Topaz Adizes on How a Single Conversation Can Change a Relationship Forever

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the nonprofit I founded, the center for Global Initiatives. The center is an all volunteer organization so there are no salaries and thus all tax deductible donations can go to the work. While our key country partner is in Tanzania, our work is global and generally focused in the areas of education and healthcare. We also help others to get their nonprofits started or augment others project based initiatives. It's our goal to open source humanitarian intervention and to help make it easier for others to do more good in the world. We are proud to have been ranked a great nonprofit every year since 2011 and to have achieved a Platinum level rating by Guidestar Links. In this episode's show, notes will take you to published articles on our outcomes, a number of helpful tools and downloadable resources which are all free always. Please Visit us at centerforglobalinitiatives.org and be sure to watch our video at patreon.com drchhrisstout to learn more. Thanks. Welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. Have you ever found yourself in the presence of someone you loved dearly and had nothing to say? The silence not indicative of your care for the other, nor your desire to connect with them. And yet there were no words you could grasp to articulate the depth or quality of your connection to them. Or have you found yourself in the same looped pattern of conversation with someone you love, feeling as though you were treading the same path repeatedly, but it was simply exhausting, or even worse, it was deteriorating your connection. Have you found yourself so in love that you want to forge an even deeper connection but can't find the tools or the experiences that you need to build that next, greater version of what you sense is possible? Have you questioned the value of intimate relationships or what intimacy really means? How does it affect your life and how do you build it? How do you maintain it? What, on a more basic level, what's the payoff? We all crave connection, but sometimes we need help getting there. Topaz Adezes offers a guide to having some conversations that can lead to connection in his latest book, 12 Questions for a Guide to Intimate Conversations and Deeper Relationships. After a decade of exploring human emotions and intimacy through more than 1200 conversations in his Emmy award winning experience design studio the Skin Deep, Topaz has been studying and watching humans of all types and in all kinds of relationships simply talk. And it's resonating. Having over 1.2 million followers on TikTok and 900,000 on YouTube. Topaz is a writer, director and experience design architect. He's an Edmund Hillary Fellow and Sundance Skoll Stories Change Fellow. His works have been selected to convince Sundance, IDFA and South by, featured in New Yorker Magazine, Vanity Fair and the New York Times and have garnered an Emmy for New Approaches to Documentary along with two World Press Photo Awards for immersive storytelling and interactive documentary. He is currently the founder and executive director of the Skin Deep. Topaz studied philosophy at UC Berkeley and Oxford University and speaks four languages and currently lives in Mexico with his wife and California children. In this episode, Topaz is going to share what he's learned from witnessing over 1200 conversations and the lessons from his own firsthand experiences. Topaz, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on.

Hey, Chris, thank you so much for having me on.

Absolutely. So perhaps we could maybe start with you walking us through your evolution from a philosophy student to studying relationships with immersive storytelling and interactive documentary.

Yeah, so that thread's an interesting one, I think. I went to study philosophy because I didn't know what I wanted to do and I figured I should learn how to think before I learned to do. And I figured philosophy would be a great training ground to explore thought in the process of critical thinking. So that's why I did that. And then I embarked on, well, I kind of discovered filmmaking because the camera was a door opener. You know, it was a bridge. It was a way into people's lives that I was really interested in exploring, had a lot of curiosity for how other people felt, thought, thought, how they saw the world, what they were experiencing. And I saw that the camera was a, was a door opener. You know, it allowed me entry into the other people's worlds. Do you have a question?

Well, I was just going to say, is it the camera in the sense of video or still photo or both?

Mostly video. That was, you know, because you say, hey, I'd like to ask you some questions and you video and that's the way in. Or I like to, you know, document your life for a Few days. Can I film? And I'm making a film about this subject. Can I. Can I, you know, follow you? Can I be a fly on the wall for a few days?

That's.

That's always. That's always an amazing experience. And the camera allows you to do that.

And are people. What was your experience of people's reaction to that? Were they open to it? Were they. Who is this guy? Or was all the above.

Depends on the project. When I was traveling, was a young man through Australia and India, and I had a camera with me all the time. This is in 2000, 2001. You know, it's a little bit more rare then to have. We didn't have camera phones, and digital cameras were new then, so someone there had a camera and was filming. It was a little bit more novel. And. And really, it's ultimately about your own energy and your own presence and your own curiosity that you engage with the other and you create a quick form of trust and safety. And hopefully they open up and sometimes they don't, and then you move on. So that was really a beautiful experience for me to find my way into my passion or my interest in other people. And the door opener was the camera. And so that's what I did for the next 20 years as a filmmaker.

That's brilliant. Did you go in with any kind of agenda or was it just sort of experimental to kind of see what people would spontaneously talk about?

When I was young, traveling, I was just with a camera. There was no agenda, just filming whatever was beautiful or talking to people. But then, you know, as I developed into a filmmaker, then I would start making films. I made a film called Americana, which I filmed around the world in eight different locations, exploring American identity. And that. That obviously had more of an intention, a clear intention in the question I was asking. So, you know, that. That was a good experience for me in terms of interviewing people and realizing that you get what you give and that people model from you. So, for instance, if you're interviewing someone and you want them to relax, the best way to do that is for you to relax versus saying, telling them to relax.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

And realizing that. That the quality of the interview you got was the quality of your presence as an interviewer.

Gotcha.

And so it was all a reflection. So that was an interesting learning.

And is that kind of. What was the seed to then developing an experience? Design studio and can you maybe unpack what. I'm not exactly sure I understand what. What occurs in that or how. How that comes about.

The switch really happened. I was making films, fictional and doc and such. And I had two films, two short films that went to send back Sundance Film Festival, which is the biggest, one of the biggest in the world, definitely in the US Back to back. And then the third year I had a film that went to scan, which is the biggest one in the world.

Right.

