Best ClickUp Implementation Path For Agencies w/ Layla Pomper

Hello, this is Gray MacKenzie, and before we get started with today's interview, I want to quickly thank our sponsor for this episode, textexpander. You know I'm all about standardizing processes and working efficiently. Well, TextExpander helps agency teams do both from an efficiency perspective. TextExpander saves me personally a couple of hours worth of typing each month. And when you magnify that across our growing team, the time saving adds up. And this is a cool part that I didn't anticipate when I first started using Text expansion tools seven or eight years ago. TextExpander keeps our messaging consistently on point with the right spelling, language and formatting. So we've been able to eliminate a ton of simple mistakes and copy paste mix ups by rolling out textexpander across the team. I've actually got a video that'll be up on our YouTube shortly with a bunch of my favorite use cases. But for now, I want you to head to textexpander.com podcast and you get to lock in a 20% year one discount for all Agency Journey listeners. Again, thanks to Texas Banner, both for their sponsorship and the impact they've had on our team. Now let's get to today's interview. Awesome. Welcome to another episode of Agency Journey. I'm your host, Gray MacKenzie. This week I've got the pleasure and privilege of bringing on Layla Pomper, who's the owner of ProcessDriven, where she helps small teams systematize their entire team operations by mastering ClickUp. It may sound familiar it if you're familiar with the Zen pilot story. So I'm excited. Layla, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks so much for having me on here, Gray.

So you left me. I'm over here in Pennsylvania and you abandoned to move out to Utah.

I did.

Just last year, right?

Yes. Yep. 2021. So I was like, you know, Gray's around here. It's just too close proximity. I need to go all the way across the country to really give us that space.

Hate those, hate those competitors, right? That's it. Well, I'm excited. So I'm going to dig into a little bit of the background and the story and the business model, but I think the place to start is just Process Driven itself kind of in its current iteration. Can you walk us through what Process Driven today looks like? Business model and that kind of stuff.

Yeah. So I'll do the top level first, then we'll talk geeky business details, which I know you'll appreciate. Step two. So Process driven, like you said, are our Whole role in the world is to kind of change the way small teams, meaning less than 100 people think about process how they actually function on a day to day. That's our mission. And yeah, we use ClickUp to do that. That's our tool of choice right now. And the business model piece of it for anyone interested in that, it is over the past, I would say year and a half or so we've transitioned fully into a courses and memberships model. We have a pretty injured teams. So 2000 teams or so times 5 to 20 people in each team, that's a lot of people. We've run through this to make it better. But each time ClickUp changes every single week we have an opportunity to leverage something new. So I think to ever say that we're at 100% would just be vanity, honestly versus reality.

Well, I think the temptation and so we share a lot of similarities in terms of tools like I am a big believer in. We're going to know and this is one of the differences in our, in our business model that we'll get into. We're going to know how agencies should operate and should deliver client services best, but we're not just going to know the high level strategy. We're going to know how to actually get traction very, very quickly with that. And so being focused in just one tool allows us to deliver that boots on the ground like the very granular level detail very quickly. And it's really hard to do that with a small team. Even though we're at 14 or 15 people right now. Very hard to do that with a team of 15. If we're spread out and say hey, we'll work in whatever project management platform you want to. And we're switching constantly back and forth. But our standard is just what do we think is the best project management platform for most agencies most of the time because that's kind of the maximum of this target market that we've chosen to serve while still being able to help people on a really granular level. Implement can bring, bring clarity from the chaos that they're experiencing right now and deliver better client results. So we're aligned on that front. But I find that a lot of times it's easy to get hyper focused on the technical component of ClickUp and that we've pushed a ton of limits on ClickUp but there's always that question of should this be done in ClickUp or should this be done? So like are we losing track of how we help people get the maximum impact? Not necessarily. How do we help them get the maximum impact inside ClickUp specifically. So I think that's helpful. I feel very much the same way. Like, the clients, I'm sure you have the same experience, they're like, oh, my goodness, it's 10 out of 10. Like, I can't believe how you guys have figured out what to do on the platform or with process. And on the inside, seeing it all and seeing it across thousands of clients, you're like, no, we're like two or three. Like, there's a. A long way still. There's so many improvements that could still happen here. So that framework, the difference between how do we improve process and how do we get better at the specific tool? That's interesting just to hear you kind of describe, is there anything that you plan for or kind of intentionally block time or assign time or priorities to? That's a distinction between what happens in ClickUp versus what happens from a process perspective.

