Brand Voice + Tone Deep-Dive with HubSpot Content Hub [HubHeroes, Video EP79]

Subject. I definitely recommend, after listening to this one, circle back, put a pin in that one, listen to it as well. But it brought up a renewed emphasis on a conversation that I have always felt that in the Big Mallory has been completely overlooked in most cases. It's something most organizations never, ever talk about, and that is the brand voice and tone conversation. Now, I would want, before we start today's conversation, to just give some definitions, right? Because there are a lot of different ways that people describe or define these terms. It's my house.

Yeah.

It's my house, and these are my rules.

Yeah.

When we say brand voice, here's what we're talking about. This is your brand's personality. This is what should come to mind in terms of how your most ideal customers describe you without you having to tell them, Right. You don't want to have to tell them that you're friendly and warm and welcoming. They should be able to infer that automatically. Tone is something that is often incorrectly conflated with the idea of voice. Are they related ideas? Yes. But whereas voice is static, meaning this is you all the time, tone is dynamic, meaning it is how you adjust the quote tone of your voice depending on certain circumstances. So, for example, let's say you have a blog article. In a blog article, you may have a little bit more fun, a little bit more whimsy, a little bit more personalized storytelling, a little bit more editorializing, right? That's one tone of voice in a case study, however, you may be a bit more journalistic, a little more just the facts. Now, it's still the same brand, but instead of ye in one part of your tone and rooting into another, or if we want to put this in a more human way, can you. Can you give me a good human? Can a girl be a good human around here?

Do you need a good human?

She may ask. But let's put it in a more human context. Nails is loud and unabashedly loves Nicolas Cage, Godfather, and all of those different things, right? I see George and I'm like, hey, Ben, how's it hanging? How are you Living like Nicolas Cage today because he looks happy, he looks excited, right? But let's imagine throwing in and rolling up one when my girlfriend's at brunch, but I see her and she's already at least one or two mimosas deep. She's got a cub in her hands. She's really upset. I'm going to roll up with a little bit more of a modulated tone of voice and say, hey, girl, but what would Nicolas Cage do? Still the same Nicolas Cage obsessed we are now. Different tonal packaging. So that's what we mean when we say voice until. But George, I know I'm not feeling excited about this conversation. I know I'm not. So why are you excited? Why is this something that you think is. This is important for us to be talking about today?

Yeah. So I think I'm excited first. That's what I want to talk about. Because we are headed in a direction that directly aligns to it a fundamental need and a principle if we want to achieve an output in the manner in which we're going to need to create based on this genesis, this, this adventure, this cosmic change that has happened to the world around AI, AI generated content, AI generated imagery, AI generated anything. And sometimes when the world gets crazy, you just got to go back to the basics. You got to go back to the principles. And voice and tone is one of these principles. And HubSpot has entered the room. They have brought up the conversation. They have created a tool. They have used the magical word or words, brand voice. Why is it important? Because brand voice is important. Why am I excited? It is important because I know that 85 to 95% of the humans that go try to use that tool right now are probably going to jack up their brand voice, or 85 to 95% of the people who are listening to this podcast might not be able to actually tell us what their brand voice is. And listen. Why is it important? Because one, if you have a brand voice and everybody understands how to use it, and it is in HubSpot in the tool in the proper way, which, by the way, Saleem will talk about the tool and maybe its possible dysfunctions and how it might get better in the future. Because I see you in the chat pain and your disappointment. But we'll talk about that a little bit. Emotional connection. Listen. A well crafted brand voice can convey emotions and personality. Oh my God. Things that humans have. Imagine that fact. Allowing a brand to connect with its own audience on a more personal level because of its emotions and its personality. This emotional engagement is key to our customers loyalty and them being our future evangelist. So you have to think about brand voice and emotional connection. Why? Because emotional connection is a human element that we need to have. Oh, yeah. The second thing that I want to talk about is trust and reliability. Like again, these. I'm going very human on why this is important. To get it right in general and get it double right. The freak in HubSpot, because consistency and communication Guess what that does? Builds trust. You know what brand voice is trying to do to your HubSpot blogs? They're trying to McDonald's it, they're trying to Wendy's it. They're trying to chick fil a it. You get a sandwich here, you get a sandwich there, you get a sandwich everywhere, and it all tastes like the same sandwich. In other words, we want our content to have a consistency that builds what, the T word? Trust. When a brand uses a consistency.

Not tortillas.

No, not tortillas. No, not tortillas. Not. And not any other T word that is trying to come to my mind right now. But.

Right.

We gotta make sure that if it's marketing, if it's sales, if it's service, if it's knowledge articles, if it's blog articles, if it's snippets and chat panes, consistent brand voice to build trust and reliability. And the third thing, Liz, that I want to bring up is identity and recognition. How the heck do we stand out as the needle in this pile of haystacks? By being who we are. By being able to communicate in a way that makes us different. By being able to stand out in a crowded marketplace. You have to have a brand voice that communicates consistently and becomes recognizable amongst the noise and nonsense that happens out on the interwebs. This is why I'm excited about today's conversation, Liz.

You know, this is something I thought we had worked on a few months ago. You know, a few months ago.

I'm trying to bring up the passion.

I know, but. I know. And so this is the concern I have. I don't. I'm not feeling it. I'm not sure. Where do you stand on this issue? So just.

I'll try better coaching moment the next. Yeah, the next time you ask me a question, I will. I will try better.

