The State of Ultra Running 2020: Innovation in "Data-Athletics" with Paul Ronto

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the nonprofit I founded, the center for Global Initiatives. The center is an all volunteer organization so there are no salaries and thus all tax deductible donations can go to the work. While our key country partner is in Tanzania, our work is global and generally focused in the areas of education and healthcare. We also help others to get their nonprofits started or augment others project based initiatives. It's our goal to open source humanitarian intervention and to help make it easier for others to do more good in the world. We are proud to have been ranked a great non profit every year since 2011 and to have achieved a Platinum level rating by Guidestar Links in this episode's show, notes will take you to published articles on our outcomes, a number of helpful tools and downloadable resources which are all free always. Please Visit us at CenterForGlobalInitiatives.org and be sure to watch our video at Patreon.com DrChrisTout to learn more. Thanks welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. I'm happy to welcome Paul Ronto to the show. He's the Director of Digital Content and Chief Marketing Officer at Run Repeat in Fort Collins, Colorado, the world's largest athletic footwear review site. He's also a hiking expert, ultra marathoner and adventurer. In the last 20 years, Paul has climbed, hiked and run all over the world. He's summited peaks throughout the Americas, trekked through Africa, run six marathons, and also competed in 24 hour trail races. Additionally, he has worked in the outdoor industry as a whitewater and hunting guide, gear tester, copywriter, and outfitting specialist at Knowles, the National Outdoor Leadership School, which is awesome if you're not familiar with it. As well as no Barriers USA and Sierra Trading Post, he's been quoted in New York Magazine, NBC News and Business Insider to just name a few. His industry expertise includes work with Hyper Growth Stage Software as a service startups, nonprofits, $20 billion multinational companies, and a number of small and midnight mid sized businesses across the nation. He's also a fellow data wonk. He's part of the recently released report, the state of ultrarunning 2020, which we'll be discussing and doing a very deep dive on in today's show. And it was produced by Run Repeat and the International association of Ultra Runners. Welcome to the show, Paul.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris. I'm excited to be here and talk about this study as well as whatever else comes up.

Awesome. Great. It's going to be a great conversation. So before we get into the report, I want to set a little context for the listeners about your company, Run Repeat. In my research of it, it seems like you're a very data driven organization. And I've read that you have what I think is the largest database of reviews with over 4 million athletes and 12,000 experts having contributed. So can you tell us about this process? How does it work? How do you get so many contributors?

Yeah, for sure. First off, yes, Run Repeat is a footwear review site. Technically, we're the largest athletic footwear review site on the web. Our interest is to help users find the right footwear for whatever sport they're interested in doing. And, and we do that in a variety of ways. One way is we aggregate reviews from all over the web. So those tend to be user reviews. And we have a team of writers here at Run Repeat who read through every single review we can find. And then we summarize the pros and the cons of why a piece of footwear or specific model or brand might be the right shoe for someone. We take, you know, Maybe we'll take 1,000 reviews and we, we spend over 20 or 30 hours reading all those reviews and boil that down into something the user can really understand in just 30 or 40 seconds. We try to take all that research off the plate of the consumer and get them the information they need that's most important to the purchase they're making. And so that's one part of it. We aggregate review. We also have an extra review system where we have users that post reviews on our site as well as expert testers that we send product to. So they go out and actually use the product extensively and write up an expert review. And so all that review data then eventually gets aggregated into what we call our core score. And our core score is a very simple metric. It's a score between 1 and 100. Obviously, the closer to 100, the higher rated the, the shoe is. And it allows the user very simply to see on that, on that basis from 1 to 100, how high this shoe is scored. And those scores are a weighted average between expert reviews, user reviews, and reviews we find online. And then the last piece of our puzzle is we partner with over 250 retailers across the US and internationally as well, make sure that we find the exact product that consumer wants, whether it's a color or a specific size, for the best price. And so we take all the research out of having to then go and find that, that shoe at a, at a retailer online somewhere. And so it makes the shoe buying process extremely easy. And that's really our main focus is helping the consumer find the right footwear for whatever sport they're participating in.

That is great. And I know, I remember from looking at your site too, obviously the sweet spot is for runners, but you also have hiking boots and a variety of other kinds of footwear for just about whatever kind of activity. It seems like that's pretty amazing. So it's almost like a meta analysis. Then you guys go out and search and scrape and get these things and then consolidate it all down into the core score. Is that right?

Yeah, yeah. Basically what we're doing is a meta analysis. Our goal is to find all the information possible on every model of athletic footwear and then aggregate it into a very simple and understandable format so that it's easy for the user to pick the right shoe for them. You know, you're right. Ultimately, we started as a running focused company. You know, the name Run Repeat is a misnomer these days, but our founder was a very running focused guy. And as we've grown, we've grown into other athletic categories, and the brand has kind of stayed the same as Run Repeat. But you're right, we've got hiking boots, mountaineering shoes, volleyball shoes, soccer cleats, football cleats, shoes. I mean, any athletic footwear you can really imagine needing to, to purchase for whatever sport you do, we, we tend to cover.

That's great. I. I think like, like Runner's World magazine and stuff like that. I actually still get the print copies and stuff. And it's, you know, I'll go through and, you know, they'll, they'll be like, here's the trail run and here's the this season shoes, and here's the stable shoes and all that. And it really is sort of an overwhelming process. And then I'll just sort of vet something down. I do like the, like knowing how much a shoe weighs and those kinds of things in addition to all the other metrics, but it just you know, it becomes kind of this, you know, rabbit hole is like, oh my God, have I researched everything or what have I, you know, if I missed an issue or, you know, what have you. So it really is nice that this service that you all, you know, provide for folks or whatever kinds of shoes and my historically my weakest link, always my feet. I mean, it was, you know, every, periodically a tweak or a joint issue or something, but, you know, blistering for long distances in particular, and blistering. And that was a problem with, with climbing boots and hiking boots and, you know, the whole, whole bit. So I tip my hat to, to your founder and the development of this. It's, it's certainly a wonderful service for those of us that, you know, still are always kind of searching for the, you know, the next best shoe and what works and what doesn't. So maybe that's a good segue over into talking a little bit more about database kinds of things. So you and I hope I'm going to pronounce her name correctly. So tweak me if I mispronounce, but Vanna Nikolova, did I pronounce that right?

