WHAT DO WE DO WITH MEN'S VULNERABILITY (PART 2)

Hey guys, if you're watching this now, that means you are here for intelligent conversations and this is exactly where you want to be. We have conversations that will get you at the edge of your seat, and this particular one is one you don't want to miss. I have a very honest request from you as we start this conversation. I'd like for you to like this broadcast. That helps us to get this to as many people as possible. You know, we can work together getting intelligent conversations to people all over the world. And I'd like you to drop your comment. Let us know how you feel. Let's know how this has impacted you. And one thing you want to do also is to subscribe to this YouTube channel, as this will notify you whenever we're bringing up videos, um, podcasts, or any other kind of video that can be a blessing to your heart. I look forward to having you again and again on this show. Thank you so much. So there's this concept I've heard again and again where people are saying that they need the men to be more vulnerable. And maybe one of the questions on my mind is, are we really ready for a vulnerable man?

Okay, let me, let me jump into it then. Um, my ogaz will, will blow it up. Um, before this conversation, we were talking about conditioning. I don't think we are ready for a vulnerable man in the sense that there is an image of man that we've been conditioned to have as this is who a man is. Which is not normal. Um, for instance, we've seen when you're growing up, they tell you boys don't cry, you're a man, man up, chest it up, you know, don't cry like a girl, why are you acting girly, don't emote, don't show your emotions, you have to be strong, you know, you have to be strong for the family. So you grow up to becoming a man who wants to deal with his own problem by himself, who feels me me being vulnerable, me expressing how I feel to others, is even a weakness. And that's what the society has pictured or has agreed to be the definition of a man. So when you now decide to be vulnerable, then you're creating a cognitive dissonance for people around you. Because yes, they want you to be vulnerable, but cognitively they are not ready because they've not been conditioned to accept it like that. So there's going to be a conflict right there. So I don't think the society is fully ready for men to be vulnerable.

Apostle, come to think of it, so there's a way vulnerable man can be a disadvantaged man. Um, so take for instance a man searching for a bride. The bride is all out trying to see signs. You can be sure that if she sees vulnerability sometimes in the guy, she can see it as a flaw. Yes, she could see it as a flaw.

And some will say it depends on the kind of woman.

Okay, okay, so it also depends on the kind of man. So we're talking generally now. Would a woman or would the society appreciate a man that displays emotions when he is bereaved, when he's disadvantaged, when he loses, when he experiences loss? What would the society think about a man who cries uncontrollably? Sometimes, you know, it's good to let it out. It's good to cry. I cry. I cry.

Strong Otuba.

I cry when I have to cry. In fact, each time I cry, I get better. I draw strength. So even though I cry in my confines, I cry, and I know why I cry. I cry because I want to let out. Do you understand?

Yeah.

Um, I think my wife has seen me cry twice. Yes, she's been very wonderful to be able to console, to be able to hold me and tell me no. And I'll give you an instance. So I used to think that I could be a bad person because I didn't have friends around me, just because I walked away from the few bad ones I had at some time. So if I need people around at that time, I don't get to see them. So I asked my wife one day, "Ah, say you are a bad person, Femi Lazarus?" Am I a bad person? When I see you with friends, I see you, but for me, I'm always working, working, working, not for myself. For the family. So I don't have time to say, oh, this is my friend. So she has groups. She has When Wives Pray. She has Saint Mothers. She has— recently they went to Singapore. Oh, the trip, you know, they went to Singapore. Uh, Pastor Tomy Adisa took took some of them and they went to Singapore to go and pray and to go and unwind. Do we get to see that amongst men?

You should do something like that for us too.

That's the man to organize it.

We should go to Casablanca.

But that's the man to organize it right there.

Okay, Apostle, do we get to see that amongst men? You know, I watched this, um, movie The Forge. Did you see how that group was? That was a movie. Do we get to see that amongst men? Because even in the church, you see men, men spiting men. You see men too busy to even mingle. A lot of people in church, you don't even know what they do. Do you understand? So those are the vulnerabilities that we experience, albeit indirectly. Wow.

I think When it comes to the vulnerability of men and if men should, um, I think the vulnerability of men should be directly proportional to the intelligence and wisdom of the audience.

Ah, okay, okay, all right, okay, all right.

Um, I, I think that, and whether the audience is male or female Um, you know, whether it be an audience of 1, an audience of 10, um, because the vulnerability is not the issue, the weaponization of it is the problem. So we've seen men who were vulnerable and that exposed the chink in their armor. And for men, there's a reason why we have this exoskeleton. It's there for a reason. It's there to protect the tissues that we have on our inside so we might— we will not end up needing tissues all the time. Mm-hmm. So I, I feel that, um, I mean, Apostle is my brother. Uncle Kwai is my brother. They've seen me at my lowest. And when I say at my lowest, at my lowest. And I don't think— and I think over the past years they've earned that right for me to be that open. And I think that the audience being an audience to your vulnerability as a man has to be earned.

Mm-hmm.

But the issue is that because most times, and I mean most times, the people that most men are typically wired against being vulnerable in the presence of the female gender. And, um, because male to male, we have this unwritten laws of guy after ID. You sure say you did a good deal, right? We've said a lot.

Yeah, Baba, don't worry.

We'll go play game.

A lot has been said. Now, if I want to open more to you, it will depend on your history with me, with handling the vulnerability with you.

Yes.

And then, but when it comes to women, I think I dare say that women have not really been trained on how to handle the vulnerability of men.

With some women.

Some.

And it's not general knowledge. And I know we are trying to be safe, but it's not general knowledge. You don't see mothers sitting their daughters down and say, this is how to handle your husband in his weakest point. These are not conversations that are really had.

Wow.

You know, they are taught to cook, and which is beautiful. They are taught to groom the kids, to raise them. I mean, whatever it is that we raise women with. But I say it again that the girl child is not really being trained on how to handle the male gender. The society teaches them how to control the male gender, but the society has not really taken time to tell people this is how men should be handled. I mean, and I thank God for Some very wonderful influencers, female influencers that I'm seeing these days that are really talking about it. There's this lady, Is Daughter Seven or something like that. There is another one, Bumi Ajida or something. And then they get to speak from a perspective where, you know, who raised these women? Whoever raised them is doing a very fantastic job or did a very fantastic job. You cry in front of a woman once You are dead. And some women, and like I say, like Apostle has been stating, now this is not to generalize that every woman cannot.

Mm-mm.

We are speaking to the population that cannot handle it. So if you can, congratulations, teach those that cannot. But we are speaking to those that cannot handle it. And I feel that it can be a lot because like you said, Uncle Kwaku, it's a cognitive dissonance. They can't. It's a rude shock. Some people don't even know, even some men don't know what to do with a fellow crying man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, guy, why you can't dey cry now? This one wey dey cry, why dey cry like woman now? Whereas the guy is dying. Your guy dey die. Yeah, do you understand?

Particularly guys who are very pushy and are quick to project their opinions. And dismiss others. Oftentimes you— and, and I think the society has not done really well in projecting the fact that an average man is deeper than you think. You keep seeing conversations and books that talks about, uh, you can't understand a woman. I will make it look cheap understanding a man, that if a man has 5 things to tell you It starts from the cheapest to see how you behave.

Yes.

And that's what determines if he's going to go further.

Yes.

And unfortunately, many men have sized up their spouses and seen that they have no base.

They have no base to carry their debt.

Yes.

So they, they carry as much as they can, and when it gets to the point where they can't carry again, some will pull it off at Biapalo. And in some very terrible cases, some end up in the hand of very strange women.

Yeah, I mean, to pick it up from where he left off, you know, you have to be able to be in that space. Yeah, where you'll be on the same wavelength to be able to dish out certain things. Yeah, for a lot of men, what they've met with is that once they open up, it's being weaponized.

Yes, against them.

And that alone will stop them from saying more. Yeah, you know, for homes where, you know, I listened to a podcast the other day And someone asked the pastor, said, how open should we be to our spouses? How open? And I watch closely how he answered that question. He said, it has to be part-time, as much as they can take, you know, because if you open too early You know, I'm not saying you should be— I mean, be truthful, be honest, but measure how much they can take per time. Yeah, otherwise you crash, you know. So I think it's something— I don't know if that responsibility should be on us, you know, but we should be able to bring them to term so that they get to that point where They are able to hear us. They are able to understand how to relate with us when we're in that vulnerable state.

You know, you know what you said now just reminded me of, um, uh, there are some medicines, some drugs that they don't administer it by age, they administer it by weight. So there are some levels of— there are some things you don't expose some people to by virtue of their age or by virtue of their weight. And because you drop some things on some people and you watch them crash right before your very eyes, and it's not because they, they, they chose to, but because over time they've not built capacity to handle such information. I mean, I can be in the company of some of my guys, and then like maybe there are 5 or 6, and they are exposed to certain circles. And then inside the inside, and then they'll just pass one gist, just very one sharp update. I'll be like, guys, afafa. They'll be like, Baba, mo no tell you this one, this one will crush you. And because they understand, they know where I'm at, And if they drop that on me, they know how it's going to really, really— So I feel that the society at large, looking at it on a macro scale, is actually— and that's why conversations like this is necessary. The society at large is not ready. Is not ready. This is an attempt for a revival.

Yeah.

