WHAT DO WE DO WITH MEN'S VULNERABILITY?

If you don't have resources like you have now, will you be confident to lead your home like you're doing now?

One of the most devastating relationships I've had was a girl who told me 2 years before I asked her out, she knew I was her husband. And in her words, the day the relationship died was the day she visited the house I was staying.

A guy that's financially incapable will find it difficult to tell a woman, believe me. True.

Again, we also have to be honest about this perspective. The fact that many women really want to girl with a man, but there is a possibility that the prospect just— it doesn't convert.

Even the parents will ask— the first question they ask a girl if she comes home to stay out, what does he do for a living? Before, where is he from?

I remember sitting with my parents-in-law. My dad, being a pastor, asked me, what do you do for a living? And because I have experienced being looked down upon because of what I was doing, what I'm doing, I was quick to say I'm a pastor, and I just wanted to put that out so that in case, just let me know, if you don't want to release your daughter, this is what I do.

So that was me saying, just in case, if that's what you're going to say, I will drive out of this place.

You even had a car.

You were doing well. You were doing well.

Pastor was a big—

No, you were big.

Honestly, bro, you had a Camry now.

You had a Camry.

I couldn't dream of buying bicycle when you were riding a car now?

I didn't have a car.

I couldn't even—

this one make me feel like the dickhead.

You guys, all of them, they were big boys.

I've seen a lot, so I wasn't even going to impress anybody.

Build your ring back to you.

We will talk about that one.

We'll talk about that, but I want to establish—

I want to establish a point.

All the lies they told us is that men don't cry.

Yeah.

Men don't show emotions.

Yeah.

You know, men don't say it's not doable.

The kind of men we are seeing right now is as a result of the culture in the homes. Who is the father?

Dr. Femi Lazarus, again you have hit me.

Many of them are scared of becoming their fathers. I said it. I said it.

Did he hit you?

Yes.

4 of you.

Double punch.

When I was working, got to a time I used to say I never want to be like my father. It grew inside of me. I'll be walking on the road, on the street. I don't want to be like my father. I'll never be like my father. My father would tell me in the traffic to calm down. Just a little scratch, or maybe—

calm down, calm down.

I'll beat the driver. I'll beat the conductor.

People will be clapping for me.

He'll remove his Mr. Shoe. We'll be using it to knock the one on the floor on the head. My dad caused me pain. Ah no, my dad caused me pain, and we were like that.

Well, I'm interested in how your outcome is different than his. What influenced that?

If I had been like my father, I wouldn't have met my wife.

I have seen this pattern where men become so hard and so tough, and in the last days Their children are emotionally disconnected from them, and this is a matter that we need to talk about.

I honestly believe that the world doesn't care about men.

Do you feel that when a man is vulnerable, he's trampled upon? Is that what you say?

I strongly believe so, and I think there is just an agenda to reduce men, to emasculate them, to emasculate men, to make you sound insane for wanting to be a man or for demanding for the barest minimum. And here I'm talking about good men.

Hey guys, if you're watching this now, that means you have ears for intelligent conversations and this is exactly where you want to be. We have conversations that will get you at the edge of your seat and this particular one is one you don't want to miss. I, I have a very honest request from you as we start this conversation. I'd like for you to like this broadcast. That helps us to get this to as many people as possible. You know, we can work together getting intelligent conversations to people all over the world. And I'd like you to drop your comment. Let us know how you feel. Let's know how this has impacted you. And one thing you want to do also is to subscribe to this YouTube channel, as this will notify you whenever we're bringing up videos, um, podcasts, or any other kind of video that can be a blessing to your heart. I look forward to having you again and again on this show. Thank you so much. This is one of the most troubling question in my mind, and the reason why I've gathered all of us here, one of the most important question.

There's been a lot of conversation now, particularly about the fact that there is an increase in the scarcity of good men, particularly at the marriageable age. People are asking, what's happening to our men? Why don't they want to get married? And why is it that the ones that are marriable Askaaz. And I feel we need to get into this conversation ourselves because there are lots of insinuations and assumptions around this. And yeah, I want to start with you, Dr. Kwame. What's going on? What's happening? You are in Canada.

Yes.

And we have some of these problems more prevalent around those environments where you have amazing girls have their PhD doing good for themselves, but the guys are just not settling.

What's going on? It's actually something that, you know, bothers me, me too. And, um, of late I've been looking at how that plays out in other ethnic groups. Um, I'm not done with my observations yet, so I can't comment on that. But looking at our context, I think it's beyond, um, an individual thing. I think it's a societal thing. Yeah, and I will explain. There's this, um, unconscious expectations that, uh, we have about what a man is or who a man is or who men are or what men should be, what husbands should be. And by implicit bias, we have, um, we know that you can believe in an idea of what a man should be but you don't have to express it out loud. And I'm, I'm heading somewhere because I need to set that foundation so that we get it right. And this has formed a societal expectation of what the identity of a man should be.

Mhm.

Now this goes by saying, oh, men should be providers only, men should be strong, and all of that. And a young guy who is still trying to find his footing Um, he just finished school, he has not gotten a job yet, he's not comfortable, but the society has raised certain expectation that has been absorbed into the mind, and the mind has created that as his identity, that if you don't have this X amount of money, you are not worthy to be a husband.

So you say the guys are not getting married because they don't have—

they know, many— so it's part of— there are a lot of factors. Yeah, but it's part of it. The guy is looking at what is coming in and he's saying, this is not even enough for me.

Yeah.

And you can't even talk to your kind of spec as a lady because you don't have the money. She's going to look down on you. I went through that personally.

You went through it?

Yeah.

One of the most devastating relationships I've had was a girl who told me 2 years before I asked her out, she knew I was her husband. Ah, and in her words, the day the relationship died was the day she visited the house I was staying. Now this is me, this is me who is popular in my field, people know me as Onkwo Okpe, but my siblings were staying with me. I was living in a face me and face you kind of house, no chair, only rug.

Lagos.

Yeah, Lagos, right? And she came to that house and I told her, I'm not going to marry you into this house, obviously. Guess what? Because of that unconscious expectation, she did not speak that. All she was saying is, this guy is broke, man. And she told all her friends I was living fake life, right?

But this is me just building a vision.

Yeah. Right. And before I even had the boldness to ask her out, for the longest, I didn't see myself, yeah, settling down.

Yeah.

So that's one of the factors. That's, yeah, you know, unconscious expectation is part of it financially.

Yeah.

Because again, uh, we've created the identity that if you're not provider— I'm really hitting the financial aspect. Right, because we have other people who talk about other aspects. So if you don't see yourself as a provider, you feel less of a man. Yeah, that's where comparison now comes into place. You look at what your friends can afford, you can afford it, so why— what's the point? Why getting married and all of that? So that's one of it. Number 2, I will always speak about the issue of modeling. What have we modeled to the younger generation of what a way man is?

The mental picture.

The mental picture, the mental framework. Because people think fatherhood or being a husband is just to impregnate a girl, get her pregnant, and, and that's it. So some of those boys or some of those guys who are not who are not settled yet. This is based on interactions with some of them. They're actually getting husband's benefits too.

All right, so now you're moving into something really critical. I want Mr. Adinga to come in there. Do you feel the, the fact that guys are getting it free is also one of the reasons why they don't want to settle?

Well, um, so I think I'd, I'd like to address it this way. Um, this was— this never used to be the norm. Um, yeah, it never used to be the norm, so it's obvious that values have changed. Now, um, these days when ladies want to get married, the first thing that they look out for— financial status. Yeah. Now, when you put that first, you don't get— you can never get it right. I've seen it, I've experienced it, I've witnessed it, and I'll give you an instance. So, um, Maybe later go into, you know, history, but let me pick up this phase of my life. Um, I got married to my wife in 2019. Um, at that time she kept asking me, after we had picked the wedding date, are you sure this wedding will hold? It was like 2 months to the wedding. Are you sure this wedding will hold? 6 weeks to the wedding. Are you sure?

You know why?

Because things were not just in place, all checked.

No.

Wow. In fact, my, my best man and the groomsmen had finished their suits. I didn't have mine.

Are you serious?

Yes, I didn't have mine because I couldn't pay for it. Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.

Sorry, as the groom or as the groom's mom?

As the groom.

So I'll tell you, my suit and, um, the rest of what I was going to wear came in 1 AM on my wedding day.

What?

Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. I mean, we're here today. I mean, this is suit No, of course not.

Right, but she saw it that even though this guy didn't have—

wow, she believed it and she held on to it.

Wow.

You know, no woman holds on to it anymore now. So that is where we are missing it.

But in their defense, I must say this, that there are— I've seen some very good girls, church girls. Let me— because that's where you find Apostle.

Yeah, Apostle, you are You are our shepherd, we are the flock. The flock know themselves more than the shepherd. Okay, yes. The shepherd stands afar off. O Shepherdin, the flocks mingle. That's what the flock do, you know, they mingle, they see. And I tell you most sincerely, um, it's out of church. This is not— I'm not trying to be churchy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I asked my wife to be my wife, the first thing she told me, I don't know what you do, I don't know what you have done, but if I'm going to marry you, I'm going to have to ask God. God has to speak with me, so I'm going to go on a fast. If you like and you're serious about it, you can join me in the fast. And I'm not forcing you, but join me in the fast so that I can be fast. But I need to ask God and I need to hear from God. Apostle, I had never heard it before.

What?

I had never heard it before. So that's my second marriage. My first marriage, my late wife died of sickle cell.

Wow.

Now back then, that's why I said I was, I was going to go into history. Now back then, I didn't ask God. I just walked up to her and I said— and I was— so I had this— so it's all about your mentality also, because I used to think, oh, I was never good enough. Yes, I used to think I was never good enough. So when I asked my wife to get married to me that time, all she did was, oh, no problem, because she also didn't get right. To be fair on her, everything was in place for her. I did— nothing was in place for me. I was a welder. Wow. Yes, I was a welder at that time. I was a welder. I went, had my first degree, got another diploma. So my father almost disowned me because he felt I wasted money. So I, I had complex issues. I just felt marriage is not the next. I just woke up in the morning, there was no direction. But I knew that I had that thing inside of me, but it's hard to express. So a guy that's financially incapable will find it difficult to tell a woman, believe me.

True.

So I'm not— that's why I said we're not going to be churchy, we're going to be, you know, as it is. So we got into it and it never worked. For the 9 years I was in that marriage, I was a chef, I was a cook, I was a carer, I was everything, because you don't have money. You have to make it up some way. I was like a maid. So I have seen that side and I have seen this side. So long story cut short, I mean, we're here now. This is someone, you know, I got a second chance, which 95% of men would never get. 95 would never get. So I got a second chance. So I remembered where I was coming from. Yeah, I didn't ask God. Here's someone that is saying I have to ask God.

Wow.

So I went on that fast. Apostle, I saw God show me things before God showed her.

Wow.

I hadn't met her father-in-law. I saw her father-in-law during the fast. I saw, I saw a vision. I saw that there was something God wanted to use me for in the household. So it was, it was like, it was so plain. And I told her the day I met, the description I gave her, the way I saw the father-in-law was exactly the way he looked in real life when I met him eventually. Wow.

Wow.

Yes, sir.

There's a part of this conversation that I am, I'm becoming more concerned about— the journey from lack to abundance. Um, and I must say this, that many men are scared of the version of their wife they will get when they don't have. And, um, I, I think everyone here has had a fair share of bad days and good days. Let me say, um, second sleep. It's something we need to look into. What's going on, um, for men who are struggling, um, you know, trying to make ends meet, honestly doing everything they can, um, fear and some— I mean, fear of women. I mean, you know, I'm just saying random thoughts I've seen here and there, and the way men gets treated when they don't have enough. That sends that fear to the heart of young people that I don't want to be there. Sometimes because they saw their dad, saw an uncle, saw a friend go through that.

Yes. Yeah, I think if I could pick it up from where he started, the values have changed.

This is something everybody has been saying, you know, the values have changed.

Um, I met my wife, um, we're still in school.

Wow.

So I met her while we're in school and we agreed to, to be friends. So we're actually friends for 6 years.