I'm. That's all I'm asking.

Okay.

No, I. I'm totally on board with you, and I love so much of what you said there. We're really talking about identity and we're talking about trust. We're talking about, for those of you out there, for example, who may. Maybe you use. They ask, you answer, maybe you've heard.

Of it and be able to be more human. Like. Like there are certain brands that are very buttoned up, and we are definitely not one of those. And it's a reflection of who we are. But also I think it's a reflection of how good we are. Because the way I say, the way I see it, the better you are at what you do, the more you can afford to let your hair down. So, yeah, that's it.

Look, the way I like to think about it is like, if I know where the boundaries of the sandbox are, I can play sand aside as I want. I just need to know what my little plane pen is since I might get out a little bit, but, you know, I'm messing. That's fine. I'm fine with that. So I throw a snap to either of you because I have thoughts on this, but I'm curious to get your takes on what does a great brand voice and tone sound like? Donal, jump in at once.

I think it varies based on the company. Like, for me, brand voices, whatever the flavor it is, the key is authenticity. When brands try to come off as something that they're not, it shows. Like, during, like, you look at everyone who was jumping on the Black Lives Matter bandwagon during the whole George Floyd incident, and you can tell what was authenticity, what was virtue signaling, virtue signaling, and what was just plain bandwagoning? And it's just like, authenticity is what it boils down to regardless of what you sound like. And so if you need to change, change. Whatever company that I am in, I try to, you know, follow companies that. Whose brand voice is closer to my voice because I'm, you know, a media person and I spend a lot of time on screen. I don't want to end up going on screen for a very buttoned up company. And then I got, you know, Deadpool in the background like. Like, I even have to tone down some of my Deadpool for. For HubSpot sometimes.

So, yeah, I don't think anybody should ever have to tone down Deadpool. Like, I. I'm trying to get past that to actually answer the question. Like, and again, I think. I think Devon hit, like, kind of this out of the park when I think about what it sounds like. And I don't necessarily mean like an audible tone or anything, but like, words like consistent, authentic, you know, distinctive. You could. It stands out in the crowd. Depending on the brand, it might have little tweaks where it might be empathetic or it might be humorous. That's like, that I go to, for some reason, when you ask that question, Liz, I go to, like, singular words that when combined, create a greater power than when they are separated. Right. It's almost like this. This begat that, beget that concept. Which is interesting because that's like the fourth time I've said that this week. Anyway, not why we're Here there's like, there's a power in the chain of things that belong together, right? And as soon as you remove one of the things, like let's say we have four things and you look at them, they're going to give you a perception, a feeling, a thought. You remove one out and add a new block and all of a sudden you might get a completely different thought, thought or feeling or emotion. And so I think it's really interesting to think about this question that you ask. What does a great brand voice and tone sound like? And think about asking that question to the actual. And I'm talking to the listeners right now, by the way. Apply that question to your brand. Like, what does a great brand voice and tone sound like? And is it you like. Anyway, just some thoughts.

You know, the funny thing is first of all, I agree with authenticity and then the first word that actually came to my mind is George, one that you said and that is disdained. But my real answer to this is what does a great brain, voice and tone sound like for you? Well, you're still not what you think. So to give you an example, George, you know this, this is actually something I have specialized in over the past 10 years. I do a lot of voice and tone and messaging development for companies across a wide range of industries, right. Healthcare, healthcare staffs, recruiting, sales and marketing, accounting, financial services, expense contracting, like you name it. I probably talk to a company there and helps them with their voice and tone. But I'd want to tell a story to explain what I mean when I say it doesn't sound like what you think. Tone is part of a larger messaging strategy he had. He was tech, you would technically call it a startup, but he came, he had such cache in eachin now what was interesting is that when I took them through my voice and tone picture you painted of what you want this company to sound like. This is all about the imprint of an undeniable fingerprint, right? The thing that makes you you. We're going to get into how the tool does and does not help that. But Dennis, I want to turn to you for a moment. What are your thoughts in relationships when brand, voice and children. Is this something that's ever talked about at HubSpot or is it something you ever think about? Where are you in Spectrum? Said in the Ben.

Yeah, I might have heard it mentioned once or twice here to the point that we have guidelines and rules and like there's things you can and can't say and ways you can and can't say them. Things we, we take our voice very seriously and, and our branding very seriously and. But what it boils down to is just being able to be, you know, able to make those connections, be able to be more human. Like, like, there are certain brands that are very buttoned up and we are definitely not one of those. And it's a reflection of who we are, but also I think it's a reflection of how good we are. Because the way I say, the way I see it, the better you are at what you do, the more you can afford to let your hair down. So, yeah, that's it.

Look, the way I like to think about it is like, there we go. If I know where the boundaries of the sand maps are, I can plan and sand as high as I want. I just need to know what my little plane pen is. Some sand might get out a little bit, but you know, I'm messing. That's fine. I'm fine with that. So I'm gonna throw a snap to buy the review. Cause I have that sentence. Been curious to get your chainsaw. What does a great brand voice and tone sound like? Tony, I'll jump in at once.