The society in itself It's not ready for men to open up, because when a man opens up, ah, can you bear it?

So it just reminded me of something. Okay, so maybe I should just chip this in. At some point in 2020, 2021, when at the peak of scarcity, 2020. So I had this project of mine that I was trying to do. And fortunately, I met this very influential person and we got talking and he promised, oh, let's go see my— his godfather. Of course, if somebody was influential and referred to another person as godfather, you can imagine how. So we went to see this person, and we were there at the hotel lobby. The person came, and we talked. I presented the thing. He was so ready to help me. He was fascinated with the project, and he said, no, we're going to do this. However, when we were going, the Holy Spirit told me, that, um, you remember that whatever you do, I'd always told you to be very open with your faith. Tell the person, if anything happens and you want to bring me into something other than Jesus, denounce it, reject it, walk away. Walk away if you don't want to die. So I had the intention that I was going to tell him So while we were driving, I didn't say it. While we were there, they now told me to excuse them and they were talking. I have this gift, I could hear, I could drop my ears on a table and hear what you're saying. Very strange. Very, very strange. I was asking them, whose son is that? Where is he from? Fantastic, but if you do this for him, what's the price? What's the, you know? I started getting scared. I was looking at their gestures, body language, and all. Long story cut short, when we got home, all the way home, I dropped my car, so we drove his car all the way home. I didn't say anything, he didn't utter any word. And we got home and he told me to come to the bedroom. We got to the bedroom, removed his shirt, it was just a singlet, removed the trouser, it was just his pants. And he looked at me and he said, eh, At least, what group are you in?

What society?

What cult do you belong to?

Light Nation.

So at that time, I hadn't joined Light Nation, but then I had a personal encounter with God that made God tell me— remember, I'd gone through that suicide thing, so I had understood that whatever God doesn't give you will not last. So I said, ah, 'Sir, I even wanted to tell you since, I don't know how I forgot, but let me say it now, sir. This thing you want to help me with, it will profit both of us. But the day you try to make me deviate and join a cult or bring something that is not clean, I will walk away.' He just picked one very big Bible about the size of this too. He switched.

He switched immediately.

Guess what? I never heard about the man. He never called me again. They actually went on with the idea. Of course they made money. Maybe down the line, in about a year, he bought two houses in GRA. He bought another one, you know, later I heard, bought two houses in GRA, bought another one. But he lost his daughter. Doctor, medical doctor.

Okay.

In the US.

Okay.

I don't know, I'm not linking it to anything, I'm just saying that.

Oh, just— you don't link it?

Who do the linking?

That night, now the question is, that night when I got home, because I was vulnerable and my wife knew that we're vulnerable at that time, Would it have been appropriate for me to have told her? No, that's the vulnerability, that's the deep angle right at its peak.

I'm trying to picture something. You have had an experience around that. When he was offing his clothes, I saw your face change.

Yeah, yeah, it sounds so familiar.

The conversations around that, you want to get into that conversation?

I mean, I mean, I think, I think what our goal is to, you know, protecting the boy child. And then, I mean, this, we have a whole set of different people, um, you know, under the clothes. Everybody wears clothes and you have zero idea as to, um, what they are dealing with inside. I mean, I've been with, you know, somebody that was well respected.

Yeah.

Um, in where, um, yeah, code it, code it, code it, code it. You know, in a very specific circle, highly respected, respected by those that we respect. And then, you know, you know, gained interest in me as a very young man and he said, oh, I like you, you're very creative, you're very this, oh, head this, head that for me. So when I come around, you can give report. And okay. And then I just invent that is like the peak of what we used to do then. And it was like, oh, fine, fine. And my father had a house nearby, but I said, oh, I was going to go with this big, big people, a big uncle, and then, you know, stay with him. And, you know, I got there and he exposed me to so much access so fast. I'm like, and this guy is like the number 3 most powerful person in the, in the something, in our own ecosystem was like number, number 2, right? And so here was I, maybe number 270 something, rolling with the number 2, driving around. And then we got to the hotel at night, and then, you know, but I did a photo shoot then of myself. And the pictures were so lovely. I put the pictures on his phone because he had a very much bigger phone. So what I'm saying is over 12 years ago. And so I sent my images to his phone and we got to the hotel room.

He was fantasizing about your pictures.

And I got another guy. I met another guy in the room. So it's the offing clothes part that— And this is the first time I'm ever saying this publicly. I met another guy in the room and, you know, the guy you met in the room, clothes on or clothes off? Clothes off, of course. Okay, but because I went to a body—

look at guys' thing.

Yeah, you won't freak out if you walk into my room and I have only my briefs on.

It's just—

of course, but the guy had a gimme attitude, like, and he was from maybe Malawi or one other African country like that. I was just like, maybe that's how they do in there. In their place. And then time came for us to shower, you know, I just jumped into the bathroom and it was all these bathrooms with clear, clear glass. I didn't know I was turning onku on.

12 years ago.

And when it was time for us to sleep, then he told me, and it was a very, you know, coming from a campus environment 3 of us could sleep on this, on this, on this sofa. One head go like this, tail will go like this, head will go like this. And then this sofa was a king-size, super king-size bed. And it was time for us to sleep at night, and it was like, ah, you, um, Yemi, you can't, you can't stay here with us, um, the bed is too small.

Ah, we could manage this.

No, it's not even manage. There's space. If we slept on that same bed, 3 of us I spread like this, will not touch.

Yeah.

And he said, no, no, the bed is— I'm like, maybe that's how Boti children and Angola people used to do. Maybe the bed will not reach. And then so they got me a big room, same size, same everything, upstairs. And, you know, I was even taking pictures and sending to my family members. I see I made it. I'm the first in family to lodge in this kind of room by myself. And then night went, the following morning I went downstairs, the other guy had gone. And then we went around day 2 for a Christian event, oh. Day 2 went like that, and then we got back to the hotel room and it was time for us to sleep. So normally, but that night, because me normally would have taken off everything, that night I just remain my boxers. And then I was still asking this uncle, I said, "Egbon, when will you marry?" And he was like, "Yeah, yeah, I was in this relationship with this person, it didn't work." And then, okay. So middle of the night, I just woke up. Bros was dragging my man Udo. Man, it was not— it was dragging, it was serious. As I woke up like this, I woke up like Abejoye. I woke up, I woke up like, protect the boy child, protect the guys. I woke up like this, grab the future generations. That stupa touched me right there. What? And because I was so shocked, I was having a cocktail of different emotions— surprise, This is somebody that we look up to in the spiritual ecosystem.

Shocking.

I did not even— my brain took a flight, came back, took another flight. I didn't even know. So that was the day I realized that they say flight or fight. There is a third one, freeze.

Yes.

So that's why we used to abuse them in Nollywood that, "Kawonto jam you do." No, there's a third one where the brain can't decide whether to fight or to fly. It just freezes. I just froze. And Bros was trying to— oh, this your knee very well. So this was me holding Toba and Toju. Me, it was pulling, pulling the thing, pulling. All I could just do was freeze like, this is not happening, this is not happening, this is not happening.

Wow.

And after a while, and all I did, I still froze like I was sleeping. Of course, Egbon knew I was not sleeping, and I just turned my back to him like this, like, look, that's even dangerous too. And that was the biggest mistake. As I, as I thought, as I thought like this to him, bros just put leg over me like this. I'm serious. I've told you, you were the first person I called.

Yeah, yeah, you called me.

Baba just pulled the leg.

Ah!

Eh, wah! See you dead! If you hug me anyhow, bro, you collect, oh!

Wow, the trauma.

The thing scared me.

No, no, no, you don't jump on her. You know, after I heard your story, I had this— I've not shared this with you guys before, so why I share?

You have similar experience? Wait, wait, let me finish.

Mine is not that.

Let me finish. As bros just did the thing like this, he was not trying to touch. Ah! It did not be—

Man to man.

Man to man! You think it vexed me? You think it vexed me?

12 years after.

12 years ago. Wow. And the guy was just— and then after like 5 minutes of struggle, and this was— this guy was the most pleasant Big Brother ever.

Yeah, calm, calm.

So when people come out and say, hey, this person touched me, this person, and they said no, he can't ever— I said shut up. Wow, shut up your mouth. It be the people you don't expect. Wow. And then after like 5 minutes, the guy just freed me. I could not imagine. It felt like a nightmare. It felt like a bad dream. And then I was just struggling because it happened like from sleep. I don't know the sleep that caught me. I managed to sleep back. I'll sleep, but this time I'm ready. I slept back, and then when we woke up the following morning, his face has changed. The super cute Egbon that was laughing with me was not laughing with me again. And then was like, oh yeah, let's get ready, we are late. And I was even still trying to gather my stuff, he just gave me one very strong spanking. No, spank does not cover it. Abara!

He's spanking.