Wow.

Before we decided to get married. And at the time we got married, I think I was just maybe— I was still— I wasn't up to my 30s then. So it means that I've just finished school, did my NYSC, got a job, you know. And I think one of the things for me was when I had a conversation with my father, I don't know if that um, still applies today, you know. And he said, young man, that if you can— if you are okay enough to feed one more mouth, I think it's okay to get married, you know. And of course, like I said, I started work, and it got to a time I just told her that, hey, can we get married? She said okay.

And we didn't do—

another thing again is this social media craze.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, so you want to do a wedding and you spend a fortune. Yeah, you go all out to borrow, and you know, so I have a finance background. Yeah, so I drew up a budget, and I knew what I earned. Then I think it was with my upfront that I planned my wedding. I didn't plan my wedding with anything I was expecting from someone.

Wow.

So we had our wedding and we got married. It was a beautiful experience because you were marrying your friend, you know, and I can't remember what she sees or how she sees me because there were other suitors coming. I was just a schoolboy. Wow. You know, but she believed that there was something this guy has, you know. And long story short, we built together, we grew together, and everything we became was because of that trust. That she had, you know. Yes, today, um, God rest her soul. But I think if you— if we go through the story of my life, you see her printed in every aspect of it, you know. So one, like I said, the values have changed. You want— you see a guy today, you want him to spend millions just for a wedding. I mean, go and check how much a wedding hall costs. Yeah, go and check how much a wedding, uh, event planner— yes, you know, you have to bring all that in. I'm not trying to spoil the jobs for these guys, but at least you should be able to know who you are, where you're coming from, where you're coming from. And I think for the ladies, they always see potentials in men. So trust your instinct and give it a try.

I mean, this is where I want to come in. It looks like we all seem to be agreeing that girls no longer see potentials.

Is that what we're saying? I think they see potentials. I think from kindergarten, girls are wired to see potentials, right? I remember one day I asked my wife and I said, because I was in my extra year when I proposed to her.

Yeah.

And I said, wait a minute, why did you agree to even marry me? She said, she said this to everybody, she said, well, um, I knew you were going to make it. And mind you, I didn't come from a poor home. I came from a, you know, standard middle-class family, but it wasn't like there was any sort of affluence or anything there. And like, I think we've all agreed, I think the values have actually really changed. I mean, I remember I was in a conversation with someone and I told them that my own mother sent my dad to school. Because she was in the school of nursing and it was the federal school of nursing as at then in Asia. So they gave them pocket money, and from the pocket money, or was it salary or whatever that she was getting from the school of nursing, then she was taking care of her 3 younger ones including my dad. And she would leave Asia and come to Ibadan in UI, of which she was the one paying my dad's school fees. She was the one giving that in pocket money. And it wasn't the era when you would have to transfer, you would actually have to move physically and bring the money. And then my dad said something to my brother and I. He said every single time that my mom brought money to him, and the following morning before she travels, he wish her cause one fight deliberately, provoke her, really, really press her buttons. Get her to say all sorts of things. You this guy, your wife too much, your wife too much. What have I said now? You know, you know the way my dad said. I wasn't listening to anything she was saying. I just wanted her to say one thing. You've got to interpret that. And what that means is, you this man, what else do you want me to do for you despite all I've been doing for you?

Did she say that?

She never did.

Why was he provoking her?

Because she wanted— she just wanted to hear. Because see, there are some things that if the heart is going to go blind, let's, let's, let's speed it up. Because there are some things that, that, that, that could be trauma. No, no, hold on. Now we are talking about why men don't get married. Now there are some, there are some things that you see and you run for your life. And most young men are not taught to understand these red lights. And like I was telling someone just before we started, I said, look, a lot of times men are told what they should want, but they're never told what they should never take. And so when they accept that on a platter, they just swallow everything hook, line, and sinker. And it takes people to say, look, this is poison right there. So if you have a woman bankrolling your entire life, and one day she's going to come back and say, look, I made you. Now that is an indicator, not really a determinant, but it's an indicator of something dangerous. And said, look, with everything I did for this woman, with all the stress I put her through, she never really recounted all the stuff she's done for me. Now that is something that we could go with. Now, and mind you, mind you, this is an era when whoever drops the money controls the narrative, and it's still like that.

But we know that that ought not to be so, and that's why I want to ask this question. I want to start from Mr. Banka. If you don't have resources like you have now, will you be confident to lead your home like you're doing now?

So, um, again, I'd like to reiterate that it's a mentality thing. Um, so growing up, I grew up in the midst of friends that, um, when they do things that are untoward, when they do things that are not right, and I'm like, because you don't have money. Yes, that's what they say, because I don't have money.

Life.

So because we were the same, that, that's something serious there.

It looks like the moment a man has money, he can get old many times.

So I proved them wrong.

So when I started having, yes, it changed from that to, we will take money from—

because your money is not much.

Yes.

So I think, and I still say, and I want to believe that even if I never had, I still don't have enough right now at this time. What I know is what I know. What I hear resonates in my spirit, and that is what comes out from my belly outside. And I'll give you the instance. So I told you, when 2019, when I got married, we didn't have, you know, 2020 came COVID. Yeah, that was the worst year, worst part of my life. I was just, I just got married. I remember that, um, When my wife got pregnant, there was this $100 somebody gave us, and I, you know, we were broke, and I said, ah, she said, never. And that was the first issue we had in my home.

$100.

It was a real fight. And I said, ah, you're pregnant, it's been about 8, 10 weeks now, you've not started antenatal.

$100, have a pillow, why you putting it under your pillow?

What is that?

Bring it.

He said, no, um, I'm not financially prudent, I'm this, I'm— and I said Ah, if I had, you know that I love you, I would have registered during this thing.

Wow.

Anyways, we registered at 14 weeks.

14 weeks?

Yes.

In fact, one doctor told me that, ah, didn't you people plan it? Did you know you're going to get pregnant? Why were you not saving? And so he looked at me like I was, I was irresponsible.

14 weeks.

14 weeks. So I looked at the doctor, or do me— I usually don't get hurt with words because I know who I am. So I just said, sorry, but can we split this payment? Even if you abuse us till tomorrow, I can't give you full payment. So even the $100, I just split it. I took out of it. I didn't pay full because there are other things to do. Fast forward, um, we paid and that was it. But by the time we started raising kids and we went back to the hospital, I made a down payment of about ₦3 million. I said they should hold it.

Same doctor, same man, same doctor, and same you.

It was something I wanted to create. I was trying to preach to him I was trying to correct his mindset. His mindset. And that sorted it. So like I said, during that COVID year, so something happened that I really want to share it. May, no, March. So sometime around March, the governor locked down all the markets and said that they wanted to curtail the spread and all of that. March 19th, thereabout, you know, they made an announcement that same day and they said markets were going to shut down. So we were staying in the 6-flat, tenement property, and everybody rushed to the market, we're buying things. I didn't have— I couldn't boast of a thousand plus. I didn't have.

During lockdown?

Yeah, during lockdown.

Wow.

Yeah, during lockdown. So I mean, my wife saw that I was troubled. There was nothing at home. She was pregnant. So I saw people, you know, I was staying in the middle floor, um, so I had a neighbor upstairs. He drove in, into my hands. I was looking at him, his children were packing things, garri, rice, yam. So I wanted to say, of blessed memories, the guy passed. So I wanted to say, can you— something just hit me in my spirit. No, I'm sorry to say this in Yoruba, but I don't remember how to say it in English.

There's a scripture I really love Children of lions do suffer needs and then lack good things, but those who trust in the Lord, yes sir, we don't lack any.

Yes sir. So I did not. If we're going to go hungry, let's go hungry, but to beg, no, not food. So she came to me and she said, I have this 20,000 that I had saved.

That's your wife?

Yes, my wife. Can I bring it? I said, 20,000?

Sorry, I said I kept $100.

Yes, I said, you, you have 20,000 in this house? Ah, I said, bring it, please bring it. She brought it, went to the market together. But refused. They said, take pure water. And she said something, said, nobody will know, we will not die, buy pure water, don't buy dispenser water again. If you have guests, we will pour it into jug, they will not know. Let's—

we will not die.

Said, my mom taught me something. Femi Lazarus. Say, we buy ground pepper. We buy. So they used to sell one fish, they call it ukuéku. They used to roll, dried one, they roll it like this. They were selling it 6 for ₦500 at that time. If you buy 2 sets, they give you extra. So we went, we bought, we bought, just tear it inside, just tear it, shred it so that it palm oil. We said nothing will happen to us. And so we started, we bought 20,000 finished. That was when we started eating twice a day.

So we cut it.

So in the morning we drink dairy with whatever, then in the evening, like 4 PM, we take the ebba. My brothers, we survived. Now, and that takes me back to our first question. Yes, I don't see And I'm sorry, I stand to be corrected. Yeah, I don't see that happening in today's marriages. And here's where I'm going, and I'm going to— I'm going to just pause now. After a while, same COVID, I sold— so different things. Ah, also I sold different things. I sold spray gun, I sold nose mask during COVID I went into nose mask where we brought tailors. I just got innovative, and I didn't know she was looking at me. Because even recently she still mentioned those events and said, ah, Okomi, you are a hard worker, my husband.

Because she remembered.

Yeah, but you know, again, we also have to be honest about this perspective. The fact that many women really want to endure with a man, but there is a possibility that the prospect just— it doesn't convert.

Yeah, Apostle, even the parents will ask. Do you know what the parents ask now? The first, the first question they ask a girl if she comes home to say, what does he do for a living? Before, where is he from? Before, used to be, where is he from?

Where's parents?

And those were those days, but now, what does he do?

I remember sitting with my parents-in-law, um, with my wife. He hid in between the both of them. The dad, being a pastor, asked me, what do you do for a living? And because I have experienced being looked down upon because of what I was doing, what I'm doing, I always speak with— I have a pastor, and I just wanted to put that out so that in case, just let me know If you don't want to release your daughter, this is what I do.

So that was me saying, just in case, let's cut this whole thing.

I went there with the notion that, okay, all right, what's the worst you say? We'll just never meet again, all right? If that's what you're going to say, I'll drive out of this place.

Our message will never deliver.

You even had a car?

You were doing well.

My first car, my first car, I snatched it from my younger brother. Oh yes, I snatched my first car, it was a Nissan Micra, 1.2-liter engine.

Say wait, say same thing Ibadan Micra?

No, Ibadan is 4 doors, my Micra was 2 doors.

It was a mini Micra.

Yeah, it was a mini Micra. Max, maximum maybe 15-liter.

I think things have changed quite a little bit. Before I got married, I was using a Toyota Camry. Yeah, uh, Mosu. I think he said, uh, was a big—

no, you, you were, you were honestly, you were a big boy. And I just want to divert— yes, I want to divert it.

You had the Camry now.

You had the Camry.

I couldn't dream of bicycle when you were riding a car now.

I didn't have a car.

I couldn't even dream of—

make me feel like the big—

you guys, all of them, they were big boys. Don't put my own, don't put my own. I didn't have a car when I got married.

But you were making—

I had a company.

Yeah, it was a big—

so I was actually earning more than them.

I had more than the amount I told them I had.

I told them this is my income, but I had more than that.

Oh, they asked for your income? Oh yes. Then what are we still flogging?

They even came to check my house.

So what are we still flogging, Apostle?

I will look at it like this, like Maybe they just want to be sure that the capacity of the person taking the advert—

but the capacity is not in the present, the capacity is in the future.

So that's, that's why I want to say what I want to say, because when I approached my, uh, wife then, um—

were you not in America then?

No, I was in Nigeria.

Agege?

No, no, no, I was in Agege.

No, I was in Bega when I— you know that apartment?

Yes, it was—

you're in Bega? I was in beggar. My apartment was facing the gutter, right? That's why you couldn't visit.

I'll look for that picture.

Please get the picture. Now, I was staying with my two brothers. We had a foam on the floor in that same self-con— they call it self-contained because the house can contain everything. There was a key. It was a container. There was a kitchen, there was a bathroom, right? And myself and my wife, we did a video call, so she saw everything. And I asked her, um, if I can't travel out, will you come down tonight? Because I've seen a lot, so I wasn't even going to impress anybody.

