5 Steps To An Amazing Hiring Process For Agencies

All right, welcome back to another week of Agency Journey. This is Gray Mackenzie. This week I've got the pleasure of bringing on Noel Andrews, who is the owner, founder of Job Rack. We're going to get into what that business is specifically, but welcome aboard. Noel.

Hey, great. Great to be here.

Will you give us the super quick rundown on Job Rack, what it is today? Not the background, just today.

Yeah, sure thing. So we help online business owners, and especially agency owners, hire really great remote team members from Eastern Europe.

So that's. I love this sync to like, hey, here's exactly what we do. How did you get into it?

Yeah, so I spent like 15 years in the corporate world leading and kind of hiring and building large teams in the corporate tech world. I spent a year or so trying to build an interview coaching business to helping candidates be better at interviews. And then I was just about to jump back into kind of some interim work, and Job Rack actually came up for sale. And so it'd been born in a community that, I mean, and they'd run it for a couple of years, but it was always kind of a side hustle compared to their main thing. And it was very, very small. Like, really small. But it was in a good niche. It was remote hiring. This is back in 2018. Remote hiring was becoming more and more of a thing. Hiring is hard. And it was niched down to Eastern Europe, which is just an incredible part of the world to hire people from. And so, yeah, kind of serendipity, really, and then kind of jumped in from there.

Had you spent any time in Eastern Europe prior to acquiring Job Rack?

Not prior to, no. And only a little bit since then, really, because Covid. So, yeah, just a couple of trips and then looking to spend a lot more time there over the next year or so.

Yeah, that's awesome. Did you acquire. I thought I saw 2018. Is that when you acquired Jabra? Okay, that's awesome. Cool. So just from a business perspective, because I'm interested in what that looked like. Um, why did you acquire it and what did you see as like, hey, here's how I'm gonna increase the value of the. Obviously, your. Your move has not been acquire it, grow it, and then flip it right away. But what was the. What was the big opportunity that you saw?

So I think so for me, there's a couple of things. So I wanted to spend my time doing things I enjoy and specifically like speaking to people. So I love speaking to people.

Right.

Get me on the phone with business owners, entrepreneurs, agency owners. That is My jam, that's what I love doing. And so the fact that this was a business that was basically helping those exact people hire was like perfect for me. I was like, right, I can see these, my customers are going to be people that I like hanging out with. Therefore it's not like work. On top of that the fact it was niche down and I'd worked a lot with people from Eastern Europe and just the quality, the work ethic, everything that the cultural alignment like everything about them is fantastic. And you basically avoids a lot of the frustrations that lots of business owners have with kind of hiring from other regions of the world. And it's affordable, unlike often hiring from us, Canada, UK and on top of that it wasn't very much money. So to give you an idea that the vanity metric that's always good fun to say is that I have increased the revenue 4000x.

There you go.

Which sounds amazing but if you start from a business that's doing 15, 1 $5 a month and you know, you kind of get an idea now, it's still a, you know, a heck of an increase. But it was very, very small and that was why it was like it existed, it had a little bit of a brand, it existed very well within this community that I'm in and had a good database and the tech was done. So instead of starting from scratch, having to build that, it just, you were ten steps forward. And so it was just like I can just get going, you know, make the money back pretty quickly and then just go, go, go.

Yeah. I think at least in my, the circles I've been in and experience there have been some stereotypes about available talent in different regions. So the thing that pops to mind for me thinking of Eastern Europe and this is probably six, seven years ago that I first heard this more often was like this is one of the places to go for UI ux, like front end design as a common trend. I'm sure once you actually get into like boots on the ground there are a ton of talented people in a ton of different roles. But I are there specific like what. And this could be a combination of maybe the most popular roles that you fill, which would I guess be more a function of demand maybe than of supply. But from a supply side what is like what's most easy to find or what's the easiest role to find qualified candidates for?

