006. How Intelligent Tracking Prevention Impacts Marketers and Advertisers

Hi everyone, Emil Garcia from Boundify. I'm really happy to be here today with a couple of good friends, Tim and Robbie. I will introduce them later on today we are going to talk about recent changes on Safari 14 and intelligent tracking prevention. I think that's the name of the feature and what it might mean for markers and advertiser. So really excited to have these great guys here and I will start with you Tim. Little introduction and then Robby and then if you agree guys, we can dive right into the topic of you know, at least what we know and what it means and will be awesome we're having you here.

Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. So as Emilio said, my name is Tim Lawy. I'm the founder of Tip Top Search and Marketing. We focus on primarily on SEO and with that it's everything from the technical side of SEO through to content strategy, working with several national brands, e commerces and then today kind of syncing up with partners like Emilio that we do paid work with and new things that are always impacting the marketing world.

Awesome. Thank you Tim and Robbie, if you mind presenting yourself, that would be awesome.

Hi everyone, I'm Robby Fitzwater. I don't have video on today and commuting from one place to another so not necessarily safe to do that with video on. But again have worked in marketing for about 12 years now. Started off mainly in the social space, building communities, growing communities and working with clients to kind of grow in social media. Kind of moved into the e commerce space in the last two or three years and have just kind of been working with different clients mainly on email on the e commerce side and also work at teach at Clemson University in the MBA program. So a little bit of everything and just enjoy marketing as a field. So excited to get to talk, excited to get to talk shop about it today.

Awesome. Couldn't be more excited. The three of us and Laura, we get together and have these long coffee conversations from time to time now with the COVID and all but we really enjoyed the time and I'm really happy to kind of like recreate this on the show. So let us dive in right away on the topic. This all started with a conversation or an email thread that team started a few days ago with the recent update on iOS and depending on what you're going to share today, Tim, I think it's something that been brewing over the years from Apple. Right. And from the industry over in general. And it's been for me it's been a back and forth between privacy and obviously measurement and attribution on marketing efforts and performance. But anyway, it made the news and it kind of like have some implications for sure. So what I intend today is to hear or learn from what, you know, Tim's perspective as an SEO expert, from Rob's perspective and what I know so far and kind of like between the three of us, see where is this heading? So, Tim.

Yeah, so there's a few things that, you know, for, for myself when I say that I'm thinking more so my clients and whenever you, you think around marketing or any good digital marketer should always be thinking holistically. So from an SEO standpoint, it doesn't stop what I do. But whenever I start working with partners like yourself, where there's a paid strategy, and especially in E commerce, where paid can be in a very effective method of quickly driving traffic to the store, getting those conversions and leveraging the content that's created, all of a sudden we're generating these new leads through content, but are they able to retarget them in the same way with paid or is that now something that's being inhibited through the tracking? And again, I think privacy is extremely important to the user. But this case it's something where Apple is essentially defaulting those terms on the user versus some form of opting into it, versus maybe you know, other browsers where those privacy methods exist but the user has to go in and basically turn on that functionality. So it's, it's a different approach to it. I'm thinking more from around that perspective of the retargeting and what can that look like and will that impact somebody's conversions and sales that they could be getting out of content or some of those other traffic driving methods that aren't necessarily firsthand conversion pieces of content versus like going to a product page or something like that. So that's where I've been trying to research around and it's still, it's on that edge of just being still new enough where a lot of people don't fully have the answer as to what that might look like. And the other side of it is what percentage of the site's traffic is actually coming from Safari. So that's the other area to look at because if the traffic coming to the site is 95% Chrome users, then it's not going to impact you. But if it's a client, and I have one specifically that is very Apple heavy with their traffic from iOS mobile devices, Safari browsers, so they're just using the out of the box Mac or iPhone and for them, you know, if they have 50% of their traffic coming from those sources, is that going to impact their paid campaigns and the performance going forward from here? So yeah, I push that over to you guys. Help me out here.

