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The answer is not for all of us to run away somewhere, to be— to leave our royalty in from our own nations and go and be cleaning people's homes somewhere else, all in the case of a few pounds, a few dollars, and our governments are sitting back and doing nothing.

What's your worst rejection story?

My worst is at airports. I work on 50 different countries of the world, hundreds of cities. I go through airports And I travel with a Ghanaian passport, so they see my passport, they see where I'm coming from. Already I'm a drug dealer. No way!

Does it happen to Ghanaians too?

Last time I was going to Korea, check-in person is asking me for this and that simply because I'm African. I have an African passport and I have an African accent. You've already judged me. Yes. I'm either a drug dealer or I'm an illegal immigrant. This kind of behavior strips dignity. When you strip dignity of a person, you take hope out of them, you take esteem and value from them. That hurts me deeply to my core. That hurts me for my people, and it causes anger to rise out of me against my people. Why do we give people a chance to treat us like that? Because this thing hasn't just come because of colonialism. It's also come because our government, they'd rather let us go and live in another nation and toil as slaves there because of the remittance that we bring to our economies from But ask your people, how can somebody get a PhD and go and serve as a cleaner somewhere? That should be a shame to any government.

You are a person of faith. What do you have to say about the role of religion in colonizing African minds, and what should we do going forward?

Most religions have principles that govern and guide.

Yes.

Most religions offer principles that should shape human life and human behavior.

Yes.

Their interpretation and the expression of that is is a whole different— so people can take a good— they can take a good principle to the expression of it is how they— not even their interpretation, the manipulation of that sheer greed and sheer wickedness. Because there's one thing to sell a person, there's another thing to dehumanize a person in the way that they did in the slave trade.

Yeah.

And excuse it. However, I'm also grateful Even in my pain, that there is a redemptive factor, and that redemptive factor is that I would never have become a Christian if they hadn't come to our shores. Now, why do Africans always say this and forget that their own people were complicit? Who sold them in the first place?

Hey guys, if you're watching this now, that means you have ears for intelligent conversations and this is exactly where you want to be. We have conversations that will get you at the edge of your seat, and this particular one is one you don't want to miss. I, I have a very honest request from you as we start this conversation. I'd like for you to like this broadcast. That helps us to get this to as many people as possible. You know, we can work together getting intelligent conversations to people all over the world. And I'd like you to drop your comment. Let us know how you feel. Let's know how this has impacted you. And one thing you want to do also is to subscribe to this YouTube channel, as this will notify you whenever we're bringing up videos, um, podcasts, or any other kind of video that can be a blessing to your heart. I look forward to having you again and again on this show. Thank you so much. So you said something that really caught my attention today, and, um, you have been a direct mentee of Dr. Miles Morrow before he passed. For how many years?

Oh, since 1993.

That's a long time.

That's a long time.

He passed in about 2014?

Yes.

2014. That's close to 21 years.

Yes.

Dr. Miles Monroe is one of the most remarkable teachers we've seen, a transformational leader. Um, what are some of the most powerful lessons you learned working with him, working with Dr.

Miles Monroe. Let me say this, for me it's not what I hear first, it's what I see modeled for me. I am— I have a great interest in leadership. Leaders model something, you know, Femi. When you're young, yes, you learn all your traits through imitation. Yes, through what is modeled for you. So you may not like the way a leader behaves.

Yes.

And you totally disagree with Yes. When you grow up and you're faced with the same kind of situation, automatically you don't switch to what you know is right, you switch to what you see modeled for you. And for me, he was a great model. He lived and embodied his message. He loved people, valued people. He'd reach to the small, to the big equally. And I saw this man live out his message, and that was more impacting to me than anything. If I forget anything, I remember what I saw. And if I can tell a story, actually. Please go ahead. I had opportunity several times to be in his house for lunch, dinner. I actually stayed at the house at a certain time too when they went off on holiday. But I remembered one particular day, it was during the economic crash. And we had gone to conference in the Bahamas. And he had told everybody, listen, It's November. Christmas is coming, but there's a financial crisis. Do not buy anything new. You have nothing to prove to anybody. Do not buy anything new. Don't spend money when you don't have it. Do not borrow. And this is part of this sermon, you know. And so, and he says, don't deny what is a reality. You live about it. Okay, well, some people were saying— I remember somebody saying, well, I do not believe in an economic crunch. The only crunch they know is oats or cereal or something flippant like that. He didn't say that. And but I remember that particular day, I went home with his wife, Auntie Ruth, to to set up the table for dinner. And whilst we were setting the table, it was a bit wonky. Something was obviously wrong with the legs. And I looked at her, I said, "Aunty," I called her Mama Ruth. And she said, "Ah, you know, he won't let me buy a new one because he has told everybody not to buy anything." You gotta remember context. I am in the kitchen. I am seeing this man put a little, a picture of a jet he's going to, he's giving away his jet. He's buying a new one. I see the jet on the fridge. I see this is a multimillionaire, you know? And he— and I could have closed my eyes and bought him that table. And he is saying— she is saying to me, he has said nobody buy anything, so we are not buying in this house. It wasn't that he couldn't afford it, he was principled. That, you see, human authority comes from living truth. It doesn't come from the eloquence of your words.

True.

It comes from embodying truth and living it out. That's why there's a certain je ne sais quoi about people when they speak. There are people who sound very clever in life.

Yes.

And yet their words don't settle. We admire it, and for a moment we revel in it, and then it's gone like a vapor. And then there are those who speak words, and whether you understand it or not, there's something deep that settles inside of you. It resonates with you. You think about it. You percolate it for a bit. True. Because they embody truth. Well, we are spiritual people. There's something about the human thing that is not just the body and the casing that we live in. That was Miles Monroe for you. He lived his message. He embodied his message. And a lot of times he said, "You will get it when I'm gone." Yeah. He kept saying to us, "You'll get it." He'll say something and we'll see, we'll look at him and then he'll say, "You'll get it when I'm gone." Many people are getting it when I'm gone. There's also something about when a man lives truth, it comes out of a reality of experience. It comes out of observing people. It comes out of the value he puts on people. So he digs deep. For truth and not just a word that titillates people. All of these for me were iconic moments with the man they call Miles Monroe. Wow.