I mean, I would say we have taken a lot of energy into separating those two things because I think blurring those lines, as hard as it is for you and I, people who have been working in ClickUp, I mean, I think you've been doing this as long as I have. Since ClickUp came around, we've all been doing these implementation projects early 2018. Yeah, exactly. So that same timeline of we've been in ClickUp for so long and we're thinking, oh, man, sometimes it's hard to separate ClickUp from the process piece. Well, how can you imagine someone who's brand new to ClickUp still being dazzled in some ways, it's really hard for them to see that separation. So I would say seeing them as two distinct things, Peanut butter and jelly, yes, they go together, but they don't need to be, you know, homogenous. That has been a big goal for us in terms of our content, in terms of our training, and yes, in terms of my time when developing content, I try to look at both pieces. And by doing that, that's kind of where I'm going down that path of, oh, man. We've been so zoomed in on ClickUp. We have to acknowledge that, you know, business model, the best tool, the most power, none of these things are 100% indicative of what's the right tool for this team coming in our door right now. And, you know, just because ClickUp can do automations for certain teams and certain risk tolerances, I'll put that out there for ClickUp Automations. Click of Automations are not the right choice for that one team. Coming in the door. And I feel like we need to be prepared to have that conversation if we're going to sit here as we do at ProcessDriven and say your system's not the software. Well, how silly is that to say if we're only supporting one software, Right?

Yeah, there's a fine line there. I feel like we've got a benefit now. We're totally different ends of the spectrum from a cost perspective and way people engage. But we're kind of lucky that we, you know, every one of our engagements starts with this blueprint process where we get to go in and hey, before we're actually building it all out, we're going to do all the systems design together the discovery and then design what this needs to look like. So that's kind of our, we get to use that as a little bit of a vetting, like, hey, is ClickUp really the right tool for you? How exactly would it work? What's the ROI and the pros and cons of ClickUp versus whatever you're on now or you know, should you, should you still be using it? My, my perspective is that you don't really have that kind of ahead of time, but you're getting people who are self selecting into, hey, no, ClickUp's the tool. They've already kind of made that decision by the time that they're moving into one of your engagements. Is that accurate?

We have, we do have a tester, but it is a self discovery journey. So we do have a course that allows people to get a sense of. Here's what ClickUp feels like set up. Do you like this? Which is, you know, a four hour journey at most, depending on your tech skills, one hour for the more tech savvy and it kind of lets them get that sense of whether it's a good fit. But you're right, it's self selection. And I, I know something that I think is important to hit on here, as you've talked about, is the difference between the process driven membership and zenpilot as a whole and all that you guys do. I feel like this piece of self selection is a huge difference. We had a question just last week. We do live Q and A's every week for the membership and someone asked, you know, why do you guys charge like as little as you do? Because when I was a consultant my pricing was more online with Zenpilot and now here I am having a low, like I think a very affordable membership option to do the same outcome. And what I said to them, which I Think echoes why your pricing is where it's at is that we have risk. We know the value of a well set up foundation in ClickUp for all of your processes and systems. That is so much value. But because we can't vet you necessarily, we can't necessarily one on one diagnose things. We're relying on you to do that self diagnostic and you to come with that preparation and interest in learning. Because of that we charge a smaller percentage of the value to be made. Whereas you, I feel like you're on the opposite extreme because you have that extreme, not extreme vetting but sort of that three prong approach of filtering folks. You're able to charge a greater percentage of that end value because there's less risk.

