Welcome to the New Renaissance with Ambassador Philip Lader and Linda LeSourd Lader

Living a Life in Full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode of Living a Life in Full is brought to you by ATI Physical Therapy. If you need physical therapy, choose ati. ATI offers exceptional care, trusted expertise and remarkable outcomes customized to your needs. ATI has over 800 clinics coast to coast in 25 states. Want to start feeling better fast? ATI can help address chronic pain or recovery from an injury or surgery expertly, quickly and conveniently. ATI's first program uses a performance based methodology to safely return injured workers to their workplace. FIRST is designed to increase strength, endurance and cardiovascular functioning. ATI's sports medicine provides athletic training services to help athletes get back in the game. ATI has hundreds of professional collegiate, high school, middle school and club relationships nationwide. ATI also offers a variety of specialty services including home health, hand therapy and women's health. To Learn more about ATI's advances in evidence based practice, clinical outcomes and their innovative new smartphone app, please visit atipt.com welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. I'd like to welcome an amazing couple and dynamic duo, Ambassador Philip Lader and Linda Lasword Lader. Ambassador Lader graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Duke University, received his Master's in History from the University of Michigan, and completed graduate law studies at Pembroke College, Oxford University, and received his JD As a Leopold Shepp Scholar from Harvard Law. Linda Lasord later received her Bachelor's degree from Ohio Wesleyan University and then went to Yale Divinity School where she received her Master's of Divinity. Philip is former U.S. ambassador to the Court of St. James and the former chairman of WPP Plc, which has over 205,000 employees in 3,000 plus offices in 114 countries. Ambassador later served in President Clinton's cabinet while administrator of the U.S. small Business Administration and was White House Deputy Chief of Staff, Assistant to the President and Deputy Director of the Office of Management and Budget. Previously, he was Executive Vice President of Sir James Goldsmith's US holdings and President of Sea Pines Company as well as Universities of South Carolina and Australia, a Trustee of the RAND Corporation and an honorary fellow of Pembroke College, Oxford University, and the London Business School, and a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. Philip has served on the boards of Lloyds of London, the American Red Cross, The British Museum, St. Paul's Cathedral, the Smithsonian Museum of American History, the Atlantic Council, and Marathon Oil, as well as several banks and universities. He's also been a partner at the Nelson Mullins law Firm and president of Business Executives for National security. He holds 14 honorary doctorates and has won the Benjamin Franklin Medal, the Rotary International Foundation's Global Service to Humanity Award, and the British American Business Founders Award. Linda, an ordained Presbyterian minister, is president of the Renaissance Institute. Formerly, she was associate pastor of Washington, D.C. 's historic New York Avenue Presbyterian Church. Reflecting a long career commitment to nonprofit initiatives, she served on the boards of Habitat for Humanity, Yale Divinity School, Communities in Schools, Alpha usa, International Justice Mission, Harvard Divinity Schools for Center of the Study of Values in Public Life Sojourners, the International Tennis hall of Fame, and the American International University in London. From 1993 to 1996, she assisted with White House Liaison to American Communities of Faith and advised the President on public policy issues pertaining to religion associated with the National Prayer Breakfast ministries throughout the 1970s, she coordinated the 1979 National Prayer Breakfast. In recognition of such public service, she received the International Women's Foundation Leadership Award in 2000 and the 2012 Humanitarian Award from Emma Willard School, her alma mater. Her editing work continues the tradition of her parents, Leonard Lesour, longtime editor of Guideposts, and Catherine Marshall, author of A Man Called Peter Christie and other best sellers. So you guys, welcome to you both. It's been too long.

Good to be with you, Chris.

Yes, indeed.

So I just have to say a big thank you. My family and I so enjoyed the Renaissance weekends we were a part of, and we all to this day keep in touch with many of the friends that we've made. And again, thanks to you both for that. I want to start our conversation off with the creation of the Renaissance Institute and then dig deeper into both of your amazing careers, which are is obviously evidenced by the bios and the introduction. But first off, for those that aren't familiar with the Renaissance Weekend, to quote from your website, it's a place where the urgent questions of our times are examined with candor. All participants heard broadly divergent views expressed. Imminent adversaries disagree about being disagreeable, which I love that the alchemy of ideas and substantive relationships has incredibly transforming power. So tell us about that. What's the genesis of that? And give us a little Bit of history and background.