These experiences you had with Dr. Miles Monroe, did they shape who you are today?

They have totally shaped me. Nobody believed in me as a woman like Miles Monroe did. And I remember I would be given like, will you serve on this board? And I didn't know my left from my right. I was trying to survive. I just stopped pastoring and gone into itinerant ministry. I was trying to rub two cents together, you know, kind of thing. And I'm being offered boards to sit on, and I— and he'd say, 'See, take them all. You learn from it. You take them all. You learn from it. It'll stretch you.' He made me believe in a sense of purpose. So, um, that which I think is my strength personally— I have a very strong sense of purpose. I know what is not my bit, and I know what's my bit. I know why I'm living, you know. I— it has to be meaningful. Uh, when you do that, it defines the parameters from which the future will emerge for you. And these were all taught me, modeled. Somebody disciplined me. You didn't, you know, he kept an eye on me. I had accountability. That's another big thing. I had a very much accountability with him. What are you doing? Who is doing it? So you had to be on the straight and narrow. I am a result of mentoring. Actually, let me say this also. Mentoring is a great facility because it allows us to prepare leaders for the future.

True.

He's gone, I'm here.

Yeah.

And in many ways, he's not gone because I'm here. Yeah. If he hadn't deposited, spent time with me, invested in me, I wouldn't be here. I owe a lot to him, and because of that, I feel like I can't drop the baton because too much has been invested in me. So it determines how I live my life too.

Yeah. You grew up in Africa?

Yes, born and bred in Ghana.

Africa is likely patriarchal.

Yes.

Do you think so?

Yes.

And for you as a woman, and you are a grandma.

Yes, I'm a grandma.

Would you describe yourself as an early riser? An early riser? Did you start early some of the things you're doing now?

Yes. So I have to tell you this, okay? I think, you know, most people think life happens once. It doesn't. It's a process. I like the word transformation. Transformation. We're all in a transformative state. Transformation is two words: trans and form. Trans means we're going on a journey into a certain formation.

Yeah.

So I had a very interesting background. I had a very strict father. At the age of 11, 12, I had to be reading the newspaper every single day, the foreign page. In Ghana, if you open Times or Graphic, it's always the foreign page. I had to read it every single day. I couldn't stand my dad. Please, nobody tell my dad I said this, but I thought he was the most hateful dad. He didn't like me. Why is he making my life misery? And then at the end of the week, I had to write an essay. About one foreign story. My dad would always make me say every single day, say after me, Celia, my book is my friend, my book is my friend, my book is my friend. He was shaping my paradigm. I was ungrateful because foolishness is still bound in the mind of a child. So I was shaped. So it's not that Africa lacks things, it's what we make of it, is how we see things. For my dad, education was everything. For my dad, reading— and it wasn't just passing exams. So I'd read. I would go to the bathroom and I'd have a book. I'd be eating, I still have a book. And it was very variegated reading, so it wasn't that I was stuck to one thing. So if you talked a little bit about economics, I might not know a little bit about it, but I know a little bit about it, you know. My dad would ask me questions, like I'd wake up in the morning, my dad say, okay, in my language, yes. So what's the program today? What's your program? What's your agenda? I had to write it down. I couldn't write anything down without putting a date to it. Little things shape you without your realizing it. True. There's nothing wrong with Africa. It's how we handle Africa.

Yes. Are you saying you didn't face difficulties rising as a woman?

I did.

In public spaces?

In public spaces. In my own home, my dad was a PR consultant. He'd write an essay and ask me to read it and discuss it with me. So I was brought up in a home that I didn't feel inferior as a woman.

Yes.

But when I went to the public space— Yes. I was made to feel little. Then I remembered, why am I here? The why is very important. Even now I live my life amongst men. Yes, but why am I here? I'm here because this and that. I'm here because there's something for me to do here, and I'm damned if I'm gonna let anybody feel— let me feel small.

Yeah.

So I made sure that I— nobody would have an excuse to say you're a woman, so you don't have a sense, you don't have a head, you are foolish. So I said to myself, I'm going to be intelligent. Yeah, I'm gonna read. I would learn, I would watch programs and learn how to articulate my words so that I'm not stupid. I felt like I owed it to every woman that nobody would say ever that I have an accent. Yeah, you're hearing me with an accent. Yeah, you know, that nobody would say I'm a woman, so I belong in the kitchen. Yes, I can cook. I can cook for 20 people, but that doesn't mean I checked out my brains. I think every woman has to have that sense of responsibility. And that's so— and one thing is I never tried to fight men. You are different. I'm different. Yeah, my superiority is what I bring to the table. Your superiority is— so I think what helped me was I never tried to be a man. But when I was young and I was like 13, 14, 15, I wanted to be a man. I thought life was unfair. And then I came to myself, I thought, I kind of like being a woman. Because they underrate me till I open my mouth.

Well, so from what you say, you believe there are women that fight men?

Yes, I think there are women. Yes, I think there are women who think unless I sound like a man and act like a man, I can't get far. I don't believe that. What— whatever.

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?

No, I don't think so. I kind of like being a woman. I still like doors being open for me.

You get the concept of feminism?

Yes, for what it is. For what it is. I think there's pluses and minuses to anything, I think. But I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist. But do I believe in women's rights? Absolutely.

What's your worst rejection story?

My worst rejection story? How many do you want me to talk about?

It doesn't even look like you have one.

I have plenty. You know, the beauty of life is this, Femi. Somebody once said this: it's not falling down. Yes, staying down is more of a failure. Yeah, I wear failures every single day. What? There are days I deal with self-doubt every single day.

Every day.

That's why I believe everybody has to have a why in life. Every single day, I— there is always self-doubt. Am I fit for this? Did I say the right thing? Did I make the right choice? I could have done better. So there's a good side to it. That means you raise yourself, your standards are high. But the other side is that you beat yourself up every day.