Build your ring back to you.

Yeah, we'll talk about that one.

We'll talk about that. I want to establish a point.

I want to establish a point. She said she— yeah, that she's going to come back to Nigeria. Yeah. Now, what influence that was parenting? Ah, that's what I'm heading for.

And she was in Canada?

She was in Canada at the time. It was— I was shocked when she said that. I asked, how old are you again? Because you can't see that mindset. It was rare to find that mindset for a lady of my age.

I know your wife like I know her now.

She meant it.

You get my point? It was parenting. And what killed it for me was when I met her mom. My goodness, because a fruit does not fall far from its tree.

Yeah.

So the address are not to judge anyone by the seeing of the eye, correct? So the question she was asking me was getting to know me for who I am. She wasn't asking for what you do. Okay, she knows what I do, I mentor teenagers and all of that.

She was just asking, she just wanted to know my person.

Yeah.

And for the longest I didn't find that.

Wow.

So we have a few crop of individuals who have been raised with a different set of values, albeit the percentage is few.

Very, very few.

My father-in-law never asked me what I was doing. Of course, the mom would have told him, oh, I was just a PhD student at the time when I met my father-in-law, you know, how much is a PhD student earning in the US stipends? But he agreed for us to plan our wedding because I told them I want to marry in 3 months. Then he asked Femi Lazarus, you want to marry in 3 months?

Yeah. Do you have money for the wedding?

You know, but you guys can go ahead, plan. We did the wedding, you know. So I just wanted to put it out there in their defense. And again, over time, some good— because I, I work with young people a lot— some ladies have believed in a guy, invested in the guy, the guy makes it and turns around.

Yeah, and that, that's, that's a matter too.

And that's a matter too. We, we shouldn't, we shouldn't deny the fact that that exists.

Yeah.

So, and when things like that happen, it models behavior. So that's why I talked about implicit bias, that you believe in a certain thing but you act something else.

Yeah.

And, and I, I think ladies have be quite exposed to, you know, a population of guys who are all dreams and no actions. Yeah, I have this idea, I have this idea, I have this business idea, plenty talk, I have this idea, and the girl is really going to wait it out.

No, no, no, you are hitting me with that punch. No, no, no, no, no, you are hitting me with that punch.

I feel, I feel I have, I have people like that that have come in contact with ever since I've known them. That's how you are good now. Ah, shebi, $100 later come to $3 million advance payment, and you're able to drop it. You're able to drop it. That's how you're good. There are people, there are people that I know, right? And these are people that, respectfully, my father's age, my mother's age, we grew up with their kids. Daddy is always having one next business venture. That never picks, right? It's like this acrimonious battery. I think the only thing that— Tyler Perry's movie, the only thing that justified at the end of the day was the guy's battery did eventually pick. Now, if that battery never picked, it was not unfair or unjust for the lady to walk away because there are some guys that it's just always a get quick escape. And I tell people, and I said, look, the desire for greatness doesn't automatically manifest it. Now there are people, there are young men who actually sincerely desire greatness, but they lack the genetic material to actually push it through.

And also the environment.

And there are ladies who can sense this a mile off, right? And some of them might even believe in his ambition. I've had a guy try to rope me or enroll me into his, you know, you know the way university students always have different organizations. And this guy came to me, came through a lady. Apostle, you know this person. Came through a lady and then just said, hey, Mr. Yemi, um, I have this mentor of mine that wants to meet you. I didn't know they were dating. I have this mentor of mine that wants to meet you. And then I met with the guy, and the guy stood shoulder tall, looking down at me, tall, very handsome guy. And I was looking at him, he said, well, I don't want people to know I'm on OAU because everybody wants to see me. So we are working on this, um, organization. It's going to be the biggest organization ever. Bishop David Oyedepo knows about us. Um, this guy Kenneth Copeland knows about us. And then, and then later I got to understand that they know about us, that this guy was talking about was that he was in a conference where he rose up and introduced himself and mentioned the name of the organization. That's how they know about us. The guy was saying, I've researched you and you know, you look like you came highly recommended and you look like somebody that we should give a chance to be a part of us. I mean, and I've been observing you from a while, so, uh, you go and you will hear from me. I went back to UJCM, Femi Lazarus sharing testimony that, you don't know he's observing you. And eventually I just looked at the— I just said telling me even check this guy out. Like he said, he said they want to build 200 hostels across 50 universities. I'm telling you.

Wow.

So in my mind I felt like I'm part of something big, very big. And then I just said let me even research this guy. I put his name on Google, nothing came out. Ah, I now saw like 3 Facebook posts. I now clicked on the Facebook post. The current picture was looking like a throwback picture. He took pictures with some poorly dressed girls in one uncompleted building church with cloth and ribbon as the decoration. It didn't match. What I found didn't match. And I'm like, then let me try again. Then the graphics design was poorly designed. I'm just like, no, this is, this is, this is a scam. Was highly charismatic, very handsome, very good looking, well put together. I, I, I chop the bobo, and then I ran away from him. And I thought maybe, maybe— and I told him, and I told my friend, and I said, I don't have a problem if someone is pitching, they are pitching their ambitions to me, but don't come and present yourself to me as if you are bigger than you already are. Now that's a problem. If you're telling me, by the grace of God, we are hoping that this thing is going to become this, and we are building now, and I want you to be of it because I believe we can build together.

Sweet.

Fast forward, we went to eat at that place we usually go to eat when we were in Ibadan, and then I saw him, and then I said, ah, man of God, how are you? He said, I'm doing great, I'm doing great. How is this person? How is this person? Fine. And how is that project? Yeah, we are working on it. This was 8 years after.

Oh, they're still working on it?

We're working on it. And we honestly We were about to pay. He was about to pay for his food. I had paid for mine. And then when he brought out the card, it was the girl's card.

Okay, I think now I know the guy.

He's been to my office, so yeah, you're welcome.

All right, so girls can see that. So it does not look like the girl is a shadow of herself. So any— in, in, in If that girl did not marry him, she would have been like, with all my dreams, with all my ambitions, she doesn't believe in me because I don't have now.

So now we are agreeing that many ladies have what they've seen, which makes it more difficult for them to just go with dreams that they are not seeing anything on ground that can translate. Now that brings me to the next conversation, which is helping our boys become men. This is a different world. Social media age, so much pressure, so many things. And, um, which is one of the things I've seen that you, you do so well. I see the way you handle your boys, um, and I, I must say this, that the kind of affection and connection that I see you have with them healed my heart when I saw that. Now, to set the record straight, I have a dad that till tomorrow, if we stand in front of each other, he still wants to help me break my pimple. That's the kind of person that he is.

Sir, again, sir. Oh yes, he wants, he wants to help break my pimples.

Oh, okay.

And all that. It's, it can be that, you know. But now I'm talking in respect to leadership, mentoring boys, helping boys get their priorities right. We've got to say something about that. Yes.

I think to, to a large extent, one of the things I, I found out is that when there's love in a relationship, when there's love between the husband and the wife, it translates to the children, you know.

Wow.

For me, the amazing thing is, for the better part of while we're married, I worked outside home. So I wasn't physically around, but I was present in their lives, you know, because of how their mom paid attention to everything that they do, you know. So it means that I work my 9 to 5, when I'm home, the remaining time till sleep time, I engage with them. We do our homework, we do assignments. When she has challenges, she reports to Daddy, we do the discipline and that. And For those period, I always come home fortnightly, you know. So I mean, it was an 8-hour trip, I'll drive, you know. But every fortnight for the number of years I worked, I come home. And when I come home, all the other things that Daddy needed to deal with when he wasn't around, that he dealt with them.

Wow.

You know, and because of the respect and love my wife had for me, that translates, you know. So one, how do you treat your wife?

Yeah.

How do they see you treat their mother? Yeah, what lesson? Because for, for boys, they watch you, they want to model after you.

Yeah.

And all of that. And so that sticks for us, you know. So when I became available, you know, I had to— I mean, everything had to fill into that space of the mom and the dad. One of the conversations we had was, look guys, that is a disciplinarian, but God will give him grace to act the mom and the dad. So we joke most times, and they'll say, no, maybe you should show the mom part, you know. And so that's how we do. And for everything, I think one of the lies they told us is that men don't cry. Yeah, men don't show emotions. Yeah, you know, men don't say it's not doable, you know. Those were some of the things. I mean, they've seen me cry.

That's you showing them vulnerability.

Yes, they've seen me cry. They gather around me and cry, and we all cry. They ask for things, and I said Not today. Even when I can afford it, I'll say not today. We have, you know, we have templates for doing anything. We don't do impulse. So if you want to do anything, you must plan ahead. You must tell Daddy ahead, and Daddy will plan. You know, we don't go out and you don't throw tantrums because you were not raised that way. So for each of them, they learn discipline. You learn that if you need to go out in a week's time, you tell Daddy today, you know, when nothing is sudden.

Yeah.

So when you come up today and say I have an event today. I'm sorry, we can't do that. You know, it's just to— it's not because they couldn't go, but because you have to learn discipline here, you know. So most times we're vulnerable to each other, you know, and they know that part, and that has helped us to navigate, you know, the, you know, the, the season you know, when we found ourselves. So for me, basically, I think love is one of the key things, you know, because if that hasn't been there, you know, when there'll be a divide between mom and dad, you know. And that's one of the things I think we should prioritize. If you love your wife, you reflect on the children. Yeah, that's a key thing to, to pick up from.

What—

because I'm a big proponent of the culture of the home parenting, um, a home that has shown that it is weakness for a boy to— for men to show vulnerability, that it's not okay for, um, a man to cry. As a boy saying that, because Children don't do what you say, they do what they see you do. Yeah, right. So when you create that kind of atmosphere, that boy grows to become a man who keeps to himself, tries to solve his problem by himself, is alone. He does not want to show his vulnerability, and the people around him feels he's fine because he never talks about his problem. He thinks he's okay. And that idea has reinforced another kind of mind, the identity of a man that, oh, men should be strong. So that's why we have this masculine toxicity now.

Yeah, because you're going—

masculine, yes, because you're going through a lot but you cannot shed it out. So what you've done is you blending responsibility with humanity, and that's what I think we need to imbibe in the culture of our homes today. The kind of men we are seeing right now is as a result of the culture in the homes. Who is the father? I'm interested to knowing how the dynamic plays out between you and your dad.

Yeah, do you understand?

Because you can't do beyond what you know, you can't do beyond what you're exposed to.

Dog, dog, man.

Dog, dog, man.

Femi Lazarus. Again, you have hit me.

I know, before I hit you, I mean, when you went there, you know, because we started from why don't men, young men of now, just want to get married. And I think one of the things that occurred to me is many of them are scared of becoming their fathers. Hey, I said it, I said it.

Did he hit you?

Yes, I think many men are scared of becoming their fathers because whether consciously or unconsciously, um, young boys idolize their dad. Their dad.

Yeah.

I mean, I think one of, um, the most striking conversations I've had with my 4-year-old son— it was 4 at the time—

was—

we were driving to my office and, you know, it was their career day the following week or something, and we were supposed to get a costume for him. And then I just asked him, because we drove past the supermarket, and I said, Toba, what do you want to become when you grow up? And then he said, I want to become Femi Lazarus. He was 4. I cried. I cried. I cried because my dad was a lecturer, as a teacher, and growing up looking at how he taught, and they asked me, Femi, what do you want to be? I say, I want to be a teacher. And everybody, because teachers, how much were they earning then? Everybody be like, no, be a doctor, be a, be a— but I think what encouraged me to keep saying I wanted to be a teacher when I grew up is I think I realized how satisfied, how happy, yeah, my father looks every time I make that statement. And I didn't understand that look.

Wow.

Until my son said, I want to become Yemi Kings. He didn't say I want to become a photographer. He said I want to become Yemi Kings. That's it.

Wow.