Shortly after we were married, we decided as we were at a party that was given to for us by some dear friends and as people were leaving, how rarely we had had since school days to discuss substantive issues in depth with some of the most interesting people we had had occasion to get to know in work or through school or children's activities or church or whatever. And so we decided, why don't we find a way to bring together some of these innovative leaders, very different perspectives, and seek to build bridges across the traditional divides of religion, race, politics, age, and the like. And that was the start of a house party for 60 families in 1981,

not in our house

that has now grown to five weekends a year that we have with several thousand people each year attending.

Wow. So that point of the conversations, I mean, it sort of reminds me of like Richard Saul Wurman, I said in the. Or I've heard him say in the genesis of the TED conferences of the, you know, sort of like the trying to host the dinner party that where great conversations, you know, happen. But one of the things that Richard never said about a TED Talk is involving families, too. So I know that participants over the age of six, everybody's invited full families, but even those over the age of six are invited to speak. Is that right?

That's correct. Though people can refuse, obviously.

Sure, sure.

But when we were conceiving this idea, our host that weekend had children. And I remember the mother saying, you know, you have to include families. And as we talked about possible dates and realizing that the time between Christmas and New Year's was not a usually a big work time and people might want to come with their families, we realized that we needed to do that. And it wasn't until we had children a few years later, I think, that we paid full attention to the children's programs, which got better and better as our kids got older and older. And they were our consultants on this, obviously. But when our elder daughter, Mary Catherine turned six and she watched her father planning these programs and she'd been to Renaissance Weekend, she said, daddy, why can't I be on a panel? And so that became the magic age, at which we started assigning children to panels. And as you may recall, they talk about things like their favorite pet or their worst family vacation. And it's been very heartwarming over the years that many young adults tell us that they first learned how to speak at Renaissance Weekend. They first held a microphone in their hands at Renaissance Weekend. So it's had many repercussions that we might not have anticipated at the beginning.

One of the children's topics that I always enjoy is why grade A professionals may not do better than Fs as parents. And it's very telling to hear what some of the kids will say, but

I always wonder about that. I'm a little nervous.

I would hasten to say that a significant, significant percentage of our participants are young professionals, young adults without families who are singles. And in fact, we've had almost 20 marriages occur as a result of people meeting at Renaissance weekends.

Wow, that's. That's amazing. That's a whole little.

But what's even more exciting, I think, is the partnerships and the nonprofits and the great efforts people have conceived of there. And then even more the friendships that you cited that we feel we love. Playing matchmaker for friendships and many other endeavors.

That's fantastic. Well, congratulations. I did not realize that. That's very cool. So part of the kids part is there's like a Camp Renaissance and a Renaissance Academy. So unpack that for our audience.

The Camp Renaissance is what we call our children's program. And as you may recall, they have programs with our other participants. So astronauts may come and talk to them about going into space, or somebody might talk to them about Chinese characters, or come and discuss a host of other issues with them. And. Go ahead, Phil, what else would you

say about camp in addition to usual activities, visiting local museums or activities. But perhaps the most interesting part are the programs in which the children, all, any of whom are over the age of six, are engaged in discussions on subjects that are age appropriate themselves.

Well, and it's so nice, I think, I forget which one it was, but I think our children, that's where I made the connection with Jerry, you know, and my daughter comes to me and, you know, hands me his business card and she said that, you know, I spoke to an astronaut today, you know, and I thought, that's really cool. I want to speak to an astronaut, astronaut 2 today. You know, those sorts of things. I mean, it really, you know, age knows no bound in terms of participation of a six year old, you know, lecturer or a, you know, a 40 year old audience attendee. I think that's, that's wonderful.

I think I overheard an astronaut's son say, dad, I met Chris Stout today.

Oh, you're very kind, Phil. So I think you also made mention then about kind of like the local adventures. I mean, it's, you know, presentations and things like that may sound a little anxiety producing or something, but there's very Much a relaxed vibe there, which is, which is wonderful and refreshing for a weekend. But, you know, you also have like adventure, local adventures to whatever venue you're at and music and sports and cultural things. Tell us, tell us a little bit about that and some of the adventures that you've had as venues.

Well, perhaps what has distinguished us for the 130 some odd weekends over these 38 years is the fact that we really see people interacting with each other. There are no set canned presentations. There are certainly lectures by distinguished authorities. But oftentimes we find that the most revealing discussions are when you have people out hiking together or the conversations in the hallways where a high school senior or a young investment banker have occasion to discuss with the CEO or with their distinguished Nobel laureate in physics things that are matters of curiosity to them. And that kind of informal learning is far more meaningful, we think, than the set presentation lectures that are part of our program but are the kind of mainstay of traditional conferences.

