MANY SUCCESSFUL MEN ARE BROKEN. THESE ARE ISSUES OFTEN LEFT UNDISCUSSED . #declassified #podcast

So you believe that most of the contradictions that we see in the life of men today can be traced to that issue?

Not everybody that is wounded is wounded because they didn't have a present parent. Sometimes some people are wounded because the parents were too present.

The fact that the parents were too present, yes, can become a matter too.

Oh, of course. You can commit adultery even if you never committed fornication. Yes. I think this is something people don't realize.

In fact, if care is not taken, from my place as one who counsels often, that is very— the propensity is very high.

Many people just think that the reward for sexual purity is sexual satisfaction. God never said that. There is a way you grow up in hardship that you believe life is hard, and because you survived hardship, you believe everybody should survive hardship. So you're not even aware. Have you seen some of these fathers that will say, at my age, I walked how many kilometers to go to school? That's wrong, sir. But I found myself looking at my son and telling my son that you don't know how easy your life is. And I'm like, you're not doing anything special. That it wasn't done to you does not mean it is special. And some men have that challenge. You are bringing barest minimum to the table, but because you never had barest minimum, barest minimum looks like a big deal. If you come from a broken family, if you come from a broken background and you feel that you're doing better than maybe your father, you want the world to see because your shame was visible when you were growing up and your father and mother used to fight. Your father used to beat your mom and the neighbors used to be aware. Your shame was public, so your recovery, you also want it to be public. That's why you see some people in their secondary school WhatsApp groups, you see them just flaunting because they were the poor kid in secondary school. Now that they've made it, they want everybody to know that that poor kid is she's no longer that poor kid. Hmm, why do you need to prove a point? I know people that have never attended another person's birthday. Why? Because they do not know what to do with themselves when another person is being celebrated.

What?

If you can't enjoy a moment without making it public, you are broken.

Eh, come again?

Because whoever can validate you can break you.

Hey guys, if you're watching this now, that means you have ears for intelligent conversations and this is exactly where you want to be. We have conversations that will get you at the edge of your seat, and this particular one is one you don't want to miss. I, I have a very honest request from you as we start this conversation. I'd like for you to like this broadcast. That helps us to get this to as many people as possible. You know, we can work together getting intelligent conversations to people all over the world. And I'd like you to drop your comment. Let us know how you feel. Let us know how this has impacted you. And one thing you want to do also is to subscribe to this YouTube channel, as this will notify you whenever we're bringing up videos, podcasts, or any other kind of video that can be a blessing to your heart. I look forward to having you again and again on this show. Thank you so much. So you believe that most of the contradictions that we see in the life of men today is can be traced to daddy issues?

Um, to a large extent, yes. And not just daddy issues. Most of the contradictions are to inner healing of the wounded child. So some can be daddy issues, some can be mother issues, some can be the presence of a father figure, some can be the absence —of a father figure. Not everybody that is wounded is wounded because they didn't have a present parent. Sometimes some people are wounded because the parents were too present, the parents were too doting. So the complexities exist.

So you feel that the fact that the parents were too present— yes— can become a matter too? Oh, of course. In what sense?

So if you have a child who, for example, is a child that was a Samuel, a child of promise, they waited for many years before that child was born. When that child comes, it is easy to begin to want to overly protect that child. I believe that's what one of the many fears that God wanted to deliver Abraham from. Mm-hmm. Where he's touching Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. After that, Abraham knew nothing can ever kill Isaac.

So you feel such a child can be raised like a king and he will never understand the reality of life.

So when he grows up and there is no mother or father to be at his beck and call, he can become narcissistic and think the world owes him something. So I'm saying this so that as parents, we don't parent based on what was missing in our lives. Because sometimes I don't want to say that again. You don't parent based on what was missing in your childhood. You parent based on how God prescribed childhood.

So meaning that there are times that parents can overcompensate?

I find myself doing that sometimes. Wow. Yes, because you feel that's— you want to give your child what you never had, not realizing that even some of the things that made you who you are as a parent is useful for them. That's where you find out that many wealthy people give birth to children who are unable to keep up, to continue their legacy. Yes, ethics of their parents, because they were too sheltered. So the goal is to raise your child the way God recommended children to be raised, not raise your child based on your childhood pain or childhood trauma alone, but based on that blueprint.

Wow. So when we get to present the life of our kids, we can put them— we can raise them in a way that they become delusional, they have this sense of grandiosity.

Yes, very well. You already see it in some children. If you go to— if you see the way some mothers raise some of their sons, you will know there will be a problem here. Or you see the way some fathers who grew up in hardship cannot say no to their children now, so they buy the child everything the child wants as at when the child wants it, because nobody ever did that for them.

How, how, how, how far does these things really get? In the sense that— and you're saying we can still trace many of these problems even down to the adult stage?

Oh yes, I believe— this is my personal opinion— that every adult is a child inside of him. And when an adult starts displaying, you will know the age and stage at which that child stopped growing. I've seen very successful people.

Yes, I mean very successful people. They have all the things that makes for the metrics of success. Yes. And yet they get insecure about small things, small recognition. They get triggered. Um, they, they can't handle being ignored. They can't—

they cannot handle not being seen, not being recognized, not being the center.

They can't handle not being the center of attention in any location. They can't handle not being number one. Very true. There's this— because there is a difference between success and the need to always want to be the object of attention. Very true. What do you— what do you trace that to?

I know people who can't attend other people's birthdays. Yes, I know people that have never attended another person's birthday. Why? Because they do not know what to do with themselves when another person is being celebrated.

What?

So the nature of tragedy— and that's why we have to be very careful to create environments of love and protection and safe spaces— the nature of tragedy is so that when tragedy happens to you, yes, you must cope. And when you want to cope, you cope with trauma. And the thing about trauma is when trauma happens and it becomes your coping mechanism, trauma, as at the time of tragedy, was very good. Because it is trauma that kept you alive. It is trauma that minimized the effect of tragedy. But the nature of trauma is it continues to serve you until it no longer serves you. Wow. So at some point you have to say to yourself that, thank you, trauma, for helping me cope as a child, for helping me cope as a young adult. So someone who, for example, had a speech impediment as a child. He stuttered, he stammered, and they were bullying him. To reduce that feeling of unworthiness, he will start to withdraw from the social scene, which is how to cope. Because if he keeps exposing himself to bullying, a time will come to affect him. So he now starts to withdraw. He now becomes an introvert, but he's not truly an introvert. It is the tragedy of bullying that produced the trauma of introversion. When he becomes an adult, he now starts finding himself withdrawing from people who love him. His wife will say, I don't understand. His children will be like, Daddy doesn't love us. At that point, he has to come to realize that this coping mechanism is now no longer serving me. But this is the challenge with trauma. You can use trauma to build something fantastic. So because of the product of trauma, you believe trauma is good. There are some people who can never be Still, they can never rest. The way God created for 6 days and rested on the 7th, they will create for 30 days stretch. And because they are building something that is great, they've lost the concept of Sabbath. And you can't tell them that that is a trauma response.