Yeah, so I don't certainly right now I don't think there are any easy roles like you know, we're really to get the really the best candidates you know, even we have to really hunt them out. And thankfully we're very good at it. I've got a really great team. I think so. I mean Eastern Europe was particularly known especially six, seven years ago for software developers. Software developers, graphic designers, front end, things like that. Technical education is really, really strong. And that was what, you know, in fact that was why Job Rack was initially kind of born and created for software development, to help people hire those. And then it's naturally expanded out and in reality right now we are pretty broad between you know, maybe 20 to 30% of our roles are software developers. 20 or 30% are maybe kind of like what we would call like mid tier, kind of tech specialists. So everything from graphic designers, SEO specialists, PPC operations managers, project managers, and then a similar kind of maybe about 30% or so really, really great virtual assistants, executive assistants, like kind of op specialist, things like that. So it's actually we have quite a spread now and some of that is because we've taken the message to agency owners and SaaS, business owners and E Comm Store owners to say, hey look, you know, actually this is what's available and these are the quality of people that we can, we can hire. So yeah, pretty broad. I think the one thing that we don't specialize in is we don't do anything really in the true C suite arena. You know, if you're like an eight figure business, you're really looking for C suite. That's not really kind of a world we play in. But anyone that's kind of hands on doing or managing and really helping you build a business and agency, that's the sweet spot.

Yeah, that's awesome. Let me hit you with a couple kind of like rapid fire questions before getting into I told you I wanted to talk about like the process of hiring great agency talent and then I'm avoiding that for the first 10 minutes of the podcast here. So the first question I have is like, how does Job Rack actually work?

So we've got two things. So we have a DIY service which is a job board. So you pay a couple hundred dollars and you post your job and then you know, it goes out onto our database and our kind of social circles and networks. And you do all the hard work of hiring yourself, but you still get great results for certain roles. And then we have a done with you service where we take all of the hard work out of hiring. So we kind of act like as your, like your hiring guide, but also your hiring Sherpas doing all the heavy work. The heavy lifting for you, going out and finding the right candidates, filtering them, reviewing them, screening them, testing them, basically all of the hard work. And then you kind of like work with us closely to, you know, agree a shortlist and then do the interview side of things. So that's the done with you service. That is the kind of the focus of what we do right now.

That makes sense. You guys are. Now obviously candidates look different but like you can compare job rack to like a typical recruiting firm, you know, 10, 15, 20% of first year salary. You get that front where there might be, I don't know whether this is a fair assessment or not. Maybe they do a little bit more, I don't know. In my experience they've been ones that feel like they do a little bit less, but in a different price bucket. Then you've got the rise of the virtual assistant staffing business, online jobs and then niche down again into executive assistance with companies like I think Tim Francis at Great Assistant or some of the companies like that where they're very specialized in, hey, we'll just find this specific type of role and that specialization probably gives them the ability to charge a premium as well. That's a $5,000 service to basically do the. We'll help you figure out what you need. We'll write the jd, we'll source and we'll give you three candidates and you go interview and pick. So you've got some different models in there and it's cool to hear like you guys have the job board and then the, the white glove piece to staff that. What does the team look like to try and staff that business?

Yeah. So we've got a team of where we up to right now, 15 as of today. Most or two thirds of them, if not a little bit more are on the recruitment site. So sources, recruitment assistance very heavy on the, you know, like any agency on the delivery side and on the operations side. So these are the people that are helping us craft really amazing job posts to help us, you know, attract the attention of the best candidates. Then really getting out there, head hunting, sourcing, filtering, doing screening interviews, things like that. So the majority of the team is focused on that kind of operations and that delivery and like you kind of hinted at there with the different models that are out there. And there's tons of different ways that you can hire people. For me, I've got a big belief that, you know, an agency owner, if you want to build a committed team that's going to help you grow your agency and your business, I feel that they need to be your team members. So personally I'm not a fan of, you know, the kind of services that, you know, the, the team member works for the service and then they kind of like pass through the payment and they've got maybe a 20 or 30% kind of like uplift on it. It takes some headache away. But for me, I want people to be working kind of for me, regardless of the legal arrangement, I kind of want those to be my team members. And like you said, there's lots of people in the recruitment industry kind of, you know, with 20, 30% commissions and some of them work really hard for it. I like the fact that there's a lot of cost efficiencies with hiring from Eastern Europe as an example, and I like passing that on. So we keep our fees kind of profitable, but sensible and affordable.

Right. Makes sense. What have you seen? I'm sure for roles this looks different, but let's take the executive assistant or ops type role. Is there a max? Eastern Europe is kind of nice because you can touch most of the world with at least a couple hours of, of overlap. But is there a max time zone differential that you'd recommend to people or like, hey, I'm talking to somebody in San Francisco. Like that's going to be a tough, you know, potentially nine hour swing. If we need overlap, that'd be tough to staff.

Yeah. So why did we normally do that? So I think the minimum overlap is two hours.

Right.

For most roles.

Right.

Because actually doesn't matter how autonomous and asynchronous that their work can be, you kind of want to talk to them every now and again.

Right.

