THE REAL COST OF JAPA

What's one of the funniest jobs you've done? I think kitchen with Femi Lazarus. What about you?

I worked in a nursing home. I currently have a very bad back pain.

Wow.

Yes, as a result of the years I worked there, and then I developed insomnia. I was depressed for those 2 years.

Wow.

I ran away, sir.

You did kitchen porter?

Yes, sir, and then motorboy. So I follow—

What do you mean motorboy?

So I follow people that carry recycling.

So we go to waste recycling.

Yes.

When you want to do something and you see a white person tell you that he can do it for you and a black person tell you that he can't do it for you, something in your mind wants to pay the white person better than the black. We are just being built in a way that when we see probably someone that is a white man or anything, we just feel like anything they are saying is true. Yeah.

Do you consider— this is a very neutral question, is it yes or no? I'm going to go around. Do you consider yourself to be equal with whites, yes or no? What's going on? Why is it that the blacks don't ever unite?

They want to compete.

They just want to compete. It's all about I'm better than this person. Just find the person's flaw and just get to report the person.

You just don't see people that are genuinely happy for you.

But there's one more thing I feel we should not leave without talking about, and that's the subject of black tax.

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Now that you are in the United Kingdom, do you regret your decisions?

Um, Yeah, for me I will say no, actually.

You don't regret it?

I don't regret it.

You like it here?

I like it here.

Compared to Nigeria?

Oh, compared to Nigeria, I would say I like it here because it's all about, um, planning towards what you, um, have the vision of. Yeah, I would say.

So if you could go back to the past, would you still choose to be in the UK?

I'll still choose to be in the UK.

Okay, how about you?

I don't regret my decision, not at all, because, um, as of when I left Nigeria, that was the best decision I could have made considering the situation I was at then. So I feel like this place, even though I've not achieved what I want to, but I know this is a means to it, and in the end I feel like I'm going to get to where I want to go to.

Interesting. Yes, please.

For me, at the time, I regretted. I have seasons. Well, if you're speaking about this moment, no, but at the time, I regret it.

And that you use the word at the time because now you are considerably more settled. Yes, that's the word. So some people begin here with some quite some odd jobs, which is one of the reasons why people tend to regret What's some of the funniest job you've done?

Funniest job I've done, I think, um, I'll take kitchen, some parties. That's it, that's what everything I've done.

Yeah, black party, white party, what kind of party?

Any kind of party. What? That's it, that's one of the funniest thing. And as at that time, I was also doing photography, but yeah, even those my photographer friend, you see me at party and they don't come for events anymore, they be like because you are serving now. So what's going on?

Oh, so when your photographer friend sees you at parties, they felt there's no point calling you for event anymore? Since now you're serving food?

Since now I'm serving food. But then I was even warned, like my dad told me not to do it anymore, but I didn't listen because I needed money.

So wow. What about you?

For me, I worked in a nursing home. Um, I was doing care job. Yes, for—

I have said many things about care job. Um, what was your experience like?

Also, I would not lie to you, care job is in a sense like it's— you are helping people, but yeah, at the end of the day it takes a toll on you, on your health. I currently have a very bad back pain.

Wow.

Yes, as a result of the years I worked there. And then I developed insomnia.

Wow.

Due to stress. Stress-induced insomnia. Yeah. So, um, it's re— it's rewarding in the sense that from where we were coming from, you get more, you get more money, you get something at the end of the month, but you have to work long hours on your feet. We work 12-hour shifts. So when I came to Fontrio, yes sir, it was 48 hours per week. That was, um, my, my contracted hours. So Sometimes when I'm done from work, I just get home like I'm tired. I can't even do anything. I was depressed for those 2 years. Wow. Because I've never experienced anything like that. Having to work, having to wake up early, meet up, coming there. Sometimes you meet people, patients who insult you, relatives who are abusive, management that's not listening to your cry. And it's just—

I saw a video online at some point, a guy talking about different stages in Keijo. He said stage 1, like a comedy video. Stage 1, if you are eating, the person you're caring for is in toilet, you're outside. Stage 2, the door is partially open, you are there monitoring the person, you're outside. Then stage 3, the person is there doing the dump, you are there with your bread or whatever, and then we'll use it.

You are a master again.

You didn't get to that level?

I ran away, sir, because I couldn't cope.

Like, was it that bad?

Uh, for me it was, because I was working in a nursing home where we had complex care. So it was like we had people with spinal cord injuries, different types of people that needed stomach care and everything. Yes. You had to do a lot of manual handling, lifting. There was even a day I was carrying— I was using the hoist to lift the patient, and the battery of the hoist dropped on my leg. Like, that battery was like 5 kg. Wow.

Yeah.

So I was out of work for like 2 or 3 weeks, and it was not like even when I was out of work they paid— they didn't pay me for the time that I was not at work. So Yeah, I, I ran. Though some people would say that, um, it's rewarding, they can do it, but I just feel like it's not for everybody. Maybe the way I'm built, maybe I'm built differently, so, um, I couldn't really cope. However, what I'm still doing currently is still, um, care. Well, it's related to care, but it's a more— it's more of like, uh, it's not— you're not like directly, um, yeah, handling patients. And also it's more like, yeah, I'm just a support. You're supporting people.

Well, so you did kitchen porter?

Yes, I did couple of, um, mere job, we can call it.

We call it mere job?

Yes. So I've done— when I first arrived, I was still schooling then, so I was shuttling school and then motorboy. So I follow—

what do you mean motorboy?

So I follow people that carried recycling. So we go to, um, KC's you take their stuff out, take it to the side where—

No, no, you're making it sound too, too— let's break it down. So people that are recycling what? Waste recycling?

Yes, waste recycling. So I've done that.

Then from there, were you doing that while you were having your master's studies, or you, you already had your master's while you were doing that?

While I was scholar, I was still studying.

So you had your BSc Yes, well, it didn't count for anything in the system. Yes. So you had to do motorboy?

Yes, sir.

What's the job of a motorboy?

So I'm going to follow the person driving. So we have a couple, like 2 or 3 guys. So it's a truck, so the truck is gonna—

the truck is carrying waste?

