IS THERE TRULY JUSTICE FOR THE COMMON MAN?

You feel the law protects Nigerians?

Well, the law is made to protect people.

I like the fact that you're not giving yes or no. Do you feel again that the provisions of the law is accessible to the common man? In the sense that by not paying bribes, not knowing anybody, just following the protocols of the law as stipulated, can a common man get justice? If the answer is yes, it means Nigeria is an ideal society. If the answer is no, it means Nigeria is not an ideal society. What's your answer? Are there provisions in the law that can make a free person become incarcerated and people don't know about?

Yeah, I mean, we have diverse laws.

I mean, at the state level, you want to give some of the weirdest ones that people don't even know about? They can take a person to jail now. So as individuals who worked hard for their money, they're supposed to remove the part of the government for the government.

Yes, because that's how society is supposed to be run.

Welcome you to the Classified Podcast. Um, myself and my team, we've been working so hard behind the scene to get get different intellectual conversations across you. We know that these conversations will form the basis for what will change our world as we know it, because words form narratives, narratives shape culture. And this is the reason why I want to invite you to join me on this journey, not just as one who is gonna view this today. I want to have you on board with me, and I, I like for you to just do these 3 quick things for me. Number 1, I'd like for you to like this particular podcast. You know, don't just watch, just like. I want you to do that for me. And when you do this, the algorithm takes this to as many people as possible who can now have access to enjoy the very same thing you're enjoying. Also, I'd like for you to drop comment. Let us know how this has impacted you, things you've learned, and sometimes just your own view. And I'd like for you to also subscribe on this YouTube channel. I'd like for us to grow together as a community. I look forward to having you again and again on The Classified Podcast, and I can't wait to see you some other time. Thank you. You are a lawyer of repute.

Yes, sir.

And you've been over 10 years doing what you're doing. Now, there are questions I really want to ask, and, um, let me start by asking, what do you lawyers do?

Do you—

are you supposed to uphold the law? What do you do?

Oh, we uphold the law, we work with the law, and, um, we actually ministers in temple of justice.

Okay, I don't know what those things mean, but do you uphold the law, you uphold your clients?

Well, you uphold the law and, um, you work around the law, and then you also represent the interest of your clients.

As against the law?

Not actually. If need be. Not properly so-called. Yeah, it's not a straightforward— you guys are doing it.

Let's look at, let's look at the situation now that you have a client. Okay, you as the lawyer, I think I've heard people say things that there are 3 people you don't like to— your lawyer, the doctor, your doctor, your pastor. People lie to the apostles.

They lie to us.

Okay, so all right, so look at the case now. This fellow, as a lawyer, there's a case on ground. You as the lawyer know that this fellow is wrong. If the judge finds this person to be wrong, then what happens is that this fellow will go to jail. What do you do at that point as a lawyer?

Okay, so, um, Iyawa Sas must prove, and, um, is on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt their, their assertion that, oh, this person actually did this. So for me, that I'm defending the client, you have to actually bring it to fore, really. So all I'm doing is saying my client did not do this. You have to prove, and I'm going to prove that through my cross-examination, really. So it's still up to you. I can't come out and come and say, oh, he did, because everybody is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Yes.

I saw an article this morning. I want to read it out. Someone said, in the court of justice, both parties know the truth. It is the judge who is on trial, actually.

So it's on the judge to hear from both sides, and then, you know, so you guys are playing on the intelligence of the judge at the court.

Is that what you do?

Well, he's trained to know how to maneuver his way through both parties.

There was a time that— it was a long time ago, We had a case, quite a group number of us like that. At one time, we noticed that the opposition party had a private meeting with our lawyer. Then the next thing that happened was that at the court, our lawyer began to go against us right in our presence and began to side with the opposition. That— does that happen? Oh yes, it's something you've seen before because this, this happened. I mean, I was in that case. Why is that?

Well, I think, um, this has to do with the persons. I mean, just people being persons.

Lawyers can take bribe, is that what you're saying?

Yes, people do, people do. People want to— they feel, okay, I've spent a number of years in this particular profession, so I should have made a statement with the kind of cars. And so they will do anything actually. So we have rotten eggs in every profession.

So then what's the hope of the common man?

Well, like I said, we have—

if your lawyer can sell you out, if police is not so your friend, what's the hope of the common man?

Probably we say God. Well, like I said, you know, we have rotten eggs in every profession, really. I've, I've, I've met wonderful men and women in the police profession, really, even among, even among lawyers.

Yes.