Yeah, we call her Vanya here.

Vanya. Okay.

She's one of our data analysts on the team.

Well, she just to give a little shout out to her and the bio that I found on her, she's got a PhD in mathematical analysis as well as is her kind of sounds like her sport is obstacle course racing. She had earned the Spartan Trifecta medal, which I've done a few like tough mudders and stuff like that. So I, you know, I think my, my son still has like a barbed wire, ripped, fire singed, you know, shirt or something from, from one of his races. So she also has over 10 years of experience in weightlifting, martial arts and nutrition. And her work, published work. She's on npr, she's been in the Washington Post, in Shape magazine, Prevention magazine and many other venues. So the two of you working with Run, Repeat and the IAU, collaborated to then create what I want to talk about with you today, the State of Ultrarunning 2020. So first off, this is the first I've heard of anything like this. Is this the first report of its kind?

You know, there's been a few different reports that have tried to understand what's happening in the running world, but there's never been a this big with this many data points. This report really was a passion piece that came out of a report we did earlier in 2019, which was called the state of running where we looked at traditional distance race, 5k, 10k, half marathon and marathon, and wanted to see what was going on in the world of competitive running. That report, obviously the traditional distance races have a much bigger participant base and that report was based on about 107 million data points. And so compared to the state of running which was just over 5 million data points. And so, you know, it was over 20 times more data for that piece. And we had really good response on it. We partnered with the IAF and we're actually the keynote speaker in China last year talking about the state of running.

Wow.

And so this was a follow up piece based on some interest that I had as an ultra runner, but also wanted to see, see what was going on in ultrarunning. You know, we had continued to hear that ultra running was on this growth trajectory that was very different than traditional distance races. What we discovered in that original piece was that there's actually been a decline in the last couple years in participation in traditional distance races. And so wanting to understand what's happening in this ultra distance category and why that's still growing at a very healthy rate compared to traditional races, that was kind of impetus for the study.

Gotcha, Gotcha. So the tell me the data what you're in again, how many million?

So this piece had over 5 million results from just over 15,000 different races over a span of 23 years. We could have gone back a little further, but we figured going back 23 years was enough to get a snapshot. You know, our goal with these pieces is like we want to take the 30,000 foot view snapshot of the sport and see what shakes out. And so that's where we went with this. And you know, I think like I said, it's the biggest study that's been done on ultra running to date. And the results really actually surprised us. We had some expectations, but there were some findings that came out of this that were really interesting that we didn't expect as well. And so that's the fun part about doing these studies is at the end of the day learning something that maybe you didn't expect.

Right? Yeah, I always kind of struggle with confirmation bias. You know, as soon as I find what it was I thought I was going to find, it's like, okay, don't rest, you know, keep looking. And. But so it is, it's particularly nice when you do find those kinds of, you know, those surprises that, you know, might, might cause you to scratch your head and maybe take a look at the data Again, so I'm, I'm kind of cheating. I have some, in my notes, some bullets points about some of the. The key findings and results. And I thought I might like, you know, say those out loud for the listeners. They'll be in the show notes and in LinkedIn and some other places that the, the show is more in written form so people can see these. They're sort of hard to, you know, understand if, you know, you're driving in your car and hearing all these numbers. But is that, does that sound good? Is that a good approach? I can hit some bullet highlights and then you can maybe provide some color commentary to the scores, so to speak.

Yeah, I think that's great.

Great. Okay. So one of the things that stood out, I think it's just fascinating talking about, like, you know, clickbait kind of a thing of something that really attracts your attention, that female ultra runners are faster than male ultra runners. However, and this is where I love your data sophistication at distances over 195 miles, you know, so you could have, you know, maybe, you know, little snarkily said, you know, oh, women ultra runners are faster. But then you went to the second, you know, took that second step and said you in these kinds of distances. So the data you had said that the female pace was 1719 minutes a mile, which is 0.6% faster than the male, which was 1725 minutes a mile. So can you kind of unpack that for us a little bit? So, you know, again, I tip my hat to you of, like, getting into the data so deeply to be able to say, well, you know, this only really occurs when it's over 195 miles, which is nothing to sneeze at. I would imagine your end starts to diminish. You know, the. The greater the mileage, the lower the runners. But. But maybe not. So tell it, tell us about that.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, this data point is interesting because we could have ended this analysis at 100 miles.

Sure.

So it's 100 mile mark, women on average. Again, this is an average.

Yeah.

So it's not saying that the top athletes, top women athletes are faster than the top men athletes. What we're saying is, on average, the average pace between women running these distances and men, we see that women are actually faster at this extreme distance of 195 miles. And the way we got to 195 miles was we had continued to see this closure of the gender pace gap. So at 5k, men on average are about 18% faster than women. And then that that difference between men and women continues to get smaller and smaller as the distance gets longer. So at marathon distance, it's only about 11% faster. Men are. And it continues down this Trend to the 100 mile mark, which is where we had planned on ending this analysis. At 100 miles, men and women are almost same. Men are just 0.25% faster than women. And so we thought to ourselves, I wonder if we stretch this out further. Doesn't become a point that this trend line actually becomes in favor of women. And, and that happens at around 195 miles.

Wow.

