WHAT HAPPY COUPLES DO DIFFERENTLY

I was the kind of guy my mom wonder about. I said, when you see this kind of boys, avoid them.

I cried when I heard God that he was my husband.

And I have to say this, particularly looking at the fact that he was popular on campus.

Yes, he was gorgeous. That was exactly why I did not want.

What kind of a man do you call gorgeous? Oh my God, that was the reason why you didn't want?

I didn't want him. I told him no instantly.

So can we— could it mean that people get married based on their religious inclination?

Oh yes, sir.

Only to get into the marriage and then you're not satisfied.

You just, you just start seeing what you now like.

Yes, sir.

Then your spouse, your spouse starts, you know, you start resenting your spouse. You said yes to the spouse, you went after the spouse.

Are you saying that there are people who are in marriages right now and they live every day through regret?

Oh yes, definitely. A lot. Plenty.

That most Christian, um, brothers married it because the lady's tongues is hard. Yes, and her steps are very light. I like, I like this lady, can pray well. Let me marry her. But when you marry, eventually you will understand it is beyond prayer. Prayer is powerful, but to make marriage work, it is not just prayer.

For those who are living everyday regret, what should they do?

That's a very powerful question. Now, the things that make marriage work are not the things people focus on mostly. Actually, in fact, there are specific things that people ignore that those are the core when it comes to marriage. Most times what you think is the problem is not always what the problem is.

Problem?

Yes, sir.

So marital problem masquerades as something else. So until you open the veil you now find what the real problem is.

Issue is—

I remember one counseling we had where we were trying to get to the root of the issue. So we attempted everything, the conversation was stopped, only to discover it was because they were not having sex well. Because see, there's something about sex in marriage. The moment we don't get a few things right, things can get—

it still boils down to vulnerability.

Vulnerability.

They even carry religion into the bed.

They said, how was it? He said, we thank God. What, what is it to thank God for? How was it?

Glory Glory to God.

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One of the first things that, you know, the moment I saw that we're going to have you on Declassified, that I pen down to ask you And I want to share a story behind this question. Years ago, I was in an event where I saw a man that was in his old age but sick and frail. The wife was feeding him, and right there around that table, he received at least 5 dirty slaps. Wow, could see the disdain. In fact, she slapped him so hard he threw up.

Wow, wow.

So I've seen the issue of domestic violence from both sides.

Yes, sir.

I've seen women who get so abused, their clothes to be torn by the husband. Sent out, ridiculed, embarrassed publicly. What should— I'm going to ask you from the perspective of the lady, and I ask you from the perspective of the man. What should a woman do? She find herself in the midst of domestic abuse.

In the midst of domestic abuse?

Yes. A man, or she's been— she's now— she's married to a man who is abusing her?

The first thing is consider life. Yes, life. Domestic abuse has a way— it's, you know, there are boundaries of, um, what's it called, more like boundaries. The moment there's a slap today, oh, okay, we've slapped, we can go further, you know, we can exert more, you know, pressure, you know, to prove a point. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, it has this rage it comes with.

Yeah.

So the first thing is life. Yeah, no, consider life first. Leave the area, leave the vicinity. Yeah.

And this is so important because I, I know you also, beyond helping married couples, yeah, you also have young ladies choose. Yeah, rightly.

Yeah.

Or have that wisdom when they are dating. How can a girl identify a potential abuser?

Oh, it's always very obvious, always very obvious.

Yeah.

In their conversations, you know, relationships work this way where you're going out with somebody, you're going to go through different day-to-day activities. Yeah. How does this person act when he's angry?

Yeah.

How does this person react to disappointments? How does this person react to frustration?

Yeah.

You know, and these are blueprints that you can see. If they are not conversations that you can sort in a relationship, you'll meet it in marriage. And marriage has a way— it— marriage is like a magnifying glass.

Yeah.

You— it magnifies it all, you know, because now there's nothing to be careful about. So everything you have seen in seedling or in seed form, you see it in— you it in harvest for me, marriage. So the signs are always there.

Yeah, you want to contribute to that?

Yeah, you know, I also feel that, um, sometimes people ignore the signs, you know, and that's what we call the butterfly stage in the relationship, when emotions are on the high, you know, um, fantasy stage. Yeah, you know, so when emotions are on the high and, um, they can almost see the handwriting on the wall, you know, particularly at the beginning stages. They just choose to ignore it. Sometimes people keep believing it will get better, um, he will change. And, um, yeah, we've had, you know, maybe situations where people change, but they are very rare situations. The probability is very low.

Very low.

Yeah, very, very low. So I wouldn't really advise that anyone should go on a lifelong journey on a probability that is probably—

I mean, that's what the relationship is for. It's not a training ground, so to say. It's a— it's more like an interview view. You're coming to see, you're coming to— okay, how can we work? Can our values align? Um, uh, are we, are we good with what we are seeing? Okay, for good, then let's, let's make it forever. Let's, let's go ahead.

It's a rehearsal of marriage.

Marriage.

And if it is not working, we can say all right, the rehearsal is not working, then why go to the final stage?

You know, the— what's it called now? Like producing the movie itself. Yeah. It's not working.

What about for cases of girls who feel that I've stayed single for so long, no man came around, and now that this person is here, I don't know if I let him go, I don't know if somebody else will come. About that kind of—

I mean, this is usually one of the major reasons why people get married, man, do marriage wrongly because of that pressure. And really, I'm really— it's really a painful thing for a woman to go through that phase because of the pressure that comes with it. And all. But then it's still that— it's, it's the way we've grown up, seeing marriage as the ultimate, you know, fulfillment for a woman. A woman shouldn't have to live with that pressure that marriage is everything, I must get married at a certain age. And this is what makes us— makes them rather— or makes us make that kind of mistake of choosing wrongly, even when you can see the signs. It still doesn't justify choosing wrongly. Yeah, it doesn't.