So you, you're saying it's not just hard work, it can be that you are hiding from something or running from something?

The coping mechanisms that develop are as varied as anything. So work can be a coping mechanism. Not all coping mechanisms are vices. Not all coping mechanisms are sins. Not all coping mechanisms will produce in the immediate term disaster. It is in the long term, because that person that keeps working and working and working and working and working, the natural progression of life is in your old age you cannot work as much. Yes. And even if you work as much, you cannot keep up with the next generation. So what will happen is that person will no longer have as many activities and then they will not know what to do with themselves. You now start hearing them say, I work so hard for you people, you people have abandoned me, you people, you only call your mother, you people don't visit me. And the man is contradicted, he's conflicted because he really worked hard for them.

So that's, that describes people who derive their identity from what they do.

That's one. And people who can't be still with themselves, they don't like themselves.

Because these things you're saying, um, particularly in ministry space— yes, sir— people can even make their trauma a doctrine that it looks like hard work, hard work. But it can actually be coming from the place of sometimes being that person that everyone around you thought you couldn't do well or succeed, and now you start succeeding. You are responding by showing them what I can do. This is who I am. And, and, and we, we sometimes mask that. What, what do you see in that?

So I use myself as an example. Yes. At some point you have to ask yourself, what point am I trying to prove, and who am I trying to prove it for? Come again. At some point you have to ask yourself, what point am I trying to prove and who am I trying to prove it?

These are deep, soulish questions.

So, sir, let me, let me say something. You know, when Jesus said in Luke 14 that, um, the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me, and he now said he has come to preach the gospel to the poor, the next thing he says is that he has come to bind up the brokenhearted. The next thing he says, he has come to preach liberty to captives, or deliverance. It's funny how we jump from preaching the gospel to deliverance. If Jesus said he came to bind up the brokenhearted, there are many people with broken hearts. Broken heart is not breakfast. Broken heart is not relationship heartbreak. A broken heart means your heart, the center, that thing which God said you should guard, for out of it are the issues of life, it is fundamentally flawed. So The soul realm, in my personal opinion, is where the bulk of the challenges exist. After salvation, before deliverance and casting out of devils, bind that broken heart, heal it. You are broken. So yes, the soul realm, how we see ourselves, where we make our decisions from.

He said, why am I doing what I I'm doing and who am I trying to prove the point to.

Oh yes, that was me. If you can't enjoy a moment without making it public, you are broken.

Eh, come again. If you can't enjoy a moment without making it public, you are broken.

Because why do you need the validation of strangers to make that moment memorable? Why? Wow. Even with your spouse, whatever it is, true intimacy. If I'm truly having fun, I will get carried away and not document.

Somebody call me with flowers.

You always want to curate everything. Now I'm not saying here and there, because as human beings we build memories. But if you can't remember the last time there was a fantastic moment and you were like, I need to share this— now I didn't say record. You are recording to share so strangers can validate. Not recording to keep the memory.

No, no, no.

If recording with intention to share, to you get validation from somebody else's opinion of your sacred moment, you are broken. Because whoever can validate you can break you.

Hmm. I have seen some of the most private couples lead some of the most healthy marriages.

And you will never see it online. And that's because they are contented with each other. They don't even want you in their bubble. You are an intruder. They don't want you to give your opinion on their sacred moment. It doesn't matter to them.

And some judge them as maybe they don't love each other.

So I think we really need to start reevaluating what we call love, because now we live in an attention seeker environment, an attention economy. So I am— I used to suffer from this, so I know Wow. Oh yes, as I started to gradually heal, it is hard again. So if you come from a broken family, if you come from a broken background and you feel that you're doing better than maybe your father, you want the world to see. Hmm. Because your shame was visible when you were growing up and your father and mother used to fight. Your father used to beat your mom and the neighbors used to be aware. Your shame was public. Wow. So your recovery, you also want it to be public. That's why you see some people in their secondary school WhatsApp groups, you see them just flaunting because they were the poor kid in secondary school. Now that they've made it, they want everybody to know that that poor kid is no longer that poor kid. Hmm.

Why do you need to prove a point? And these are things that happens. Almost every day. You're right, almost everywhere you turn. Yes, someone just want to prove something. You know, one time I recorded a video in London. Yes, sir. Where I said that the proof of God's love for you is not the fact that you will always be number one. Oh yes. You can be somewhere in between and yet you are doing well. So the indices of a broken man sometimes does not even look like the person is broken. You can be celebrating the person's trauma and not know that.

See this table that is shaky? I have had to do deep introspection. I'm still on it, and sometimes it is pain that makes you pay attention, which is why people must learn, hmm, not to embrace their pain, but to sit in their pain.

People must learn not to embrace their pain, not to internalize it, but to sit in it, to sit and process it.

Do not be in a hurry to push pain away. Pain is how God gets you to pay attention. There are so many things that God wants to use to catch our attention. He doesn't want to use pain, but sometimes pain is the last alternative. So when pain comes, don't be in such a hurry to come out of it. Lord, get me out! Ask yourself, what is God drawing my attention to? So when you are always trying to run away from pain, run away— I mean, look at Hebrews 11. If you look at the fathers of faith, the elders, they are two contrasting individuals. Yeah, Bible talks about those who had their dead come back to life. Amen. Talks about those who subdued kingdoms. That's, that's what we want. But the Bible talks about those who are destitute and in caves. It talks about those who were sawn in half, that the world was not worthy of, worthy of And it calls both elders. So that means what makes me solid, it's not what I am doing or what I— there is faith to receive, there is faith to endure, there is faith to reject. Yeah. Sometimes I show you my faith by the things I had to give up, not by the things my faith produced. So I can literally show you Do you know I was supposed to be a governor? Wow. But now today I'm a missionary to one village. That is the proof of my faith. What I turned down, not what I got.