Now the unique part about this is, you know, the, the critic can say, well, that's really extreme. Not a lot of people are running 200 mile races. And we agree with that. And so, you know, we wanted to see where this trend line changed. And that's the number. But ultimately there's some assumptions that can be made with this as well. Obviously the cohort of women at 195 miles is pretty small. The cohort of men is small too, but it's significantly larger than women at those distances. So the women that aren't running those distances tend to be very elite level. And some of the men, although they are very elite level as well, there are still more participatory signups in the male category, we believe, and in the female category at those distances. And so there are some people that maybe bring down the male average time. And so we really wanted to look at what these numbers look like. So we went one step further even and broke this into quartile breakdown as well as at every 10%. And so what we found was somewhat interesting is at this distance, over 195 miles, in the elite, very most elite, the top 25% of those runners, women and men, are actually only one second apart.

Wow.

And, and then between the 25 to 50% quartile, men actually do have some advantage. They're about five seconds faster than women. And then the, the second half of the, of that analysis, from 50% up to 100, women do have quite an advantage over men. And so overall women have this slight advantage, you know, 0.6% faster at 195 miles. But I think the data is just an interesting anecdote to show that at a certain distance there has become a leveling of the playing field.

Yeah.

And men and women's bodies are really fairly equal to be able to take on these endeavors.

Wow. That is just fascinating. Thank you for kind of giving us how you went through that whole process that is fantastic. I'm recently I joined the faculty at a new university and I'm going to be in charge of a lot of dissertations. So I'm going to be maybe getting you as a consultant in if we have some big data kinds of things. I loved your whole thought process with that. So next thing is that. And you kind of made reference to this in terms of people signing up and things along those lines like that participation, the bullet point, the finding was participation's increased by 345% in the last decade from around 137,000 and some change to 611,000 folks and 17.8 times over the last 23 years. So they're like we're, we're kind of at the zenith at this point of ultra runners, is that right?

Yeah, I mean, there's never been more ultra runners than there are now. I mean, these numbers are still fairly small. I mean, 611 participants participations around the world in 2018, it's still fairly small when you compare it to marathons and half marathons and 5Ks and 10Ks. But what's interesting is that ultra run seen a steady growth pattern for the last 23 years and the last 10 has been particularly strong, especially when participation in traditional distances has tapered off and even declined in the last few years. And so, you know, people are interested in this board. I think there's this idea that after you've done a marathon, there's got to be another challenge out there. Or maybe they want a superlative challenge that they can, you know, take that Instagram photo of running 100 mile race or something they can brag about their friends. And so I think that there's more people starting to participate in these events that aren't necessarily elite level ultra runners that are doing it because it's a passion. It's maybe someone that wants to try the next thing that's harder than a marathon, or they want to get on the trail instead of the road and they do a race. And a lot of these, you know, these trail races tend to be ultra. So maybe they're 35k or 50k or whatever it might be. And so I think that there's some interest in people just doing something that's a new experience. You know, part of this data also found that people tend to travel more for ultra races than any other races. So people are looking at these experiences as something worth traveling to a foreign country for or going somewhere far beautiful. You know, a lot of these races take place in gorgeous wilderness areas. And so I think there's some motivation behind that to experience this and not just do it for the race.

Yeah, that's a few things I want to react to with that. I think that is so true. It's, it's my own personal experiences. I mean, I very much enjoyed. I felt running was like one of those few things that was like an athletic activity I could do with my kids. I have a son and a daughter that are both runners cross country and distance and marathon and whatnot. And they, you know, it was like I could run 5Ks with them, you know, when they were kids, and then we could, you know, do 10ks or 10milers or half marathons or whatever. You know, I wouldn't go out and play soccer with my kids, you know, with. On a soccer team or something. So it's really, it's kind of nice that way. And it's also such a nice, you know, a lot of these, like, starter races and stuff are for a good cause or they're during a holiday. You know, I've got more Turkey Trot T shirts than I can count kind of a thing with my kids, so. But I think your point is also well taken about distance races. I don't, I hope to goodness there's no, like, I guess maybe bad waters is a lot of on asphalt and melting asphalt. But, you know, it's nice to be in nature. It's nice to be other than the trip and fall issues with some trails. But there is something very different with, you know, a person's mechanics, with a person's experience of being on a. Even if you might suffer with altitude or something in a high Colorado run that is just so different than plodding along in downtown Chicago at a half marathon or whatever kind of 5k even at that point. And then your other point, like, some of the things I've seen on documentaries of some of these, like, I, I can't remember, I can't name them off the top of my head, but some of these, like, there's like a high altitude ultra somewhere in India, you know, that that's in the Himalayas. There's some. Or, you know, Nepal or someplace. And there's there's some like what, like, you probably know these might way better than I do, but there's like some like super ultra distances that are all done in deserts, including, you know, the traditional, what we think of as like hot deserts as well as the desert of Antarctica. So. And people try and do all four of those, you know, within the span of a year or season or what have you. So there's a certain, you know, exoticness, I guess, that goes along with those, you know, those kinds of venues and, you know, adds to the excitement, if not the, you know, the mystery or the intrigue of those as well.

Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree. I think that's one of the main factors that's fueling the growth of this sport and the continued interest in it is that the races are fun. You know, I mean, they, they're not as focused. I mean there's obviously people that want to win these races, but a lot of these races aren't as focused on the competition and they're more focused on the experience. I mean, a lot of these races tend to have average paces that look very close to walking. I mean, you know, an average pace of 15 to 20 minutes per mile, even though it's on trail and it's uneven terrain or maybe it's really steep terrain, is still a lot of walking compared to, you know, the performance that you expect at a marathon or a half marathon where you're looking at people who are running, I mean, with these elite level athletes are running under five minute miles for a marathon. And so being able to compete in a marathon with those people who are running four and a half minute mile is a really tall order. Trying to compete in the marathon, someone running 7 minute mile is a feat that is superhuman, you know, but being able to sign up for one of these ultra races and say, you know what, I can walk when I need to, I can take 20 minutes off at the aid station and lay down, I can eat a piece of pizza.

Right.