So I mean, that's like I would say, it's only God, and the person can only hope to meet, I mean, a very good lawyer. And that's how we always still advise that people should not just leave— don't leave the entirety to a lawyer. Of course, you must engage a lawyer in everything you do, but try and be conversant with, I mean, the basic day-to-day rights that concerns your person, really. And should be assertive as a person. Don't— you should be able to question things. Oh, really? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? And so once you begin to feel that, oh, this thing is no longer clear to me, you have the right to withdraw your files from whoever you are saying is your counsel that is representing you. And take it elsewhere and even call the person out because we have platforms for that to report any lawyer who, I mean, goes outside the profession.

How close is an average individual who doesn't know the law to jail?

Well, um, I— it's always a decision away. So let me explain.

Jail time is a decision away?

Yes, it's a decision away. So on the one part, I believe in, I mean, cause and consequences, um, life and death, there's just a thin line. Right now, if I have to scratch my— I mean, my hands with the wrist with a blade, I mean, in a matter of minutes I'm gone.

You bleed out.

Yes. And then there's also the, um, there's a thin line between freedom and incarceration. Yeah. So it's all— it all depends on cause and consequence. I mean, that's just for the normal part. Now, um, when I come to the other part of it, there are things— I mean, that law has stated that this is a crime, really. So you do this and then the consequences is a jail term also. But the other twist to it is that you might be in a crime scene and then you are one step away from jail time. Yes, you might be a spouse to somebody who has committed a crime, you might be somebody that is close, might be their friend. And then not talk of profiling of— I mean, police profiling.

Now wait, wait a minute, you're saying that If someone's spouse commits a crime, it can affect the person.

Oh yes, can affect. So, um, they believe that, um, people closest to you should actually know, um, your whereabouts. They know. Yeah, in fact, you know, there's this thing between couples as— because even, even at this— at the level of trials in court, you can't divorce a husband, I mean, from a wife.

Is that you saying that? You can arrest a wife for the crime the husband committed?

No. Yeah, the constitution does not permit that.

So what are you saying?

So, um, in practice, I mean, in practice now, you know, I mean, that's what we find out that the police does. Yeah, people who are either around the crime scene or people who are close to the person are people that people go after to arrest and say, okay, you can bring them in. Yes, for questioning and You know, and you know, in this, in this part of the world, we actually arrest even before investigation. Let's first pack all of them before investigating. Why? You find that out. I mean, in Western climes, they might investigate things even for 20 years before actually bringing this point in the most. So by the time they catch you, I mean, it's a done deal.

So what we do in this part of the world is not right.

Yeah, it is not.

Are there provisions in the law that can make a free person become incarcerated? And people don't know about?

Yeah, I mean, we have diverse laws.

I mean, at the state level, you want to give some of the weirdest ones that people don't even know about that can take a person to jail now?

Yeah, so, um, there was one I came in contact with, um, that was last year, and I found out that, okay, this person was into contracts, and you know, this person was not, was not using a company account to collect money. So which means the person is evading tax. Evasion of tax is a crime.

Hold on. Yes, I know that our tax laws are now serious. So you're saying that if you don't pay tax, it's a crime?

Yes, it is, because that's how the state is supposed to run. The state does not actually have money of its own.

Let's start for an average person. Will the government deduct the tax, or you have to remove it yourself and take it to the government?

So you're supposed to remit yourself, and at the end of the year, you are supposed to file annual returns. As a person, you do self-assessments at the end of that financial year. So which means by March 2027, everybody should have done a self-assessment and file same at their nearest IRS.

So as individuals who worked hard for their money They're supposed to remove the part of the government for the government?

Yes, because that's how it's supposed to be run.

How many percent?

Well, depends on, depends on the tax that we are talking about. No, there's a tax table, and even for companies there are different kind of taxes they pay, and you know, all of, all of those things.

So you're saying that the government can wake up tomorrow and ask for people's tax returns?

Yes, because you are supposed to pay. An ignorance of the law is not an excuse, really.

What about those who say that they are not seeing what the government are doing with the money?

Well, um, it's a concern that's very legitimate. Yes, because when you've— when you land, I could remember then I got to, um, was it Abu Dhabi Airport? So I can't remember now, that was some years ago. And I was like, this is like a city on its own. Like, this is a city. What is going on here? So You know, and then you look back and you're like, what's— what exactly is going— what exactly is going on? Is that— is— are we supposed to be living this way? So yes, concerns are very legitimate, really. So if we must pay taxes, people actually want to see what we are doing with these things. We should have basic amenities, really.