True.

Um, it's keeping both in tension. Yeah. But I have my worst case of rejection was I think I spoke somewhere, and because of— before I came and before I opened my mouth, people had already formulated. So they hear your name, it's African, in their mind it's another African.

Yeah.

So there's prejudice already. Yes, there they feel like— and I'm very— I can be very Afrocentric in my dressing. Yeah. And I'm quite intentional sometimes when I get into Caucasian circles that I dress like an African woman until they've read you. And so already that's the attitude that's projected towards you. Yeah. That hurts me. But actually, let me say this, let me say this, actually forget that. Because that's not the worst. My worst is at airports. I work on 50 different countries of the world, hundreds of cities. Wow. From Singapore right down to Johannesburg, if you like. I go through airports and they look at— and I travel with a Ghanaian passport till now. Till now. So they see my passports, they see where I'm coming from. Already I'm a drug dealer.

No way! Does it happen to Ghanaians too?

Already I'm a drug dealer because where did I get the money from? Oh, that in the last month alone I could tell you, I last 2 weeks I was in Morocco, week before I was in Malawi, week before I was in Accra, then I was in Lagos. Wow, you know, so already where did you get the money from? I am having travel agent Uh, somebody checking people. Last time I was going to Korea, check-in person is asking me for, uh, this and that. And I said, are you an immigration officer? Call your boss. Wow. Simply because I'm African. Wow. I have an African passport and I have an African accent, you've already judged me.

Yes.

I'm either a drug dealer or I'm an illegal immigrant. I face that every day. That kills me, because if I wasn't articulate to fight my corner, what about those who come? I've stood— I don't want to mention the nation's name— where I've seen them take Nigerian students. Oh yes, I saw it. This is not somebody telling me about it. Take the Nigerian students aside and talk to them anyhow. And we're standing— I'm going to a conference— we're standing in the queue in Europe, and then they come and they get You, you, all the black people out, all of us with African passports. The ironic thing was the guy who I was talking to, who's standing in front of me, he's white. He has a Malawian passport. They left him because they assumed he was not African.

Interesting.

That hurts me more than anything because I think this kind of behavior strips dignity. When you strip dignity of a person You take hope out of them. You take esteem and value from them. That hurts me deeply to my core. That hurts me for my people, and it causes anger to rise out of me against my people. Why do we give people a chance to treat us like that? Because this thing hasn't just come because of colonialism. It's also come because our governments have been— and I'm going to say it boldly— our governments have been sometimes irresponsible. They'd rather let us go and live in another nation and toil as slaves there because of the remittance that we bring to our economies. That boys— but what's the English word I'm looking for? Is at this point I plead I'm Ghanaian, okay? What's the English point I'm looking— word I'm looking for?

In, in what regard?

Well, it adds to our economy, okay? And it builds up our economy, remittances from abroad. But ask your people, how can somebody get a PhD and go and serve as a cleaner somewhere? That should be a shame to any government. And in many ways, I know some of your audiences might not like me for saying this, I'm hearing stuff about immigration that I think sometimes is good for us. Let's come and build. The answer is not for all of us to run away somewhere, to be— to leave our royal tea in from our own nations and go and be cleaning people's something home somewhere else, all in the case of a few pounds, a few dollars, and our governments are sitting back and doing something. Nothing. And that's why I get angry with our government. Yes.

You've seen the recent xenophobic attacks on Ghanaians?

Yes.

How does that make you feel?

That's, that's, that's harsh. That's wrong. That, that— I don't even know how to put it because, like I'm saying, when you take dignity, you strip a person of their dignity, you take away humanity from them. And still African governments are saying nothing. Still, um, This little statements done here and there. The thing is, what can we do to shut our doors, to keep our people in so that they feel human enough? Yeah, not to go into exile as slaves somewhere else.

Wow. There's this question I'd like to ask you, and I'd like to give you a story behind the question. And, um, because when I heard you, I I see you as someone who has fought through the storms, particularly to maintain your relevance. And in a sense, it has distinguished you. If you find yourself in countries, you're not there for survival.

Did I?

If you find yourself in countries, you are not there for survival.

No.

You're there because you have an assignment.

I may have gone there for survival, but something switched in my mentality.

In your mentality.

Nobody can live beyond what they believe about themselves and about their future and about their hopes. So inside of me, I was determined. You see, everything— they say that everything rises and falls on leadership. I want to be a leader. How can I influence others? How can I influence— actually, I am a Christian. I pray that God will open the door for me to influence somebody else, you know. So once you find a sense of purpose for somewhere, your context is irrelevant because you can live above it. Do you understand what I'm saying? Either the environment gets you or you live above it.

Yeah.

And I think at some point I switched my philosophy of life. Yeah. I was no longer a victim. Yeah. I, I was going to be an employer in a place where I started out as a cleaner. Really? Yes. Wow. That was a determination for me. And I teach my young people, I say, don't even— if you're pursuing money for money's sake, you're a failure. I say to them, you want to grow your business Why don't you say to yourself, how many people can I employ and take off unemployment list this year?

That's it.

Then you're arriving somewhere. It's all in the philosophy of life. It's all in the lenses through which you see yourself, you see other people, and you see life. And you see stewarding the opportunities that you have. That's very important for Africans to learn to steward things that we have. I've just come from Malawi, and, um, I was privy to, to just privileged to see some of the work that is happening in rural areas where rural women— I mean, proper village.

Yes.

Who live in mud huts.

Yes.

Have learned how to cultivate tomatoes and, and, and corn in a different way. I walk into a village with others and I'm seeing village women with a flip chart open. They have a cooperative. Things are written. Who told you that the person may not be able to speak English? They ain't stupid. They have been able to maximize their resources. Now their children are in university, they're in secondary school, they, they have TVs. You might look at them as village illiterate women, but just because a person lacks literacy in a certain language didn't mean they lack brain power.

True, true.

