066. The Future of Marketing with Jeff Whitlock, Grain

Foreign. Hello everyone, this is Emilio Garcia at Boundify. Welcome to another episode of the Man Gen Studio. And with me as always is Miranda Jenkins. How are you, Miranda? I'm good. Awesome. Having a good Friday I hope everyone. And today we are having a conversation with a couple of members of the team at Grain. A conversation a platform and sales intelligence, if I recall. Well, company that we, we closely work with for our own work at Boundify. With me is Jeff Whitlock, CEO and Kamaran Walker Walker, growth marketer. How are you guys?

Great. Excited to be here. Super great, thanks for having us.

Awesome. So, well, I'll start right away. Jeff and Cameron, would you mind? You know I will start with you Jeff. Tell me a little bit about yourself, about your obviously your role at Grain and you know, how has been the evolution for you during the company and, and from there diving a little bit today on how in particular Grain, you know, works around growth marketing and you know, hopefully we can dabble at even your own demand generation tactics or strategies, the ones that you feel comfortable sharing for.

Of sure, yeah, of course. So name is Jeff. I'm the CEO of Grain. My background is I've been doing startups for six, six, seven years now and prior to that I was a product manager and started my career in consulting. As far as what, what is Grain doing primarily for Demand Gen are two primary, primary channels are SEO and also what we call some combination of word of mouth and casual contact. So word of mouth is basically, you know, people have a good experience and tell others to try Grain and then casual contact is. Grain is a AI note taker and so it'll join calls and people will get the, the summaries after the calls and oftentimes they'll say oh this is a really nice summary and they'll sign up from seeing those summary. So, so as people have meetings, they actually expose other people to Grain and that's also a driver of, of our, of our signups.

Good. Yeah. And I think diving right away into, you know, the one big portion that you mentioned, which is SEO, just tell me in your experience maybe from these and other companies or consulting that you have done, how do you think has evolved over the years and I think particularly now with the rise of AI, what do you think have change and will continue to change and what things haven't changed and will be continued to be relevant. It doesn't matter what happens with technology down the road?

Well, I think we're in a real, I mean I think we're in a pretty interesting time period. Of flux in SEO. And I wouldn't argue that we've figured it out or that I know what's going to happen, but clearly something big is happening with all the AI tools that are effectively functioning as a replacement for Google Search. It used to be like, I think, you know, I threw out a number 99% of the time when someone had a question they would ask it through Google.

Right.

My guess is that's, I mean it's still probably a pretty high percentage, but it's probably eroded pretty dramatically in the last year and I can only imagine that momentum gaining or that that trend gaining steam. So with tools like perplexity obviously and ChatGPT and Claude and there's all these other tool that are arguably better than Google for ask answering direct questions that you need the answers to. I still think so. So the way I think this is going, and obviously Google knows this is a problem because they've responded by adding their own little like what are those called AI like their overviews. Overviews I think are worse in many cases actually because they still have to like their business model is people clicking on links and so they can't make the overview so good that you know that they need.

Yes, compromise.

Yeah, exactly. So they've got some really, some conflicting incentives here like classic innovators dilemma type stuff. So they're in, they're in a challenging spot. And so I think for like direct questions like you know, what, what was the, you know, what's, what's the best, you know, what's the tool that does this or what's the capital of, you know, Turkey or whatever. Like things that are just very obvious. I think it's very AI's superior to Google to get answers. I find myself almost never using Google to get answers to question that there's like a clear answer to. So I think my, my belief is that a lot of SEO is going to move more towards the middle of the funnel type stuff or, and different types of queries like queries where you're looking like you're, you are truly searching for a bright, a broad array of opinions or a perspective from different people on a, on a, on a, on a question or you're looking for options, potential ways to solve a problem. I think these things will be still relevant and relevant SEO, but I think that's a lot of this like top of funnel mass keyword, generic type of, you know, here are 17 tools you can use to do blah blah, blah. Like I, I'm not sure that, I'm not sure that's going to be as effective as it has been historically.