Yes. So you take out the waste.

Are you in front of the truck or at the back of the truck? I'm at the front, sitting with the driver.

Yes. So that's a motorboy.

So you guys are going to offload the waste? What kind of waste?

So sometimes we go to factories, then we help them take it out, then we take it to the waste factory.

So you guys offload both load?

Yeah, offload and then—

oh wow.

Then from there I move to, um, kitchen porter. I go to schools, then wash the plates, help the chef at the kitchen.

Kitchen porter, you wash plates?

Yes, during the break times, you know, before they prepare the food here in the kitchen, they open the shelf to prepare the food.

Are you a chef?

No, I'm not a chef.

But you help the chef to prepare?

Yeah, yeah, kitchen assistant.

Carry knife, carry plates, forks?

Yes, and when the children, when the students finish eating, so they bring their plates, then you take the plates in wait for the wash. If you are lucky, some standard kitchen has washing machine. Yeah, sorry, the dishwasher. You just load it in the industrial, but some schools doesn't have that, so you have to use your— and, and then how much are you even paid for that? Yeah, because they pay per hour. Yeah, so around— this is what we work with agency, so the agency is going to take their own. So the school is, uh, 11.5 to over under range. £11, £11.50 or £12. I said that. Yeah, because they increase the minimum wage at a, at a time.

And that's like how much money? Because you also have limited time to work. Yes.

And then I can— yeah, that's true. So I can only work 20 hours as a student.

20 hours in a week? In a month?

20 hours in a month?

20 hours in a week. So in a week?

Yeah, but I'm sharing a week.

I bet you have many months.

Yeah, so we're looking at 11.5 times 80, around £880. Sorry, £880. Yes. And where were you? Your accommodation then was like how much?

My accommodation then was around £500, £600. Yeah, let's say £500.

Money is finished.

And there was car accident.

No, so then as a student, uh, you are tax-free.

Okay.

Yeah, so just a little, maybe little amount of tax, and I, you know.

And one of the things that surprises me is that in the midst of situations like this, you still believe that it's better to be here than to be back at home in Nigeria. Why? What's your view of Nigeria? Why, why do you see Nigeria like that?

Of course, for me, I would say the reason why I feel that way is because there is a dignity of labor here. Then you get respected for your job. Nobody's looking down on you because you're a motorboy or because you're working as a carer or because you're a kitchen cutter. And another thing is you get paid for what you do. It's not like sometimes you work in Nigeria, somebody's always—

do you feel who don't get paid for what they do in Nigeria?

Sometimes not at the rate that they should.

Yeah, so here you feel you get paid more?

No, it's not about even getting paid more.

At least you get paid in time for your, for your salary, you know, like you've worked, at the end of the month you ex— you expected something and then it comes in, it comes.

It's all there, that's the word.

But Nigeria, maybe you're working— my, my husband used to work, um, as a teacher in a school. They were owing him for 6 months, they did not pay.

Private school?

Yes, in a primary school. And he was teaching like 3 subjects. So you can imagine, you can imagine, um, something like that. You have family, you have bills to pay, and then you're expecting your salary to come in and it's not coming in. So, um, it can— it's, it's one of the problems. Then also, people are not being paid enough for the services they are rendering.

Like in Nigeria?

Yes, in Nigeria.

Do you feel you get paid enough here?

Well, I don't think we get paid enough here, but I just feel like it's a bit better. It's better. But just choosing one of the lesser evils.

Now, you see, the truth is, when we have the Cast Pride podcast, I don't get in people's way and their opinions about the conversation. I just want to hear their thoughts unfiltered. You know, here I am asking myself, you've talked about care job. You talk about catering service, it's even amazing. You talk about motorboy.

Yeah, I work in care too.

He's done care too, he's done elder care. In the midst of all those things, the pain that comes with them, the contradictions, there's still something within you saying, I'd rather go through this than to be back at home in Nigeria.

Yes, sir.

For me, I would say it's relative, like it depends on the, probably the person, you know, involved. Yeah, so for me, I think it's still better here compared to Nigeria. Because, um, I would say most of what I see in anything that I was doing then, in terms of even the catering, I was like seeing— like, I was even helping the person handling it, which happened to be Wesokwu, that I was even helping him in how to strategize his business. So it was not just I was just working there, yeah, me catering, and I was also involved in more of his day-to-day, like—

but there are those who make an argument and say that It also matters how you enter the UK.

Very true. That's very true. That is the main thing actually. It matters how you enter.

So are you guys saying that it means that you are recognizing that you didn't come here having so much to do, so you have to be subjected to the lowest place?

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, everyone's story is different.

What's your story?

So my own story can be different from some compared that he doesn't have the privilege. I don't have a privilege that the person has. Some, some of my mates in school, they don't even use their 20 hours at all to work. They focus their 20 hours to study because they don't have to sort it out because there are people who are sending them money. Exactly.

So are you trying to say in that situation, in the midst of that, you were the one sending money?

Uh, no, not really, but I'm not totally receiving all that I needed.

From home.

So it's like partnering with home and then partnering with myself.

I would say that it depends based on— but 80% of people, I would say 80% from, from my own perspective, are actually in the same condition of— but they came here for schooling.

Yeah.

And they are in the situation of, how will I pay my tuition fee? Then what do I have to do? Some people have to even decide, no, they have to make a decision probably to go to school. Anymore.

And but the schools, if you are not showing up the way you should, they will report.

That's what started that actually. So that's what made the school start with reporting.

Report to Home Office.

Report to Home Office because some people, they are all now about the money, and Home Office will deport you unjustified.