Yeah, do you get what I'm saying? They don't lack brain power. By this time, I don't even know what your question was again, but I'm good, you know. But, but Perhaps again, it's in when, when we've bought into the lie that we're helpless people, we've bought into the lie that we have nothing. But if you look at us, we're survivors.

We are.

We've always managed to survive. Yeah, against the odds. Yeah. And beyond surviving, if only we were taught to think critically, analytically, critical thinking. Creatively so that we don't eat our seed, but we maximize. There's an old proverb that says a lazy man does not take what he put, does not roast what he took in hunting.

Yes.

So for example, I could hunt down a pig Yeah, in my country we like trotters, pig feet. We roast pig feet. Yes, pig's feet. It makes nice soup, bro. I don't eat pig, pork, but I've been told.

But you ate the feet?

No, I don't eat pork at all, but for some people it's very nice. They use it to make soup, the tail, the skin. Yeah, so we can, we enjoy all of that. Yeah, well, how about other people take the innards. I hear surgical instruments can come out of that. Yeah, surgical implements. No, it's true.

Surgical.

Yes, certain things are from the pig. They, they are used, not the, the meaty side. It's a bit like when you take, you kill an antelope or something and you skin it and you dry it and you have a mat. Okay. Yeah, yeah, it's that kind of thing. So we don't maximize, we're not taught to maximize. And this is the problem when there is a paradigm of survival, because survival means I'm eating every day, I'm short-sighted, from hand to mouth, I have no long-range plans. Even now we do that. Your plan— our plans are 2-year, 3-year, 4-year, 5-year, whereas Caucasian is thinking 100 years, generationally.

Yes.

And when people think like that, we will always be slaves, we will always be disadvantaged. Wasted because we never maximize what was always within our view. We don't even see it.

Yes. Now back to the story I was going to show you, which is connected to what you just shared. While I was in secondary school, there was this girl that was in front of me in class. She was very smart, and I, at that point, I was already struggling just to make sure I caught up with her. And my maths teacher called me one day and said, she's a girl. He said, some boys will start disturbing her and she's going to drop. By the time we got to SS2, going to SS3, she was not even among the first 5 in class. She dropped. And That almost showed that there is societal expectation that at some point, maybe due to family and many other emotional commitments, women drop from the ladder. You are a grandma and you're still burning on all cylinders. How have you kept that running and what can young girls learn from you?

That young lady would have First of all, the circumstances. Sometimes there's home circumstances. When there's no money, we put, you know, then there's always an excuse, and it's always the girl child who is at the end of that. She has to suffer for that, never the boy child. You don't hear anybody say, you know, we don't have any money, so don't go to school. It's always the girl child. She's expendable.

This can be argued. Yeah, it can be argued. Okay, in many senses I was going through very serious Family Trauma, that's season 2. So we, I think in a way, just about that story.

Yeah. Okay, so the second thing is, um, when we— I keep going back to the mind because the mind is a womb of one's life. Yeah. Belief systems are important very early in life. When somebody keeps saying to you, you're only a woman, 'You're really a girl.' Yeah, you buy into that irrespective of what you see.

True.

It's easy to believe. And I think for— because of life's experience, we tend to believe other people's opinion of us rather than our own opinion of ourselves. So somewhere along the line, the girl must have stopped trying. She may have stopped trying because she believed whatever it is. And then also When— for me, hope is a big thing. That's why vision is a big thing. Vision beckons to you. Vision challenges you to live beyond the present. Somewhere along the line, she probably didn't have a great expectation of her own future, possibly. So she probably gave into it, possibly, you know, gave into it. Because if your teacher is only— is saying to someone— and I'm sure the boys may have also said to her, you're only a girl.

Possibly. Are you saying this is what happens to many women?

Many women, yes. Are you saying also to me that there are not many preconceived ideas about how womanhood should be? You find a man and a woman and the woman is doing well, she's a top banker, she's this, people say, hey, your wife, talk to her. As a woman, if you let them do that, they will even, they'll find you buying some nice food somewhere, some Buka, and they'll be saying, you see, we told him, his wife doesn't cook at all. Because everybody think has preconceived ideas that are very limiting about what a woman should be. And all of that for a lifetime, you keep hearing this, it's very hard to resist, very hard to fight against, because it's the posture of society irrespective of what color they are. That one, this one is not just for Africa. Everywhere you go, whether they're Asian, whether they're Caucasian or African, the same prejudices exist.

How did you beat it?

I'm not sure whether I've beaten it fully, but I sure am fighting back. Because I listen to people like you. Yes, I listen to people like you, you know, and, and I, I, it changes my mind. You've given me opportunity, that's building my confidence up. You see, I told you about the why. The why in life is very, very important. In life, I have a reason for my existence. Yes, I'm in my mid-60s. Yeah, when I turned 60, I started a countdown of how much time I have left before I die, and I sure don't intend to die without a legacy. And if the only legacy I leave is confidence in someone, is in holding somebody's hand and helping them find a sense of purpose in life, in helping somebody break through the limitations in their life.

Yeah.

Then I would have done my bit. And I hold myself to that. I remind myself every single day. I use words for me, like, in my life, like, not on my watch. As long as I have life and I have breath, yes, I'll make this happen. So those are— they may seem little, but they help guide my conscience. They inform my choices and my decisions every day. So I'm only a product of what I believe, what I want, my sense of responsibility in life, and life's expectation of me. Yeah, all combined to help me fight back prejudice.

Do you feel society is harsh on women? Society is harsh on women.

Life is changing. Very fast. I think women have proven themselves. In Ghana, where I come from, most of our top industry leaders are women. Ah, Vodafone, Nestlé— I don't know whether it's changed now— Barclays Bank, ABSA, all women.

Interesting.

Very interesting. Very strong women, very brilliant, smart women. So we are seeing the models, the women who have fought it, and all it takes is You want to doubt us? Let's look at the stats. You want to doubt us? Let's see. Africa right now has more women in Parliament involved in politics than the Western world. True. That's all proof. And as other women see and hear these examples, they rise to the fore and say, if they can, me too, I can. Yeah. So I think time has given us opportunity, we've taken it, and it's changing preconceived conceptions about women.