Yeah, I think it's a great way to look at it is. Yeah. How certain are we to hit that outcome where you've got a high reliance? People can definitely get to the same point. Just the amount of work that goes into it, the amount of effort or sacrifice and work that goes into it looks a little different. And the amount that we control in terms of the certainty of getting there absolutely is higher. Can you walk me through the business And I think for the benefit of folks listening, sure. How I go to ProcessDriven, there's.

A.

Course component, there's membership component. The membership I'm sure is the main push. But just walk through what does the business model look like today?

So right now I like to say we have one product, we do one thing. That is where all of our energy goes for all eight employees. We come in and we work on devising this experience for team leaders, managers, nonprofit execs, whoever they are, because we do have a variety of industries which I'm sure we'll touch on later. They come in and they don't know how to systemize their business. They may or may not know how to use ClickUp or they're using it and it's not quite working for them. And we try to get them from wherever their baseline is to the first quick win, whatever that quick win might be, which might be figuring out how to manage tasks and not have a pile of overdues or how to create your first sop. And then we try to get all of our members to that same end result of having that foundational system in ClickUp. And that is a membership model. So it's primarily delivered through first a course foundation which is how we're allowed to or how we're able to get people into the right kind of level for where they're at and get them to that same end result. That's the way we structure it because it kind of mirrored what I used to do as a consultant. And rather than doing it one on one for, you know, five, six figures, you know, we're going down to, to this model and that's kind of the main backbone, but we supplement that in our membership. And what kind of takes a lot of our time as the team for any business wonks out there is we have live calls every week, consulting every month as a group in a mastermind format, orientation calls, peer groups, forums, and we basically have kind of more of a consultant on call model where people can ask questions, get expert answers either in real time in the forum or every week on the live calls. And that interaction to me was always essential if I was going to give up on services and go away from that path, which I think you can relate to is like it's just a level of connection that I would have really missed otherwise. But that's our membership, really a kind of set journey and then a lot of individual support to get you there, including template vaults and all those other resources that we match you with. We also take one piece of that membership, which is like a How to use ClickUp beginner course. It's called how to ClickUp and that's what we sell individually if someone wants to just test the waters. So it's all one product, but you can buy it and two ways, really.

Yep, that makes sense. How have you seen one of the challenges with that model, commonly with the membership model is churn. Same thing. Any software, but particularly memberships or anything like that, is how long can you retain people, especially with a low monthly cost, what does retention look like? And I think there might be a perception from some people that hey, I'll be in this for three, six, nine months or whatever, we'll get it built out right, and then I can leave. So there's also an element where it's not. I'm not happy with it, but hey, I got enough, I'm good. How has that evolved or how do you set expectations around what it looks like to be, I guess not really a membership example, but we're working, we've been running on EOS since 2016 or something and we just this year decided, hey, we want to ramp stuff up. End of last year, working with a professional implementer, they have this model where roughly two years, it could be longer, it could be a little shorter, but roughly two years until you graduate, you no longer need a Professional implementer. How do you set expectations around how long should I be in this community or not in this community? Or do you do anything to set expectations?