I feel it is just best to just get it right once and for all, because if you choose wrongly, you will still, you know, come back to a point where you just feel like this thing is not—

it's your marriage, it's your life. Yeah. And this is forever. Yeah. You still have to still take your time.

From where you stand, what you do The quality of conversations you've had, pedigree, um, can you walk us through how, from both gender, both sides, how you can identify a person not to do life with?

Ah, that is broad. I mean, yeah, it is very broad. Yeah, because, you know, It takes too many things, too many things. And the sad truth about this question is that sometimes, um, in a relationship, because emotions are high, there's fantasy. All right, so we say that at those points, or in a relationship, butterflies are still flying. But eventually the butterflies will settle in marriage. Ah, yes, sir. So the things that— now step into reality, you step into reality stage. So the things you should have seen but you did not see because emotions are high, you know, the butterflies are flying, you will eventually see them.

Wow.

Yeah, so sometimes it takes a lot of attention, a lot of patience to be able to identify the red flags and really name them for what they are.

For a woman, yeah, or let me say, if I'm to put myself in that vicinity, right, what should I— if I see this, what are the things I should see that would make me know that I can't do life with this person? Someone that doesn't have what he's chasing, so to say, someone that doesn't have a vision.

Powerful.

No vision. Nothing is chasing you, you're not chasing anything. There's nothing flowing through your veins asides blood. There's no, you know, nothing is waking you up apart from, you know, there's, there's no passion, no vision. Yeah. I don't think any woman should do life with that kind of man.

Powerful.

Because marriage is a place where you know, two people are coming together to actually chase something. If you're not chasing something, marriage is boring. Yes, marriage is boring. So okay, if we're now married, what should— what should we be talking about? What should we do? So someone who is not— who doesn't have that, who doesn't have a vision, something is pursuing, I don't think any woman should do life with that kind of person.

Wow.

Because what you're pursuing frames your discipline, frames your character, frames your, frames your, your mindset. So why should I be loyal to my wife? Why should I, why should I, why should I be intentional with my family? It's not because of vision, basically. So a man who is not chasing anything—

you want to speak from the perspective of the man?

Yes.

So I feel that for a man if I were to be getting married now, all right, what are the things I'm going to consider? Um, I feel in recent time, all right, things like, um, kindness— and these are things we play down on in marriage— kindness, things like kindness will take priority over beauty, over curves. Yeah, you know, because the world around us want us to believe that, um, you get front, you get back, that surely you are a wife material. But I mean, you know, um, I haven't spent years, um, married myself. Things like kindness, because, you know, those are the things we really value— kindness, um, Patience.

Yeah.

And this may sound, um, a little selfish, but someone who really loves me. Because see, I feel that when men wants to pick the choice of a wife, they don't consider, does this lady love me?

They consider who they love.

They consider who they love. But on the long run, what you need is not really somebody you love. Is someone that loves you. Wow. Yes, sir. Is that— is that—

is that what you need? Is that somebody you love? Because the other person too wants someone that loves them.

Okay, okay. So I feel that that's the, the, um, balance. Yeah, the person must also love you, love you, you know. But you know, I'm talking like for the average guy now, the decision is based on, okay, I love her, I like this, I like that. But now, yeah, it shouldn't stop there because most times guys don't consider Does she love me?

Yeah.

How does she really feel about me? When I— okay, let's say there's no money, all right, you know, take all of this, you're gonna know. Yeah. Will she be there with me? Because in our marriage, yeah, I'm, I mean, when we got married, even eventually there was a phase we had where, you know, things were pretty bad, you know. At some point we had to, you know, eat, um, our students' food and all of that.

But she was—

yes, I mean, the, um, baby's food. Femi Lazarus, baby, please, you, you have eaten enough.

You took it like golden moon. Yes, sir.

I mean, we just add it and she was there. We ate it together.

Did your love grow stronger in that season?

Yes, sir. In fact, those were the moments that built us, that now, you know, it doesn't matter. Yeah, you know, and that's what I'm trying to say, that You need to also pick someone that you love because, yeah, for example, sir, um, during COVID was when marriages in this country went to— I mean, major test.

The stats shows it.

Yes, sir. When the legal year resumed after COVID, that's true, there were diverse divorce petitions.

Yeah, yeah.

Because people were kept in the same house, the same room, and they just felt like, what did I marry? Like, what are we—

Finally they were coming to the realization of what they married. And I think many people escape what they married through work.

Yes, yes. And that's so powerful, sir. Yes, sir. That's beautiful.

They burn themselves out at work.

Yeah.

So they can escape the reality of who they have married.

Yes.

Powerful.

Yes, sir.

Wow.

Yes. Wow. You know, this thing you're saying about, um, marrying someone who loves you.

Yes, sir.

I think, um, one of the mistakes anybody have made in that regard is the assumption that once it is the will of God, there's no point checking other things. Oh, it is the will of God, it's the will of God, there's no point. And then they ignore all the things Well, do you think attraction plays a major role in terms of longevity of a marriage?

Yes, attraction is, I mean, very, very, very vital because I feel the issue with the will of God is that people marry people they don't love in the claim that God said so, and they hope that they will fall in love with the person later. Wow. But we found out that sometimes it doesn't happen because— how do I even explain this— when people get saved, their minds didn't get saved.

True, true.

So this is what I mean. If I used to like a fair lady before I gave my life to Christ, became a, you know, believer, I still love fair ladies. So if you give me a dark girl, that is not my spec. Yeah, do you understand what I'm trying to say, sir? You can relate, right? We're both married to Femi Lazarus. But do you understand now? So people now ignore their preferences. Yeah, because God said so.