Do you think that sort of speaks to the secret sauce then of the success of the Renaissance Weekends?

Well, I think as you already indicated, one of the not secret parts of the recipe is the family involvement. Because I've had many families say something to the effect of, well, when we drove here, it was quieter in the car than when we were driving home. And the conversations got a lot better after Renaissance Weekend. The crowd for families to be able to share something together across generations I think is all too unusual these days.

But the real secret sauce is that we have a profound belief that everyone has something to learn from everyone else. Everyone who comes to our weekends is a speaker. Everyone has the opportunity to share stories, insights from their work or personal lives. And it's that interaction which creates the alchemy that we believe transform what may seem academic into very meaningful relationships.

That's nice. And it probably doesn't hurt to have a round of flag football with the Clintons or something as well either. Right?

Well, we did have that on the peach in the 1980s and 90s, but now we're in Charleston.

Yeah, that's so cool. So the history, I mean, it goes back to 81, as you said. But is my math right? Has it been over 130 weekend events at this point?

Correct. Exactly. And in the early years we had just one a year. And then as the demand grew, with many past participants returning, if not every year, certainly every several years, we had to expand the number of weekends. And that's the reason we just have to limit ourselves at five weekends a year, because this is just an extracurricular, nonprofit activity for us. And we have other parts of our lives that we have to attend to as well.

Well, sure, sure. How? I know some of the, like Charleston's a stalwart site, but where, where are some of the other venues? And how do you go about picking where to go?

Well, this year will be in traditional locations such as Beaver Creek in Colorado or in Monterey in California, Santa Monica. But also this year we'll be in Chicago and we've been in Boston, so we're occasionally venturing into cities. But traditionally it's at a more remote destinations where people have a chance to enjoy different kinds of experiences, such as Jackson Hole, but in meaningful ways. Get to walk or bike or play football on the beach or whatever, and have the kinds of exchanges that we think are far more penetrating oftentimes than Q and A after a lecture.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I think the, you know, just sort of, you know, having dinners together and like you said, you know, going for walks and like, we would do family walks. And I remember some of the conversations we'd have just, you know, poolside with, you know, random folks because you saw their name tag or that, you know, our kids were playing together. Just, it's. It is just really a totally different kind of situation than the Aspen Institute or ted's or Davos or anything like that.

Again, that's a critical point in that there are no random folks and random conversations. Everyone who comes to our weekends, I hate to use the term curated, but essentially the guest lists are such that everyone has a story. And oftentimes the most individual stories that are most compelling are from people that. Whose names are not household words. Individuals who may be the principal speaker at a neurosurgery conference, but at the same time would not be known to people in the advertising world or those who are professional athletes. But to have those individuals interact and feel comfortable about discussing their insights, that's where the fact that there is no randomness becomes very evident.

Yeah, you mentioned name tags. You well recall, I'm sure that the first name is very large right across the room. The last name is smaller. And then all we have is your geographic location because we want to give that as a starter for conversations. But we don't put titles on people's name tags because that isn't the primary reason for interaction at Renaissance.

Yeah, that's. I really like that. I think that's a good point. In the context of oftentimes, you know, at conferences, people get conditioned to, you know, be Their professional Persona, whoever that is, whatever that is. I just got back from the annual meeting of the American Psychological association and it's, you know, it's interesting, Phil, to hear that juxtaposed from what you just said, from where I've just been in the context of, you know, it's a bunch of psychologists talking to a bunch of stuff, psychologists, which is fine, which is great. But, you know, you don't get to hear from the outside field so much. It's much more of an exception. There's a bit, you know, I think, improvement in that with professional conferences. But again, back to yours. It's sort of like the whole point of, you know, curated ideas and curated content with remarkable diversity, which I think then just goes right back to, you know, the concept of Renaissance. That's, you know, there wasn't a specificity with the Renaissance, there was a, a globalness, a generality with the Renaissance. So I think it's aptly named for that. Now, having said all this, I do have to do a little bit of title dropping here. I want to share with our audience who may not be familiar with maybe some of the more heady titles of folks that come. But basically, and again, to Linda's point, this is people with, on a first name basis, who you can go grab a cup of coffee with or go for morning run with, but score I couldn't even keep. I couldn't count the number of Nobel laureates that have been in attendance. Pulitzer, MacArthur, National Humanities Medal and Templeton Prize winners, dozens of Oscar, Emmy and Grammy winners, Supreme Court justices, senators, members of Congress and governors, again, innumerable astronauts, 16 former candidates for US president, both Republican and Democrats, which I think again speaks to, to the ethos of the Renaissance. And a number of Wimbledon and US Open and Olympic champions, professional athletes, university presidents and deans, journalists, CEOs, secretaries of state, secretaries of Defense, the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, the US Poet Laureate, clergy of various faiths and religion, scholars, professors from various fields, human rights activists and even Miss America. So I think there's no greater diversity of venue with that, plus families, you know, plus contacts and partners. So how is it that folks that get invited, get invited to the weekend?