Twi! On my back. Will you get ready? I'm dead fast. And I saw his face, it was like a wolf. It changed. That was the— that's the face of a man that you deny congee. The guy was pissed with me. In my mind, I was like, what did I ever do to communicate to this guy that I was— oh, I was showering naked, I was sending my pictures. Oh, so I was the one leading him on. So maybe, maybe in their, in their something, that's how you do. You, you, you bathe naked, you send pictures. And that was, I just told him, I said my uncle got to hear that I'm around, he sent me to— Oga, if you're watching this podcast, I've cursed you because I've cursed you. Do anything funny now. And I can come for you. The guy just came. I just told him, bro, my uncle is there, he asked me to come. And then he told the car to go drop me, and he dropped me. And so I made the car stop like 7 houses to the place for security reasons. You ain't gonna know where I live, man. Wow. Yeah. And the guy dropped me, and 3 weeks later I saw him on campus again. And immediately I just used— I just told my friend, wait, my— I call her Guy, she's my very, very tight friend. I said, I won't do one stunt. So I changed my friend's picture. There's a picture we took together, I changed it to my wallpaper. So the guy now, he saw me, ah, good afternoon, sir. Good afternoon, you.

You, eh?

That's on my phone. Let me see that. And I looked at the picture, look at me, for like 2 very, 2 awkward minutes. Some punch right there, I'm telling you. The last time I saw him, I saw him at an event. He came there, you know, I was with my son, and I said, sir, this is my son and my wife.

You put it out there.

I saw him last year. I saw him last year. Wow, wow. I saw him last year. And you know, these are things that happen that— ah, so when you say you're off trousers, you're off clothes, that brought back memories.

The similar one I had, remember the place we did our retreats?

Why am I always the one?

So when we're talking about men being vulnerable, it's not that kind of vulnerable.

Yes, it's not that kind of Honorable, the place we did our retreat. Yeah, so we usually play games at night.

Oh, that same place?

That same place.

Now Apostle was there.

Now wait, now, so there's this other guy that stays opposite that apartment. He's a lawyer, you know, his dad is comfortable and all of that. So he would join us to play. And you know, guys, now it's night, everybody, you're just on your briefs, guy, guy, just So usually the rest would have played and, you know, gone their separate ways, but me and this guy will stay up and play till morning.

Like soulmates.

I never knew this guy was always watching me because my own— I'm just focused on the game until, um, a lady came around and this girl likes this guy because he's actually a very chill guy. And she was trying to, uh, I'm here. She will even cook for him, take it to his apartment, you know, just to look at me. Until one day the guy just cleared, I don't like girls. So she told me because they know that amongst them, I mean, you don't like girls, academic, what do you like, and all of those things. So if you don't like girls, the thing did not sink well. Like, I'm like, maybe you're not attractive to him, so stop forcing yourself on him. Wow. So one day I had to ask him. I'm like, I heard this, so you said to this person that you don't like them. Yeah, bro, I've been wanting to ask you too now. I wanted to ask you, I heard you have, you have a girlfriend and you're planning to marry her. Why do you want to marry her now? Ah, every of us blow. I said, ah, I love her and I want to marry. She said, honestly, okay, I, I heard that you are a counselor. Why are you people attracted? That, that is how he asked. Why are you guys attracted to all these girls? Why are you attracted to them? I said, bro, just hold on. So I had to move back. I was picturing the several nights we played games together and I was on my briefs, just like the images coming to my head. I'm like, are you this?

Say yeah. Wow.

Immediately I told him I need to use the restroom, so I go call our guy.

Did he follow you? Did he follow you to the restroom?

Just— no, he stayed outside. So I called our guy, I said, ah, we are in trouble in this house.

Can you even guarantee that that guy too? Because there are those who straddle the boat.

Yeah, I know. Now me calling him is to establish that he is not. So when I told him, he was like—

that was more like an aralek.

Yes. Now, so when I told him, immediately he said he's going to call the carpenter to change the lock of the house. That, ah, that he was suspecting. Wow. You know, so I went outside, I'm like, are you joking? Then he told me that, no, that he felt the reason why we play game together is because I'm into— I say me, no Mwah! Bro, you got it. He said, ah, that he was even planning to introduce me, that they have a community. This is in Lagos, that they have a community where just like very, very strong guy girls do hook up, that they have their own where you order and they come around and all of that.

I just cleared up.

Yeah, I said, you got it all wrong. So I switched to my own counseling mode just to investigate where did this start from. He started from the age of 4. His cousin, you know, did that to him.

And I think we need to get into that conversation. What happens to the boys in school, boarding schools? Some of these schools, they go there, they can't come back to say what is happening. They're introduced to all forms of vices, and sometimes it's wrong teaching. And the guy start feeling that he's feeling he ought not to be a guy. You ought to be a girl, start behaving like that, and then start liking other guys, you know. And I think these are conversations that needs to happen. What's going on with the boys in school?

Who's checking up on the boys?

You know, um, I went to boarding school.

Yeah.

Um, but as God would have it, I went to a mixed boarding school, and I don't think without decadence society has gotten right now. That a same-gender school, boarding school, I don't see the need for it. I don't think that in a, in the most formative years of a child, when the hormones are raging, it should be surrounded with only people. It's an anti-societal wiring, right? I think for whatever, um, reason it was established, I strongly believe that that reason has long been defeated.

Right?

But that aside, that's just my opinion. Anyways, I went to boarding school, FGC Kirum, and all through my stay there, they used to write some things around the walls. It was censored by the school authority, and I never got to know the meaning until I left school. Do you know that what didn't dawn on me until 2 years ago. So everywhere we used to go to, they used to write 'no bullying.' They will stencil it on each classroom. On this classroom, 'no bullying.' As you're walking past, you see 'no loitering.' And then the next one is 'no fagging.' You didn't get that until now. Now, loitering was a word I never heard anyone use all through my 6 years in school.

Loitering.

We never knew the meaning. It was a non-existent word in our vocabulary. Nobody knew the meaning of loitering. It was not even used in any statement.

Bullying.

We didn't know what the meaning was. Nobody used the word bully. What we knew was seniority. Hmm, do you understand?

Wow.

Nobody used the word loitering. What we knew was you are walking around, you are walking around. Now nobody used the word fagging. So I'm not like this is something that has been that existent since the time when we were just pure innocent because we were operating on a different spectrum. So for the school authority to write no fagging, unless fagging means another thing, and I'm like, it got to that point where they had to write it on the walls with all the beautiful features God has put in girls, even though they were in GS3. And I'm telling you, you go into these things. I knew one of my classmates that used to scale face, and I've forgotten the term we used to use for it. He would run to town and sneak out of school and go and smoke ibu. We call the guy Tosun. We go and smoke igbo. It's been like that since we were in GS3, SS1. And then when he scales fence like that and comes back, he will bring fish, bring many contrabands in and sell to other students. And everybody left school, then we came back for 10-year reunion. In 2018. No, no, no, Tosco, Tosco was— this guy had become a full-blown addict. You know, when you come for reunions like that, they lodge us in the same hostel as we were. So all of us were just there having the boarding house experience again. Tosco still left to go and smoke He go, and he came back. I said, I asked him in Yoruba, I said, are you still doing this? He said, you brush with weed. We brush, we marinate our mouth with weed every morning. And it got me to realize that the same track, the same creative and religious track I had been on from school is what I'm still on today. And I looked at almost all of us that came for that reunion, our destinies were somehow sealed in that season. Many of the church guys that were chapel boys then ended up as pastors.

Because that was the formative season.

That was, that was. So it is too crucial a season So let me—

okay, yes, you want to say something?

If I may, um, if I may say something about, um, the boy child. Um, we got, we got talking last week and, um, you know, I, I told you about what, um, my, my wife received from God about training Yeah, kids from 4— yes, between 4 and 12. Um, I moved to Abuja, so I had to move them, and, um, we were torn in between. Okay, what do you want to do? I could have gotten a government job, but at that time, God just revealed himself and said, you know what, I need you to stay with the kids. If I'd gotten my wife a job, would have affected my children, but But I couldn't push it, so I made her know I was looking for a job for her because— so that she doesn't feel like I'm trying to suppress, you get. So when she heard from God herself, I was just like, no, Holy Spirit, thank you, thank you, because this would save my marriage, it will save my home. Do you know, sir, that between 4 and 12, boys get all they're going to be in life.

Wow.

I'll tell you. So we've got an 8-year-old in the midst of that fellowship that's causing trauma for his parents.

Wow.

But at the same time, we've also got 5-year-old that spoke in tongues just yesterday. So when she told me this was the next thing on the curriculum during the week, I said, no, you got to be kidding. How do you want— amokekeke— this little kid speaking? Ah, how do you want to do it? And it was, it was so wonderful seeing that happen. Now, if you catch them young, So the burden lies on the parents. Not— do not leave your kids for the society to train, to raise for you, to raise. So it's on the parents. And that is why if both do not agree, it's a risk that will be transferred and hatch on the kids, on the children. You spoke to us last week and you told us about your family. He told us about how you talk to your kids. Do you know, at the end of the session, I had to ask you, how old are these kids we're talking about? And I can tell you that you're proud of them. God is proud of them because of the investment you put in them. So just to answer what Apostle asked about the boy, the boy child, I still think that if you catch them young, instill those knowledge in their heads, you know, they will not depart from it. Just like the Bible said, train up a child in the way to go, not train up an adult, not train up a teenager, train up a child in the way to go so that when he grows, he doesn't depart from it.

And he has two mature boys, and I want you to say something about it.