And I really felt I was on the road for this, being a film director. And I had a script lined up and everything, a project I'd been working on for years. And I by accident put my film that was a can. It was called Boy, It's a Coming of Age Story on Vimeo without a password. This is 2011. Back then they were, you know, festivals wouldn't take you if, if you screen digitally first.

Oh.

And so I put it by accident without a password just because I was quickly uploading and I forgot and it got picked up as short of the week by Vimeo. And within a week I had four to half, you know, four to 500,000 views.

Wow.

And that really sparked for me the question of what game am I playing? I mean, I think just for your audience to understand, like if there's anything to take away from this conversation of my experience as a 47 year old male who's done my life experience is that the power of questions and that the questions shape the answers and that we often spend so much time, look, you know, and you know, looking for the answer instead of realizing that the answer is shaped by the question. So put your emphasis on the question. And so for me, a lot of my life was always shaped by questions. And so when I had that half a million views, the question I asked myself said, what game am I playing? What? What game am I playing? You know, at that point, I'd been playing the game of modern day cinema, which is to me, modern day meditation. People go into a cinema, they're sitting down for 90 minutes, they have consistent breathing patterns, are focused. It's popular culture meditation. So that was that game. But then when this happened and I said, wow, I got 500,000 views, I got 500,000 people giving, you know, my, their focus and attention to this short film in a week with. And, and how much time, money and energy would that have taken me if I try to get them into theaters?

Right. Wow.

So then it became what maybe there's another game I'm interested in playing which was injecting ideas into the mainstream, presenting ideas into the mainstream, you know, creating, creating conversation, creating thought, injecting ideas in the mainstream. Said that's a really interesting game to play. And if I'm going to play that game, then it's not by making films in theaters.

It's.

It's the digital form. It's digital media. Because, look, I just had half a million people watch this film, and I spent little time on our energy in marketing it. And so that really catalyzed for me a different conversation because I asked a different question.

Wow. And that was. Would you say that was 2011, that that happened?

That was 2011, to start considering that. And so then I looked around. What.

I just. I can't. I mean, that kind of, you know, so to speak, back in. In the day. I mean, things, you know, Vimeo and YouTube and other kinds of channels similar to those two, you know, just are kind of so popular now, and they're ubiquitous. But to have that kind of viewership at that point in time, I think just really, you know, speaks to you. You know, you had. You had hit a nerve. That's amazing.

Yeah, that's happened a few times in my career, and I don't always. I haven't always been prepared to. I call them waves. Like a wave comes and then you surf it, and you make the most of it. So I've had a few waves hit, and I always. I haven't always had a surfboard to ride it, you know, so I've. I've kind of learned from that, and now I see things in waves. And when waves come, then you make the most of it. And before they come, you build a surfboard and you want to ride it as far as you can see where it'll take you. So in 2014, I launched this experience design studio named the Skin Deep. And the reason I did that was because I looked around and I was single, living in New York, and I have a brother who's 16, 16 years younger than I. He was also living in New York, and I just noticed how him and I were engaging in dating completely different. And I was really noticing how the emotional experience of being human was shifting in lieu of the digital technologies that were coming out the way we're communicating.

Mm.

You know, and I thought that was really interesting, and I wanted to explore that. So the, The. The question again, going back to the question with the experience designs, you know, the Skin Deep was, how is the emotional experience of being human shifting in lieu of all these technological changes? How's it shifting? How's it changing? And can we bring some more conscientiousness to that shift? And that's been really what I've been focusing on the last 10 years, 11 years now.

So you saw a difference between, like, was your brother leaning more into the digital dating app kind of thing and you're still keeping it analog or what did you see?

Well, for instance, you know, so here I'm, I'm 37, I was born in 76, so I'm a 37 year old male dating in New York. And I am using OkCupid for the first time, which I was nervous, it was awkward, but I started using it and it was effective in the sense that was very efficient. And you can line up a few dates, but you, after a few messaging of DMs, you would. My inclination was to jump on a phone call and have a conversation. And when you're dating even five, 10 years people younger than you, or, you know, 32, 30, there was a different relationship to a phone call, for instance, a different comfort level. Right. And for the younger generation, even though it was only five years apart or six, you know, 10 years, I noticed. And my brother, 16, 17, for sure, you know, calling somebody was a bit more aggressive than just sending him a text. And I remember I have another friend who at the time was also single, he was living in San Francisco, and he sent me a San Francisco Chronicle article, probably go back and find it, about how calling someone was aggressive and why don't you just be relaxed and just send a text message? And yet for me and him, we're like, that's rude. Yeah, like we're, if we're gonna go on a date, we should talk on the phone first. Right? And I just noticed how we were shifting. Just things were shifting.

Interesting.

And, and, and at one point I had a convers. I was dating a woman. We were six weeks into dating and I was in Idaho working on a script, and she was in Brooklyn. And we were texting back and forth and I said, you know, thank you, love or something. And she said, topaz, when you say the word love in your text, do you really mean love or do you mean love in the vernacular that the English use? Love. You know, just kind of.

Best regards. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Best regards.

Yeah.

I said, oh. So I called her and I had, we had a one hour conversation about the status of our relationship, how we were feeling and what we wanted. And, and I remember at the end of that conversation, what struck me most was that she, she thanked me. She said thank you so much. Because all my previous relationships recently, whenever we talk about our intimacy and our relationships and our feelings, it was over text so thank you for calling me.

Wow.

And what struck me the most was not that she said that, but that was she was 32 and I was 37. We're only five years apart, and yet there was a huge. She was experiencing dating in a profoundly different way than I was. She was experiencing the exploration of human intimacy and emotions and relationship in a different way than I was. And my brother for sure. And my brother, absolutely. You know, he much younger and much more attuned to the code switching that happens with emojis and text messaging and such. And I just saw that we humans are so good at adapting, you know, I mean, you know, you're, you just turned 65. You know, I'm, we're both Tauruses in May. I'm turning 40, 48 on Saturday.

Happy birthday.

But thank you. But you know, I can't imagine operating now without email.

Yeah.