But what you're saying still, as a lawyer, is the fact that— for the fact that those things are not available does not give the citizen right.

No, because laws are made, you know, to, to, um, for level of safety. I mean, to control the society and so on and so forth. Yes.

So let's, let's look at the case now. This is an average business owner, okay, who makes, um, net profit monthly, let's say, a million. This small business.

A billion? A million. Okay.

How much is fellow supposed to pay as tax?

Okay, so, um, with the new tax law Um, any company that their annual gross turnover is, um, less than 100 million, they are small companies.

Yes.

So they are not paying company income tax and all of those things, but they have to, you know, make sure they are collecting VAT on behalf of government and remitting same VAT.

Yes, Value Added Tax.

Yes, yes.

So you are supposed to withdraw your own money and then take to the bank and deposit in the government's account.

VAT is not supposed to be your money for a, for a small company, really. You are collecting from government and you are remitting it for government. You are collecting on behalf of people and remitting same back to the government.

So basically everyone is a tax collector. Yes. So you, I want you to still get into the conversation that's touching. So you mentioned tax, the provisions in the law that an average person doesn't know about that can take them to jail. So apart from tax, what else?

Um, okay, so, um, there's this saying by Lord Denning, if I'm— if I can remember right now, it says that, um, um, God forbid that a lawyer knows all the law, but must always know where to find the law. You know, whenever I need to address matter, I must know where to find it. So there are diverse laws. I mean, we have laws of the Federal Republic of Nigeria from A to Z. I mean, there are diverse laws. And the law is saying there's no ignorance of, you know, ignorance of laws. I always advise people that, um, especially if you are running businesses, have a lawyer around your corner. They know the necessary compliance. Yeah, yeah, that you are supposed to do, not to run flat out of the law. For instance, for instance, if you are opening a company, you are actually not supposed to be even putting up banners and saying, oh, so, so, so, so, so, so, without registering it. Yeah, that is already against the law to start with.

So if you have names out that you have not registered, you mean, is it a crime?

Yes, it is.

Why?

Because the law says so. Those are revenue-generating agencies, really, and so they must bring in revenues for the government. Those are part of the ways that governments, I mean, generates revenues into the coffers.

I don't want to say what's coming to my mind. Okay, so you've mentioned that. Do you still want to go further in that conversation?

Maybe later. Okay.

Now, how important are lawyers to every organization? Um, for instance, this issue of tax filing, I know you can't do that without an accountant who will audit the account, and possibly a lawyer. Yeah, talk about the relevance in organizations. Of lawyers in organizations. Okay, just as oxygen is to water, just as, um, you're saying lawyers are like oxygen?

Yes, lawyers are the lifeline. I mean, it's in Africa that people still feel, wait till lawyer dey do self. Are you joking right now? Don't pray to fall into trouble. And then, you know, you know, there are a lot of things that people could actually have paid for, and then when they have to now run to meet a lawyer, they are paying times retain, of all of, all of those things. Lawyers are able to tell you, okay, no, this is the way to navigate. Yes, navigate this.

Yes.

If you have to reply people and it's already getting heated up, the lawyers will tell you, no, let's write it this way because if you say this, this will implicate you. You know, a lot of other things like that. Lawyers are very, very germane to an organization, very, very.

I'm avoiding certain things coming to my mind in respect to a very peculiar situation in Nigeria, because some of the things you've described, I kind of understand what you're saying. The relevance of lawyers in organizations can save you from loopholes.

Yes.

In deals.

Yes.

Documents?

Yes.

And all those stuffs— have you seen a bad case in respect to this before? A very, very bad case that someone just believe I can do it, I don't need lawyer, God has said I should go ahead, you know, I prayed.

Oh yeah, one comes to mind now last year she was like oh okay, there was a record label that called her. I mean the man, the manager abroad yes so she sings and since it was a friend of hers facilitated that deal and she was like God told her you know that this is— I'm like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Please, please, please. I could even remember I was driving around Central Area at that time, and I said, please, you have to put me on a call with this man. These are so, so, so things I'm seeing. This agreement does not gel. So, so, so, so, proceed. We have to be on conversation. You know, she was just putting in the religious perspective to all of yourself. Okay, it's fine. I tried to help her as, as I could, only for her to call me less than how many months and said, and you said, and you said so.

She signed?

Yes, she did, she did. And they treated her so badly. It was a totally bad case, really.

It was a totally bad one. She didn't read the clauses and all those stuff?

She read, she read, she read. It was a totally bad one.

Are you saying an average person cannot understand many of those without a lawyer?