Yeah, I, I agree that the, the strategy overall will change in the short term on some of the tactics, especially the type of content that you write. They will go to middle of the funnel instead of, you know, the, the questions that overview. But probably just ChatGPT and other AI tools will actually answer for users without even links as you said, or references maybe to the sources. I, we've been discussing, Miranda and I this with you know, prospects and clients for a long time and I. Part of the question that I made, hopefully you agree on this one, is that also it's important to look at the fundamentals, right? The part that doesn't change even when technology is moving. I am of the belief that especially for marketers just like myself, that we got into marketing at the moment that digital was ramping up, that we connected the, the goals of marketing with those of the, the things that you can accomplish on, on digital and never question the foundation of it. Right. Let me put you an example of what I mean is when you say SEO, I'm, I'm assuming that you grain has a source of content, right? Some place where you express your point of view. It can be your blog, it can be a podcast like we were doing right now. It can be a series of videos and that you use SEO as a way of distributing that content. In this particular case, when someone searched for it, they will find one of those pieces. But the whole point of it has always been to present the brand for the first time to someone that is not aware of you guys. Right?

Yeah.

So I think that that was a very valid exchange between non buyers and the brand for a long time. Right. Because that was pretty much the deal, right. If I'm not paying for showing up the brand in front of someone, then expose the brand in exchange for you getting out of it a valuable piece of information. But now that changing, right? Because now you can get that valuable information without exposing a brand through AI. So we will have to figure it out how we continue to use content and other distribution channels. Because that's my view, right? That SEO is just another distribution channel even when we don't think it of it. You know, it's not as clear as you went say social when it's clearly a distribution channel for everybody. And for us, SEO it isn't, but truly it is. It's just a distribution channel that is failing because or to some extent, you know, it's not working as well to some of the queries and we will have to concentrate. So dealing into that, how do you see your own strategy evolving? Would you, are you thinking concerned, you know, focusing more on social. Are you exploring order like intent places like Reddit or other places where there's also intent? To some extent. But, but AI is still not using, I guess.

Yeah, I mean it's a good point. I think, I think this is still very much an open question for us. We're still seeing positive results on the SEO front, more traditional SEO and so I don't think we're gonna abandon it but I think we do recognize that we need to potentially change the approach and also augment with other things. So it's interesting cause like I think a lot of the times we live on the front of these trends and sometimes we tend to over. I know I've been guilty of this, like tend to overestimate their impact and, and things that are really like 10 year trends we assume are two year trends or three year trends. And so kind of feel like SEO is maybe in that, in that ballpark where like I still think traditional SBO is going to work well and work for a while and especially when you recognize that there's still going to be I think a lot of opportunity in sort of middle, middle, middle funnel content. But I do think that at the same time, you know, you gotta be, you gotta be thoughtful about, about like augmenting and changing the approach. What's interesting is we're actually seeing, I mean it's still very small volume but we actually, cause we actually, cause we asked people who try grain like where did you hear about us? We're actually for the first time seeing AI pop up in those answers in non trivial ways. And so we've been, we've been asking ourselves like how do, how do we, how do we do this? Like how do you, how do you do SEO for these, for AI? And that's, that's an interesting thing which I think obviously there's some initial thoughts out there on but I don't think it's something that like we're in the very early innings of.

Yes. Now I have a question that is it was going to be fantastic. Jeff and camera. Because I have both the, the, the, the marketer and the, the person that the marketer has to at least show some value from their efforts in the same conversation. So let me tell you another thing that I feel is going to be challenging for the next few years and how you are thinking about it is yes, you will have to adapt. But the other thing that I feel all marketers got trained on from the early success of, you know, SEO tactics and Google and all that. There was a very crystal clear, clear attribution. I'm doing all these blog pieces, people are visiting the website, I can see they're coming from Google and we're getting more opportunities and all that. And that's in, that's changing a little bit now because you will have to believe, if you want to call it that way. Right. That all these answers that you're providing that are not getting any clicks are positioning the brand. Right. So I, I understand that at least from our audience, that's a struggle for marketers and demand generation practitioners in general because their bosses want to still see some, you know, you know, how do you show that you're, that what we are doing is working, how you guys are adapting to that. Right. Recognizing that the play, you know, the playbook is changing but at the same time trying to strike a balance between, you know, we know that we are doing things that are, are, are having impact on people like when they see the logo of brain on, on zoom conversation, that kind of impact. But at the same time we cannot measure it as directly anymore.