Can you. And you. And you operated. You lived quite a bit of life without email. But can you imagine now working without email?

Yeah. No.

Or cell phones. Right.

And my, my adult 20something son and daughter both feel like, you know, email is just kind of what you do at work, you know, and it's, you know, I've gotten a very clear, loud and clear message that, you know, hey, if you want to get in touch with me, text me, you know, and it's, if the house is on fire, maybe call me. But if you, if you want to send something that I will never look at, email me.

Right, right. I think, I think just, just our, we take, we are so good at adapting as humans that we take things for granted.

Yeah.

Right. I mean, if you go, if you ask your children, they're 20 now, and you ask them if they remember when bottled water came out, when they started selling. I'm not talking about Perrier, I'm talking about just average.

Yeah.

You remember?

Yeah.

But when it came out, you didn't you think, like. I thought it was ridiculous. I thought, why, why are we buying water? We can go to the tap.

Right?

Right. Yeah. Right.

Yeah.

But generations now, they assume it's always bottled.

Yeah. Yeah.

Going to the tap is different, is awkward. It's weird, but it's still. Right. It's. Our behaviors are shifting and yet we call things the same thing. And that also pertains to the word love. The emotional experience of love. It is the same, but it's also different. It's not the same.

Yeah.

You know, do you feel it's.

It's still sort of a volatile four letter word, so to speak, that you know, some people get very anxious or freak out when another partner says it before they do or. What your, what have you seen within your experiences?

Well, I, I lived in Sweden for a time and in Sweden you say ya alska day, which means I love you. Alska means love and they don't say that often. So if someone says yaska day, there's a. At least 20 years ago, maybe it's changed now, but when I lived there 20 years ago and my friends, it changed. It meant something. Mm. I don't think it means the same thing now. It doesn't have the same weight in America. But what I do, what I, you know, but, but I think that love is an emotion, but it's also an act, it's also a practice. And I think we should separate the two. You know, you could feel an emotion of love, but you can also practice the act of loving and love. And I think that's what the book is, helping people is in the practice. It's not always, you know, I'm not only speaking about romantic love, talking about intimate love. I'm talking about connection. I'm talking about that sense of a greater experience of living when you feel connected to other people, when you feel their reflection of your living in their eyes and through communication.

That really resonates with me. Topaz. I. It's, it's been interesting in this, this phase of life that I'm in now. I made a joke to my wife the other day about this, but I find my, like, I still have a very, very busy life, but it was like even crazier when I had the proverbial day job and still everything else, and I didn't have a whole lot of time for friendships. And a lot of the friendships that I had were, you know, kind of, they were never transactional, which is wonderful, but they were kind of business related kind of things, you know, like, well, we're working on this conference or we're co authoring a paper or, you know, we got coordinating our class schedules or, you know, whatever it might have. And now at the place that I'm at and with my age cohort and geographically not being able to see somebody for lunch or something, it's like I schedule phone calls and schedule specific time to be able to catch up with some of these people. And my joke with my wife was that I've noticed that when I, or spontaneously too, when someone calls me or whatever, I have very organically, very naturally started to say I love you to the men in my life. My friendships and my joke to her was I said, you know, I never say that to my women friends that I talk with, but it's kind of become more of this thing that I feel like, you know, we, myself and my, for this point, my male friends have this greater depth of intimacy that I think I probably had. And friendship, platonic stuff that I had with my female friends 10 years ago has now sort of manifest itself and now sort of, like I said, just organically developed in the context of this distance, but now having these specific times where the world is less frenetic, where I can sit down and truly listen, truly get into the depth and the granularity of what I'm hearing from my friend. And I think that has just really caused this almost physiological change of how I physically feel, not emotionally feel like a warmth in my heart kind of thing.

So.

So anyway, just the sidebar.

Why is that? Why. But why is that?

Well, I'm guessing a couple of things. One is you and I joked beforehand with my technological limitations of bandwidth, and I think I've probably had some emotional limitations of bandwidth with friendships. I used to tell this one friend of mine, I said, I am the world's worst friend. Every time he would text me, I'd be in my car, or every time he would call me, I'd be walking into the office or, you know, just. Just really crappy, coincidental kinds of time. And now I don't have that kind of time that those kinds of are generally. I mean, there's always something scheduled, but not as much. And that, you know, I really feel like it's, you know, my, you know, in terms of carrying my weight in water in the relationship, you know, that now I can be able to be with him and talk with him the way that I've missed and that I've had, you know, I've had a desire for that. Bless his heart. He's been, you know, consistently coming back to me. You know, he hasn't said, well, to heck with you, Chris, you know, enough's enough kind of thing. And there's been just sort of, again, for whatever reason, coincidentally, other, you know, prior friendships where it's not just, you know, shooting an email every so often or, you know, liking something on a social media platform that they've posted, but then actually having conversations and scheduling, you know, when we're in each other's towns to, you know, grab coffee or to have dinner or whatever that I just, really, shame on me, was not very good at. You know, I had my hands full with, you Know, younger children and you know, a busy wife and busy life kind of thing. So I just, I feel like it's, my bandwidth has opened. I've had this kind of a pent up emotional demand that I, I guess I didn't really realize that I had. And now I feel so much better, you know, feeling like I'm, you know, kind of making up for that lost time a little bit, you know.

So has that had to do with you changing physical location where you live? Yeah, like being more in nature and further away and even the fact that you have less Internet connection, if you will, has created more time.

