NO RELIGION IS DESIGNED TO ANSWER HUMAN PROBLEMS

This version, I think, of Christianity is going to be irrelevant.

It's already irrelevant.

Probably in the next 10 years. If the church doesn't recognize the disservice that it's doing, particularly to the masses, we're going to end up with it not having any place whatsoever.

I absolutely agree. Rontia Ade Benson Idahosa, daughter of the legendary Archbishop Benson Idahosa, a dual-qualified British and American attorney and founder of Pathfinders Justice Initiative. I absolutely believe that It's one of the reasons why we seem to be increasing in numbers, but yet we are powerless. It looks like the intention of God was just people will live on hell on earth and then try to make it to heaven. That doesn't make sense. That's not the God of the Bible.

Yeah, but that's what the church needs to be able to continue to fuel the pockets of many of our pastors, particularly here in Nigeria. You need to incentivize heaven. You need to have hell as a space of punishment. What does a church look like when you remove heaven and take away—

I believe that whatever whatever people will do. If it is said now that there is no heaven or hell, whatever they manifest going forward is the culture they have. All those who have practiced Christianity and the motivation is fear of hell, you are going to see that they were never transformed. They were monsters who were only afraid of God. Have you ever gotten to the point where you became sick and tired of what you were seeing in church?

Absolutely. I've walked out on some men of God speaking.

Did you deliberately you want to have your place on the pulpit?

I don't know if I would even be allowed, but it's not what I was called to do. My ministry is to awaken the average African to their divine nature, to understand that they themselves are manifestations of God.

There might be people who have mocked you and said, nope, she doesn't look like her father, how can that be the daughter of the Daosa? Have you heard that before?

I get that all the time. Somebody has even told me that my father is rolling over in his grave right now with shame.

Someone told you that?

Like I said, at what cost? You're I'm not going to take my authenticity. Truth be told, I believe that my father would actually be proud of the way that I've incorporated and embody, um, the Christ.

Welcome you to the Classified Podcast. Um, myself and my team, we've been working so hard behind the scenes to get different intellectual conversations across to you. We know that this Conversations will form the basis for what will change our world as we know it, because words form narratives, narratives shape culture. And this is the reason why I want to invite you to join me on this journey, not just as one who is going to view this today. I want to have you on board with me, and I like for you to just do these 3 quick things for me. Number 1, I'd like for you to like this particular podcast. You know, don't just watch, just like. I want you to do that for me. And when you do this, the algorithm takes this to as many people as possible who can now have access to enjoy the very same thing you're enjoying. Also, I'd like for you to drop comment. Let us know how this has impacted you, things you've learned, and sometimes just your own view. And I'd like for you to also subscribe on this YouTube channel. I'd like for us to grow together as a community. I look forward to having you again and again on the Classified Podcast, and I can't wait to see you some other time. Thank you. Hey, we are about to have something very, very hot here. But first and foremost, I want to start by telling you what I respect most about you, and that's the fact that you are your authentic self.

Femi Lazarus.

I don't know what it's taken you to get to this point. I don't know if you have stripes for it. I don't know if you have things you've lost to be able to maintain your stance. But if I may start by asking, what has this journey been like for you? The journey of authenticity as you have it?

Well, I think it's important to recognize what authenticity is.

Yes, right.

So it's not necessarily the courage to be your best personality. Authenticity is the courage to be the divine. It is the courage to walk as divinity in motion, right? And so we all have that capacity within us to be our higher self, the Christ-conscious mind, as I would describe it. Um, and so for me this is— I've known no other way, you know. My father nicknamed me Pathfinder when I was 9 because he said I was just— this guy, you just define your own wah gah, like, you know, you chart your own course. And, you know, I think the effort as a child for people to, you know, try to push me into one particular path or course, or to be the daughter of this, or I've always resisted that. Um, it was just part of my nature to resist that.

And so do you feel you could have probably gained more if people, if people around you, everyone know that you are the daughter of late Bishop, late Archbishop Benson Daosa?

At what cost?

That's a big question.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not willing to sacrifice who I am for anybody, including a heritage. Yeah, I mean, and I learned that from my father.

Well, I saw that video where you were talking about people ask you out saying that, um, maybe they want to be close to the mantle of Bishop Femi Lazarus or something. What's that like for you?

It's interesting, you know, because, um, as I said, it's interesting to have people love, love you because they believe that they love your parents, right? So they don't see you as a complete sovereign being. They see you through the lens of somebody else's experience. And so for me, I think whenever I get— you know, I was saying that, you know, at least once a year I get a marriage proposal from somebody who feels like they've had a supernatural experience, you know. Usually they've— with my father, usually right after they had a dream, they had a dream that my father appeared to them. And then I get a DM, woman of God, daughter of Zion, You don't like the woman of God stuff? No, no, no, I'm not. I'm just Ronke Adeye, and that's, um, you know, I think that starts to create a certain level of hierarchy, right? When, you know, if someone is a woman of God, then somebody else is something else, right? If you're gonna call me a woman of God, then all of us should be called that.

Ah, you've used some strong words, uh, Christ consciousness, divine nature. Views are very strong. What's your idea of spirituality like?

For me, spirituality is a direct, unadulterated relationship with God, right?

It's unadulterated.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's recognizing exactly who I am. I'll tell you this, um, I meditate, and, you know, I, I'm one of the people that has— I have, I have 7 names. Ruth, Ronti Ade, Blessing, Benson. My father named me Benson.

Interesting.

Yes, so I'm Benson Idahosa III, after my brother. Wow. Elogosa is my Edo name. Wow. Yvonne Tsokumbo. And there was a day in my meditation that I was saying to God, you know, God, what do you call me? You know, so when I wake up, my eyes open, and you see, say, oh, this person is awake. What do you call me? And the Spirit of God said, I call you me, I call you me, meaning that when God sees me, God sees itself, himself, themselves, right? And so when you recognize that you are a manifestation, a fractal of God, it changes how you move.

Absolute manifestation.

Yeah.

Like, are you saying it is possible? Like I said behind the scene, and for those who are watching, You know, the only time I've said on this podcast we're gonna have back and forth was when I brought my sister, um, Grace Ofure. Now I brought another my sister. So we are going to have some back and forth, so don't worry, it's not really aramboo. Um, so I, I want to just ask this question. Maybe we are going to start from this point. Do you believe a person can manifest God in its entirety, 100%?

I think that when you look at Christ, look at, you see that embodied in Christ, right? And so I see, you know, the Bible references the fact that Jesus grew in grace and stature and favor among men. And once he became, once he was perfected, he became, right? And so I think it's a journey, it's a process, but, And I refer to that as awakening to your divine self, right? And so I think that that perfection, particularly for us in this physical world, may seem difficult, may seem challenging, but it's available. The way that the Christ achieved it, you and I can also achieve it.

Yeah, to come into that full nature.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you don't think so?

No, no, I, I believe so. Yeah, I just open— is there part of it you're not saying yet? No, it depends on what your response is, you know, because I mean, as he is, so are we in this world. Um, Christ, um, is the express image of the invisible God, and that we have also been fashioned after that likeness to manifest that divine nature. What do you think will you will call the peak of that manifestation for you? Well, I see Christ as the peak of spirituality.

Um, I would describe it as, as far as our purpose, ultimately the goal of spirituality is to know yourself as God, right? Um, and for some people, I think, you know, it's limiting their understanding of God to a transactional relationship. But when you start to know yourself as God, you start to recognize that what you just said, as he is so is the world.