I think this is an instance where there are a lot of differences among our members. Unlike many people who get into memberships, I did not get into it in, you know, for the appeal of just like the revenue component, the model. Actually the model model came as an accident because I started off as a consultant who wanted to provide ongoing support. But as you probably can realize, having projects where you just say you could always contact me for support at any time is a recipe for stress. So the model was an accident. I just want to put that out there first. It was a happy accident that ended up working out. And when people are coming into our orbit now, I generally tell them the reason we have the two options we have currently, which is a three month membership or a 12 month, is because that is a reasonable timeframe. I think if you are a go getter, three months is substantial time for you to set up a foundation in ClickUp and to start getting those habits down. In three months you can build a habit. And many of our implementation projects pre membership, we're in that, you know, less than three month timeline. We have the 12 months for people who want to not just build it, but go through that continuous improvement process. My intention when it comes to renewals is that just like your EOS experience, I want people to graduate. We're not here. Like I don't view it as necessarily a great thing. If people are around for five years, I'd love for them to keep getting value out of it. But when they reach the point where they're getting more value or they're not getting enough value versus the price of what they're paying to be in there, I want them to move on and go on to the next program. Our program is about building the foundation. Not all houses have the same kind of foundation, not all houses need the same foundation. So I think, I hope, I should say we're setting that expectation at onboarding and we're talking about that when we have our new member orientation calls every month. But that's also why we have that forum conversations. And we are always the first to tell people, no, you shouldn't work with us. No, you should move on to EOS maybe, no, you should go to Zenpilot. Because we really want to make sure that people are here for the journey that we can provide. Because it is a fixed journey in many ways. Just like many other product ties offers.

I Think I was mentioning this to you before we hit record. Occasionally we'll get people who ask, what's the difference between Zenpilot and process driven?

And then you start laughing and you say, oh, I can't answer this question.

I'm biased. I'm biased. Definitely don't go to process driven as usual. No, I'm just kidding. So one of the benefits, and I think we one of the things that makes us different. This is one of the things that I'll use depending on who people are comparing us to, if they're talking about, hey, I found this other ClickUp consultant who we're looking at. I think you and I both share the same thing. I think we put a very abnormal amount of focus people understanding the why behind how everything is built. So I always start with the blueprint so that they understand all the whys and they've got clarity on why are we doing this? Before we start building something, can we first make sure it's even the right thing to get built? But I love that about your model, that it's got to be somebody who wants to understand they know it all because they've built it all and they've made those decisions. How do you deal with what's the common. And I don't know how common this is, but I'm sure there are people who say, all right, I've got this design now can you just build some of this for me? And how do you resist that urge to get into this is tied a little bit to the business model decision too that you've gone down. But how do you handle those folks who are just like, hey, I need some hands on build for me kind of done for me or at least, you know, some components of it. What's the standard answer?

Yeah, so people who want done for you. I made a whole video about this on the YouTube channel because I feel strongly after having done done for you for years and I know this is in contrast with some of the things here. But here's a difference. I strongly believe done for you is a short term win and still opens up the opportunity for long term problems. Unless you have that person who's doing your done for you services on retainer to fix it every time your process changes, to teach your team every time a new person comes on, which you can certainly do that. I know Zenpilot provides services like that. But also ClickUp ClickUp now is taking that nod and saying, we'll do it all for you. Just pay us the reason. So when people, sorry to get back to the question. When people come to us and say, you know, we just want it built, my first question is always, why? Usually their answer makes no sense, but of course we don't say that. But I just. I want them to understand and to see their own thoughts as to why they want it. Oftentimes they say, oh, I want it here because I want it all done fast so I can save time. And then my question next is, all right, you'll save time on setup. So how are you going to learn the tool? Oh, you're going to learn it all by taking apart the whole machine and then putting it back together and hopefully get it. You can't outsource learning. You can outsource setup, but not learning. So that's our first question. But after that first layer, if people feel strongly, I trust people to know themselves and their businesses. If people feel strongly that a done for you model is the right fit for them, by all means, there are people for whom that is the best fit. And that's where we refer to folks like yourself. We refer out to consultants. We kind of try to have a again, find the best solution for you mentality when it comes to any of this. I would say this happens probably three times a day. Probably about 20 to. Oh, my gosh, probably more than that. More than 20 times a week. I would say we are referring away to other consultants because people do not want to learn the skills themselves and correctly or incorrectly assume that getting it done for them is going to save them time in the long run. That's kind of our standard response.

Yeah. I'm sure that there is the. That you've looked at the opportunity to say, hey, we'll just spin up a service side of the business.

Absolutely.