Yeah, I think all those, all you're, you're spot on. I think all those things have consistent. I mean, one of the things that one of these, these friends of mine kind of taught me, like he would go, he would go for a walk when we would have our scheduled time to talk and I could kind of hear, you know, he's, he's in New York and I could hear some, you know, urban street noises and things like that. I thought that is a great idea. You know, we never really even talked openly about it, but I thought so then the next time, you know, I just put on my headphones and went for a walk. And where I met, you know, there's plenty of trees and woods and nature. And I think that kind of groundedness, you know, also it, it enhances the experience, so to speak, to be in that setting versus like, oh my gosh, I gotta be somewhere at this certain time or oh my gosh, I've, you know, I'm scrolling email while I'm trying to have a conversation that I'm just with that person in my ears and head and heart, but also I am carrying that person with me in a, you know, bucolic, you know, green, nature filled kind of space. So, yeah, so it's not only that that's a benefit, but it's also subtracts the deficit of, you know, crazy, hectic, frenetic, you know, busy, urban, you know, kinds of stuff on my side. So, so yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's a good presumption and perhaps observation on your part. Very, very good.

Well, we're definitely affected by an environment and I can, I would, I mean, I'm pretty confident that you walking through beautiful trees in nature and seeing the sunlight coming through and birds flying by while you're talking to your friend in New York who's walking down 14th street in the West Village or something and is hearing an Ambulance every three minutes, drive by. Yeah, sure. Braking and cars. And, you know, that person's having a different experience because their attention is divided not just in listening to you, but in being aware of their surroundings, everything around them. And there's so much, so many more vectors to pay attention to, which can be both, you know, give you some endorphin, because there's a lot more going on, but it's also more distracting.

Yeah.

For you. So.

And I'll make an admission, and then I want to. I want to circle back. I want to start talking about the. And. But I'll. I'll give you a little admission here, Topaz. The. You know, for 10 years, I've worked in a variety of different kinds of clinical and academic and various, even business settings. But I always maintained a private practice for about 10 years until our first child was born. And in that time, I have come to realize that when I was in clinical therapy sessions, one on one with people or with families, I was right there, man. I mean, I was. The office next door could have, you know, smoke could have been billowing out of it, and I would have never noticed it or whatever. And I felt that after, like, kind of shuttering my clinical practice to then do other things and be a father and that sort of thing, that part of the loss of that was being so focused on the other. And so the other. And. Because, I mean, I cared about my clients, but it's very different from caring about a friendship or caring about a family member or something like that. And I just start to now feel like bazillion years later with the friendships that I can now have that focal, you know, again, whatever else is kind of going on for me at least, I mean, it's enhanced, like you just said, you know, with my physical environment, but my. My. My intellectual focus and my. Again, maybe my. My. My heart being more open, which probably wasn't so much the case in clinical circumstances, but it is with. With friends that I think that that's made a difference. So, anyway, so thank you, and I will send you a check for this therapy session. I appreciate it so.

Well, I mean, I. I think what that leads the question that with. And everything in the book really is just that people that. It seems to me that we take our closest relationships the most for granted.

Yeah.

The ones that we assume, well, they're there all the time. I see my wife every day. She loves her. Okay, done. Like, I know that's stable. You know, I know that my best friend is there. He's always There I don't, I can call him. I don't have to call him. It's table. It's there. And so we pay more attention to the things that might be in our professional lives or in the outer rim meeting a new stranger. And yet there is so much, there are so many nutrients to harvest and to reap from when we explore in the relationships closest to us. Yeah, because they're there. They've been there for some time. They've seen us in vulnerable situations. They've seen us in where there's high stakes situations or just an intimacy really being intimate. Right. And we're being vulnerable with them. So I think that I find that interesting. I find it's interesting that the one we're closest to are the ones we often overlook and take for granted. Maybe because the flip side is the vulnerability, you're gonna be more vulnerable with, with your partner or your best friend or your brother or sister, you know.

Well, I wonder if that intimacy too, not to make it, you know, I guess I'm thinking of it maybe more paradoxically like it's sort of like, yeah, the intimacy, presumably, and let's say in this hypothetical genuinely, it is there, that then the paradox is that then you start to take it for granted that you, okay, I'm done with this. We know who's who, we're thick as thieves, and that's fine. And now I can focus my energies and my whatevers on other folks that maybe are more in need right now, or there's something else going on from that. But I think that, you know, for myself, and then I just like flip it and say, well, how would I feel? You know, it's like, you know, let's have a little empathy, you know, like towards the other person in reverse here and thinking about, well, you know, if, if, you know, if whoever I'm thinking about, my friend, my family member, my spouse, whoever, you know, was kind of doing this, I would feel a little, you know, forgotten about. I'd feel a little neglected. And that, you know, that is not what I think of when I think of an intimate relationship. I mean, I know we can still be close and friends and, you know, whatever, but, you know, then it starts to, you know, that to me, I've seen that now being a trigger to say, you know, I need to pay some, you know, better attention to this and stop being, you know, so aloof or, you know, not, not avoidant on purpose, but just, you know, kind of missing out on it. So. So let me, let me ask you the Question then with, with the. The and that has been. Am I correct in thinking that that has been sort of that body of work is what has now led to the 12 Questions for Love.

Yeah, the End is a project where you know, we brought in over 1200 conversations, 1200 pairs, all kinds of relationships to face each other and we'd present them with questions and we'd film it with three cameras, a wide shot so you'd see both of them facing each other and two close ups so you see both their faces. And we always show both people at the same time so you're not cutting back and forth from one person. You're showing in a bi panel or a triptych, both people and you're seeing how they're relating to each other above and beyond what they're saying to each other. And that's really powerful.

I love that. I mean I have sampled a variety of these and I'm going to get to the book in a second with the QR codes and stuff which is just also brilliant design by the way. But, but I, it is just. And we'll put this in show notes will it'll be in the other write ups as well too. I mean it is really if you haven't, if any listeners have not yet experienced this, it is just an intellectual, emotional, you know, fascinating kind of treat. So this is a perfect segue. Topaz, let's. I want to discuss the book. The full title is 12 Questions for Love, A guide to intimate conversations and deeper relationships. But before we do, I want to kind of tee this up by what some other folks have had to say about it. Jody Whitaker, who's an award winning actor on screen and stage, said, I've known Topaz for over a Decade and 12 Questions for Love is a perfect example of the incredibly curious, open and uniting person behind the and these seemingly simple questions distill years of observations encouraging us to discuss what matters most and allow our relationships to thrive. Empowering and insightful with heartfelt solutions to real life problems. This is the book I wish I would have been able to give to my younger self. And Natalie Kuhn, co CEO of the class, said, save yourself another round of heartbreak and breakups and read this first. Topaz condenses years of wisdom into 12 powerful questions that will give you the keys to unlock real, true and profound love so that you don't have to keep searching, searching or suffering in disconnected relationships. And it's well and high and well deserved praise Topaz. I really enjoyed it as well. So how did you make the segue or what was the, the spur for going from, you know, the, the digital media of what you just described, the three camera approach and the, the material that you have on YouTube and elsewhere to then make the segue into the printed word and to go into a book format.