Well, you're very thoughtful to give that litany, but I will hasten to say the greatest distinction amongst people who have come and continue to come over the weekends are the winners of Nobel Prizes for friendship. And as a result, that is not a direct correlation to their professional title, their net worth, or the place where they secured degrees or diplomas. And we really do emphasize that while we have much to learn from the kinds of distinguished individuals you identify, the important part of our weekend is the personal stories, the personal growth, the insights that have been gained by individuals regardless of their titles.

And you well recall our first night panel has traditionally been mistakes, their lessons and consequences, which I feel is essential especially for newcomers to be part of because it reminds us all that that's what we share in common. And it's tries to get people to put their resumes aside and to really think about the more important things of life.

Yeah, well put. Well, hear, hear. So I know that what happens at Renaissance stays at Renaissance. I know that there's, you know, strict, you know, concerns about anonymity and confidentiality and things like that. But you, you guys have already given us a bit of a taste of kind of, you know, some of the, the things, you know, these points, talking about mistakes and closeness and friendships and family kinds of things. Are there any particular takeaways or stories over the years and over the 130 plus weekends that have happened that you can share with our audience?

Well, you're very correct in that we do have a strict confidentiality policy. And so individuals speak openly and we do not film or record statements we've regretted in some ways because such meaningful things have been said by well known individuals and significant things by individuals who may not be household names. But frankly, what we've learned is when someone's presenting a prepared talk or knows he or she is being recorded, it really affects the level of, of authenticity and candor. And as a result, the sacrifice of not having this wonderful record of past comments or the breadth, if you will, as some of our other kinds of events have, where there are talks that are provided on public media. The difference is a very profound sense of candor and authenticity in our discussions. Not that this is bearing one's soul necessarily, but when individuals can talk about their research and not worry that somebody else is going to copy what they're disclosing. I speak of scientists there, particularly when somebody is discussing a political strategy in a campaign without fear of that being disclosed, if you will, to future or current opponents, or when individuals are discussing matters of a book that they're writing or an idea they have for a book, or how they're circulating an idea to publishers without fear of that being broadcast, if you will, widely changes the entire nature of the level of discussion.

I think that's so refreshing in this context of the world of, you know, everything, you know, people, you know, photographing their, you know what they're having for lunch, kind of, you know, silliness sort of thing, and that everything has to be, you know, immediately shared on a blue screen kind of thing. So it's, it's wonderful to have a place where people can, you know, let their hair down and be able to, you know, just share and have, you know, generative conversations with, you know, people from, you know, a variety of different kinds of backgrounds. So just again, thank you for having developed this. Thank you for continuing on with it. It's a wonderful venue and it's a wonderful, I think, opportunity for people to do creative things. Obviously a wonderful opportunity for people to get together and start relationships and businesses and things as well, too. So thank you for that. I want to shift gears a little bit and I want our audience to get to know you both a little bit better. Maybe we could start off. Linda, why divinity school and Phil, why law?

Well, I was interested in matters of faith from my young adulthood especially. And because I worked in what they called parachurch work in the 1970s, I didn't see a need. Those were the days when we were not as keen on institutions. I just, after considering it, didn't decided I didn't, quote, need graduate school. But then when we returned from London and our girls were off at school and Phil started his around the world travels on various boards, I just realized that I wanted to go back to school. And I thought it was rather crazy at my age, more than 30 years after undergraduate work. But Phil was fabulous. We had organized our schedules around his for 25 years. And in the time I was in school and for some of my pastor days, my family had to work around my schedule. And so I really wanted to go deeper. I was troubled by the way faith was being. I felt misused in political ways and felt that I needed to get more grounding in church history and other religions and so forth. So I went back to divinity school a dozen years ago, and they called the older students, such as myself, euphemistically, second career students. But it was fabulous. I was happy to see my brain still worked and I could learn how to write an academic paper again and made some wonderful friendships and observations of many things.

