really good.

Oh, good. I appreciate it. It is beautiful. I mean, not just the words. I mean your faith fonts, your image. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Thank you.

People have to. Have to get it.

So I. In. In the 80s when AIDS was just devastating, my friends, my industry, my two best friends, we all share very close birthdays. One was born June 26, I'm June 27, and my other friend was June 28. And we were stuck together. Like, we did everything together. And when they both died, I fell apart. I felt like I didn't know how to deal with something that didn't have a solution, that meant death, that meant it would end. And all I Remember is hearing Dr. Fauci, by the way, talk about AIDS and the problem, progress and lack of progress that was being made. And it meant that the immune system was compromised. So you may have aids, but you could die of liver disease or heart disease or, you know, anything but what you would think AIDS would do. And so I decided my way of dealing with grief would be to find ways that I could understand how to support and fortify the immune system. And so I. This meant going to actual libraries with actual books, actual, you know, research. And I. And I did a lot of research, and I went out west and I went. And I met amazing people who were very underground in the concept of proactive health, healthy lifestyle. And actually, Andrew Wilde was very, very much in the forefront of this at the time. And he would have these weekend seminars and retreats, and he would invite people like Michael Pollan, who would just started writing, talking and writing about food and how we grow food, and Dr. Low Dog, a Native American medicine woman who used herbs for health and curing. And he would talk about mushrooms and all kinds of things, acupuncture, Chinese medicine, and I was fixated. And he would do these seminars also for doctors to study these courses. And of course, they all were very, you know, well versed in chemistry, and I was not. But I would take my notes. I still have all my little books and notes, and I learned so much, and I was so inspired. And I met more and more mentors along the way, and I'm still friends with Andrew Weil and with the. A lot of the people that I've met at that time and more. And Horst from Aveda became an incredible mentor for me as well. And learning about beauty products and how they were making women sick and how I could learn and understand and discover right away, as he said, you have to get rid of that red lipstick and those red nail polishes killing you. And he said, read this. And he gave me a study. And that was the end of my signature red lips and red nails. That's gone. I haven't had nail polish on ever since and no lipstick. So I really, I've been very, very fortunate to meet some fascinating people. And I learned about the three pillars of a healthy lifestyle, which are sleep, diet and exercise. And I made, I, I immediately made the practice of healthy lifestyle mine. Prior to that, I think I probably smoked for a couple of years. I would eat bacon cheeseburgers with, you know, holding it in my, with my red nails and then popping on a cigarette. Perf time. And, you know, a real pretty picture.

Yeah.

And I really didn't think about any of it until I really discovered again how painful experiences or shocking or very disruptive experiences push you where you should go. And here again, I found this incredible adventure that is still a very big part of my life. So I incorporated sleep, diet, exercise, and everything I've learned. I wish I had more pages because there's so much more, but the essence is there on how important it is to use these three pillars as the most important tool to age with power. And I, I believe, and I, and anybody who reads the book right after you close the book or after you hear a conversation that inspires the practice of following a healthy lifestyle can incorporate this immediately without any financial investment. It's very easy to. To just eat less food and better food. It's very easy to walk or to go up and down a flight of stairs a number of times and get exercise or do anything that's movement. And sleep is something that is important to do every day because the stress we are experiencing now especially really takes a toll and every cell in our body needs to get invigorated and restored for the next day. So you can't make up sleep on a Saturday for sleep you lost on Tuesday and Wednesday. So I put a lot of information in the book on how to try to get into these practices without it being an awesome task that you can't. You have to think about and decide this is just do it. Just do it and keep doing it and it will be part of your lifestyle. So I really think making it free and easy is a great Inspiration.

Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, one of the other things that you did in the book was to give a very nicely detailed set of resources at the tail end. So for some folks that might need a little bit more help or a little bit more coaching in an area that maybe they don't have, you know, much knowledge or experience with, that it's a resource for them as well. But it is nice with the way that you put it together, that it's not an overwhelming or, you know, it's not like reading the encyclopedia. I mean, you, you make the points, you give them very clearly. They're very, you know, almost little manifestos, you know, on certain pages, which is really, I think, engaging and, and very nice to see. And, you know, and you are, I think, the inspirational walking the talk as well, too. I think, you know, overall, Covid might put a speed bump in this in terms of longevity, but I think more and more people are also looking to not just having, you know, living a long life, but also continuing to live a full life in whatever things those might be, be it, you know, social and relationships might, it might be their work. It might be, you know, whatever aspects that, you know, may. Our grandparents or great grandparents, you know, might have lived to a ripe old age, but really weren't that functional or very sedentary. And that's certainly not something that I think that we're seeing these days. And I think it really speaks to that need. So thank you for that. So to circle back to your origin story and kind of stepping us through some of the things that you've had to do. So the 20s was what you talked about with London and your initial stuff start in New York and then this transition to a different circumstance. I believe also in the book you talk about, you were profiled in Vogue and Harper's Bazaar. People were starting to have some external appreciation and seeing your work. Tell us about that.