I'm conscious of that word, know yourself as God. Is that not close to New Age practice?

Well, I mean, if you want to call Paul a New Age practitioner, Paul says that I may know him.

You know about New Age practice?

Yes, of course.

What do you think it's about?

Well, let me answer one question first. So Paul says that I may know him.

Yes, the power of his resurrection.

And so that knowing is very different from believing, which is where most Christians stop.

Yeah, right.

So just believing, you know, even though Christ Jesus doesn't say worship me, we believe, you know, at most some people might follow. But I think part of what I'm endeavoring for people to understand is that we need to shift from just believing in the Christ to becoming the Christ. And that's a completely different conversation.

I get what you're saying. I'm trying to understand the context. I'm trying to understand in the exactitude of what you are saying, but I get the concept of the Christ, because the word Christ means anointed one. So if you're saying that in becoming the— in becoming Christ or the Christ Which one are you saying?

I'm saying becoming the Christ, becoming the Christ. So not the one who died and rose, not, not becoming Jesus, but becoming the higher self, the higher mind, the part of Jesus that looks like God, walking in your divinity, right? Recognizing that every time you enter a space, everything has to shift, everything has to recognize the divine within you, that when you enter into a space Things start to reorganize themselves simply because you enter. That's what it means to be witnessing, right? It's not going around preaching, banging people on the head. It says it's the goodness of God that leads to repentance. It's not going around shouting and saying you must be, and if you don't, then, you know, eternal hellfire for you. It's being. It's your mere presence that transforms.

I personally don't believe that I feel that— that this is what I believe— the tool of religion is false hope and fear. People keep having ritualistic practices and not have definitive answers as touching the problems of the world using the word or the wisdom of God. I think that's religion, and I think what we have been called to is the kingdom. Which express itself more through the transformation of life, through the love of God. I really don't believe that God is that being that wants to break you through fear. I, in the sense that many believe in it. It's not, it's not. I, in fact, I was sharing this, that if God wanted fear to be the motivation for our worship, He could have destroyed the devil when he rebelled, right? The reason why he never did is because man is a free moral agent. He wants a system where people can get to choose. There'll be consequences for the choices, but at the same time, fear should not be the reason why. And if you think like that, and I believe that's what you see too, is that the way you also reason?

I think some of it, some of it. I think, you know, in my, in my experience Religion is a cultural, as it's been said, religion is a cultural understanding of the supernatural.

Religion is a cultural understanding of the supernatural.

So you see people in India, you know, become, you know, being, you know, Buddhists and Hindus. You see Arabs being Muslims, right? It's only in Africa that you see us looking for God outside of our culture. Right? And so for me, those two are very much aligned in, in, in a way that when we separate them—

when you say looking for good outside that culture, what do you mean?

Meaning essentially, um, the fact that one of the things that colonization did, yeah, was, um, really an attempt to strip us of our sovereignty, right? Of our sacredness, of the part of us that looked like God. I think the worst aspect of it was the identity theft, not even the theft of the resources from the land or the human resources. It was the theft of our identity that was swapped for an inferiority complex, right? And so that created the biggest problem that we have as Africans, and it's been wrapped in the context of religion in some ways. And that's why I agree that it is the opioid of the masses.

It is.

And when you think of it that way, your identity will never really surface when the version of God that you serve doesn't look like you, doesn't sound like you, doesn't have your accent, doesn't have your skin color, doesn't move the way that you do, doesn't connect to the ground, to the earth, to those that came before us, our ancestors, and in the same way that it was originally intended. One of the things that I, I like to ask pastors, and I'd like to get your answer on this, um, is this idea that, you know, particularly as Christians, we believe that in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.

Yes.

Right? Um, and if that's the case, then prior to any understanding of the beginning, Jesus, yes, as Africans, yes, we had some connection to this word, right? We didn't call it Jesus, but there was— there must have been some connection if we believe that in the beginning was the word, right?

Yes, and I'll tell you in the sense that I said yes.

So here's what my question is: what makes your experience, because you call it Jesus, more legitimate than somebody else who has had that experience with the same divine being, with the same logos, with the same word? What makes your experience, because you call it Jesus, more legitimate?

Are you talking in respect to time dispensation? How do you want to know now compared to those who had that experience but didn't know who or what they were having the experience with? No, because I think part of the issue is that we tend to demonize I think the difference between us and those other generations is clarity, in the sense that we have access to information of the Word, and then that makes us less prone to error.

Um, so first thing first, um, what word are you referring to when you say the Word?

Jesus. Okay, so you're talking about the dispensation where the image of God or his person can be seen through the things that he made. The Bible said that, that even creation can reveal the glory, talks about this person. There's a concept that you can tell the nature of a person from what he has made, and that's what God exactly did. He made everything to reflect an aspect of his nature. So they only carry certain parts, certain semblance, like a smoke screen. What I believe is Jesus Christ himself personified is the full manifestation of that image. And to come to know him is to come to know the fullness of that image. If we have the image in bits and pieces from nature, from trees, from the ocean, it's like we're connecting to aspect of the earth. There is no guidance which makes one— it's like an open line that makes you predisposed to error. And then one can switch from spirituality to spiritism. So I've had people look at the things that I do and say, oh, it's like this pastor is having some form of awakening. And I just say, hold on a minute. This is what I believe about awakening. If we come to understand the Word of God in the sense that it was written as a kingdom manual, as a code of an intelligence, not just as a religious manual for some ritualistic practice, in itself, that's an awakening. So I don't subscribe to many things people do in the sense of the ritualistic practice. I believe that the most important thing Jesus did while he was on earth was his emphasis on kingdom. And I feel that's what has been less taught. I feel if we understand that emphasis, it touch the government, touch the system, touch conservation, touch everything. And that's where we have to understand ourselves as being of dominion. So I understand that in ancient times, what people had the Bible or have access to missionaries or have access to all those things. I mean, these are questions, legitimate questions on ground, that are we saying that all those generations will all die and go to hell? By what metrics will God judge them? And, you know, and those are questions, those are very legit questions. But I will answer in respect to what we have now. We have a more better picture that makes us less prone to hell. Yeah, that would be my answer.

Okay, I can accept, I can accept some of that.

Some of it?

Yes, I can accept some of it, uh, because Because I think it's, you know, the information that we have now, um, not just through, you know, newer manuscripts that, you know, describe, you know, more in the fullness of, of what the Christ is, but also I think in just with technology, but also with our own understanding of the logos, right? I think that there's, there's, there's a, there's a bigger understanding of God and of the Christ.

Um, do you get to have bigger understanding outside the Bible? Do you feel the Bible is limited in terms of the knowledge it provides?

I think that God is bigger than any particular religion.

Yes.

And bigger than any particular scriptural book.

In what sense do you take the Bible? Do you take it as the framework of what we have been given to know and to guide us in safety in terms of our navigation, or you feel it's just one of those materials and then what we can still express and exercise our findings beyond it and make them the foundation for our beliefs.

Ah, it's interesting because when I look at the life of Christ, um, as an example, uh, the woman that was allegedly caught in adultery, right? So, you know, you see, you see Christ doing something that was, that deviated from the religious, from the religious book at the time, right? And so For me, I believe that God speaks even beyond what was captured.

Do you take that as a template to go beyond?