Yeah, I think, um, For the boy child, we actually— we don't pay attention to them as much. The society don't say so much because it's always a girl child. This could happen, that could happen, and this could happen. For the boy child, there's so many young, very little boys who are abused by their caregiver. Wow. Yeah, from that age of 2, 3, and thereabouts, you have their caregiver will bathe for them and do all manner of things to them that they will not tell you. So yes, as much as you're busy pay attention to how your children are being cared for, you know, because at the end of the day, you will spend that time you never had when they were young. You will spend much more of that time correcting the hills that you didn't do when they were young. I think for us, what, um, What happened for me was that, um, we agreed that my wife wasn't going to do any job that would take her too much away from home until the last kid is 5, you know. So when we got married, that's what we agreed. I was then— I was an investment banker, so of course I was always everywhere, you know, but she paid attention. You know, when we had our second kid, you know, she had to get a government job which was 5 minutes away from home, you know. So she paid attention to the, to the house, you know. I think it's something that we need to understand, that we can't both be— there's time for everything. You know, we can't both be so busy that we leave the care of our children for outsiders, you know. So for the boy child, if you don't get them at that early age, yeah, they'll begin to listen more to someone else.

True.

They'll begin to learn more from someone else. And at the end of the day, you lose them totally.

Totally. I remember, I remember the story that my dad used to share in church when he's talking about raising kids. So he's the one that made me remember the story. So I remember the story, I didn't remember the incident. He said there was a day I came back from— so remember I said in the last episode that my mom has this tiny store that she sells stuff. So she sells contraceptives, condoms, as well for people that just want to buy. They used to call it CD, just say, give us CD. And my mom just told us, oh, this is ₦5, this is ₦10. So we didn't even know what it was used for, right? Half the things that were there, we didn't even know. We just knew the price. My mom just labeled it that this one is ₦5, but we could count so we could sell. So as at then, I was not even the one selling. My mom had somebody in the store So we would go in there, play, come back. And my dad was saying that this was not even when I was— I was not even in primary one yet, so I'm guessing I was maybe 4 turning on 5, thereabout. And there was a day I went out and I went into my mom's store just by the fence of the house outside, and I brought out the condom. And I know that people always buy this at night. They always buy this thing. And I asked my dad, and I said, Daddy, what's this? What's this used for? My dad said— and my dad is a counselor, he's a psychologist— but I said, Oti bedju, go back inside, like you're too forward. Did we take that and return it? I'm like— and he said, okay, he's the one sharing the story himself. He said, I took it back. And I'm like, okay. And then the following day, I went to school and I came back and he had a guest. He's always having a guest anytime I want to do mine. So, and he had a guest and I just dropped my school bag and ran to him and I asked him and I said, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy! He said, what is it? I said, now I know what condoms are used for.

Oh, oh.

And then he said, what? And I did like this.

Oh, oh.

I was 4 going on 5.

He lost the opportunity.

He, he lost the opportunity. So he, he, he said I taught him a valuable lesson. That day that if you don't teach them inside the house, society will teach them.

Correct.

So I have, I have two boys. I have a 5-year-old and a 1-year-old. And so when the one that is 5 now started growing up, um, my, my mom was around and my— and he was running around the house without his diaper or something, and it was 3 at the time or so. And, you know, no, he has stopped wearing his diaper. And then my mom now said, Toba, go and cover your kokoro. We said, Mommy, no, it's not kokoro. Mommy, it's penis. She said, Toba, what's this? Penis. He now covered it. My mom now said, why did you cover it? And I said, because it's special. Let them know now. Let them know now.

That's it.

And we raised them in such a way that No, no, no, no, no, no. The boy doesn't give any false recurrance of anything. He will tell you where his teacher spanked him, the intensity. He will say, Auntie Kinnikun touched me today.

Where?

Here. Was it a good touch or a bad touch?

You help them understand. Understand.

It was— she shoved me because I was not writing. Did it pain you? No, even everybody. And we do that in the presence of everybody in the house. So we are sending a signal in case Satan want to enter you, this boy will talk. And I think that parents have not done a good job in listening to children. You think what they are saying is rubbish, they are smarter than you. Their brain is brand new, yours is used. Let me say this, and I'm coming from a spiritual angle here. My dad has an uncle and, um, um, Chief Fatokun, they were staying somewhere in Ife, and they said, um, anytime they wanted to sleep at night and they wanted to pray, they didn't used to involve the kids. And one time, I think maybe they preached the message in church or something, they said involve the children in this devotion something. And then they asked Uncle Ife, and they said— Ife was the last born— and they said, "Oh yeah, pray for us tonight." Mind you, this was the first time this guy was going to pray in the house. And he said, "Jesus." Everybody said, "Amen." "Jesus, amen. Don't let—" How did he put it? Don't let thieves enter. No, don't let goats enter and eat our cassava. One, they were not rearing goats. Secondly, they were not rearing cassavas. They don't have cassava. They don't have cassavas. They were not planting it. So where did he get the prayer points from? You will find out now. And then the following week Some robbers came. This was over 30 years ago. Came, and you know that time the armed robberies was armed robbery. They entered into every house on that line and butchered people like cassava, and they skipped their house. And they went on to the next house. So they didn't still get it. So it was when people came out the following morning and they were talking, they said it in Yoruba, they said, ah, eh, uba wey wure, eh, shan wey inyo, wele wele, bia ege. Look at how these goats of human beings came in and butchered people like cassava. That was when it clicked in the head of the mother. And he said, that's the prayer that Ife prayed. Wow, interesting. So children don't— in their gibberish, there is wisdom. They say stuff, and we as parents must learn to listen to them. And that's the time that, apart from that, they are smarter than you. That's when they're going to play games. That's when they're going to push boundaries. That's why they're going to try and test the limits of norms. They're going to try and push your buttons. But if you feel that, oh, it's just a 4-year-old, it's just a 5-year-old, he's just being naughty, he's establishing a pattern. He's establishing a pattern. I remember the first day my son Toba hit my wife. Oh, I spanked him. He was 3. Oh, I spanked him. I spanked him. Not like the way my father spanked me. Oh, but, but I spanked him. And as I was spanking him, I kept telling him, because I know it works for me, and I kept telling him, you don't beat a woman. You don't beat my wife. Wow. You don't beat a woman. You don't. That was the last time he did it. My brother's kids came to spend some time with me. We're talking about the boy child and talking about children. So he just has this weird way of just biting his siblings. He just bite them, you know, like maybe we give my toys, give me your toys. He just bite, he just bite. So my wife has been telling me that, eh, Irene is doing jang jang. The father was telling me from UK because he said, deal with this boy, this. I said, deal with this boy, deal with this boy. So one day my wife called me again that Irene has beaten As bit Ike again. So I left what I was doing in the studio. My studio was just 5 minutes from my house. I drove to the house. So when I got there, they about showering them, so they pour water on his body. I started biting him all over. Ah, yes, I carried him, I carried him like this, and he's very fleshy. I beat his head with hair. I beat his cheek like this, but not the one that he's scared with here. I was taking bites and he was crying. I said, now you know what it feels like. That was the last time he beat any of his siblings, he beat anybody. And you feel that children don't learn? They learn. They learn. But most people don't pay attention to where that small deviation is coming from. And you see, when you leave a small deviation like this. It will not show immediately, but draw that line, measure it against the— when you measure it against the parallel, that's when you're going to— so when people start saying that, when you start asking it in Yoruba, why is your life this deviated? It didn't start in a day. If my father had let that stealing thing go, maybe the first day I saw Apostle, I would have stolen his wristwatch or something like that. Do you understand? So I feel that most people— my father made a statement recently and we're talking about a particular person, and I asked him a question. I said, Daddy, why are people like this? How do people end up like this? And my father made a statement. He said, he said, forgive my Yoruba, he said, people, people not investing, people no longer working on on their kids. People don't take parenting actively. Parenting is work. You are looking out, you are looking out for, for virus.

I think the, the most dangerous thought process around that is the fact that the society is teaching both genders to be selfish, and the sacrifice that you make on your kids now looks like what you insult people with. It looks like, um, they are being foolish for being sacrificial. They are trying to project a narrative that it doesn't, you know, pay off anymore. And I think that's the reason why and all that. But there's a conversation that has been bothering me, and I think we need to have tonight, and still about the subject of vulnerability. If we have discussed here that some men are not vulnerable with their spouses, oftentimes because of capacity, kindness. And my wife taught me something about validation of emotions. And she said, if I tell you something that I'm not happy about, before you counter it, validate my feelings. So when she said that, I didn't get what she was saying. So if she says something that I don't like this you do, I respond by saying, I validate your feelings.

You know, my wife is a therapist, so she looked at me like, actually, I knew what she was saying.

You were speaking the validation. But I validate.

So, so, but we discussed and we agreed that when one person is talking, that's not the time to counter. Listen first, receive it, let it sink. Let the person not feel bad for speaking up. Unheard, you know. And that has really helped us. But this is the question I want to ask: if some men are struggling with speaking up with their spouses, why are they also struggling with speaking up with other men?

Did I, did I answer it? Because I remember that I was trying to explained when I shared that story. So you see, a vulnerable man, like I said, could be mistaken to be a disadvantaged man. Wow. So if, um, have you noticed that men tend to use other people's stories against them? Maybe sometime, some other time in the future, they just refer to it, and they refer to it in a gathering or in a place where the man would feel broken, totally broken. In a detrimental way. And it's not supposed to be cruel. It's cruel sometimes to them, but it becomes— and I'll give you an instance. So I was a victim of bullying. Mm. While I was, um, while I was in the boarding house, I was, I was a victim of bullying. I was the youngest in my class.