Well, if it were— I mean, in the past, you know, lawyers used to have something called legal jargons that could actually be very— what a lot of lawyers actually now, I mean, diverting from that side.

Let's, let's say this is a document, um, I'm about to sign a deal as an artist. And this is a very long document. So you are my lawyer and then I've gone through it. I'm not seeing anything really bad, just seeing the figures of the money. What part of the document are you going to look at first as a lawyer? If you are, you're standing for someone wants to sign a deal, when a lawyer picks this document, what is the first area you are going to?

Okay, um, I'll first bring my experience to the table. Really, my experience tells me a lot because being in court, I've been able to see, no, this will not work. Yeah, yeah. So one of the things I look for is, um, what are your responsibilities?

You look for that in the document?

What is your— what is the indemnity clause? Because if you really get a lot— indemnity clause is a lot, is a lot when it comes to agreements. No, the responsibilities of parties, okay. This is how far your liability will be. This is aha of parties. What are the roles of parties? And it actually depends on documents because we are talking about land agreements. I want to see the recital parts. I want to see what is the history of this land before it got to the person that is trying to sell to you. That's one of the things that is very germane to me as a person for land agreements, for instance. Okay, yes.

What about the case of Record Label?

Record Label was Well, um, I want to see the number of years that, uh, yeah, because some can actually be like a slavery and, uh, yes, turned into forced labor. Yeah, yes, I want to see number of years. I want to see the remuneration. Yeah, yes, I want to see, um, you know, what goes behind the handling of the person's maybe social media and all of those who have access. Yes, and all of those processes.

So it could be all right, all outright slavery.

Yeah, it could be, it could be. And some, they won't tell you, okay, they'll give you so-so patrimony per month and you know, that is it. But how do— and they wanted to, you know, dish out so-so certain number of— they are saying there's EP, there's singles, all of those things they want to dish out in the number of years. How do you expect that this patrimony you are giving to this person monthly is going to help that person to actually bring out their best as regards giving you all of these things? So it's one of the things I actually look out for.

Wow, one really can't do without a lawyer. No, real life situation. Okay, you have a friend came to sleep over in your house then died. What's a lawyer's first advice? Who do you call first?

Call your lawyer. Call your lawyer. Okay. Yes.

What's a lawyer's first advice?

Well, um, actually, if— let's— we are assuming now that you did not do anything, right? We are assuming.

Yeah, don't use the word you. Assume the person did not do anything.

Yeah, we are assuming the person did not do anything. Yeah. So, uh, actually, very first point of call is always report yourself at, um, the nearest police station. And that's why we have divisional police They will still lock the person up. Oh yes, they will, because it's already a capital offense now. I mean, I know, like I said earlier, we do arrest before investigation, just first come inside before we now start looking for, okay, did you really do this or did you not do this? But you know, the fact that a lawyer is there, I'm able to tell you, you dare not say this. Even if you know all the truth, you don't go all the way to speak all your truths and come out here saying, oh, I mean, you know, some— because I've found, I've met very difficult clients. And why am I calling them difficult? They feel, oh, they are pure at heart, they are very innocent, and then they want to say, oh, everything as is coming to their head. No, you say the truth, but then you, you package it as they are.

So this statement police made that make that you have the right to remain silent.

Yes.

Anything you do or say will be used against you.

Yes.

How true is that?

Very true, because even among— I mean, this is the relations with most people. Yes.

So if the police said you said this, where's the proof?

Then when we now get to trial stage, now that's when we now wait for the prosecution to actually prove their case. But every other thing you said, every of the thing, probably the person said, oh, he angered me, there was one time I felt like stabbing him. I mean, if you say that, he's already— you're already adding— the person is already adding to, compounding to the evidence of the prosecution. So it's always good to count carefully what someone is saying. Actually, at those very sensitive times.

Is there a provision in the law that handles domestic violence? Yes. What about two young people who are not married yet and one is being violent towards the other person?

Yes, it's not— it does not cover only couple.

Even in Nigeria?

Yes.

What's going to happen?

Oh, arrest. There's arrest.

But most time when people go to the police, they laugh at the person.

Well, uh, can I ask you a question as a lawyer? Okay.

Do you believe in the police force?

Police is your friend. I work with them on a daily basis, almost on a daily basis. Yeah. Aha. So, um, I've met great policemen and I've met the Yes or no question. I've met great policemen and I've met, you know, but, um, do you believe in Nigerian Police Force? Nigerian Police Force? Yes, they can work if they want to work. Actually, they work if they want to work, and they are very intelligent, very, very intelligent. They have the right tools because, you know, I mean, we work together. They have the right tools. If they want to work, they work.