I use it as a guidepost, but I think that I know that God speaks to me beyond what is in the Bible. And I think when you start to look at the different interpretations of the Bible, when you look at the translations, when you look at the intentions of those who composed it, when you look at the intentions of King James, when you think of Constantine and the way that, you know, which books were included, which books were left out, you know, by the time you get to what we have, I wonder how far—

how many times that was watered down—

how deviated, even watered down, um, it may have been from the original manuscript. So I, I do think it is the inspired and life-giving word of God, but I, I know that God speaks to me beyond what is contained in the Bible.

Yeah, I mean, if we can go back and forth on that, as touching the issue of the woman that was caught in adultery, I think Predominantly the reason why Jesus didn't allow them kill the woman and seemed to bring something higher is because he is, he was on his way to dying for her. And they had not come to receive that. The Bible said because of the hardness of their heart. So they were left to walk in that dispensation with the law written on stones for Moses. And all of them were veiled, didn't understand that. And what he gave that woman was a foretaste of what grace looks like. But he didn't just rescue her from death, he also gave her an instruction, which I believe It's also more of a manual for us. And he said, go and sin no more. And then that telling us that the fact that there is mercy, love, and compassion, it's not also a yardstick for people to continue in that which has the ability to destroy them. So, so I get what you're saying in the sense that, for instance, we can get inspiration, technological inspiration, media inspiration, that doesn't necessarily come with thou art and thou art my daughter. I'm saying this, you know, I believe that God is bigger than what we think He is.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

I absolutely believe that.

Yeah.

What I also do believe is that it's a vast world, not just the physical world, the spiritual world. And we are sojourning in our thoughts, in our conversation around spirits that can be treacherous. So I see the Bible as the word of God in the sense that it is the framework of what God considers safe for us in terms of our navigation, so we don't become victims of deceptive forces. Yeah, that's in the sense that I see it.

Yeah, but then how do you explain the fact that— let's just take the Old Testament Hebrew to Latin, to Greek, to Aramaic, Septuagint, you know, go to the New Testament Aramaic. Like, how do you then— how can you then decipher without— and I hope that your answer would be because of your discernment and reliance on the Holy Spirit.

Yes.

But for the average person that's in our church pews, they're not trying to—

yeah.

Yeah, and you know, most people just take the Bible literally, right? Or they say they take it literally until it comes to, you know, pluck out your eye and cut off your arm, right? Um, but most of us, when we say we take the Bible literally and we think that the Bible is inerrant, that's not necessarily true. Um, so I'm wondering, how do you explain all of those iterations and translations and the fact that, you know, as a, as a human being, if If I were to, if I were to ask you about this podcast later, you would have a different experience of it. You would look at it through the experiences that you've had, through some of your traumas, through some of your experiences with other women of God, right? Yeah. But, and if, if you were to ask anybody who's recording this, they would have a different perception.

Yeah, true.

So we bring all of that to the text. Yeah, right. A friend of mine says the Bible doesn't show you who God is, it shows you who you are, right? So in your interpretation of it is how you then utilize it or weaponize it even against other people, right? So I guess part of, part of what I'm trying to say is, and how do you then sift through all that is to discern exactly what it is that, that is the quote-unquote word of God?

One of the things I will— we agree on is the fact that—

are you sure?

Yes. And that's why you're even here. We may go back and forth. Some of them is to have clarity for my audience. It's the fact that just the same way a knife in the kitchen is for cutting when it comes to cooking, but someone with the wrong intention can take that knife and use it as an instrument to kill. So I think certain things in terms of the application and usage depends on the handler. People have used the Bible to colonize other countries, to justify slave trade, to justify the Crusades. The Crusades. I mean, look at the era of the Crusades. Thousands, hundreds of thousands of people were wiped out by even the church. Now they are excavating graves of children raped By certain bodies and clergies and all that. Over the years, people have done different things with the Bible.

Yeah.

They've used the Bible to establish the system of patriarchy that seems to dismiss women, their feelings, their experience, subjugated people in bad marriages. They died in it. Some of these things, some people deliberately did.

Yeah.

Some did for their greed, then some did for their ignorance.

Yeah, sure. But you also see it being, you know, things like slavery, misogyny, being supposedly God is instructing people to carry out genocide.

No, in the same way, I do have an ideology that the fact that you have an assumption about a concept cannot create or recreate the originality of the concept.

Well, how is it an assumption when it says God is instructing genocide? God is instructing, um, not, you know, Paul endeavors to regulate slavery at some point in Philemon, right? But there are scriptures that where it's clear that God says go kill every man, woman, children, non-combatants, like the instruction he gave to Saul about the Amalekites.

Yeah, so and all that.

How, how do we then reconcile all of that as the word of God? These are the questions that I— when it comes to the questions that I'm asking.

Yeah, when it comes to handling the Bible, I really— everything in the Bible is not literal. I'm going to explain that.

Hyperbolic in some sense?

In the— no, in the use of word. We both agree that some words in the Bible are metaphorical. I'm not saying the killings. So let me tell you what I don't believe.

Okay.

I don't believe that, for instance, the nation of Israel as we have it is a sacred nation, considering the genocide going on in Gaza, considering the number of children being killed of the Palestinians, considering all those things, I really do not share that belief. I do not think God has favorites, and the Bible is clear on that.

Or chosen people.

I think the whole concept of Israel as a chosen nation is the idea of it, and the fulfillment of it is Christ. From the moment Christ came, was born, died, resurrected, we all have become chosen people. But you see, And that's why you see when you go to the nation of Israel themselves, they don't even like Christ because Christ is bad for business.

A lot of people there are atheists. People are surprised.

They don't like Christ because to, to like Christ and to believe what Christ represents is to also have the understanding that they are not a sacred cow, and then to also dismiss all the rubbish and the things that are going on there. So over the years, governments— and I say this and it's the fact, people, you can check this— governments have try to regulate certain things about the church in a way that, that satisfies their political agenda, in a way that satisfies their greed, in a way that satisfies their, um, their quest. And this has influenced, so in some cases, some translations of the Bible. I, I feel that the closest we can in terms of getting to the truth is to understand First, that the Bible is not a book you read literally like any other book, in the sense that there is something we call biblical hermeneutics. It's the science of interpretation of scriptures. So we, when we get to that point, we are trying to interpret this and get to the closest usage of this word. We say in school of theology that it's always going to be subject to— the Bible is a closed canon. Let's first start with that, in the sense that it's closed. And any personal revelation anybody gets cannot be greater than the written word. But how then do people interpret that word that is written? You can't just pick a verse and make a doctrine, a teaching, a life out of it.

I agree.

So if people say that God supports slavery, my question is that, do you even understand how to establish a doctrine? Some people say that in the mouth of two or three witnesses, that there must be scriptures that agree to that. But I also recommend, which is a sound theological recommendation, that if a thing cannot pass as a body of doctrine if the entire corroborative work of Scripture doesn't support it. So if we look at the flow of Scripture, because the flow, we call it the salvific flow, from Genesis till Jesus, if the nature of God in that time, as, as we flow and rise in gradient of knowledge, doesn't support that thing, it doesn't matter what you find to be written in just this singular passage. Is not true.

Yeah, I, I guess I can, I can, I can understand why you as a pastor would take that posture.

Um, is that so?

I can understand it.

You don't take that for sure.