For me, I didn't come as a student. I came, um, via the Health and Care Worker Visa. So I understand that the students have it more difficult, like it's harder for them because they have to pay school fees and all. But either ways, it's not, it's not easy anyway. It's not. I feel truly you think the grass is greener on the other side. I, I, I understand that I have more privileges than them because I didn't have to, um, pay school fees, and then I had my husband as a dependent. But even at that, we're still limited, like, in the kind of jobs that we could do. My husband, um, studied architecture. He came here, but for him to become an architect, he has to go to school. He has to do his master's for 2 years. If we want to do that to enable him upskill and earn more, it would mean that we would be cutting so many things, like, we would not even be able to afford our, our rent. So he has to give that up, and I can work. I can work and study at the same time. I can only do maybe part-time, um, um, studies. I can't do maybe like a full-time degree with my— except I'm going to lose my sponsorship. So I also having to give that up as well to just stick with this, um, visa. After 5 years, hopefully we get the ILR, and then we'll be able to maybe study and then upskill. So for that 5 years, you are just stuck, or you limited to a confined space, having to wait to ensure that, yeah, you, you get your ILR.

Yeah.

A friend of mine said something I consider thought-provoking. He said that when you're dealing with the United Kingdom, you are dealing with a system that is experienced in enslaving people.

I agree, sir.

That's very true.

Do you— if you were from another country that is not Nigeria, do you think you'll be here?

Um, I think it depends on probably the country.

There are still some countries that are worse than Nigeria.

It depends on the country.

No, no, no, no, what you just did is not good. You are trying to drag Ghana into it. No, it's not. I won't take this. No, on behalf of my Ghanaian audience, I won't take this. It's not good. So are you saying that if you're a Ghanaian too, you prefer to just be here than to be in Ghana?

Absolutely.

Yeah. How about if you're a Kenyan? People have dragged this country, and I honestly, I'm not there.

I'm just—

I'm just hosting this and all that. So what you're saying is that for an average Nigerian student, Nigerian here, we just have to admit that one of the reasons why many people are here is because our nation has not treated us better.

Yes, that's true.

Can we also now say that that in a way has made them build a system and enslave people anyways? It seems they can't go back.

Yes, yes, because I think they are just more like exploiting even here.

And they are making it more harder now because they are currently, um, what's this lady's name, Shabana. She's currently pushing for a policy that would make people, the migrants that came in from 2021, yes, to start to stay for 10 years to 15 years before they can get the ILR, including people that have been here for a while now.

But your sister started that.

You came about it.

Yeah, he's your sister.

Well, I don't know, I just— I don't know her.

So yeah, we started that conversation, but we began the conversation actually.

I feel like she was pushed. To me, I feel like it was something they wanted to do and they just needed like a frontman, and she happened to just— you know, if they want to use— if they want your— to use, they can use your people against you. That's one thing I feel like maybe because of the face.

You, you see, some of the things you guys are saying, I'm just gonna say it out there that you are responsible for your opinions, in the sense that you are calling our sister a house nigger.

Ah, she—

I, I didn't say so.

You know where house nigger is? Let me give you a breakdown of where house nigger is in the slave trade era. Um, they get one amongst you who is closer to the boss, the system, He snitch on the rest. He acts like the boss and discipline the people on behalf of the boss. But at the end of the day, it's just being used like a glorified slave, but it's still a slave who doesn't have freedom. And that has been used in many systems.

I actually want to say, I think that's what has been done in Nigeria even.

In what sense?

Like, in the sense that probably even those leading us are also probably being used.

Oh, you feel many of the leaders— let's use the word Africa now— in Africa, actually, they are doing what they're doing on behalf of the powers that be? Yes. You really believe that?

I believe that.

I think that would have been happening, and that's why it's more like, um, we are always— like when even Trump said they were coming, so actually, yeah, so that's why we're always tilting towards—

it looks like a relationship where you keep looking to oppressors to help you. You're right, sir.

And we always believe our own thing are really inferior.

So, you know, there's something about Nigerians. Once they want to do something and a white man is not there, they don't feel that thing is authentic. You would see they would rather pay a white man to— maybe in dollars. In Nigeria, they would rather pay him well than to pay their people there that have that same skill or even better, a better or good salary. So when, when my husband was working in— he used to work in Cellplus in Nigeria, and they had this, uh, you know, they brought it— they, they had this Indian, um, person that works with them. Yeah, they would rather bring this Indian person in to come and work and pay them high amount of money in dollars and all, than to pay the people here to work.

You, you call those kind of people the expatriates?

Well, I would say so.

Now, some people can make an argument for this by saying that oftentimes that is done because those people have better exposure and the equipment they're exposed to where they are and all that. So let me give you, let me give you an example. For instance, There's a city, I mean, Ile-Ife, Osun State. I go there every once in a while for meetings. There's this very interesting hotel that they built in that place, and I felt, oh, this is a good place. And I feel, yeah, it's at least people can come in now, have good place, dig fine to stay. After a while, I went there for an event one time, and I lodged in that hotel. And I noticed that they switched off the gen around 10 AM, so people were left with the heat and in darkness. Then they will run the gen back around 5 PM. So I had to reach out to the management and say, no, you can't do this. This is blah blah blah International Hotel, and if it is international, you can't be switching off the gen, you see. And why? I said Whatever it is you think is good about the price of diesel, increase the price here. Those who know quality will pay for it. We are ready to. In fact, I offered to buy fuel for the gen for the period of time I'll be there, and they said no. You know what happened? What happened is that that very beautiful hotel, now it's a shadow of itself. They employed an indigene. Then the indigene that didn't understand the rules of premium service hospitality, wouldn't study anything in that regard, has no exposure in other countries and in other places, just brought up, we need to save money, and in saving money, let's be orphaned again. And by doing that, it's not just about the money you've saved, it's about the money you could have made that you didn't make because people check your quality and avoided it. So now I'm trying to make an argument that could it be that in organization, they found out that our own people have the tendency of bringing the local nuances into it. And then maybe those other guys, apart from their skin colors, um, brings a lot of exposure into those organizations. So this is an argument. Let's talk about— let's, let's, let's, let's argue this out.

Um, for me, I don't believe so though. In some situations, but there are some people that even Nigerians that are really very exposed, that better— well exposed, better in different ways.

Yeah.

So I think it's just more of a mindset thing. Like, that's like mindsets have actually been like more like being done. I, it's just, we're just being built in a way that where we see probably someone that's a white man or anything, we just feel like anything they are saying is true.

Yeah.

Or whatever they do, whatever they do is better, even not knowing that probably in the company or whatsoever they do is a black man that's even behind it.

So you say we have learned to link whiteness to premium?