By all means, we only focus on faith to receive. This issue of success by all means, um, and also the need to Just show people what we are doing. How bad is it?

So technology has compelled certain realities, capturing moments. But again, why do I need the validation of another to feel good? Especially when that other is not your core. Like Jesus had his three— yeah, he had the 12, he had the 70. Why is it the multitude that validates you? That's my own question. So it is a real problem because if I keep measuring my life by your perception of me— so for example, most people now cannot start a church if they don't have the means of capturing and displaying what God is doing in their church. Like, I just noticed now that there are many people who, when God calls them, they wait for certain things to be in place before they go. I don't have a problem with that, but when you look at the fact that the early church was a house fellowship home cell type of church. That means that if you truly want to touch lives, you can just go out and touch lives.

You can start from where you are.

And we are fast losing that culture.

Wow. You know, another thing that— now this, this gives me lots of concern. Yes, sir. Is that we are fast losing the reality of ourselves. To talk to a person and you can touch their humanity. Not drama, not the impression they are trying to give, not performance, not effort. That this is a conversation we are having, and I know I have met with a real human being. I don't care how anointed you are. Not, oh my God, Apostle Femi Lazarus, oh my God, you know, I watch you, you know. Not drama.

And I don't even mind that because that is a reality of human existence. When Paul showed up, they called him and Barnabas Zeus and Hermes, which is true, because if you— if it walks like God, if it talks like God, if it does what God does, then it is God. The issue is Paul's response. Paul said, please, please, please, please, please don't do this. I am a man like you. My problem is not that you are being celebrated. My problem is that you are believing the hype. You, the person they are celebrating, you are drinking the Kool-Aid. So when they are now celebrating you, I'm expecting— I'm looking at you to say, no, no, I'm a man like you. But I see you basking in it, and I'm like, this is why when you have moral failure, because they have made you God, and God does not fail, you must lie. You must have a hit squad. You must have a— you must have a PR team. You must have a cleanup gang. You built that cage and put yourself inside. But if I show you my humanity and I later on do something that shows that I am human, people be like, yeah, what's the big deal? He's a man just like me. A man God uses in spite of himself.

Now this is a conversation out of the box. Yes, sir. And, um, I can tell you for free There was a particular night I couldn't sleep. Yes, sir. I needed to talk to somebody, not a performer. I needed to talk to a man of God whose humanity I can feel. Yes. Because I believe that one of the reasons, and it was just me, I was in a transition in that season. And I just, I needed to learn. I hate, and till now, till tomorrow, I hate the tradition of ministry where the minister is a demigod. I want to, I don't want to lose my humanity. It's my most important asset. Definitely. I know. Thank God for the gift of God's Spirit. It didn't come from heaven to turn me into an angel, and I'm just walking, I say, "Hey, Apostle Femi, hey, bless you, bless you, thank you." I don't like that. And I feel because we have a world where people feel safe in that cocoon, many are having moral failures and they have no relationship they have nobody in their life, man to man or men to men, that they can sit down, talk these things through, trash it out, and say, you know, I've been going through this, you know, I just find myself having these feelings. And say, hey, all you, ah, you know, stuff like that. Yes, yes. And these are things that I think is destroying our world.

So I, many years ago, maybe like 5, 6 years ago, 7, 8 years ago, I realized that I was holding myself and other people up to a standard that God wasn't necessarily holding them up to. And this is what I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not a grace licentious, no, but God has capacity for the entire human experience. Hmm. God has capacity for the entire human experience. There is nothing you are going to do that will surprise God. It can shock men, it can disappoint men, it will never shock God. Wow. The second thing is Jesus came and experienced the entire human experience. He was tempted in every way, in every way. So if that is the reality, why am I living my life in a way that makes it impossible for people to see my humanity? Because this is what we say: if they see our humanity, they won't respect us. Why do you need the respect of others to thrive? Hmm. The fact that I can call on God Almighty and he answers me is enough boost to my morale. If I have the direct line of the President of the US and maybe say Elon Musk, why will I care if somebody down the road doesn't love me? It's either we don't believe God is really great or we don't feel connected to God. Wow. Because if I have direct access to God, why should I— why will I feel bad about how you feel about me? Yeah. So this is what we should aspire towards. Why is the respect, the validation, the honor of a person so important to you?

What about people who need to go somewhere and can't go because they don't want to go with the car they have? They'll look down on them if you come with a Camry and you need to get an SUV.

So these things happen to me even till now. Hmm. But this is what I see. If you have a problem, take it before God and say, Lord, I have a self-esteem problem. Don't use men to solve your self-esteem problem. Don't make men honor you out of a self-esteem problem. And the reason I say this is because you are loved regardless. How come you don't know you are loved regardless? Then secondly, and I say this because some people hide behind, um, if they treat me badly, I won't be able to bless them. And that is true, that is true, because if you dishonor me or you make me feel some type of way, I'm not going to feel happy to bless you. But that is not a reality you should settle with because Scripture says love covers a multitude of sin.

It might be a reality, but it is not what anybody should settle with.

Yes, it is the truth, but I should get— I look at the, the father of the prodigal son. Like, every time I think about that story, it humbles me. I always say it. Number one, the prodigal son went away with half of his father's net worth. Yeah, he did. Half of his father's lifetime work, and the father knew he was going to squander it. Yes. Because the father was watching afar off for the day he will return. Yes. Meaning, number one, that if you truly love people, they will waste your resources, but you need them to know that I love you more than my resources. If it takes me losing half of my net worth to show you that I love you, son, is worth it. Let the net worth go so you will come back and say, truly my father loves me in spite of what I have done. So there is the narrative that they have to honor you for you to love them. There's also the narrative that you can become the kind of man whose heart is so enlarged that no matter what is done to you, you have capacity to forgive.

What is the— what is a healthy esteem like?

I personally believe that self-esteem comes from a place of righteousness.

I fight this battle every day. Now let's, let's talk about this in respect to those who probably don't understand the concept of those stuffs, righteousness and all the likes.