And it messed me up. Because it was an assurance of coming at that time, like, I'm doing something right. Yeah, yeah. And it was— it came at a time when a lot was not going right. And so when, when I looked at my 4-year-old boy doing his lollipop, licking it, and he said it so mindlessly, so casually, and I had to begin the following week Maybe he would have jumped on it, but he knew of it. He said, I want to become Yemi Kids. And I said, you will become better, you become better than me. And so I feel that many men struggle because when they get married, then they have to activate the kind of fatherhood that they have learned, and they are scared of who might show up. Is it that— will who they want to be show up, or who they don't want to be? Because sometimes we secretly become what we hate. Wow, true.

Is it? Wait a minute.

Yeah, wait a minute, wait a minute. So I have a different perspective, and, um, I'd like to share it from the root. So, um, my parents have 7 kids. I've got 4 older sisters, then 2 younger brothers, so I'm the first boy. Uh, reason to hate me number 1. So among my siblings, I was, um, I wasn't loved. Growing up, I was in love because I always wanted to show superiority as the first son. I'll beat up my 4 sisters, put them on the ground, then I'll be— so those days were days of Mighty Eagle, Mew Mascara, uh, Bruno Brothers, or Kogan. Before Kogan, I'm talking about WWE. So there were those My Tigo and Ajetinapo, you know, so I'll use them to do practice.

My goodness.

Yes, then I will now sit down, I'll wait for my mom to come back, I'll be breathing hard like, yes, the lion of the tribe of Judah. You know, that created enmity between us at a tender age because they would never allow. I would eat and I would tell my mom I want Shade's food. I throw away everything until they give me Shade's food. Yes, but now we all grown now. But can it wipe off? Not entirely. Then we now had the father that sow the enmity intentionally amongst us. Divide and rule. My father is going to be 80.

7.

This is true.

My father—

so I grew up in an abusive home, and this is where I'm going. But I didn't mirror my father.

Why?

Not because it was intentional. Maybe God just loved me, because if I had mirrored my father, so Um, I'm a boxer, by the way.

Mighty go, mighty go.

So I trained, so I'm a boxer. Um, at some point I did karate, I did judo.

Like fight like this?

Don't worry, don't worry, I receive what sound good they do.

So at that time I wasn't training, I wasn't doing all those things because I wasn't doing it for leisure. I was doing it because of what I was seeing in the home.

Hmm.

Right.

My father was a civil servant, did so well, rose to be Director, Minister of Finance in Lagos. But you would not see it in my home. When you hear my father honking at the gate, 7 of us. You cannot be sleeping. You will file out from number 1. You hear the 7. Welcome, Daddy. Welcome. And I'm very serious. Whoever is missing, you hear.

Don't fall. What were you doing?

Do you know I was coming? Like, what?

Yaida?

That's your mother?

Yes, it's your mother. How come you are not complete?

You know, that kind of, you know. So where—

military man?

He wasn't. He wasn't a— I just told you my father was a civil servant. He had a double barrel and he had two kobokos. One had 6 heads, the other one I think 3. And I remembered one event that was so still very clear like this. My sister was coming back from our shop. Well, Dad's office, we had an office around. So she was coming back and a Suto accompanied her home.

Ah, and from, from her account, she said she kept telling him, Suto, padao, go back, Suto, go back, Suto, go back. Did she eventually marry Suto?

No, no, she couldn't have married Suto because Suto was this trousers sagging, you know. So he came home, they came. I open the gate, I open the pedestrian gate. It's still very clear in my head. I open the pedestrian gate, she came in with Shu. I was shocked. About the time Daddy will come back, are you okay? The guy came in, and it was about that time my dad came, as if they were— he was trailing them, I don't know. So my dad came in, walked, saw the guy, locked the pedestrian gate, locked the main gate, and went inside. And there was this babo, this curly babo. Ah, I would have helped the guy, but I could not because there was no how he could have escaped. My dad came out with a double barrel, came out with the Told the guy to lie down, flog the guy. The guy climbed the street light pole to the top. My dad carried double barrel, cocked it, raised it to the guy. The guy jumped down from top and he still fired it.

What?

I'm telling you. So that was the kind of house I grew up from. So, so My father, my father had disowned the firstborn before. My father had disowned me before. I think I said it. Good. He will chase you out. Where are you coming from? 10 o'clock, go back to where you're coming from. And that's it.

Better my way.

And that's the end. I've seen my parents fight countless times. I'm not talking of small. So somebody served my dad with a mug. Aunty Christy. I still remember Aunty Christy. My dad was coming back from church. Was he going to go to church in the evening?

So he said, Christy, follow me. And Aunty Christy brought the mug.

You know, in those days we didn't have this kind of mug. It was big, like glass mug. The water wasn't cold enough. With the water and the mug, my dad stoned Aunty Christy from afar. Missed her by whiskers. The thing hits the wall and it sharpens, tore Antichrist's eye here till now. Well, if Antichrist is still alive, because I know the last time I saw her in naked, she still had that mark. That was my dad. So, so that's why I said I think God loved me in the sense that When I was walking, got to a time I used to say I never want to be like my father. It grew inside of me. I'd be walking on the road, on the street, I don't want to be like my father, I'll never be like my father. My father would tell me in the traffic to calm down. Ah, I'll beat the driver.

Somebody hit the car, come down, just a little scratch, or maybe come down, beat the person, beat the driver, I'll beat the conductor, people will be clapping for me.

My daddy will remove— they used to call one shoe Mister Designer, Mister, that time he will remove his Mister shoe, will be using it to knock the one on the floor on the head. And we were like that. This Femi fight that in No, my dad, no. Life has happened to him. So when I say life has happened, he's still— I'm believing that he receives Christ before he dies, but he's still that strong-willed but now soft man. So I— he didn't like the fact that I, I didn't become a doctor or pharmacist like he wanted. Used to tell me the engineering, he didn't want me to do it, but he gave us one thing, education. And for that, I owe him. Yeah, but for what he did to my mom, all that he did to us, that caused me pain. I know my dad caused me pain, but that told me, and I'm saying it Like I'm saying it because it's the truth. My dad told me that when my late wife died and I was still grieving because I stopped begging him for money— at that time I was begging him for money because I didn't have— my dad now told me that I'm beginning to have small, small change that I've gone to use her head for ritual. Didn't stop in the house, went to the village to tell them, to tell the king of our village, anywhere they see me She labeled me as a ritualist, told all the family members that that was what I did. Oh my father, my father, who you just described, and looking at you— oh, one more thing, my mom clocked 60, so I came home from NYC.

60, 50, 60.

I came home from NYC, from Zamfara, to come and celebrate my mom. He didn't want us to come, wanted to ridicule her 50th. How many children will not be complete?

I came, traveled down.

I was supposed to go on a Monday, he said I must leave on a Sunday. Daddy, party was Saturday, I will go on Monday. My dad wrote with his official letterhead as the Director of Ministry of Finance to NYSC Corps Commander. Ah, this, this, this, this, this, this, dereliction of duty and abscondment from national service. Wrote petition, 2 pages, sent it to Abuja. When I got there, I lost my— of course I lost my salary. I was supposed to be punished. Somebody now asked me, ah, that, wait, are you sure this man is your father that wrote this letter? Because they summoned me to Gusau.

From, you know how that place is, I traveled, I was moving round, round, round.

He just took joy in giving us pain. And it wasn't just for me. Everybody from number 1 to 7. And guess what? There was a time I was very pained and I went to him. Was a New Year's Day. And I said that, Kini mo shé Femi. And I laid down, said, for anything you think I must have done to you, I apologize, forgive me. I searched, searched. I didn't understand why he was doing it, so I had to ask him. You know what he told me?

Eh, I'm the only one that can do it.

If I say it in Ka— what, what, what can you do?

Well, I'm interested in how your outcome is different than his. What influenced that?

That's why I said I cannot explain. That's why I said maybe God just loved me. Do you have any male figure So my case is a peculiar case. I think, you know, Apostle, if you remember, I told you once, I said, I don't want to start the conversation because if I start the conversation, I said, my story is long. But if I had been like my father, I wouldn't have met my wife. So I did something one day, and that's where you see that, um, sorry, Apostle, you do this for me again. I don't know that one.

There's a particular vegetable beside the dung hill. There's no how you wash it to smell like—

smell of dung, and people eat it.

Yeah.

Oh yes, yes. Oh yes, there's a part that eats it. So when I was cutting this, my wife, we were around Isolo, uh, I think it was Limka. Yes, yes, around that place, Las Botec, that bridge. And I just felt this okara hit us a bit, ah, I just came down.

Beat the driver! Now, something that's, uh, something that had been a culture years ago.

Now you think you're born again, now, yeah, over it. I looked at the guy, I wanted to just remove the key. I threw it away. Then he struggled with me with the okada on top. Apostle, I'm not proud to say this, I took the front, took the back, lifted the guy up like this.

Mighty God!

Apostle, Apostle, no, no, no, but I'm not like that.

Beat the heaven and hell out of him.

I just threw the okada away. I still remember the picture very well. My wife was—

my wife, she was shocked.

She was looking at the mirror like this. She was looking at the mirror like this. So when I got down—

thank you, thank you, wifey, for marrying him.

If you would marry me, you will stop behaving like an animal.

Wow.

That's— those were her words. If you would marry me, wow, you would stop behaving like an animal. And she got down.

Wow.

And we didn't complete that trip together. I came down, I wanted to apologize. If you touch me, I will call the police on you.

Now imagine the police come. So I went back, I went back into the car.

Yeah.

And really, even in the traffic, there was a lot of traffic, like we're already in it like 2 hours. Anger management was what I didn't have. That was what was missing. I was already angry, we're in the traffic 2 hours, I didn't know how to manage anger. Guess what? Now So guess what? Now when I'm angry, I am quiet. I am as meek. I, I'll just look up, I'll just look at you and I'll just blank out.

You know, there's this scene I wanted to share in that direction. I once saw one of, uh, Big Daddy's. For some reasons, I just met myself in the scene. He asked his son to prepare you know him. The boy made the eba. I didn't know what it tasted, but I knew he told the boy, come, kneel down. He said he packed the eba, he was rolling it. He said, if I should stone you with this eba, his head, he said, if it hits the head and open back, it means you are a very stupid boy. You want to kill me? Then he said if he should plaster on his face, then it is too soft. So I thought he was not going to be so petty, you know, to do that. Then he rolled the thing really and stoned the boy. Now it was not just the eba that fell, the boy fell too. So yeah, I saw that.

The eba, it is eba fell, boy too fell.

But now I've seen this pattern where men become so hard and so tough, and in the last days their children are emotionally disconnected from them. And this is a matter that we need to talk about. You know, there's this— they say, um, women will say, don't worry, your daddy will deal with you. And the daddy too comes and is doing things that is separating the kids from him emotionally. And that's the reason why at certain age many children don't want to have anything in many places. And I've seen therapy sessions and all that, don't want to have anything to do with their dad.

Yes, I know sisters of mine that have blocked my dad.

Not even that, it will shock you, Apostle. Um, so there is this course that we teach and you have social work students and psychology students take that course. It's about adult development. So towards the end of the course, we take them to care homes. We don't have them here in Nigeria, but you know, where you have adults. One of the things I observed was you have women stay in shared wards and no man was in a shared ward. They were all in single rooms. That is one. Then I asked the social worker who was taking us on the tour, So tell me the family dynamics of everybody. So he said something, he said the women would have their family come around, children, grandchildren come around once in a while, but only a few— I think he mentioned 2% of men would have their kids and grandkids come around. So what he was saying is the men are alone.

Wow.

And the population of that particular care home, no Blacks, were all Caucasians, um, Indigenous Canadians and all that. And it struck me because I used to think it's maybe our tradition as Africans and all of that, but observing people from— that's why it's still a journey for me, still an observational research that I'm doing. I think there's more to this. There's a narrative that has been sold that has now affect the personal factor of men, of the male gender, and invariably affect our behavior. And the society has now picked that as the ideal way of what a man should be. And guess what?

Women—

statistics have shown that women report cases of anxiety and depression, mental health issues, mental health issues. Now men don't— we don't see that. Again, that's a problem. It's not that it does not— it is not more in men.

So you need to explain this, doctor. You need to explain this because this is the reality. This is my case.