When I was in Nigeria, because I was a civil, I'm still a civil engineer, I studied electrical engineering in school. So we know Julius Bega. Yeah, he handles most of our construction. Construction, yeah, road construction, highways. Yeah, so you will see these people in that sector, and I believe so that it should be there because we believe Western, um, countries are advanced in terms of infrastructures. So if we see these people in those areas, and we have, um, this, uh, I forgot the name of this man that built on Lagos. He was a civil engineer to the, um, I've forgotten his name, I'm trying to remember. So if you see this white people in those sectors, I don't believe we should play down on it because they really have the exposure, they have the experience, they have the expertise, and they have the equipment. So in those, in that regard, I believe they should undo those infrastructures while we will learn. But when we learn that we are, we have expertise in it, it doesn't play down that we should withdraw all this Take us out of it.

So you mean that we should not just take the back seat?

Yes.

We recognize the fact that these people have better exposure through their schooling and the organization we've worked with, but we should learn and then be able to take up those places.

And we should be given the opportunity to play it out.

But who wants to give somebody an opportunity to test run a building when the failure will mean that the building will crash? I'm trying to take a balanced perspective.

I actually think that one of the things— I understand what he said, but I feel like what he said now is no more like probably in today's world.

Yeah, I feel like— I think that's gone.

It's not even about Nigerians, even the Blacks generally. Yeah, I feel like we've gone beyond the level of we even taking the back seats. It's more about we are now so exposed even in our thinking, and the world is now— we are now living in a global world.

Yes.

And it doesn't necessarily mean you have to probably even travel abroad before you can learn many things. I feel like many things can be studied even online. There are many things, there are many classes that we can actually go, but I feel like what is really happening is more of the mindset of those that are even bringing the job out or probably giving the jobs or probably want to do anything. Like, even as we are seated here, or probably I'm just asking, probably this is what was not even after I said that when you want to do something and you see a white person tell you that he can do it for you and the black person tell you that they can do it for you, something in your mind wants to pay the white person better than the black Do you do that? Do I do that?

Yes. What about you?

Well, for me, I do that in some cases. It's not always the case for me.

So it's a thing of trust?

It's just a thing of trust. I don't believe if because of somebody's color— while I was in Nigeria, I always felt like the white was supreme because of how we see them in the car and then they have like 2 policemen following them. So whenever we are inside, we're always like, hey, look at you, but Oyibo is passing. It was like, that's how he saw them.

Let me ask you a very critical question about us. Okay, you want to say—

you want to ask that question? Like, if we have someone that is black, like now let's say talking about photography or videography, and I tell you that this is how much I want to charge, and a white person also wants to charge you that amount, someone will tell you that you can— something in your mind will tell you that you can negotiate with me.

Oh, that's true.

And you can negotiate with the white person. You want to negotiate.

I agree. I'll talk to you as my brother.

This is standard. I don't feel like this is their standard rate. Yeah. And that was where it comes from, actually. We don't even price our own the way they should be priced, or I think the way they should be priced in terms of even our wares, anything that's come from— we just feel like, power, less quality, low quality. Why is it this expensive?

I feel this is as a result of the experiences that we've had, you know. Like growing up, you feel when someone is— maybe someone is trying to sell their skill, they tell you they can do this thing well, but they end up not doing that thing up to par. Okay, recently Apostle was talking about someone who was talking about— is it Maranatha Chinchin?

So I'm just—

I'm just saying, sorry about that, but I'm just saying, like, a Nigerian Nigerian, or maybe like an African, sometimes when they want to do something, they— the way they, they sell their skill may not be up to par as what a white man— a white man want to do something, they would get the best, you know, like the best, um, trainings involved and all that. So sometimes it kind of affects the way we see, um, them in terms of when you want to buy a skill or when you want to buy a service. You feel that this person would have gotten all the necessary trainings. Like here in the UK, you have certifications, right? There is regulations. But in Nigeria, how many people is regulating, um, maybe like you want to buy driving course or something?

Oh, I agree to what you say, but I would also say I agree. Yeah, but what I want to say is that, have you also met some probably white people that are really poor with what they do?

Yes. Have you met them?

Femi Lazarus, that scam you?

Scam you?

Yes.

Have you?

I, I, yes, yes, particularly in the UK. Yeah, yes, of course. Yes, yeah, that's true.

That was the one thing that I would, I'll put it on, um, mental colonization. Yeah, maybe when we colonize, put on that chain, that era has been, has gone, but now we are still locked in, in our mind thinking that we are still inferior to them, even if it's still higher.

I want to ask a question to check something. Do you consider— this is a very neutral question, is it yes or no? I'm going to go around. Do you consider yourself to be equal with whites, yes or no?

Yes.

I'm better.

I'm better.

You're better in what sense? Not a matter of being better, equal as human being.

Okay, as human being, yes.

Yeah, as humans.

All right, as humans.

So this is the next question. You've been here for quite some years. Do you have white friends?

Yeah, I do have Argentines.

Close friends?

Not close friends, but I do have them as friends.

Acquaintances? They have each other's numbers?

Yeah, each other have numbers.

Yes, yes, I do.

Yes, yes, you do. What was it like, the mental shift? Because arguably, the first time you are trying that, it looks like you're trying to make friends with your superiors. That's true, in terms of human quality.

Something I learned something recently when I was trying to shoot one of the episodes of my food show, and I was supposed to work with a white person. But then I— my, my, my mentality shifted that day when I heard the way the person was talking. I just felt like, oh God, I was so disappointed. Like, you know, you have this feeling like this person is going to have intelligent conversation with you, but you find out that some of them cannot even Intelligence has nothing to do with skin color.

That's us.

You can be black, blue, white, and so, and be dumb.

But that's the feeling that we always had, that they were supposed to be more intelligent. But some people cannot even write their name. Like, they could not write their name. They could not speak English. I'm serious, like proper English.

Spell anything.

English. Could not speak English.

So you have It's very, very serious. But you are an English person, that thing speaking. Yes, that's, that's ridiculous.

What did they ask you?