So let me put it this way. My self-esteem comes from the fact that I know I was sent on Earth to achieve a task on Earth, and I am loved, and the God who created me and sent me knows that I am loved. So my self-esteem is primarily tied to the fact that I am human and I am here, and I can become anything I want to be with time and with diligence. That's the first thing. So your self-esteem is first internal. Nobody can disrespect me except I feel like I am already disrespected. If I am full of love, you cannot make me feel any less than I already am. That's the first. The second thing is you should have a core group that supplies something to you.

A core group?

A core group. You should have your core? Yes. Like, if you look at someone like, um, say Job, for example, he had his friends, 4 friends in the Bible. So they were his solid guys.

Unfortunately, many people only have friends who are either— they are envying themselves, fighting themselves internally.

Then why call them friends?

They just deceive themselves. Why call them friends? Some people just like the idea of having somebody who is big and successful as a friend, even when you know that this person is not a friend. And he will not be there for you in the day of trouble.

See, like, I, I can never get over the fact that Job's friends— and I see that in scripture— at a point I had to start auditing my life and start saying, you've built this thing wrongly, start building it right. Yeah. You have placed such an emphasis— and that's what poverty does to you, it makes you feel like, I must succeed, I must prove a point, at what cost? So you've placed such an emphasis on success that you can't realize that Beyond material success, there's relational success. And I want to be me around— we can't act all day. I can't go out there and put on a facade to make money, put on a facade to— and I'm not saying deceiving people, but I need to man up. Then you now come into your safe space and you are still acting there. You have— you need to have your circle. So when they showed up for Job, they're like, oh, Job is sackcloth and ashes. They removed their robes and wore sackcloth and ashes. That thing humbled me. Yeah, because if I see my friend in sackcloth and ashes, I will tell him to take a bath and he should dress up and come up to my level. So true friendship is a person who can be with you in your wins and value you, and be with you in your struggles and your challenges and value you. I didn't know this early, and that's why you feel exhausted, because you have to keep pedaling, you have to keep performing. Some do it with their friends, some do it with their wives. They are pedaling in front of their wives. Really? Oh yes. Oh yes.

Like giving a show or what?

So if you've told yourself, I need to be a man, I need to provide, I need to— so you have tied your self-worth to the ability to bring it to the table. You, you, you don't know how to be loved for just being you. I use myself as an example. There was a particular person who was getting close to me, an elderly man, and the man just loved me. And every time he shows me kindness, I go and meet my wife, I say, why does this man just love me? And my wife used to say to me that, do you realize you can be loved for just being yourself? Wow. Like, I was— she was like, do you realize you don't need to have a reason to be loved?

Like, there's nothing you have to keep going, doing on, and just you.

I, I felt for— I felt for her because she has had to live with a person who believes that he must keep performing to be loved. And I had to start on learning that. And that's maybe from childhood. You bring your report home, when you come first you are loved, when you fail you are not loved. So you, you start to see love is performance-based love.

And, and, and, and you know, this happens to people who, when they have new relationships— not, not about just romantic relationships, even normal relationship.

They sustain it through spending. They're buying love.

They keep, they keep, they feel they have to give money. You have to, because they don't feel deep down. That's not kindness. It looks like kindness, but deep down it's, it's the person feeling, if I don't give something here, what else would they, what else do they like me for? That's the fellow feeling unworthy. Of being loved for who he or she is and feeling that you have to keep bringing something to the table. And we can even go beyond that and look at the female gender. And if care is not taken, in, in some cases, performance-based love can be submitting sex or other vices to get love.

Anything. That breaks you, anything that diminishes you, that you have to do, yeah, to get love, don't call that thing love.

Wow.

If you're doing anything that is diminishing your self-worth, if you're doing anything— I'm not talking of sacrifice. There is a place of sacrifice where you are doing it and you know this is a sacrifice, it's not convenient. Anything you're doing to be loved is not love. And it's sad that many people have not yet settled to experience the love that comes from a family system, or the love that comes from unconditional acceptance. So yes, any woman that feels like she has to do something or give something or be something to be loved is not being loved. She's being used. It's transactional. Yeah, it's transactional. And this is why we must preserve the family unit, because that's where you first experience love. What does a baby do to be loved? Why does a baby cry and demand breast milk and demand his diapers to be changed? Because a baby fundamentally knows, yeah, that I'm a human being. Yeah, since I am here, yeah, I deserve love. If people have this mindset, and then as a mother you show up and you are showing love to your child, and you are breastfeeding the child, and you are connecting with the child— that child is like a part of you, and you carry that notion throughout— that child will know that I don't have to do anything to be loved. And then that's where fathers now come in, because as a father now you have to intentionally build that connection with your child. A mother's connection is automatic, is biological. Yeah, but the father, there's nothing the child wants from you. So the father becomes the first example of what love looks like. Looks like the mother's love is biological, is automatic. That's why a father should never try to fight with his kids for the love of his mother. The best way for your for your kids to love you is love their mother. If you love their mother, they will love you. Exactly. But the father becomes the first example to a child of what unconditional love—

and what if the father is broken?

This is why conversations like this are necessary. This is why I started doing Becoming Better Men, because the power that men have scares me. The power that I have as a man is scary. Wow. Oh yes. I give an example, sir. If I want to be irresponsible, I can give birth to 100 children this year. True. I can father 100 children. Someone can look and say that's not true. It's true, it's true. It happens in breeding. They have a bull calf, a bull, a bull that they release, this healthy breed, they release into a field and it will impregnate all the female cows there. But a woman can never have more than 1, 2, highest 3 children in a year.

She can't even— okay, if it's triplets, yes.

But I'm trying to say that just look at our capacity to multiply. Yeah. And reproduce ourselves. Yeah. The person who can do that has to ask himself, what am I going to do with all this power? Wow, this capacity that I have. So conversations like this, for me, they are so powerful because men, it is made or it makes or breaks with us. The buck stops at our door. Again, when I was like searching through scripture and going to, I just realized that women got away with a lot of things, but men They were not allowed to. When Eve ate the apple, their eyes were still closed. When Adam ate it, their eyes were open. Yeah, leadership. When Sarah was arguing with God, you laughed, I didn't laugh, you laughed, I didn't laugh. God let it go. Job's friends, God said they spoke nonsense against him. Yeah, Job's wife that said, 'Curse God and die,' God did as if he didn't hear that conversation. So you just start to realize that, in fact, at a point I told myself that If this is how this being a man is, I maybe— as a side joke now, maybe that's why some people that can't bear the responsibility are opting to— so it's hard. So we have to, we have to show up. We have to show up.