Yeah, I mean, it's very interesting, especially at that age when you're sort of working in the unknown. You have no experience, but you believe you're this, you know, better than anybody. I was so smart and so, you know, I, I could hardly be half as smart as I was then, now that I know better. But, but that was sort of the, sort of the, the ignorance is bliss philosophy. And so I just went, went on my way to try to get it done. And in your 20s, you don't really know what you can do until you start doing it right and you recognize where, where your strengths are. So I, I, I Find that learning through your 20s is the. Is the key. But it's also a time in your 20s where you're most vulnerable, so inexperienced, and that's where some of the most painful experiences take place. There's always that power in the room. There's always that, you know, the insecurity that you have for not knowing, you know, not knowing if you're doing it right or wrong, and then realizing that you've embarrassed yourself or even in relationships and friendships and with sex and everything, that you're doing it the first time as an adult. You're really seeing who you are through these experiences. And getting through that, I think, is such a big initiation, because people ask me all the time, wouldn't you like to be in your 20s again? I'm like, hell, no. What the heck would I want to do that for? There is no way. And the 20s, I speak with a lot of them. You know, I've been meeting and talking to a lot of people who are, you know, Gen Z slash, millennial. Two very different groups. But they really feel so robbed that this very critical time in their development just shut them down and kept them isolated. And they're really. The anxiety level is so high. And you can understand it because these are precious moments in their discovery of themselves and who they might be.

Right. So you make it through the 20s, things start to kind of get going. But in your book, you talk about being somewhat shy and inhibited, and you started to mimic outgoing role models as being an entrepreneur. And I love you had a section in there where you talked about which must have been, you know, kind of a boon to your feeling a little bit more confident that certain pattern. Pattern makers said that your outlandish ideas couldn't be done. So then you figured out how to engineer your clothes yourself. And I don't know if the icing on the cake was doing Studio 54's Grace Jones new Year's Eve costume, but tell us about the 30s and getting to that point of maybe a little bit more confidence in being able to do things that others couldn't.

Well, you know, now I have employees who are all twice my age and very experienced, and I have to pretend to be their boss. And just like those pictures in Vogue and Bizarre, where I kept thinking, they're going to find me out. No, I don't know what I'm doing. And I have these pages. So that recognition and at the same time, also having to be a boss was very overwhelming in certain ways and also inspiring in others where, okay, I'm getting recognition. Okay, I have. I'm hiring people. There's something. I'm feeling a certain energy about that. But then when they don't want to pay attention to you because they don't think, you know, you're too young for them to listen to. And I thought, I always. I always believe that if somebody says it can't be done, I have to prove that it can be done. So I studied fashion illustration. Fit. And I had no desire to learn how to sew or anything like that. And all of a sudden it was like, I better learn how to do this. And I've never taken a pattern making course, but I learned really fast. And still today, my favorite, favorite thing out of everything I do is making patterns. And I. I have pattern makers. I have a staff, but I enjoy the process. It's so meditative because you can't think about anything else. You have to focus on what you're doing. And I love making swimwear patterns. And I just made two very challenging swimwear patterns in this. This last week. And I did it on the first shot you make. The pattern sample maker sews it, and it doesn't need any fit corrections. And I was like, yes, how lucky am I to still be doing the same thing 53 years later and feeling like I'm still getting better? And so by having that resistance, I was very motivated to control what I could design, which allowed me to be inventive, which allowed me. Me not to rely on other people's experience, which could be limited in certain areas that I wanted to go into where they feared to tread.

I like that. It seems like a wonderful evolution from having felt like imposter syndrome to then really finding your footing and being able to do these things that maybe at some point in time people said couldn't be done. Well, yes, they can be done. And now you've got it to a level of. Of flow where it's a meditative process. And, you know, that's quite the blessing. I think that certainly speaks to your skills and abilities. So now let's shift into the 40s. Sidney Kimmel Global Licensing. You became an overnight sensation. After 12 years of being a cult underground designer. You got into home furnishings. Tell us about that time.