You want to do one to ones involve them in team meetings, things like that. So for me, a minimum of two hours a day or at least two hours, maybe three or four times a week is kind of key. So what we would do if we're hiring for people on the west coast, for instance, we will typically hire someone to work from maybe 11am through till kind of 7pm or midday through till 8pm Eastern European time, which is typically kind of Central European time zone. So GMT plus one. So that actually then gives us that kind of three or four hour crossover in the west coast morning, which kind of deals with, with that. I'm really not a fan of, you know, asking people to work night shifts, to work early hours of the morning. I don't think it's great for health and well being. I don't think it's great for longevity and actual long term satisfaction. And therefore, you know, so we don't do a lot in that space. We just try and adjust it and say, hey, people working through till 7pm, 8pm, very, very happy with that, no worries. That's how we kind of handle that crossover piece. And if someone, you know, if there's a training of good examples, like you said, Eastern Europe does cover quite well. You know, we've got a lot of clients in Australia that it works well for. So that for me, two hours is about the minimum that you want to hit.

Yeah, that makes sense. All right, well, let's talk process here because that's what we're process nerds, obviously, the agency side. And we can kind of hit the what I'm, I'm going to try and skip ahead. This can be for my own benefit more than for anybody else. So sorry, sorry, if you're listening.

I.

Want to know like the stuff that is not, the stuff that might not be surface level isn't like immediately what we think of if we've done. I want to talk to the people who've done this. This is not their first time ever hiring anybody. So if we just look at it kind of start to finish, the first thing is just kind of defining success, defining what do I actually need? Are we picking the right role? What are the things you've seen, like the world class hirers, employers, like they've got some framework or some way to define what they need. What have you seen work best in terms of figuring out is this the right role to hire for? Who do I need? What am I looking for?

Yeah, so the first thing is don't start thinking about a role because often we get pigeonholed and we go, right, I need a PPC specialist or I need a graphic designer or I need an executive assistant. And it just kind of like squeezes our head into a what does that role do?

Right.

What is it okay to ask? And actually what's much better is to start with what are the outcomes and the outputs that you want to produce? Ideally, outcomes, right. So what is that? If you think forward like a few months when you're sitting in their monthly one to one and you've got their employee scorecard with you. We'll come to that in a sec. What are the metrics that you're going to kind of judge them by? What's their success criteria? So if you can start with that and then that lets you think about the outcomes that you want, then you can think about the outputs that you need that they need to deliver in order to hit those outcomes. And then you can start thinking about, right, what skills and experience do they need to be able to do those outputs. And a lot of my time is spent with people kind of running through this kind of stuff and then going, yeah, you can completely combine that skill, that skill and that skill. That's completely okay. So for me, don't worry about a particular role. Just start with what it is you need doing. And then either with peers, either with a management team or with people like me, I do a lot of kind of almost just riffing on this, just trying to figure out saying, right, well, if you want that, is that two roles, is that one role and kind of just guiding on the skills that can be found. So that's the first thing. So think about the outcomes you really want. And then the crucial thing is typically agency owners are going to typically start thinking about hiring when they're about 100% of capacity, maybe 120%. You're already overworked, you're already stretched, your team's crying, the clients are getting a bit hacked off because maybe service is slipping a little bit and you're thinking about what you need right now. Whereas what you want to think about or really, really ideally should be thinking about is what do you need in six months and in 12 months? And that then ensures you get someone that isn't, you know, kind of just outpaced on day one. And also naturally, ideally, and this is where Eastern Europe particularly is great, because if you can hire at a slightly lower cost than locally, that lets you start thinking about hiring at maybe 60% capacity, 70% capacity, that lets you do this in a slightly calmer fashion. A good friend, a friend of mine often says to me, he says, wise men never rush. And it's when we rush that it starts getting tricky. So, yeah, thinking for what you're going to need in six or 12 months.