So if a broken man marries a woman, ah, he can't love her the way she should be loved. And the children becomes defective.

If, if, if a broken man marries a woman, the first question is, where were the men in the woman's life that they allowed a broken man to marry their daughter or their sister?

Most broken men go for vulnerable women. Yes, that they think there's no one in their life to show them what a real man looks like. And they come to dangle flowers in front of them, but they have chains behind. And when the flower fits, they bind them with the chains.

So, sir, at this point, let me— there are men who are broken and are aware they are predators. There are men who are broken and are unaware. Unaware, yeah. And this happens a lot, especially in like ministry circles, because the nature of the gospel is that it shows you like this great side of yourself. It doesn't mean you are there yet. So you sit and you look and say, why am I getting married? Why am I getting married to this woman? Why am I getting married now? I personally believe nobody, no man should get married without asking these 3 questions. Why marriage? Why her? Why now? And this is talking to the man who is broken that doesn't know he is broken, because many men are broken and they don't even know that they are broken.

Someone said—

yes, sir—

some men settle for good girls and spend their married— their life as married people pursuing bad girls. That's a conversation.

So if, if I'm to speak about that, how you choose a spouse, for me, can we say many people choose a spouse lying to themselves?

Yes, they need that, that grandiosity to be king over someone that you feel you can trample on. Yeah, but you are not emotionally connected to. Yes, but you can possess this person, but now you are not enjoying the whole stuff, and now you want to prey on someone else. These are things that are happening.

So yes, again, I will always say there are two classes of men that are broken: those who know they are broken and are going around bleeding, hurting other people. Then there are those who are totally unaware that they are broken, and it, it happens. Again, I use a reference of someone like David. Yeah, David walked into Bathsheba and Uriah's marriage. Yeah, killed an innocent man, took his wife, and had no idea he had done anything wrong. He didn't even feel it. It, it took another person to say, guy, in fact, when they told him the story of— he was like, he wasn't pretending, he judged Then when they now say that man is you, it was at that moment that David— so I know, so exact— some years ago I used to think everybody that is bleeding on somebody is deliberately doing it. It was at that moment that David was like, come on, this thing I've done is wrong. And I can understand why he would do something like that. There is a way you grow up in hardship that you believe life is hard, and because you survived hardship You believe everybody should survive hardship. So you're not even aware. Have you seen some of these fathers that will say, at my age, I walked how many kilometers to go to school? That's wrong, sir. I, I—

did you hear that when you were growing up?

I didn't hear that, but I found myself looking at my son and telling my son that you don't know how easy your life is. And I'm like, you're not doing anything special. That it wasn't done to you does not mean it is special. And that's— that's— some men have that challenge. Wow. You are bringing barest minimum to the table, but because you never had barest minimum, barest minimum looks like a big deal. So when you hear a man say, I pay your school fees, calm down before you say that man is what is there. If that man paid his way through school It's a big deal to him. And then you go and marry a girl whose father used to pay school fees. So the man is trying to say, can't you see how I'm such a better version of my predecessors? And the woman is saying, why are you celebrating the barest minimum? They are going to keep having issues. So it's not everybody that is, is having issues because this guy was intentionally predatory. There are some people that we need to bring them into that conversation where they say, come on, I'm broken, and I had no idea, because being broken was the norm. Hmm. Being broken. And those are the men we speak to. Those are the men that we try to talk to. The ones who are predators and are just going about will come to them if we have enough men who are aware of where they are broken and are actively healing, they will protect.

More like, we need, we need this, we need this forum gathering where men can be men. Not pastors, not apostles, not prophets. A gathering where men—

I used to say we need typical men talking to typical men. We had, we just concluded, like I said, away on Saturday at Transcorp Hilton, we had Becoming Better Men. We had over close to about 180 men who were there from 9 AM in the morning.

That's a big deal.

Till 7 PM in the evening.

That's it.

No man stood up from that. Okay, well, some had to leave at a point, but they all were sitting listening. And why I say typical men listening to typical men, let me give you a good example, sir. And I'm not shading anybody. I don't have the time to do that. If you are a man that travels from location to location and everywhere you go they are welcoming you with flowers. Yes. And fanfare. Yes. You can't talk to me about self-esteem. You serious? If you're a man that every Sunday you show up and people are celebrating you and hailing you, you can't tell me about self-esteem. Why is that? Because to a large extent, your cup is being filled on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Your cup is being filled. So if someone says to you Silly man. You know you are not silly. But a person who is working as a cashier in a bank, a man who has lost ₦300,000 because he didn't count it well, that man is going to be really broken. So when he gets home and his wife says, unit has finished, didn't you plan? So we as leaders have to find a way The way Christ brought himself low. That's why when, when a leader is always trying to honor, create structures, a time will come you will lose touch with your people. You need to create structures of remembrance. There was a day, and I say this without trying to, because today somebody sent me recharge card, you know, the numbers, like 20, to just say thank you. And he sent the numbers, and when I saw those numbers, I just said, who is going to load Yeah, who is going to load all of this? And I was now like, ah, you've come a long way. I remember when I used to load those things one by one. I think I just copied those things, I just sent them out, or did— I don't know what I did with it. But if that person finds out, he'll feel bad because he painstakingly typed those things. But I'm not at that level anymore, which is why leaders must delegate to sub-leaders who can be touched with the infirmities of the people that they lead. Yeah. And leaders must keep reminding themselves every now and then. Go to somewhere where you are not known and sit at the back. Yeah. And remind yourself of how life used to be when you were at the back. So that way, typical men can discuss typical male experiences with typical men. I may be wrong, but this has been my contemplation.

And, you know, that thing about sitting at the back, about someone who is used to the flash, to the, you know, now being in a space where they're not known. You're not known. And you're only a champion to those who know you.

I remember the day I was with someone and they called him by his name, and I could see the surprise on his face. I could see the shock. It's been ages since someone called him by his name. Wow. That is a problem.

You should have people in your life who can do that.