They could not— like, we were having conversation and they could not— what they were saying, like, it was— they could not even write. Like, I asked them to write something, not articulated. Yes, they could not write properly. So I just— that day I just felt disappointed. I was like, okay, this is it, I, I give up. Like, now I know that they, they also have people that are poor. They also have people that, you know, like, are not literate as well. Most of us, like, an average Nigerian is sometimes more literate than—

yeah, that's true.

Some of them, you know, sometimes I feel that the, the, the, the— it's not about being literate, about the motivation. You, you did your master's here. Did you do it? No, not yet. You did your master's. So an average person has done master's, trying to do PhD. And the way you came in is actually different. You came in direct people work. For those who came in through education is because that's their route. So you have to study, and sometimes by the time you're done, they said you have to go, and then you kick it. What's the other route? COS, um, or you want to proceed and all that. So you have to study again. So it's like forced education, that education that the system is forcing you to have. Now, while it may look detrimental, in the long run it's beneficial. Yeah, sure, because now you've upgraded yourself to the point that even if you now decide to go back home, you're relevant for many things. So, you know, so for instance, if we say that master's don't count for much back at home it doesn't count for much here too. You don't know, because with master's you can still be doing care job.

Of course.

So the question now is, do you consider the UK a trap for a new person who is just coming?

Um, I would say it depends on the new person coming, because one of the things I tell my friend when they say they want to come is about you have to learn a skill, because if you don't learn a skill, you'll be trapped in the 20 hours. And from there, some—

it depends on how they can handle it. So the person should have a skill?

The person should have a skill.

That will make sure that you are not trapped in the 20 hours weekly.

You are not trapped. Yes, that will even make sure that probably what you're trying to make in the 20 hours, you can make it probably in just one weekend or something.

And I feel like if you're coming in, even if you don't have a skill yet, when you get here, you need to start developing. Look inside yourself and find what is not— what you do not even know that you have. So yeah, now I could, but I never— it's not like I did not used to cook before, but I never really knew that I could cook.

I thought you've been a chef for a long time.

No, no, no, not at all, sir. It was when I got here. Yes, sir. So it's just like I had to develop it as a survivor. Means like, okay, I can't keep defending. I thought she's been doing it for long. No, I, I started I think last year.

Wow.

Yes, I think it was one of those my visits that was your—

that was when I started, sir. It was the first time you— I think it was not the apostolic, uh, not the one you—

I know, because somebody that used to do it for us disappointed.

Disappointed. Yes, sir.

Now you even do it far better than the person.

Thank you, sir.

Everything is a hit back to back. Everything, sir. Everything.

Wow.

So you say that those who have skills tend to survive here better?

Yes, sir.

I mean, I will add to and not playing down on skills, and then see what you have from the inside. I will also add, because this is a— this work for me, the quality of people you know.

Yeah, yeah, you're right though, because connection works in Nigeria, connection works here too.

Connection works, eh?

Yes, connection works. You don't have to struggle, you have to do like this before you get some certain job. I've gotten some certain job based on recommendation, and there's one at the other side of my application, we just accept the I appreciate. Same way you apply for a job, now you get unfortunate in the next minute. The same way I applied for the same job, I got unfortunate. They asked me to apply back, and I was not seeing it unfortunate. It was one—

that's the standard word for rejecting. Um, unfortunately, he's like, you have not been selected on this, um, occasion.

I've seen people who apply for more than 200 jobs.

I've also— if not, because by now it will have— the record will have been deleted. I can show you mine. I have, I have—

you put me through some, some stuff together. She gave you the template of how to write my, uh, my application letter, everything, supporting statement and everything. So I've done that.

Oh, is Nigeria this bad? No, I'm just saying though, people are missing though. A lot is happening. Just travel through, um, we just want to show you something. I like— you don't have to do at the night. Just pass through Kogi.

That's my state.

You know, they went to your state.

Okay, they kidnap people in my villages.

The last time we were talking about that, and they've not been released up to now.

They've been there for over 3 months now, and they're still alive. Yes, they're still alive.

And I think that's another thing you guys enjoy here, the security.

Very important. The safety.

Safety.

The fact that you can— you believe you can go anywhere at any time.

I also— do you know, when I was in Nigeria, I used to have, um, I can't sleep with the lights off. So I thought it was trauma until I got here. Like, it was trauma actually, but when I got here, I realized that now I can't sleep when the light is on. So it was fear in Nigeria that made me— so I can't sleep when there's like— except you put the light on, I can't sleep back. It was like that. I've always been like that all my life until I came here. I realized that. So I can actually sleep with the light off. So it's fear.

Fear of what?

Fear of anything. Somebody can steal your phone. They've stolen my phone from the window, so you have to be alert. Fear of anything. Fear of being kidnapped. Fear of thieves coming in. Different things.

Different things.

One time, years ago, I used to stay awake. We're like 5 friends in one house. Everybody pastors. So I used to stay awake at night to study and to pray. One time, a thief from the widow got so frustrated and angry. So what he said was what made me know how frustrated he must have been. And he just shouted from the window, this idiot, you are not sleeping again. You understand? Like, this idiot, you are not sleeping again. 'You are not sleeping again' means that every time I come here, you're always awake. Every time he shouted it, actually he was so frustrated that he had the guts to shout it like, 'You saw he didn't sleep?' So everybody got up and like, the guy was gone. So I went to bed to sleep around 4:30 AM, and by the time we got up around past 6 All our phones were gone. Wow, all our phones.

So he came back with it?

Maybe he didn't really go far. Oh, he meant you guys to really get your phones. And yeah, everyone's phone were gone. And I suspected a guy that was the boyfriend of our neighbor, and he was the first person that came to visit us. Oh, in the following morning, all the phones were gone. But, but here too, it's not like things are that secure. You were in Pekka.

I wasn't Pekka.

They snatch people's phone here too as well.

Even in Central London?

Yes, yes.

Even your nice watch, they will snatch it.

Yes, it happens.

That's true.

But yes, it's not that—

in terms of the ratio, it's a lot like this, really.

But even here it happens.

And the air sector too.