Well, this is. This is interesting because 40s, you know, for. In general, I think by the time you get to your 40s, you know your brand, right? And it doesn't. It doesn't even have to be a business brand. You could be doing anything, but, you know, your abilities, and it's a Time to monetize them or to bring them together with sort of a recognition. And here I was. I finally earned my. My brand. I finally earned the. The recognition. And I was just. I had the right collection at the right time, and it was very revolutionary. We were coming out of Studio 54 with sparkles and all of that stuff to gray sweats. And I really learned so much about my abilities through my 40s. I learned about my business sense. I learned about having lots of licenses and working with a lot of people from around the world. I learned about telling my story in a bigger way. And I loved giving serving women. My purpose in life is obviously to have a creative life. But I also know I am totally at service to women, and I am totally in love with the fact that I am. I feel very, very honored to do that. And so here I recognize that I could actually make people feel good. And whether it was through a piece of clothing or something for the home or for kids or all of these shoes, sneakers, everything, I learned that I had the ability to do it on a. On a grand scale if I wanted to. And here it was.

And then there was also a learning experience of a split from Jones Apparel. Tell us what happened then.

Right. Well, you know, I was very naive about the business world of unions and deals that are made. And obviously, Jones Apparel was a huge company. Sydney would tell me every time I would complain about something like, why are these clothes in these different places that they shouldn't be in? And he'd say to me, you're only a pimple on an elephant's ass. And I'm like, oh, my God. So his relationship with the New York Unions vs. The Philadelphia Unions that he had to deal with, all of that stuff, I had no idea what that was about, but I had a huge learning experience, which is another part of the 40s. So in your 40s, you also have these big. Now you can handle big stuff, right? And so you have these big experiences. And this. This whole encounter of a world I had no knowledge of and the power of. Of this world was fascinating to me. It was devastating because I. I was in fear of things I didn't know, but I was, because I had a very big business in Europe and internationally, so I could be very independent of whatever he had worked out. But I really enjoyed the process and I enjoyed the. The time I spent with Sydney. And we. We were going to get together again to do another business deal. And we had some ideas through the years, but I. I have a whole other book on that. Period of time. It would. It's a whole other. It's a. It's a Netflix series. It's not even a book.

I believe it. That would be great. Well, the shift. And again, it seems like there's this constant thread of learning from a variety of kinds of experiences. Not everything's going to be rainbows and butterflies. There's these kinds of things that then create probably a bit more gumption on your part and a bit more, hey, I can do this independently. There's times for support, there's times for help and assistance, and there's times to, you know, say thank you and fare thee well. So. So then was the 50s, your 50s, kind of. It was the Wellness Cafe beginning. And was this more of the awakening and awareness around the lifestyle kinds of issues? Tell us about that.

Well, 50 is huge for everybody. And I. I can only say that 50, first of all, the evolution between the transition period in your 40s, the late 40s, into 50s, like a snake shedding its skin, you really emerge. And it's a great time for reinvention. And I decided to get rid of all of my possessions. And I had some serious possessions. I had an incredible home, a place that I looked at as a little girl. Every time I would go to the museum, I would wonder who lived in these buildings. They were so extraordinary. And I ended up feeling at one point, when I was sketching my collection, that the beauty around me was so extraordinary with things I collected and put together and made. But it was trapping me in a way to stay in that and not move forward. And I decided that I wanted to move forward, and I was going to have to let that go. And so it was a big, big, big decision. And I literally. I had an auction at Christie's. I gave away a lot of things. I had so many things. And I had every sample collection I created from the beginning at a warehouse, sold all of that.

Wow.

And I decided from that point out that I wanted a minimal lifestyle so that I had a blank canvas at all times for new ideas. And still Today, I am Ms. Minimal.

Good for you.

It does take some adjusting to strangers and new people in your life. I will say that.

Yeah.

Where are the photos? Where are the, like, where are the paintings? Where is everything? But I. But that was a very big transformation. So in. In my 50s, I was really down to the basics. I had been living this healthy lifestyle, and at this point, and I was doing that through my 40s, obviously, but at this point, I decided to open the Wellness Cafe and really Make a statement about it. Really bring products together that could support the immune system and bring people together to have conversation out in the open. People would think I. I was a kook. Like, they'd say, oh, you're so kooky, Norma. You talk about these things like, okay. But then I found people who thought the same, and we would have speakers and events with trying lots of different things. And that was my sort of presenting this as a part of what wanted to offer as part of what I did. So that the transformation we make through 50 to 55 really sets the tone for the rest of your life. It really is. You are making a decision either to be visible or invisible. And that's a big decision to make. And there is no reason to be visible, become invisible. There is no reason to age gracefully. There is lots of reason to age with power and to be visible and to be a contributor to your community or your world or whatever it is that you want to do to engage and interact with people.