You know, they're just a little bit more accessible. Even though the distances seem unfathomable, it's like this is more of a community than competition. And I think that drives some of the participation in these events.

Yeah, I did my first organized ultra distance thing, I hate to call it a race or a competition was the Chicago 5050 and it was along the Chicago lakefront. And you sort of had this option. You could either be on an asphalt trail, which was there, or like a lot of other people, not just the runners, there was grass to the side and you could kind of, you know, give your legs and feet a little bit of a break with that. And it, it was probably the least competitive, you know, quote unquote race that I've ever been a part of. I mean, you know, people are, whoever's like around you, like checks in with you, you know, hey, how you Doing or says something supportive, and then you, you know, find yourself starting doing that with others. I mean, people do that in marathons and stuff, you know, as well, too, and 5Ks, of course, but there's just. I. I can't quite find the words to describe it. But there is something that's. That is just qualitatively different on a trail run or on a. On an ultra run that, you know, that you just don't necessarily see in it. I think you use the. The proper word. Community. There's just sort of like this communal feel that, you know, if someone tweaks something or gets hurt, someone's, you know, gonna stop. They're not gonna, you know, like, just say, oh, tough stuff, pal. You know, so it's a very interesting phenomenon that way. All right, well, let me get back to. We'll go qualitative, quantitative. Qualitative, quantitative. So participants, in terms of Women's involvement, that 23% of participants are female compared to just 14%, maybe back in the early days, 23 years ago. So thoughts on that? Any assumptions as to. Other than what we've already kind of talked about, but do you have any other thoughts about the increase of women getting involved?

Yeah, I mean, again, there's never been more women in ultra running than there are now. It's still a really low percentage. I mean, when you compare it to marathons and half marathons and traditional distances, where you're seeing over 50%, 60% women, more women participants than men in some traditional distances. So 23%, still a really low number, but it's the highest it's ever been. And so I think that's interesting. More women are getting involved in endurance sports. I think more women are starting to understand that they're really built for this. It's not a man's sport. You know, there's a lot of articles out there about the physiology behind why women are better at endurance sports than men. And there's a lot of data that supports it that, you know, women have more fat in their body, which is a longer burning fuel source than men. Women are mentally tougher. There's a bunch of studies that have been done recently on the mental fortitude of women and that really goes into this. I think there's less ego in women. And again, you know, running an endurance race is about the mindset. And so, you know, I think that there's some really interesting reasons why women are suited for this kind of sport. But also, I think, you know, women are starting to have more interest in it when they see other women doing it.

Sure.

I think that this trend will continue to happen as more women help get other women involved in the sport. And honestly, pieces like this that really show that women are on an even playing field with men I think is a motivator as well to show that they can really compete at an elite level and not just against the other women.

Yeah, it's an interesting, it kind of raises a cause and effect thing of what we were just talking about with a sense of community, you know, and you know, do more women get drawn in because they have a sense of community with it and that's appealing, or do we have more sense of a community because more women are involved in it? You know, so it's an interesting sociological as well as physiological kind of perspective. I had Alex Hutchinson on a few episodes back who wrote a fantastic book called Endure wherein he talks a lot about, he talked about breaking the two hour marathon and Kipchoge and he talks about ultra distance runners and other kinds of endurance athletes and stuff and, and raises some of those same kind of physiological, psychological kinds of aspects to it as well. So it's nice to counterbalance that with some good epidemiological kinds of data that you guys have compiled. An interesting, again, kind of a clickbait interesting kind of headline is that you also found that ultra runners have never been slower across distance, gender and age group. In 96, the minute per mile was running around 11:35. And in more recent you found it's increased to 13:16 as an average minute per minute mile. So do you think that's because of more trails, more involvement or what? What are your theories and theses on that?

Well, there's a couple of assumptions here. And again, this trend is also seen at traditional distance races. Over the past few years, runners have honestly never been slower. I think part of this goes back to more people are signing up for these events to participate rather than compete.

Yeah.

And so there's more, there's more amateurs, I think, doing these kind of races than just elite level professional athletes that are getting paid. There's also this idea that again, it's not for the competition, it's for the experience. And so some people, I think the average runner is out there doing it for enjoyment.

Yeah.

And so maybe they're not focused on their pace. Also more people are doing it. And when more people do anything, there tend to be more people in the middle than at the elite level. And so as participation increases in any sport, there's going to be metrics of performance are going to come down somewhat. And again, I want people listening to understand we're not saying that the elite pros are slower. Obviously those people who are getting paid to run and have new technology and are innovating and training hard, their times are getting faster. Just like we saw with the two hour marathon being broken.

Right.

But what we're saying is the average runner is getting slower. And I think a lot of that really has to do with more participation and more people participating in a participatory mindset. And so, you know, what's interesting though is again, it's like we're seeing amateurs and everyday athletes signing up for these events that 15 years ago maybe were thought really fringe and gosh, I can't run a 50 mile race or 100 mile race now. It's something that's more accessible and it's like, yeah, you know, I ran a half marathon, maybe I'll try a 50. And so that's like a really big mindset jump to be able to even take that on. And I think that's what's exciting is once you get more everyday athletes involved in a sport like this, it's when it can really set on fire. It's not just for those elites anymore.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like probably another answer to the question of slower is because of me. I feel like I'm personally responsible for dragging down the average time 100.

I'm on the same boat.

I don't know, man. So I think, you know, also there's the aspect of I finished a X, a 30 mile or a 50 miler, a 50k or whatever rather than I won, you know, bad water or something. So, so, you know, and I'm old enough to know that that's how marathons used to be. You know, 30 years ago, you know, if you finished a marathon, it's like you summited Everest or something. Something, you know, sort of like, wow, really, you know, and you know, my, how things have changed, you know, from nutrition and exercise and, and training and training clubs and groups and obviously, as you know, you know, shoes and equipment and things like that. So that's, that's very cool. So

you also, on that point, Chris, I think you're right. I think, I think, you know, when people talk about marathons, it's not I finished anymore. It's I ran it under four hours or I qualified for Boston or whatever their goal is. The goal seems to not be the finish anymore. It seems to be a time. And I think ultramarathons are not there yet. There hasn't seen a time. They're still the I finished is the goal. And I think that that is a large part of the mindset that goes into ultra running, that it really is about, you know, the experience is the journey and it's not the time that you're finishing this race in. And so I think that that's a really interesting psychology behind the people that are doing these races compared to people that are maybe still doing half marathons and marathons and they're really focused on that performance aspect of it.