I mean, that's just religion. And the point now is, did God say so?

Yes, because, you know, we need to even question the hearing.

Because I have— why I'm asking that is because Because when I was— before I got married to him, right, I, I, I liked a certain kind of guys, and I discovered it was not what I liked, it was what religion taught me to like.

And that's so powerful.

So for me, yes, I liked guys— you can look fine and I would like you.

She loves ugly guys. The guy has to be ugly because people like me, cleanly shaved, we are bad boys.

Yes, sir. So when I heard God that this was my husband, I knew I heard God. You can't wear fitted clothes around me. I was SU, I was no makeup, no hair.

You know, I, I, I, I, I knew you before you got married. Yes, I used to sneak into their meetings. Yes, I, I just love to attend services where I will not be recognized as a pastor.

Wow.

So then she was pastoring in Moro.

Yes, yes, sir.

So yes, I just go there, just sit down. Wear my cap, sometimes come with shotmaker around neck, and then just sit down. And I'm hearing this for the first time.

Yes, I was the kind of guy my mom wonder about. I say, when you see this kind of boys, avoid them.

He was not— it took— I cried when I heard God that he was my husband.

And I have to say this, particularly looking at the fact that he was popular on campus.

Yes, he was gorgeous. That was exactly why I did not want—

what kind of a man do you call gorgeous? Oh my God, that was the reason why you didn't want—

I didn't want him. I told him no instantly.

So can we— could it mean that people get married based on their religious inclination?

Oh yes, sir.

Only to get into the marriage and then you're not satisfied.

You just, you just start seeing what you now like.

Yes, sir.

Then your spouse, your spouse starts, you know, you start resenting your spouse.

You said yes to the spouse, you went after the spouse, Are you saying that there are people who are in marriages right now and they live every day through with regret?

Oh yes, definitely, a lot.

Plenty. That most Christian, um, brothers married because the lady's tongues is hard. Yes.

And her steps are very long.

I like, this lady can pray well, let me marry her. But when you marry, eventually you will understand it is beyond prayer. Prayer is powerful, but to make marriage work, it is not just prayer.

So this is what religion teaches, that prayer substitutes, um, wisdom. And Bible never— the Bible we claim we are quoting, never— they're not substitutes, they are partners.

Yeah, yeah.

Wisdom and spiritual growth, prayer and counsel, they are, they are together. Yeah. They are partners, so we shouldn't take one and leave the other. No.

For those who are living everyday regret, what should they do?

That's a very powerful question. Now let's just pick up from here that, um, one of the things we need to really emphasize, that the things that make marriage work are not the things people focus on mostly. Actually, we have found out in our things that makes marriages work. Yes, sir.

And other things we'll focus on.

No, sir.

Yes, sir.

In fact, there are specific things that people ignore that those are the core when it comes to marriage working. And, you know, we've had conversations around this, myself and my wife, in our counseling rooms. We've seen people who— because most times the problem, or what you think is the problem, is not always what the problem is.

Yes, sir.

So marital problem masquerades as something else. So until you open the veil, you now find what the real problem is. For example, something as simple as intentionality. Yeah, I mean, this is what we have discovered. Attracted to her because you don't like the way she looks, dresses, you know, she talks.

Why can't you just tell her?

Vulnerability. People don't want to be vulnerable. If you can't be vulnerable in marriage, you cannot get the best out of your spouse. You can't. You have to be vulnerable enough to look stupid.

Yes.

So telling your wife that I don't want you on cornrows, I want you on long wigs—

and that's so powerful—

telling your husband, can you keep your beard some more? Can you wear body hogs?

Can you talk about the case of a man that has mato do?

Oh yes, like I said, vulnerability.

Who will be vulnerable at this point? Both of them.

Both of them have to be vulnerable because the woman becomes careful.

Because if I tell him—

if she's too careful, she's going to, she's going to stay in resentment and the attraction will start waning off. So she has to— there's always a better way to say something.

Yes. And, and, and, and that would just lead us to a lot of other things. For example, what you said now, that there's a better way to say something, that will lead us to tone. That's something we found out has caused a major issue. In marriage to her, that I can tell you your food is on the dining— I can tell you your food is on the dining— that what? Yeah, what affects how you feel with what I say is not really what I'm trying to say to you, it is how it was communicated. And these are the simple things that if we can just handle these things, I mean, the change will be drastic. It will be like night and day.

Yes, sir.

That I can tell you, baby girl, I'm going out, and I can say, baby girl, I'm going out.

I'm going home.

I'm going home. That one communicates love and understanding because of the tone, and the other can say, eh, go if you want to go, just because of the way it is communicated.

And that is communication. The person that the onus is on to communicate, to pass information, is on the sender, not the receiver.

And that's okay.

It is what you send that the person is receiving. So you are intentional with what you're sending. You're checking your tone, you're checking your words, you're, you're, you're being empathic too. Like, okay, how would I want someone to say this to me? And these are these even places where you even say it.

Yes, I feel these are the foundational things that couples must understand because now, you know, we've been in, um, I remember one counseling we had where, you know, we We were trying to get to the root of the issue, sir. We attempted everything. The conversation was locked, only to discover it was because they were not having sex well. Because see, there's something about sex in marriage. The moment we don't get a few things right, things can get a little—

It still boils down to vulnerability.

Vulnerability. Because it takes vulnerability to, to explain what you are doing is not entering where it's supposed to enter. I'm not feeling it. It takes a lot of vulnerability. If not, because people spend years of their marriage, 20 years, and during their sex life they even carry religion into the bed. They said, how was it? He said, we thank God. What, what is it to thank God for?

How was it? Glory to God.