I think you have so many examples that are very inspirational of how you. You've done that. And I think it, it really speaks to your authenticity as well, too. I mean, it's sort of like there's. I think a lot of times people will have these transitions of, you know, owning possessions and possessions, owning them and realizing that, you know, you know, I've kind of gone through a similar. We were talking off mic beforehand about our move, and it was, you know, my hardest thing was like, you know, books. I felt like I was saying goodbye to some friends who had been there for me, you know, during hard times. And, you know, I didn't give away every book, but, you know, there are certainly some that I, you know, will continue to keep and treasure. And there's almost this aspect of, you know, the totem of what you do keep because it's so, you know, there's some, you know, usually other kinds of meanings because it represents a time in your life or other kinds of things. So it really, you know, I very much get that. And I think it's a nice way that you then operationalized it, pardon me, also through the Wellness Cafe and being able to get that sense of community and approaches to be able to do those things. And I guess it probably teed you up then for you've kind of coined this term the democratization or democracy of fashion. And you have had, you've done, I think, some very radical cool things around sustainability. You've had some of your fashions available at Walmart and some people, I thought this was an interesting point. I think it was in the book about people would buy them and then reprice them more expensively and sell them on ebay.

Exactly.

So tell us about this era and in particular, maybe a touchstone with this. Tell us about what the significance of room 741 at Washington Irving High School is.

I will. I want to just hop back to your book story because I too, you know, treasured my books and things like that. But what the interesting thing that entered my head about possessions like that was that other people like Europe, that book, unless there were references in it or something you needed to look at again or you wanted to reread over a period of time, that book deserved to have another family or another person to have that experience, or whether it's a piece of clothing or I had so many tapes, music tapes and things, that I just thought, there's another life for this. There's. Instead of just sitting on a shelf or in a warehouse or if I'm not actually using it, somebody should be. It shouldn't talk about sustainability. Right.

It's a perfect example.

Let it be sustainable by holding onto it and not interacting with it. It's not, it's not good. It's not a sustainable concept. But if that. It's just like clothing where people buy something, they hand it down to somebody else and then it goes into a vintage store and then somebody else buys it and it, it can keep having a life. And I. I'm a big believer in having that cycle going and I've learned to really keep that. I transfer. You know, you talk about room 741. 741 was my homeroom class at Washington Irving High School, a public school in New York City referred to as survival of the fittest High school. So.

Wow.

I went there because I needed to get a scholarship. I needed scholarships and grants to go to college because my mother definitely couldn't afford it as a single mom. And so I traveled to get to this school, a very tough school, so that they had a very good art course there, by the way, and I was able to get that. But room 741 were so meaningful for me that when I was asked to come back when the school, the school was. Was all girls, and then when it became co ed in the 80s, they were having a really hard time. It was survival of the fittest before then, and it was like, I don't know, hell on wheels after. So they, they contacted me and some other graduates to say, we need help. The neighborhood stores are Going out of business. People are complaining that their cars are being destroyed and that the kids are just running rampant, and we need to engage them. We need you to come help. And I realized they were thinking that I should, you know, have some fundraising. And I was like, I'm not. That's not what I do. I'm happy to go in the classroom. Let me in the classroom. I can. I. I'm. I can do that. I'm a city girl. I'm not afraid. They said, no, no, no. You guys, like, just get me in the classroom. And so I remember going into the classroom, and absolutely not one person in that room would pay attention to me. And so finally, one girl raises her hand, but her back is to me. She's just raising her hand. She was busy putting on makeup,

and

she said, so what's it. So, miss, what's in it for you to be here? Because they've been let down so many times. That is an obvious question. And I said, well, I sat in this very classroom, and because I sat in this classroom, I learned and was inspired to do what I'm doing today. And I explained to them what I'm doing, and I explained what I was. You know, what. What that meant, and that I could hire people and that I had power as a woman in an industry. And. And I started to get their attention.

And.