Well, we have our editor of the project of the book, Jill. She's been a fan of the Skin Deep for years and 1, 1 month in November a few years ago, she wrote to me and she said, have you ever considered writing a book? What if we took the, you know, distilled what you've seen? Because it's an incredible data set, it's a creative experience that you've witnessed and you've watched all these conversations happen. What are the 12 questions that really work and why. And I think that's a great, you know, wonderful distillation because where do we learn to have intimate conversations? Where do we learn to have cathartic explorative conversations that deepen our connection? We don't, I think in my opinion we don't. We model it in our family and maybe our friend group. But there's no, at least from what I know, like a court. We don't learn that in school. We don't. And so.

Right.

I've learned that by virtue of just doing it and holding the space and testing trial and error, if you will. And, and so that's, you know, the book is a sharing of what we've learned from doing this for 10 years in terms of how to hold the space and how to construct well constructed questions, powerful questions that lead to cathartic conversations.

And, and why 12, how did that come about?

That came about because generally when we bring two people in a room, we'll each, we present each of them with 12 questions. So it's a total of 24. And so I know that, you know, with 12 questions it's sufficient and there's an architecture to that. It's a five act structure. So the first three are exploring the past, the synergy of your union, and building trust and respect, reminding you the trust and respect that you have. The next three explore conflict and how you handle them in different ways. The seventh and eighth question are really the peak, the climax questions that really delve deep to vulnerability. The 9th and 10th are starting to land the plane, if you will, and acknowledging what we learn from each other and gratitude for one another. And 11 and 12 is acknowledging the fact that, you know, is saying the really important things because we don't have forever.

Oh man, just Kind of chokes me up to think about that. Because as you describe them and as I remember when I first read them, you know, just, you can't help but read your book and then apply this in your own life. And I think about it, you know, for me, I didn't really go. I mean, you and I have been talking about, like, me and my friendships and again, and I appreciate this all being about me, Topaz. But the aspect of, as I read through it, I thought about my wife, I thought about my mom, I thought about my son, I thought about my daughter. And to be very honest and transparent, it'd be like, oh, my gosh. Because I'm getting into the book and I'm thinking, oh, I got to do this. We need to set things up as you describe how to in the book, et cetera, et cetera. And then I got to certain questions, I thought, oh, I, oh, my gosh, I could never ask that question. Oh, my gosh, you know, that would just be. I'm too afraid of what the answer might be, you know, kind of a thing or I don't, I don't want, you know, her, them, whoever, to ask me that question because, you know, in all honesty, you know, I'm going to look bad or something. So in that context, I mean, it's just, it's, it's so well crafted and it's so I, like, again, like, to your point about the, the five acts, but that also, like, as you say, right off the bat, these need to be done in this specific order. And here's sort of the, you know, rationale, evidence and reasons as to why. And you also talk about constructing better questions. So I want to circle back to your questions, but are there tips? Like you said, we don't learn this in school. You know, we just kind of, you know, kind of pick it up. Or maybe we don't pick it up very well, or none of us ever pick it up. But what are, what are some tips? Or what are some ways to construct this better questions or what. What constitutes a good question in your perspective?

There are better questions than others in terms of opening up the space for exploration, vulnerability, and sharing. So a there I've found, you know, in doing this for so long, 10 things, and, you know, if you could apply some of them to a question, it really helps. But a very basic one is if you begin a question with is, are, or do, then you're basically asking for a binary response. Do you love me? Are we fighting too much? You know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Are we Going to like, is this the right thing to do? If you start with is ours, it doesn't.

Yes or no, Right?

Yes or no? It's either. Or. Is it clear?

Sure.

And so there's not. There's not much room to explore your relationship, your emotion with a binary answer. Right. And sometimes you want a binary or you don't even should. Should we do this? Yes. It's a yes or no. Instead, if you begin a question with, you know, how, what, why, you are creating the space for more exploration. And again, like, the question shapes the answer. That's very much true. So we yield a lot of power in. In the question that we ask. And so that's one is don't ask a binary question if you want to explore relationship, you know, ask something that requires nuance in the response, you know, so.

And when you say that about how the question, you know, crafts the answer, it's not in the sense of, like, you think about, you know, like, leading the witness, so to speak. It's not like a. A question that's going to lead someone to, you know, the answer that you want them to say kind of a thing. It's. It's crafting it so that it gets to maybe a deeper level or. Or say more about that.

So. So, okay, so if we ask the question, why do we fight so much? Okay, so if you ask the question, why do we fight so much? You're asking the other person, you're asking your own mind for the answers are a list of why we fight so much. If instead you switch it to what are we learning from our fights? Do you see how that. Those answers that that question begs are more constructive?

Mm.

What are we learning from our fights? So we ask ourselves questions all the time, and we don't realize it. You wake up in the morning and you go, oh, geez, I gotta do that today. Oh, geez, I gotta do that today is an answer to a question. You're just not paying attention to the question. So pay attention to the question, and instead of asking yourself, oh, what's the shitty thing I have to do today? You go, okay, I know I have a busy day, but what's the one moment that's gonna be golden for me today? What's the one moment I'm really gonna love enjoying doing today, even if I have the worst day of my life? Right.

That's great.