Look at this real life situation again. Have you seen cases where in churches power is moving, somebody's rolling under the anointing, the man of God say leave him, leave her, leave her, leave her, roll, roll, roll, eat the head or something, died? Is that murder or manslaughter?

Is none of the above act of God? No, definitely not that, of course.

Out of who?

Out of the spirit. Well, that's just an aside, uh, you know.

Do you mean when you say act of the spirit?

No. Okay, okay, that's just an aside. Okay, so, um, you know, murder is intentional. We have actus reus and mens rea. That's action and intention. Oh yes, yes, that's murder. But you know, manslaughter is, oh, I didn't want to, it happened.

What is that one?

So that one, well, uh, it's not, it's not— I won't term it manslaughter really.

You don't want to term it or the judge?

Well, I'm a lawyer, so I have to defend my clients.

Who will they sue in that case?

They'll sue the church, you know. I know families can be very emotional when it comes to those things. That's when you realize, oh, these are people that— these are people who are really our friends or not. As you know, this person has a family, really. Yes, of course there's going to be a lot of uproar, there's going to be a lot dust raised. There's going to be a lot of, you know, exchanges and all of those things. But at the end of the day, really, you can't point to the fact that the man of God killed that person. No, he fell down, fell down in the spirit. But it's just best that, you know, we are more careful. And that's one of the discussions we're having now. People should be more careful. And I found out that churches now are more careful about it. They ask you to, I mean, hold the person, assist them, and all of those things. So I would not get out in those programs.

So you are the one that should not let anybody kill you?

Ah, yes, yes, because trials can be very lengthy in Nigeria. It's not worth it.

I'm surprised at this answer.

Yes, whether civil or criminal, it's not worth it. That's why a lot of us tends more to ADR. And you see big companies, when you see our section for jurisdiction, all of those things, we just do multi-door courthouses, we do arbitration and all those. You won't see, oh, we are resorting to jurisdiction. Of course we don't have time for all of those things. Charlie, you know, most national companies don't have time for that. Let's just pay an arbitrator and let's be done with this. And then the judge just assents to it. I mean, that's the judgment of the court too.

Ah, this is a serious one. Okay, look at this now, because these are— I just want to get insight into day-to-day living. Do you think that The law protects influential people. Let's say, for instance, someone begins to video you without your consent, maybe in the public space. Is there a provision in the law that prohibits that?

Well, um, I think, um, there's an act that is being pushed. I mean, there's a bill rather that is being—

does that also concern things around cyberbullying? Yeah, cyberbullying, a thing in Nigeria?

Yes, it is. Ah, it is.

What is cyberbullying?

It is—

what would you term as cyberbullying?

Yes, it is, um, you know, I mean, trolls online, um, you know, bringing people's pictures with AI You know, that can be a thing too. And changing it and saying, oh, because I've seen a lot of pictures now where, you know, influential people are left naked. The AI pictures are—

are you sure?

Yes, are they online? And those are cyberbullies really, because it changes, um, how the reasonable man perceives this person in the society. You are distorting the view of the society about this person.

Yes, I mean, I— we're having a conversation with Dr. Stella.

Okay.

And he showed us a video that someone had made with AI using our image to advertise a drug. Is that cyberbullying?

Yes.

What could that cost the fellow who did that? How many years in prison?

Ah, I might not be able to—

Are you saying online insults is also cyberbullying?

Online insults Well, people throw jabs, but you know, there are some insults that— I mean, a lot of people now come online because they are behind keyboards. They say a lot of things that an average person should not even say to another person. Yes, yes, yes, it is.

But I feel not all states in Nigeria oppose laws of cyberbullying laws.

It's not, it's not a— it's a, it's a federal thing. Yes. So you report cyberbullying to police, really.

Will they take you serious?

Yes, they do.

Do you feel the law protects Nigerians?

Well, the law is made to protect people.

I like the fact that you're not giving yes or no.

The law is made to protect us. Yes, um, just like I said, um, every—

do you feel an average man gets justice?

It depends on the room they walk into.

So now you have to know who?

Yes, and does not really have to be somebody high up there. It's just about meeting the person who had said to do their work in respect of the case.

Can an average person get justice by just following the provisions of the law without having any connection?

Well, they may not really get it.

In a very sincere perspective as a lawyer, Ah, I work with this people every day.

So, um, there's this, um, perspective that is quite worrisome to me, and that is, um, you know, paying for petition. Yes, yes, paying for petition, it can be a lot.