I think it varies based on the company. Like for me, brand voices, whatever the flavor, it is, the key is authenticity. When brands try to come off as something that they're not, it shows. Like during, like, you look at everyone who was jumping on the Black Lives Matter bandwagon during the whole George Floyd incident and you can tell what was authenticity, what was virtue signal, virtue signaling, and what was just plain bandwagoning. And it's just like, authenticity is what it boils down to regardless of what you sound like. And so if you need to change, change whatever company that I am in, I try to, you know, follow companies that. Whose brand voice is closer to my voice. Because I'm, you know, a media person and I spend a lot of time on screen. I don't want to end up going on screen for a very buttoned up company. And then I got, you know, Deadpool in the background. Like, I even have to tone down some of my Deadpool for, for HubSpot sometimes.

So, yeah, I don't think anybody should ever have to tone down Deadpool. Like, I. I'm trying to get past that to actually answer the question. Like, and again, I think, I think Devin hit like kind of this out of the park when I think about what it sounds like. And I don't necessarily mean like an audible tone or anything, but like words like consistent, authentic, you know, distinctive, or you could it stands out in the crowd. Depending on the brand, it might have little tweaks where it might be empathetic or it might be humorous. That's like that. I, I go to, for some reason when you ask that question, Liz, I go to like singular words that when combined, create a greater power than when they are separated. Right. It's almost like this, this begat that. Begat that concept. Which is interesting because that' the fourth time I've said that this week. Anyway, not why we're here. There's like, there's a power in the chain of things that belong together, right. And as soon as you remove one of the things, like let's say we have four things and you look at them, they're going to give you a perception, a, a feeling, a thought. You remove one out and add a new block and all of a sudden you might get a completely different thought or feeling or emotion. And so I think it's really interesting to think about this question that you ask. What does a great brand voice and tone sound like? And think about asking that question to the actual. And I'm talking to the listeners right now, by the way. Apply that question to your brand. Like, what does a great brand voice and tone sound like? And is it you like? Anyway, just some thoughts.

You know, the funny thing is, first of all, I agree with authenticity. And then the first word that actually came to my mind is George, one that you said. And that is distinct. But my real answer to this is, what does a great brain, voice and tone sound like for you? Well, you're still not what you think. So to give you an example towards, you know, this, this is actually something I have specialized in over the past 10 years. I do a lot of voice and tone and messaging development for companies across a wide range of industries. Right. Healthcare, healthcare staffs, recruiting, sales and marketing, accounting, financial services, fence contracting, like you name it. I'd probably talk to a company there and helps them with their voice and tone. But I'd want to tell a story to explain what I mean when I say it doesn't sound like what you think. There was a gentleman who had started a company in the ad technology space and was looking to develop his brand voice and tone as part of a larger messaging strategy. He had. He was tech, you would technically call it a startup. But he came, he had such cachet in the industry that he started his startup very high. And today it's an incredible community that he has built based on his reputation. Now, what was interesting is that when I took him through my voice and tone workshop. I had him along with his group so he has other people that work with him and the brand was not meant to just be him. I took them through, took them through a bunch of exercises. George, are familiar with these where you have to self identify, where you have to find out don't say them. Such an intervalist.

I mean I tried to bring it, really bring it that time.

Yes, yes. What was fascinating though is when I asked him some of the exercises is, you know, what are your yeses in terms of the attributes you want to be associated with and what are your nos that you do not want to be associated with. What was funny is that two of his nose were opinionated and funny. And so I stopped and I said, rob, I just need to ask you something. Are you going to wake up tomorrow morning and become a fundamentally different person? Because this is a, this is who you are, this is what the brand has always been and B, this is also what people expect for you. Like the picture you painted of what you want this company to sound like is authentically the antithesis of the soul of who you are. So this is where I think we get into a really interesting conversation about brand ways and tone. Maybe because it's a niche discussion for another day, but I think it's important when we answer this question there. I think a brand voice and tone often like core values, right? Core values are often created by companies, well meaning companies and their set of aspirations. They're not necessarily reflective of the core values that truly drive the business. Right. Doesn't mean that they don't have to be honest. Congratulations. People are a greatest differentiator. Everyone wants to be honest, right. It's like there's those types of things and voice and tone is kind of the same thing. Well, we want to be this, we want to be that. But is that actually who you are? One of the ways you make a cohesive and authentic brand experience is that the experience somebody has with your, your brand voice and tone online match the experience they will have with the humans once they get through the door. It is your digital handshake. Like George, you and I have another client, right? They're in the financial services space most of the time. It's their boring, it's very slack. Not these guys. Yeah, absolutely not. They're good at Spock. They have spark, they have sass, they have moxie. Is it grounded in authentic professionalism and expertise? 100%. But one of the things that we've heard one Osley said just to Stay the damn thing. Say directly and plainly. And that's where we've moved their voice. So those are my thoughts.

I love it. I love it. You know, it's funny because I, I can't help but think of, like, how much do organizations care and this idea of caring and wrapping that around. Because here's, here's my Liz, My, my worry if, like, I know sometimes we do like a hashtag, one thing to remember. My, My hashtag, one worry is that people aren't putting the brain power, the time and understanding the importance of this piece right here that we're talking about and how much it fundamentally impacts everything downstream from it that we've talked about historically and we'll talk about in the future.

Well, I think, George, maybe you can speak to this a little bit because you've been through my process and I think what happens is it's not that people don't want to put the time into it. They just think it's a. Oh, we would like to be friendly. Our friend voices.

Yeah.