So because of how the society has wired us to think about men, men keep to themselves. They don't share their struggles, so they don't report their cases of depression and anxiety problems. But we have women—

they don't even know because they don't even know.

So women report more of those cases But what we've seen in research is that men— we have men die more of suicide than women. So the disconnect in that data is as a result of the narrative that has been sold. Men don't do this, men don't cry, men— so when women come out to say, oh, the society is not serving them, the society— that same society is unjust to men too in certain ways.

You feel so?

Yeah, look, look, when we look at this wiring, it's been, it's been there from childhood. I mean, growing up in the boarding school that I went to, you can never toast a girl successfully and she will say yes. If they beat you on assembly ground, you cry.

Are you joking?

Where are we?

Where are we?

Where are we now?

You are toasting me. You like, I cannot even toast Mr. King. You are toasting me.

Wow.

How do you know? They say that guy is a big boy. Woman does take back, go.

And when they beat him, they beat him because he's a macho man.

And then, you know, so it starts getting ingrained inside the head of the young male man that showing weakness is— no, no, no, no, no— is anti-manliness. And we have women who have openly said to me that the day I saw him cry was the day I lost respect for him.

Wow.

And it goes back prehistorically. In the Yoruba race, they will tell you we must never see the king cry. It's not because— it's not a taboo because the gods will be angry, but he we have put in a position of authority must never exercise vulnerability, which is bad, which is bad. And so it's, it's, it's, it's a cycle where that mindset is instilled in the ladies, the girls, the women, and then is also in turn instilled in the men. So we don't know who started it. Is it the women or the man? Which came first, the egg or the chicken? But what I know is this: many ladies now, bringing it to now, cannot— and I strongly believe so— cannot handle the vulnerability of a man. And it's not their fault. I don't think, I don't think it's their fault. Many, many, many— I don't know, Daddy, I don't know how it was in your time, but now serious thumbs down is a turn-off.

Could that be the reason why many boys are attracted to women that reminds them of their mom? Because a woman, a mother in the life of a son, has demonstrated that role of that person that can bear the vulnerability.

I think so, I think so. And coming from the things you shared, sir, in psychology we were trained to understand two things carefully. When you're raised in a particular environment You can either become a reflection of that very environment, or you become a total opposite of that environment. Whether you were raised in a bad or good environment, you can either mirror it or deflect from it totally. Now, what causes the reflection or the deflection, we will leave it to the professor. To do his paper on that. But I, I read an article and they said there was a particular drunk, drunkard who drinks to stupor and falls in the gutter, and then they beat him up, and then his life is just messed up like that. And he has a twin brother who's doing well in his field, top of his industry. And when they asked this drunk son that, why are you like this? He said, is my father, he was a drunkard. He would send me to buy drinks, he would share the drinks with me. He exposed me to alcohol and I became like that. So forgive me, but this is all I've known to be as a man. And then they asked the twin brother too. He said, why are you this successful? He said, my father. He said, how come? He said, my father was a drunkard. Will send me and my brother alcohol. He wouldn't mind to share with us at a young age, and he will sleep and fall in gutter, and everybody will be picking him up. And I said, I will never become like this.

Same situation, different orientation.

Wow.

So you not turning out like your dad was a— was something in you that switched at a point. And, and he is there, he's there. And I, I, my, you know my father. Yeah, he, he's a disciplinarian. And I think the two of them were drilling me this morning about a decision that I made that they were not cool with, that they felt I should have taken a stronger stand. And for me, and I, it got me thinking in my office, and I said, why do I take some things my father would never, you know. And I realized that, you see, when it comes to what we select, what we pick, what we mirror, as at the time we are picking it subconsciously or consciously, we don't even know which is right or wrong. My dad is Voltron, is the sweetest kindest, loving man ever. He is the lion and the lamb. So people fight on who he is. You say Mr. Okoye is a terrorist. They say no, Mr. Okoye, that man is a clown, he's a joke, he's a very funny person. Are we talking about the same person? Because you come, you talk nonsense, it will— that nonsense will not finish dropping out of your mouth He will not give it to you. He first start from 7 generations behind you and then now get back to you. And then he can be the most best person ever. So my brother and I grew up seeing it. My dad will change it for you in 5 seconds. You talked about your dad. My dad didn't have a double barrel. Oh, but my dad can, my dad can beat you to death and beat you back to life. And we grew up seeing that, and we grew up seeing him take care of our mom too. We grew up— if you want to die, eat what my dad said is for his wife, you're dead.

Wow.

My dad will say, no child can come between my wife and I. If we are in the house, my dad will yab my mom, this, bangs, joke, everything. But let somebody outside try it. No, that person is dead. Everybody knows you are dead.

Wow.

You don't touch his wife, you don't touch his kids. He will do the discipline. And I remember a day I stole money. My pocket money was ₦2, my brother's was ₦3, so both of us were taking ₦5 to school. Yeah, they can relate. And the thing entered me, and I took ₦5 from— because my mom has this small store that she sells medicine as a nurse. People come buy paracetamol and all. So we were exposed to money fast so that we konijo oloju, so it doesn't— we see money as normal. So we handle the, we handle the store. So I just took money. You know, a child will be curious. Yeah, I've never stole, let me just steal and see.

What will happen.

So I stole the money successfully and I kept it in my food flask. She said, when you steal, you keep quiet.

Yeah.

And I took the, the, the, the food plate and outside doing like this to my brother, his egg that is inside, I will now show you. And my dad is a no-nonsense lecturer in Oshun College. And if you misbehave, the first thing he remind you is, I have your type at home, my children don't misbehave. So students of his were in our house that Sunday. Anybody misbehaving in the church is a pastor, he will say, look, look, look, look, sit down, sit down, my children don't misbehave, you sit down. Church members were in the house that day, that Sunday where everybody just comes to visit. So my brother and I were dragging it in the room, bring it. No, no, no, I know it's 3 years older than me, he needs no egg because if he's egg, it will begin gorong gorong gorong gorong gorong. But this dude is doing— so he snatched it from me, opened it, and saw $5 new notes. He said, give me your money, give me your money! And then my brother— my dad just shouted. He said, what's happening there? My brother said it in Yoruba. I have not forgiven him till now.

He said, School.

Like, the whole battle in the sitting room just died.

Wow.

Everybody just went quiet. And my dad, let's continue the conversation. Awkward. My mom's cousin was there whose last child was older than my elder brother, and then, you know, everybody just started removing their One by one, they know that you're dead. Yeah, no, no, no. So my dad called me, he said, come here, lie down flat there. And he was there as well. So I took off my clothes, took off my pants, naked I laid down there. And when he saw that the conversation was not conversating, he stood up. I cannot forget, I'm still traumatized to this day. That Binatone rechargeable lamp that used to do— that red piece— put the red Binatone picture up here like this. He took the cable, how he beat me.

And I remember something he was saying while he was beating—

he beat me because my dad came from a very poor background. They used him to follow new wife at the age of 4, and he left home at the age of 9 to go and hustle. He hustled all his way to the university till he now landed with my mom who was paying his school fees. He served and served and served men. He said, so as he was flogging me, he said, he said it in Yoruba, he said, and he was crying.

You want to interpret that?

He said, you cannot steal, you cannot steal, my son cannot steal, my child cannot steal. Despite all the suffering I suffered, I did not steal. You cannot steal, you cannot steal. He was flogging me. Water was ghouling from his eyes, from his nose, from his mouth. And then my mom's cousin who was there now wanted to come and bail me. My dad left me facing I swear to God, my dad left me facing— left me here facing— his own daughter was there, whipped him for like 2 minutes. Let me correct my child, don't ruin me.

What?

He beat him, he went back to his own child. My dad now faced his own child again. I can't steal. He beat me, he cried, we were both crying, he cried. Sir, to date I've never taken anything that is mine.

That is not yours.

But that's what is lacking.

Call it, sir, call it toxic. Nowadays they will say it's toxic, it's child abuse, it's kid— see, that's discipline.

Discipline.

Now, yes, I said that to say that Now it doesn't mean the man doesn't have his excesses. There are times he goes completely off and it's obvious to everybody that that is wrong. And sometimes he would apologize, sometimes he will not. But because we were kids, we thought that this man is tough. He's creating too much an hostile environment. He comes home, everybody is, you know, the moment his car shows up in the junction, the boys are saying, "Opa Taiwo, your daddy is coming, your daddy is coming." We run into the house. And I'm just like, we don't enjoy this man, we don't want to be like him.

Yeah.

And my mom is a softer person, and my brother and I, I think at the point we said we're never going to be that angry fashion. And that's why before, before anybody can see me angry, don't ask. If you see me angry Me, Femi Lazarus, if you see me angry, don't ask what the other person did. This is at fault. And I think you have known me for 20 years. When I'm angry, it doesn't come close to me because you've taken me to a place where I never want to go.

Yeah.

And I think I think because I don't want to go there, I took a lot of shit. Yeah, because I, I, I didn't want to be this person that sets boundaries. I didn't want to be this person that that treated rubbish aggressively. I didn't want to be this person that made people feel uncomfortable. I didn't draw boundaries, I didn't set principles, and so for years I was taken for granted. So now you understand why I ate.

Yeah, yeah, that's deep.

So I didn't know I just didn't want to be that monster, so I didn't know when to be that monster. Yeah, because that's why one of the issues my servant Apostle had when we were living together, when he was raising his men, his boys who are men now. So while he's drilling them, Pastor Joseph— and these are men that have grown up now to handle thoughts.

Yeah.

Because at the end, he can live in Nigeria now and travel to Kenya and travel around the world. But when he was raising them, me, I felt like you are reminding me too much of— so I'll be cracking jokes, I'll be cracking jokes to try and just calm the situation down because I thought they were going to all leave him. No, they didn't leave. One is in Kenya, one is in Port Harcourt. All of them are scattered around the world.

And they doing—

you know the balance, you know the balance.

That's the balance. Yeah. And for me At the point, I now had to come back to him to say, look, there has to be— what I didn't want to be was to be the lion, but I've come to understand that as a shepherd guarding your flock, yeah, you have to be that lion and the lamb. So I think that's why I said sometimes you grow up seeing some things, we don't want to be it, we want to be it. But I want to, like a journalist say, I put it to you that there are some things that you probably have gotten from your dad that has protected you.

Some things you, you don't like but you need.

You need it.

Yeah, that's probably protected you.

You have daughters?

No.

You have sons?

I have 3 boys.

Now I don't think anybody can mess with your sons.

I know.

So I think, I think the selective— the, the, the— I think the word I want to coin now is deliberate selective inheritance, where we look at a retrospectively toxic nature I will say, because I, I say to people, my mom, sweetest gem in the world, my dad, craziest guy ever. And I tell people, I say, look, if my brother and I were raised only by our dad, would have run away from home. Because after that beating that day, man, that's why I say about the dad and the mom, after that beating that day, my mom did not even say anything. She just took me, and I remember it was wrong She just was rubbing rub all over my body and gave me food, and I went to sleep. And that conversation was never had again. And so if it were to only be my dad that raised us as sons, we would have run away from home. Me and my brother agree on that. A long time ago. And if it were to only be my mom that raised us with her soft, gentle— my mom beat me once with vegetable leaf. If my mom wants to beat you, sir, she say, hey, do this, boy. That's how that she beat you. She'll be pressing your body like massaging. You will not, you will not kill me. If you annoy me, I'll say something in your life. That's for you. If it's that woman that raised me and my brother, Ayo, what's my baje? Would have been very, very unfortunate bastards. But the balance—

how do we then, how do we, but how do we get that balance now?

You said it all, Apostle, you said it. So it's, it's love and discipline at the same time. If you watch my boys and I, we— I've, I've always loved to be present. I always want to be present. Yeah. And, um, That was why when I was going to take the appointment in December 2023, I had to come see the environment. I didn't say I was taking it like that. In fact, I didn't sign until around July.

Wow.

Oh yes, wow.

Because I wanted to study the environment. Apostle, I had to go and carry my family from Lagos, told them to come to Abuja.

Wow.

I was looking for a church, that was the first thing, and I wasn't comfortable with any church.