That's great. That's great. Now I want to start from, from a user perspective because that's how I usually frame these kind of changes for advertisers. And you will tell me if you agree or not. Just to have a little bit of context we are talking about. The part that I think mattered the most is that just as any other thing in the Internet and in the marketing world, cookies started in a good way, right. They had a very valid purpose and they still do, which is if I go to a website and I do some things, especially as you were saying, e Commerce, it's a nice thing to be able to put something on the card or to log in or to visit some pages and the website being able to remember what I did and kind of like take it from there and start doing things. However, because all that technology, it was I think at the moment just putting some text on the browser, on the computer, very open and not that regulated. I guess then it deviated into something else, which is, I think is the haste of the matter here, which is now I have this website that is tracking my behavior on the website, which is good, but if I go to another one, then. Then they start tracking you too, right? And for me that is kind of like the point that Apple is trying to make is bringing awareness as when it happens to secure website, right? Some companies have them and some didn't. But the moment that you start putting a padlock there on green or putting a red signal, then you make the user aware of it. And that's pretty much what's going on. Is a lot of people, I think they are not aware of the fact that websites are tracking their behaviors. And some of them might say, and I'm on the fence on this, I want to be tracked. Because if I'm going to see any ads at all, I want to see ads that are relevant for me or just random ones. That's one thing that you will lose if you lose track. You will still see ads. The only difference is that might be completely unrelated to you and I have a say on that anyway. But I think that this change, what is bringing is awareness. And the other thing that it's doing is like giving the user the power to decide if they want to be tracked and at what level. I think that's one Part of the conversation for sure. However, if there's any indication of what's going to happen in the future, I think very similar to some things that I've seen on the past. At the time I didn't know why, but for some months now, maybe a year, I have seen for example from Facebook this suggestion from their Pixel implementation to move the pixel from a third party to, to a first party cookie. Because part of the rules are if, if, if your cookie is a first party cookie, meaning the domain that is referenced form comes from your, you know, from the website that you're visiting, then the rules are slightly different, at least for now. That's what I understand. So they have been preparing the kind of like the answer from, from, from months ago. The same with Google I think if you can, if you can put information about the user from on the URL on the query or send the information back to the servers and you don't store it on the computer, I think you're still allowed to do that. So I think whatever little window or opportunity is left, Google and Facebook are going to take it. So I don't know Robby, from your point of view, especially from the E commerce side, do you have any things.

That you see so, so in a 10,000 foot view I like when I learning about this and hearing where it's coming from. It kind of seems like it's part of a larger positioning strategy for Apple in the last like few years where it seems like a lot of different platforms and a lot of the larger tech companies around are kind of planting their flag in one particular space and it seems like Apple is really kind of digging in on privacy. Like Apple wants to be the like who you think of when you think of privacy in a digital space and they're really moving in pretty strong direction towards that and kind of like to Tim's point where it's going to be the default browser for most mobile devices. If you're living in the United States and you have over and you earn over a certain amount per year, you're likely using an iPhone. So it's really going to impact a lot of people because when they have their default browser settings they're not really going to change them. Some people who use the devices more consistently and know what other technologies are around but the standard out of the box users likely going to use those kind of out of the box default settings. In trying to understand this, privacy is becoming a bigger and bigger concern for a lot of people. I think there's a lot of skepticism and kind of a reason for it in a lot of different areas across the Internet because people's privacy has been abused in some cases and it's kind of coming into the limelight a little bit more now. So I think that's going to be something that people want to be aware of and Apple's kind of taking the first steps in kind of trying to, trying to position themselves as a leader in the privacy space because they're selling a hardware product that they want to, they want people to feel secure with as opposed to people listening to their conversations on their phone. From the marketing perspective it's really fascinating.

Because I think it puts a lot.