As someone who has had to go down the rabbit hole, as someone who has had to sit there while I go poke, poke, poke, poke, poke until a voice falls out. But what was different about it than when you expected? Because I genuinely believe for most people, it's because they don't realize there's an actual methodology you could follow.

Yeah, well, let's get real honest real quick. I was like most mere humans and I said, I need some words for my website. That's what I said. And what ensued after that was me laying on the therapy couch and having to go back to all of my, like, professional childhood trauma and my future aspirations. And like, that's what I. And I, I'm trying to get at. Like, sometimes you gotta. You gotta like, use a hammer and a chisel to create a masterpiece. Sometimes you gotta, you know, pull out the saw or the drill to, like, build the foundation. And this for me was that, like, it was stripping away the garbage, getting the real perspective to where we are headed and understanding copy for my website was only a small piece of what was gonna come out of the work and the diligence to actually mold or build this foundational pillar of the brand voice moving forward. And then what we could do, because we had that from an AI standpoint. Oh, hang on, that's later in the episode.

Oh, we're about to get there. So don't you worry. I'm going to say one little thing, George, and then we can dive right into the tools. You play like A really good point there about the chisel because as somebody who does this work, very often I find with people it's mostly stripping away what people think they're supposed to sound like and then giving them permission to just be who they already are. That's usually the process. That's usually the like, for example, the guy who didn't want to be opinionated and fight, he does that naturally. That is who he is. Quite frankly, it's a lot of who the people are who work with him. There's sort of a reverence to them, even though they all show up in a slightly different way. I put this in the chat that and have with our live studio audience because Nick from Progress is something. It's kind of like your real voice, brave voice, probably sounds different to yourself than others. And so I said yes. And we often don't recognize or we misidentify what actually attracts and brings and brings people to us.

Yeah.

So that's why this work is really fascinating. Often we're already going out there and doing the thing. We already have the authentic grand voice. We are walking around with it all the time. That financial services firm I was just talking about, they already sounded like that. It's giving them permission to connect the dots, to bring that digitally into that space. So, Judith, you started to tease this a little bit. This goes really nicely into our next question. What do you need to be aware of when you're crafting one of your own brand voice rules into HubSpot? And I know this digs into some of the work that we've been doing, but George, taken away, I want to hear from you on this.

Yeah, so. Well, first of all, you use the keyword awareness or be aware of their. So first thing to realize as you're listening to this, it's content Hub, Enterprise. Just a fair warning, if you don't have the enterprise version, you won't be able to get to. The second thing that you need to be aware of is where the frick it lives. Because I was like, where are they going to put that in the settings. And what's nice is it's account defaults branding my brand kits and in brand kits there's brand voice. You need to be aware of that when you hit the start button to do this thing that you're going to need a writing sample of at least 500 words. Now I would suggest more like and also I would suggest it be a really good piece that you're 100% sure displays your brand voice. I wish it was More than one piece.

It really needs to be more than one piece because of the tone conversation.

I wish you could program it more. Anyway, you'll then need to tell it like the site. I do love this part by the way. If you give it a blog, tell it it's a blog. If you give it a, you know, case study, tell it's a case study. Because then it has context. Which context for AI is one of the massive pillars that we always need to be paying attention to when we're doing things, generating things. So this context of it's this type of content at least and then it's going to ask you for a target audience. So be aware of that. Like hopefully you know that. I think you know that. But there's a knowing that in the sales and marketing side of things and then losing your brain because you think that you're doing something new and exciting with AI and you just start type typing the stuff that absolutely makes no sense. Like HubSpot gives you an example. They basically say one to two sentences. I wish it was longer than one sentences because context is king and specificity wins the day. By the way. These are basic communication principles and we're freaking communicating with AI to tell it how it's going to treat everything we do passes. Anyway, HubSpot gives us an example. Marketing professionals at small to medium sized business looking to streamline their marketing efforts, generate leads and grow their online presence. Beautiful. That's nice. How do they feel? Like I want to go into the roles, goals and challenges. By the way, can HubSpot somebody from HubSpot can you? Well, it's probably because 90% of the user uses using the Personas tool wrong. But in a perfect world there be some way that brand voice would connect to the Persona tool where people have actually lived, live, listed out the roles, goals and challenges of those humans and be able to pull in any of the psychographic demographic and stories that they've actually built inside of their HubSpot Personas and it would be part of their brand voice instead of actually having to reprogram it with this little two line thing that doesn't.

It makes me want to see it anyway.

Like these are things that you need to be aware of. Like oh, when you're programming an AI voice, like I can't wait till inbound 24Y'.

All.

I have already started to build out slides where I'm showing the specificity, the context, the, the mathematical mental equations that one can actually put in to get astronomically different results. If HubSpot is going to be my all in one place to create my content. And if it is going to be the replacement for any AI tool that I might choo to use elsewhere, then ladies and gentlemen, we quickly have to get a little bit better at this part right here. Because here's the thing so important I.