That's fantastic. I applaud you for that. You may recall my wife's family comes from a background of seminarians and pastors. And I know that that life, I know the academic part of it, the rigor of it, is something that's quite intimidating to me. And I think then the academic life of it in terms of Representation in terms of the kinds of things I think that you express through who you are as a person is just a perfect fit. And I think the work that you've done with the Renaissance Institute, I think, also likewise speaks well to that kind of integration of who you are as a person, as well as your academic training at that point.

I do have to give you one Renaissance vignette. This was actually before I went to divinity school. I, as I indicated, had been in Christian ministry as a lay person for most of my adult life. But I was very nervous about what we had at Renaissance Weekend in terms of faith, because I didn't feel like it was fair to invite people under one premise and then for them to get there and feel like we were laying some kind of religious trip on them. So we were very restrained about any such panels for many years. And I'll never forget walking with a US Senator, somebody who'd be considered very liberal. I had no idea of any faith commitment on this person's part. And this person said to me, linda, I just came from this spiritual panel, and you need to have more of these and have them earlier in the weekend, because this is what people really want to talk about. And I thought, okay. Then we became less skittish. You talked about everything else under the sun, and we say we're talking about things that matter. So, yes, let's have more of it.

That's great. Yeah. The classic of, hey, let's talk about religion and politics.

Yeah, exactly. We try to tone down the politics.

Yeah. Well, that's good.

We are very eager for a diversity of views because I think we're also siloed, so spending time with people who think like us. So we're working hard to achieve that difference of perspective, disagreeing without being disagreeable. But frankly, it's harder than ever.

Wow. I remember, I think your co chairs of the 25th anniversary was President Ford and President Clinton. Right, they co chaired.

Exactly.

Yeah. I think that that, again, speaks to the, you know, across the aisle kind of bipartisanship and whatnot. But, you know, I hear. I hear what you're saying. I think we need that now more than ever with all the divides that we seem to feel, you know, both, you know, here, stateside as well as around the world.

Sadly, the gatherings are very much nonpartisan. We always sought to have matters of politics, policy and government part of the discussion, but certainly not central only is essentially one part of the comprehensive lives that all of us seek to live.

Yeah. So, Phil, how about you? How about law school? What Drew you to the law.

Oh, we were privileged to get to know Justice Scalia personally, and though I certainly disagreed on a number of his judicial decisions, I had enormous respect and affection for him. And so once when he was visiting us afterwards, he sent a very thoughtful gift. It was a photograph of the entire Supreme Court autographed by each of the justices. And on the back, in typical Scalia fashion, he wrote a little note. Phil, this is to remind you of your failed legal career. Well, I did go to law school, and I enjoyed being a partner in a significant law firm. I have to say, most of my life has been spent in business, education, and government. But I'm very pleased and recommend to anyone that the law is not only a great personal calling professionally, but also wonderful training.

I think I see that scales to a lot of folks in the business world and startups and so on. But, Phil, I have to say, it seems like you've had multiple careers during your lifetime. That would be full careers, right, Linda?

Yes. I kept trying to get them to specialize, because people who succeed focus. You have such an interest in public affairs and education and business that he just always seemed to juggle all of them.

Yeah. Well, okay. Unless this is too personal, how did you two meet?

I was organizing a Christian singles retreat on Hilton Head Island. And frankly, as we look back on our lives prior to our marriage, we both tended to host and organize events. So though it wasn't conscious, and now we can see, we were headed towards creating Renaissance Week weekend all along. But a friend of mine had gone, and she brought him back to our first meeting, and he walked in.

It was held on Hilton Head island, where I lived at that time and worked. And I had met this other young woman elsewhere, introduced by a mutual friend. And all during the dinner that we had that night, she told of this event she had come down for and her roommate for that weekend, with whom she worked in Washington, and. And what respect she had for that roommate and that she invited me to join them for their session that night. I went back, and at the door, I met her roommate and decided on the spot that I wanted to marry Linda.

I didn't quite see that. I was busy with sorting things out for our event, and he was, after all, on a date with my friend. But that all got very quickly resolved, and she's godmother to our younger daughter and still remains a very close friend and married quite happily herself.

Oh, what a wonderful story. Yeah. And you were sort of the harbinger of the Renaissance Weekend way back then. So that's pretty cool. So you both have had quite the public life. I mean, I appreciate that there's been the private companies and advisory board kinds of things, but tell us a little bit about that, because you both were involved with President Clinton and advisory positions and things in the White House and then on as ambassador to the uk. So unpack that for us. What was that like?