Of onus on marketers to really step up their game. Kind of like Emilio, you mentioned from a first party data perspective it's gonna make everybody have to kind of work a little bit harder. I think we're gonna see a little bit more emphasis placed on an owned own strategy. So how do you build an audience and maintain that audience when you can't retarget as easily or can't I kind of follow them around as easily. So you're going to have to have to have a few different listening posts and a few different ways to gather data, to gather insights and then to hopefully communicate with those current and prospective customers on a consistent basis. Again, coming from the email side, I think it's a fascinating space because ideally if you can get that person's email, you can communicate with them all you want. There are some other things that are going to make it a little bit tougher in some cases, but I think it's going to put more pressure on businesses to really understand how their funnel works top and to capture some kind of information, some data and then ideally work to manage that relationship in a longer term. I think I mentioned this to someone else earlier too. I think it's going to take businesses, I think putting more emphasis on a really strong lead magnet so they can convert that traffic earlier in that process. If they only get one or two shots, they want to do that early. So with less opportunity for, for affordable traffic coming back in, I think they're more emphasis put on that lead magnet. So maybe paying a little bit higher acquisition cost and really trying to maximize that lifetime value on the other.

Yeah.

Oh, I think, I think Robbie, you're breaking up a little bit. Do you hear him?

Well, timing in and out, especially on.

E commerce space which is grow. One second. I apologize. Let me mute myself. Let me work on trying to get back into audio through calling in and.

However Something that you mentioned is, relates pretty well in the advertising world to, you know, to the email analogy that you use there. Like all the spam rules, right? And having permission from the user to send an email. If not you are sent to the spam folder and being able to unsubscribe. I think that while it will hurt for a little while, at the end of the day it creates a better experience for everyone, not just for the user, but also for the, you know, for the marketer and the advertisers. Because when you get people on your funnel that opt in right to your communications, then you get engaged people and that that will happen again. It's. I know that it might sound crazy, but some people might end up saying, you know, I rather have targeted ads that random ads and those few that decide that they want to see something that is more personalized even when they are. Because for me there are two parts of the issue is one thing is you are tracking me to personalize and better offer and offer me better things that are really, you know, relevant to me. But the order. The other portion is however I really want you to. I really want the companies or the platforms from prevent the advertiser to actually not know who I am, but to pinpoint a person, right. So it's got to be diffused. And I think that can be accomplished so some level somehow, right? How do you have this best of the two worlds? I want something that is relevant, but without losing privacy, right? Without exposing everything in front of, you know, a stranger kind of thing. So I think that that's going to. What's going on happening is that the user experience will be improved because now you will have either people that are really looking for personalized advertising or not at all. And the other thing that it changes is timing, which is part of the rules too. Because I can tell you, right, I can tell you from my own experience in Google Display, in display ads, you can retarget someone for 540 days, right? That's. And I've never done it right, never run a remarketing campaign for that, but you could and someone is doing it right. So that makes no sense. If you want to remarket someone because they put something on the cart, yeah, you remarket them for 7 days, 14 days, 30 days top after that, you gotta stop that sale is not gonna happen right now. You're hurting the brand, actually, if you keep doing it, you just wait for the user to re engage and then you have another shot. And I think that's also part of the changes is limiting the. You know, if someone visit a website and visit it again the next day, then you still have the option to remarket. But if they just stop, then you should do the same.

Yeah. Do you think on so E Commerce the short remarketing span makes sense where it's like you know, two, three, four days. If the person hasn't popped on it, odds are they've either went on to another brand and purchased or they've decided they don't want it. But on B2B which is a side that you do a lot of, there's obviously a much longer cycle to the sale. So that display ad that shows periodically over the next three months, if it's something that typically has a six or nine month cycle to get a sale, is that going to hurt for B2B type advertisements?