I think you, it's, you're, you, you would have to manipulate several things for it to make, for it to make logical sense.

What I just said now?

Yes, because you would have to be able to you know, right, you know, say, okay, all the scriptures about slavery, all the scriptures about misogyny, you know, you have to look at it.

You want to give me scriptures in the epistles?

Yeah.

Which is the explanation of the gospels.

Where slavery is, um, where slavery is condoned by God.

Slave obey your masters.

Slave obey your masters. You also see Paul instructing Philemon to take back, uh, I forget the name of the guy that was his slave, but to treat him regulates, it just treats him nicely, right? You see, I mean, there's the things that are problematic with the way that some of the text is set up. But let me tell you what I do that makes it a lot more—

I'm gonna ask that question, yes, yes.

For me is that I don't believe that that is the nature of God.

It's not the nature of God.

And so to me, the most I can agree with is that perhaps some of it is hyperbole, it's exaggerated, it's, you know, perhaps Israel needed, you know, Moses needed to keep people in check, and so they just threw something. But when I look at the nature of the God that I know, the God that, um, you see reflected through the Christ, that's, that's just not who God is. And so that's a much easier way to digest all of those things.

You are taking solace in the fact that some of the things that have been written have been written exaggeratedly? Is that what you're saying?

Exaggeratedly, or for, or within, with certain intentions to achieve certain outcomes.

Where do you place what Paul told Timothy, that all scripture is given by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

What?

All scripture is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and is profitable for doctrine, for instruction. Where do you put that?

Yeah, so I look at the word, that word inspired and look at the original Greek there, and one interpretation is life-giving. I mean, this is exactly what I was talking about. This is what I was talking about with biblical interpretation. So the Greek interpreter was looking at that verse, could look at life-giving, could look at inspired, and based on your experience, you can just decide, you know what, this, I feel inspired is better here than life-giving. And so you, people choose Right? Again, the Bible is showing you who you are, right? So if you're choosing that it's inspired with an intention—

Anybody can just choose.

Well, look at the word love in the Bible. There's so many different meanings.

Charity.

There's romantic love, there's platonic love, there's agape love, and it's all one word. Somebody chooses which interpretation to use.

Yeah, but the interpretation that you choose must be in the context of the usage. For instance, if I say that I love this book, it can be in the context when I also— the same context when I also say I love my wife. It's same word. I don't get to choose the context, choose the interpretation.

That's your experience.

The idea of studying of the Bible is to get to the context so we can pick the word using the context Because if we have liberty to pick the word, then we destroy the context.

Is it, is it to get to the context or to the intention of the heart?

And that's why we don't pick just a verse and draw conclusions.

You didn't answer my question.

What's your question?

Is it to get to the context or to get to the intention of the heart of God? Right, because if you're looking at the context—

can we separate the intention from the context?

Yes, absolutely. When you look at the context—

absolutely.

Yes, let me explain.

You're a lawyer.

Yes, let me explain. Okay. When you look at the context, you could be looking at what's happening in the time, right? People who read, who study the Bible, academics, and most pastors go to Bible school, they don't go to seminary, right? People, but biblical scholars, and which is a problem for me as a matter of fact, but biblical scholars who study the Bible look at the world behind the text. They look at the world of the text. They look at the world in front of the text. That is context.

That's how the Bible is to be studied.

That's how it's, that's the academic study of the Bible. Yes. But most people are just looking at the literal words. Words, right? And they use it to weaponize against other people, other religions, other, you know, individuals. Like, so everybody has to go to somebody's hell.

Anyone who gets to choose the context of a word for themselves without checking the context of its usage will get to weaponize it either against people or to win an argument.

Sure.

Like you try to do now.

No, but that's what, that's what the 47 or 48 scribes that, or interpreters that King James brought They all bring their own selves, their own understanding, and they looked at the context and they decided, okay, this is the word that makes the most sense. But these are human beings that are choosing, right? And if you want to say it's based on the inspiration of God, I can give you that. But it's also, is it possible that we can look at it and say the word of God is life-giving, right? It's life-giving, and that sits it's just as well for me as— and it's a little bit easier, I think, to, to, to—

a more palatable than to use the word inspired.

Because when you look at then, is slavery inspired by God? Is misogyny inspired by God? That's all scripture. Yes, right.

It's— no, you can't say that's all scripture.

No, you said all scripture is inspired. So is that, is that inspired? In the canon, genocide inspired.

For instance, you look at Cain killed Abel. Was that inspired by God? I think we have to take note of the fact that the Bible is an accurate documentation of events and words of people.

It's an accurate— you think it's an accurate documentation? If you look at the historical— if you look at the history, you see the Bible borrowing from other cultures.

I'm going to take the word— that's why I use the word documentation. I'm going to use the word accurate in terms of what God needs to be passed on those. Let me give you an instance now.

For instance, let me ask you another question. Yes, back and forth. So some of the Apocrypha, some of the Gnostic books, you don't think that those were intended to be passed on to us?

There's been different councils that have sat over the canon over the years, several councils. I think the most, um, popular one that people kind of know is the Council of Nicaea, and there were metrics to determine the adoption. Now, consistency of thoughts, the work of Christ, the significance of it— there were other metrics. And the council itself took months. It took months. It was not something that was just—

and they were fighting. They came to blows. Like, this was not a— it wasn't a very diplomatic—

I've been in systems where we've had to draft constitution for organizations. Some are religious constitutions, and for religious organizations, some are for secular organizations. When it comes to adoption, when you have different documents, one of the most significant thing you want to do is to make sure that those decisions are made in respect to, um, the future. Now, if we believe that the plan of God was aborted at the council, those councils, in the sense that the things that God wants to get to us didn't get to cover those councils, then it betrays the idea of how the entire canon got to us in the first place. Many of these people were burnt, some of the scrolls were thrown into the water, survived different conditions to make it to where we are today. Do you know, if it had survived all those things, is it a council that God could not interrupt with voices and get people there to speak as to what could be documented or not documented?

Sure, I mean, I guess that's one way, that's one way to see it.

Um, one way to see—

I think it's one— no, because I think when you, when you, when you're thinking about it in the way that, that you've just articulated, yes, right, um, that's, that's what has been passed down to us. That's what— but you also have to recognize that the, the people who are making these decisions, making these— there were intentions behind some of this, right? There were intentions to exclude certain scriptures, to exclude— because The Book of Mary, for example, she was the closest person from what we understand to Jesus Christ, but that was excluded. Why? Why would that be excluded?

Have you taken the time to read all the apocryphas?

Not all of them, but many. Yeah, because it's important to me to understand the full understanding of what was happening at the time. For the first several hundred years after the, after the death of Christ, the church was not unified on what Christianity was. There were many different versions, many interpretations. Many centuries.

And we— I mean, it's more than even 700 years. And we understand that historically because, again, despite all those councils, an average believer at that time didn't have access to the document, right? And that's why we're— and we absolutely agree as touching the fact that there's been attempts for human influence to tamper with these things. And yes, I also agree that over the years people have weaponized it till now. Yeah, for their personal greed, for their empires. And in a sense that— and I, I absolutely believe that it's one of the reasons why we seem to be increasing in numbers but yet we are powerless. It looks like the intention of God was just people will live on hell on earth and then try to make it to heaven. That doesn't make sense. That's not the God of the Bible.