Yeah, I mean I'm not sure the perfect people to answer this question because we're still so, we're still so early and, but I'll tell you, we just do a lot of bottom of funnel attribution. That's really what we rely on. I feel like top of funnel attribution has always been hard to do well and to not do it in a way that's misleading. Um, like, cause you're always saying like okay, was this the first touchpoint attribution or was this the second touch point or et cetera, et cetera. And so at our stage, just given, just given the complexity to do top of funnel attribution well and accurately, we honestly just rely heavily on bottom of the funnel. Meaning we ask our users where, where did you hear about grain? And, and, and the way I think about it is yeah, there's probably some inaccuracy there because you know, maybe they don't remember or, or, or maybe they're not always, maybe they're skipping the question or not giving. But my, my, the way I, what I believe about it is like more often than not like the vast majority of users tell you the truth there and what they remember is what mattered. So that's, so it really simplifies a lot of assumptions when you do it that way.

Nice. The self reported attribution. Okay, all right. And now, now that you mentioned at the stage that you are, if you can illuminate a little bit on the stage that you are right now. But the question that I have following on that one is I'm of the belief that very early startups are doing a ton of marketing without calling that way, just, you know, by the conversations they have with potential investors and, you know, talking about potential employees and kind of like the ecosystems where the growth and it's a certain size when they truly can support a more, you know, massive effort like creating content and distribution on social media or, you know, SEO and all that. How do you have navigated that, Jeff, in the past? When, when do you know is the right time to say, well, we've been growing nice with this word of mouth, talking about the product, people organically doing that as they use the product, and now we need to start doing something more intentional. How, how that happened for you guys?

Yeah, it's a good, it's a good point. So to answer your question on, like, where we're at, it's like, so we're at a few million of ARR this next year. You know, hope, hope to reach, you know, hope to reach to double or so. So growing well and, but still kind of on the, on the smaller side. And so I guess small is relative. I mean, when I first started as a, As a startup CEO, I would have been stoked to get to 1 million. And now we're at a few and we're like, oh, we're still too small. Let's go. We got to get to 10. So 10 is 10 is the next milestone for us. So to answer your second question about, like, when did we realize was the time? It's actually interesting because we kind of hired a, we hired a marketer who was kind of one of those, like, humble and hungry folks where we're just like, oh, bring it in. And then we didn't really manage them that closely because we were kind of doing other things. And this, this, this young guy just basically built out our SEO and just kind of doing it himself, trial and error through like, basically like two years of just kind of dinking around himself on it and ended up building some, some initial foundations that worked really, really well. And so it was really organic for us because we're like, oh, hey, this SEO went from nothing to a pretty substantial, you know, source of site traffic for us. And, you know, the traffic isn't as good as the traffic we get through our casual contact and word of mouth, but it's still it's still, you know, drives a healthy portion of our signups. And so that gave us, that gave us the confidence to invest in it more and keep investing in it. So it's very like organic and not like that strategic to be honest.

All right, and now follow, following up on that one. And as you said, right. Size is relative, you know, but, and it might not apply to you, but my little understanding of the ecosystem, I understand that, you know, funding gets added to the company to some step when you are bootstrapping and all that. And I'm sure there's some expectation, if not pressure from your investors to make sure that you have an engine of growth. Right. And kind of support to the next level. So I have this question is typically you will get from your board or investors or you know, like advisors more of advice on focusing on developing a strong sales team at the beginning or a strong marketing agent, like what you're doing right now, a little bit of both. Like kind of where, where do they lean?

I think you shouldn't listen to them. Can you find Master Spears?

Oh, that, that was a nice, that was a nice answer.

Yeah. No, seriously, I mean some of the worst mistakes we've made is by over indexing on investor advice. The reality is they don't know your business and they're smart people and you should take what they say has a valid, valuable data input. But just because they're investors does not shouldn't give them more right to your headspace than on any other and maybe even less because like again, they don't know your business.

Yeah, yeah.

So I, I mean, for example, we had, or we had investors that were like, you gotta build a sales team, you gotta build a sales team. Early on we built a sales team and it was a abject failure, huge waste of money. Kind of like we had like a if you build it, the leads will come mentality and just really, really, really, really unfortunate waste of cycles. So that's my honest advice, which is like, you know, hear your investors but don't listen to them. They're, they're just a data point. And to answer kind of your other question is like, is there a bias? I think it really the thing, the thing is like investors typically will have the bias of the type of businesses they've invested in or the business that they built because a lot of investors are like former founders that turned investors. And so that's going to be their bias. And that's great. If you end up fitting, if you end up being very similar to the types of businesses they've invested in or if, or if, or the types of business they built. But it can be a problem if you're not. And so you just need to, like I said, you need to understand your business. So like with grain, like we are a PLG business. That's what we are. We do have sales as a component to of our revenue because we get people who come in and would like that help and so we offer that. But it is not in any way the engine of our growth. It's a, it's a contributing factor to our growth, but it's not, it's not our core engine.