And be able to do that. And thus far, you've resisted it, but that's consistent with kind of the message that you're preaching. But is it just that commitment, or is there something else keeping you from spinning up a services component to the business?

I believe that the right move in business is something that needs to be found and discovered. Like Michelangelo chipping away our decision for the past how many years is not necessarily the decision we'll always make. But I will say, just like you're saying we have chosen to turn away, I would say conservatively, millions of dollars in revenue each year in done for you services because of our beliefs and because of the mission of the business, right now is around changing the way teams work. And to me at least, that done for you model is a separate business. It's a separate skill set. We could do it pretty easily. We could probably whip it all up in a month and get ready and get started. But we've chosen not to because we want to be really good at what we do, which is giving knowledge to people. That is training and teaching is a whole different skill set than executing or consulting. In some ways, I view this as serving a need that is underserved in the market right now. There are how many ClickUp consultants of various sizes and forms? There are very few people who are willing to say I'm not the expert, you are. Or at least you will be by the time we're done.

Right. Right. I love it. I think that you are leaving a lot of revenue on the table.

It's a little painful if you think about it too closely.

There's a part of me that's like citrus answer. But at the same time we are doing the same thing. There's a ton of pull pressure and push pressure from ClickUp to say, will you guys please service non agencies on top of ClickUp? The challenge obviously that they run into and it's just the nature of the ClickUp consultant space is there's way more demand than there is supply. The people who are good do not have supply. They don't have the availability. Which leads to inconsistency in outcomes and people being disappointed with consultants. I'm sure probably a ton of people who go to ProcessDriven have already worked with consultants.

Yep.

Yeah. And so there's a lot of pressure from ClickUp to say we know the results that we can get from zenpilot. Can you guys please expand and service other niches? So it's the same. There's just figuring out that commitment to who are we at this point in time and let's earn the right. There's still a ton of opportunity in our market. There's a huge amount of opportunity just, just in your market. So I love that discipline around. And it may not be permanent. There may be a time when Zenpilot changes or process driven changes and there's some expansion there. But for the time being we're going to earn the right to move on to doing more things by just staying super focused on what we're doing right now.

And I just want to say the question about services.

Oh, go ahead.

I just wanted to chime in and say one reason why I love to hear that from you guys is because, and I hope this informs anyone listening who's comparing our offers. I really use zenpilot as not Just click up, set up. Now tell me if I'm wrong and be like, zip it. But I view you guys as doing operational consulting for agencies. Operational consulting requires very in the weeds knowledge of a specific space. It's a different kind of thing than training, which is where I live. And so I respect you making that choice to focus in on a model, which I really consider agencies more of a model than an industry at this point because it's so expansive. But that model is huge. There's a huge amount of people there. But you having that kind of operational detail, I think that allows you to do again, more than ClickUp, which is nice to hear.

Yeah, I think that that's what I always tell people is like click ups the Trojan horse in our business model. A lot of people come to us because of finding content we've produced about ClickUp for agencies. Okay, here's some niche content. Here's somebody who's written and shared a bunch of what they've learned about it. But the reality is we're not trying to make clickups, just the vehicle to get there. That's the tool to deliver the outcome. What you're looking for is how do we give our entire team clarity from an executive layer, how do I have the insights I need to run a better business to the kind of middle management layer of, you know, how do I stay on top of my set of clients or my specific team or my department to the individual contributors, how do they have clarity on what am I supposed to do, when does it need done, what's the priority order and how do I actually do that, what's the process to deliver it? And so at the point in time where we feel like, okay, ClickUp's no longer the best fit for most agencies most of the time, like then we'll go implement on top of teamwork or on top of, you know, what, whatever that platform is. So it's not a. Yeah, it's definitely not a click up first business model, which is cool that we're in the same boat. I asked a question about services because I'm curious about what's the long term goal and however long you want to define long term as is this like the next year things that you're excited about, but what's kind of your vision for ProcessDriven moving forward?

Big question.