Wow.

Until the day I came—

I'd gone to like 2, 3 churches. I'll just do one service, I say I'm not going back, go to another one another Sunday. Until I came to that, our former church.

Yeah.

Not the one in Zone 3, oh no, no, that one, the tank.

That was the place. Yeah, givenry.

Yes.

Yeah.

That was the tent. I came to that tent and I remember that I now came to the tent and I saw a signboard that said they were no more there. Yeah, I think I went to Lagos, came back, they had made the announcement. It was the banner I saw. I said, no, I'm going to that place there they are now. And I went and I— because I believe that, and this is where the solution is, what you hear consistently forms you. That is what I have— I mean, I, I, I had Pastor Sam Adeyemi teach me my early days. From there, I mentored under Pastor Lumi Day Emmanuel, who approved eventually when I told him that, that, you have seen a church, I need to say which one. I mentioned your name, said, ah, my children, but I just feel that you people that I have nurtured, wow, I have bred, wow, I have poured my spirit to, but with this that you have mentioned, I release you.

And he did the same for us.

Wow.

No, Pastor Moodey will not release you. You can't just leave the church.

Mentioning his name, I can see his—

like, I can—

there's a resemblance.

So if till today, if he comes to Abuja, my wife and I would go. He would tell us he's around, he's in so-so place. We go just, you know, you know, because you have to keep hearing that word.

Yeah.

And our boys need to start hearing that word. They need to keep hearing that word. Our daughters need to keep hearing that word.

You know why?

When they reach that marriageable age— so that, I mean, I'm coming back to why we're here— when they get to that marriageable age, they will remember those words will speak. I didn't go to— wasn't from church I heard, don't box your wife even though you're a boxer, you know. So yesterday when we're leaving, when we left church, we were in the car, and as usual, what did you learn? My children will ask us, you two, what did you learn?

We share.

Ask me, I said, ah, amu yo te riwa ka jari ja. These children have never seen us argue before. It's not like we don't have differing views, but because of what she hears, what I hear, what we both hear, there are ways we can just, you know. So those children are learning, even though we might think they are not. They are learning. My children don't shout at each other.

I had an experience, you know, um, growing up. I remember vividly I was in SS1. You know, this was a conversation that changed my perspective about boy, girl, and all that. There's a particular girl in my class I realized I was liking. It was just something out of the ordinary. We still time together just to be on our own. We, we leave school, we leave the class, you know, but I enjoy her presence. And I went home one day and I told my dad, this girl in my class—

my dad, SS1, SS1.

Yeah, my dad knew my girlfriend in SS1, you know.

You know, my dad knew my girlfriend, you know, because Wow, you know what this— you know, if you don't have these conversations, you know, I think maybe I would have turned out differently. And he said, oh, it means you're becoming a man.

Wow.

And he said, let's take a walk, you know. And he said, you know that there's— the moment you start feeling like this, it actually means that you're growing, you know. And that's the way you are supposed to act when you're with the opposite sex, you know. And he said, if you go all the way My dad was a military man, so I grew up in the barracks. And if you have ever been in the barracks, you know the different shades of a barracks. And he said, do you see that lady? She's pregnant, right? You see that one? Said, you know what, what do you think you feel? Is love. You know, if you go all the way, you get her pregnant. So what that means is that she's going to have a child and you are going to be a father, and two fathers can't stay in the house. So it means that you will have to go get your house and begin to care for her. The implication of that is you may have to leave school to fend for her. She will have to drop out from school to be able to, to carry that baby to term. And if you can't fend for her that love that you think you felt for each other will turn to hate, you know. And he gave me, I think then there was this book by Walter Tropics or so, Love is a Feeling to Be Learned. To Be Learned. There's another book, I Love the Girl. So he gave me those two books, you know, and the experience I got from there, I told myself that until I leave school or until I was in my final year, I wasn't going to have anything to do with a girl. So at that stage, that set the tone for the kind of relationship I had. So I had very wonderful relationship with the opposite sex, you know, and I met my wife. The day I saw— I've told myself, you know, the day I'll see my wife, oh no. And something just— and she was the first person I told I love you.

Hi.

You know, so what set the tone for me was that conversation. If I had not had that conversation with my dad, absolutely, you know. So we should create environments where we can talk to our kids. I told my kids, I said, whatever happened Come home. It doesn't matter what it is. I'm your dad first before anything else.

Come home.

You know, create that environment where we can be vulnerable. Create that environment where you can Allow them talk to you. It doesn't matter what it is, hear them out, you know. And when that happens, it helps to guide your perspective, it helps to realign some of the things, you know, because if they can't speak to you, they'll speak to someone else.

Can I ask how, how the daughter is Sorry, how old is your daughter?

Okay, my daughter is 11.

Okay, um, with the things you've taught her, I can boldly say that when she gets to a marriageable age, say maybe 21, 22, if you continue like this, God help you. You don't need to teach her don't judge a book by its cover. That's what we're saying.

So sorry to interrupt, that's what we're saying. We were having a conversation before this podcast started and You just— he just repeated what I said to him.

Yeah, Apostle, that's the solution.

Yeah, it's parenting. Because what do you do with parents? Parenting is modeling. Yeah, yeah, you are actually shaping. In the scriptures it says, train up a child in the way he should go, when he's old he will not depart from it. That is modeling right there. Yeah, even if the child is distracted you know, by peer influence and all of that. It's like a magnetic influence.

This is not who I am.

There's a possibility of him coming back to that possibility that you've created for, for the child. And that's why parenting is no joke. But who are the parents now? You see a 19-year-old girl getting pregnant for a 21-year-old Yahoo boy who doesn't know anything about parenting, doesn't know anything about influence, doesn't know anything about leadership.

What do you expect to do? Parents who need to know about parenting are giving birth to children.

You have a bunch of nuisance out there.

But there's also a contrasting view. I mean, I just remembered now, I just remembered now, while yours, your story was out of training that your dad instilled in you, which you in turn are instilling into your children, mine was born out of fear. Fear for my dad. Fear for my dad.

My dad was a disciplinarian. He was, you know, my dad was a military man, and trust me, you don't want to know. He talked to you? Oh yeah, I was very close to him, you know, and we just like you. When my dad is coming, everybody sits up.

But he never spoke with me, he never had that conversation.

So now when my dad—

how many times I've gone to Lagos and I don't go to see him? I said for 10 years, almost 10 years, I didn't see my father.

That's one thing we should correct.

That's what I'm saying.

So let me tell you, forgive him. Yeah, and I'm saying the truth.

Until I forgave him, until I let him—

guess what? It was until then it was endless.

Do you know what my wife told me when we had conversation about this? So, you know, it gets to a point that you are the only one in the house. Your son has given birth, is in the UK, the other one is in Canada. And she begins to move, and she said something, say, look guys, told my kids, if you can sponsor my husband and I to come for this, count me out. One of the things that we also don't take notice of is how the women relate to the children, because like you said You, you know, I know for sure it happens. You're the one breaking your back, paying school fees, making sure that the house runs. The children don't know. All they see is the mother Yeah, they want school fees, she brings it. They want a book, she go tell Daddy, Daddy supplies. They don't know.

I thought so.

The only thing they know—

what I tell myself is that a man being a leader is like a foundation.

Yeah.

And the foundation is designed to be strong and hidden, but it must carry. So I just let my wife do all this stuff. I do my part.

No, no, no.

The thing is this, one of the things that happen when school fees is paid, my wife say, oh, thank you, Daddy. Go and tell your mom, thank you.

Yeah, my wife does that.

She has paid the school fees. When you need anything, even when she does it, she say, oh, Daddy just sent some money now. You're going out tomorrow?

Okay.

You're going to see a movie? Okay. Daddy just sent some money. So Daddy is present.

Wow.

You know, so what we see, or what is modeled now, it's, it's seen as if the woman is doing everything. So there should be a balance where these things are discussed. So now she's no longer here. So when we're about to do any projects, you know, we told ourselves, hey guys, no holds barred, everything full disclosure, you know. So you want to do XYZ, oh, we can't afford it now, can we plan for another 2, 3 months, you know. So these things are things The children should know that, look, Daddy is providing.

Daddy is providing. I think to add to what you both were going back and forth, I mean, when you were talking and looking at how soft-spoken you were, and I'm like, he's raised by a military man, looking at Mighty Eagle, raised by a civilian, and then he was asking you some questions that, and you were saying, my dad is a military man. And it furthermore revealed something to me about my brother and I.

He knows my brother.

My brother is a very soft natured. I think, yeah, ever— I think my dad can count on his left hand how many times he ever had to spank my other brother. We're two different kids. Yeah, right, we were two different kids. And if my brother— my brother and my dad, they have a lot of Conversations. We talk a lot till date. My dad and I had a lot of confrontations because I'm the one that is more like him.

Yeah.

So he has seen a tendency of himself in me that he was going to uproot by fire.

By fire. There's that too.

Yeah, there was that. So we were too much alike, and to date we don't agree on many things, but when we agree, no body can undo what we've agreed on. And growing up as kids, if my dad brought something home— and why I'm saying that is because of the two kind of parents and the two kind of children that, in quote, that you both were. Different kids, man. My first son is different from my second son.

Yeah.

And if my dad was going to get us to do something He would call my brother and just instruct him, "Tayo, this new flower vase, make sure you don't touch it or go near it." Or this new TV, or the TV for instance, you know, "Don't go near it, don't switch it on until I get back. It's different from the old one. Don't touch the TV." He says it only once. In the same conversation, he called both of us. He say, you, you, if, if you are a true son, if they born you, if they born you well, thank you. If they born you well, in fact, because I know as long as I go, you are going to turn it. The man just come, we saying it yesterday now. Before we didn't know, he used to know. Come, we just sit down. We got to figure out that he used to touch the head of the— yes, put ice, open the freezer, frozen fufu, frozen air bar, frozen yam, frozen stew, cool it. If he's watching this podcast, that's how we know for the first time. Drag it. Like, he will not do like his magic that it's just you that will touch this. And then he will beat me and he want beat my brother more. That you are the elder one. If your brother is executing foolishness, you should be man enough to correct him. And I feel that We've had a lot of conversations on how boys have been raised into manhood. I sincerely feel honestly that it's only fair that we say it, and I stand corrected, but I honestly believe that the world doesn't care about men. I am a firm believer of that. I think that growing up, you were taught how to handle a girl, how to handle your emotions, don't get her pregnant. Um, we were growing up, we had girls, um, we, you know, boys would be told be a gentleman, open the door, do this, this is how to talk to a lady, this is how to do this, and I don't see anywhere— it might exist— where girls are being deliberately raised on how to treat men. On Valentine's Day, let's look at it. It is all about getting the gift for the woman, buy the flowers, buy the chocolates, do this, do that. Let's look at the global calendar. Is Mother's Day 50 times a year? Is Father's Day once a month? This is June. I can bet that the average viewer of this podcast does not even know that this month, the entirety of this month, is dedicated to men's mental health. Nobody's saying anything about it. Men are committing suicide every day. Men are imprisoned every day. I saw a clip last month. The guy parked his Lexus on Third Milan Bridge with his two phones and his power bank there and jumped into Third Milan with the car running. Thank God a fisherman was there. They saved him and he had to cover his face from being recorded. I don't think the world cares about men. If they say men open up, men talk, men do this, I don't think they are ready to listen.

Do you feel that when a man is vulnerable, he's trampled upon? Is that what you say?

I strongly believe so.

Oh, that's what they should all believe.

I mean, the world is not fair to men. Let's be honest. And I'm not talking about— forgive my language— I'm not talking about stupid or foolish men. I'm talking about good men. Because let's just put it out there, bad men exist. Yeah, yeah, poorly raised men exist. Yeah, demons exist, but that— we are not here gathered to represent that population. We're talking about good men. Yeah, I think good men carry a lot unseen, uncelebrated. I feel it's unfair.

Why?

Because we talk about it a lot, but it's, it's a reflection of how the world system is. We talk about it that there is no song celebrating men. So many songs celebrating the girl, so many songs celebrating the lady, so many songs to woo the man, to woo the woman.