Gotcha. Now following up on that one, I, I believe that part of the reason and this I believe I'm not being on those meetings with investors in general, but I believe that part of the reason they, my intuition was that they will focus on sales.

Right.

Rather than marketing organic efforts. But I believe that part of the reason is because from my perspective, sales you can use to really direct where you're going to target the type of companies that you want to target either industry or company size and kind of like drive the product growth depending on the strategic goals of the company. And so therefore saying well we will focus on enterprise or mid market or maybe do very small business and all that. And on the marketing side, you can have some say on that when you use pay media, right. To some extent at least focusing your dollars on that. But when you go for more organic SEO, word of mouth mouth efforts, I, I have the feeling that it really depends on the features of the product itself because that's what will cater to the kind of crowd that will read the content or you know, get the product exposed. So, so what have been your, your you know, your journey on that one? Does the type of content that you write and kind of like the features of the product match the type of companies you're gonna, you're trying to, you know, be in front of or do you have any company type of company in particular that you're going to be in front of and content becomes a challenge. I don't know if I'm make sense of the question.

Yeah, yeah, there's so there's a couple things there that I'll speak to. So the first one about like the bias of investors. Yeah, I don't necessarily want to generalize there but if, if, if I were to generalize like one other thing that I think is really nice about sales is not only can you target but it's also very clear crank for growth like, you know, I. If you have like a sales process, and especially if it's, you know, if it's outbound, then it's like I, I hire five more reps, turns into this much more revenue. And so it's very linear, easy thing to scale if you're trying to scale. And that's what a lot of investors obviously want to. Want to encourage. Whereas marketing, maybe with paid, you can kind of, you can kind of like direct. There's like more of a direct link between inputs and outputs with content and other types of. It's not at all like that, right? Like, it's like, it's like slow build of compounding over time and then it starts to work. But it's like, it's. The inputs and outputs, I think are a lot, a lot less linear. So I think that's another thing. And then to the second part of your question, I would, I would say that. I would say so. I think, I think that, I think that we've had a problem. This has been a problem with us at Grain, where some of our highest performing SEO articles bring in the wrong types of customers. And I shouldn't say the wrong types, but customers that like, are not the ones that we say we target, have slightly different needs, are not maybe as valuable as customers. And what's interesting is like, that's actually got us in trouble at points in time in our journey because everyone talks about, you know, listening to your customers. And it takes a lot of discipline and rigor to understand this feedback we're hearing is actually not from this customer base we're trying to serve. And so we need to ignore it. And so it's got us trouble by like, pushing things onto a roadmap that shouldn't have been on a roadmap. Help time and effort and attention on things that really didn't move the needle for who mattered. So I think it's the way we think about it, because we're a PLGO company is like, it's fine if those people want to sign up and pay for grain, that's great, but we just need to be really rigorous and disciplined of like, recognizing who is our true segment and only kind of letting that segment have input on where we're headed and not let extraneous data, you know, get us confused about what we're trying to do.

Yeah, I, I agree. I, I guess it's. That's. If not, if not a. The price, a little bit of that tax on when you do organic or, you know, content, you're gonna Organic, a broader population. Right. And you will have this people outside of your TAM on all levels, right. From when you show up to who visit the website to, to who, you know, joins a demo or a trial to obviously who purchased the product itself. So that's, that's great, Jeff, Great insight there moving into that direction. The other thing that we've discovered or we see constantly is that when we work with clients are in more mature industries, products that have very well defined categories, obviously the rules of the game are kind of set up from a marketing perspective.

Right.

The category is known, you know, where do you fit on? It is known. You even, you know, you already know if you are the top tier premium brand or the more lower tier and all that. But I think that for SaaS, but especially for products like yours, right where you are on the edge of solutions that are evolving over time based on AI and things that are going on with video. One key challenge when you're creating content is in what category do we put ourselves right? Do we go for a well known and try to present ourselves as different in the marketplace and the content that we create, or do we create something of our own a la HubSpot with Inbound and kind of like define the category for the first time? What have been your journey there, have you? How has that change evolved over the years as you mature your platform?