Yeah, we were like that.

Every other person was older. Um, I remember I've been bullied several times. There was a time that I even had a female hold me by the neck and jacked me up like this, and my legs were not touching the ground, and people laughed and laughed. So now we still have a WhatsApp group where we have all those people that was victims in their hands on the group. How do you think I felt the very first time they added me to that group? Wow. I'm just, I'm just asking. So I mean, it was, it was very bad. It was very bad. They bully me for my food. I'll fetch water for my mates. I didn't have I didn't have a father that stood me up one day and said, sit down, my child, you have to stand up for yourself and speak for yourself. And that is what we ask.

He also was talking you down at home.

Oh yes, so that was part of it.

And you can't give up. So that is, that is what is different now, and that is what we were saying, and that is what we are still saying, that parents should live up to expectation talk to your children, you stand up for yourself. I watch out for my kids when they're at parties and I see how they act. When somebody wants to take something from you and he's not asking nicely, wants to snatch it, no, don't do that. No, don't do that. Because these are things they will need. They will need in the future. And I'll tell you why it is dangerous not to instill that in them. There's a particular guy in school, um, my last garri and my last milk. He told me to bring it out, my mate told me to bring it out and put it in this bowl. And I said, so, so, so, I cannot give you this thing, this is the last I have, look at it. I even opened my locker for him because I would have given him a slap. So I opened it, I showed him, said I should pour it, and he gave me a punch in my tummy. I remember that day, I still remember it so clearly, and I fell down and I cried. Ah, Pastor, I cried and I released it. That story, years after, much later, and this is where it gets very, very tricky and dangerous. She was diagnosed of an ailment, and on the group they said we should contribute. Wow, Apostle, this is real life. I was battered. Did I remember what he did?

Clearly. Wow. Did he do it knowingly?

Maybe not. Maybe it was just a boy thing. Like I said, it was secondary school, we're probably SS1, thereabouts. Was I willing to contribute, Apostle? I'm not proud to say it, no, because to me he left his car. Did I later now agree that what I did was very bad and very wrong? Yes, but I was just being human. The first thing that came to my head was me, contribute. Ah, no. So that is why, that's why I said that's where it gets tricky and very, very dangerous, because these boys, if they are not being taught, would experience society's scars which will not clear.

You know, I remember the year was 2003, and because I was trying to do the calculation as you were speaking, um, my dad had this senior colleague whose son happened to be in the boarding school that I attended. So automatically was supposed to be my big brother, supposed to be my school father, right? And then, you know, I got— the story is quite similar, and I got there and then one day he just called me, okay, open your provision box. And I'm like, Senior Officer, I've not, I've not, uh, jacked my provision. I've not unboxed it. I've not started. You know, you wait for like the second week, you try to hunger it out. I've not started. He said, he said, open it. And I'm like, I can't open this thing. And he said, Eh, Abi. Then he forced his way, he opened it, he took it, he left, and then he now came back and now said, it was me you were doing stubborn head for, Abi. Lie flat. He flogged me. Ah, he flogged me that day more than my father flogged me that day. Ah, yes, he flogged me. He had eaten my food. He flogged me and I counted. I counted 275 strokes. No way! I counted. No way! I counted 275.

Show me, Senior Officer.

I counted. Guess what? He flogged you 275 times? Where's my phone? Give me a minute. What? He flogged me— that's like 275 5 strokes. And you know, funny how life just happens. Hold on, give me a minute. And then my dad just called me— he just sent me a voice note. The guy, he sent a voice note to me. He sent a voice note to my dad, and he was apologizing.

This was, this was last week.

And then my father remembered, it was very fresh in his head. I would ask my dad to send me that voice note back. Very fresh. In fact, the part where my dad started recording the phone call was, "Oh no, you beat that boy. You were supposed to be his big brother." And he kept begging. I don't know why 2003 till now is when 23 years after. But you know, when I read that, when I listened to that voice note, I thank God that all I just had in me was forgiveness. Yes. Wow. It was just forgiveness. This is what I then told— this is what I told my dad. I said, if I'm correct, I'm so happy to hear his voice. I'm glad he's fine and doing okay. Asking for forgiveness, we were young, we were teenagers then. It's no big deal. I pray for you that God will keep helping you.

That's his voice praying for Sinafis. I flogged him 256 times, 275 times.

Everything you lay your hands upon, it prospers.

I'm forgiving you. I'm so happy to hear you.

Sorry to cut, Apostle. Almost as if when he's sent that, the way he was speaking with my dad, almost as if things had gone bad for him. They now told him that you've offended, go and the way it is in Yoruba land, go and start begging whoever it is you've offended. Meaning that particular trait could have continued on his streak where he kept misbehaving for years up until the time he got to somebody like me, unlike me, that was not going to forgive him. Yeah, because how do you beat an 11-year-old 275 strokes over his foot. That was what my father kept echoing, Lori onje, Lori onje, over his foot. I got home, I told my parents, my parents confronted his parents, he denied. Now he's calling back after 23 years.

Yeah, so I want to bring something up which is something that is very damaging, the effect of the use of excessive force. On the boy child and how it scars the— now I want to say this, I didn't have so much bad experience with my dad, um, in the sense that it was all I had. But there is a particular day I can't forget, just one day till tomorrow. When I remember the booting, I was too fragile for that. And the words and the fact that I've experienced that from someone else, and he was like my mezzai. The fact that that was coming from him, till tomorrow it has not left me. And I, I feel that some of these things are things that when children now grow older, there is no relationship with the parents except just duty. So how bad is it, the effect of excessive force on children, the male child, since that's the focus of this conversation?

So when you asked, I wanted to say it's not just the male child. Yeah, it's the children. Yeah, um, I was reading a documentary by one of these, um, psychologists. I'm trying to remember his name now, and he was talking about police relationships with criminals during interrogation, that intelligent police wouldn't use force to get information out of a criminal, they negotiate, they have conversations. And he has seen that in that—

I'm trying to remember the name of—

is it Finland or so, one of those countries—

that that's part of the reasons why their crime rates dropped, right? Because we've seen it in movies too. When you shout at someone the person automatically wants to shout back at you. Yeah, all of these things is part of exposure, part of conditioning, and all of that. Because when a male figure for the boy child use force on a child, you've exposed him to a possibility of violence. Wow. I did my master's project was the influence of televised aggression on the social adjustment of adolescents with hearing impairment. Right. So one of the things I pick up from that research is the power of exposure. For instance, I still share this with a teenager today. An Indian person who has never stepped into Nigeria cannot wake up to say, I want to have eba as breakfast. No, you can't. That's not even in his context. It's not a possibility because he was not exposed to that.

He's not seen that before.

He has not seen that before. So when you use excessive force on a child, you've exposed that child to a possibility, to the possibility of violence, and you cannot measure the extent to which that child will go with that exposure. Exposure. And again, we often confuse discipline with violence. And you know, people go with, uh, uh, the Bible says, uh, uh, spare the rod and spoil the child. Then I tell them, that same Bible says when your son disobeys you, take him to the council of elders, let them stone him to death. Well, you don't see that part in the Bible now.

And even the Bible says that you should not provoke your children to wrath.

Don't provoke your children to wrath. So we only read those scriptures through the lens of our biases. That's the issue. See, don't— if you are to spank a child at all, I have a rule: never spank a child for an offense that you have not explained what is wrong to him. Never. In fact, there are 10 principles I give, but you know, but you need to have put in those, explain, all right, these are actions and these are consequences. Give room for grace too, for correction. But again, who are the ones parenting? That is what they were exposed to.

Do you see?

And you cannot give— so there are two mountains, the mountain of knowledge and the mountain of ignorance. They shape your decision-making system. You cannot do beyond the mountain of knowledge that you have, and you cannot do beyond the mountain of ignorance that you have. What you don't know, you don't know. You cannot do beyond what you know. And that is why I tell people who wants to get married, aside from premarital counseling, you need to sign up for a parenting class. Because oftentimes when we are thinking about marriage, we just think, oh, it's just two lovers. Whatever happens between you guys goes a long way to affect the outcome of those children. Because you are creating an environment for them. Wow. Environment of abuse in case your marriage is one, environment of possibilities in case your marriage is one. And you cannot determine how far, because the seed is always tinier than the harvest. When you sow a seed, it's small. When the harvest comes, Is immeasurable. So that's what is going on. So what we now need to do is we need to now start teaching people how to love truly, because in love there's discipline, in love there's correction. Again, how do you have conversations? Must you yell? Must you shout for you to pass your message across? I had to start teaching my wife some of these things. When you disagree with me, you don't have to raise your voice at me. So when she's— she'll say, I'm just—

so now she uses the term, we are disagreeing to agree.

Yes, I'm just increasing my— no, you don't have to increase the volume. We are having a conversation.

Do you know the psychological reason why people shout? I tell you, once there is anger, the brain creates distance. Then you involuntarily raise your voice because now the fellow is far in your heart.

That's the psychology of shouting, and that's the inverse psychology of pillow talk. Once the body is close, once you're connected, you whisper. Your voice naturally drops. It's the reason why people can be having extra cool calls.