What is it? I mean, how was it? We bless God.

It was powerful.

Are you saying that they should not speak in tongues for this? That You don't encourage that.

We don't encourage you pray 24 hours.

Except you are fighting a demon.

It will kill the mood of the sex. All right, I mean, so there's just so much, and that's why I said that some questions are not yes or no, they are very broad. Yeah, you know, the, the, the answer is broad. For example, sex in marriage If you are not vulnerable, yeah, you won't have a good sex life. You can't. And, and that is an absolute statement that is true, because some women want some things.

The both parties have to be shameless. You drop ego, you drop pride, you drop conservativeness, you drop honor, you drop honor.

You can't say, baby, the way you are saying I should be faster, I don't like it. Ah, you will not have a good sex life.

Please, sir, be faster.

Please, sir. Please do it for— ah, you won't have a good sex life.

Vulnerability.

You don't call me baby, I'm your lord.

So there's just too much we need to get right, and sometimes religion, you know, has hampered a lot of things.

In the midst of this, I'm seeing what you're saying, and you know, a lot more.

Yes, sir.

One of the questions on my mind right now is Why do people marry who they can't be vulnerable with?

It's basically people— what's this thing you normally say, um, doing something to please people that don't— what's that thing? Doing things you don't like to please people who don't like you, who you don't know, something like that. It's basically what people would say, what, what I look like, you know. Um, I'm marrying this lady so that they can see me as a very strong, powerful— I'm saying yes to this guy so that, um, it's basically societal pressure. Because if you're not doing it for yourself, then you're doing it for someone else. Yeah, basically.

You know, there's, there's something I always say, that if many— if marriages will be like football, where people can have halftime, you can choose to go second half, everybody walk away, not many people come back.

Yes, sir.

To who they have married.

Yes, absolutely.

If your marriage is like that, and there is halftime. Will you marry each other again?

Yes, over and over again.

I mean, absolutely. She's been the absolute love of my life. I mean, genuinely, I would do it again without thinking.

Again?

Yeah.

Yeah.

How does that make you feel?

Makes me feel loved. See, I feel that it's not just that I love her, you know. When you know someone loves you too, you know. One day I woke up and I caught my wife looking at me.

It scared me.

I mean, she was just looking at me like, ah, Femi, how fine, you know.

I've seen my wife do that.

Wow, beautiful.

I was just, you know, admiring you, say you are so fine. I say, ah, you know, you know. So it is a beautiful thing, and I feel this department don't really understand. Loving someone is beautiful, but you also, you need to be loved, sir. I mean, you need to be loved. Now we must open up to receive that love.

Wow.

Yes, we must.

It's not just on a man. A lot of women are looking for men that love them, but they don't want to give love, and they're looking for who will spend on them, not who loves them. So it's still on the part of the woman too. So eventually you get married and you're now stuck with provision, which is what you went after, but there's no love. So it happens with women too.

True, because, you know, we need to also understand that in this age, marriage has become grossly transactional.

Highly transactional. Ah, highly transactional.

Very transactional.

What can you bring? What do you—

what are you bringing?

What are you bringing to the table?

What do you have? Who are you? And so people who enter transaction marriage, I mean, should not expect, wow, love in that sense, because it's all about, okay, how much can you be giving me monthly? If I marry you.

And marriage is usually over when what started it stops.

And that's so powerful. That's probably one of the most powerful things you've said today.

Marriage is more—

what? Marriage is more or less over whenever what started it stops. So if I get married to you because of your money and you don't have— you know, something happens, life, you know, and then there's no more money is usually— it usually takes a miracle to keep that marriage.

It takes what started to sustain it.

Sustain it. When they have this, when they start out as, you know, um, this quality time people, they spend a lot of time together, seeing every day. The first shaking of their marriage could be if the man travels or the woman travels. The moment there's a distance like this, the, the marriage starts going through this storm, you know. Whatever started the relationship is usually what sustains So if it's transactional, yeah, and that's why a lot of them are crashing these days because of the transaction, you know. Oh, I'm getting married to you because you're popular. I'm getting married to you because you have money. Well, I'm getting married to you, and then women are under pressure. You do surgery to maintain what the man saw when he came, you know. What started it has to sustain it.

I've seen this problem. I mean, you guys have said many profound things.

Thank you, sir.

With people getting married to individuals who didn't want to stay married.

Yep.

People you have married and you see this as your life, we've got to build a home, but the person you are married to doesn't care. Doesn't care if it ends, doesn't care if it breaks, doesn't care if anybody walks away. It's just a walk in the park. What should a person married to such a person do?

This is it. These people have to be open to counsel, sir.

Get counsel.

Get counsel.

But there are those who believe that once you're a Christian, you don't need a therapist.

Like I said, substitution. You can't substitute spiritual growth for wisdom or godly counsel. They go hand in hand. Even the Bible says it, that seek wisdom if you don't have. Ask God for wisdom. Well, so that in where there are so many counsels, there's safety. So the reason why— yes, the reason why you're going through that storm is because you don't have counsel. The person involved might not even know what marriage is. What is marriage? What are we even in? What are we doing? So counsel will sort all this issue. Therapy will sort it. Counseling will sort it, you know, where you, you are seated and then you are being taught what it means to be married. What does marriage mean? What does it mean? What, what do I stand to gain, so to say, being married to this person? What are my— what are my advantages? They just have to be taught. Sometimes people just see it, light just comes and they're like, oh, so this is what I'm supposed to be doing, this is— this is why I'm married to you. And then the partner begins to look like, okay, you're not just a decision in my house, you are now a partner, you're not part of my life, we can— we can do something together.

Could this be because parenting is also failing?