That's a, that's a very big question.

Yeah, just, just a tiny little. Oh, by the way, no, I view the core of ClickUp. You know, let me put this in contrast. I think that might help Me explain it a bit better. I in many ways use zenpilot as an agency operations consultant and I'm putting those words out there everyone. He can correct me if I'm wrong. Okay. I view you guys as that and oh yeah, ClickUp is how you do that. I view processdriven as a process systemization company. That's what we do. It's not about how you deliver, how you generate revenue and helping you have that down. It's not about EOS and having your company operating system down. It's about having a framework of the niche, niche, niche, niche, niche problem of how do you actually record what you do and make it easy for others to help you do it. That's what I view our business as. So, so when you ask, you know, where are we heading, where do we want to go? I'm not going to be satisfied until ProcessDriven is the resource that people go to for free or in paid ways to get that foundation established. You know, someone in, you know, Spain is starting a new business. They're going to become a contractor because we handle many industries, not just agencies and they want to figure out, you know, how do I even start writing down what I do so that this business doesn't kill me. I want us to be their first resource, their first Google search result, that first help article that helps them get that way. And I really view us being that kind of training. It hopefully like a tiny little training. I would say light at the end of a very dark tunnel for most small teams. Whether that team is small at 20 or small at one person. That kind of limbo land before you are big enough to have the executive team and all of those other things that help enforce structures before that point. It is a dark world for small businesses and when I think of our big vision it will be being that first resource.

I love that that's in our three year picture in EOS parlance is like Zenpilot is the number one authority that people turn to for agency operations. Yeah insights whether that's paid or whether they want hands on implementation. So I think that makes a ton of sense. Is there anybody when you say that? I think of people. I don't know if you're familiar with Tiago Forte but I think of people kind of like that who are building out. He's kind of known for hey how to build a second brain and personal knowledge management. Are there any influences that you look to like who's got the business model or has replicated this in another niche that you're Trying to maybe not completely copy, but there's an emulation in a bad way. Who inspires you. That's the better way to put it.

I think it's first, I'll say that in our niche, many people have tried to do this in some way. Many have failed. I can't point to one that has really succeeded at this point. Everyone has fizzled out or gone down the, you know, certified consultants, that kind of path. And then it kind of diffuses the brand and it no longer becomes that central hub. Inspiration that I'm taking from for where we want to go is actually a very off the ball one. Which is a software company, not to say we will ever get into software at all. But Gusto. Gusto is an HR software and they really inspired this for me because whenever I have an HR related question for hiring our next employee in Missouri, which was literally happening a few weeks ago, I would type in how to hire in Missouri Gusto. They were so top of mind for me before I even used them that they were always the authority I would look to for free help. And when it became time, how long ago to hire employees, they were the first person I went to. I think Gusto does a fantastic job of that content empire. That content, you know, just that public good of that content. I also look to resources like Profit first, which has nothing to do with process at all. But it's a book. I also have a coaching program, but, you know, whatever. But book and free content, where people take that tiny little concept of envelope budgeting and they're able to get their business off the ground because of it. And it's transformative in its simplicity. I don't think we'll ever be that simple or accessible. But how they've become kind of synonymous with entry level bookkeeping and budgeting, that's inspiring too. But no one's done it yet. Really.

That's really cool. I think the similarity. So I feel like there's two different things there that maybe are worth just pointing out real quickly here. Gusto. There is very little clickbait content on Gusto. If you read through any of their blogs, everything is good. It's not the. Yeah, it's really detailed and super helpful. So as soon as you say that, then in my mind I'm already picturing how detailed and how many of those same articles I've read. If you don't consistently produce content like that, nobody's typing in Gusto at the end of the search query. If they're used to getting half clickbait and then every once in a while, there's something that's really substantive, I think, that lines up well with your brand. Like, you're doing a good job of that today. If stuff comes out, Layla's name is on this. That's probably gonna be worth paying attention to. And then with Mike Michalowicz, who we've had on the podcast.