Yeah, point well taken. Yeah, that's good. I think that is good. If people also, because things happen, I mean, sometimes early on in a race or a run, even just training, you know, it's going to be a good day or a bad day. And sometimes, you know, you tweak something, you go, okay, well this is dumb. If I'm going to, you know, continue to do this, I'm going to, you know, inflame the problem and mess myself up for my race next month or something. So I think there's also maybe a little bit when you don't have that elite level. I'm doing this as my job. You know, this is the key. You know, I want to, I'm an Olympic level or I'm a. Whatever level of whatever it is that I'm doing. People, I think can cut themselves a little slack and, you know, not have that balance of, you know, being able to return to, to run and do things at a level that, you know, is less, I guess, in a sense less, less competitive like we've talked about, and more rational and I think really psychologically healthier as well too.

So I 100% agree with that. I mean, I think the psychology behind why people do races at all, I think is a really interesting question. And you know, in a life where we're inundated with stress and technology and screens and never ending performance at work, you know, it's like, are we doing these runs because we want more stress and we're focused on a number, or are we doing these runs to relax? Are we doing these events to get away and disconnect and reconnect with nature and being outside? So I like the aspect of it that it's about finishing and not about a time because it really changes the whole mindset of training. It changes the mindset of race day and it becomes more about the experience and the community than it does about your personal performance. And that time that maybe you don't hit and then are you disappointed and now you got to do another one. And like, it's like a rabbit hole that I think that if you focus so much on some sort of KPI, this is running, this is for fun, this is supposed to be enjoyable. We shouldn't turn it into some metric driven thing every day. We're focused on what our watch says and what the Garmin says and where our GPS is taking us and, and how many feet in elevation we ran or whatever the metric is. And it's like, why don't we just go outside and try to enjoy it a little. And I like that about trail running. I like that about the ultra community. And obviously there's people in the ultra community that look at it as very high performance, but I think we're seeing more people get into it that aren't as focused on that.

Yeah, that's a point well taken again. So back to some stats. Runners improved their pace in their first 20 race and then the pace tends to stabilize out from that. So as people get more into it, they start to have better improvement. Their endurance increases and their speed increases. Or what do you think about that?

Yeah, so like anything, I think ultra running takes experience to get good at it. I think it's very different than running the 5k or 10k where you know, your focus is longevity and not technically maybe pace per mile. And so I think that there's some things that happen as people get more of these under their belt that they learn how to fuel better, you know, what to eat, what not to eat, learn how to utilize their aid stations and their rest stops. They, they, you know, there's, it's more than just getting faster every time. It's really about being efficient and how you can go longer rather than faster. And so, you know, maybe that actually means a slower pace than, and you can do that over a longer period of time than a faster pace that you burn out quicker. And so I think that there's a lot of learning and I think that's why this metric was interesting. It really shows that over time people get better at the sport, which is to be expected obviously, but it is interesting then, then at some point it basically plateaus off and there isn't much more improvement after you've kind of figured out how to be efficient within these races.

Yeah, that's, that's very good. Yeah, because you really, you do spend that time for me at least, and maybe this generalizes to others. I spend that time really kind of paying attention to what's going on. I mean there's, there's also times where I feel like it's a very meditative process. Like I have a little. I don't. I usually rarely run with my phone and I have. But I do have like this little recorder that I carry that's very light and just slides right in a pocket because I'll be like, you know, halfway through with my run, short or long, and I'll just my. I'll have a head full of ideas, you know, so I need to. I can't write them down, so I just like, you know, dictate them into my little recorder and then I write them down once I get home. But I find it such a. I pay attention to my breathing, I pay attention to my heart rate, I pay attention to, you know, all these little things that I have the time to do that and I have the headspace to do that. And then kind of if everything's running efficiently in my engine, then, you know, it's. I feel like it's almost like this creative, meditative, restorative kind of time too. It's not a. It's not a grind like when I've done like long distance training routine runs and stuff. I'll tell my wife, I said, you know, it's not like I have to run today, it's that I get to run today. You know, it's a privileged kind of thing to be able to do. And I, you know, I kind of honor it that way as well too, which is a much different, you know, to me that's the non competitive mindset at least is how I experience it and express it. So yeah, it's really a horse of a different color, as they say.

So I agree. I think that there's, I mean, we've talked about it already, but I think that it's that non competitive mindset that you're talking about that it's a joy. You know, I think, I think these long distance runs can be a lot for people. You know, I think that they can be meditative, I think they can be the disconnect. I think they can be physically challenged, I think they can be mentally challenging. And so I think you get a lot out of a long distance run that maybe you're not to going when you're gonna go to the gym and hit the treadmill for three miles and try to work on your pace or you're doing sprint work. You know, it's like you get to be out. I live in Colorado and so a lot of my runs, especially my longer ones, take me out into the mountains and on the trails. And so for me, it's cathartic. You know, it's like I get to be out in nature and you know, what if halfway through I decide I'm gonna walk for 10 minutes or I'm gonna walk the rest of it? You know, it's like that's completely okay because again, it's still that experience of me being outside and getting away from my cell phone and getting away from the stress at home. And so it's like I just, I. That's what I love the most about doing these longer races. You just stop focusing a lot of times on those metrics. Yeah, I feel like were really important to me when I was running marathons and half marathons and training for those shorter races. I just as like I've left the walks behind. I don't even myself. Yeah, I just have an idea of where I'm gonna go feeling good. Maybe I go longer. If I'm not, maybe I cut it off shorter. So it's like, it's very. It's. It changes. So how I'm feeling. Instead of me feeling like I have to do this in this amount of time and there's stress surrounding it.