Do you feel society don't forgive women? For instance, a man can make certain mistakes and pick himself up faster, and, um, you know, we get to hear more single mothers than single fathers and can still pursue and become everything. That doesn't seem to happen to women. Do you think it's self-sabotage or the system on ground that women can't— that they don't get to pick themselves up compared to their male counterparts?

I think women pick themselves up. I am a single woman. I didn't tell you that. I'm a single mother.

Why, interesting.

And yes, I think women all over the world They are baby fathers. Lots of wavy fathers in this world, and women strive, they thrive. You can see a woman— I don't even know how women handle it with multitasking. And this is not just something that we just say. How do women— they dream. I'll give you this example, okay? Yeah, there will be no food in the house. Yes, but I can guarantee you, by the end of the day, the child would have eaten because somehow women find a way. I think women pick themselves up quicker than men do. We may be emotional, we may have a lot more emotional baggage, but when it comes to survival, I think women have a survival instinct.

You feel this based on fact? Um, is this proven?

I don't have empirical evidence. Yes, but I see single women everywhere. I see women— I've just come from village, you know. Okay, you go around the world, and then the little few bits that I've seen around the world, you will always see men idle in a corner, unemployed, playing dummy. What do they call the— do you call it dummy here?

I get that.

What do they call the thing? Whatever it's a draft. You will never ever see a woman idle during the day playing draft. She's surviving, she's creating something, she's doing something because the home relies on it. Even when they are married is the same thing. The man will say, I'm going to look for money, I'll come. He will go, he'll come at night, everybody would have eaten. They would have even left bits for him with insults, but they'll still leave him some food to eat. Women are survivors. I think we pick ourselves up quicker than men. Unfortunately, we bring our emotional baggage with us. Yeah.

Wow, this is profound. Considering the fact that you straddle more than 50 nations, what you do Um, let's talk about office politics. Is it something that you feel is inevitable?

Office politics?

Yes.

As long as there's human beings, there will always be contention, strife, and some degree of politics because it's the human nature. Yes.

Have you heard the adage that the nice girl don't get the corner desk?

No, I haven't. Nobody told me that.

Something like that. Yeah.

Why do they say that?

I think they are saying that the woman will have to really fight to get her place. Yes, in a sense.

Yes, yes, yes.

How have you navigated all those things? Have you— have they tried to bring you down before? How do you go about that?

It's life. It's— I don't think there's any single woman who hasn't have to go through.

You are not trying to make this conversation about anything peculiar you've got to do as a woman. You're just saying it's life.

It is life. So As a woman, my father taught me a lot of principles when I was growing up. I think my father wished I was a boy secretly.

Interesting.

So I was driving by the time I was 16. I had to wash the car, change— by the time I was 16, I could change car tire. Wow. I could check brake fluid, I could check, uh, oil, put— I could do all of that because I was the firstborn, okay? And I happened to be a girl.

Interesting.

Okay, and so my father would share a lot with me, and one of the things he always told me, Cecilia, when you go to work anywhere, work so hard that when you're not there, they miss you. So that became part of my philosophy of life.

Yeah.

And I realized that whatever— the more they come against you, the more you kick back so that you're— they need you. How much more if people need you, they forget that you are inferior in their minds.

Yes.

So Of course I had to work harder, be there first, leave later than everybody just to make headway. Because I— by the time I started to work in offices proper, I was in the Western world. So again, okay, there was— I'm coming against not just prejudice against my gender, but prejudice against my race and my ethnicity. Yeah, I'm not good enough for them, so I had to prove myself. I still have to prove myself, okay? I still have to prove myself. So you'll have to be agile mentally. You have to be on the ball. You have to do— give— I call it my ball. What am I bringing to the table that others can't bring? Because it creates need, it creates value. So I'm always looking at— so I, I, I, I work with 4 things. I say, what do I have? Who needs what I have? Where are they? How can I get it to them? So I'm working around this. Even if it's in the office, what do I have that others need? How do I get it to them in a way that puts value on me and what I'm bringing? And I think that's how we fight office politics. Yes. Complaining isn't going to do anything. And I've had to fight that. I've also realized that whether they promote me or not I will make my noise. I will still be— I do not want anybody to take away from me what I have and what I know I can do just because they kept me in the corner.

So you don't chicken out?

I've chickened out enough times to realize that I must fight the chickening out. So I always say this, I say my greatest enemy is myself. I've chickened out too many times to realize that that wasn't the best choice I made. So now I'm determined. But you see, the thing about women is this, and the thing that has helped me is this: I don't do solo.

How do you mean?

So I get other smart women around me, so we're hearing each other. It's a bit like two knives, iron sharpening iron.

How about getting like smart men too? Men want to work too.

Yes, but men are not— if they are not in my corner, I'm gonna get somebody who's in my corner. Who's going to champion my cause? Who, when I bellyache and I tell them all about it, they say, Femi Lazarus, don't mind them. When they do this, do that. So I'm pumping myself up before I go in from people who feel what I'm feeling, probably have gone through what I'm going through, have broken through and are championing me up. It's a bit like you've been in the boxing ring and you go back, they've hit you, and you go back and your trainer says, you can do it, boy, what are you doing? Don't mess up. Give him a left, give him a hook. So you women like to do that. We gung-ho, we, we go shopping together and we, we, we buy shoes, we buy hats, but we beef each other up so we can go back to the ring and fight back.

This contradicts the statistics. Some—

we don't believe that women support women compared to the way men support women when we are not rivaling each other. If we're contesting for the same space, I ain't supporting you. But if we're not— yes, if you touch one woman, then you got the rest of us to contend with because we're not in the same space fighting for the same thing. Mostly women are catty when we're fighting over men. Yeah, over status. Yes, over positioning. Yes. Otherwise, come and try us and see. You see a herd of women who will run you out of that place. But immediately, that's why men also know, and they will always position us in a place where we are fighting one another. And when we fight one another, then we weaken one another. Otherwise, you take that out, we will tear you apart.