Well, you're perceptive to know that that is like another whole career for a marriage, because I think anyone who's thrust into public life, whether personally or through a spouse, really has to embrace it or it's a miserable occurrence. Phil ran for governor of South Carolina after we'd been married just six years. And back then he was, you know, there were false accusations, but they look like kindergarten compared to what people deal with today. I don't envy anyone. And yet we need good people to go into public life. We can't just leave it to those whose egos are so enormous. But anyway, it means being able to be supportive of one spouse. You can't do these things. Well, I don't think if there isn't full if both people aren't all in. And it's given us enormous opportunities. We've met so many interesting people, but it's stressful. And I'm very happy that we had time where he was president of university in Australia before coming back to work in the White House, because we had, you know, we kind of stored up some relaxation, you know, in Australia, they thought we really moved at breakneck speed. But after a couple of years there, we came back and realized I looked around at people in Washington, I said, what are they rushing to? It's really hard. And we became like that.

I quickly want to emphasize that

while

may sound euphemistic, public service is a very great privilege and an important calling. And if one has the opportunity, whether on a local school board or running for city council, for leading a not major nonprofit in one's community, or serving on a congressional staff or in the White House. Each of these are an important part of contribution, if you will, to the society. I was privileged to work for a president who used to say, I have to go to work whenever you be having some fun in a conversation or whatever. He would use the refrain, well, I got to get back to work for the American people. And that's what all of us really have to be doing when we are privileged to hold these jobs. But I do confide that it's simply part of one's life. Each of us had the enormous privilege of serving in these roles where there was significant responsibility. But that's a part of one's life, and one ends that chapter and turns to something else. And increasingly, I think it's important that. That we have people who have turned several chapters in depth in their professional lives to garner experience and then serve, if you will, in public ways.

And it's so important and so challenging, frankly, to keep one's perspective. You've heard Phil many times, or however many times you've been to Renaissance Weekends, tell his story about how we all juggled so many things in life, and yet they're like rubber balls that will bounce back, but they're those things that are made out of crystal that we must not treat lightly because they could break and fall and be shattered. And that includes family and our friends and our faith and our health. And Phil always used to say national security. And I frankly think some people rolled their eyes like, oh, please, let's not get so melodramatic. But I think we all now understand much more how important that is.

Yeah, absolutely. So help me understand the trajectory. Was it. Did the ambassadorship follow the time at the White House for you both?

Yes, I had a series of roles in the administration, in Washington, and after President Clinton was reelected, he was so thoughtful as to nominate me, and the Senate confirmed me to serve as our ambassador in London.

Wow. And what was that like?

Well, it was. I kept telling myself, and our daughters, this is temporary. This is temporary. Don't get too used to it. But it was. Phil really focused on the business community. I mean, obviously he did many things with the governments and had official duties, but we tried to bring as many people together among different communities in London. We entertained pretty much nonstop. And I think the informality, relative informality and mixing of people, somebody who was in the Royal Court, so to speak, sitting next to a composer, sitting next

to a trades union leader.

And they, you know, never would have met each other, frankly, in the societies in which they then lived. Our children had great opportunities, but it, you know, I had to work hard and Phil did, too, to spend enough time with them and. But I think they would say, absolutely, it was fabulous.

Well, we sought to do the job the way that the man who appointed me or nominated me would have done the job. And that is foot to the floor. It is easy to be light and to say, given the number of breakfast lunches and dinners that I had to attend or had the opportunity to participate in, that my job was really eating for my country. And occasionally, given the number of people that we entertained at the residence, that it'd be easy to say when asked, what does this job really prepare you for? To be the concierge at the Four Seasons Hotel. But that's the sideline of the job. And I really have enormous respect, particularly for the career foreign service officers, those at the State Department and other government agencies assigned to our embassies, doing the day to day work that essentially is a critical part of our nation's foreign policy. Diplomacy gets short shrift these days and it can be seen too much as trading tea and biscuits. But there is no question that the development of relationships personally between secondary, tertiary and other leaders of countries, in addition to the heads of state, critically important to trade agreements, to national security, and to the cultural advancement that we might share amongst nations.

And we were privileged to. We always took our daughters with us whenever we could. And yes, we got to travel multiple places around the world, but we especially traveled around the UK and their spring breaks. We went up to Scotland and Phil, as you may know, actually walked the distance of the country from the southernmost point to the northernmost point and the east west route, which he did with our daughter, but not consecutively every day, but every weekend he would go and they would pick up exactly where they dropped off. And so this was a way to get to know the country in a way that sometimes is not done because people focus on the cities and the leaders. But this was much more grassroots, literally.