Maybe my next point of observation will be women are more expressive. They make it clear they want to be loved and celebrated. Could it be that men are not saying it? So men are not You say passive, that's weak.

You say, you say it, you say it, and you are misogynistic. They've used less that word. Any small thing a man takes a stand is controlling. A man says, I don't want to take this bullshit from you, patriarchal society. And I think there is just an agenda to reduce men, and that's the whole conversation, to emasculate them, to emasculate men. To make you sound insane for wanting to be a man or for demanding for the barest minimum. And here I'm talking about good men. Yeah, the conversation revolves around good men.

And sorry to, sorry to interrupt you, that is why I think for men, safe relationships is not luxury, it's a necessity.

Yeah, it is.

Oh yes, you did something, maybe you're not aware, maybe you will remember The moment his voice began to be amplified, and unconsciously maybe we just pulled back saying, oh, nah, our friend and brother is, you know, is well known now, and we sort of pull back. He called us and said, the topic is not what you guys think it is. I need you guys. And I think our relationship blossomed from that conversation. I don't know if you remember. See, men would have colleagues at work, associates, acquaintances. Yeah, you don't even need to know the name of— ah, Chief Baba, Chairman, Twale, Alpha, you know, no real conversation, no safe relationships, no safe space to exhale. There are several conversations we have in our corner that I think makes us feel sane, even him.

Oh yes, but as a man, you can't give what you don't have. If you've not been given a safe space, you don't know how to give one. It takes breaking away from the, the, the downhill ride to say, look, whether you're coming from a toxic, um, fatherhood system or a gentle fatherhood system, it takes you really, really grinding your knees and pumping the brakes to say, look, I'm going to get this done. I'm going to create a safe space, the safe space I never had.

Yeah, so I'm speaking in terms of relationship as brotherhood now.

You need brothers.

You need brothers.

So excuse me to say something. Yes, sir. Um, just a few things. So there are a few things I remembered when he was speaking. Um, 2017, July, I almost committed suicide.

Wow.

Um, was something— I mean, I wouldn't have said it, but, um, what he said struck me greatly, and I thought it would be good if I shared it. Um, at that time, I was I was owing 11 months rent. I was staying in Egbeda at that time, and I hadn't also paid my son's school fees, and it was getting to exam period. So I was, I was scattered. Back then, this is what I used to do. I didn't have a job. I had resigned without getting another replacement. I just wanted to leave what I was doing. I felt I had worked enough for the Lebanese. So at that time, I had finished Four Points by Sheraton in Oniru, and we had also— I'd also finished Eko Convention Center because they brought down Ocean View, that the one with the marquee. Back then. So I felt, okay, I'm going to resign. I couldn't cope with the ₦50,000 salary at that time. Lebanese will use you and mess you up.

Oh yes, they will.

And the Saturdays you don't go, at the end of the day, instead of ₦50,000, they might give you ₦42,000, you know. So I just felt, no, let me just— so I resigned and I started working as a plumber. So if I'm on site Plumber, asa. I go do plumbing work and that was it. So I couldn't pay school fees and I was worried. I couldn't pay 11 months rent. So when I'm going out, my landlord was staying on the wing, his kitchen window opened to my own side. I will come down and I'll close the door gently, bend low, my head down so that they don't see me from the window.

It's giving a feminine, right?

So they don't see me from the window and I'll go out. And I was like that for months. So I just felt one day, um, my late wife was going to work, so, um, I said I wasn't going because I searched my phone. So every morning I searched through my phone and I'm scrolling through my address, my contact, looking for where I could take ₦1,000 from. So I used to borrow ₦1,000 every day.

Borrow?

Yes.

Ah, so you don't have money and you are still in debt?

No, just give me. I ask for ₦1,000. Can you spare me ₦1,000, please? I need to. And I was doing it consistently, consistently. I had a son in school, um, I'd buy fuel. From the ₦1,000, um, I'll share the ₦1,000, I buy food, take some to make sure I buy food for my son. I had a spot in Mr. Big's Agidingbi where I resumed to every morning. I had a seat, I had a permanent seat that I'll sit on while the boy is in school. I'll sit there, call comes for plumbing work, I go and do the plumbing work, come back there. Because I have to pick up my son. I have to wait for my late wife to finish at 5 PM, 6 PM, sometimes 7 PM. I don't mind, I don't have a job. They were my job. Yes. So one day I didn't get that money, so I just told mother I wasn't going out. So I let her go. She had this, um, official— this staff of theirs that stays around that takes her once in a while. So they were going, and that one said, ah, she just called me. The moment she called me, I knew because there was no fear. Ah, I picked up the call and said, if you would not— if you cannot take care of me as your wife, you should at least consider the son you brought to this world. That broke me, that crushed me, that mangled me.

So was that said in Yoruba?

No, said in English. Okay, it's better. In Yoruba, ah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. In my head, a lot of things came to my mind.

There's a way, there's a way Yoruba will just— it will affect your mind That language is deep.

I was, I was crushed. I was, I was, I was disturbed. I was scattered. And we used to have sniper in the house, so I was like, kidimu mi shigo. So I stood, I start alone, doors closed, and I start for about 10, 15 minutes. I was just crying, I was crying, I was crying. So I stood up, I went to the store. Took out the sniper and took a sharp knife. So I looked at the knife, I kept pumping like this to the knife. It's too sharp.

Yes.

So I said, this one, you just bleed out. I looked at the door again before they opened the door, so I put the knife down. I took the sniper. This one is better now. So I pulled it. Daddy, that's why I said my case is peculiar. So I'm not— I don't— nobody should model me or say, say, I know was peculiar because at that point, if I hadn't heard Jeremiah 29:11, I would have been dead. So if I'm going to talk to anybody, I use the scripture a a lot, and I could, I could take like 50 sermons out of it.

Can you quote it?

I know this one: For my thoughts towards you are thoughts of good and not of evil, thoughts of goodness and not of bad, thoughts of abundance and not of scarcity, thoughts of life and not of death. Do you get it?

So I had a hope.

And I had respite from that scripture. So the sniper just fell from my hands and it was pouring on the floor. And it was pouring on the floor, I just kept saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." I wasn't strong in the spirit, not like I was. No, God just loved me.

And guess what?

He knew what would happen 5 years from now, 5 years from then.

He knew.

But because we are not God, we do not know. And that is why we think whatever we are having, whatever we're experiencing, whatever we're going through is out of God's hate or God's disregard or God's lackadaisical nature towards us.

No.

Yeah, if God had made it happen before when he made it happen, I could have been dead. Yeah, I give you a story of Dagrin in those days. The same car he prayed for, wished for, killed him. Yeah, less than 2 months after he bought it. Do you understand? Into the fame, he died at the prime. So whatever I need And that's from this scripture. That's why I said you could bring out like 50 sermons. So whatever I need part-time is what God has given my family and I.

Let me ask you a question. At this point where you were suicidal, how long did it take your wife to notice?

No, she didn't notice because she wasn't— she wasn't—

how long did— how long did it take before she ever got to know that this happened?

Or did she she even ever gets to know?

No, so, so, so that was one secret I kept from her before she passed.

So she never knew? She never knew, sir.

She never knew.

And a lot of men are like that. He's not good, he's unfair. Men are going through a lot.

Apostle died in the church.

See, men are going through— see, nobody cares. Men are dying. Some men are dead, walking corpses. Nobody knows. No, no place to— no hand to say, well, men— some men are dead. And as long as they keep providing for the family, everywhere, as long as they are functional, Everywhere good.

Everywhere good.

Men, some men are in their homes, they are in their houses and they are missing home.

Apostle, I'll take a pair of jeans, I'll be searching it, taking it out one by one. You know what I'm looking for?

Money.

₦20.

My God, ₦20. Not to eat, sir, not to eat, to make, to buy biscuit for my son the next morning. Wow, I'm searching for it now today, looking for it. 29, 29, 29. The one that I stumbled on, 250,000. Wow, you stumbled on 250,000 naira? Where? Inside an abandoned ba— where Job kept.

In your house?

In my house.

Belong to his wife, of course.

Yes, my late wife.

Ah, hey!

Ah, oga sit.

I remember it was wrapped in GT Bank, was wrapped in GT Bank, um, bondo, was wrapped in GT Bank bondo. And you know, I took it, I first dropped it, I went to the sitting room, I sat for a while, then I went back to it to see that, to be sure it was still there, then I took out of it I had taken foodstuffs on credit that if I have to pass, I'll leave this way, I'll leave this road, take another route so that that one does not see me buy foodstuffs somewhere just to make sure family kept on going. And I was holding out. I just believed it would be well, it would be well. And this is how men roam about. Yeah, even till now.

Who do you see at newspaper stand in Lagos those times?

Is men, they are jobless.

But they needed to leave their house to form a facade that I have office at home.

They needed to get busy. They needed to get busy. Some men, some men go to offices just to escape the homes they have built. It's not every man that you see, um, some men are happy for traffic because it just gives them time. It just gives them time. It just gives them time to just be away from whoever or whatever it is that is waiting for them at the other side of, of that traffic. Some men are given the most effective, most outstanding staff of the month. Some men are given awards for being the most punctual at the office, not because they care about the job but they can't wait to get away from home because home is hell. Because home is hell. Some men have nowhere else to go. I, I, I strongly have a burden for good men. Now, even the bad men, whatever definition that is, still need a place to find redemption. Yeah, and I, I strongly believe that the world over time has been unfair to men.

True.

And I feel that it is a culture that is being passed down from generation to generation to generation. I remember my father calling myself and my brother when we started making some money, and he was trying to tell us one or two things that you guys must know. We told him, we told him expressly, Daddy, calm down. You are a good man. We will take care of you. If you want to start policing our finances now, that means you do not have confidence in the training that you have given us. You were tough, but you were good, unlike his own father who didn't take care of him. But we saw him take care of him despite that. And when my grandmother died, my grandfather resuscitated her without any medical training because he was scared that if this mama dies, this woman will not take care of me.

So they will not look back.

So it wasn't until my mom told him that, Baba, if mama wants to go, let mama go. We will take care of you. Mama left after 3 months. Baba followed after 3 days. He was not sure. See, let me explain to you what— let me see, we, we're talking about men, and I like the fact that this conversation has been transgenerational. You've talked about your father, everybody here has talked about their father. My grandfather was— he had 6 boys. And I know all my uncles, tough dudes, but he will go and go to his garage. He was a mechanic, he was a driver, he was a man of integrity. If he made ₦7, he will spend ₦6, eat good food. Follow me, eat good food, wear good clothes, and he will bring ₦1 home. For the wife and the remaining 6 children follow. Don't be talking to George. And then the children grew up seeing their father not provide, and grandma had to work, had to work, had to work. So there was no love in the home, there was no love between the father and mother, so there was even no love between the siblings. Still To date, my uncles don't see eye to eye, all 6 of them. Maybe so, it's seasonal, they rotate among themselves. So this one will be this guy's party for 4 years, and then this one will do one party, and then they will switch. And so there's always— they are always borrowing from clubs, and so there's no love amongst them. But this is it. So imagine how they grew up like that. And so when Mama died and they brought Mama to my dad's house because he built a house for them in the village and he lived closest. As they were fighting over burial arrangements, they were fighting. My father just looked at my grandfather, said, interpret it. He said, can you see your life? Can you see what you've done? Can you see how you've raised us? The one that was even good to us, see how we cannot get ourselves to even give her a befitting end? We will give her, but look at how disorganized it is. Now imagine what it will be for you. We kept telling you.

That's why he went 3 days after?

No, no, no, he died that night. In that dynasty.

Wow.

And all the children agreed, it's for the best, because everybody was certain that the next war was going to be who was going to take care of him. And if none of them did, my father would have, because he has been— and let me tell you, my father told us, he said, this man I owe him ₦63 in my life and I paid him back. He collected it. He said I took his shoe from maybe Otariba to Ibadan in UI. This man came from the village to come and collect the shoe. So my father will say I owe my father nothing.

That's hurt.