I mean, you pay You know, um, paying.

Yeah, of course, when you do a petition, yes, you are taking to the agency, to the agency involved. If it's trafficking, you are taking to, um, NAPTIP.

So you have to pay for them too?

Yes, you know, quite a number of—

In Nigeria, do you also pay for mobilization?

Oh, you have to because that's administrative fees for them.

They will not go after the criminal until you have paid?

Yes, because really, to be, to be now, to be honest, I mean, to be honest, to be fair, yeah, to be fair with them, yes. I mean, that's the word. You want police to carry their car, their personal car, they don't even have a van to start with. And then these people, they are not even given administrative impress or whatever to run the police station. They will eventually ask the common man to— he said that you are paying me or I'm not moving to run. They will ask you for money to run. In fact, they will ask for money for paper to write your reports. They do.

Is that supposed to be so?

It's not supposed to be in an ideal society, really.

Even in our society, is that what the law says?

No.

Is it illegal? Is that illegal? So legally, what's the hope of the common man?

So, um, for me, I believe in the Nigerian project. And like I've— like I always say, and I'll keep saying it, for every profession, they are the good ones and they are the bad ones. Really?

I get— I get you.

Yes.

Now you're saying someone stole another person's phone, you've tracked the phone, you know, okay, they will ask you how you track the phone, but you know who stole the phone. To get the law to move from point A to point B you pay for mobilization.

Not to get the law, to get the people who are supposed to enforce the law.

Okay, I thought we both want to use codes. So to get the law enforcement agencies to move from where you are to the person who stole the phone, you need money.

Yes, you actually do.

If you have money in excess, would you be looking for phone in the first place?

Well, that's a very mean, worrisome reality.

So in the Nigeria of today, there's no hope for the common man legally?

There's hope. I still believe there's hope.

You believe?

Yes. And I know it's because, like I said, I've seen, I mean, people who are all out there, I mean, they are doing their work really well. And then you've seen the rotten ones too. So I hope the common man walks into the hands of the good ones who are trying to do their job.

How do you identify them?

That is—

it's concerning what we are discussing. Yeah, it's weighty. Do you feel again, that the provisions of the law is accessible to the common man, in the sense that not by not paying bribes, not knowing anybody, just following the protocols of the law as stipulated, can a common man get justice. If the answer is yes, it means Nigeria is an ideal society. If the answer is no, it means Nigeria is not an ideal society. What's your answer?

Well, the common man cannot really get justice. Mm-hmm. Cannot.

So the law doesn't work for the common man.

It's not the law. The law itself is good. It's the people are supposed to enforce.

So what can the common man do legally?

Legally? Yes, because even the common man, to get a lawyer, you have to pay the lawyer.

You're a lawyer?

Yes, and I'm not going to do pro bono like that. So I mean, it's a long walk to freedom.

Are there provisions where, let's say for instance, this property struggle, okay, this fellow doesn't have money to pay lawyer and, um, the case looks good, like at the end of the day if you can get this person's money back, then you can take certain percentage?

Oh yes, that's also another way of paying lawyers. Really? Percentage basis, you know.

So you can just say that you work for free?

Yes.

Is that gambling?

No, it's not gambling. It's part of the, um—

what if you lose the case as a lawyer?

Oh yes, that is— I mean, that is—

you agreed in the first place?

Yes.

So in that kind of case, you take like what percentage?

It depends on the negotiation between both parties and the values.

Yeah, between what percentage? Let's say this is 100 million naira.

100 million naira. Well, if I have to put in my lawyers my resources, because going to court every time— today the court is sitting, tomorrow the court is not sitting, tomorrow the courts are joining, and all of, all of those things.

You're welcome.

Yes, so we should be talking about like a 60/40.

Who is taking 60?

Oh, him.

Then lawyer takes 40. So one thing we are both agreeing at this table is that As it is today, legally, things doesn't really work for the common man based on the situation of the country. I'm not trying to put you in the spot, just based on the situation, observable situation.

So, um, I think one thing I've realized— let me, let me take it here— there's one thing I've realized. I've realized that And because of the cocoon that our leaders live in, and it's not by choice, it's by the office, they are shielded away from actually a lot of things going on in the society. And it's whatever people around them—

when you said it's not by choice, you mean it?