Chris, I must say, and I don't mean this as a criticism of him, but after I had completed the north, south and east west walks across Britain, I challenged my counterpart, the British Ambassador to the United States, to do likewise. He never did.

Oh, man, how embarrassing, Phil. It makes me think it brings a whole new meaning to boots on the ground.

Right? Yeah, exactly.

Oh, that's fantastic. Wow. I didn't know that. That's amazing. I have to say, too, Phil, and I think this is correct, but correct me if I have my facts wrong, but is it correct that through all the Senate confirmations, you never had a. There was never a problem with you being confirmed for your positions?

Well, it's correct that in three Senate nominations I was confirmed unanimously each time.

Wow.

I'm very, very appreciative of that. But I have to say there was one occasion that I'll describe to you where a, a Republican senator who was opposed to an initiative of the President held up my nomination. It had nothing to do with me, but he was trying to use this to get the President's attention in order to get the President to have a modification of the proposal. And Senator Strom Thurmond, who has a colorful history, shall I say, Republican of

South Carolina,

Senator from my home state called me up and said, you come with me. And he took me down to the entry to the Senate floor, said, you watch this. He walked in, and here's Senator Thurmond, who was in his 90s. He walked up to the Senate. He grabbed him by his shoulders and he shook him. And I didn't know what he was saying, and he shook him, and the senator walked out of the room, saw me there, shook his head, and immediately changed his position and supported me.

That is pretty amazing. Oh, gosh. Well, that's maybe sort of a nice segue. Maybe we've already hit them, but you guys have had both such rich lives and such varied experiences around the world. Is there a highlight reel? And if there is, besides what you just described, what would be on the highlight reels for the two of you?

Well, Phil spent a lot more time with her, many more occasions than I did, but obviously meeting Queen Elizabeth and being with her on a few occasions. And then we hosted the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh for a dinner party at our residence that was quite. Never to be forgotten. And there are lots of things I could say about her, but first of all, she's very diminutive. She's not very tall, but she's quite lovely. She's actually very pretty. I mean, I, you know, sorry, I don't mean to be patronizing, but she's a lovely woman, and she is very quick and knowledgeable about world affairs. And the first time I saw her, as you might suspect, I'm not usually at a loss for words, but we'd only been there a month or so, and we were at the official reception, and she comes, you know, greeting. We were at the very end because we were so new. And she greets us, and I barely can get out the words, you know, thank you, your majesty. And because I was so tongue tied, because I was staring at these enormous rocks knowing that they were actually real diamonds in her jewelry. And Phil was very amused. You've never seen Tongue Tied.

Wow.

There are many more substantive things. Phil can talk about. The Northern Ireland talks, but we've just come across a picture of our daughters with Mick Jagger and his then wife. And our younger daughter is mortified that she not only was wearing braces, but in her school uniform and mistaken. So it's not something she wants to bandy about.

He was coming home from school. She walked into the Residence. And there's her dad sitting with Mick Jagger. And her jaw kind of dropped.

Just another day at work.

Hey, Mick.

Well, you'll have to send us a. You'll have to send us that picture. We'll make sure that it gets widely distributed. So do you have any others to add? What was the Irish?

The Northern Irish, when you ask? Highlights. I mean, the highlights of my wedding day would be the births of our two daughters. And everything else is worse by comparison. So, again, we've had these remarkable privileges to interact with and get to know some of the people who've been playing main roles on the stage of our times. And we've been in the lower balcony, if you will, to observe much of this. But at the same time, the importance of stuff. The most memorable, most meaningful occasions have been those personal ones.

So maybe to combine. I've got three separate questions. I'm just going to kind of lump them together, and you can feel free to respond as best seems fitting. But what's been the most challenging for each of you? The most surprising and the most rewarding?

What just in our lives in general.

Yeah. In your experiences, in your lives in general, wherever you're in it, is that you might have been. Whatever it was that you might have been doing.

Well, I often tell young people that the same problems or issues that you encounter in your work or in your professional circles are the same ones that exist at the highest levels. The personality conflicts, the. The people sort of jockeying for power. It's all there in government and in business. And, you know, there's this sense that young people seem to have that when I arrive, things will be different or they must do things differently behind those closed doors in the boardroom or whatever. But we need to really learn how to navigate the challenges of life and relationships and in our personal disciplines and everything, because that is what is going to enable us to succeed professionally as well. So that was surprising to me, frankly. You know, getting to know world leaders and realizing that they're just like the rest of us.