Yeah, but that's what the church needs to be able to continue to fill the pockets of many of our pastors, particularly here in Nigeria. You need to incentivize heaven. You need to have hell as a space of punishment. What does a church look like when you remove heaven and take away—

when you talk about the idea of incentive advice in people's pocket, I, I can absolutely say Some do it out of ignorance and some are outright thieves. Some have no business in it. It's been weaponized. We have to agree. It's become a caricature of the intentions of Jesus, of God even. I look at the word Matthew 1:28, where God said, I have dominion on the world, there is to prevail.

These are the same scriptures that what we're saying is all inspired, that we are using in an effort to do a disservice to the average African, to the average Nigerian.

I think part of the things we must agree that has gone wrong with the church over the years is that we read the Bible with a colonised mind.

I agree with you. Yeah.

Particularly in Africa. And that's why we seem to have this ideology that just want to escape families, escape government, escape friends, escape terrorism. And since we don't have the wisdom to solve the problem, we take rest because man must rest on something. We take our solace in the fact that that by and by soon we're just going to be caught up. And people have died believing that. I believe the subject of the rapture, and when you study biblical eschatology, is true. I think it's going to come. Nobody knows the date or the time.

Not even Jesus, apparently.

Apparently he said that himself. So, um, and I think that the idea of God cannot be that after the death, burial, resurrection, and all the sacrifice, that the church should be a defeated entity whose only response to systems on earth is Let's just pray. I don't subscribe to that. And I think because that has become an ideology, it has put us in the place of salt that have lost its taste. Because salt does not stay in the soup just to be present, it changes it. And the Bible said what happens to salt that have lost the taste is that to be thrown out and trampled under feet. And I believe that the collective insult we receive every day, um, from the world, we may feel it's been weaponized by the devil, it doesn't look pleasant. As long as you carry the name of clergy, you are prone to that insult, you are going to receive a fresh air. All you have to do is for people to misunderstand something you said or stand for, they will bring it. I think it's the exact reality of a soul that have lost the taste.

So then why, how do you change that in Nigeria?

We've got to go away from religion and come back to the kingdom. We have a part to play. We are not just— we cannot convince people about a heaven that we have not created a prototype here on earth.

Mhm.

I think the idea of God, and that's why Jesus said in Matthew 6, is after this manner you pray, that our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. He didn't say take us to heaven. He said thy kingdom come. I think the idea is that we are to represent the intention, the fullness, the government. If somebody is broke, has not eaten all day, and I step into that person's world with enough money, what happens there? The idea of hunger ends for that person. It means I brought a system that has influenced that and changed it. How do we claim to have something superior and it's not changing what we have here? It doesn't make sense. The idea can't just be to congregate and gather and sing hymns, and then they are killing us. I would just say, oh God, I don't believe in that. And I think what we have now that may still extend is the consequence of our negligence over the years. And if we keep neglecting systems and structures and demonizing those who are going there and demonizing the systems, and we don't get involved in entertainment, in politics, in families, in government, I think we're going to have much more hell on earth. And that's where I agree what you said. Yeah, that evil is what we have where we are not working our consciousness. We create a vacuum, and there's no vacuum in space. Something just fills it up.

Yeah, I mean, this version, I think, of Christianity is going to be irrelevant at some point.

It's already relevant in—

I would say probably in the next 10 years. If I think if the church doesn't, um, recognize the disservice that it's doing, particularly to the masses, we're going to end up with, with it not having any, any place whatsoever.

I agree.

Yeah.

You know, the most painful thing about the wrong belief system is that you can die with it.

Mm-hmm.

And quite a number of people have died with it. What's your biggest frustration about this current version of Christianity?

Uh, I think that it encourages people to outsource responsibility. That's probably the biggest issue I have. Um, so for example, if something is happening in your day-to-day life, you know, the idea is to pray about it. Nigeria has probably the most churches, I would say, you know, per square kilometer in the world. That, yeah, I probably agree. And, um, but yet we don't see any of that. We look at other countries that are primarily atheists leading on in almost outperforming Nigeria or in almost every sector, you know. But yet our pastors are encouraging us primarily— I'm not saying all because I know that doesn't refer to everybody— but the idea that we are doing such a disservice. Um, you know, I mentioned earlier that innocent blood has a voice, and I think that pastors are going to be held responsible for some of the— their unwillingness, um, to prioritize, uh, the sheep, as it's been referred to.

You're absolutely correct. But take, for instance, look at the number of people that have died because a church denomination believe that you should not take blood transfusion.

Mm-hmm.

Who is to account for all those blood? I mean, I, I don't think it makes sense that we have a system where anyone can just believe anything and use that thing to terrorize, colonize, and destroy people's lives. I absolutely— it can't make sense.

Yeah, people need to— people need to have the courage to start to know God for themselves by reading the Bible. By reading the Bible, sure, but also I think experiencing God for yourself, right? Because again, I think that there are some aspects of the Bible that are problematic, right? And it's been used to— yes, let's say there are some aspects that have been weaponized.

Yeah, should we use the word weaponized, not problematic? But like, we also agree people can weaponize good. And see, let me be honest with you, there's a reason why this podcast even exists. You'll be amazed that we say these same things here. It looks a bit acceptable.

Mm-hmm.

But if you say it in church— so the whole concept of the people, the idea of what God is and what his word is, is— it's, it's funny. And that has put us in the place, and which I rightly agree that if you build people on such error, you put them in the position where they depend on the clergy as their source of everything. And that will do nothing but raise a system where the esteem of the clergy is based on the sitting strength in the church. That if you check number of those who are seated there, they are actually— I'm sorry to say, not all, but in most cases— people who are defeated, people who are broken, and are just being maintained till they die. That cannot be God's idea. It's like we are building a system that is like the Pool of Bethesda. And let me explain that. Every once in a while there is a testimony.

Yeah.

And when there is a stirring, and if you know something about an environment where things work once in a while, to every testimony that happens, over 1,000 people more come because they want theirs. But the number of miracles compared to the presence of the problem doesn't matter. Match up. And Jesus came to break that system by saying, pick your bed and go. It means you don't have to gather for some superficial, some, some sensational stuff. If you can have the word, you'll be liberated. Think about it, that if Jesus get everyone at the Pool of Bethesda to be out of the Pool of Bethesda, whoever it is that made money from their problem is out of office. So imagine that many churches will close down. —people get to know the truth. Absolutely. And that's what Jesus doesn't want. He doesn't want people to be in the bondage in their hands, but they have weaponized his name.

But I think part of, part of the, the issue too is that most people are coming to church, um, have been, have been traumatized in their life, dealing with really, really serious problems. Yes. And they're— and the level of desperation, um, is unfortunately being directed to a person as opposed God, right? And so as ministers, you know, and I'm not on the pulpit, but I consider myself as someone who to a certain extent is called to awaken the Christ within each and every one of us, right? It's our responsibility, right, to redirect. So someone's coming to you and they're coming to you and they're throwing their passports at you so that, you know, give them visa to Japan or let me kiss your ring, or whatever. It's our responsibility to say no, to say no. You see Jesus directing. Can I be honest with you guys?