You know, you kind of like guessed. The other portion of the conversation that I wanted to say is the other thing that I believe is going to happen is that, well, you know, the user is going to have a better experience. They will not be followed that much and they will not feel this awkward feeling of, you know, someone is following me around. Definitely. I think for the short term the advertiser are going to suffer because they will lose data. However, the ones that are going to have a better time I think actually are the platforms. Because now that you mentioned display, that's a good example. Back in the day in display, usually your knobs were the website domain and the content that you had on the website. You had little information about the person that was on the website to see the banner. And especially the part that is the more important is if they were in buying mode. For B2B for example, it's important, right? Because the buying decision is long. So you really want to know if that person is right now looking for a CRM. Because if they are not, it doesn't matter how many banners you show up, they will not be engaged. So I think nowadays platforms like Google and Facebook and LinkedIn have gone very good at measuring behavior and they do that internally on their own platforms, right. If they have information from the websites from third parties that are great, but I think they are sourcing data from many other sources. And for example, for Google in display nowadays usually you have more success with something called custom intent, which is kind of like looking back on the search history of a user. And if they have the keywords that matter to you, then the kind of website that they are in or if they have visited your website in the past passes to a Second role, right. Because I will be more interested on someone that is actively searching for a B2B product right now, even if they have not visited the website, than someone that had visited the website but is not really searching for the product anymore.

So here's just kind of throwing another loop in there. So I'm going to use Semrush for the sake of it. So it's a tool that many marketers use. I pay for it, I've been using it for years. But some reason I always see their ads. So for some companies, the display ads can also position them defensively. So if they're retargeting or following you around, it's preventing potentially one of their competitors. If you've read content from an Ahrefs blog or something like that, and Ahrefs is only doing seven days of following you around, whereas Semrush is there for months, does that. Then even though I'm not going to click on it, it's just making them have the appearance of they're the bigger brand because they are just every site that you go to, they're constantly there. And even though I'm with them, they just. It's that brand exposure over and over and over and again just kind of coming from a different viewpoint. Not that I think that it's right. I get more frustrated with than I do not because I'm like, what a waste that they're spending this. But at the same time, there's that brand exposure sizing and that's on the B2B, not so much on, you know, if you go to Nike, see a pair of shoes, and for two days they'll follow me around and then they're gone.

No, it's. And, you know, I think changes like this has been a wild ride on advertising. And I don't know if you see the same on SEO, but I think the lure at the beginning of digital advertising, when things like tracking and measurement and attribution were something that digital brought to the table that traditional advertising couldn't. A lot of focus went into attribution and therefore the importance of remarketing and pinpointing, you know, if it's a customer or not. So it was really focused. It is still really focused on performance. But I've been following some podcasts and all that, and I think that if not, if it's not flipping, at least there's some return on, especially on digital, on doing branding. Right. Because what I have seen so far is that sometimes it's justified to retarget a customer or someone that is actively looking, you know, actively using the product. Just because you wouldn't consider in that effort performance. It's just going to be branding. Right. I want to be present and, you know, kind of like you said, instilling the opportunity for the competition to show off a banner. So it's defensive in that way. And I have seen it more so. I think that what cookies and general tracking brought at the table initially was the promise of attribution. And I think as the tools evolve and privacy matters more, what digital will promise, it will be more about a lot of segmentation, but not certainly, you know, not necessarily that exact attribution that you had on the past before, you know, everyone was aware that, hey, wait, to have that attribution, I need to be followed around all the time. And the. That I think is going to be less and less common as the time by. But we will not lose the idea of a banner for your eyes. You know, a lot of things can happen to things like display or tracking on Facebook or LinkedIn, but because we keep using their tools for free, they keep profiling us. And the promises is still there. Even if you cannot, Even if you cannot follow someone through, you know, every website along months, you still have that segmentation that allows you to show a billboard to just a handful of people. And I think that's how it's gonna evolve. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah. I also. One other part, and Ravi had mentioned this, was, you know, Apple is very much, they're using privacy as part of their marketing, which is their thing to set themselves apart. But it's done in a way where, again, I want to be clear that I'm all for privacy. I think that there's a level of where marketing can become creepy, and at that stage, nobody likes it. But at the same time, when something like this is pushed out, but there's no. Almost like there's no conversation between them and Google, it's like each person kind of becomes their own island where they don't communicate. So it's like, okay, now you figure out how to make this work on your end. And I feel a little bit where it's like whenever they pushed out the iOS 14, but none of the developers had noticed, like, hey, by the way, you got to get your apps up to date because we're rolling it out in 12 hours from now. It's the same kind of thing where it's like, hey, the new browser is now out ahead of the actual operating system. And by the way, Google, you don't have all your ducks in a row for this to work for people on your platform. So I feel like it's an interesting way whether it's their effort to force Google and marketing into how they see that it should be done or if it's them working on something in the background which ultimately they might roll out as a thing. And that's just going down a different, a different direction. But whether or not Apple might start offering, you know, a better advertising alternative for Safari again, my mind goes down rapid response. No, no, no.