The toughest part, I have found, whether dealing with tenure decisions in a university or employment or dismissal situations in corporate life, strategy decisions or investment decisions or public policy discussions. Is to follow the admonition of MICA and to recognize that in the context of any of those situations, that there is a much more basic responsibility that we have. And as we're caught up with the need for ourselves or our shareholders or bondholders or for voting constituents to try to find compromises, how does one do it? With a sense of responsibility that does not shirk demonstration of one's own beliefs, but recognizes that there is no such thing as a monopoly and wisdom and that one had better heed other people's views and try to find the way that is the most beneficial common solution.

You're talking about seeking justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with their God.

Wow.

The verse he's referring to Mike, is.

Yeah, that's. Wow. That's fantastic. Well, this has been a wonderful conversation. Again, you both have been very gracious to lend time to this and to the audience. I just have a couple of last ending up questions. You both are so accomplished. You both have done so much for the world and for others. What's next? What's on the agenda? Do you guys have a bucket list or, or what's on the horizon?

I don't have a bucket list in terms of places to go. Frankly, travel is not much fun these days in my opinion. Yeah, but the bucket list I find is to really circle back with the friendships that I may not have paid enough attention to to continue to be as engaged in our daughters lives as they want, trying not to get in their way and things. But they're really such lovely people and we are very close to them and also just to seek to make to invest ourselves in the opportunities that come up and the people around us. I'm very happy to still be engaged at a church where I'm a part time pastor in Florida and to be engaged in some other similar activities, but just every day to get up and appreciate the day, be grateful for our blessings and seek how we can contribute to those who want our time, need our time, would like some mentoring or whatever it happens to be. Phil,

I look as for guidance in regard what you ask two former presidents, neither of whom are currently thought of as having been great presidents as such. But you look at George Bush 41 and Jimmy Carter and these are people who lived exemplary personal lives and their public service did not end when they stopped their main professional assignment. In many ways Jimmy Carter is the model of how one continues serving long after the name tag has been removed. And you see in George Bush as well as in President Carter how they have been able to serve locally and step up to national disasters and to be helpful in ways that never would have been predictable in other parts earlier in their lives. And so for that reason I have to say yesterday I spent several hours going through the few in the start of about 200 boxes we have in a basement as a gift to our children to try to Throw things out,

boxes of papers and books.

Oh my. The archives.

And so part of it is how does one acknowledge and relish the experience of the past? But to stay open to opportunities to be of service, to contribute in ways that we can't predict today. And some may be of a scope that some would believe significant others, just what a neighbor might be able to benefit from. And so I can't predict what's ahead. We pray for continued good health and long lives, a strong marriage, many more Renaissance weekends. But we leave to Providence or serendipity of what other things may be occurring.

And Phil mentions marriage. I have to say that we enjoy each other, I think, more than ever. I think marriages only flourish when each person figures out that the person they married is the person that this person is going to continue to be. And we can't and don't even want anymore to try to change each other. So we have really relished the increased time together.

That's wonderful. You both are such a just extraordinary people. And I feel honored to have had the opportunity to participate in a marginal kind of way at the weekends and more so to be able to get to meet both of you and have our family attend and get to meet your family. So I want to end on that note and I just want to ask you what are the best ways if our audience would like to learn more about your work and the institute?

We have a wonderful new website, www.renairanceweekend.org and we would encourage people to learn more about it. These are private events, invitation only. But individuals who are interested can find on that website ways they could let us know of their interest and be considered. But we'd be flattered by any interest individuals might have learning more.

I would say also that this so important these days more than ever to spend time talking to people who are not like us, who are different, think differently, or have different backgrounds. And I'm very encouraged to hear some of our past participants talk about the dinner parties they've organized in their communities. Just curated to bring people together to get to know each other and to transcend some of this contentious environment in which we live.

Building bridges is what it's all about.

Yeah, that's good. And again, you both are the world leaders in modeling that, I think. And it's nice to hear that people are doing those kinds of things to then bring them to their local communities. Well, Ambassador, later. And Linda, thank you so much for the time today. I very much appreciate it. And it sounds like like we've got another call coming in, so I appreciate the time and look forward to seeing you in an upcoming weekend.

Thank you Chris.

Bye bye. Living a Life In Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Not LLC assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout. To learn more, stop by our website A lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks and until next time.