So let me say this as one that run quite a number of organizations. I, I, I, I, I maybe sometimes, I don't know, I, I think I've got to— I've received more complaints of women staff having issues themselves Because I told you, we are in the same space.

So we are contesting for favor, we're contesting for recognition. When you put us in the same space, we are not designed to help each other. When we are out there, we are not competing. You see, when you bring people down so much, the man doesn't have to prove himself the way I have to prove myself. I'm proving myself, she's proving herself, he's proving himself, all contending for favor with the same person. I will show you my cutiness.

You feel men don't have to prove themselves?

I beg, it's not the same way. Really? It's not the same way. We don't come equal. We do not come equal. And by nature, women are more— you see, we don't gossip, we discuss things. We're not catty. Women are at their best and their worst with women. It depends on the context we find ourselves in. The moment is competing for something, yes, the worst of us comes out. True. When it is not, and I'm secure, yeah, by nature I'm a natural, yeah, so the best of the natural will come out. The moment you put me in a place where— because a woman is intuitively protective. Yeah, so really the workplace and the workplace politics is an uncomfortable place that we haven't still marshaled— and what is the word I'm looking for—

strength.

Haven't had the mastery of. Yeah, so we're still in a place where I'm proving myself, and when another woman comes, she's also proving herself. We do not collaborate because we We're vying for the same thing. The moment you take me out and you put me in my natural context, the nurturer, the protector, the provider, the bigger up of others flows naturally. It's men's fault. Let it be known officially. Oh, that is his best fault that we are catty at work.

Interesting. And, and, um, I just want to say that I, I've learned experientially that in most of the places where I need things to move faster, I prefer to work with women. Yes, personally, I think— I don't know how they're able to do it, but I just feel once a woman puts the mind somewhere, there's a way they do it with the sense of, like, their life depends on it. A man can miss your call 20 times and— oh, let's leave it.

It's our DNA. I think it's a woman's DNA. It says how we're designed. Women are doers. And the reason we're doers is this: women don't like basics. You're married. I've seen your wife. She's beautiful. Yeah. You see, when you're standing with your wife, yes, does she touch your tie? She will try and adjust something. Um, she would adjust something on your—

everything, everything, everything.

She does that instinctively. Well, how many times have you stood with a woman, with your wife, and touched their hair and say, honey, or touch two clips? No, it's a woman's thing to make things take it from good to best to better. It's instinctive for her.

I need to write this down.

Your wife passes the kitchen, the living room, she sees a cushion, nothing wrong with that cushion, she will plump it, put it She's forever bettering herself. It's an innate thing that we want to always make things better. So you give us a task, we would have failed if we didn't make it better than the way you gave it to us. So we put our best to it. It's innate. It's a comp— it's an inward thing. Men don't understand it. It's inside of us. We do it without thinking because every time you give us a seed, we have to make it into a forest, into something that is multiplied, something that is better. That's why You see women— have you ever seen women? Nobody goes— in my country we call it sakura, like bare face like that. Hey, if you can enhance it, you do a little bit of lipstick here, a little bit of eye here, a little bit of here. Yeah, so we can't recognize ourselves anymore. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? It's part of a woman's nature to enhance things. So once you give a woman a task, her innate nature comes out to make it better. We also like to be applauded. We like to be appreciated. We like to be admired. Nothing makes us work better than, "Honey, this one dear." Yeah, it brings the best out of us. We don't know about these men, but as for us, that's how we are, you know. So, um, yeah, if you want the job done, give it to a woman, I say. And don't forget, the man also has something to add. I am sounding— I'm not sounding like I believe— I, I believe very much in Collaboration.

Collaboration. Yes.

Yeah, I believe very much in collaboration, and I think women collaborate better than men. All this gossip we get together doing, what do you think we're doing? It's collaboration. It's just men's perspective of it. But I'm saying that women network easier. Women, you know why? You see collectives of women more than you see of men. You men, when you see each other you have to sniff each other. You're more competitive than we are at a certain level. You have to sniff each other, know each other. A woman can meet each other in the shop. Hi, I like your blouse. Oh really? I think you're flipping the script. I think you— I don't know what you've been reading. I think you'll be flipping the script.

I, I really think you'll be flipping this.

Because we men, we come gist about everything, talk about football, talk about— you don't talk about the realities life. You talk about the surface things. You can get together with football. We will— a woman will meet another woman in the shop, admire her shit. She will— within 10 minutes, I'd have told her everything about my husband and my family. Within 15 minutes, we have exchanged numbers.

Women don't do that.

Within 3 days, I would say that's my best friend when I don't know her really. That's how easy it is. Men, you don't— because you're always— you see how dogs meet each other? They have to sniff each other. Is this kosher first? Women don't waste that kind of time. And sometimes it's to our advantage and to our disadvantage, but I'm saying that it's also part of our natural, um, nature to connect. Well, to connect easier. Of course, it comes with a lot of pain because a lot of times there's no caution put to it, there's no logic put to it. Yeah, there's no rationale. But I can meet somebody and say it's my friend. What do you know? That's an associate. You don't know anything about that person. How can they be your friend? It doesn't take that to be a friend. But so we have many friends, okay? So that's a strength and a weakness. Yeah, it works for us when it works well. It damages us when it doesn't. And because we're emotional, it's very easy for us to have an emotional connection, whereas men have logical connections.

Yeah, it's true. I'm not just going to connect to a man in the way women No, women can meet each other in 3 days. And I think that's the same—

with the same speed, we can be enemies.

Yeah, and that's true. When you look at the lion, the pride of lions, um, one dominant male per territory, another one sent away. You've, you've been around and you are also passionate about Africa. What do you think the next 5 years, 5, 10 years looks like? What are the things we should be doing to position ourselves as a continent to be in a strategic point?