In the. Shaping the. The. The question has all the power. So we do not pay enough attention to our questions. Someone, if you break up in your relationship, you're asking why they dumped me. Why didn't this work out? And you'll get a list. Instead, you could say you can. Instead, you could ask, you know what? How is this preparing me for the next relationship we're going to be in? So that goes. The second point is, you know, shape the question so that it has a constructive ending, that the answers that it offers you are constructing and empowering. If you're asking yourself a question that begs the answers that are disempowering then and destructive, then it's not really doing you a service.

Well, and I like this. This line of thought, too, Topaz, because in this context, it's really, you know, these are questions to ourselves. You know, these aren't questions to the other. I mean, it's questions to, like, you know, you know, what's going to be golden in my day or what can I learn from this relationship? And I think that, you know, there's the internal conversations that we have, which I think that's just a wonderful point. I just want to underline that. I think that's a great aspect of it, because when we think about, you know, questions or conversations, we think about me and the other, as opposed to me and myself as well, too. So from that, you also talk about cathartic conversations. Unpack that. What. What are cathartic, if I can say it, Conversations. And. And why is it that you feel like we should have such.

Have you ever fought with your wife?

Oh, yes.

Okay. Did you ever make up? You made up?

Yep.

And then after you make up, you feel more resilient and more fulfilled, and you trust her more, she trusts you more. You've been through the storm. You've weathered the storm. You feel more connected. Mm.

Come out the other side, and everything's starting to look.

Yeah.

Okay. Again, sure.

I think that's a cathartic conversation. I think another one is, you know, with your children. You have two children. You have a misunderstanding, they come home late after curfew, they do something you don't necessarily approve of, but maybe have a conversation, and then you see it from their point of view, and you have a deeper appreciation for who they are as independent, individuated humans versus your children, and you see them in a new light for a moment. You know, I think that's a cathartic, I think something that shifts and brings more presence and understanding to seeing the other person. I mean, ultimately, I believe that ultimately, we humans want to be seen. We want to be seen, I think.

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. And to Me. That also sort of implies a growth, you know, in the sense of a growth of how I conceptualize my children. A growth in the sense of me perhaps next time being a better parent. A growth in me maybe being, you know, more of a partner in my relationship with my wife kind of a thing. So that's. That's very helpful because when I think of catharsis, I was thinking more in the sense of. Not that it excludes this, but like, huh, okay, well, that's, you know, man, I made it through that, you know, kind of a thing as opposed to, you know, what have I learned from it? What will be different the next time when there is, you know, a hiccup or a speed bump or something like that. That's. That's good.

To me, it's like exercising, you know, it's going to the gym. It's stretch or stretching or doing yoga or doing something that stretches the body so that it's more flexible and resilient.

That's good, right?

And if. And if you. And we do that for our bodies, we do that for. In our work. We do what we're practicing, we're making. Why? When do we do that in our relationships?

Gotcha. So you also talk about deep listening and that it can change the way that we interact and converse and connect. Talk to us about what deep listening is.

Well, deep listening, I've noticed it's feeling to listen, it's feeling to listen, it's feeling to your body instead of the mind. Because oftentimes our minds are built to protect us while our hearts are built to connect. And it's our minds that run the show because they're protecting us.

Right.

So it's difficult to connect if you're analyzing. You know, if you're having a tactical chess conversation with someone and you're using your mind to engage with them versus your heart. And so how do we bypass that? Well, one way is that when someone is speaking, oftentimes you're thinking about your response again, that's your mind taken over. I'm thinking about either I'm winning the argument or whether I'm going to sound intelligent or whatever it is. Instead, bypass that. Listen to your body, check in with your bra, and see where what you're hearing lands in you and you are not listening for a response. And I'm just saying there's different kinds of conversations to be had as part of creating this.

Gotcha.

So what, there's two. Whatever. Like there is about creating the space and that there's. What can Certain questions and you. Yeah.

So what happens if, so what happens if your partner or whoever it is that you want to have this conversation with, if they're inhibited? You know, would, would sharing the book first be an approach? Would sharing, you know, links to some of videos for them to get kind of an idea of, you know, what this is all about or what are some ways of, you know, kind of that, that foot in the door, you know, gateway drugs to being able to get your partner to talk more and open up more.

Yeah, well, I think the videos definitely help. I think we also have these card games that you can play. We have a box of card games, different 12 different editions that you could purchase just as a game to create the space and ask good questions and see what comes up. I think ultimately what's. So I think that helps. I think, but I think what helps you is just setting the time. Hey, can we, you know, on our date night, can we play these games And I have a book, I just listen to a podcast. There's a book. Let's try these questions. You can read the book first, or we could just ask the 12 questions and then, and then read the book and see why the 12 questions were so effective and so helpful. And more importantly, how you can then now that you know how this works, you can then construct your own questions and have your own conversations in your own space. Because this is. Yes, it's prescriptive. Yes, I know these questions work, but other questions work too. Right. But learning how it works, the mechanisms that teaches you how to ride the bike, once you know how to ride the bike, you can bike anywhere. D gives you agency.

Do you, do you recommend or what are your thoughts like, would partners do this periodically? My daughter's recently married and they are like, bless their hearts. I mean, they're like great role models for this. I mean, when I do something nice for my wife these days, I say, hey, I'm mimicking my new son in law kind of a thing. I mean, I'm learning old dog and new tricks kind of thing. But is this something that people should come back to just by, you know, by calendar? Is it something that they should open up when they're hitting a rough patch? Or what are some of the, the timings or, or triggers for, you know, maybe revisiting it after you've done it once?

So I was saying here that, you know, love is an emotion, but it's also an act. It's also a practice. It's also practice. And anything that you check it on you, you're a collector of cars, right? And motorcycles. You, you rebuild them. Like if you don't maintain your motorcycle in the garage after a year, you do nothing to it. It's then, then you take it out for a ride. It's likely not going to work.

Right.