And now Because we are talking generations, we are talking traits. He took it back. My father will now say, 'Onla, there is— he only has one saving grace.' He said, 'My father only has one saving grace, and that is in the one-bedroom apartment, one room.' that we were all in, because they would not pay the rent, they'll kick them out, but Grandpa will get another house for all 8 of them within the next 24 hours. So he doesn't pay rent, he doesn't pay rent, he will move, he will move in, and then he will keep posting the landlord, we will pay, we will pay, we will pay, we will pay, until they kick them out, he will get another house the following day. So until my father hacked how he was doing it, So it's always a face me, I face you. I know in every face me, I face you, there is always one room that is close to the latrine. Yeah, nobody wants that one. So that's the— that's the room. So Grandpa will always go and collect the one. So it's an empty room that everybody wants to give out, so they rather give it out on credit. So the moment they kick him out of here, he will quickly go and look for the next one. So they were all— they lived through the latrines.

Wow.

So it was in that room that a friend of his now came to come and visit him. My father is still alive now, can verify the story. He said, Babu, my father was the first child of 6 boys, all boys. He said, Babu, they talk, they talk, they talk very early in the morning. He said, you have 6 boys. And my dad said he slept close to his dad's leg. Yeah, he said, he's your first son, use him for money.

Ah, wow, your dad is the first son?

Yes.

He said, aren't you tired of this poverty? You have 6 boys. See this one, Femi Lazarus, your first child, use him for money. They were talking. My grandfather sent the friend out. And then my dad had— my grandfather did not know that my father had this until after 47 years or so. When Grandpa was doing it, he wants the same money that they are giving. My grandpa, Daddy, calm down. You only have one saving grace, you didn't take care of any child. And he said, this is the saving grace. He came to the house and he told you to use me for money rituals. I heard how you sent him out. And for weeks, for months, my father was observing my grandfather. He was not following him anywhere. Wow, no, no, Daddy, I want to take, eat, share with his younger brothers. I think until he truly saw that, that the cost was clear, and he said, if it is for this one thing— wow, because no, no, no, no lie, the poverty was too much, was a lot. When they gave— for you to have an idea about how much the poverty was, when they gave birth to my dad My mom, my grandmom could not lactate.

Wow.

They had to give my dad to his own grandmother.

Wow.

To breastfeed. It was a practice then. And then she started lactating because she had raised children, so the breast was used to. Wow. So it was my great-grandmother that, that breastfed my dad. They used to, from the back of the room, pass gali to my grandmother.

Wow.

And my grandfather never stole.

Wow.

And he didn't do rituals. So my father would say, for this one thing, you have that. So when he was about to start projecting on us, we had to tell him, no, no, no, no, no, you are not your father.

Relax, we'll take care.

Relax, we'll take care of you.

I, I, I think—

but I want to establish something.

And this is like an appeal to, um, spaces where ideologies are shaped, like religious centers, media spaces. Uh, take it easy on men. There's this part of the scripture that people misinterpret because you read things out of your own bias. A man who cannot provide for his home is worse than an infidel. That is wrong. That is not the Bible. Go read it again. I won't be the one to— well, Apostle is here, maybe he will do that work. That is not what that part of the Bible is saying. So you now have girls who are looking for, uh, poverty escape scheme in marriage and using that as a filter to marry.

So when they marry, they put the pressure on the man. So the man is not even comfortable enough to share his failures with his wife that you are joined with. So you can trust a man with your body, you can't trust him with your money?

You don't have a marriage, you have a poverty elevation scheme.

And that's the reason why I want to request for something very important to possibly close this on this high note. So that we can have a part 2.

Sure.

I mean, and I, I, I know it's been a lot to get. I don't, I don't think, I don't know when next I can have the 4 of you, this opportunity in one place like this.

It's always a great pleasure. Yeah, it's always a pleasure. There's so much, there's so much. So I noticed that, you know, as we talk, I remember, I remember a lot.

I'm just remembering different, different I think, you know, I think, um, we need to begin to model homes where we teach, you know, we're very intentional with what the outcome we want to see.

Yes.

You know, and I don't know, but I see, I see that a lot can change when the foundation of every home— yes— is well situated. Yes, you know, with Christ being the center here, you know, because Even in church, what are the kind of girls we are raising? You know, what are the kind of— you know, because I've seen so much lately that you begin to ask yourself, where did we go wrong?

He's with these people.

Where did we go wrong? So church, I, I don't know. I'm not as old as you think I am, pardon my beard, you know, but growing up, you know, there I have a Catholic background. Oh, same here, you know. Are you sure?

Fathers don't know each other. My grandfather was—

my dad—

my father's in that church.

Okay, my dad was— you know, when that wave of Deeper Life came, that did something for me also, you know, because that was where the foundation of Christianity. You know, it's not known that— I mean, we had our TV locked inside somewhere, you know. Whether you like it or not, there are things that are non-negotiable when we begin to teach our children. There's so many things they learn today from the internet more than what they learn from the house. So how long do we expose them? When are we supposed to expose them? And all of this, these are conversations we should begin to hold, you know. Do we actually spend time with our children? It's not just for men, it's not just about providing. Be present. Yeah, we have to deliberately and intentionally be there. It doesn't matter, it's not about money. So we should begin to model what we want to see. And again, for For me, whether newlywed or what have you, what's the kind of home you want to see? For some people, finance is a no-go area. Yeah, that's one of the core of a marriage. Some call it Your money is my money.

Your money is our money.

So your ₦20 is your money, but your ₦220,000 is my money, but your ₦20 is our money.

You know, I think these are some— I don't know what we teach in marriage counseling anymore.

Sorry, from a professional angle, and this is not a bash on churches, I've seen different curriculums. What we have— because I'm a Christian, so I don't know what other religion practice— but I tell young people who wants to get married, church counseling is not marriage counseling, it's marriage advice.

Yeah, I, I strongly—

you have to go to professional counselors.

Only very few, only very few.

You know, you know, you know what we do, you know what we do.

Actually, I hope I feel I, I wouldn't agree with that.

I'm saying this also because what we did in Light Nation, and I'm not just trying to blow that trumpet, is that we got anyone that will stand in that place become professionally trained.

Yes, that's the balance.

You can't counsel people just because you're a pastor's wife.

Exactly.

Only the people who get involved in marriage issues are professional counselors and therapists.

I think that's where we should start from. Yeah, you know, because most of the things we deal with today in marriages should have been addressed.

A couple was supposed to do a pre-wedding shoot with me. I mean, they're friends, and you know, they came to my— and I can be naughty with intending couples because I feel that there are conversations that 2 weeks to your wedding you should have had. And then I was— it was a very sexual conversation. And because the bride was my friend from childhood, so these were bands that we used to have growing up. And like, oh, I'm going to see the man you're going to marry. And then eventually they came around and then we were talking and they were telling me that all through their counseling sessions, which they were done, the issue of sex was never raised. Never raised. N-E-V-E-R, never raised. And I'm like, no, shay, and why? Meaning, that doesn't make any sense. So I strongly believe that, look, Vera have been a beneficiary of different set of people counsel me maritally, you know, elders that have spoken to, advice. And we've had elders in the church setting that, you know, really gave us solid counsel. And we've also had people that, you know, totally botched the job. And so I feel that individuals themselves must understand— firstly, be true to yourself and know what you lack, and then be open to receiving it from those that evidently have it.

Yeah.

Now, there are older couples who might not be trained counselors but have wisdom deep. Now, if you are talking about marrying to somebody, they should listen because this be— this white things don't die, you understand? So, and, and it is not every older person too who has a story to tell that actually has wisdom to share, because foolish people grow old too.

I think some of the things we don't do in church, you know, is Like I said, I had a Catholic background. In Catholic Church, if you're going to get married, you have someone you look up to as your sponsor.

Sponsor, yeah, that's what they call it.

That person guides you, yeah, your early days, you know, because marriage, you, you just have two wonderful people coming together, two different people. Yeah, I use the word, you know, coming together. So there are titting periods in your life. Yeah, there are people you look up to. So when there are issues, they are the first because you're sold out to them. Because one, they are your godparents.

Yeah.

Two, they've experienced— and I think, I don't know are old, but I mean, they would have been 10 years plus in marriage, so they've seen it black and blue. So they can hold you.

They can hold you. I was speaking to a couple this afternoon. Sorry, sir. I was speaking to a couple this afternoon, and I was asking them, I said, you guys are planning on getting married next year? He said, yes, sir. I said, so who, who, who guides you in your marriage? Who guides you in your relationship? Who's, who's the one person that you both listen to? Not that you have somebody you listen to. You have some because when this person is saying jump and this other person is saying duck, then we have issues. Is there one person or a set of people that you both agree that these guys are unbiased, they have wisdom, they are good, and they are a model for marriage that you both are subjected to or submitted to? And they said no. I said, is Yoruba Apostle Femi Lazarus? I said, both of you are wise. Who's raising these kids? Who's— where are they getting these models from? And I feel that, look, my mentor used to tell me something. He said, look, my father died young, so I didn't have a template of what a real father should look like. So I inserted myself into good families so I can observe. So I learned from this, I learned from this. So I now understood, that was what you were doing when you were close to my dad. He said, so I've learned from different fathers because I don't ever want to have an excuse to say my dad died, that's why I'm a terrible father.

I will interject you right there. Talking about professional counseling, we've established that wisdom is needed. This is the reason why I said professional counseling is important, because when you go through counseling professionally, one of the things it will reveal to you Yes, married that shouldn't have happened. A lot of marriages—

now there's no bias.

Yeah, because there's no bias.

Yes, because emphasis on religious bias. Yeah, because there are some marriages that have no business happening in the first place. Mind you, they might be good people, but there are times two good people are not good for each other.

Yeah, on a lighter note, eh, and just to take it up from where you, where you just stopped now, Um, we got, we got counseled in Calvary Bible Church, Pastor Limbey Emmanuel. That is one church that I started seeing for the first time in my life that take marriage like it's, it's big deal. So the first thing they did to me was to say, I'm a pastor, yeah, well, so your pastor, your wife is a pastor's child, pastor's wife needs to see you first. What, what is your plan for her? Ah, my plan? How to get married now to her. Now you want to get married to her? Okay, what have you seen? Has God spoken to you? So I remember what she told me.

I'm like, is that how God speaks to everybody like this in this church?

What do you mean? You know, then You now go and face a marriage panel of about 18 people.

Wow!

18 in the pastor's conference room. Every man, every couple will pass through that room. You will sit down, they'll call you in tongues, then they'll put two of you together, ask you different questions. From that place that's been coupled, they told, we don't think you can get married, they wouldn't register you.

Ah, advice to withdraw.

You'll be so—

something like that. You'll be so shocked that, uh, you want to ask, ask them, ah, why, how. Now when you eventually start the class, it's divided into two, 10 courses in each set. When you finish the first 10 Physical, rigorous, not online. You must attend. Then they will now ask you, go and think about it. They'll give you 3 weeks. Go and think about it. Go and talk about it.

Read your notes.

I still have my notes, my marriage counseling notes. I still have it till date, my handwriting. That teaching, you are not joking.

How?

So you write exam, you write, you go and read books, you do book summaries. Maybe like 4 times in each of those sets. Now what that does to you, it sticks. You never forget. Yeah, well, so if you love couples, you will not give them your notes to go and read and come back. Guess what? During the 3 weeks break, we've seen couples that said, ah, indeed, yeah, that's the goal of counseling. That's true.

Yeah, we cannot—

it shouldn't have happened.

Let's go our separate ways. I think on this note I might have to— so that we don't say everything. So there's a part 2, right? We— I, I'm just going to have to request.

It's fine, no problem.

Yes, then we can now touch other matters. There are some very deep matters too that I want us to touch in the part 2.

Thank you so much.

This has been a roller coaster of emotions for me sitting here listening to you this conversation from the most vulnerable and sincere standpoint, void of any filter or any bias. I just want to thank you, um, for— this is the first of this kind, The Classified, that we're having. I'm going to have to sit with some women like this also, but this is Men's Mental Health Awareness Month.

Yes.

And I just want to thank you for being good men and for being on The Classified with me.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. Thank you for having us on the boat.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.