Think that the gaps Elspeth and husband call me, give them another. I will talk to them all day about this. I think it's because most people don't realize how it's supposed to come together. I also think sometimes it's because HubSpot is trying to make the lowest barrier to entry possible in order to use a tool. Because I can imagine if I'm using HubSpot for the first time and I'm starting to dig in there, I might have like a mild panic attack If I have 18 different things to figure out. But the reality is when I looked at the tool, I felt the exact same way. It's because HubSpot is trying to make the lowest barrier to entry possible in order to use a tool. Because when I think of what drives the tone changes, right? What literal. Because I could imagine if I'm using HubSpot for the first time and I'm starting to dig in there, I might have like a mild panic attack If I have 18 different things to figure out. But the reality is when I looked at the tool, I felt the exact same way. It's how someone is feeling about a topic. And George, you and I were experimenting with ChatGPT and web pilot earlier this week and one of the things that you and I were talking about is that you have to identify who the person is. We have to identify why they are asking this particular question. So if it's about a specific topic, why? And then it's how do they feel about it? Because you could have a content manager who was asking, what is a content strategy? Why? Because they want to know what it is so they can do their job better. But how do they feel about it? Probably pretty freaking stressed because the content manager is suddenly going to Google and asking what is a content strategy? I guarantee you about 15. Or that their boss walked up and said, by the way, can you get me that content strategy for all the stuff we're publishing? And they're like, sure thing, boss. And then you know what? They're like, we didn't it for his. And then they're like the editorial counter that was the content strategy. That's like, I better go find out what that is so I can.

Yeah, fast forward the boss comes back out, asks where Bob or Susie is and their co worker that sits next to him goes, oh, they all sudden got the flu and had to go home. I don't know what happened.

Yep, I agree. The only thing I will say also, and this is where again, another conversation for another day. Because Devin, I have a question for you. Saying that poison tone will never replace though is the story you tell. And this is where we always have to be really careful about it, right? Voice and tone tool can make you sound warm, it can make you sound friendly. If they gave us a few more options about tone, authentic human and dialed in from a tone perspective is a viable, spooky, scary little transit manager who's afraid about losing their job. I want to show up, not just friendly, I'm going to show up warm and understanding and validating and like a guide. And my tone is slightly different, right? But that voice and tone tool is never going to be able to out of thin air be able to convey the story that I used to once be a content manager who was effing terrified, who was once asked that question, who did not know how to answer it. And that is the one thing voice and toe. Voice and tone is not the what and say, it's the how you say. Just remember that it is your packaging on the message you already have. Devin, what do you think our listeners need to know about when they start playing around with voice and tone? Because whether or not they actually have access to this enterprise level stuff in the contact hub, there are ways to play around with voice and tone when it comes to generative AI content rewriting things process what in. Where does your brain go in terms of how you want a director or HubSpot again? Oh, he's already smiling.

Look at that smile. That's like the most.

Nick from Fargo, he. He's telling me to spill my guts and, and he's. He's just. Chat has been going great. You guys definitely need to come hang out for a live or live recording.

But.

Well, my thing is with this.

I.

Hate to be the guy that does it, but you gotta check out with TED Talk. It's the thing.

We love a good shill. We love a good shill. We love it.

AI isn't going to replace the human experience and you can't expect it to. All you could. The best you can hope for is to get it to supplement it. I remember I watched, there's this channel that I watch that shows behind the scenes stories about movies and stuff like that and it was Clear that they were experimenting with AI content generation because it felt written by AI. It was bad enough that the voiceover wasn't that great, but it's like you could feel the writing style. It wasn't there. There was uncanny valley writing style that is 100% the uncanny valley where you're listening to it. You can't even figure out what's wrong about it. You just know what's wrong. Something's wrong.

It's been it.

Technology progresses. You're still not going to be able to look back on it and see what it was until we have a better example of it. But the thing is, that's half of it. It's helping you create a tone and brand that's for you to use and to take your AI content that's generated and maybe help upgrade it and wordsmith it and change it so it has your experiences, but also your branding, your voice. That's half of it. The other half is what George mentioned in the very beginning. When it comes to, you know, fast food, it's about the standardization of what you're presenting. Somebody in chat mentioned how unhinged Wendy's social media is. I love it because it is unhinged. It is also consistent. And I honestly doubt that it has been one person doing this for this entire time. It's probably one person who's defined the brand voice and then a whole bunch of interns and associates learning how to be sassy for a semester. And I would just imagine that nerd is recycling people. This is just how I imagine it's going to. But the thing is that you can't really. I'm sure somewhere at Wendy's that social media brand voice is documented.

Oh, 100%. And my favorite thing about the Wendy's brand voice is in TikTok is the thing I always tell people, you are going to want to play it safe until you see someone else not playing safe. And then you're going to realize you could have just been yourself the whole time.

Exactly.

But the real question is, Liz, do you teach that sassy course for Wendy's? Because I feel like that could have maybe been like you were the. Well, never mind.

I would take that as a compliment. But first, when we said. Wait, is he saying. Is he saying that we. I have very pick me energy right now about this. Yes, I will take credit for it. Absolutely. I guided Wendy's to the light. No, I think what it comes down to is that, like, when you get to a certain point with brands, there is this scarcity Mindset that can set in that we cannot color out of the lines lest we upset somebody, lest someone in the Internet public square points to pests and goes, no, you have hurt me and now it's your problem. What I love about Wendy's is that it showcases that, like, could you imagine if one of the bigger players had done that? And what would have happened? Like, that would have, like, it's not Wendy's specific. It is now. And everybody's trying to copy them and emulate them, but a lot of these corporate giants just won't get out of their own way. They have to be in this very specific box.