But you mentioned something really relevant because it's true. So far we have saying we have been talking about, you know, the impact for the user for us and Rayner uses and you do have the impact for the advertisers that will have to come up with new ways to target and acquire data and then you have the impact for the platforms like Google and Facebook. But we are forgetting someone and the other group is the publishers. Right. Where the ads are displayed. And so yeah, I think that's a huge impact too because they are forced to kind of like, if not completely change, at least revise their business models. Right. Creator of content that rely on advertising. And I believe that one of the good things about remarketing is that because you wanted specific people doesn't matter what website they are, then you pay premium for that audience on whatever site they are. Right. So it's my guess that good website that attract a lot of people were able to command higher bidding.

Right.

On the ads versus random website. They have not that good audience and now that's going to change. And the same goes for apps. If advertising dollars go away from apps on iPhone then they will have to revise their models. Definitely.

For sure.

And I have seen some good ones, good and bad. Right. At the end of the day someone gotta pay.

Yeah. I feel again all of the platforms and Robby, you might be able to refresh me but Robby gave me a book and it's essentially it was looking at like Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Google. So basically like the four giants that are out there and how each of them ultimately are eating into each other to basically steal share from all different things. And in this case you know, you talked about the publishers. So Apple has Apple News and they have Apple News plus. So if publishers start to lose revenue because they're not able to have the display ads working in the proper way, does that onboard more publishers to Apple News plus because then they get a revenue stream that comes from Apple News plus and it can then be targeted to Apple users based upon the preferences that you set for the feeds that you want within news and everything else. So again, I don't want to sound like conspiracy theorist, but I also feel like whenever Google, Apple or any of those large companies do something, there's a longer term intentionality as to why they done that. And it may be the privacy is their big thing, but there's also something that's going to loop you more into their ecosystem in some way that as a user you become either more dependent on them and marketers then have to become more dependent upon new methods, platforms or whatever it might be to reach that user. So again, I, I can't recall the name of the book. Robbie lent it to me. It's like a thousand pages long and it's really good.

I'm intrigued. Robbie, do you hear us? Do you know the name of the book or you remember it? I don't know if you hear us.

Yeah, I'm not sure if he's still disconnected from going down the road there.

But, but it's true because for example, the same can be said for games, right?

Yeah.

Now that Google have Apple have Apple Arcade, it's a possible route for game developers that do not have the muscle to build their own, you know, buy our coins or whatever you have on our ecosystem, kind of like Fortnite and they don't have the dollars to build that and they are losing revenue from ads. Then they might jump into Apple Arcade where they might get a cut of if you know someone.

Yeah, so, yeah, so, so can you.

Guys, can you guys hear me now?

Yeah, we can hear you now. No idea what you heard, but I.

Joined, I joined through, I tried to dial in through my phone and for whatever reason I was muted. I was trying to chime in there.

I was about to.

I don't want to get off the road.

Help me here.