Yeah, that's a really good point about the, the whole thing with the watch too, because I, my, my kids, for. I don't know if it's Father's Day or birthday or something, got me a T shirt that said, if you find me laying along the roadside, please turn off my garment. And I think it was, you know, because I was, you know, and again, how I. How we started off our conversation, you know, being very data focused and metrics are cool and all that and. But you're right, there are those times where it is, it's. It's a different kind of thing, a qualitatively different kind of thing to just say, I'm not going to wear my watch because I know where I'm running and I'm not going to set a pr and it's just I want to go out and do that. I was training for 100k this last summer and I was in this forest preserve and I started off like super early in the morning, like four in the morning kind of a thing because I needed to get a lot of miles in that day. And I knew I'd be running literally from dawn to dusk. And it was so such a different, wonderful feeling. Like, you know, it's same areas that I'm totally familiar with, but I'd been running, you know, time and time again in the daylight and different days of the week and different times of the day, but in daylight. And it was just so nice to kind of see, you know, this. This trail wake up, so to speak, you know, and there's different bird songs during the course of my run, over the course of hours changing, and to see the arc of the sun, you know, going in directions that were different than what they were in the spring when I had started, you know, this training and stuff. And it's just, you know, that you just. You just don't get that with 5k training or something. Maybe you do if you overtrain, but it was just. It is a. Almost. Not to sound corny, but I mean, just a very, you know, spiritual almost kind of thing. A different kind of way different kind of vibe than, you know, corralling yourself up in a, you know, half marathon thing, you know, in Dallas, downtown, again, downtown Chicago.

So, yeah, I agree. I mean, it's ethereal. I think you. I think that you're not wrong to call it spiritual. It's like. I think that there's something that happens when you're out there for these longer distances that, to me, affects a change that is more important than the running itself. And that's what I enjoy the most about it. I mean, it's like it really is a healing experience to go run for 10 hours and not feel the pressure to do it in some sort of specific way, you know, and that, to me, is. It's freedom. It's like, I don't have to do this in a set amount of time. I don't have to do a set course. I can go out there and I can be me and enjoy the experience. And honestly, I think that that's. That's the beauty of endurance sports, is it really, it forces you to get outside of your normal comfort zone, and your brain goes to some new places that you normally don't give it time to go to. And I don't think people allow that time for themselves. You know, people don't read as much. People don't spend time away from technology as much as they used to. And I think by getting into a sport like this, it kind of forces you to have to, because you can't carry all that stuff with you, and you don't want to at some point. So, I mean, we could go on and on about that, but again, I think that that's the romance behind an alter race. And again, I think that's also why this sport is seeing more participation. And one stat we don't actually have in the study that we're going to do. A follow up is this metric that we're calling obsession and which is basically a metric of showing how many people do multiple ultra runs a year compared to how many people do multiple 5Ks or 10Ks or marathons a year. And ultra runners, actually what we found is ultra runners actually had a significantly higher percentage do more races per year than any other distance. And so there's this obsession with ultra racing once you start doing it that it becomes like a need and it becomes something that these runners really dig their teeth into and do multiple of these even more so than people just doing 5Ks. And that I think is a really telling metric when a 5k something you could do every weekend, right. You could do it without really training for the most part you. They're cheap, a lot of them are free. And yet people are still doing multiple ultra runs more than people are doing multiple 5Ks in the.

And that goes.

I think that's a really interesting.

Does that cross cut. That's. That. That was actually good, good segue because that was one of the next things I wanted to ask you about. So does that. Do you know if that cross cuts with the ultra, the elite as well as the non elite runners or is it just the. The.

We, we looked at the cohort overall. So we didn't look at elite versus non elite. But I mean just to give you some examples in. Let me see where I've got this. In 2018, 40, I think it was 41%. Yeah. So in 2018, 41% of participants in ultras ran more than one a year. And in 96 it was only 14%. So many. So the growth of people doing multiple runs a year is really interesting. And then we looked at how many people do one race, more than one race a year, more than two races a year, more than three races a year. So people that did more than two races a year went up from 7% in 96 to almost 25% in 2018. Three races a year, up to almost 10% and so on. And these numbers at 5k are slightly under the 5k is the next most obsessive category. But like at the marathon and half marathon distance, the numbers are significantly smaller. Like less than 15% of people do two marathons a year, yet 41% of people are doing more than one ultra race a year. And so it's really interesting to see that the people doing these ultra races are obsessed with them. And that's the word we're using. Obsessed. But they obviously find something that they really desire in this and because of that they do more than one, more than two, upwards of ten races a year. And so it's really. Wow, it's interesting the psychology that's going on want in. In the minds of people that are doing these extremely hard endurance events.

Well, I know you, you also talk in there about, you know, you have a global database. You've looked at races and countries and stuff everywhere and you give some stats about like, you know, South Africa's got the, you know, the fastest average pace, followed by Sweden. So it's not warm versus cold because there's two, two very different ones, although just varying by, you know, less than two minutes. And then I think Germany was maybe the third fastest. So to your point also, it's not like there's a 5K, you know, just about, probably within an easy drive of Chicago for me, you know, just about any, any weekend that I want. There's not an ultra within an easy drive of me any weekend I want. So these folks that are doing multiple wins over the course of a calendar year are probably, you know, needing to travel, you know, like further than a car drive, you know, like an airplane ride or maybe an airplane ride, you know, across a major ocean or something. So any, any thoughts about like, like again, just from an armchair perspective of what I see and what I read documentaries and books and magazines about, you know, some of these, you know, races, ultra races and again, if they're not, if they're in nature then, you know, obviously they have to be in a place where that, that nature and those trails are available like the, the Swiss Alps or you know, what have you places in the uk. But any thoughts about that too with, with countries and running and like, do you know, like what, what country has the most ultras in a year or anything? Did you look at those kinds of factors?