You should have people in your life that can call you by your name. You should have people in your life that can call you by your nickname, not privately, publicly. Hmm, publicly. To remind the people around you that you are human, that you are human. Because, and I say this, when you display your humanity, which you eventually will, that's when we now start trying to craft theology to justify a clear display of humanity because people are not used to seeing that person as human. Why? Why are you trying to deny your humanity?

Wow. I think there's a part of this, I don't know, for me, that traveling helped with. Okay, sir. In the sense that in traveling different nations, one of the first things I sat down to tell myself is Hold on a minute. God is not a Nigerian. True. The Nigerian version of him that we know is not all there is. Very true. You go to America and you see people worshiping God and they are happy.

They—

I'm not saying we are not happy here.

They are free, they are real, they are free, you know.

Um, in fact, I, I remember one time I was in Canada, someone— I didn't even notice— and one of the children that came to receive me at the airport with flowers was trying to whisper something to my ears. So he just threw my head. I was— I mean, I'm cool. So when I said, as he pulled Apostle's hair, and I, I looked at the picture again, I laughed, and I said to myself, a kid in Nigeria would not have done that. So you see how we institutionalize trauma at a young age. So yes, he probably will be too scared to even touch the Apostle, and the one there, what's there Then you're now telling him that God is his friend, whereas the representative of God, he cannot touch him.

He's not his friend. So how? Like, you're confusing them. Choose a side. Is God near to all who call upon him, or is God far away in heaven with angels protocoling him? And this is why, as effective as our gospel is, we can do more in terms of making it effective Monday to Saturday, not just Sunday, not just Sunday. It works perfectly on Sunday, but it seems to be limited on Mondays.

We just keep diluting what we get on Sundays throughout the week because our gospel should look more like Monday to Saturday. You know, you know, this thing you're saying, I have a pastor, we're going to honor him soon. Yes, sir. He's my own example of what a pastor is. If you see me in church, you say, ah, kids come around and all. And not because, but it, that happens because of the fellow I had in my life as an example of who a pastor is. Now, my pastor personally took about 17 of us in church. Yes, sir. And personally discipled us. He personally taught us to read the Bible cover to cover. I was a teenager when I went to meet my pastor in church to tell him that there's a girl I like. I didn't, I didn't see it as awkward. I didn't tell my dad. My dad, my dad is very free, he listens. But I told the pastor. Yeah, I didn't feel he's going to judge me, he's going to bully me, he's going— no, I went to him and I said, because he's been the one discipling us, so, and I felt, well, he should trust me. And I went to meet him and I said, I like so-and-so. And so he said, oh, I mentioned her name, she was also in discipleship class. He looked at me And he said something that changed my life. Oh wow. He said, you're a responsible man. No one had ever said that to me. I was probably just 18. He looked at me, he said, you are reasonable. He said, I think you will do well, just be accountable. He said, I say, yeah, I said, I know her, said she's my girl, said Go on. And he prayed with me. The sense of the relationship being under accountability of a pastor who trusts us— very true— gave me a sense of belonging. That what? Now eventually, of course, the relationship didn't work out. And when I went to tell him, he just smiled and he said, you know, things like this happen and all that. But the truth is that if he had told me not to go, then I would have still gone. So it gives me— because I think one of the problems we're having, why people live in their high mansions, is that they are afraid. They are afraid of being too simple. Not having bodyguard, pushing people away. Excuse us, Pastor is coming. Because they know that the people don't value the one who is simple. And there is an addiction that people have to towards abuse. So if a person is going to tow the path of simplicity, which is where you see real masculinity, real men, can be touched. Christ could be touched. He could be touched by the woman at the well. He could be touched by Mary Magdalene. He could be touched by Peter. He could be touched by Judas. He could be touched by them. That they could sit down, eat together. You couldn't tell which of them is the Christ because there was no Facebook or Instagram in those days. So people are afraid of taking that long route, of not being valued as it were compared to the one who has So I think, and I agree with you, I think that if we go back to—

if we're serious about real change, if we're serious about real cultural change, if we want Christ not just in our hearts as individual individuals, but we want Christ in our society through institutions, then we have to go back to studying the culture that was prescribed for humanity. So when I say culture, I'm saying like the first 5 books of the Bible, when God was about to bring them into the promised land, there was a template of a culture. And what I mean by that is the value system that we will uphold. Because for some people, the problem is— it's not— the problem is not in, oh, drop your protocol, oh, don't have a mansion, oh, don't make yourself larger than life. The real challenge is How do I do life? Because there are people who are simple who are also broken. True, true. I wouldn't see— I don't see you as someone who— this is— you're a very accessible person. That I've, I've seen that, I've known that. I would like to think I'm a very accessible person, but I'm also broken. So our brokenness shows up in different places. That one is very valid because they are seen and they are modeling something to many people and they are replicating it. So we have to really say, please model the right thing. But it's not all about simplicity, it's about the culture. And so for me, as a man, when I wake up every day, ever since I started this journey of self-awareness, I said, okay, come on, Jesus came to bind the brokenhearted. How broken is your heart? All right. I started seeing the places where my heart was broken. Then I said, what is responsible for this? So every man, as I've come to see is operating from a place of pain, their past. We all have a measure of pain. That's how we need to forgive and let people go. Your father, your mother, whoever. And men who are operating from pain, they are very hard to live with. I used to be that. I'm working on it. Have you ever seen like when your pet dog, your own dog that knows you, maybe a bone is stuck in its mouth, or a, a shard of wood is, or glass is stuck in his paw, that dog will behave as if he doesn't know you. If you're not careful, he will bite you. Yes. Pain makes you forget the people you love and see them as enemies. So your wife says to you, why did you do this yesterday? As she says it, boom, you just remember your father saying, why did you? And then you respond to her the way you would have responded, which is why you healed from pain. Some men have been able to resolve their pain. They're now living from a place of pressure. Their current responsibility. So it's not about the past. They're like, do you know what I'm carrying? The question I used to ask is, who asked you to carry it? Like, when I started gradually improving my finances, I started realizing that nothing is ever enough. True. That phone, that house, that— so you're putting yourself under pressure. This is why brotherhood is necessary. Wow. And so pressure— so I don't have to have it. If my brother has it, I can experience it. So once I go to my brother, I say, oh, I've always wanted to drive a G-Wagon. You have a G-Wagon? That's where brotherhood comes in. Brotherhood is to help disperse the pressure. Yeah, because women can't take pressure. No, no, women were not built for pressure. Wow. Some men start putting pressure on their wives and say, this woman is stressing me, she doesn't understand what I— she wasn't built for that. It's your fellow brothers that understand you. A woman can never understand a man fully. Wow, that's, that's powerful.