Yeah, it's a very heavy one to say. I think the source of this problem sometimes is the testimonies of the men of God. I just feel— I just, I just don't think it is right, even if it happens, that somebody use the cup that I used to drink water to drink water, and the person gets healed. I think if I make that as a testimony and share before a mass number of people, I'm creating an idol they will have to worship, which is the cup. Absolutely. And then I'm redirecting them to see me as the source of everything. But the truth of the matter is that we can only live for a certain extent, and if the faith is the faith, it ought to be transgenerational. I think the concept in which I believe Christianity is, is Jesus plus nothing. And that's the reason why it doesn't matter how effective I've been, where I've pastored. The moment I believe my time is up, God wants me out, I get out. Because I didn't die for them. I've never been worried about the fact that the attendance dropped. I think if it is the Church of Christ himself, everything is going to be fine.

Beyond you, it's beyond me.

So I think that while some things may truly happen, The fact that they make it as testimonies is the reason why people get to worship and idolize the pastor. And that's dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. Because when you idolize—

I don't think it's just dangerous, I think it's diabolical.

Yeah, it's man worship. Yeah. When you idolize a man, you also idolize the man's limitations. And the limitation of a man based on his nuances can become the limitation of an entire generation. Yeah. In that It doesn't make sense, and I think it's part of the reasons why we are where we are.

Absolutely, I agree with you, um, on that. And, you know, part of my— part of, I think, what God has called me to do is also to call out some of this. Yes. And I have no issue, like, standing in front of anybody telling them that this— what you're doing—

there's been testimonies about your dad. That at some point they were about to build a church and it was close to the road due to government regulation, and he gathered men and they pushed the fence and it moved. Is that true? I don't know. You've heard testimonies? I don't know.

You know, you know some of the funniest things that we hear after my— Papa said, Papa did, Papa.

So you guys do hear things and you are amazed that when did this happen?

We hear Yeah, people, you know, first of all, people forward me all kinds of videos. Probably weekly I get somebody forwarding me.

But of course there were cases of the dead that were raised.

Yes, yes, that my mom witnessed. You know, I personally did not witness that, but my mother witnessed them, and I believe her testimony.

And there are cases of the witches that were going to have meetings, which I heard him even share himself.

Yes, those stories. Yeah, the ones that I hear from my father's mouth. Aha, can you give examples on the ones that you heard from his mouth? So I think the first time he ever, uh, someone— God used him to raise someone from the dead, it was one of the funniest stories, you know, where, you know, he went to his pastor. His pastor was saying, you know, he— pastor was preaching that Sunday. I don't know if you heard this one. Oh yeah, pastor was preaching that Sunday and said, you know, you can raise the dead, you can bring— and he went to his pastor, have you done it? The pastor said, no, I've not done it. But can I do it? Yes, I can do it. And so he went around on his on his bicycle looking from house to house, "Anybody dead here? Anybody dead here?" And he said he finally came to a house and my mother was there. This is the one that she was at, she actually bore witness to. He came to a house where a girl had died in the morning. Yeah, and he went in to, you know, he basically pulled out the scripture, looked what Jesus was doing with the girl. I forget, you know, which young child it was. Yeah. And he basically, you know, basically tried to reenact the exact same thing. So he told the parents to clear the room so it was just him. He prayed the first time, he said nothing happened. He went back to the scripture, read it again, he came back, he prayed the second time, nothing happened. And on the third time when he prayed, the child sneezed. And so he— and my mother, you know, was in, in, in the house. And so everybody, she said, was shocked. Like, we couldn't— they couldn't believe that this had actually happened. So he told, you know, the parents, you know, he went back to the scripture, read it. Okay, give us something to eat. Okay, give us something to eat. But it was, you know, I think that part of what differentiated my father was the fact that he awakened to his divine nature, to that Christ that we're talking about. And one of the things I think that also makes him different was that a lot of people don't know that my father died with less than $10,000 in his bank account.

That's gonna be the next question I was gonna ask.

Going through, um, because he died with less than $10,000. I think the way that people envision it, that, oh, Idahosa, he's this— my dad was a conduit. Everything that God gave him, he poured, allowed to, allowed to go through him and out to others, right? And so that is why so much of his legacy is steeped not just about his name as an Idahosa, but the churches, the churches that he— and the churches that he, he created, but also the university the hospitals, the schools, the things that he was intentional about creating that would live beyond him, right? And so I think people— that's one big thing that's different, because now you see a lot of ministers amassing wealth for themselves at the expense of the people who are sitting in the, in the congregation. And that just was not the kind of quote-unquote prosperity, you know. My father lived for posterity, and I think that was one of the things that that's most distinguished about him. Distinguishing about him. Yeah.

You believe that the current method that we see pastors amassing wealth, flaunting wealth, flaunting designers, flaunting all those stuff, is contrary to the legacy that we see in men like Archbishop Benson Daoso?

Yes, but even more importantly, it's contrary to the simplicity of Christ. Christ, right? And I think that's, that's, that's what the standard should be. That's— my father was human. Yes. Um, he was flawed in many ways, and whether people want to believe it, definitely. Um, but I think the standard should be always whatever Christ was doing. You don't see, you don't see Jesus going around amassing wealth and hoarding. And, and, you know, it— his, his whole— when you think about the Christ, you think about love, you think about service, you think about humility. And I don't see a lot of those attributes in many of the people that we refer to as men of God, unfortunately.

Have you ever gotten to the point where you became sick and tired of what you were seeing in church? Absolutely.

I've walked out. Wow. On some men of God speaking. Um, you left the meeting? I've walked out, yeah. And I think it's, I think it's because the level of hypocrisy particularly when you hear about, you know, later on the stories and different things that they're doing behind the scenes and different, you know, baby mama this and, you know, impregnating and, you know, all the kind of, um, the things that, you know, they're, they're speaking against on the pulpit but living a completely different life, you know. Money laundering that's coming in through the church, you know, because, you know, one celebrity this or one— I mean, like, it's, it's, it's it's preposterous what's happening. And, you know, I mean, I'm known in my family as the conscience of the ministry, and that's because, you know, for me, the standard is Christ. Um, I love Jesus Christ, and I, and I want to emulate him. It's more important to me to, to embody the nature of Christ than to simply just claim the name of Christ.

Did you deliberately not have your place on the pulpit?

I don't know if I would even be allowed. But it's not what I was called to do, you know. I mean, we talk about taking Christ outside the four walls, outside, right? And, um, you know, my ministry is to awaken the average African to their divine nature, to understand that they themselves are manifestations of God, because I know how it shifted the way that I moved through the world. And I want everybody else to be able to understand that for themselves.

Wow. You don't believe that people should just congregate and have no effect beyond the church walls?

Absolutely not. It makes no sense. Um, it makes no sense. Uh, if you look at Jesus as the blueprint, imagine the impact that Jesus Christ has had. Yeah, right. And that possibility being within you. Yeah. And all you're doing every Sunday is coming to pay your tithes and worship a human being. If that's the case, it's, it's just not what the intention is, what the intention was.