Hello, but, but let's, let's be factual also. The rate at which you can access healthcare in Nigeria is faster. You're right, even though you have to pay for it. But for instance, someone can have fibroid now, you see your doctor say, oh no, we need to operate on this and all that, can we schedule you for next week? And you're ready, you pay your money. Here, most people here can't afford the private practice. So you have to be on queue for the government hospitals, which can put you on queue for like a year sometimes, each 6 months, waiting for when they're gonna have your surgery done.

And to be honest, it's not like the private practice is even that expensive.

It is, it depends, depends on what you want to do. It is very expensive.

Have you, have you, have you tried? Have you been there for—

yes, not exactly there, but I have a package which is more like you pay monthly for, which is like you pay like £100 monthly.

Oh, you wait for private?

For private. Like the likes of Bupa or some other things.

And for— is it for general checkup?

No, they— it's more like, like an insurance, more like an insurance. Like you can go to anywhere that you want. I've not done anything with surgery, but I know that it's also easier here. And it's like those that are working in public, big companies or other companies, they have those private things.

And then your kind of job, the role that you have now Is you, you are, you are now a supervisor or something?

You're in my kind of job? No, I'm now fully more of even doing more of, um, um, product designer and AI automation.

So, so, but you still do 9 to 5?

I don't do 9 to 5.

Oh, so you just do product design?

Product design, AI automation, and my media. And so that's it. Okay, okay.

That's why, you know, someone also said that the, the person you came to UK with, through whom you came to UK can also determine your experience.

That's true.

And what the person knows is what they will introduce you to.

That's true. It's what they know that they will introduce it to. They will tell you that's the way.

Yeah, because that's what they know.

That's what they know. And they're telling you don't move.

Behind the camera, we actually have— Have you done care job before?

Yes.

With all this, your camera and all the gadgets. So it's like care job is like a route almost everybody pass through.

He offers, uh, COS. Most of the company offers COS and the people want to stay back after.

Do they still do that?

It's more, um, tighter now. They've really, um, clamped down the, the getting the COS, but they still do it. Um, the NHS is one of the biggest provider of COS as well, so they still, um, provide.

But I think there are also other routes that people can use in terms of Global Talent.

Yes.

Um, in terms—

that's if you have talent.

I think every talent can be global.

You need to be at a level of recognition before they can give you the Global Talent Visa.

Um, there are those that are—

does the Global Talent Visa equal the opportunity to work?

Yes, it does.

Like, I think, in the field, in line of, in line of what they've—

what the talent that they were given the award for.

There are those that can be done for promising, like, I don't know, but you have talent.

Yeah, I have talent, but I didn't—

but your talent is not global.

No, my talent is global, but I didn't just go through—

how is your talent global?

My talent is very global because it's universal, actually. It can be used very well.

But again, one of the— that's one of the things A question, problem I have with some of your brands here, I, I don't think it gets the, the visibility it needs. I don't think your brands get the visibility in this.

Um, I think it depends on the person handling the brand.

Are you saying yours get the visibility in this?

No, I'm not saying mine get the visibility.

What do you do? Let me give you an opportunity to market yourself on the Transphire. Look at the camera and tell us what you do. Okay, so that people can know. It's your— see, this is your golden moment and you are going to pay me for this. Please, tell us what you do with these, your talents.

Uh, into media and hospitality. And hospitality?

Yeah, because we are married.

Because I'm married now.

So what kind of hospitality is that?

My wife under the hospitality aspect of it, which I under the media aspect.

Which, which kind of hospital?

It simply means that we are going to deal with, um, IM clients, probably their—

How do you combine media and hospitality? Is it catering service?

No, not catering service. In terms of transportation, everything they need to do. Are you serious? Talk to the camera. In terms of transportation, in terms of sightseeing, we did, uh, in terms of tourism and everything. And we all have the team ready. And we even, like, this Sunday someone actually came from South Africa who happens to be— oh, 3 people actually came from South Africa, which happens to be like, um, she was more of a top official in South Africa and she came here. So we handled that, the hotel, the cars. Everything. And even in terms of sightseeing, so my wife was the one handling our sightseeing. And my team—

so you guys talk with them?

We talk with them, give them the experience, tell them things that they need to see even in the UK and everything.

That's a very brilliant one. And then you also handle, um, cameras?

I handle camera. That would seem like a team of like even both photography, photography and videography, photography, video for events. And all that. So even now, I'm now more focused in business events and, um, what they call conferences, because weddings can be a lot and asking you for different— but business events and conferences, yeah. So that's what I'm focused on.

So the way people can reach you here, we're gonna put this— you give it to us so we can put it online, who can be able to reach you.

Thank you, sir.

And all that. So it means you owe me a tour. 100%. Okay, let me— yes, you mean— yeah, you, what you do also?

So for me, um, I'm— I cook, I'm a chef.

I want to say, as a very strong food critic, I criticize food a lot. You are one of the best chefs I've seen.

Thank you, sir.

And for me, that's a personal endorsement. In fact, I, I, there are food that you made and I wanted to just keep under my pillow. These two just in my head. Please continue.

So I'm a chef, I cook all kinds of Nigerian dishes, and also I have my own food show, it's called Talk and Chop, where I invite guests and then they talk, talk. Yes, about very interesting conversations and also cook together. So the guests cooks. So, um, and I also— my husband has a cleaning business as well, which we run together with my friend Kusi. We have a cleaning business. We do end of tenancy cleaning, um, house cleaning, attic office cleaning, every kind of cleaning here in the UK that, you know, cleaning that has to do with the offices, everything. Not every kind of cleaning. We don't, we don't wash anybody, but yeah, we clean offices and make sure everywhere is clean. We can do your carpets and make sure that your houses are clean. So that's what I do.

There's something very interesting about what both of you have said now. You see, both of you didn't just talk about what you do, you spoke about your spouses, spoke about your wife, your husband, whatever, your wife.

Oh, should we learn from you, sir?

You don't have a baby yet. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I just have to drop that. Because I need to start by advertising you. I've said that some of you, I'll put you on Gigi, that whoever is interested. But you don't even have a bae. How do you feel when they were saying what they were saying, talk about their spouses and all that? Both of you were both baeless. He left you in that group.

I'm happy for my brother.