Oh yes, sir. Yes, yes. Because the first image you have as a child. My husband does something to me. When we first got married, the first year we got married, our first major fight. Yeah. So I was, I was not happy with him. I wasn't happy with him. I was just, you know, and then he saw me and he tried apologizing. I was like, leave me alone, you know, initial new wife, you know. And then he laid on the floor flat and held my legs.

Ah, that's the kind of things you can do.

I was frozen. I was What's going on? I was like, ma bino. I was like, ah, stand up, stand up, stand up. So at first I was still shocked, like, okay, where did he— and then I got to his parents' house and, you know, his mom was saying some things and then, and, you know, and the dad— the mom— the dad was saying, yeah, sorry now. And I saw the dad do the exact same thing.

Wow.

And I said, this is where he saw this and all. He apologizes easily. He— we don't fight, not because I am peaceful, it's because he can apologize, and he got that from his parents. So parenting plays a huge, huge role.

And there's something, you know, I really want to ask. Let me— I'm going to give you a backstory to the question.

Yes, sir.

When myself and my wife got married, yes, sir, Um, I'm going to like put this in a coded way. We met you guys.

Yes, sir.

I remember your first visit. I'm going to tell you some things that happened. We also had two other people that were our friends.

Wow.

But it was a case where we've had to settle many marriages. Eventually the marriage crashed. Many problems, eventually crashed. So I didn't know the extent to which it was affecting our marriage, because if something— if my wife complains about something, I'll be like, what's the fuss about? At least our own is not as bad as those people. We had very clear agreements which has not been broken, to not be broken in Jesus' name.

Amen.

I won't shout on you.

Yeah.

I won't reject your food.

Yes, sir.

I will not walk out of this matrimonial bed and say no.

Yeah.

So we listen. I won't hang the call on you. It was an agreement.

Let me just mention that what you are saying now, sir, is so powerful because any marriage that will work, yes, or that is working, must have laws that operate by. And you know, as you began to mention those laws, I said This is the principle. Oh yes, any marriage that does not have loss, it means anything is possible.

Anything is possible.

Yeah, that's so powerful. I mean, that is so powerful.

Yes, so powerful.

If, if a marriage is without loss, it's like a home without fence, without fence, meaning that anyone can get in, anybody can go out. Like, you know, yeah, what, what you said now, I remember when we started to actually court was that one of the loss we had was that if I call you You, you have to pick. And if you call me too, no matter how angry, no matter what has happened, we don't ignore each other's call. Number 2, you don't drop, cut the call like you just hang up, you know. You never do that. So we had those laws and we don't walk out on each other.

Yeah.

Yes, sir. And I think, um, earlier in our relationship when I was, you know, living in that place, I don't bring ladies to my house no matter what. They don't visit me at home. I mean, that was before we got Right, because I used to have a few female friends, you know, and they used to visit me. This is beautiful. So this is a law, right, that this is a law, and we are putting in this law that no lady steps into your house, then no guy comes to visit you.

That's so powerful.

And some of those laws also, as marriage—

because we, we review them. Yes, sir, before every anniversary.

Wow, wow, that's so interesting.

I want And the reason why that is important for me, and I want to ask you a question in that regard, is because for me, a good home is an integral part of everything.

Powerful.

It's not an option.

Yes, sir. Okay.

Um, and, um, we also agree about the need to master how to have difficult conversations. We have those difficult conversations as adults I believe that it is the height of lack of intelligence when you resort to arguments with insult.

Yes, sir.

We are arguing about this not because we're enemies, because we need to get closer.

Yeah.

So the purpose of disagreement is to bring us closer.

Perfect.

That's a very fair—

no, yeah.

Now temperamentally, you are a choleric and sanguine. Yes, a sanguine choleric. Most of my friends are extrovert. So you used to trouble me. I was just talking with my wife, all my friends, uh, the extroverted people. I think because, you know, and sometimes I look at you and I'm like, you know, you are a go-getter. You just don't get things done. I've seen you call from for routines that I consider insane.

Yes, sir.

How have you done it that when it comes to your wife, you are this soft lamb? So let me tell you the backstory that I said.

Yes, sir.

The first time both of you came to visit us.

Yes, sir.

It was funny, she was pregnant then. Yes, yes. So, and in all honesty, That was my first time of seeing it.

Wow.

I saw the way you held her hands and she was climbing the staircase. In my mind I was like, 'Kenny, I beg.' I'm like, 'My wife will see this one now.' Then thank God I was the one that came down to welcome you. Then when you were going back, I saw the same thing. So then I said to myself, this is intentional. So something happened to us. We are seeing something toxic here and we're like, thank God we are not like that. But we're also seeing something very beautiful here and we're saying, this is what can be. How have you done it in such a way that Despite your all the other attributes, all the other extremes— I wouldn't even call them, I just think it's just temperamental differences.

Yes, sir.

You are able to stay this grounded, loving, soft, caring, your wife, your kids. What's that mentality like for you?

Wow, thank you, Apostle. That's a very powerful question. So this is what I'm going to say. I feel that, um, early enough I mastered that there are things that make marriage work.

Yeah.

Now one of them is effort. Now, and you know, we have taught this at, you know, several conferences, that when effort ends, marriage is about to end. Yeah, it's a matter of time. In fact, the demise of such home is a matter of when, not a matter of if.

Effort.

Wow.

That's— see, and I will try and explain this the best way I can. For a man, after a man is married, something in his head sees it as done, ticks it down, and then he's about to move on to, you know, something else. The next thing, okay, you know, what are we building? Is he business. Okay, do we need to expand to, you know, SA? Do we need to— you know, you, you, you, you are thinking. And then somehow, if care is not taken, you can almost become neglecting.