And so it evolved beautifully, and I. I transformed that room into a design studio. I put in cutting tables and sewing machines and mannequins, and we. We took it from there, and it was a wonderful, wonderful experience for many, many years. I am a big advocate of education for all children, no matter what the income is. And I learned a lot about the public schools. And that's another Netflix series we can deal with. I'm telling you, that's a big one.

I'm making notes.

And I was very, very, very involved on a daily. On a daily basis with the parents, the teachers, the kids. And I really. I plan to go back to that after we have our next mayoral election, because I am so. I feel so committed and thankful for my education and this city that I really feel very, very inclined to engage again.

That's great. Again, it just. These experiences are so, I think, emblematic of who you are. There's so many people that would prefer to write the check, prefer to do the glamorous fundraiser versus, you know, rolling up the sleeves, getting in the equipment, spending the time with the kids, and actually know, going in and doing that. That's. I tip my hat to you. So that Brings us up to now. You've been called a wellness goddess, which I particularly like that. I thought that was pretty cool. You are working with the American Ballet Theater with dance costumes and Twyla Thorpe. You have also again been kind of, I think a leader in the area of male and female fluidity. I remember I actually had a guest a couple of episodes ago on. We got to talking about the New York Dolls. And I know that you've been involved, were involved with them back in the day and really kind of have this, I think very clever, creative, non binary kind of perspective. And you've relabeled sizing based on body type. How did you come up with that? And for people that aren't familiar with that, explain what that is.

Well, I think it's really important to put a little history to this. So in the 70s there, there was a period I've always made women's clothing, right. I never, I just made clothing that I liked and my customers were women. However, in the 70s there was a period where we started to look at the sales receipts and we realized that 50% of our clients were men and 50 were women. It was a half and half. And it was that way for a while and it was fantastic because this was a time where free expression was very, very much the way people dressed. And if you think about Mick Jagger on stage, you're probably too young to remember this, but I do. On stage with lipstick and woman's shirt and nail polish and just swishing around on stage and appealing to everyone, men, women, bi, whatever you're thing is you can be attracted to Mick Jagger. And he really and many others, he wasn't the only one, but he's a good example of it. Were totally free of the identification of gender that really, I mean, if you think about it in a lot of people's lives, it's put a big burden on what a man should have to do and what a woman has to do. And like what isn't it more important what a person should do? And so, and we all, you know, I like dressing masculine and feminine and I believe men and I, I find that very appealing. And a lot of women find it very appealing when a man has a feminine something that they like. It just shows a gentle side that is extremely sexy and appealing. And so then came aids and it shut that down completely because people were so afraid of the unknown and what was going on. And so every guy was dressing as butch and looking, you know, almost shaved hair, like they just got out of the army and Walked out too much and had plaid shirts and boots and jeans and like the feminine aspect just you couldn't find it anywhere. And so what's happened over time is people who really remember aids, who remember and had the experience I had and the experience people of my generation have had are far, far removed now from the population. And I started to see an interest from people on a photo shoot. I remember the first conversation that sort of activated this was I was having a photo shoot and the assistant hair, hair designer, hairdresser was a big New York Dolls fan, like an extraordinary New York doll fan. And he looked like he could be a New York doll. And he said to me, I love these clothes, I wish I could wear them. I'm, you know, I'm a big dolls fan and I know they wore of yours. And he knew everything. And I said, well, when the photo shoot is over, why don't you pick out some things you like and we'll take some pictures, just put some outfits together. And he did. And from that point on, and I have done that each season with either people I think might be good candidates for it for a photo shoot, guys that work for me or models. And it is the most exhilarating thing to see. They have no memory of AIDS personally. So this free thinking about gender fluidity is really a natural thing. I think it's a thing that men would admit to that they do like some feminine things and they do like creams and they do like to do some of these things that we love and why not? And so the gender fluid concept I believe is going to go on because God bless Gen Z, they are amazing. I love them. They have no walls up, they have no barriers up. They're not talking about what divides us. They are only talking about all the things that connect us. So there are no harsh lines for religion, race, gender, any of that. It's just one big fluid, friendly thing. And they are very spirited and they're very, they're very community minded and I'm looking forward to seeing how this rolls out.

It's nice to see that. I agree. It's nice to see that in the context too then of also taking care of oneself and fashion and clothes. Because I think sometimes people sort of silo those things into different areas and see them as not, you know, being interconnected. And I think you do a wonderful job of bringing them very synthetically all together. I, I, if you have the time, I just have a few more questions, but there's an area great I, there's an area I want to talk to you about, and that's your activism and humanitarian work. It's also been very broad spectrum and it includes your battling of the objectification of women, of living on purpose purpose and embracing proactive well living and well being. And you're also quoted, I forget if it's in the book or just elsewhere. It's probably in a variety of places. Noting that girls compete and women empower. Tell us more about that and your work in this area.