Yeah.

So

first off, pace wise, one of the things this, this stat on who the fastest nations are, I think is really interesting.

Yeah.

One of the reasons why South Africa is at the top of this list is they have a very strong ultra racing tradition. They actually have the biggest ultra race in the world called Comrade. Last year there was over 25,000 people who signed up for it.

Wow.

This year they have opened the registration to 27, 500.

Wow.

So it is, I mean it's massive when you compare that to something like Western state, which is one of the biggest races in the U.S. i think last year had like seven or 800 or you know, the bad Water or the Heart? The Hard Rock, I think only had 250 or something like that last year. And these are the races you hear about in the U.S. you know, South Africa is opening up this race this year to 27,000 people. I am embarrassed.

I've never heard of that. Good golly. Wow.

Yeah, it's massive. And then there's other races too. You know, there's the Tour de Mont Blanc that has about 5,000 runners a year. And so some of these countries have traditions in it. You know, I think one of the reasons why South Africa obviously is fastest is we did not separate trail from road ultra races. And that Comrades Marathon is a road ultra. And so paces are expected to be faster on a road ultra than a trail ultra. Yeah, it's really hard to, to separate the two kinds of races. The databases don't tend to tell you if it's trailer roads. You have to go through manually and know whether each race. And with 5 million, 5 million, it takes a while. So. So that, that data point is a little skewed by South Africa, but I think, you know, countries like Sweden and Germany, they've got a lot of wilderness areas that got a lot of mountainous land and trails. You know, in Germany's prime example, they're very close to Switzerland, to France, to Italy. And so with all those nations, there's a strong community of ultra racing and ultra runners. And so it's very easy for someone in Germany to go down to Mont Blanc and race in a race, maybe in France or go down in Switzerland or Austria and do a race. And so there's more accessibility to, I think some of these countries as well. Which also goes to the idea we talked about a little bit earlier. We do have this stat that more people travel abroad for these ultra races. I mean, over 10%, 10.3% of ultra runners are willing to travel abroad for an ultra race. When you Compare this to 5k, only 0.2% of people travel abroad for a 5k. So I think again, this goes back to this experience. People are willing to go further for a race. You know, maybe people are willing to fly to South Africa to do Comrades because it's the biggest race. Many people are willing to fly to France and do the Mont Blanc race. You know, I think that there's some, some of these superlative races that people are willing to travel to because it's also an experience. You get to be in the mountains or you get to be part of this massive 25, 25,000 person race.

Yeah.

Or you get to go to somewhere really unique. Like you mentioned Antarctic. You know, there's an ultra race down at the South Pole and, or, you know, running through the deserts of Morocco. I think that there's some adventure aspect that, that really makes these races interesting to people. But also, you know, we talked about obsession. If you love to travel and you love adventure, maybe there's a good, you know, you're into mountaineering and maybe the next year you do an ultra race in Morocco and then next year maybe you trek down to the South Pole and, and part of it's organized in some sort of alter race fashion. So there's some support. And you're not just doing it yourself.

Right.

I mean, there are these reasons why people are willing to travel for these races and I think it's because they're really unique experiences.

That's a great point. Gosh, it's giving me the itch. So that's really a good point. Hopefully listeners as well too. So did you do anything to factor in with the database? And maybe, I don't know know how, you know, I'm sure different races parse and collect data differently. But like with DNFs, or did you address those or were they just not even part of the database or.

Yeah, so DNFs were cut out of the database. Okay. This is really hard to track DNS, obviously with in regards to pace. A lot of our data is based on pacing. And so, you know, in an ultra racist part, if someone drops out at mile 60 or mile 80 to really have a reliably recorded time of when they stop or where they stopped. And so it would be really difficult to add DNS as far as pace goes.

Yeah.

And so we, we had cut DNS out of the, out of the database to start.

That makes sense. Yeah, because it'd be, it'd be an interesting sort of like case study or something like that to see, you know, is there certain point or, you know, I know that there, you know, again, people talk about the, in marathons, like hitting the, you know, proverbial wall or Heartbreak Hill in Boston, you know, there might be certain areas that are a little more tricky or treacherous and that compounded by the fact that, you know, someone's been running for the last 10 hours when they hit it. And I could see as being, you know, kind of crazy.

So I'm going to make a note of this, Chris. I think that this is actually really interesting and maybe do an analysis of, of which race distance has the most. Yeah, I have an assumption that will be surprised that it isn't ultras. But I don't want to, you know, put any money on that. But I assume that maybe more people drop out of marathons than they do ultras. And again, I think it goes back to maybe this mindset and it's a participation and not based on this need to hit a certain time. But I think that that would be really interesting and I'm going to do some research on that and I'll follow up up with you. And we have some numbers but I think that would be really interesting to see which category races or maybe even we open it up to multiple sports and which activities that most people that drop out. If there's a way to better, better track that I think it'd be interesting.

That would. Yeah. Well, cool. Yeah, keep me posted. We'll keep our, our listeners up to date with those kinds of things as well too. So I just, I, I want to thank you for being so generous with your time. I don't want to take all day but I could do like a five part episode, you know, five hour long episodes with you. So for folks that maybe have kind of been stimulated by our conversation and would really like to, you know, see some of the. And I also should say, I should have said this in the beginning. I apologize that your graphics and the data representation, not just, you know, the work that you did but but also the way that you communicate it in the report. Kudos. It's really terrific. It's sort of again, I've tried to. It's one thing to be able to have reports and it's always nice to pull stuff out of tables and give it more graphical oomph and easier reader and user understanding of it. So I think your report has definitely done that. So if listeners want to learn more about you or your company or get a copy of the report, what are the best ways for them to be able to do any of that?