Yeah. Hang on. Before you move forward. I love that Saleem said Wendy's is great. The copycats are not, ladies and gentlemen, no truer words could be said. And. And again, it ties to the authenticity of just being you and Liz. It's funny, I. I was trying to escape part of the conversation back a couple questions ago when you talked about me going through the process. And there we got about three quarters through the process and you asked me this question, and I know maybe we shared it on this podcast or maybe it was on beyond your default podcast, but. But you asked me the question, when are you going to show up as a whole ass human? Meaning, when are you going to show up authentically as you? And if you would have asked anybody, they would have been like, yeah, George is a pretty authentic dude. Like, he is what he is and you get what you get. But they didn't realize there was these pockets that were hidden. There was like these pockets that were not. And until I realized, like, the brand was this, the ability to be the, you know, love Tupac, love Morgan Wallen, love cigars, love healthy food, love Fast and furious, love going to church. Like, it can be all of those things that make you familiar. Family, baby, family. It could be all of those things that make you who you are and you don't have to hide from any of them. And, and being authentically you and being the first mover and being able to capture in this digital world, I own me. And then watch people try to copycat that. That's the place you want to be.

That's where it gets really freaking special. Because I know, Devin, I'm sure this has happened with you as well. But you know, George, when you and I speak, when we do public speaking, people are, well, I wish I could do what you do. I just can't. As if we have some sort of permission stuff that nobody else has no right. See, Dr. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Like, you come off stage, people are saying, may I have a ship there? Oh, I can't do that. I just, I can't be that out loud. I can't be this. I can't. Look, you don't have to take yourself seriously to take what you do seriously. You can still just be your own whole ass human self. And also you have to remember, am I loud and insane? Yes. But that is just me being authentic. Your authenticity does not have to look like my authenticity. It could be drier, it can be quieter, it can be more gravitational. It can be whatever it is, but you want it to be.

Yeah.

Did you know I love this topic so much.

I love this topic.

All right, we got to start going down this rabbit hole with this question. So let's just ask it explicitly and I'm going to throw it out to both of you guys. What else do we need to be aware of when we're doing any sort of brand voice and tone work in AI Tools? Whether we're talking about HubSpot or we're talking about ChatGPT web pilot, where are they done?

Not just who's doing the talking, but who you're talking to. Celine mentioned in chat that Liquid Death is more refined than Wendy's, but still unhinged. The reason why is because you got to look at these core audiences like, like you're looking at Wendy's. It's like Wendy's is not going after the blue blood elites. They're not going after oligarchs. They're not trying to bring Yale students, Harvard students in. These are young people, not a lot of money. Yeah, let's identify and goof off. Sure. Liquid Death, Red Bull monster. Look at their brand voices. But they're trying to convey. Does an energy drink, Does a horrible tasting, overly sugar, overly caffeinated drink have anything to do with bat flips on motorcycles? Absolutely not. But the idea is that it's just, it's extreme lifestyle energy, action. Yeah, that's what we're trying to convey. That's our brand voice, that's our image. And so let's, let's, let's, let's do that. And then with liquid voice, you have that too. But if you are Liquid Death, I.

Mean, I like liquid, I like liquid voice, though.

Liquid voice. Yeah. So with Liquid, if, like, let's say IKEA started sounding like Wendy's, you'd have a problem. If Wells Fargo started sounding like Red Bull, you have a problem. Even if all of the Associates are. Everyone who's running the company is taking over. Are all, you know, first years out of Lambda Lambda Lambda and then whatever, and just throwing it up. And now we're.

Yeah, man.

Wells Fargo. Interest free check.

Yeah, buddy.

It's like, you know, whatever. It doesn't make any sense because who you're talking to. Right? It just. It. It doesn't fail. So those are the two things that you have to keep in mind.

Wait, I want to point it out. I gotta point out one thing at first.

Hang on. No. Was that a room?

Was that interrupt you.

No, no. Was that a Revenge of the Nerds callback? Lambda Lambda Lambda. Oh, my God, dude. I was like. He's. He's talking Revenge of the Nerds right now. Like, Liz, I'm ashamed of you at this moment that you did not catch what. What Devin was throwing down. I'm like, my dude figured out how to put Revenge of the Nerds into the Hub Heroes podcast on this very date. Mark your calendar.

Guys, I'm just gonna be perfectly honest with you right now. Cherish events. So sorry. I am so. I am ashamed.

This is why I could not move forward. I. I was.

I didn't ever call myself a nerdy man. I need to go reflect. Okay, we're going to flag.

There we go. Reflecting.

Things I want to note here. George, before we go to you on this question, there's one thing I wanted to point out that was not Revenge of the Nerds related. That was just so stinking smart that I think is really important here. It is. One of the things that we did before we even talked about you, George, in your process is we actually spent, what, two, three hours obsessively talking only about your customers, who they are, what the fuel, buyer, gear. And anytime you try to talk about yourself, I feel like that's tomorrow. That's tomorrow because everything starts with the people you were trying to reach. I love Devin bringing up the Red Bull example, too, because what is fascinating about Red Bull was fascinating here. Red Bull is that that adventurous lifestyle that is reflected in their voice is not just their voice. Their voice is a reflection of their actions. Red Bull isn't just an energy drink. They're a formula one team. They're an extreme diving team. They host wild, adventurous events around the world. So they are giving their voice. Their voice is only authentic because that is authentically who they are as a brand and what they're trying to bring into the world. So did you know it's like dvet just say you're a Thought leader. We actually have to lead thoughts without saying the word thought or leader and would show up that way. Get who? Sandal Dick also shot. Could you imagine if OG for Loko had a social account? Like, if that was a thing back then, that would have been wild. You're not trying to catch this.