Yeah, because—

okay, so let me explain this way. When you were in a relationship, you were trying to, um, for lack of a better word, woo her. You were trying to, you know, make her love you, there were things you did intentionally. You took her on dates, you put your best foot forward, all right? You bought her things, you probably took her, traveled, and you know, you made her happy. She was your world because you were chasing. But somehow, after you got married, there's a possibility that you want to move on to some other accomplishment in life. So the implication of this is that in order for marriage to work, things that were done In— I mean, things that were done in courtship, things that were done deliberately, or things that were even done unconsciously when you were trying to get her, must now be done intentionally if the marriage will work. And that's what effort is. Because when we're courting, you know, I will hold her hands and all those things, help her with her, you know, bag and all those things, you know, look at her face. Ah, baby, you know, this your face, you know, I like this. Lipstick, you know, I mean, good, this your gown, lovely. I will take time to compliment all of those things, but there's a way marriage can be that if we don't maintain intentionality— we have two laws we can't get for making marriage work. The first is intentionality, the second is effort. When we remove these two things from marriage, you strike out intentionality, you stop it intentional, then you stop making effort. The demise of that home is a matter of when. And you know, one of the things I've even found out is that even if nothing breaks yet, yeah, that nothing is breaking yet does not mean nothing is breaking. Because yes, sir, we've been privileged to sit with, um, people who have been married for 35 years, 40 years, and this was what we discovered. Yes, talking to those folks, that, that a marriage was long Does not mean those long years were happy years. Yes, sir. People stayed in marriage because of their children.

Yeah, because of society.

They would tell you that, you know, ah.

Does it mean that we are preparing for a world where we're going to have more cases of separation? Because now people are finding more reasons. I see, I don't have to kill myself because of a child.

Choosing their truth.

Yes, sir.

Yeah, mental health.

Yes, sir. We are, we are, we might be in for something major in the years to come.

Very major.

One of the things I love about this conversation—

yes, sir—

is that I see that there's mutual honor. Um, I'm not sure till now I've seen or heard anyone teach honor like you do. Um, I think when we're even laying foundation for the way we host ministers, yes, sir, we had to call you. And, um, One of the things I've seen as complaint from most men in marriage is honor. I've been to your house and I've seen— I know when people are doing things while a guest is around. I'm a very intuitive person and I know when this is a culture in the house.

Yes, sir.

I've seen how intentional you about I've been to your service surprisingly, surprising.

Yes, sir.

And I paid attention to the settings around him. So you honor him.

Thank you, sir.

Can you just walk us through some of the importance of honor in marriage?

Okay, Apostle, let me first bring a balance to it.

Yes.

Honor. And not because it's the opposite, but there's— I want to introduce another word, friendship.

Friendship.

Yes, sir. Now, friendship can look careless, you know, in some settings, you know, but in marriage, it's a dance. Powerful. It's a dance. If you take out honor alone, and you know what is honor? Honor is preference. You know, you prefer this person.

Yeah.

Honor is reverence. You revere him. Honor is difference. You know, I set things apart. No, this is his, these are his. No, nobody touches them. Honor is different. You differentiate what this person has, you know, from, from the common, you know, they are not common, his things are not common. Yeah, but then there's a place of, there's a place of friendship, right? If you carry honor alone and you're looking at honor that, oh, I prefer you, I revere you, you know, you are, you are set apart, I honor you. There's that aspect, and that alone does not make marriage work.

They must go hand in hand.

They must go hand in hand. It's a dance. There must be a time where I'm throwing pillows at you, but my heart— honor is the state of the heart, Kai. It's a heart positioning. Powerful. That in as much as I'm playing with you and I'm throwing pillows at you and I'm jumping at you, there's still there's still this mindset that this is my husband, wow, and I honor him. And so I'm sensitive, I'm watching for cues.

Beautiful. So what makes that so powerful is because sometimes homes where they, they, they exalt honor, they lose friendship.

They lose friendship.

Yeah, true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They lose friendship.

Both must grow hand in hand.

They must go hand in hand. So it's that state of the heart. And you're looking, and there are times as a wife, I'm just observing because There are times my husband switches. Like you said, he's sanguine and choleric. Oh yes, these are two very extremes. Yeah, so he's never in the middle. So he's either like this.

Oh yes, he's like this.

He's never in the middle. So I'm waiting. So when he's sanguine, I can't be doing honor for, you know, the— yes, I have to, I have to play with me, play with him, you know. That's marriage, that's companionship.

And before you know it, my feet were off the ground. I was in the air.

He's like that.

I knew, number one, there's only one guy who can do that. I wasn't even thinking, I didn't say wisdom, there's just this guy.

It's because his sanguine self only comes out when he loves someone. When he's really in love, he's sanguine. So I, I see the sanguine and I'm like, marriage is companionship, so Putting honor, and again, honor has a language, honor has a posture. So if I am in that state of— I want to honor you, and honor is not assumed. So if I'm honoring you, you need to know I honor you. So my posture is that of honor, my words, my language. But when friendship is now in play, yeah, you might not necessarily be able to have that posture. You know, there's no posture of honor in throwing pillows at each other. So it's a dance. So when he's at that extreme, I flow, I dance towards that tune. When he's in that choleric— I mean, he's standing, he's, you know, giving— I'm in the position of I honor you. That's my head, that's my husband. So it's a dance.

You guys about to have difficult conversation?

Oh yes.

What do you think we should know about having difficult conversation.

Difficult conversations.

What you always say, yeah, is what really comes to heart here. Yeah, that's difficult conversations are too vital in marriages. I remember the example you gave about the, um, patient room. Oh yes, you know, people sweeping things on.