Okay, so the book, the book is called the Four. It's by Scott Galloway and it really talks about how each one of those large businesses, like they really are trying to own their particular niche. But then because they're publicly traded companies, they have to grow. So when they're looking at spaces to grow, they really need to find a way to expand. And like, to your point, Tim, like Apple's really trying to build out their media ecosystem because at the moment they're not as developed as a Google, as a Facebook. They don't have that direct to consumer relationship the same way through media that Amazon, Facebook or Google does. So they're probably trying to build that out really, really strong right now because they see that Amazon prime reoccurring revenue that's coming into businesses that have that consistent reoccurring revenue. And they want that because they need that to grow as a publicly traded company, they have to have a certain return and certain growth every quarter over quarter. So they really need to kind of swing for the fences and bring on some sort of reoccurring revenue. So it does make perfect sense that they would be kind of focusing on their media offering more. And then also because they kind of want to build their own little walled garden. They never like Apple. Spotify never works on Apple products the way you want it to, or Audible never works on Apple products the way you want it to because they, Apple has their own version of that that they want to focus on as opposed to, as opposed to a different ecosystem. So as much as they can lock people into those specific ecosystems and keep them there. So if they can lock people into a Apple media ecosystem, then people are, then that's extremely valuable for them as an organization. Sorry, I could go on a rant.

And I'm sorry, no, no, it's, it's good. And again, it's a. I, like I said, I don't want to sound like conspiracy theorist, but I always feel like whenever large organizations make moves like those kind of things, there's a greater, a greater reason as to why they've done it. And privacy is obviously what they're staking themselves on, but is it to drive people further into their ecosystem because they feel safer? So then do they turn to their platform for Apple news and other things? And that shifts how publishers then reach audiences, how they advertise, how they do things versus the traditional marketing routes. And the same can be said with Google. And another shout out to Robby. It was, I think, a Seth Godin podcast that you turned me on too, but it was the do no evil one where it talked about all the different iterations of Google over the years where, you know, that turn people onto RSS feeds and then once everybody gets into it, they chop them off once they've captured everybody else in another system. So that's another great one. And again, it's those small incremental movements of how large companies determine how you consume and receive things that ultimately change, you know, in the space of five years. It's something small now, but five years from now that could determine how people are consuming content from Apple just based upon how they get used to consuming and what they expect from privacy and the ecosystem that they Receive it in. So again, going out there, maybe on a limb a little bit, but something to think over.

Yeah. Have you guys read or heard about another great book? It's called. I think it's called. The name is the Switch. I'd read it many years ago.

Switch by Chip and Dan Heath, the.

One that talks about how the radio started very open and then the telephone systems and then, you know, TV broadcasting is. This rings a bell.

It's kind of like the evolution of media and the conception, I think. Yeah. And yeah, I think it gradually. It gradually evolves and changes and like we're kind of the frogs in the pot. We really don't see it necessarily boiling around us, but I think it's always. It's always changing and evolving for us. And that's one on the other end of the spectrum, like, as marketers, like, we have these challenges and we have these changes that we're always forced to kind of like, reevaluate things and like, kind of in a lot of ways burn it to the ground and build it back up again. Because you can never really get comfortable or complacent because it's always going to change. And large organizations are going to make big moves like this. That kind of force you force a little bit of pain in the short term, but probably a lot of growth in the long term too.

Yes.

The whole point of that book is that again, not sounding like the future is laid out, but the tenant is that this has happened before. That, for example, if you take radio at the beginning was an open world where everybody could, in theory, put up a radio station and start sharing, you know, their ideas and broadcasting kind of like around. And as more and more people got into then government companies and users started to ask for regulation because, you know, if you have two bands, you don't want someone competing on the same radio spectrum for their audience, for example. And then you start creating these barriers of entry and then something that start open, start to privatize and be dominated by a few companies. So I think the Internet is going through that same process. It started as an experiment, something very open where everybody could go anywhere. And then you start building the first directories. And now there's a big portion of it that nobody knows because your access through the Internet comes from a handful of companies. And some people nowadays, I have seen this more and more when they think I'm going to start a business and they think about online, their first thought is not, I got to get a website, it's just, I will build a Facebook page. Right. Or even just start a Facebook group because, you know, the barrier of entry on what the old way of setting up a website gets bigger and you are lacking the audience because you don't have access to the directory. So you are seeing this privatization or kind of like closing the openness and more and more control over a handful of companies. And I think the idea of the book is that it happened in the past, it might happen this time, probably, but a new medium will come, something that will again will be the Wild west, and everybody will start experimenting.