Yeah. So first of all, we've mentioned this, but you have to understand your audience, the humans that you serve. I think it's really important that you fundamentally understand your company. By the way, when we say company, we're actually saying the humans that live inside the walls of your organization. Notice we're talking about knowing the humans interior and exterior. Here's where I think it gets interesting, especially the fact that we're moving into the HubSpot Academy portion of this podcast, meaning it doesn't matter if you use HubSpot or not. Any AI tool. These are some things to think about. If you're thinking about the humans externally and you're thinking about the humans internally and aligning the brand values, the mission, the core, the. The why and the because of what you do and the why and because of what they need. Now all of a sudden, we're getting somewhere. Magical. The other thing, Liz, you alluded to us testing and messing around is you have to realize that in every time you go to create something, you should envision the first hour or so of a season of testing and iterating. Testing and iterating. Primary prompt, secondary prompt. Primary prompt, secondary prompt. Get output. What do you want output to change? Input it back in, ask again. Like, there has to be this season of the messy middle, the massaging, the getting better at it. Just like when you had to get better at podcasting, just how you had to get better at doing sales, just how you had, like, real life, ish, you have to go through the time of getting better. So a season of testing and iterating and realizing too, Liz, once we get there, once we've reached the. The nirvana, the. The Mecca, the hill, the top of where we're trying to go, it's only the starting line. It's not the finish line. Because again, the human, you. The human, you have to come back through and use a checklist of. I need to make sure these things to be true before I hit the publish button. Because this has to look like, smell like, feel like us, which, by the way, we're so close to having a checklist to put out to the world of like. And here's how you do the final edit of your AI generated content to make sure. It is not a big, massive, 3D, foamy, squishy pile of poo.

Anyway, one of. One of my favorite things about that, which dovetails nicely into one of our final questions today, which is what we're seeing work well and what we're seeing not work well, because Georgie and I have been doing a ton of testing and sometimes tests are great and then sometimes I'm like, george, can you have real quick?

Yeah.

Can we talk?

Yeah.

And what was fascinating to me is that usually the times that we went off the rails were. And this is something that only comes out in testing. You don't learn what you actually need to have as inputs. And until sometimes you get, oh, this is. This is not an output. This is a lifestyle realistic poo.

Yes.

In the corporate setting.

Yes. Yes.

And what I found, that doesn't work really well because once again, it's the golden rule of HubSpot. HubSpot is not your strategy. HubSpot helps you execute the strategy that already exists. So if you're going in there and using AI to help generate a piece of content as a raw, rough track and your strategy is unclear, you are going to. You will not gain clarity by shoving it to robots who are only as good as the directions you give it. So it's number one. So when I say the unclear strategy, the piece you and I were working on is a common mistake that can happen, but it just gets scaled because we're using AI. Right. Like that. That's what happens. Right. That's what automation does. Do you. Do you have bad print processes and practices? Great. Automation would help you scale faster. Like that's, that's just what happens. In the case of the Ponzi that we were working on, it was a. You know, I'm not quite sure what direction I want to take. Let's see where it goes. And it can't do that because then splits the baby and then we have two half baby and it just. It doesn't work.

Which is not a good thing. No.

I got on the call and I said, I'm unclear as to what this is about. And it was clear that there was. You can see the confusion. So that's what I see. Not working. Well, the other thing is something I've already mentioned.

I love. I love calls by like that. Hold on to your thought, Liz. When Liz reaches out and she's like, I have a question. Are you talking about the sales hub or Skittles? Because I'm really not sure which one this article is about. You know, that You've just done jack some stuff up. Yeah.

But to be fair, sometimes we do this to each other and it's out of love. My favorite is when I get messages from you about tap task outlines. You're like, so how do you feel about this outline that you wrote? Great. Now talk to you. But we get there. But I think the other thing that I would play out as well is that when it doesn't work well is when you expect it to be a human.

Yeah.

When you expect it to have the story say, there is something different that happens when you actually take the time to craft a piece. We're definitely gonna have to do a couple of episodes about the stuff you and I have been doing, George, in terms of experimentation, because we've been doing some really cool stuff.

Yep.

But what fundamentally comes down to, ladies and gentlemen, is that it's not a roadmap. Doesn't know your stories, doesn't know your experience, doesn't know your past. It doesn't know how you would show up as an individual person. Because I like to imagine a piece of content of the conversation and that when you sit down and create it, you are imagining a person on the other hand thinking, know exactly who they are and you're speaking directly to them. I'm speaking directly to that content manager. I'm telling them my story about in 2017 when I was first asked that question of what where is the content strategy that I cannot. A Roman is never going to know that story. It's just never going to know. So I think that's where we get into really interesting conversations about AI. That's where we get into really interesting conversations of. I think it's only going to make it easier for great people to stand out. I mean, George, I told you the story earlier this week. I got a compliment on the newsletter I write for, beyond your default. And what was fascinating was the guy said, it was so refreshing. I said, oh, thank you. And he said, yeah, not a lie. I'm like, it's not. I wrote that. He's like, it's just so refreshing my soul and my right now. And what I'm hearing that more and more, that's clearly A.I. well, that bug. Yep. That's A.I. gone wrong. I talked to her like last week. I'm like, there is a big company that sent me three whole ass emails. I'm like, there is no brand voice. There is no tone. Is there a heartbeat?