There's something I want us to look into. These injuries of the soul, the mind, and sexual vices. Um, it's a matter and it needs to be talked about. The fact that many addictions are coming from the place that this person is not healed. True. Can we look into that?

So I'm glad you're talking about this. And why I say I'm glad is because this is a subject the church has largely avoided or oversimplified. So it's just termed under lust, or it's termed under fornication, or it's termed under masturbation, or it's termed under adultery or pornography. Anytime we say we want to discuss the issue of sexuality, this These are the 4 things, but those are, those are symptoms. They're not the root. The underlying root is a man who is living in pain, a man who is under pressure will seek pleasure. A man who is in pains, a man who is under pressure was seek pleasure to numb, to distract, to get away from the pain, no matter how little it is.

So that can be an escape into not just sexual but other forms of—

some people choose chemical abuse, some people choose even food, work, some people choose food. So the question now is, why are you— what are you running from? That you're seeking validation from the arms of a woman. Because typically, if you are not running, you would be contented with what you have. So I'm speaking out to like married men who literally have a partner they can be with. And then for the person who is unmarried, we will now start asking, what is your What is the purpose of sex? So for example, sir, I've come to see there is sex for connection, which is how God designed it to be. Sex for connection, where my spirit loves you, my— I love your mind, I love the way you think, I love the way you arrange your life. And then the body now says, what's up, everybody's, everybody's connected here, me too, I want to connect. Yeah, so that is normal. And what sex for connection does is you can't have a connection with everybody. So if we train men to seek sex for connection and see sex as a connection tool, once I've connected to you, I won't really want to connect with another person. Yeah. So I'm not teaching you discipline from you will go to hell, you will catch an STD, you will get a girl pregnant. I'm teaching you discipline from this person you're having sex with. Do you want to be connected to the person? The person now looks at the person's lifestyle and say, nah, I don't want to be connected to this person. And so they exercise restraint to please God, but also to make sure they connect only to the right person. Yeah, there's sex for validation. That's where it gets dicey. Validation— you are not good enough. Hmm. You feel— this is what usually happens to married men. Hmm. So your wife is not making you feel like a big deal, and then one small girl somewhere who is not who is not carrying the full weight of your wife. She's not cooking for you, she's not taking care of your children. The girl can literally prepare herself because that's all she does. Then you now go and she makes you feel like a king, and then you now come back to your wife who you feel doesn't make you feel like a king. There's a root cause there. Wow. Why are you not getting your validation first from your relationship with your creator, your friends, your spouse. Why is it strangers— and I'm not saying stranger like she's a stranger because you hide from her, you are showing her the only the good sides of yourself. Yeah, you don't shout on her. Yes, when you call her, I say my baby, how are you? But you can't say that to your wife. I'm saying that, so you are performing, you're an actor. So she's not even seeing the real you. The person who is seeing the real you is the person that can love you in spite of yourself. Wow. So we now have to start asking then why are you seeking for validation? Then there's sex for exploration, where like when you buy a BMW or a performance vehicle, a Ferrari, you just want to say, okay, how far can this, can this car go? It's not really that. So there is the validation where if I show up in a public space with a Ferrari, everybody be like, oh my God, that's validation. Exploration is I actually took it to the highway and I'm like, how far can this thing go? There are people like that who are wired, they are sensory, they are tactile, to see just how far this thing can go. As long as it is within the confines of scripture and you are not, you're not breaking any clear-cut command of God, you are not doing anything that is medically unsafe or unsanitary. Yes. I am not breaking the laws of your land. Feel free, whatever you do between you and your spouse. When old age comes, you calm down by yourself. Nobody will tell you about those who want to explore other people and all those stuff. That is also because they were not taught that sex is for connection. This is a huge problem that many have had to deal with. Funny enough, you can be a virgin and having invested in pornography, you now realize you forget that because pornography makes you think sex is not for connection. Yeah, it makes you think sex is for exploration, for exploitation, is a sport. Exactly. So we have to rewire men back. If a man starts to see that the purpose of sex is connection, the list of women he will sleep with automatically will drop. Wow. I'm not saying he will completely be faithful, but he will start getting to that place. That has a lot to do with upbringing and what was modeled. And what was modeled. Because sexual connection is the end result of other kinds of connection.

So if the case whereby the man grew up seeing someone who was doing for exploitation— exploration, sorry— and all that. Nothing has been modeled to show that a woman can be enough. Yes, there's a vacuum there. And when he gets certain point in life, under certain pressure, he believes that's the reason why men does this.

And if a man— if a child, a boy, was not raised to be connected to anyone— so it's not just that, oh, I had a promiscuous father, so I'm promiscuous. No, there are people who didn't grow up with a the promiscuous father. But they remember, the purpose is connection. Yes. So they never felt connected, so they don't have a sense of loyalty. So we have to teach people how to connect. We have to teach people how to— how deep can call on too deep, as it were, naked and unashamed. This is my person. Again, that's what we're talking about.

You know, two people can marry as virgins. Yes.

You can commit adultery even if you never committed fornication. Yes. I think this is something people don't realize. Yes. You can commit adultery even if you never committed fornication.

In fact, if care is not taken, from my place as one who counsels often, that is the very—

the propensity is very high. Because many people think God will reward sexual purity with sexual competence and satisfaction. Many people just think that the reward for sexual purity is sexual satisfaction. God never said that. We keep ourselves pure because number one, it honors God. Number two, it teaches us covenant. I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say.

It's even good for us. And so not to be, you know, because, because these are, these are issues. There are people who have been intimate with their spouses But they need to put another person's image in their subconscious to be able to respond to their spouses. These are issues. They, they, they, and this, this needs to be discussed because I once asked that if we say these are Christian homes or these are families generally, now there's halftime and it's doctrinal. Just an example. Now everyone can go separate ways, you don't have to come back.