I was saying that imagine, you know, you have this house setting and, um, you know, you eat maybe things that have very strong, um, odor— fish you know, and then it falls on the floor, you sweep it under the Persian rug, you know. Um, something, you know, maybe this thing that we used to cook, iru and stuff, you sweep it under the Persian rug, and you keep sweeping things under the Persian rug. Now these things are dirty, smelly, they are trash. We need to bring them out, we need to sort them out. And then one day someone will come into your house and say, your house stinks, your house is smelly. And the same goes for marriage too. If we don't bring out those things and sort them and trash them out, the marriage will start stinking soon because they won't disappear on their own. It doesn't disappear.

People feel that time will heal.

People feel, this is it, you're not happy with me. No, now I begged you.

You too.

You too.

Uh-uh. Uh-uh. Uh-uh. Uh-uh. And the wife just comes—

that in itself, not Yes, it is, sir.

Because you are shutting the person up, you are not allowing the person express.

No expression. So, ma pinu, ma. And then there's this pseudo peace that is sweeping things.

It's not lasting peace.

It's not lasting peace.

What you've done is that you have just postponed the problem. You have postponed the issue. You will meet it ahead.

Yeah, and it will come. That's when people start imploding. Just one small issue And then the person just goes boom. And like, what did I do? And you're like, it is what you have been doing that you're not allowing me say, you're not allowing me speak out, you're not allowing us talk about this. I'm sick and tired of this. And then there's this rage, there's this—

and you're wondering that the action, that what you said does not deserve this reaction, but that reaction, it might be a compounded reaction of 2 years, many things, a lot of things. Many things.

Wow.

So that's why we say that when the marriage eventually break is not really when, you know, the breakup—

I usually say something that, that divorce thing, that house called divorce is built by bricks of offenses.

Powerful.

You know, one day the house will be complete.

Powerful.

And they will see the divorce and like, oh, and that's why when people divorce they say they separated based on irreconcilable differences. They couldn't, they couldn't reconcile them, they couldn't talk about them, they couldn't trash it out, you know. And that's where, um, counseling comes in. You know, you can't trash out something. You've been trying to have this conversation, he's not listening, he's not listening, or she's not understanding. You're communicating, the information you're passing is not arriving at its destination whole. You need help.

Yeah, you need it.

You need someone to, you need someone to say it in the way you need, you need them to hear it. You need a counselor. You need a counselor.

So, you know, um, we have had different kind of declassified, and, um, there are conversations that I'm listening to and I'm happy for the audience. This is one of them. And for me, anyone who encounters you guys, what you do in terms of counseling, therapy, I'm not sure they probably know how fortunate they are. Um, this is a fire without smoke, I must confess. The balance in the things that you're saying, you know, and I'm looking at it, um, the fact that our society is becoming increasingly dysfunctional, and the first place where you see the scars of that is families. Um, children are raised by those who didn't model what it means to be a good spouse, and now they have to figure out their own way out of life. What role do you think the examples you saw growing up has played in your marriage?

Wow. Now I need to say this, that examples communicate possibilities.

It shows you what is possible.

Yes, sir. So All right, so, so, so, so let me say this this way. If a child ever sees the dad beating his mom, now even though the child is angry, even though the child is crying and say, ah, leave her, leave her, that moment has communicated a possibility.

An equation has just occurred. Yeah, 1 1 has become 2. Yeah, right in his very front that this is possible. It is possible. Like, it's already a— it's an ingrained response that he might not be aware of.

So we need to do marriage right. We need to do marriage right, not just for us, but because of the next generation.

Not just even our biological children alone. There are people watching. There are people— there are so many things we learn without being taught. We learn them by observing.

Yes.

So not just because of our biological children.

Yes.

We know we're counseling someone. We had this experience, one of my early experience as a counselor, early days. So I was in my office and this guy walks in and starts complaining. My wife does this, I'm so tired. You remember that? My wife, my wife, my wife. And the wife was just there quiet, you know, you know. And you know, at some point, the way counseling goes, you know, you expect the wife to say, uh-uh, no, now. But I was— the man just kept saying, he— I mean, he kept speaking. Of course, as a counselor, you should have controlled the room, like I said, early days. But then we just allowed him speak, and he kept talking And then this woman just blurted out, he beats me. We were like, what? And she just said crying, you know, he beats me, he hits me, he does this, he hits my head on the wall. I'm like, ah. And then, sir, the next reaction that I saw shocked me. The man started crying. Yeah, started crying. And we were like, what's this reaction? Explain this reaction to me. And he said, I saw my dad do this to my mom.

Yes, sir.

Growing up.

Yes.

And I can't believe I'm the man that my wife is having to tell a counselor I beat her.

He's a good man, actually.

Very solid guy. I mean, but, um, he was so irritated. What I saw on his face was disgust, disappointment in himself.

He couldn't believe that.

He couldn't believe that was him. As his wife started crying, he kept looking at her with this look of disbelief that, am I the one you're talking about like this? He was so pained that he had become this person, and all he kept saying was, I saw this growing up, this shouldn't have been me. I saw this growing up, this shouldn't have been me.

Because who we are now is a sum total of our experiences, the things we've seen, the people we've been with. You know, for example, why I apologize to my wife— I don't have an issue, I don't have an issue prostrating and begging my wife. Why? I saw my dad, I saw him prostrate and he was begging my mom. I saw it several times. So it is not dishonor, it doesn't remove anything from me. I mean, in fact, I'm very quick to do it because I saw that growing up. So the, the, the examples, the things we have seen, they just don't disappear. They have a way of adding to who we are. That's one. And then two, which is also a very important part, is that what becomes of the marriages, the homes of the next generation, also grossly depends on how we are doing our own, right? Because our children are watching. Now we have people everywhere who don't believe in marriages, who don't want to get married. Why? Where did that come from? Because of the examples they saw. Yeah, somebody somewhere became a bad model of marriage to them, and now they don't ever want to get married. Yeah, the power of examples. So meaning that the way we are living— okay, some people too also come and say, you know, ah, I would really love to get married.