Well, objectification really is an experience that women my age and younger experienced constantly through every aspect of our lives. And while it was the norm and we accepted it as the way it should be, it would not, I would say it would be uncomfortable and embarrassing and humiliating at many times. And those experiences really have an imprint on self esteem and how we function as women. And so after years of this, there's a lot of anger and a lot of pain. And unless we talk about it and recognize it, nothing would happen. And this was a big period of time prior to MeToo that I started to create conversation about it so that we could talk about some of these painful experiences. And to be honest, my experience in my first job interview, I did not talk about when I came home, I told my mother I didn't get the job. And I didn't talk about it until I literally pushed it out of my mind, until I started to open conversation with women that I'm around all the time about our secrets, talking about our secrets that we never told anybody. And then I realized I had all these secrets, all of these situations that were painful for me that I needed to just get rid of. And I needed to get rid of them by sharing them. And by sharing them, I would be inspiring other women to remember their experiences. And it's sort of like the big cleanse that we would have. And some of these stories were very, very painful and very difficult. And the realization for fathers that this is what girls go through was the big motivation so that if a father heard these stories from his daughter and his wife, he would then be an advocate for ending the objectification of women. And we were really making very good headway. And that conversation was very important. And it still is important. But there's so much more support for women and more education. And so the idea of empowering women and having these dreams that could be real, these big dreams that women never thought of, we thought of little practical dreams, but big dreams always were sort of a male thing. And the, the idea of mentoring girls and all of those, those pages that I've written in the book about supporting young women and giving, giving women a platform was really a very important part of the, the evolution of this awareness about the objectification of women.

That's great. So what's next for you?

Well, so I'm a long game person, right. I decided that when I interviewed, by the way, you, you referred to some of the products that I list in the book because so many people have been asking about more things. I'm putting up some things on my website and I also have podcasts of people that I've interviewed who are experts in hormone therapy and experts in aging and scientists who know a lot about it. So I do have more information to follow. But one of the, one of the things that I'm thinking about is expanding the book further in that way and also with more education and bringing people together, what people virtually can learn from. But I Also look at 120 as the last, the last turnover of the cells I learned from one of these scientists. And I thought, well, you know, I don't know what my genetic makeup is. I really don't. And whatever it is, I'm going to ignore it and I'm going to say I want to live to 120. Therefore, I have to be mindful of what I do each day and how, what, how am I taking care of myself and make my plans accordingly. So think ahead. The long game is there for me. So I'm in the immediate future, I'm launching some soft furniture ideas during a disruptive time like Covid, like a pandemic. The door is open for innovation and I love disruptive times because I do better with innovation. I'm more of an inventive designer. So I, I find these times very inspiring and my staff want to kill me. So we're launching this soft furniture and I have a new concept for movement, physical movement that I'm also going to present probably in the middle, middle to the end of the summer, just before the fall. And, and I'm working on lots of fun projects that have to do with new ideas in a new time and new communication.

Gosh, I, I can't wait. Wow.

I can't either.

Well, good. And send me as these things become available and we'll make sure we get them into the show links as well too. The show notes.

Oh, great.

So Norma, I just want to thank you again for all the things that you have done and that you are doing and now that we've learned or are going to be doing to make the world such a better place and more fun place and more engaged place. And thank you for sharing your wisdom. I think it's really a testament to your kindness and to your generosity. So for listeners that would like to learn more about your work, more about what's coming down the pike, what are the best ways?

Well Norma Kamali.com there's the normal life section. So there, there's information about healthy lifestyle there and, and the book is at Amazon. And I thank you so much for having such a thorough, well thought out plan for this meeting. I really, really appreciate it.

It's my pleasure.

It's fantastic.

I mercenarily get two bonuses. One is I get to enjoy the book and then two is I get to talk to the author. So it's been a treat for me and our listeners as well. Thank you so much Norma.

And yeah, thank you and thank Jamie.

That's right. Shout out to Jamie Metzl. That's right.

Yes.

All right, have a great. You too. Bye bye. Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot LLC. Assistant Producer, Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien Executive Producer and Host, Dr. Chris Stout. To learn more, stay stop by our website elifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks. And until next time,