Africa has come to the point where all transformation believes starts and commences with the focused, consistent discontent of the status quo. I think Africa has gotten to the point where we are finally asking ourselves some things. How long can I live like this? The moment a person becomes discontent with something is the moment they had the breakthrough, even though they haven't done anything to reset. Yeah, because when you're lulled into a place of helplessness and despair— yeah, you are at your lowest. The day you say, 'I am not fit for this,' that day is the day of recovery. I think Africa has arrived at the place where we have said no more. So I am seeing Africa— I think we're already on a reset. I come from Ghana. Many years ago, when I get to the airport and I'm buying things. I buy chocolate from Switzerland, all manner of brands. Yeah, our chocolate was not nice. Today I can go to Ghana, I buy gifts of chocolates. We have gourmet chocolate, popcorn chocolate. I even saw garri chocolates, garri and peanuts.

But I think Ghana has started processing most of their stuff themselves now.

Yes, so that's what I'm saying. So where there was to be a switch, there's been a transformation. We have morphed from dependence, we have morphed from helplessness to suddenly we got to a place where our backs were against the wall and we began to eye open, see what is in my house, what do I have. We are now stewarding resources better. With our governments, Ghana has not had a coup for almost 40 years because our back was against the wall and we said no more, this thing is disrupting us. It is disrupting our economy. We've had enough. We've had people die. When do people get to a point when they say no more? I think when people get to a point and they say no more, they start looking inward. Africa is on a rebuild. I am very, very, very confident of that. Our young people are hope. They are thinking differently. They are audacious in their thinking. I meet young people, they have not even started life, and then they are telling me big dreams that even their grandfather could never have dreamt it. We have hope. Let them dream and fail, but it's better to dream that way and fail than not to dream at all. And so once a person starts dreaming, they start visualizing what the future is. Yeah, reset is very possible, and reset has commenced. So on that note, I think Africa is already on the reset. Watch us in 5 years. We're catching our manufacturing is different. We're, we are now enjoying our own products where we used to look to the West. Today, and these are even flippant things, like I never used to see Africans go on holiday. Today I go to Ghana, people are going to Mauritius, they are going to— what's that— Zanzibar.

Yeah, yeah.

I didn't see them go on honeymoon somewhere. I even see people coming from Nigeria to Ghana on honeymoon, on holiday, on this. We didn't used to have those ideas because we were still on survival. Nobody can tell me we're not on a reset now. We are— we, we have hotels that are big. Everything used to be run by either Asians or Lebanese or Chinese, and we still are. Now we are contending for that space. Wow. I think Africa is on a reset. I am excited to be African, proud to be African, hopeful that Africa will never— was it coming to a point where we won't beg again? There's still a lot of work to be done, and a lot of work comes not by wringing our hands in despair, but looking for those we can invest in. That's the next generation and the generation after that who are already on the forefront because they are not thinking like we thought. You see, our children have been exposed. They have a different kind of appetite from us. Now I see people going to KFC and they think about chicken. When I was growing up, you chicken at Christmas Yes, you eat jollof at Christmas. Today jollof is— everybody can have it. Our children have different appetites, and because they have different appetites, we can't go back. They are wanting more. They've tasted what their life can be like, and that is even enough because they will break out of every limitation. No more are we collecting degrees and not doing anything with it. Yeah, they are innovative, they are creative, and we have to feed into that. And if they fail, we say, honey, get up, you can try again and do it. Wow.

In respect to this breaking out of this norm, can you list a few country— countries in Africa you expect that these ones were counting on you? From, from your ex—

from my experience, definitely Ghana, definitely Nigeria, Kenya. For my friends, I've never been to Kenya, but I'm hearing a lot of people doing stuff Uganda. Um, um, I'm not too sure about francophone countries. I think it may be a bit slow there, but I— it's not on any kind of expert thing. I think West Africa, there's a sweep of something that is flowing.

Definitely Senegal.

There's a sweep of something that is flowing in West Africa, definitely. I think South Africa is still— it's still in that space, but they're coming. They have too many things they fighting also, but there's still a, a, a move to put young people at the forefront of what we do. And so definitely I'm seeing— I've just come from Malawi, I'm seeing that from Malawi, okay, and the countries around Tanzania, Zambia. Yes, I'm seeing young people come. How do we know? We're seeing younger people on boards. Yeah, so it's not just talk. We're seeing younger CEOs that we've never seen before. That means we're entrusting our future into people who have a different kind of mindset, different kind of strategy, different kind of tactics. They can speak better, engage better. They understand the world that we are going into. And it's not just, um, a lot of times when we say that, um, we mean AI and we mean this whole digital revolution, but I don't think so. I think to understand commerce today, you need to understand the culture of the other person. It's like doing business with Chinese or Japanese. Yeah, our younger people understand because they blend better, they, they, they mix better. They are not in silos anymore, so they understand the culture better, they understand the language, they have bravado. Nobody told them they couldn't do it. Do it. Yeah, they are mad. Yeah, they're audacious. They're crazy. Nobody told them. They unleash. They learn from mistake. They will fall 20 times. That for me tells you there's hope. Yeah, there's movement. Yeah. And yeah, we're seeing them in every aspect of society, younger people coming to the fore.

Yeah, there's a management rule that any demography you're trying to reach should at least be represented in some way in your board.

Of course.

And we've seen that happen most places or most sectors for most countries in Africa, except political sector. Yes. And for instance, look at what is happening, the xenophobic attack in South Africa. I saw how the South African High Commissioner was summoned and I was listening to your minister, one of your ministers, asking profound questions. And I, I said, this is good. And I felt that in a sense it is also because this man is young.

He's young.

Yes.

Young people don't fear things so much.

Yes.

They are more blazing, brazen. They, they— you see, the thing with when you're old and you hang on to power is what you know is always what you know. Yeah. And so you judge everything in the future by your past experience. Now, when past experience becomes your best teacher, your future is imprisoned. Let me repeat that. When past experience becomes your best teacher, your future is imprisoned. Because it's all that you know. Young— when you're young, you learn from everything. You eat everything. Yeah. You understand? They have not had the experience. This doesn't work. This is the only thing we tried before, and this is the only thing that works. And so when we have younger people, they are also challenging all colonial systems. Yes, they're challenging it like never before. They are calling more people to accountability, even the church too, and religious organizations, especially in the church too. There's a— I told you, whenever there's a discontent, discontent starts revolutions. I like that word.