Like, in, in our church, Apostle taught something yesterday, you know, about atmosphere, about environment, rather, you know, talking about this guy. Yes, that was so, you know, when he was teaching, something came to my heart. Do you remember one particular lady that kept going around church telling people that I'm not going to get married? Yeah, I don't believe in marriage, I'm not going to get married. So someone brought this matter to me, and I was like, okay, now I introduced myself, and I said, can you come home? And she said, um, I'm sorry, relax and everything. She's like, oh, how long? As long as you want. She was like, okay. And she'll come and stay for just 2 weeks. I was like, fine, no problem. And so she came home, you know, stayed in the guest room, and we just continued our lives. She was just shocked that I never called her for a conversation. We even forgot she was in the house because we're just going about our day. I think about a week and some days after, you know, she met me in the kitchen. She was like, I want to get married. I said, please say that again. She's Ah, look how everything is. So I like the way you guys are, the way you chase each other, you know, the way you play. I want this, I want to get married. And I was like, yeah, thank God. Yeah, you know, this is, this is it. Environment, yeah, it plays along. It's, it's beyond biological children, you know. I said that earlier. Yes, people are watching. Yes, people need that environment. They need, they need to see the right things. Yeah. And people that are doing it right have to be loud about it.

Yeah.

So it can't just be between them.

And yeah, yes, the— I mean, if you met anyone who said they don't want to get married, whether they agree or not, it is because they've been seeing something, modeled something to them, whether they were conscious when they saw it or they were not. You know, they either that marriage is a place where the man controls and dominates the woman and the woman does not have a choice, doesn't have to say, because some— they saw something, they saw someone modelled that, and that's why—

so I'm going to get married and nobody will allow me talk in the name of submission.

Someone modelled it wrong.

Someone modelled it wrongly.

Yeah.

And marriage is supposed to be fun.

Marriage is supposed to be— that modelling comes from the family they grew up.

Yeah, they see their mom, you know, almost being a slave, kneeling down, you know, falling on the floor, you know, Daddy wa, you know, literally living her life to please the man, please the man, you know, which is, which is like I said earlier on honor and friendship. Yeah, it's a dance.

You never saw, never saw your dad carry your mom, never take care of your mom, take care of your mom happy, or your mom jumping that her husband was coming back. She's always scared, scared and sad. All of you go hide, he's coming back soon, you know. So that became—

she just doesn't want to be that woman. Yes.

Yes, sir. You know what you're saying, showing me a lot. Would it be that many of those people online discouraging young ladies from getting married are just hurt?

Yes, sir. Trauma responses, sir.

Powerful.

Why do they have to destroy other people's life because of their own personal pain?

Because, you know, the thing about hurt is that hurt people hurt others.

Yes.

And sometimes you don't even know where that reaction is coming from. Yeah, you don't know. It was because, you know, what your dad and mom did 20 years ago somehow registered something in your mind, and that's what is— you, you really don't know that that's why you have become this kind of person.

Yeah, well, you don't know. Can people reach out to you for counseling?

Oh yes, definitely.

Your organization?

Definitely, definitely.

Before, before I let you go, I understand it's a very busy season. There's a question, and I think this is one of the most important questions. Looking at what you guys do professionally, at what point do you think two people can walk away and say this should end? What are the things that needs to be there that even as a counselor you can say, all right, you know what, maybe it's best you guys go separate ways?

All right, when they're straight to life. I said when they're straight to life, not just straight. When— I mean, yeah, go on there.

Okay, so, um, two people can walk away when their values don't align. For example, you— I'm sorry, you know, this is your example coming to my head now. Say you feel like God is calling you to do something, you have a call to do ministry. And then this person on the other end wants to be a model. She wants to model lingerie, you know, and this is her lifelong dream to build that company, to, to do this, to— she wants to model and she wants to— this is her brand, this is who she is, you know. And then these values are coming together, you know, purposes, passion, you know, they are not aligning. We are supposed to be working towards a particular, you know, route, reaching a particular goal. But when we are both parallel lines then we should just better go our separate ways. We shouldn't meet. Shouldn't— if values are not aligning, I feel people should walk away.

Is that before they get married or even in marriage?

Before they get married.

Okay, I'm asking this question in respect of those married.

Married, married. Threat to life.

Threat to life.

Threat to life. Infidelity is also threat to life because if one person steps out— not just domestic violence, and we shouldn't stop at domestic violence, there's emotional, there's verbal violence. So that is also there. That can kill as much as domestic violence. Yeah, well, so we have domestic violence, verbal violence, um, then, um, cheating, cheating on your spouse. Yeah, that's, that's it. Also, that's also a threat to life, threat to life. Yeah, you know, if one person steps out the house, the house is open, you bring something in, infects the wife. I've seen a case like that. The wife is in trouble.

So yeah, or the wife or the husband is in trouble because both ways Yes, we're going to put out information because I know many people who need professional help will be interested in reaching out to you. And can they get these services from wherever they are across the world? Definitely, virtually and physically for those who want to. Uh, I, I, and I want to say this, that this is another The Classified Podcast that I know without doubt in my heart that we're going to have part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, because the matters we are discussing here are very serious issues.

Yes, sir.

So this is me saying in advance that we are going to have a part 2, and when we have a part 2, we're going to have a part 3. But for today, I want to really thank you for coming on The Classified Podcast. So grateful.

Thank you, sir.

And the audience are so grateful also. Thank you. Can't wait to have you again. Thank you so much.

Thank you, sir.