And I think for most part, it's the reason why Christianity is perceived as a joke. Hmm. Because And I'm telling you, I say this with a lot of pain. I've had nights that I studied and broke down in tears. Nights that I stayed awake weeping. I used to have a corridor in my house. One time I was training someone and I said, several nights I've sat down here from night till morning. I look at what we are practicing and I look at what should be. You know, at some point, I've had people who say that, how can you be an apostle and you run podcast? What is that? So then it occurred to me that when these people read their Bible and see Jesus going to speak in the synagogue, they are actually thinking the synagogue is church. Because synagogue just means a place of meeting. It was gathering where the people gather. So there, there's been that whole holier-than-thou concept that, uh, do— and what do Christians do? They wake up every day, then they call themselves out, they listen to words not for transformation, not to be involved, to pick what they feel is wrong. And fight themselves every day. Pastors weaponize pulpit against themselves, compete in terms of attendance, compete in terms of wealth. I find it— I've sat down with people that people consider unbelievers, and I find them more reasonable than many of those they say are believers. Yeah, because you can sit with these people and come out with honest conversations, and you can sit with those in quotes who have the religious titles and you never spoke. You never spoke. They never spoke from their heart. They never related. They, they, they, they— you are both managing yourselves. You are both scared. You're both worried. You, you, you, you can't— they can't let you know their flaws. They can't let you know what's going on. You too, you are careful because next Sunday you may become a topic on the pulpit. So we, we, we have been so So we have created a system of fear and also use the fear to tie people down. You know, if I tell everybody in church what they should do and how they should do it, the fear is that who will remain seated in church if everybody is busy? So it means we're going to create a system where we need the attendance, and then we have to hold certain truths. So that you'll be too broken to have anywhere else to go, right? And that's not the—

yeah, yeah. I think it's be— it's also the fact that the, the church is, is powerless in some ways, right? So you don't see in many ways power of the Christ reflected, right? Um, and you don't see the influence of the Christ in, in, in, in, in the quote-unquote world, because so many of us are so concerned about, oh, I don't want to mix with— I don't want to be worldly, I don't want to, you know, go outside of the world, because the Bible says, be in the world but not of the world. And I, you know, one of the things you see, you know, when Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, he's talking about how, how you can clean the outside of a cup but the inside is still so dirty. The people that will look at me and say, oh, she has henna on her hands, you know, and that, you know, and there's, let's look, let's look at the outside and she shouldn't be doing that, you know, like, oh, and it's just hypocritical. In many ways, right? Because you talked about salt earlier, and salt has to dissolve into the rest of the food, right? It has to be immersed into the rest of the food for it to be effective, right? But if we're thinking we're salt and we're light, light has to be in darkness for it to be recognized as light, right? But the church is almost unwilling in some in some cases.

Oh yes, and it is even almost like the moment you accept the titles, your humanity dies. I have seen positions make monsters out of people. Truth. I have seen people that are— I'm not sure in their lifetime people can ever get to touch their real self again. They're like wax. They've been coated with multiple layers of deception, fronts that they have to put up up just to keep certain appearances, that now it's all performance. Even the greeting is mechanical. Even the way the answer is constructed, there's no reality. Yeah, yeah. And for me, and that's one of the things I try as much as possible, I'm not going to let ministry take away my humanity. And I'm going to tell you this one time, Femi Lazarus. We had an award program for NGOs under my NGO that I run years ago, I think 10 years ago, 2016 precisely. And so different NGO leaders were coming in, but I met this guy and I couldn't explain. As I saw him, there was something about him that broke me. I felt almost unworthy to stand in his presence. I saw a man that was void of self. I was seeing the power of nothing. I was seeing a kind of humility I don't have words for. At the time, in terms of physical accusation, it was the least of the NGO leaders. In fact, it goes from street to street sweeping. And I felt, and I'm sorry, I feel till today is the greatest human I've ever met. I've never met anyone that that happened to me. So I think the fact is that we don't know how to see the nature of God in people outside titles, that people may not even be the frantic, you know, all those stuff, but they seem to embody that divine nature even more than those with the caps and the chains and everything.

It reminds me of the, you know, when Jesus is talking about the separating the sheep from the goats, right? And he's saying, you know, and you know, the goats are saying, you're both, Lord, we did this for you, we did this for you. And he's like, when was that? You know, and then he looks, yeah, he looks at the sheep and they say, well, when did we do that? Because they were just doing it because that was the right thing to do, right? And it's those people that do it because of the intention of resembling Christ, right, that God counts worthy of— Not fear-motivated.

Like a culture. Like we have culture of hospitality, culture of kindness, culture of truthfulness. I'm not saying the truth because I don't want to go to hell, right? I'm saying the truth because there's a nature in me that has produced the culture. This has nothing to— because all you need to do is to find out that you're not going to hell, and the real monster in you is unleashed.

There is a Sufi mystic. And, you know, the story goes that, you know, she was running through her town carrying a bucket of water in one hand and a torch in the other hand, and somebody stops her and says, "Ah, where are you going? Where are you rushing so frantically to?" And she says, "I'm taking the bucket of water to put out the flames in hell, and I'm taking the torch to burn down the gates of heaven so that we can— so that people can actually worship God because of who God is, right? So no incentive, no, you know, no weaponizing, no fear. Let me just worship God because of who God is, right? And that's what you're talking about, right? Where it just, it comes out of you because you've truly experienced how you've had, um, you have a knowing of who, of who Christ is.

So let me tell you how I see it. I see the idea of Christianity as a Kingdom. I said the Bible as a constitution manual, and I see righteousness as a culture. That's the way I see it. Nothing about my life should be motivated by the fact that God is about to kill me if I make this mistake. What I, I believe that whatever people will do if It is said now that there is no heaven or hell. Whatever they manifest going forward is the culture they have.

It's who you really are.

All those who have practiced Christianity and the motivation is fear of hell, you are going to see that they were never transformed. They were monsters who were only afraid of God. And you'll be amazed, Revelation 21:27 says that there shall in no wise enter into it anything that worketh abomination or maketh a lie.

Even those who are fearful Yeah, because I mean, do you assume that God is not discerning of your hearts? So if I'm only accepting because somebody has put a gun to my head to say you'll miss heaven or you'll go to hell, you know, God knows that you're only— your heart is not circumcised to do the right thing, you know. But people think we can fool God somehow, like, you know, no, if your intention is not to actually be or become the Christ Yeah, as having the nature of Christ, just, you know, what we refer to as, you know, confessional Christianity. If you're just speaking, you know, believing, because the Bible says believe and confess that Jesus is your Lord and Savior. Most people are just willing to accept Christ as their Savior. But what about the Lord? What about the master part of it that guides what you say, what you do, how you treat your neighbor? How you don't steal, how you're not corrupt, how you step into a position of power and reflect goodness and mercy and grace. What about that aspect of lordship? No, I'm just okay with being Christ being Savior. But somebody else who may not necessarily identify with the name of Christ but has the nature of Christ, that person is condemned to eternal conscious hell. Wow.

You know, what you're saying is the clearest I've heard you. I don't think you've had your thoughts this much on many platforms. You speak a lot, you, you don't keep your thoughts, but hi, it's the clearest I've heard you. Because there might be people who have marked you and said, nope, she doesn't look like her father, how can that be the daughter? Yeah, I get that all the time.

I get people who are disappointed in me because now you born me, obviously I don't even know. People who believe my father would be disappointed in me. Somebody has even told me that my father is rolling over in his grave right now with shame. Someone told you that? I've heard all kinds of things.

Like they come on your social media to try to bully you? Yeah, yeah. So you get bullied on social media?

I get comments, people send me DMs primarily. Or, you know, why are you dressing like this? Your father, if your father saw you in this, would he be okay with it? You know, and like I said, at what cost? You know, you're not going to take my authenticity, you know, ultimately away from me. And to be truth be told, I believe that my father would actually be proud of the way that I've incorporated and embody I am the Christ.