Yeah, it's interesting. I would say, I would say we're not. Yeah, I'd say this is something we need to get better at. We've generally not. I guess I'd say I'm skeptical of category creation, especially at our size. I think you can spend a lot of time trying to figure out category creation. So we have never really like put in earnest effort to try to do it. Instead, we've kind of like tried to attach to the category we thought we were closest to at the various times. So like right now, I think you mentioned in the intro, you call this something like revenue intelligence. We don't really attach that category at the moment. We try to attach to AI, note taking and conversation intelligence. So these categories are flexible and they've evolved and I see, I see them evolve in real time. So we've always kind of just tried to attach to one or two categories that seem closest to what we're trying to do, even if they're imperfect. And then at some point it might make sense for us to try and, you know, try and do our own category. But I just feel like at our size, it's sort of an exercise in utility could be wrong. Maybe that's undermined us, but that's kind of been my belief.

Yeah, no, no, I strongly agree. Is the benefit of creating a theory of your own is that obviously you by definition dominated, but then a ton of your marketing effort will be to educating people about it versus attaching an anchor that is easy to access and from there build up a differentiation or at least, you know, a reference to, okay, you're part of that group, I will put you in that bucket and I can move on. Yeah, right. So it's less expensive, of course it will be more crowded. Very nice. So I think this has been great, Jeff. Great answers. And you know, it's also very helpful for us. I think I will close with a question for you for our listeners. Some of you know, our marketing professionals, especially the ones that are interested on the space that might work for companies like Grain. Right. And with all the things that are going on, as you were mentioning this, you know, very savvy marketer that kind of like try to figure it out on their own. What do you think are the abilities, the skills, the things that marketers right now, especially the ones that are entering the marketplace, need to pay attention to, to get hired, to get visible at. Com and working for companies like yours and the rest of the industry? What, what are you looking for right now that probably is different because everything have changed?

Yeah, I, I think it, I think it really depends. Is the question targeted at people who are trying to get become marketers, not like experienced marketers. People are trying to get into the industry? Is that. Yes. So I think whether you're talking, whether you're coming outta college or whether you're a experienced professional trying to pivot your career to marketing. For me, what I'm looking for is someone who's really good at conceptual problem solving. They're good at understanding users, understanding business and under and understanding the circumstance and being able to have clear hypotheses that analyze and take those different elements to account. I'm also looking for someone who likes experimentation. I think experimentation right now is very, very important. And who, who I'm not expecting to be expert experimentation, especially coming out of college, but someone who's at least oriented that way. Like asking people, like, what experiments have you ran? Like people have you ran experiments in your own life? Like for example, last night I put on a nightshade so on my eyes because I'm experimenting with like trying to improve my sleep with the whoop and everything. And so like I've done a lot of experiment like, are you doing experiments in your life? Just some kind of, some kind of like orientation towards experimentation would be the second thing. And then the third thing is just like really high quality craftsmanship in your writing, in your design, in your video product, whatever, whatever it is you've produced. Like even if I go look at your social media, like you've, you've done high quality work and I think that's really important because wherever you point your attention towards quality is so important, especially in the age of AI, it's like, I just think, I mean it's already happening. So this isn't unique, a unique insight, but we're just the, the zone is just being flooded with so much lowest common nature, lowest common denominator stuff that I think high quality is, has always been important, but will become more and more important over time.

Yeah, yeah, well, I, I promise that was, it was going to be the last question, but I'm so sorry, I'm going to ask another one because you mentioned this about the low quality. I'm of the belief that the other big thing is in the short term, I'm sure in the long term it will be beneficial for every single client facing department. But in the short term, I think marketing and sales are not going to be a net benefit for, you know, for buyers. Because pretty much what's happening is what you're saying. Right. Instead of using AI in a useful way to maybe outline the content ozone research and support your human directed research effort and trying to solve for clients, we are just pumping up average content that is the average of everyone else.

Yep.