Yeah, I think even just saying that, the instant reaction for a lot of people is, I have no idea what I need. We talk a lot about finding the focus in the business. And one of our principles from our agency Freedom Manifesto back in the day was make the hard decision once. That makes every following decision easier. A bunch of people have popularized that same sort of idea. But the more that you figure out for job rack, it'd be a lot easier to predict. Hey, we've got two main ways that we serve people and we serve one market from one geo. It becomes a much easier problem to predict what you're going to need six months from now than if you're where our agency was 11 years ago, which is if you have money and you want something done related to the Internet, we'll do it and figure it out. I have no idea what we're going to need in six months. It depends on what people have money to pay us for in six months. So focus is definitely a piece of it, but I'm sure there's other ways that we can get to it. I'm going to throw a situation at you. This is my personal, immediate situation at you. And maybe we can just do this practically. It's like, hey, how would we think through the goal? So I'm. Let me just go to my inbox right now. I'm normally inbox zero type of person. I've got, let's see, 44 emails sitting here in my inbox. Some of these, what's the longest, oldest one here, end of June, a little over a week old on some of these I have. So I'm huge on relationships. That's like my standard for life is like, relationships matter most. And I want, I want email to be a tool to initiate, to build, you know, help healthy relationships, but want to spend as little time as possible in actual email. There's not a lot of, like, great, deep relationships that get built just over email. So I want to spend less time there, but I want the people who deserve a quicker response time from me. That might be a bad goal, but that's one of the outcomes that pops to mind is I want help with my inbox. And so I think what you're saying is, like, the easy thing that comes to mind is I need an executive assistant. And maybe that's true, maybe that's not true, but I've got this, like, a handful of admin needs. There's a lot of nuance in my email. This is a prospect, this is a client, this is a strategic partner. This is Noel, who's about to come on the podcast. There's a handful of different types of situations like that. How do you go about. And then so kind of specked into that role. We could look at like, hey, I want someone to help support me with my ClickUp tasks or my HubSpot tasks or whatever my workload is and calendar management and, you know, those types of things. What are the things? Like, is that the right way to approach, hey, here's the. Because those are kind of outcomes like, I want to be at inbox zero every day, but that feels like a weak outcome to me. How do you take that? And Make a better outcome from that or is that a fine outcome? And then it's okay. Now we spec this into wherever we're going.

So I think it's okay as a stop. I think the biggest thing for me is making sure that whoever you have working with you for you is that you tell them the outcome that you want. Like, what's the real job to be done?

Yeah.

So I don't know if you're familiar with this the jobs to be done framework. And it all talks about like McDonald's milkshakes and why people buy them first thing in the morning. And it's not because they. They want the nutrients. Questionable how many nutrients are in a McDonald's milkshake. They taste good, but actually what they wanted was something to entertain them on the commute to work because it takes time because they're so hard to suck through the straw. And the jobs to be done, the job to be done here is that you want to actually spend as little time as possible on email, but curate and maintain really high quality relationships with people over email. So what that means is that if you communicate that to an EA and really kind of help them understand you and what's important to you, they can help you prioritize things. So for me, with my ea, we've got a system in place with my inbox that my inbox does get kept pretty much to zero, like all the time. And we have a couple of folders and one of them is attention required. So when something needs my attention, it gets put in there. So I almost don't look at my inbox anymore. I look at the attention required folder and there are some things that she can suggest responses to, in which case she does. There are some things that she just responds to on my behalf, which is great, but I'm like you. For me, the personal relationships is really important that it's me doing that or if it's not me, that it's actually clear when it's not me. So for me, the big thing is ensuring that they understand really what it is you want out of it. And that is really strong relationships and minimal time on email, then finding the process, the Systems, the rules, etc. That work to enable that.

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so we got the outcome defined. Like what happens next? Does that become job description? Like role definition and job description.

So that's one particular thing that what we would normally do is you and me, we'd be riffing and saying, what else could they take on for you? And ultimately, you know, if you do like, there's like one assessment called XDS which is like eliminate, delegate, simplify. And it's just about how do you spend your time, right? And what you really want is someone that's a taking as much off your plate as possible and asking you every day and saying, what can I take off your plate today?

Right.

So that someone is proactively challenging you to think about what can you delegate to them. That is painful sometimes, but in a really good way because it makes me think about it and it makes me invest the time. Right, okay, well, if I just shoot this loom video, I can get this off my plate kind of forever more. And so yes, normally we come up with a list of tasks that helps us shape the skills you need. And then in our case we would take on that work of crafting the job post, going to finding the people. But the main thing is thinking, build a bit of a list of tasks of what you want, what are the multiple outcomes you want, and then what skills and experience they need and what kind of attitude.

Right.

So for me, for an ea, I want them to be inquisitive, I want them to be proactive. I want them to be going and googling and saying like, right, what are the best Gmail filters and rules that I should implement? A really common one for me is meeting acceptances. I do not need to see them and neither does my ea. So just because someone's paid a bit less than your time is valued at doesn't mean that they shouldn't automate stuff. And I really want all of my team to be focused on automating things as the first step. How can we automate it, get that rid of that. Then other things we can simplify if we need to keep hold of them, come up with a list of outcomes you want, different things you want to work on, think hard and get some inspiration from other people and then, yeah, skills, experience, and then we start refining that into a job post and the kind of person that you might need.