You have to maintain it. You have to me, why isn't our relationship the same? If you don't exercise for a year and then try to go climb Kilimanjaro, you're going to have a very hard time.

Right.

You didn't do anything, you didn't do anything wrong, but you didn't maintain it. So absolutely, it's helpful to maintain a practice to maintain your. To do a check in. I mean, we take our cars every 12,000 miles for a check in. Why don't we do that with our relationship?

Right, right.

You know, and bring conscientious. It's very. Again, it goes back to why are we taking our closest relationships for granted? We assume they're there. We assume the love. And we don't put. We've. We assume the emotion of love and therefore we don't take the practice of doing the act of love. And the act of love is being vulnerable with each other, is sharing and reflecting the experience of what it means to be alive and living with each other and how we're growing and how we're changing. And yes, there's a practice and whatever that rhythm is, it can be one question a day. We have a lot of people who take one question a day from a deck or they have a check in every Tuesday and Thursday or they have a check in once a month or they have a check in every six months. Whatever it is for you. Obviously I think, you know, the more the better, only because it creates a more resilient relationship. But yes, I think a maintenance is super helpful. We do it for so many other things. Why don't we do it for our relationship?

Yeah, you say that. It just seems so, you know, ridiculously obvious. It's. And it's, it's kind of a nice thing too in the sense that, you know, you sort of have these, you know, kind of check ins and opportunities to do that. And it also then normalizes the process as opposed to, oh, Chris got the 12 questions for love book out again. You know, oh, there's something, you know, here, here, you know, storms are brewing or something versus just like you said, it's just, it's a normal kind of thing. I don't need my wheel to fall off. You know, first in Order to make sure that my car or my relationship or whatever, you know, is going in the way that it does. Do you feel. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

No, but the. The chances of the wheel falling off are higher if you don't maintain the relationship. When your partner comes in and says, we gotta talk, and we all know what that means. That means I'm gonna have a painful conversation.

Exactly.

What that means is that the lack of maintaining the relationship and not acknowledging has built up so much pain. We can no longer continue not acknowledging whatever it is that's happening. And so for. Therefore, we have to talk. And you can mitigate that by doing a check in and having conversations and practicing it. And not only is it builds a healthier, resilient, More resilient relationship, but it creates a more fulfilling one. Yeah, right. And to me, it's just. I just find it quite ironic that the ones that we're closest to, we take for granted, we don't explore. Because there's so much juice in that. There's so much. So much. And what I mean by juice is just like when you have a makeup conversation or makeup sex, you know, or you have a fight with a close friend, but then you make up afterwards and you feel like, I can look my friend in the eye now, I know that we can have real conversations and he can really see me and I can see him, and it feels more living, enlivening. And I know that that's scary and uncomfortable. But what I want to say, if you look in the listeners, if you look at any big accomplishment in your life. Life, if you look at some great moment that you achieved, I promise you an hour, a day, a month, a year before, you were very anxious about that, right?

Sure.

When you got it, you went to Harvard Medical School, Right.

Postdoc.

Postdoc. Right. I'm sure that when you got in, you must have been very proud of yourself. It was an accomplishment. But I also promise you that when you took the test, you were nervous. I promise you that when you're studying hard to get grades, when you wrote the letter and you applied and you did everything and you sent it in, you are also anxious and nervous.

Yeah.

And it was scary.

Yep. And felt like I shouldn't, you know, it felt like, oh, what am I doing? And yeah, it's the wrong thing or whatever. But, yeah, thank goodness that we do those things that maybe feel anxiety producing or whatever. To your point, have this, you know, exquisite payoff to have it pay off.

Accomplishment is commensured to the discomfort to the challenge that you go through. And so don't shy away from the challenge. Don't shy away from the discomfort. There's nothing better than to lean into discomfort in a safe place.

Yeah. Yeah, that's. And where better than the relationship that you have with people that you care about? Well, Topaz, I know that you've got a little bit of a time crunch, but there's a couple of other things I want to ask you about if you. You're good for time, at least for right now. Great. So I am a book nerd. As we mentioned off mic beforehand, I've had a lot of authors on, and not just what is written and talked about and taught from the books, but also just even the designs of the books. And, my friend, I have to tell you, your design, first off, I have never seen a dedication done like yours. It was just lovely. And I want to say, not only what you wrote for, but, like, with the ability, it looks like it's in your own hand. And I thought that every book should be that way. That should be a role model for publishers henceforth and authors, because I just thought that was beautiful. That was a first for me.

Thank you.

How did. Just maybe. Let's take a quick sidebar on that. How did you. Was that an arm twist to the publisher, say, hey, I really want to do it this way, or how did you come up with that intellectually, creatively? What. Just unpack that. Just real quick.

Just like you can hear a lot in someone's tone of voice that's unique to them. I think you also can see a lot in their handwriting. And so I wanted to leave a mark on the book that was very vulnerable because I'm inviting people to lean into real conversations, authentic conversations. And so for me, that was a visual way of putting myself out there authentically.

Wow.

And that's what. And making it unique and personal. So that's why I put in my handwriting. And to the credit to the publishing house, they were open to it. They thought it was a great idea, and they were very kind, and it wasn't a problem. So. So credit to them.

That's great. Well, and obviously, I mean, look here. It touched me, Topaz. I mean, it really. It was notable. And, you know, I deconstruct books, you know, just to enjoy them, and that was just a little treat on top of.

So that's awesome.

You're. Well, you're. Yeah. Light in your. Because this was awesome work. So your table of contents. So next, turn the page. You know, I haven't even gotten to the non Roman numeral page numbers yet. But it was also creative and just such a. And practical, useful design too. So same kind of thing. Good collaboration with your publisher.

Well, I wanted to. On that page, you mean? Because I have like questions 1, 2, 3, and then it leans to the other side of the page and then returns.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, I did that on purpose is because I wanted to give the reader a bump. Like they open and they expect it to be left page first and then the right page. And I'm really glad you're asking this because no one's asked before, but I was intentional with my, with the teams. No, we need to give them, we need to give the reader a bump so that it's not what they're normally used to. And therefore they have to be a little bit more present in paying. A little bit more. They know this is not the same ride as any other book.