I like revolution.

And probably what we need is a political revolution. I didn't say coup, I beg. Yeah, not coup, but there's a revolution of mindset, thought, and challenging institutions that are ancient. And you see, especially for Africa, part of the African challenge is we are heavy on top. In our African cultures, when elders speak, nobody can answer, nobody asks questions. When our elders spoken even foolish talk, nobody can challenge.

Not anymore.

Not anymore, because the scene has changed. Yeah. When you still get elders around, they'll still talk like that. Yeah. That so-and-so has spoken, you know, Chief so-and-so has spoken, what can we say? Well, young people are saying, how, where, how, where, you know what I'm saying? To tell you the truth, and don't tell them I said this, I run a young emerging leaders from. When I'm going to a meeting with them, I'm more scared than when I'm going to any other meeting. Even a management or a leadership meeting, I need to have an agenda. I need to know that I can argue my case for why I'm asking for this thing to be done. I must be prepared for questions. What it does, it makes you a better leader.

True.

But you also understand that these people are not going to be quiet.

I'm going to ask you the last question. I know it's been a long day for you. Have you ever— are you on TikTok?

No.

Okay, you should.

I thought you were my friend.

You need to be on TikTok. There's something I want you to do when you download TikTok. You can search for The Door of No Return. Um, most of the Nigeria, we also have ours, but But most of the things you find in the search bar will be about Ghana. That's like a cave, I think, in Gold Coast, where the colonial masters will lead people through those narrow doors. Yes, and usually once you pass through that door, you are either going to be sold as slave or you die in the sea. The unfortunate thing is that just where they have that dungeon, above it is the church. And part of that demand for accountability is a younger generation saying that, hold on a minute, these guys brought religion to us and in a way to use that to blind us while they worship their God up above the dungeons. Women and men bled in chains in the dungeons, and as a way to dismiss that faith You are a person of faith. What do you say to that? We have people now, and this is still going on either in geopolitics where they use the idea of religion, the pre-Christian presidents, and so on and so forth. I don't want to call any sect now, while in essence they are pursuing something more cynical. But just using the name to get votes and do all those things. And we can also talk about many things going on in church and mosques and all those sectors. What do you have to say about the role of religion in colonizing African minds? And what should we do going forward?

Religion— most religions have principles that govern and guide.

Yes.

Most religions offer principles that should shape human life and human behavior. Yes. The interpretation and the expression of that is a whole different thing. Okay, can I say that again? The interpretation of the principles— for example, I'm a Christian. Yes, Christians. God said love one another, value human. Even in the Christian Bible, there's things about equity, there's things, there's, uh, uh, uh, Principles that should guide business.

In the Christian Bible, there is a place where it is said that slaves should submit and honor their masters.

Yes.

Slave trade is not good.

He didn't say— remember, it's contextual.

What's the context?

So the— in the Christian Bible, when it says slaves, you're talking about somebody has been— is already in enslavery. The context is that you give your best to the job where you are in. It didn't endorse— you have to read the whole Bible from the beginning to the end to see if it endorses the oppression.

I have this question in respect to the way people have been asking. Yes. Because, um, I mean, it looks like— hold on a minute— could this be the text that we're reading out?

No, I started to say something I didn't read. So, no, but I— but please feedback, feedback.

Could this be the text we're reading while they were busy capturing our people? And since the Bible says slaves should submit to their masters, Does it look like God endorses those things?

But God— did God send them to come and enslave us in the first place? No, no. So let's— so that's why I said, yeah, there's the interpretation, the human interpretation to fit human agenda, greedy agenda.

So people can take a good word, they can take a good principle to—

the expression of it is how they— not even their interpretation, the manipulation of that sheer greed and sheer wickedness. Because there's one thing to sell a person, there's another thing to dehumanize a person in the way that they did in the slave trade.

Yeah.

And excuse it. Because if true religion is true, there's also the human conscience. When a person does not feel the pain of another human being, please don't hide behind religion. They came cloaked in religion. But that which the actions that took place belie the same Bible that they were holding. It is not in accordance with it. True. The Bible is about liberty. Yeah. And human dignity.

Yeah.

And human expression in its best ways, and about helping people become the best sense of themselves. So everything was opposite. And so I would say that yes, human beings came with an agenda. They didn't see humans, they saw gold, they saw treasure, they saw wealth. They didn't just do it in Africa, they did it in India in different expressions. In the most places where there was colonization, it was always at the expense of indigens because of greed. However, I'm also grateful Even in my pain, that there is a redemptive factor. And that redemptive factor is that I would never have become a Christian if they hadn't come to our shores. Now, why do Africans always say this and forget that their own people were complicit? Who sold them in the first place? Now, this is even for somebody coming from the UK. I'm gonna bring another perspective. Yeah, we in the UK We're there with our fellow brethren, our brothers and sisters, Black brothers and sisters who are Caribbean, who were the results of the slave trade. Yeah, they were taken there and then of course taken from the plantations into Jamaica, into all the Caribbean islands. The biggest struggle they have is an identity one.

True.

Every year they have Black History Month, they celebrate it. You know who doesn't celebrate Black History Month?

Africans.

And I try and explain to my people, I say, you lost sons in your sight when they drowned and perished. To the African, we just lost gold and treasure. That's why we come to the West. So we still— once we are not grieving over our lost sons, spare me the hypocrisy.

Wow.

How many of us have you seen and say, this year We are grieving every time an African speaks. Ah, these people, they came and took— while we were praying, they took our treasure. Nobody mentions the sons that died in the middle of the ocean. Yeah, the dehumanization till today in certain Western countries of the Black race that they took there. Until Africa starts vying for that and fighting for that, spare me the double-faced Wow. Please forgive me, I'm only a little girl from Ghana spouting my opinion. What do I know? Interesting.

I want to say it's been a very remarkable one with you on this podcast.

Thank you so kindly for having me. I've enjoyed it.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.