Yep, I want to skip over this might be, feel free to disagree with me if you don't want to, but skip over some of the sourcing. If there's anything you want to mention on that front, I'm happy to, happy to have that conversation. But like the easy answer is, you know, like get these things down. Figure out you're either gonna go self recruit and self source, in which case you got the LinkedIn and Indeed and your network and all the common stuff, or work with Jabrack or another Sourcing partner. Moving through that, I've heard some advice from people, especially around the applicant experience, really, in the last year, that's become a huge. And probably longer than that if you're in the space. So for you, probably, like, yeah, we've been talking about that since 2018. But as the marketplace has just gotten way more competitive, that's become a lot more important. People saying, hey, you know, we want to turn this process around within two weeks. Or I've heard 10 days, I've heard three weeks. I've heard any number of times. But what does a healthy hiring process look like from kind of applicant in to what comes next?

Yeah, so the most important thing is to inject yourself into the process, even if you're not in the process.

Right.

So there's so many great tools now, you know, that help you capture to get applicants to record videos and things like that that lots of applicants hate.

Right.

Especially when English is not their first language. And they might have great English, but it's still a little bit intimidating. So one of the things that I recommend is put a video of you in the job post.

Right.

Right up front. You know, hey, it's gray here. I'm the CEO of ZenPilot, and I'm looking for a really, really great executive assistant to help me, you know, maintain great relationships and keep my inbox at zero. If this sounds like you, check out the details below. Reply. So then they just like that, 30 seconds, you know, and then they see you and then they're like, oh, well, that's great. That's who I'm going to be working for.

He goes, cool.

He sounds like a nice guy. I'm going to be much more inclined to kind of go through the process. The second one is, you know, if you're asking them to record a video later on, you know, again, set their expectations as you kind of. And these are all the things that make candidates feel good. In your job post, make sure you're including, you know, social proof.

Right.

So what do your clients think about Zenpilot as an example?

Right.

What do your team feel about Zenpilot? So we include little kind of testimonial comments from our team about what it's like to work at Job Rack in the job post, which then makes people feel so much more kind of like, oh, my God, they're excited to come and work for Job Rack and to apply. And so we do this with all of our clients about, how do you make, like you said, the candidate experience, how do you make them feel as good as possible and keeping a really kind of streamlined process as much as you can. Crucial phase is testing and setting expectations up front. So in the job post again we set a lot of expectations. So we're going to tell them how to apply, we're going to tell them what's going to be involved. Hey, you're going to click apply, you're going to fill out an application form. It's going to be a lengthy application form because we want you to put some effort in. You don't want to put any effort in. No worries. This isn't the job for you. Then there's going to be a screening call or a screening video. Then there's going to be a test. Then we're going to get on an interview and see if we're a really good fit and have a really great chat and get to know each other. Because interviews are a two way. So we do a lot like that around that candidate experience. And crucially for any agency owner, any business owner, the most important bit of all of this is the test. Because there are some people out there that are amazing at interviews. That does not mean they're amazing at doing the job you want them to do. And so the test is the one opportunity you've got. Give them just. We recommend like one to two hours of tasks, many projects, mini scenarios, the kinds of things they're actually going to do for you. And that's. We help people do that. We create a lot of tests ourselves. We always do custom tests because it's about right. What are they going to do for you? Let's figure out have they got the aptitude and experience to actually to do that. So that's, that helps a lot. Makes things a lot more streamlined and really, really kind of lets you see how they work before you get into the interview.

Do you mean reference? Like is a reference check always part of the process?

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. They are not perfect.

Right.

Because nobody's going to give you a reference that's going to say bad things. However, we always, so we all, we assist the referencing process but we always recommend our clients do it directly. Because if I contact the company to ask for reference on a candidate, I'm coming at it from a recruitment, you know, a recruitment service perspective. They're going to give me different answers than if you gray, if you phone them up and be like, hey, I'm thinking about hiring Noel. What was it like when he worked for you?

Right.