Sure. Yeah. Check us out. Run repeat.com you know, obviously check us out for some of our reports. If you go to run repeat.com news you'll see all of our studies and reports that we published. This report is@runrepeat.com state of the of ultra running and that's 8-of-ultra-running. But if you just search run repeat state of ultra running in Google, you should be able to find it pretty easily. We'd love feedback. You know, my email is at the bottom of this post. You can reach out to me personally. You know, we try to make these studies accessible to the public so we don't fill them with, you know, all sorts of academic type of statistical analysis. And we, you know, I did my master's degree here at Colorado State University and the things I wrote back then probably are illegible for me to actually even comprehend anymore. And so we want to make these studies interesting to everyone reading them. Not only the data wonks and the people that are really data minded, but also just your everyday reader. And so we try to make it simple while also as in depth as possible. And so yeah, check out the, check out the study. Go back and check out the state of running if you're interested in more traditional distance races as well and let us know what your thoughts are. I'd love to chat with you and go over any of these findings if you're interested in them.

That's great. I really appreciate your openness to that, Paul. Openness in the sense of having done this because I think it's really honestly a public service. It's fascinating. I think, you know, even if you're not like, if listeners aren't as nerdy and geeky as I am or maybe as you are as well, it's still a fascinating report to be able to take a look at. And I just found, you know, very compelling. And again, a tip of the hat to the yeoman's work that you and your colleagues did to put it together. I just, I am blown away by the sheer vast amount of data, the proverbial drinking from the fire hydrant and how you've been able to distill it, make sense of it, use good graphical representations of the data. Just, it's, it's like it, it's not anything I've ever seen and certainly that in the running area arena and the ultra in particular. So is there going to be a state of ultra running 2021 or kind of what's, what's next in the world of data analytics and or data athletics, I think we should coin that word, that phrase. So what's, what's next on your horizon? Are you just taking a breather and running or anything else with.

Well, I think that those are all great questions. Who knows what the next one is? I mean we'd like to do a state of triathlon going on in triathlon.

Okay.

Obviously I think we'll update state of ultra as additional years of data come in to see if these trends are continuing. We're actually, we just hired a few more data analysts on the team so we can continue to do this kind of work. You know, I really, really appreciate the gratitude for this piece. I mean, this piece took us about five months, and like you said, drinking from the fire hose. I mean, there's a lot of data we didn't include in this that we have just because it was so overwhelming. We had to end at some point and figure out what our core key findings are. And we ended up with, I don't know, 10, 12 key findings. And so we could have had. We could have had 20 or 30 key findings. And I think. I think it's often that, you know, run, repeat. We have the ability to do this. We have the freedom to look into the sports we're passionate about and, you know, take the time that it demands to do these analyses as well. You know, And I think what's coming next is, like I said, state of triathlon, possibly, you know, the Olympics are coming up, and I think we're interested in a lot of Olympic type of analysis on, you know, the sports that we'll be watching come July. Obviously, we're interested in some social aspects as well. We're doing a piece right now on racism in football. So racism and not. Not in American football, but racism and society and football around the world.

Wow.

And what that looks like. And we're interested in some of these social aspects. We just published a piece on Russian doping in track and field events. And so we're gonna possibly do a piece on American doping issues in track and field and a comparison of Russia and America. And so we're kind of all over the place. You know, we've got a team, about six or seven of us on this project to do these data type pieces. And we're growing that team in 2020 to add a few more people. And I'm really excited to see what the team's coming up with. And this is just the tip of the iceberg, I think, as if you start following run, repeat now, I think you'll see more and more of these types of pieces coming out that have some really interesting findings that have to do with sport, but also society and psychology and, you know, larger issues that interest us here.

That's great. I mean, to shift gears out of running for a second, you know, there is a very much a politicalization, obviously, of, like, the Olympics, you know, and state pride, so to speak, and those kinds of things. But then also, you know, when you think about, you know, what oftentimes professional athletes in sports, like American football, the NFL or basketball. Basketball, you know, representing social issues, you know, on the field. Or on the court sometimes in ways, you know, that are, you know, quite provocative and very newsworthy. So it's, I tip my hat to you again, the whole racism and football, soccer is a fascinating thing. So we should, you know, I presume that you and I are going to be, you know, becoming BFFs, you know, very shortly after this. But, but I have some students that might be able to get some dissertation work collaboratively with you as well, too.

Yeah, send them our way. I've been through those programs as well and maybe I can glean something from them Again. It's been a while since I've been in an academic setting, but I think it's always good to work with those people that are really interested and passionate enough to be educating themselves and doing these in depth academic studies. You know, one thing, if there's people out there that are interested in the NBA, we've got an amazing NBA basketball writer on our team that has done a lot of analysis of, you know, height evolution and salary evolution of the NBA as well as, you know, issues that have to go on with, you know, the Euroleague versus the NBA. And so we're kind of covering most sports right now. And you know, if you're someone out there that loves data and has an interesting idea, I'd love to hear from you and see you, you know, if it can work in our schedule to look at the sport that you're most interested in.

Great. Good. Well, thank you for that offer. I suspect that you will have some folks getting your email. I'll put put this in the show notes and as well make it easier for folks as well too. So. Well, Paul, again, thank you so much for your time today. I've so enjoyed our conversation and look forward to updates and we'll post those on our website and social media as well too as you have new things coming out, new reports as well, too, and we can, you know, have you back and do a round two on some of the new findings you have with the new studies that you're involved with.

Of course, yeah, I'm happy to come back and yeah, appreciate it. Thanks to all the listeners out there. I know we maybe went over a little bit on time, but I think it was a fun conversation and I'd love to chat with you again sometime. Chris.

That's great. I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much, Paul.

All right, we'll talk to you soon.

Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot llc. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout. To learn more, stop by our website at lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take confidence of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks and until next time.