Regardless of how much wit, how much fun you inject into it, it's still lacking a Pulse. The more we get inundated with AI content, the better we are going to be differentiating it and then being disgusted by it. It's already happening. We're already being tuning out AI generated content because we're being so inundated by it. And I think what's going to happen is that we're going to start leaning more into incorporating storytelling and analogy in a real way that describes human experience. Like, one of the reasons why I was laughing so hard earlier is because we were talking about stories of like, stories that AI can never tell. Like when I knew I was going to move to Philly and my girlfriend and I at the time were looking for houses in Philly. What I did, and please know from Philly, get mad at me. But what we did was we used Google Street View. Right? And we're. So we're going up and down streets of these prospective neighborhoods.

Nelly's going to come for you. I already know where we're going.

What we're doing is we're looking at the trash in the gutters because every street has trash. But you could tell the quality of the neighborhood by the standard of their litter. So if it was like very high end litter, you knew you were in a good neighborhood. If it was low end neighborhood, that's.

Some Whole Foods litter.

Yeah. So Whole Foods corner store litter versus no litter, then you're probably in like Cheltenham or something.

Okay, so first of all, I love that that is where this podcast went today. But also I have to. I wasn't gonna share something, but I have to share something. And this is only for the people who are watching live because you won't be able to see this. Maybe we'll put it in the show notes, maybe we won't. I have to. I wasn't gonna share something, but I have to share something. And this is only for the people who are watching live because you will see. But. But Nick from Fargo started out this chaos that is ensuing in the chat pane and he's got. Basically got a poop emoji in, poop emoji out, and Chad goes, stack your poop faster. And Nick from Fargo says, robot times poop equals to which, ladies and gentlemen, I have to share with you right here.

I'm taking a screenshot of that.

This right here says, ladies and gentlemen, write an article on leveraging HubSpot for marketing automation. This is me telling the chatgpts and the AI is what I want. And what do we get out of that? Well, what we get out of that, ladies and gentlemen, is this right? Oops. Backspace. Backspace problem right here. That's what we get, right? That's what happens with robots. That's what happens with the. Just giving it this little input. We get this right here. Okay, I'll stop sharing my screen.

Can we talk about how the poop is scared of the flies? It's just like, no, don't do it.

Yeah, yeah, don't do it. Don't land on me.

George, I have a challenge for you, and I believe in you. Okay.

Wow, that just got deep and real in, like, a sentence.

Swear to God, you give me more than one thing in answer to this question, I'll just complain about it and do nothing but, like, probably super pew for about five minutes.

Wait, we're only allowed to give one answer.

If someone only remembers one thing from this conversation, what should it be? Why, yes, sir. One thing. One thing, man. One fix.

Okay. Okay.

Can you do it?

It's difficult. Like, here's what I'll say here. Here's. Okay, one thing. In an effort to understand that hopefully most of this podcast was the HubSpot Academy version of Hub Heroes, meaning what we said could be done in and out of HubSpot. The one thing that I want you to remember is that it is okay to program, work on and get a dope brand voice put together to then input it into HubSpot with the tool set that they have right now until in the future, it might be a better tool set because you need to take the time to train it, train it, train it, train it, train it. In other words, the thing that I'm getting to, this is just like your humans take time to learn the things that you do, the products you sell, the services you provide, the challenges that they face, the goals that they have. You need to take time to train it, to understand, to have that voice that your brand wants it to use.

Or. Okay, that was a really good one thing. So I'm just gonna ignore the fact that you backdoored about three to five other things and that hefty exposition that you trump, not me.

It was one thing. It was one thing.

Words.

The one thing was train it. I just said train it. That's all I said. Just train it.

It only took you 70,000 words to do it. No, but you brought up a good point there in your 1.75 things, which is that this is work that exists and should already be happening outside of HubSpot. Like brand voices and tone is not something I specialized in. Because one day Hasan said You can put in two sentences about a brand voice. No, no. This is stuff you can do outside of HubSpot. You should be doing it. You shouldn't wait to have access to HubSpot content, Hub enterprise to do this work.

Facts.

All right, so my one thing is this. Authenticity is not aspirational, nor is it manufactured, nor is it a robot. It is you. Give yourself permission to be you. You're already doing it with your prospects. You're already doing it with the people who've already studied being fat. Yes, to you and your company. So clearly, just you is doing something right. So show up. Stop summing like everybody else. Makes me bonkers. Check this out with a happy note. What's her mouthing? Blame.

AI friend that another person. It's not. It's. It's a tool. Use it. Don't be afraid of it. Lean into it. Or else you'll end up watching someone else do your job. Who did lean into? I know you wanted me to bring it up.

So we're ending a harsh truth bomb?

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

Dirty wouldn't tell a joke. Do you vouch him to take this out?

There once was a man.

Well, so. No. What's funny? What's. What's funny? What's funny is what I wanted to do. I wanted to do, like, give me a limerick on brand voice and poop emojis and, like, see what it would actually do.

I'm excited. What do we got?

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Read it, read it, read it, read it, read it, read it.

In a world where emojis reign A brand spoke with a voice quite plain With a poop emoji sent with grace it found its unique space Making customers smile, never feign. I don't even know what we're going to do from here, other than maybe hit that big stop button.