How many couples will come back? Sir, as someone who personally was very intentional about his life— yes, I have come to see that there are so many things that we do not talk about that do not prepare people for the future. Wow. You have to sit down again— culture— and teach people the purpose of sex. It can't just be, don't have sex until you're married. It can't just be, stick with one partner. It is to say, this is the purpose of sex. Yes. If you get it right, this is what it's supposed to do. So what is sex supposed to do? For example, for a woman, if a woman doesn't feel emotionally safe with you, she will never desire you. Yeah. Is one of the reasons why— and again, I'm not throwing stones— is one of the reasons why you hear of so much church hurt, moral failure of pastors. Yeah, it's because the church has come to be the safest space. Yes, for the average woman, especially in our part of the world. And so when they come in, they come in trusting, they feel safe. So what they will not take from another outsider, their boss in their office. They will find that stamina to refuse. They won't find the stamina in the house of God because they feel safe. The job of every husband— I wish I had been told this— is to create a garden environment for his wife where she feels free enough to thrive. She can be naked and unashamed. I always say this, and it's a template I started to look at. When they were— when, again, looking at scripture, when Adam and Eve messed up, the first thing we see that God asked is, Adam, where are you? Curiosity. I was never taught that the response to conflict is curiosity. The first response to conflict If you love that person is curiosity. So my son breaks my phone. The first question should be, oh wow, interesting, my phone is broken. What were you trying to do? Were you trying to fix it? Were you trying to— and then he now looks and says, I was, I was so afraid. I thought you, you, you beat me. I say, beat you? What were you trying to do? He just say, so Daddy, I saw this video and the person was opening the phone and it was this, this, this, this, this. I've lost the phone, but I've gained the connection. Wow, I've lost a phone but I've gained a connection. So my son literally tells me, so Daddy, that was when I tried to open the phone and I broke it. Bam! I now know that my son is Dora the Explorer. Wow, he's Bob the Fixer. Wow, because the phone is broken anyways. If I shout on him, will it unbreak the phone? Nobody taught me this. My wife had to start telling me that this is what you do. So the first response to conflict from a loved one is curiosity. You are so secure in yourself, they say, go and do what you want to do. I have bandwidth for everything you want to do. Any woman who can be herself around her husband will desire the husband. Wow. Is that not what sugar daddies do for their sugar babies? The girl will literally be displaying childishness and playfulness, and the man will just be laughing. Oh, you, you. But when his wife does the same thing, I have warned you, they are both female. Why you— why do you think this one is opening up? But men have to be taught to have capacity, to have largeness of heart.

Yeah, so we need more people handling men.

Now this is the challenge. When I started working with men, number one, I didn't want to, like, because even me, I need help. Like, I think that's the thing, the feeling is mutual. I'm like, I'm not qualified. I'm like, I also have problems. Can somebody come and help us? But I started discovering that let's get the conversation started. Yeah, that's why I'm so grateful that you had me on. Wow, let's get the— at least let's bring the matter on the table first. Diagnosis— we may not have treatment, but as I know from scripture, if you have divine conversations, a divine solution will show up. On the road to Emmaus, yeah, the right conversations bring divine— yeah, divine. So let's have these conversations, and that's where Becoming Better Men was. But I do not— till tomorrow when, when I finish the event As I went back home, I was like, people say you blessed my life. I was like, God, I beg. You know that video they say, what do you have to say? I don't have to say. All I have to say is, God, I beg. We need to have more of these conversations. Wow, wow.

Before I let you go, yes, sir, this— I mean, this, this, this has triggered lots of things already. Yes, sir. There's a lot to unpack from this, and, um, Um, can you describe what the total man looks like?

Ah, I can. I can, because this is who I want to be. A day must come in my life before I leave this earth that I must be that man. Wow. Oh, a day must come, because what then was the purpose of my human experience? Wow. A solid man, the kind of man is a man who has walked from his place of pain. He knows his past pain, he has dealt with it. He's managing his current pressure. He knows the things that are weighing him down, and he has a system for managing it without bleeding on the people that he leads and loves. A man who understands the place of pleasure, not for validation, not for denial or escape, but as a reward for effort. Sabbath, recreation. I have worked. 'Now I want to rest.' This is the divine order. I'm not running from anything. Yes, I have built. Now I'm resting so I can refresh and rebuild. Yes. A man who is now pursuing potential— it can be, so why not? I can be a better version of myself, so why not? And then a man who has moved even from potential, he's now in purpose. How is my life benefiting other people? In my absence, what will be missed? At my gravesite, who will cry? Because that's all that matters. You're not taking anything away. On my funeral, when I am being buried, I want people to be crying. Wow. They're not crying because Daddy's gone and they're going to be broke. They're crying because when this man walked into our space, we felt wholesome. Wow. We felt whole. We felt healed. This man had capacity for everything that could be done. I literally want to be like the prodigal father, the father of the prodigal son. Like, whatever you do, I have capacity. Squander half of my net worth, I have capacity. Wow. Then prophecy. So I'm not just working from potential and purpose, I'm now working from prophecy. This is what I was born to do. And then at this place, I'm at a place of peace. I'm at rest. You can't move me, you can't faze me. Wow. And then I show up every day. How do I show up? I show up first as a priest, a covering for the people that have come from me, because that's what I was so supposed to do, to cover them. My capacity is so enlarged, I can cover them, I can protect them. Wow. Then I can also function from a place of being a pioneer, an initiator, going where nobody else wants to go. I'm the first to go, I take the heat, I make the move. And whoever, whichever child or person around me wants to pioneer, I say, I've got you. They come back and they flop, I say, don't worry, we go again. Exactly. Then I can also show up as a shepherd. A pastor to nurture. I can show up as a— I say, I say, lastly, finally, I just use the phrase Prince of Peace. Wow. A man who can— who is in control of resources, who is in control of authority, who has such power, but of peace. He's calm. So every day I'm showing up, I'm making my people better. I'm not breaking them. I'm not losing myself or my identity. That's literally for me. I work in healing, I work in wholeness, I work in wholesomeness. That's, that's my goal. It's very hard to do because it was never modeled to me. It's very hard to do because I don't even know where to start from. But I'm using righteousness, peace, and joy as my indicators. As the indicator. Is this the right thing to do? Do I feel peace about it? Am I happy about it? So this, for me, if I can be this— I spent the last decade 30 to 40 trying to make money. Then I discovered there are problems money cannot solve. I'm committed to this next decade to become that man. It's going to be hard, it's going to be tough, but I think it's exciting to try.

This is a smoky conversation. I want to thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much.