Yeah, yeah, buckle up.

That's right, buckle up. Just a little bit of a. Yeah. Of a visual shift for people they know, like, oh, okay. They're paying it. We're paying the designers and us and the author are paying attention to give you a unique experience. And so that instantly from the, you know, fourth page or whatever.

Yeah.

Gives the reader an awareness of what's coming up.

It is, it is so engaging. I mean, I just grabbed it again. It's just, it's, it's just, it's, it's, it's one of the most engaging, elegant approaches that I've, I've come across. So again, bouquets and kudos. So. So now I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump to the end of the book because we can be kind of talking about the in between, but the end of the book, then you've got QR codes in the references and again, nicely laid out. I think that is so clever. And so actually I took your book on vacation with, with, with me and I'm reading the book and you know, talking about it periodically, you know, with my wife. And then I see the QR codes, you know, when I get to the end and I like whip out my phone and you know, start looking at that. She goes, what are you doing? I said, oh, this is like, you know, more, more. You know, just. It doesn't stop, you know, the book. You, It's a, it is a concise, you know, perfect size kind of, you know, take along book and have on your bookshelf as well. But then it really brought the concepts alive. I mean, in my Head. Like I told you before, I've been thinking about it, me and my relationships with who I care about. And then I get to see them, you know, and, and you've got little, you know, descriptions of well, here's this kind of relationship and here's that kind of, you know, someone, you know, whatever kind of whoever you are in the world and however you identify and whatever your experience is with other loved ones, there's something there for you. And watching things that kind of fit to my lived experience and watching things of other people's lived experience, watching both just as so enriching and so brings alive to kind of see, you know, it's like the practical application. It's like you know, theory and practice. The theory is in the book and then the practical application in real with real people in their real lives. Just Topaz just really, you know, brings it, brings it to life. So thank you so much.

That means a lot. Thank you so much.

Absolutely. So. And then I just want to also say at the end you offer the further questions that are in addition to the the 12. So do you have some tips for readers and listener like how. How would you recommend the. The use of those. The further questions?

I think once you read the book and you understand the structure and what makes a well constructed question and creating the space, then you know, here are other questions that you could place in you know, instead of it within the structure. Right. Instead of question one, you know, you could ask another question because really it's about the maintenance really is about the exploration of your relationship. And in case you get bored asking the same questions, here's a bunch of other options.

That's awesome. That is awesome. Well, this has been great. Before I let you go, I know from doing some of my research on you that you now have something called your experiences offerings. Could you maybe just tell us a little bit what they're like and why would what motivates people to join what they can get out of it, what that's like.

Well, we have the and live experience which is taking this project and putting in live context. I call it a magic show of humanity. We do it for corporations and organizations and universities. Bring a bunch of people together and have this incredible 90 minute experience and it's bringing the intimacy that you see of the and videos into a room full of 40 to 2,000 people.

Wow.

So that would be the and live experience that we do. And then we also have some corporate offerings with another author, Jeff Wetzler. He has a book called the Ask or Ask it's called his ask approach is applying the power of questions to management and managing organizations. So him and I create certain events or special offerings together for corporations that want to bring their, their teams together to be more efficient and achieve goals. You know, unleashing the power, that's the hidden power that's, that's between us. But we're not speaking about it because we're not asking well constructed questions.

Oh, that's great. Well, Topaz, we've covered a lot of territory. Is there anything that we've missed or that you'd like to add as we wrap up?

No, I just appreciate, appreciate the time. I appreciate chatting with you. I appreciate you bringing me back to Skype, which is amazing for all the,

all the Luddite listeners out there.

It's amazing.

Sponsored Next next episode be sponsored by Skype.

So exactly. Thanks for having me. And Chris, thank you for looking through the book and acknowledging the design of the book and the design from the design team from the edit. They're amazing. The publishing house so well.

And thank you. Thank you the work you put into it. So what are some of the best ways listeners can learn more? I'll put in links about the book and, and the experiences and your website, but to connect more, get your book. What are people where to 12 questions

for love is available in audiobook, hardcover and ebook on Amazon. And anywhere you get your, your books, it's everywhere. The skindeep.com that's the place you want to go. That's where we have all our products and digital products from the skin deep, our 12th editions and everything. And on our social media, it's the Skin Deep. So if you just look up the skin deep on YouTube or TikTok Instagram, you'll find us great.

And they'll be joining armies of others that are big fans like me. So Topaz, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on and even more so the important work that you do. It's really a gift to us all. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you Chris. I appreciate you. Thank you so much.

This episode was also brought to you by Young Automotive, a partner and sponsor of our 2024 Racing to Help Others project. They're a second generation auto service provider based in Sturgeon Bay and serving customers throughout Door County, Wisconsin. They are recognized as a trusted, community minded, locally owned business. In fact, their motto is Changing Lives by Fixing Cars. Their ASE certified technicians are experts in servicing domestic, European and Asian vehicles along with hybrids. They are MAP accredited and an ASA member. Cal's expertise in preparing the C8 for the racing season has made all the difference both in the car's on the track performance and my peace of mind as the driver. Owner Fred Young and service manager Nick Krueger's backgrounds, experience and automotive knowledge are without compare. Their commitment to helping others is a testament to their ethics and the shop's ethos. Fred's leadership in developing a positive, diverse and supportive workplace culture serves as a model for other entrepreneurs to aspire to. And on a personal note, I want to share my heartfelt thanks and deep appreciation for all they do and to our collaboration in helping others wherever we can. Visit their website@youngautomotive.net and be sure to check out the stories on their YouTube channel at Young Automotive, Inc. Sturgeon Bay. You won't be disappointed. Thanks. Living Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot, LLC. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website A lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend a special to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my time disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks and until next time.