In the name of extra cool, you can be beside your friend and not hear what he's saying. The closer the heart, the lower the pitch. The farther the heart, the higher the pitch, right?

Yeah, man. But there's a twist.

I always love the twist from Otumba.

I love the twist.

So, you know, um, I had my own ordeal similar to— how much did you steal? 5 naira. Mine was 20 kobol. So I took 20 kobol from my dad, who usually gives us money to school when I went primary school, and I also went to my mom and did like I hadn't gotten anything and collected 20 cobra from my mom. So on that fateful day, I didn't know how, why my mom would tell my dad she gave me 20 cobra. Maybe they had an argument and maybe she said something like, "Adoreno, leye fekpa agbilade fa amolo o school." I don't know, I don't know. Shaadi caught me that day. My fingers, my dad marked my fingers all through. The two fingers till today, marked the two fingers. Beat me not with the koboko, with a ruler, a steel ruler. That is right. Yes, he used the ruler for you on my fingers.

Yes, use the ruler to beat you. That's why you are straight.

And you know, and you know, and you know, I, I cried. I cried just because I wanted to buy something we used to call fan ice. Wanted to buy fan ice. He beat me. He beat me. Now, um, maybe because of the words my we have put in our kids. I've not experienced that with any one of them. But by virtue of that beating and many more beatings, my dad taught me contentment. Contentment, same here, cannot be taught by love. Hold on, okay, get in somewhere. You know, this is not psychology, I guess. It's real life. This is real life. I'm not talking about research that was carried out over time. This is streets. This is what I experienced firsthand. I had other friends, you know. I am a bit exposed right now when I see money. I don't see money the way other people see money, so I could see something that is not right and walk away easily. That's contentment. Sure, I'm not living on waters, but I just feel, no, this is not right.

And Otumba, to add to what you're saying, and I mean, the— I studied psychology in school and we did something called classical conditioning and operant conditioning, which is basically associating stimuli to actions and, you know, to continue or discontinue a particular behavior. And if you look at scripture, scripture says, it is the heart of the child that craziness is formed. Do you understand?

Is the rod that you use to scatter it.

Let me tell you, let me tell you, in, in every context around this conversation, I get what I'm saying. What, what, what I'm saying, look, this is it. Let me explain to you. If, if I was telling you about my, my brother's son, there is nothing, huh, See, there is nothing, there is nothing we have not done. We've sat him down. Ire, stop biting your brother. He said, I did not bite him. Ah, you are lying again. Ire, stop biting. Ire is no good. Do you know why he kept biting? He didn't know what he felt like because he was bigger than all of them and everybody had to I'm watching this series on Netflix now, Teach You a Lesson. Everybody had to, you know, Ire was big, so he could easily bully his brother, even the one that was 3 years older than him. He would. And it wasn't until he got a taste of his own medicine, and it wasn't until he knew that there is a bigger fish in this pond before he behaved himself. You see, children will stretch you. And until people— and why do people behave the way they behave? I asked somebody and I said, look, even as adults we behave differently in Nigeria than we behave outside the country. Why? Because you understand that in this place there is active consequence. So what guards everybody from moving mad is the awareness of consequence. But consequence does not— hold on, hold on.

From my own, from my own angle, you know, like you said, there are consequences. Growing up, my dad was an educationist in the military, and it was simple in the house when you're going to school. 'You have your notebooks. You by yourself count the leaves.' Yes. 'This is 20 leaves. When this 20 leaves finishes, I'll give you another one. You get the biro and a pencil.' You dare not come home with someone else's biro. Or someone else's pencil. You dare not tear the leaf from your book, no matter how much someone begs for it. Yes. So there are consequences. Like you said, those things taught us contentment. Yeah. So I come home, my biro is finished. I must show that pen. The ink must have dried down. Before I get a replacement, I can't come on with someone else's biro.

Now you give them, now give them 10, next the following week they tell you, you know, I can't dare to lose that biro or that pencil.

And when you do, I mean, you just lie down.

Of course you lie down, you lie down, you get to lie down.

I mean, you know, so these things— yes, the Bible says spare the rod and spoil the child.

That must have taught you accountability.

You know, there are so many things— asset protection.

Yes. Which money, which loving cannot teach you.

You can't buy all these. Hope you know, hope you know, because, because you are coming here now with research. Hope you know that some of this your research has sponsored and heavily manipulated by people who want to create a lawless society.

What those things taught us, you know, I think I remember at my dad's 83rd birthday, I recounted this to him. This taught us contentment, accountability. I mean, he makes you to know that, look, there's nobody coming to save me. It's home, you know. So you don't just today, like you said, you even buy a box of— in the next, they'll tell you this is not the type. It was BIC. Yes, my kids will tell you, no, I don't like this, this is the— it makes my writing— do you have that luxury then?

So remember when I was talking about spanking, I said if you must spank at all, you must have explained to them that their actions are their consequences. And I'll give you real life ex— I was beaten by my dad too. Yes, that's why you are okay. I was beaten by my dad too. I stole. So my dad does not save his money in the bank. He keeps his money in my mom's unused pots where he knows nobody will ever check. But you know, teenage boy, I was just searching everywhere. I saw money. Ah, mint. Then it was PS1. I'll take it, ₦5, ₦5 to go play PS1. And he knew because he knew how much he kept there. He didn't say anything because there was a law in our house. You don't take what does not belong to you. You don't take what does. So he was counting until I saw the end of that pot. Eh? Yes, so the day I saw the end of the pot, there was a meeting. So he asked my mom, I counted X amount of money in that pot, it's no longer there. She was like, I don't even know that you put anything there. We were sleeping, he woke us up. What happened to the money in the kineko kineko? We lied. He didn't argue because there was a law. You don't pick what does not belong to you. So Saturday After having my bath, he called me again. He was like, there is a pot here. You are the only one that knows about the pot because I know that if there's anybody to arrange this house, it is you. So who took the money? I did not take the money. So he asked my younger brother. He said, uh, he took the money. He bought this, he did that. With my wet body, he said I should lie down. No, before I lay down, he has this belt he normally hangs, you know. He said I should pick one of them. Now he beat the hell out of me that week, not just that weekend. So I was receiving beating from Saturday till the week.

For every single time you were spending money?

No, it was— he just— there was a time he beat me that I was bleeding at my back. And he said when I get to the school and They said, why am I bleeding? She said, I stole my father's money.

I love Nigeria.

Now watch this. I love Nigeria. I could get to— that's why no matter how my friends— just hold on. That's when my friends were balling, I was not envying them because I had learnt contentment. But watch this. He didn't just beat me without explaining why. I knew that there were consequences. Now, this is where I'm going to. People always attach this overexposure to force to us turning out well, but I also disagree. Some parents did not do it right, else our country wouldn't be in the situation we are today. Who raised the people embezzling money? They were beaten by their folks too. Because if we say this is the cure to this, then the solution has to be legit.

I don't agree. I don't agree. It's a different thing. It's a different thing entirely. It's a different thing entirely. So the society caused what's happening now about the rot. It has nothing to do with upbringing. It's part of it.

Yeah, it could be part of it, but it's not entirely true.

And I'll explain. It's part of it though.

I disagree. I will explain.

I will explain. And I will explain to you. So don't we see people with the best home trainings in government now that are the worst of them all? Don't we?

What I say about home training is you get the report card not when you're training them. It is when— your value is not value until it is tested.

No, so I'm saying over time. So what I'm saying is in the society, yes, we celebrate—

we cost our problems.

So this is not a political talk. Yeah, but we, the society, caused the problem that's happening right now, and I'll tell you why I said so. So, um, we all know in China, if you steal, you know what happens? You die. Consequence. We all know in, um, which other country about— there's another one that is serious consequences.

Serious consequences. Korea. North Korea.

North Korea. Yeah, we all know that one. They can put you on the chair and they just wheel you to a pit. And you just fall down, pow, and nothing will happen. That's all. Now, if we had that, if we did not celebrate thieves, thieves, we wouldn't be in this situation. And that's what I'm saying. So it's not like the people stealing, but it's just when you say, oh, when I do this, I know there's no consequence, let me do it. So you could have gotten the best beating, you could have gotten the best loving, Could have gotten the best of, oh, um, cajoling, caressing, training, and you still end up like that because you think and know for sure that there are no consequences. So it's a different thing. But I really need to understand, because what I'm saying, just answer what Apostle asked, is we need to balance it. There's a twist, and we can't shy away from that twist. If you say, oh, I'm not going to beat my boy, No, I'm not saying— hold on, hold on, hold on. For whatever reason, then there's a problem. Because my wife, if they do something, I'm like, would you— wife will say, uh, just explain calmly. Oh no. So when they now frustrate her, she will now raise her voice, and I'll say, ah, you just explain calmly. Do you understand? So I think that we need to be aware, and that's why parenting classes are Yeah, and, um, I— it's, it's, it's, it's a place to also implore churches to also do parenting classes.

Of course, from—

I'm not talking about gentle parenting, people that are very, very knowledgeable about this thing. Teach parents how to deal with children. You've got Wendy Oloke, you've got other people, you've got people that, you know, that are certified. Let them teach parents because Like I said, between the ages, the formative years, yeah, is between that age, sir, but 4 to 12.