Yeah. Let me ask this question lastly, and I first and foremost, um, due to the way we usually start this podcast, I just start directly, but I must tell you that I feel so honored having this conversation with you as a person. I said to myself, I, I didn't want to have this conversation with you. I'm not having discussion with you because you are the daughter of Archbishop Benson. That was I'm having this conversation with you because you have had certain thoughts. I've listened to you. I've paid attention to those things, not as clear as you have put them now. I've seen the direction of your heart. Can be easily misunderstood because we live in a culture where people are not patient to get intentions. Whatever it reminds them of clouds what the fellow has not said. And you can just notice that your entire effort is just demonized in your lifetime because of someone's assumption. And I just want to say, you know, that while what you're saying and what you stand for may not look conventional, but it is something that I believe that for most part of it, your view of the Kingdom, Christ consciousness, His nature, the influence of that in the things around us, the environment, the society. If we all think like this, we will not be in this mess in the first place.

Yeah, and that's what, you know, that's why I think I'm so intentional in my coaching. And I, you know, when people come, when clients come to me and they say, you know, I'm dealing with this and dealing with that, at the end of the day, my goal is to get them to understand their divine nature, right? To peel away all the trauma, all the layers, all the things that they feel, you know, society has told them, you know, to be, or even what they've learned in church. How do we start to unlearn some of these things? And go back to your divine nature, to the Christ that is within you, right? So that you can move through your traumas, to move through, um, some of the superficialities, yeah, right? So that you can get to a place where you are effective. Yes. You know, as someone that's within the kingdom of God, right? To bring heaven on earth so that people, when they encounter you, they encounter God.

Yes. Right. And that's the idea.

That's the, that's the idea.

And when that is not But there we now make the greatest mistake, which was the mistake Adam made, to try to use fig leaves to cover the glory. You know the word glory there is same word that translates God's nature. So we will use performance to try to cover for what ought to be divinely manifested in us. And we bring the performance in terms of don't use this, don't use that. Don't rub good, don't make your face fine, because the more bare it is, the more you reflect God. Don't wear clothes that are nicely made, make sure they're oversized so that you can show how spiritual you are. Yeah, we just get everything wrong. And oftentimes people run with one man's nuances and people can die in it. It shows how dangerous these things can be. Yeah. If not gotten right.

I think one of probably my favorite line in the Garden of Eden story is where God says, "Who told you you were naked?" Ah, that was something.

You were not supposed to be, unless someone told you.

And so for me, the idea that even the idea that that sin supposedly, right, that entered the world at that point in time, even then it didn't separate man from God, right?

That's in the— we're going to go back to the context.

You think it didn't separate? Because God still came to Adam. Yes, right, we're still engaging with Adam. Yes, you don't see the word sin in Genesis 1 or Genesis 2. You don't see— sin isn't used until Cain. Yes. Right, and even then it wasn't inside of Cain. The Bible says that sin was lurking at the door. At the door. And so if there was this idea that sin was already being passed generationally, then sin would have been inside Cain already, not lurking at the door.

This will be a full day conversation on its own. We— But— What you're saying, you're gonna scatter everywhere.

But we can go back and forth. The idea is that God, when God says, who told you you were naked? It's just, to me, I think of it as there's still no, there's no separate, God still is willing to love you, to accept you, to, you know, there's no, this idea that, you know, that, you know, whatever you can do, and I say this, I think, to encourage people too who are really in a dark place, who are struggling, who are feeling a sense of isolation because that's And that's sometimes what, you know, the church— and when I say the church, again, I'm not referring to everybody— has created, right, to result in dependence. To people who are really struggling with this, I want you to know that God sees you, right? And the part of us that feels a certain level of disappointment and shame within ourselves is just the corruption of who we actually really are.

Yeah, I mean, that's absolutely true. Romans 12 and Romans 8:1, there is now therefore no condemnation to them who are in Christ. Um, one of the things the devil does majorly is to get his work done through condemnation. And if you even look at that Genesis 3, the first time I came to the consciousness of that question, who told you that you are naked, it blew my world. And I saw that sin is not an end in itself. It puts you in the position where what the devil is about to say can now be believed, both about you and about God. And then it is when you now let that consciousness enter into you that every other form of devastation can now follow. And that's what we'll talk about, having the mind of Christ. And yes, unfortunately, many people who are even born washed with the blood of Jesus still move with the consciousness of that condemnation. And they believe their name is being written in the Book of Life and blotted out by performances and all that. And they don't even understand the word nature and what it means. You know, so, and if you look at it, I mean, Genesis 3, it shows how that the God of the Bible is not even what we are describing now, because the God of the Bible looked at Adam and He said, "Cursed is the ground for your sake." He looked at the serpent and said, "You are cursed above all creatures." But he looked at man and said, the ground is cursed for your sake. He never said you are cursed. He said the ground is cursed. And if we look at the idea of God driving them out of the Garden of Eden, for what purpose did he do that? Number one, so that they will not eat the Tree of Life and be eternally separated from him. That's protection. He said, I'll put enmity between the woman and the serpent. That's a blessing. You should not be joined with an enemy of your destiny. And they said that, um, the serpent will bruise the heel of the seed of the woman, that's talking about the Christ. I mean, talk about the seed of the woman will bruise the head of the serpent, that's talking about our victory in Christ. I don't know where we got the idea from that we begin to terrorize people's life with a God that is about to kill them. Because they fell short. I try to use this example. You use Google Maps. Have you used Google Maps before when you drive? Um, the Google Maps is like a guide when you're navigating a direction you don't know. It's like if you go to a place or to a place, that's your guide. It leads you there. The Holy Ghost is called Paracletos, a tour guide. If you miss a turn in Google, following the Google Maps, Do you get to hear the map say, hey, look at you, idiot, why did you turn there? Turn back, I'm gonna kill you now. Google Maps can have more courtesy than that. Yeah, if it reroutes and the ultimate goal is to get you to your destination, what then make people feel that when you sleep, God starts immediately plotting ways to kill you and abort your destination?

Yeah, that doesn't make Yeah, but you see, I think you see that happen, um, you know, because it's, it's again, fear has been weaponized as a tool in many ways, right? Um, and it's, it's not the intention of God. There's nothing that will ever be able to separate me. And I think that's also why, you know, I don't believe that I was born in sin and shaped in iniquity. That's a very big conversation. Yeah, I, I don't. I believe that I made in the image and in the likeness of Christ, and both things cannot be true.

Hmm. That's, that's, that's— so let me just say this, that I mean, personally, I really enjoy having this conversation with you. And of course, you are very conversational. And I think we— not I think, definitely we need to have one more. At least not one more, like we need to have this again. Because I can tell you the number of people that this will free from the chains that God didn't make is a lot. And I think God is not okay with his children being in bondage. And yeah, so it just makes sense. And I, I just want to thank you. Um, I know your schedule must be a lot, and to still make out time to come today and speak your mind, and with all of us at Declassified, and then we're so grateful, the crew and everyone, we're excited, and we just want to thank you. And this is a very rich conversation, it's one of the richest we've had. And I say now, I'm saying this in front of the camera, they're not the people have hosted here. And I say this, this in no small way. This is a very rich conversation. I just only pray that people have true eyes and they can see this. And where you have decided to put your own altar beyond the pulpit, I believe that's where we're going. The pulpit is just a factory place we put together, that we all should be out there like we are now doing this. I want to thank you for coming.

Thank you so much. It's been an honor. Thank you. Thank you.