You know, how would you score him on a rate, on a range of kind of 1 to 10. And there's things that you can ask that you then see. How comfortable are they answering things like that? And you're gonna, you can dig in a little bit more. It is very, very rare for us to have a scenario where someone can actually get references that will lie for them. So issues are very, very few and far between. But the 80, 20, in fact, the 99% benefit of references isn't in doing the references. It's in telling the candidates you're going to do the references. So in the interview, you can. In the job post, we again say we're going to take up references. In the interview, you can be saying, hey, so what's your current manager called? Okay, how do I spell that? Cool. So when I speak to him, like, what's he going to say is the best thing about you working for him? And you know, and then you can go in and then you can say, okay, well, what's, you know, what would he want more from you? What's. What would his biggest frustration be? And having that conversation, whether or not you take up references. And I always recommend you take up references, but having that conversation, actually you get in like 80, 90% of the benefit.

Yep. That's awesome. How about the end of. So I want to come back, I want to come back to a couple questions that I'm not going to. I'm going to do my best not to forget. End of the process, negotiation, offer. Even somebody signing on like this happened last night. We signed an offer. Candidate just accepted the job offer. What can we do to wow her to make this a great experience in these couple weeks before starting?

Okay, so first of all, communicate really, really clearly. I let them know what to expect. Let them know what's going to happen if you can. And if they're up for it, get them into maybe email and Slack even before they start. Ask them, are they happy to do a little bit before they start. Just getting familiar with things, you know, would they like that? Would they like to join the team meeting, you know, before they start? And a lot of people really would.

Right.

Because it just relaxes them for their first day. Biggest thing, though, is setting expectations. Do a really good job about setting up their access to systems and things like that and have a clear plan in place for their first, like, first day, first few weeks, including really getting time to meet other and talk to other members of the team.

Right.

So if you imagine if we were starting work or someone starting working in office, they're going to spend time, at least say hello to other members of the team when we're remote, you have to be a little bit more intentional about it. But the benefits are huge. So when anyone starts in my business, they get 15 minutes, 15 to 20 minutes with every member of the team. Now there's 15 of us. That's just about still doable as we grow. We'll see. But I'm a big fan of that. So even if it was every member of their department and then the other department heads, but for me, having a team member that really understands, understands how the business ticks and where people live and what they do is super important to me. So yeah, just think about how you'd like to be treated and do that. And if you want to kind of like hack this, then go to your existing team and say, hey, when you started, what do you wish we told you? What do you wish we'd done? And get them to just chuck their ideas into a Google Doc that becomes your onboarding process.

Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. All right, couple quick ones that I jotted down when I asked people, hey, what are the things that you want answers on? First one, any book, is there one book? Some of the principals even asking about references and using thread of reference as you go. Like books like who or stuff like that. Is there one book that you'd recommend or a couple books that you'd recommend for people looking at hiring who want to do a bang up job?

So honestly, there's tons of great books out there. Who is it is a great book? There's honestly not because I think it depends what you want to be good at.

Right.

So most agency owners are probably not out there reading books on bookkeeping.

Right.

Or accounting. There's some great books out there on bookkeeping and accounting, by the way, but it's probably not the thing. And I kind of treat hiring the same way. For me it's about that you need to know enough. So. So I think the who method hiring is probably my number one.

Right.

Because it's really good to be. Because the key thing that that focuses on is the interview.

Right.

And as much as I don't entirely buy into the approach of the number of interviews they do and the format, there's some really good things that you can pick out. But overall I think it's about get, you know, get something you're comfortable with, talk to people about, you know, great interview questions. And I tend to share. There's a few different approaches I share and then get good at actually having a conversation with someone. There's A way too much is written about interviews that end up being very one sided. I want to get to know the person. I want to know what makes them pick, what has shaped them effectively because that's going to tell me how well they're going to perform. So yeah, on the hiring side, I think the who Method, the other book that I always love to recommend because it's new on to me, it's absolutely amazing. So called Die with Zero. Absolutely amazing book and highly recommend Read it. It basically says if you die and you have money in the bank, you've either worked too hard or not had enough fun. And none of us want to work too hard and none of us want to have not not have enough fun. So really recommend that.

Yeah. What is your favorite ATS applicant tracking system?

So for me it's workable. That's the one we use. And top tip for any agency owners, if you want to try it, it's free. Free for one role and it's great. The key thing with workable, but probably not the free version. So for us the biggest thing is it has video built in and there's no limits on the video, which is super important for us. Lots of the other ATS systems out there, it's like you can do a two minute video or you have to go out to another thing. I want for me and my clients, I want to be able to see everything about the candidate in one place. And yeah, I think that is very, very good. The market's always changing kind of thing. But if anyone's ever got any particular questions, I'm always happy to kind of help out on that thing.

Awesome.