Oops, sorry, Mike. Didn't mean to insult your consulting program.

No. Yeah. So I think what he's done kind of conversely, is he's gone super. Maybe not conversely, but he's gone super, super simple. It's oversimplification for a larger. I think he does a good job of calling out, who is this for? This is not for the thousand person enterprise business. This would be way, way, way too simplistic. But you said, I think your words were maybe early stage bookkeeping, early stage finance or something small business. And so I think he's done a really good job of he's accessible because it's really simple. And he's an excellent storyteller.

Right. Each book I feel like that he's written kind of tells a story, and I don't think they've all resonated the same way as that Profit first piece. That particular book's brand is really inspiring. But what I love about that is it's solving kind of an epidemic problem, an endemic problem, excuse me, of, you know, the people in business not making any money. And I view us in the same way people in business not getting any peace, feeling any sense of control. And I view that as so different than where you guys are at in that operations consulting beast. That's a beautiful area. But that's why when you told me, you know, people are asking the difference between ProcessDriven and Zen Pilot, I'm like, what? They seem to, you know, not quite get the fundamental differences in what each of us provide. I view us. And. And, sorry, if people don't agree. I view Zenpilot and ProcessDriven as compliments. They have a lot of overlap in, like, wonderful ways I could not imagine doing. If you need both of these things, why would you do one without the other? They solve two different problems. They work together.

Right, right. Okay, here's the last thing for you, and then I'll let you go. This is kind of a compliment slash, also a question at the same time. Oh, you just. You described the mission. Don't worry, not a backhand compliment. I love the name Process Driven. It really, really is well aligned with what your mission is for the future. Do you feel like that. I forget even when you rolled out ProcessDriven as the name, but do you feel like that was their intentional painstaking process to get there and figure out what name we're gonna roll with? Or did you luck into that at all? That's the question.

Oh, man. Yeah, you're right. So we started off with a different name when I was just. I mean, I started this business as a virtual assistant and many people can probably relate to that. I started as services virtual assistant. I think my first job was $15 an hour, which my professors from college would have been like rolling in, you know, not their graves, but rolling in their academic chairs and the rebrand of ProcessDriven. I wanted to shift the business to be around process. That was the word I wanted. Because at that time I had started, I was in consulting by that point. I was consulting about tech stacks and I was very process centric. So everything was around like, what's your journey? What's, you know, the love language that you guys also have at send Pilot. And I spent an entire evening with my lovely spouse who puts up with me somehow. And he and I were going through and just trying to spitball every single name that made any sense with the word process in it. And we did the same thing every business owner does of look it up on domains and check to see if it's free on handles. And originally I wanted to be the process shop. That was the name. I originally like garage theme, like mechanics, vibe, because I was originally serving primarily contractors and construction industry. That's where I worked a lot when I was early on. And one day, like in that journey, I wrote the word process driven with no hyphen. And I was like, huh, Wonder if that would work. I mean, grammatically incorrect, but who cares? And it was available as long as we put a dot co. And I was like, all right, done. Yeah, we're doing that. So a combination, I would say. And the it has only gotten more aligned with the vision as we've now moved on beyond where we started. I mean, this whole business model, everything has been an evolution.

Yeah. That's awesome. Well, good for you. The journey's been awesome to watch. I'm excited to continue to see it evolve and for you to own that space. You mentioned co kind of as a throwaway, but the site processdriven co. Where do you point people? YouTube, obviously. I'm assuming would be the site is one. Is there anywhere else that we should point people?

Yes. So the site is a great spot to go as the hub of everything. So processdriven. Co Hub. Hub. That's usually where I'll point people first because it's got videos, writing, training. I think if anyone goes through a few of our videos, this conversation that Gray and I are having here will make so much more sense of the difference and complementary nature of these two businesses. That's where I would send people. Is Hub perfect.

All right, Layla, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it.

Thanks so much, Gray.