You're happy for him? But so then, let me— you, apart from what you do 9 to 5, you're a supervisor where you work.

Yes, sir.

You also a fashion designer?

Yes. Yes.

So he's a fashion designer.

Do you still do it?

So, um, currently at the moment is still in the pipeline, the business still in pipeline.

Pipeline.

Yes, I have industrial mansion on my own. I'm working on my studio.

Very interesting.

Yeah, so that's my— I like wearing my clothes, so I make clothes that I wear myself.

But this one you wear it? This is— So, but this is, this is interesting. I mean, I, I just want to say that, um, you, you guys are doing amazingly well. I, I know some people who have worked with you— Obi Cubana, um, Money Farmer, Pastor Baze Ofori. Yeah, quite a number of people have been able to do stuff with you. Have you, have you worked with Cubana TV Prince before?

No.

Obi Cubana? Definitely. There are pictures and all that, and their events, and their events too. That's, that's, that's very cool. But now, I don't want to put you guys on the spot. If there's anybody who probably doesn't have so much skill, some figures I've mentioned today, doesn't have access to education, master's and all that, and the person wants to come here, what would be your advice to the person?

Uh, the person wants to come here, you don't have skills, it depends on the visa they are coming through, because I think those are the two ways. They don't have education, they don't have skills. So it depends on the visa that they apply. We should probably— I don't know the visa that would help them in here. So definitely no visiting visa, no business, because I don't know the visa that will help them in here. So yeah, because, um, but if they probably have education and they are here and they don't know how to go about it or anything, so that's when they can now say they want to learn a skill. Or— and I feel like why I say skill is because skill helps connects people in terms of you get recommendations. Yes, because how I was able to work with, um, Obi Cubana, like, was because of Pastor Rose's events. Yeah, and that was where I was able— and the event I even went for, it wasn't like I charged for it. It's a free event. And from there, from there, she was able to recommend you to Rose. And from there, I was able to meet someone else who actually made it possible for me to go. That was my first time of taking sports photography. Like, um, spot photography. So you will say, oh, spot photography, interesting. So, commentaires, stopper, you, you was just like, oh, you would like me to come for this spot photography and everything, and I'll take the picture. So I think that's also with SKUs, you'll get recommendations. So till you even meet the president, you wouldn't know, like, you just keep getting recommendations and people keep moving you forward. So that's what I'd say.

So I'm going to give you a contract. So, you know, we are going to have your wedding reception get-together.

Yes, sir.

We'll do it in the garden on— when is that? Saturday night. I think we should do Saturday night. So you, you are the chef, so you have to be—

thank you.

Can we invite friends? Invite friends. We do it. I wish I can drag Dara behind the camera so I can drag you. Both of you are in the same condition. I mean, we're going to add some of the videos, um, to this Declassified Edition, just talking about what life has been, um, for you guys here and all that. But another problem I've seen people deal with in this part of the world is the problem of loneliness if they don't have a community.

That's true. I think that community is very— and that's what all the Asian communities actually have.

I mean, I feel the Asians have better community.

You have better communities.

Yes.

Most events, all that we have here is like— but yeah, the one warning, so because there's something—

what's going on? Why, why is it that the Blacks don't ever unite? What's happening?

Also, there's something about these Asians, like they come together to help themselves. Yes, you see, they can maybe rent a house like this, all of them moving, they will share the bills, they will share the—

wow, and you can have just one car.

Yes, and one car, and then they'll drop each other and probably one person, they will come together, one person will buy a house, that person moves in, they do that for everybody. Before you know, all of them are homeowners. What's going on with— but if you do that with a Nigerian, I would not be able to share a house with them because I'm scared because of the experiences we've had. Oh, if an average Nigerian in your workplace is trying to make sure that you— he, he reports you and you're fired, yes. This I'm talking with experience.

Is this a trade away?

Afansels. You even sometimes see a Nigerian like you and say, hello, how you doing? They won't answer. I mean, you have seen the marks, you've seen that this is your—

when they even see you, they will change their face, they will look very strict.

Why? Psychologically, what do you think? What do you think is going on? Why is that?

I feel like it's more of the— it's just about what we've been talking about, about Nigeria itself. The mentality, the mindset. And we always feel like we have to compete.

You feel as a people we are not really good people, right?

Yes, they want to compete.

They just want to compete. It's all about I'm better than this person, just find the person's flaw and just get to report the person.

You just don't see people that are genuinely happy for you. I don't need to compete with anybody to prove that I'm better.

Just the opportunity and then close the door.

Yes, and make sure that nobody else is able to attain it.

So I feel like there's a lot to do with our mentality, like, because where I was working before, and, um, when I first came in, like, and, um, what's it called, there's this lady that she doesn't have, like, the British passport, or she has— she doesn't have an ILR. And immediately she's— actually, she was very calm while working, like, very calm, very good. Immediately she switched to having ILR, she was— she went all crazy. Oh, a Nigerian?

A Nigerian.

Oh, she went also because she feels like they can't do anything to her anymore.

So you now start noticing, like, I, I feel it, I, I feel it's slavery mentality. Like, I feel it's slavery mentality because that point, because the Pakistanis, they, they unite. The Indians are very united. The Chinese, Asians, even the Jews, the Jews, they are the peak of the pyramid. They don't joke. Their community is very strong. So here, and I think that has been, problem everywhere in the world, where as individuals we tend to have individualistic success, but as a community— and that's why we are easily defeated, that's why laws are made against us and all that. But there's one more thing I feel we should not leave without talking about, and that's the subject of black tax. An average person believes that as long as you are in the United Kingdom, an average family sibling back at home, you must be taking money from the tree. How you guys coping with that?

Yeah, yeah, that's for me, I would say that's a lot actually, even from everyone, friends, everyone. They just believe that since you are there and you have friends that tax you, I have friends that tax you.

They just believe that once you are there, everything must like—

and they don't want to even listen.

Have you sent somebody money before and the person feel like, what is this?

Ah, yes, I think I gave a person that— probably that was like last year, last year, I gave him like 50,000 and person was like, you are in UK, for God's sake, why should you say 50? What is this?