So this is, this is the twist, you know. Right now we have people that are frustrated. Life is tough. That's where I'm going.

Yes, yes. So life is tough. In the name of corporal punishment, they take out that frustration on their children.

There's a, there's Clear difference between you just beating a child and discipline. I'm still holding on to the fact that a lot of people who says they receive beating from their parents, they don't turn out well. Trust me, sir, they do not.

Can I just say something? Sometimes it's a kind of beating that can cause psychological distance. Distance that the child feels, I must be his enemy. To have been treated like this. Like this. And there is the balance too. There is the balance of Femi Lazarus.

Who beat their wives, who beat their— as a means of— in fact, I have a case. What am I saying? I have 3 cases. This happens in Lekki. The girls, and these are high-class girls, they believe, oh, he's beating me because I need to be corrected. And when you ask the guy, must you beat her? If I don't beat her, she won't learn. Sorry, because that's his wife— girlfriend, not even wife, girlfriend. Okay, so imagine if that kind of person now marries, believes that if he doesn't beat the girl, both parties—

which home is she coming from?

These are the issues. So there are cultures. So one of the things I did for one of the things that are normal, the one, the one that really was interested in, you know, going through the, um, therapy and sessions She said she grew up to see her dad correct them that way. That is how you correct. That this is the model for— so if I, if I, if I annoy him, he has the right to beat me.

If he does not beat me, I won't change.

I won't change.

Again, it boils down to family. Family.

See, the report card of our society today is parenting.

True. And, and that tells us that the next couple of years is going to be much more chaotic.

It doesn't get better now. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And that's why, and that's why I was trying to emphasize that parenting needs to, to, to, uh, parenting needs to step up two notches. And, um, you know, like I said, you need to be able to clearly define went to engage beating as a means of correction and went to engage talking as a means of correction. My father had both. My father could wash you down with his mouth like this. In fact, you'll be crying before the beating.

You prefer to be flogged?

For me, yes.

When I was younger, I preferred to be flogged because I had tapoti.

I had that body. So in fact, sometimes I commit crime with all my full chest just because I know I'm not dying.

You know, in psychology we were taught something that you get to a point of, um, learned resistance. Yeah, of where, um, it doesn't affect you, it doesn't affect you anymore. I mean, there— and I, I think my father in his wisdom knew when to switch. You have to know, right? He knew when to switch. He knew when to switch on individual days. He knew when to switch at a total— Like, I got to a point where he just knew that you can't beat this boy again. In Yoruba, we call it "motiwakwinyeki." I had formed.

And I'm sure he knew how to toggle between you and your brother.

That's what I said. You know I said in the last episode that if you wanted to tell my brother something, tell us the same thing. He would tell my brother, Taiwo, don't go there. So for Taiwo, it's an instruction. For Kwaiyemi, it has to be a warning, a threat. Do you understand? And for, for, for time, there are times when I knew that I'll do this stuff, Daddy will flog me, but would do it anyways. And then when I—

sorry, please, that's where it becomes dangerous. Even in religion, yeah, there are people that get to the point where they say You know what? I'm ready to go to hell.

Yeah. Is it not hellfire?

Is that hell? Let's go now.

They may not know what it feels like, but having experienced what they have experienced, yeah, they're like, let me do what I have to do. Let me do it.

And I get it. And at that point, it's no longer that they are not aware of the repercussions now. They are not ignorant of the repercussions. They've embraced the repercussions. They are looking forward to it. So it comes to a point where something snaps in the mind of people where you must gauge it. You must gauge it. It's like you're driving a car and you're driving a manual car. You must know when to transmit gear. If not, you burn out the clutch, you burn out the engine. That's part of parenting skill, knowing when to switch. Yeah, knowing when to switch. And I remember there was a time when if they corrected me for anything in the house or maybe my father flogged me, everybody in the house will feel it. I would keep my list with everybody. I've kept my list of 2 months before. And so my father knew how to beat me for the punishment, for the beating or whatever it is I did. He didn't— he could not beat me out of malice. You understand? I just don't feel like talking to anybody. What's the crime in that? So I will punish them for him punishing me, right? And One day, I can't forget, my father just called me one day. He just called me. He was, he was, he was sitting on the toilet seat in his, in his master bedroom. He was pooping. He just called me, said, 'Oh, Femi, wah, come.' I'm sure before he called me, now thinking of it as a parent too, you don't think, can't think, can't think, come. Yeah, he don't— he just— he was pooping, he just said He had his pants down his leg like this, white pants. I can't forget. He just called me. It was more like a guy. We'll talk. He said, why do you keep malice?

Oh, I don't know.

He said, I don't keep malice.

And I said, no, okay.

And that works. And that worked. Like, it was the first time we ever had a conversation about it. He just called me, he said, he said, he said it in Yoruba.

And I know the way he said, the way he talk.

I said, he beg. See, and that was it. So I feel that As parents, we must trust God for the wisdom to know what works per time, the wisdom to know when one thing has stopped working. And the fact that it worked in your generation does not mean— does not mean it should work in this generation. And the fact that this generation is different doesn't mean there are some principles that are not extinct. Of course, there are some principles that are transgenerational. There are some principles that are generationally allocated. Of course, because You just have to figure out that, okay, this TikTok Gen Z AI generation, there's a way to still teach the principles of hard work, honor, contentment. And you will now have to speak it in a language that they will understand. Because now you are trying to communicate the same thing, but if you try and communicate it the same way, you get it all wrong.

You might get it wrong. I'm heading somewhere.

There are some things that must be communicated the same way.

I, I remember an episode that happened to me in secondary school. I went to a public secondary school, right, where you have 120 students in a class, no windows. You can always fly through the windows. And whenever you offend the teacher, they call all male teachers to beat you. Now I'm thinking about the bad guys in my school. There are several times that they'll call all male teachers to beat them. Talking about the fact that you get used to something, it doesn't have any impact on you.

Those guys didn't turn out well.

If beating is a yastick of turning out well in life, then it would have worked on them.

Okay, hold on, sir.

I'm not saying beating is—

hold on, I want you to get my point. I've understood it. Okay, yeah, your point is right here. Okay, I want us to examine something. So I just remembered while he was speaking, I remembered what you said, that you told your child whatever happened 'Come home.' I think Apostle mentioned it during the week. So when my wife got home, because when she was asking, 'Oh, how was Apostle?' I said, 'It was fine, it was okay.' I didn't want to spill anything.

So she said, 'Apostle even mentioned that.' You were not vulnerable.

I said, 'Apostle even mentioned.' So she said, 'Apostle even mentioned that there was one of you that said Whatever happens, come home. I say, ah, yes, na, shibi, we held together though. Now, my father had a different opinion. If you bring shame to the house, don't come home. Don't come home. Don't come home. And I'll tell you, so I remembered I went to one of the model colleges in Lagos, was a boarding house. Went to steal chicken in the school poultry.

Hello! For the first time, I now feel you deserved those beatings. Apostle, I was hard.

I know I was hard. Dear me. I know I was hard. So like I told you, I had 4 older sisters. Yeah. That I took pleasure in beating. I'll sit down and I'll rejoice. Yeah, the man. That's— yes, that's the— that was the only way I could, I could mark the territory. Because you're— so I thought, so I thought. So we tied the security man. You tied? Oh yes, we tied him.

At what age? I was in SS.

I was in SS2.

That should be 13, 14, 15-ish.

So we tied him.

He reached Femi Lazarus.

So it was an open litter poultry. So they had rooms for different chicken. We were the ones taking care of the chicken. So we knew the route, we knew the area, we had prepared for it. It was a mission we planned. So we tied the gate man, we went in, we took the chicken. I think we took about 3 or 4. It was nearing, um, the holiday, so we wanted to just feast, you know. So we, we couldn't do all, so we agreed we're going to return one. So we went back. So I wasn't part of the return team, so I didn't go. To return, because it was the people that returned that they were able to, I think, pick faces or something. So they caught one person and the person had to recount, oh, it was this, this, this, this, this person, and they listed names. And your name was there, number one.

How my name didn't make that list till— like, we lived the same life till tomorrow.

I cannot explain. So this is what happened for everyone that participated in that, and they published their names. They suspended them. Not only that, they had to come from home to write exam. It was a lot of punishment, and some of them were wondering, ah, was this guy not there? You know, they were, you know, but I knew why they were compiling that name. Those names, and I prayed a silent prayer.

God, you know that I will not go home if this happens.

If this is how my life will end, so be it. I'm not proud to say I wouldn't have gone home. I would have probably jumped into Tordmelland or something. Guess what? One of the people they suspended didn't get home, killed himself. That's a kind of parenting. Wow, that's a kind of parenting. See, my father made us understand, instead of you to bring shame to me, kill yourself.

Don't come home. In, in every honesty, Otumba, in every honesty, I I think I give kudos to my dad. The guy get crazy, but I get crazy too for it. And I think that I turned out this way because I had a crazy father. Ask anybody about Dr. Oke of Osun State College of Education. He was my dad's student. Ask him. I know I have a father that I won't be a da. And at the same time, he was able to balance it with this loving side. And the foundation for his discipline was love. Love! Were there times he went overboard? Yes. But we knew, we knew that Daddy loves us. So I think the foundation that— once the foundation of love— and I've seen Apostle talk about this before. Yeah. You were correcting one of your protégés who you gave some authority to, and she was disciplining some people under her. Yeah. And you were beginning to sense rebellion, and you called her, you said, look, I have the right to deal with these people the way you see me deal with them. Because I have deposited love inside them. For anybody that you have not deposited love into, you do not have a right to correct them. Because you produce rebellion. Because you produce rebellion.