Yes, I mean, it comes with the— I, I really mean it. Okay, I really mean it now. So it comes, I mean, with their, with their offices. Yeah. Yes. So, um, I've realized that the impression I used to have about, oh, agencies in Abuja, ah, you need money, you need money, you need money. But for every time I've had to walk into all of these institutions, yes, I was treated well. And not for, I mean, not for once, as somebody said, oh, bring so, so amount of money. I even realized that even up to things that, I mean, we charge, people charge down west, you know, they put a lot of money on all of those things. I've seen that really the government is actually trying to make A lot of business, I mean, maximize profits. For instance, let's talk about school, EFCC. It's free, but then you see people telling you to bring 70K, to bring 80K, to bring 40K, to bring all of those things. So just as, I mean, really, you find out sometimes these leaders are actually trying to do their best and work, but like I was saying earlier, enforcers of those, of those laws. So it's a point to find that it's even among ourselves I mean, the common man, the common man and citizens of Nigeria, we are still trying to lord over each other because of this. It might not really be a leader kind of problem, and then the law is the law, still the enforcers really.

Now you're a lawyer, so when you describe the kind of scenario you have described, the agencies understand that you know the law. Law, so they treat you with carefulness?

Usually. Okay, now I'm not even talking about law enforcement agencies, agencies that I don't even introduce myself as a lawyer, really.

Do you feel there's an advantage because you're a woman?

Not really, not really.

There's a case on my mind. Let's talk about allegations.

Okay.

Public allegations. Someone has alleged that someone did something publicly and the fellow did not do it. How bad is such situations?

Very, very bad. Very, very bad. And then there's this funny thing that Nigerians are doing. I think I put up a post about it recently. People will be saying—

they are putting allegedly, allegedly to say all sorts of So when you add things— sorry, when you add allegedly to a conversation, it does not still exempt you from that.

It does not absolve you of liability, really, because people put allegedly to start saying all the things they can gather up. I mean, things that are never true because they're already defaming this person. You don't have facts before you, really. Do you have to really say it? Why now try to put allegedly?

People open fake pages.

Yes.

Post something publicly about the person. Add allegedly to it because it's a faceless page. Can they be traced?

Yes.

Down to their house location?

Yes.

So nobody's really eating?

Nobody's really eating.

And despite the fact that there's allegedly there, they can still be prosecuted for it?

Yes.

So once you allege What you can't prove is a crime.

Yes, because in the face of the com— of the average man, you have defamed this person, you have brought, brought down, you know, you have lowered their reputation in the face of the public, alleging what you are not even privy of, what is not a fact before you, what you don't even know, what's my experience. So why do you have to mean go out and then you put allegedly just in a bid to monetize, to get money? And you know, since the whole Meta vibes A lot of people are actually going out of their way to keep writing allegedly about people. No, they're going to be prosecuted, really.

So people can be carried for this?

Yes, they do. No matter— because I remember one in December, I think there was a man, there was a particular guy on Twitter, I guess, was always trolling the wife of the man. The man came from UK, I think even it's like a gift to his wife, came from UK. They traced the guy, they picked him up, and then turned out to be one small young boy. Then the family were begging. In fact, Nigerians actually supported that one, that yes, enough is enough, really. You stay behind keepers and then you keep saying things you don't even know about people. It's so terrible. I think I saw one, was it day before yesterday, of an artist was online and somebody was saying because she had HIV now, then that was why she didn't hold the concert she was supposed to hold in a particular university.. And I saw people writing that, oh, is there an update in prison now? Is there, you know, is there, you know, a lot of— they're trying to tell the person that, I mean, how will you go out to make such kind of allegations? Probably there's, there's no longer stones for beans in, in prison, and then you are actually ready to go. It's very bad. It is very bad.

Femi Lazarus was alleging that the artist has HIV.

Yes. And if the person does, why should you bring out that kind of private information out to the public?

Why? I've seen the case of loan apps that someone has gone to take a loan and then they start messaging the contact, please beware, so-and-so person is HIV positive and has stolen money from all those things. Is that legal?

Not legal at all. In fact, a lot of them are shark loans. They are just popping up here and there, and I've seen colleagues that have actually even gone— I mean, taking all of these things to court really against those persons. It's very bad. We don't.

Some of them employ people that will be raining curses on their—

they won't train them. I, I was, I was able to talk with one some years ago. They take them to Benin. Like, that was like I said, there's a particular school in Benin that— you know, the person said, you know, that they take them to a particular—

you are using allegedly now—

I think there's a particular state, and then there's a school there for them to know how to, you know, call and arrange courses.