Yeah, you kind of see this. You kind of see it as like a microcosm of like social networks where they're always there, always something new and something evolving, and eventually that platform matures and where it becomes kind of a stable platform. But early days, it is wild, wild west and just everything goes. And it's kind of fascinating to see kind of maybe the Internet as a whole, it probably takes a lot longer, but maybe reaching that level of maturity and kind of our ways to get access to the Internet, they're through Apple devices, they may be through Google Chrome. Like they. They kind of not own the Rails, but they own access to a lot of our access to the Internet in a lot of ways.

And think of our kids, right? The way that they see the Internet is through the App Store and right through. Through. And the way they. They see how you get content, it's not that you go around and look for any anywhere you go to a few places, you go to Netflix, you go to YouTube. It's in their mind. There's just a handful of channels where you can source content. While we grew up thinking, well, there's a whole new, you know, there's a whole bunch of places that I can go to get ideas. So, yeah, I think that's going on a little bit. And unfortunately we don't see it. But these little changes kind of like stir up. We ask ourselves for this kind of like, you know, confinement because of fears like, you know, I don't want to be. I'm not saying that not being followed is bad. It's just that the way. The more that you want to regulate what you see, then you have to scale up the intervention from government and also corporations and just a natural thing to happen.

Yeah, and that's probably a long way away. Yeah, we. This got really deep really quickly. This went from Safari 14 to like, how to manage the Internet, like solving global problems all in one.

While you guys were thinking about that again, I went back to like, the big Publishers and this is kind of like the second. Well, they get hit with a lot of big things. But it was what, like eight months ago. Google changed how they wanted links to be done from the large publishers. So like if you're linking out and somebody's paying for a link in your site, there's like the rel sponsored. So like you have to put like a sponsor tag. So again for publishers, like the display ad portion is going to be difficult for a period. And then the change in that it changes how people then, you know, would have paid to have content on a site because that no longer has value, which ultimately for the user, which the. We all want to serve the user well. But all these changes do make for a better end platform. But for internal marketing teams and external marketing teams that work on these sites and handle everything from how do we manage links and how do we monetize these sites? It just is a totally different way to start thinking around how do you do that? Because it's now on the paid and affiliate side of things as well.

So yeah, yeah, like again, they're going to have to evolve their business models fast and change really quickly because suddenly what cash cow doesn't really work as well. Yeah, but it seems like a lot of those, a lot of large publishers have been making moves in those directions too. I know, it's like a buzzfeed. Buzzfeed Media has been changing and evolving really fast and even some larger publishers like NBC is trying to create like a really content and commerce focus.

So yeah, yeah, I've seen some of that too. Again, I think it's all good for the users. It just means that there's more for again, marketers, internal teams, large publishers, even, you know, smaller, smaller publishers. If you have a WordPress blog and you update it to the most recent version and you click on a link, you now have so many options as to how you want that link to open. Do you want it to be, you know, follow. No follow Sponsored, not sponsored. There's all these different tags that you can choose between. Now where it used to just be like, you know, open in a new tab or not. Now it's like, what does half of this mean for, you know, small businesses that click on it and they just don't even know what half of that stuff is now.

Yeah, very well. Well, I'm really, really happy that we have explored this topic. And I had just predicted or guessed we went, as Robbie were saying, Europe from safari to global domination. But I really enjoyed the time, guys. And hopefully this is not going to be the last time that we spoke together and shared about other things that are interesting in the marketing world. I had a great time and I hope our.

Thanks, Emilio.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you for this, Emilio. Every time we have these conversations, I feel like I'm shot out of a marketing can. And I'm just excited to do good work and share ideas. So thank you very much for this.

Thank you guys, everyone. Have a great afternoon and see you in the next episode. Have a good day.