That's what I'm talking about. The foundation of discipline—

that's what Uncle Femi is trying to say— the foundation of discipline has to be love. I remember one day that my father— I got to as a new body now student, and the they had not, so I was still wearing my mufti. Uh, uh, I don't know if the man is still alive. Mr. Falowo was the senior boarding house master. And you know, my father lectured in the College of Education, so many of the teachers in our school were students of my dad. And my dad's course was the core course, so for you to graduate, you must go through my dad. And they didn't give me my cutlass, my broom, and this was stuff that we had paid for. And remember, it's a boarding house, so they will flog us, um, hostel every morning for not having those things. So for a mid-time break, long break, I'll tell my dad that Mr. Falowa has not given me broom and cutlass and they are flogging me every day. And then my father followed me for resumption the way he usually did, and then he went to go and meet Mr. Falowa and he said, Mr. Falowa, this is my son. He said, ah, I know him. He said You have not given him cardigan, broom. I will go to Mr. Falawa's office like this, I will see broom, cutlass, o and cardigan, and he will not give me my own. So I reported him to my father, and my father came, and my dad was so cool with him, and he said, sir, please, um, this boy said you have not given him o, cutlass, and they are beating him in the assembly, in the hostel. Every morning, ejueba and fun, please give him. And then as Mr. Falowa's village people would have it that day for him, his response was, ah, you don't know these children, he has collected it and misplaced it. My father said, one, the fact that— he said, the fact that you made that statement shows how foolish you are. So people that knew my dad was already holding him, he said, one, that's two insults in one. Said, one, you called my child a liar. Said, Okoyemi can be careless, he can be destructive, but he will never lie. And then when you now go ahead to now say I don't know my child, second insult. Oh, I can never forget that day. And this person, this Mr. Falawa, was a retired soldier. It took like, it took Mr. Akintola, Mr. Fagunbi, Mr. Fatola, and Mr. Akiokun to hold my father. He was going to kill him. And Mr. Falawa was the senior boy, the next master that everybody feared. My father now said, "Tomba bi e da." Talking to him that if they born you well, don't give this boy all that is due, and let me hear that you are victimizing him. That's when you will know that I senior your headmistress. Wow. And truly, truly, my dad senior our headmistress. Interesting. And till I put it to you, sir, Till I finished, if I'm coming like this, Mr. Femi Lazarus will go like this. I don't know whether he had intentions of going like this before. Till I graduated, the man avoided me. And it was this same father that fought for me like this, took me one day by the trouser and said, I will feed you rat poison, you will die.

What was the meaning of that?

You are not the only child I have. Yeah. And he told me one day after I had frustrated him He grabbed me by the hand, he put me, he threw me inside his car and he said he's taking me to Ayeso Prison by himself. Because the way you are going, you will end up in prison. I will not waste time, I will take you there myself. I beg, I beg. So I feel that when children grow up in an environment where they know that there is no father figure to instill discipline, the wrong word, and research has proven it, data has proven it. There was a conservatory that they needed to move the elephants because they were being predated upon. And they said, okay, you know what, let's take the mother elephants and the baby elephants first. They are smaller. We will come back for the male elephant. And if you know elephants, they are gentle giants. An elephant will not just charge at you for no cause. So they took the baby elephants and they took the mother elephants to another conservation. And you know what happened? The baby elephants, not even the mother elephants, started oppressing every other animal in that jungle. They were stomping them, bullying them, cussing them. They became— and they were not like that where they were coming from because there was no male. And then somebody— they had to bring another researcher or whatever to— what's the problem? Is it the grass they are eating here? Is it the water? He said, no, it's simple. The fathers are missing.

There are no male elephants there.

So they went back immediately, earlier than they planned, to go and bring back the father elephant. Immediately the father elephant came, that nonsense stopped. Sorry to cut you. So I'm coming. We have a world whereby the male figure is being systematically removed from society. Yeah. And that's why we have so much chaos. And that's why I was tackling your research, and I don't mean to They base the academic climate.

So we have to start bringing this conversation to a close. And I want to do this as we close because it's about 2 hours already. Ah. I want the two most experienced men here to speak to the men because this is As we celebrate Men's Mental Health Awareness Month, men who are going through life, and amazingly, for amazing reasons, both of you have experienced the ups and downs. You've been bereaved, you've known the pain, the heals, and, you know, the journey to healing and all that. So if you could take turns Um, speak to the men who are going through those things right now and are about to throw in the towel, and maybe also a short word of advice.

Men cry. Men, they cry. Men feel You don't need to be as strong as you think you are. You need to express yourself once in a while. You need to build community. I will say maybe I'm lucky. Were boys in my house, so we're able to hold forts for each other. Let's build a community where you can be naked and not ashamed, where you will be able to tell your fellow brother, it's not easy with me today. You'll be able to bear out your mind, I mean, and someone will say, guy, I got you. It's hard out there, but trust me, when we have this kind of people that can hold space for us. That's all you need. Apostle knows one of my younger brothers. That's all I heard when I was passing through When I lost my wife, he was there. Guess what? He's the last. Um, much more older than him, but he was there. So you just need someone to hold space for you, to let you know that, look, It's okay to cry. It's okay to feel. You need to get those things off your chest at every point in time. And guess what? Trust God. For me as an individual, one of the things I've seen in my journey is that at every bend God shows up. So don't lose faith. It's just a turn. The journey won't end there. Trust God. Trust God. Build community, and God will reward that. Your hard work, those things that you've dreamt of, you wake up each day and wish for your children, for your family, for— God will make it come through. Don't give up.

Thank you. Wow, I feel like saying let's give him a round of applause.

Thank you, sir. Okay, thank you, sir.

Um, I'd like to say to men out there, it's okay to be naked. It's okay to be naked. Um, and I'm going to draw us to a scripture that says, many are the afflictions not of the sinners, not of the scornful, not of the strangers, of the righteous.

But why?

But he left, left us with a promise that the Lord God delivered them from them all, all, not some. So I was trying to explain on Sunday when I gave a short speech that it's all about understanding what they call phase. Um, people go through phases. Yes, whatever you're going through Just like I was sharing before the podcast with Apostle Abi, with, um, I said there's a saying that I have and I usually say, a child of God can never be stranded. All we need to do as men is to draw strength from the word of God. Just draw strength per day, per time. Draw strength. And I'm sure that the knowledge from God, the undiluted wisdom of God, is all that you need in whatever you are going through. Be strong, be courageous. You have dreams, pursue it. You fall down, stand up. Avoid pity parties. Regrets for me are usually a waste of time. You fall, stand up, dust yourself, move on. Don't count the steps. You count the steps, you waste time in forging ahead. And I know that as we submit ourselves to the constant teachings from Apostle and other men of God, it will work. It will work for you. In Jesus' name. Thank you. Wow.

Can I just give a gentle counsel? Yeah, um, a minute, one minute. You see, there is a reason why Mama Lan Lord de plenty pass Baba Lan Lord, and it's because Baba Lan Lord don't die, especially in Ibadan. Baba is dead. Um, dear man, Take care of yourself. When you're done taking care of everybody, don't forget to take care of yourself. Eat well. You fed everybody. Feed well. Feast. Take time out to rest. Shut down. Go somewhere. Switch off your phone. Because when you die, If you die and when you die, life goes on. On the day of your obituary, people will still eat. Take time. Now, this is not about you being selfish. When you've taken care of everybody and you've done the responsibilities that both the one that is due and the one that is undue, rest, eat well, go for health check. Is not anti-manly. It's not unmanly to go for a full health check. Tell a doctor, check my eyes, check my heart, check my blood level. Eat good food, eat well, drink good drinks so you can live longer. Take care of the engine that is doing the work. It's not unmanly.

Thank you. So you mean it's 2 minutes? They've said valid stuff to men, so I want to say something to the society. You know, the scripture says, if the foundation is destroyed, what can the righteous do? We read that scripture in the context of maybe my personal life and all of that, but it's— it addresses societal issue. I believe that man is the foundation of the society. When God created, want to start um, human beings. It started with a man, then made woman later. So man is the foundation of the family, of the society. If the man is faulty, everything is messed up. The issues we are dealing with today in our society can be traced to the absence of men or to the presence of dysfunctional men. So if we don't address the issue of men, of man, of fathers, then our society will keep getting messed up. So it's time we take care of our men. So if you have a man around you, a father, a boy child, please take care of them. Thank you.

Wow, amazing, amazing. Maybe if there's a word I will give is Before you die, live. Um, sometimes many people just, because of the presence of all the troubles, all the cares, forget to live. They're not in touch with reality, no good memory in themselves. Everything is about what you're doing for people or what you're trying to achieve. Truly live while you're here with us. And that also means, like Kemi King said, stay alive. Don't throw in the towel. Get a good community. God still helps and he uses men. I want to thank everybody for this conversation today, for despite your busy schedule, because how we've been able to gather everyone like this, I don't know. Thank you for the second appearance on Declassified. Thank you.