Yes. You know, in America, people make money from the law all the time. If I, for instance, someone was standing— this happened at Lubbock, Texas, in front of McDonald's. Um, no, sorry, um What's this big store for selling groceries? Walmart. Then something from the signage fell and hit him. He sued them. Yes, he said he first sat down and laughed. Yes, finally he sued them. And there, the provision of the law is fast. They process it quickly. You tell the amount you want to collect, they pay. But we've seen cases where vehicles of prominent people will maim or sometimes even kill an average citizen, and they will not even cater for the bills or be responsible for anything. Because the whole crux of this conversation is lost the hope of the common man. So in that kind of case, you can't sue them. You can't sue them, but it's about who has the biggest lawyer.

Exactly. Or who has, you know, lawyer that can actually come to the public, you know, make it public. And know, that's why you see that quite, quite a number of people tend to, when they have situations like that, they want to meet—

Let me ask you a situation. In that kind of case, someone has named another person, you have been called as a lawyer to stand in for this person, you get there and meet the opposition lawyer, happen to be a mentor you look up to a great deal, a son, someone you still want to learn under. What do you do?

Well, um, for our work, we have— there's something we, we see ourselves as there's a brotherhood when it comes to lawyers. Yes. And then sometimes that's our lawyer— our clients fight us. I mean, when you finish court, I mean, proceedings for a day, you see them say, why are you talking to that? Oh God, why? They'll be asking, why are you talking to that lawyer? No, we are brothers. Because you can be at the opposite side today and then fight each other. No, we don't fight each other. We leave the profession professional, we leave relationship relationships. Really? Yes. So that's why you find out that you can even face your— probably this person was your boss, why you You once work that person, but now you're at opposing sides, you do your work.

Have you faced a mentor before?

No.

An ex-boss?

Mm-mm.

If you see one, you just go ahead?

I'll do my job. In fact, I'm sure they will proud of me.

Have you lost a case before?

Yes.

The person went to jail because you lost the case?

Oh, it's a civil matter.

Okay.

Yes, civil matter.

Have you won cases?

Yes, we have several, quite a number.

One of the things we are wrapping up this conversation with is that a common man who doesn't know anybody, the law doesn't work for the person.

That's going to be a loss for the person, really, and it's very sobering. Bring is very alarming. It's very saddening, really very, very saddening.

What do you think the government can do?

Well, um, we've had, you know, the government has been able to provide— we call something legal aid for people who are indigent to be able to get, you know, lawyers to, you know, stand up for them. Yes. Oh, this person does not have money. In fact, we've had cases where, um, the judge, you see the judge, you say, oh, is anybody wants to stand in for this person? And you know, quite a number of times just a lawyer stand up and, you know, really take up that kind of—

free of charge?

Yes, for those persons.

Who pays the lawyer?

That's pro bono. It's part of our job, really, that this fellow can't afford. Yes, and you take it all the way, really all the way. And I found out that really when they realize that Oh, this person who appears at place now as a counsel standing for them, the one who knows their onions, really there's a pushback.

Do you advise— I know every citizen is advised to know the provisions of the law. Are there materials that simplifies it, both the boundaries and your rights as a citizen of Nigeria?

Well, the Constitution of Nigeria is available for everybody, whether in PDF or in their printed form. Just know your rights, really. Yes. And that's not all that the Constitution actually contains, you know. It contains, you know, the different zones in Nigeria, different, um, legislative houses, this and that.

And is it a crime to sell votes?

To sell votes? Ah, yes, it is.

It's in the law?

Yes.

Is it a crime to buy votes?

They are one and the same. It's merchandise.

Is it in the law? Are you saying citizens can sue politicians buying votes?

We've had people who have done common public interest cases, but then a lot of times it's always the fact that do you have your evidence? Evidence really. And number 2, what's the local standing? Because you know, there's a lot of frivolous and vexatious cases people just bring it to court. We ask you, what is your local standard? What is your— like, how does this affect you? What is your link?

What do you stand to gain?

Yes, what is your link actually to this matter? Are you a party to it? Okay, even if you are able to establish that, now do you have the evidence to back it up? Are they going to make those things available to you? Except maybe, probably you took pictures, probably, and then you have to back it up because person might be saying, no, he was just trying to greet people on the polling— in the polling units, he was trying to greet people on the voting day and all of those things.

Is Nigeria an ideal country? Well, it depends.

It depends, really.

Yeah, of course. I just wanted to help you say that.

It depends.

It depends.

It depends. Because really, I don't think an ideal country is utopian. I don't think any country really has gotten to that point of being ideal. You can just be father— you can just be mean, more father than each other.

Thank you. Thank you for coming on this program.

Thank you, sir. Thank you.