Sales is even worse because now if we were doing this, you know, 20 emails per day, now we're doing 200 personalized. Yeah, Clay, because, because we are trying really to add more supply to a limited demand. Right. There's just so many people searching for answers and there's so many people with problems right now. However, the one that I believe true will truly benefit right away and is benefited right away is customer support right there. You actually have a way of using AI to actually solve problems using knowledge bases and just only if AI cannot solve it. You involve a human. Right. Which is the scary resource here.

Yeah.

And demand obviously is ever growing. Well, I don't know your take on that one is. Do you feel that that's kind of like where some of the impact, positive impact is showing up right now?

Yeah, I think what you, I think another way of saying what you're saying is like the best applications of AI right now is where the, where the Incentives of the company are aligned with the incentives of the customer. And I think that's absolutely the case with, with support. Because if you think about what do customers want with support? They want simple, quick answers. Right? Simple, quick answers. And the funny thing is, like, there's this, this is a digression, but like, there's a lot of talk. This was like, maybe a little bit old, but like five to 10 years ago, there's a ton of talk about customer empathy. Like, oh, good, customer success and customers were, you know, customer empathy. And then, and then they did this research. It's like people don't want empathy at all. They do not want the customer success and say, oh man, that stinks that this didn't work. What they want is just a really fast, quick answer that solves their problem. They don't even really want to connect with you as a human. Like, maybe that's not true for sales, but that's a hundred percent true for customer support when they're facing a problem. And so AI, the AI is perfect for that. They don't, no, no, no BSing, no, like, how was your day? Just like, give me the answer and get out of there. And that's what the company wants too, because the company doesn't want to have to pay people to, you know, to sit around and type in messages and get on the phones and blah, blah, blah. So I think there's a really great alignment of incentives there. Whereas, like, with outbound sales, it's like, did I ask for, you know, 50 emails? Like, I literally probably got 50 emails this morning from outbound people selling me like, no, that's not my incentive, but it's the company's incentive to send as many as possible because they're casting these really wide nets and just a race towards the bottom, I think. But I, I, I guess maybe we'll see, we'll see how that goes.

Yeah, I, I, I love that that you're saying about the people loving or, you know, the success and all that. It's true. I, when someone mentioned, yeah, well, you're gonna build a brand that some people love because, you know, the connection and all that. I'm not saying that that doesn't happen. It's just that we have a bias for the brands that we like or we love. Right. So you say, well, but look at this brand that I, you know, I follow what's going on and I'm really appreciative of what they're doing, the space and all that. Yeah, but how many brands do you purchase on a given time frame for that, for that purchase that you have that brand and do you care the same for the others?

Yeah.

Right. In the same way. And the answer is no. For most of the things that you buy, you'd even recognize the brand. That is so as you saying, for most things we really are trying to get quick, fast, convenient, low friction. We are not in love with every single brand that we purchase. It's not that it doesn't happen is that most buyers for every single brand are really not in love with it. Right.

Yeah. And if they do come to love with it, it's because that brand has consistently solved the problem. So then the brand becomes a substitute for quality or like, or like a totem for quality. I don't think people are like, oh, I'm going to buy this shoe because it's a great brand. Usually it's because it's because someone told me it's a great product and then they try it and then maybe over time, after wearing the shoe for a long time they come to affiliate with the brand. Yeah, yeah.

Love it. And finally I want to close that. I, I, I know a version of what you were saying is, are you, are you doing experiments in your life? I used to have a boss in manufacturing in another life and he, I remember used to hire for the maintenance facility manager. Right. Making sure that everything was clean on the manufacturing floor and all that. So his test was that he will, he will find a reason to walk with the person to his car or her car or his car and he will look at the car. He was like, if your car is a mess, you know, if you don't have your engine, all that.

Yeah.

I will not trust you with the, with the, with the manufacturing floor.

You see the fact that, yeah, that's awesome. I love that. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to get that job right now. I've got three kids, my car is an absolute disaster.

Yeah, that's, that's what I, that's what I usually will say, you know, to him. He's like, oh man. Well, most of us will be in trouble. So yeah. Fantastic. Jeff Cameron. Thank you. I don't know if you have anything else that you want to say, but this has been a blast. I really enjoyed our time here and for our listeners, if you know, want to know more about Jeff Cameron, what they are doing at Grain, just follow them, follow them on Social.

I'm sure you are LinkedIn and then grain.com super easy to find us on grain.com.

Fantastic. Well, guys, thank you so much. And to our listeners, until the next one.