It's okay.

The paradox in between, um, on this context, some people want to— some people believe that once they get here, yeah, they try to, um, push themselves, make themselves more appealing than what they are.

Oh, we try to, uh, the nice pictures.

Yes. So yeah, where they create that narrative, people to believe that, okay, you're running this, and you want to prove that you are there.

You know, the way people's mind work is that if you want to claim you have money, we'll spend it with you.

That's it.

Yeah, very cool.

Sorry, for me, um, coming from my own kind of family, when I came here I, I was fending for myself already. Like, I didn't have, um, support from maybe family because everybody had their own family as well. So I was just on my own. So when I came here, I came here with the responsibility of I want to take care of my parents, I want my parents to live a better life.

Yeah.

So that's pressure. Immediately I came, I just felt like I owe my parents. So I need to, like, all the sufferings, everything they've done, I need to like paying it back.

Yeah.

So I started putting all this pressure on myself. And then another thing is people, friends and family that now know that you are here. Yeah. They now started sending me messages, all the problems of the family, extended family, people I don't even know them, people that when I was in Nigeria and I was suffering, going through a lot in those dark moments, nobody cared. Nobody even sent— like, nobody even cared about me.

No.

Yeah. So now that I'm here, all of a sudden everybody is now nice to me. Everybody now wants to be my friend. When I had my wedding, Apostle, I didn't even have bride— you know, the bridal train? Yeah, because I didn't have friends. Because people— because I, I was in a moment where I, I failed because some issues then. Yeah, that I had to drop out of university in my third year. People distanced themselves from me. People ran away, like people started gossiping about me. In fact, my class group, they've forgotten that I was on the group. They posted my picture and they were discussing about me on the group, and I was seeing it. And those times I could not tell them that this is why I dropped out, because it was, it was a problem in my family at that point that I had to drop out. But these people did not see. Even my fellowship people, they, they said it was because I got pregnant out of wedlock. They— I posted a picture of me and my younger— my elder brother's daughter. They posted me the picture. They said that's the reason why. And when I came to the UK, those were the first people that sent me a message that said, oh, how do we come to the UK? Oh, come on, that person. Oh, come on, help me. Oh, send me money. Oh, uh, your girl is here. Oh, this and that. And all of a sudden, this person's child is now, ah, you're picking. No, you're picking. I started having different issues. This person said, oh, I want to go to camp, I need this, I want to do this. I now became like the breadwinner of the whole world, like everybody that— and I didn't want it to be like maybe I'm paying them back for the times when they neglected me.

Wow.

I wanted to— Apostle, I did not have people in my weddings because nobody— like everybody did not want to—

nobody wanted to—

because I was a failure.

Wow.

Nobody expected I will be in the UK today. So seeing me in the UK now, and then all of a sudden everybody wants to be my friend. Some people now, I don't even respond to their messages because I don't have that money. It's not like I'm here, it's not like maybe everything is going that smooth. I'm still in the process, I'll get there. But they don't understand. Some people even calculate your salary for you. They like, ah, Femi Lazarus is £10. 10. When I came, I was earning £10.10. So they will now times this by Nigerian naira, and they say, ah, Femi, this is how much you are earning. By that, you remove my bills, my rent, and everything. I hardly have anything left in the month to survive. But people don't— they don't understand. And the pressure from the work we do as well. Yeah, sometimes when you earn this money, you don't even want to give anybody out of it because of the pain you went through before you can earn that money. But some people don't understand that if I give you £10, this is equivalent to 1 hour of my life that I laid down. It's just like blood. You know when, when those mighty men of valor went to get— they went to get water?

Water, yes.

And David poured that water out and said, this is the blood of these men, I can't drink it. That is how sometimes those £10, those £15, ah, it's, it's our blood we are giving for for that, that £10. But somebody will be there and say, oh, it's just £10, it's just £15.

The effort it takes to go to work, the effort it takes to do the work, the effort it takes to come back.

And sometimes inside in, were you doing that during winter?

Yes, in snow. This is how we'll be looking like cavemen, like, you know, people going into the moon. You would look like this and you'll be going to work. Sometimes you will slide. There was a day I slid on the, the snow, the dark black snow.

All about people that walk outside, that they walk description is to stand outside, like security or people working in hotel.

That's how I really stopped on fiber optics.

Yes.

So I, um, I have certificate for— I got certification for fiber optics. So for like, I have like 5 certifications on fiber optics, but that's why I stopped it. Because you work outside, you have to open all the flaplets and everything and do the networking, the code one.

Yeah, although I was on for adoption, so that's why I stopped construction because I wasn't civil engineer. I was a civil engineer.

Yeah.

So I walked in construction. So during winter, before the structure get a cover, during foundation, everybody's outside. There's no way you want to hide. So yeah, and my health couldn't take it. It was taking a lot from us. I have to quit from construction.

I was telling my uncle then, like, I can't because my aunt will be still. I said, you know, you have to— I can't manage this one, no, because, wow, these are how people just die.

And you— I don't think many people probably understand some of the things you guys go through here. And, you know, I have some take-home from here, this conversation. I just wish we become better as people to love people and care for them, not just when we perceive that they have. And then hopefully— and this is to the Nigerian community in diaspora primarily— that we will learn to trust ourselves more and build a better structure. Um, there are many people who are suffering things they should not have suffered in diaspora. If only we have learned to love ourselves and build a community for ourselves. At the end of the day, our environment is whatever we make it to be, whatever we contribute in it to be. And hopefully we get to learn from other people around the world who are working so hard to make things better, you know, for themselves. You guys have really given perspective, um, to the things that you're doing. Um, at the end of the day, I also put out— we put out the conversation and to show you the details of the— of Dara, whose equipment we're using for this, and those who want to contact him in the United Kingdom for productions like this. It's been so insightful speaking with you guys. Attak, so this video will be— is the after-party of his wedding. I just want to give you a little snippet of that. We really don't put this out, but then just, just catch some things and see what the media can do. I want to thank you guys for coming to this.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for coming. I'm going to be on your show. Yay! I see you guys.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining us. Thank you.

See you some other time.

Bye-bye. Bye.