Ep. 21 - Ride of The Valkyries with Melinda Green | Developers:After Dark
This is a YouTube video titled "Ep. 21 - Ride of The Valkyries with Melinda Green | Developers:After Dark" published in May 2025. It features a conversational podcast-style discussion with multiple participants including Melinda Green, Jake Fahlgren, Dennis, and AJ. The conversation centers around Melinda Green's career journey as a senior developer at Fahlgren Mortain, her involvement with HubSpot and the developer community, her experiences at the Inbound conference, and her background in classical singing and opera. The discussion also touches on agency life, web development technologies, and the evolving nature of developer work. The tone is informal and friendly, typical of a developer community podcast episode.
Are you coming to inbound this year?
I am.
Could you please ride your horse there? I want you to ride in majestically.
Seeing some operating started now to ride her to San Francisco.
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to episode 1221 of Developers After Dark. We're old enough to drink, boys.
Oh, my good.
This is good. Good day. But, oh, yeah, it's. We're on episode 21 and we have a very special guest, someone that all of us on the stage here know. I was just saying before we went live that I really don't have to do much in this episode because Dennis, AJ and Melinda know each other so well that I can kind of just sit back and enjoy the show a little bit. So this, this would be very nice. But. But before we get started, let me just jump into a couple of quick things that I wanted to pay a couple of bills with. First of all, anybody who is listening on audio, if you go to devsafterdarkpod.com that is a website where you can find all about us past episodes. And if you want to be a guest on the show, there's also a form on that homepage that you can fill out. And then we'll get in touch with you and we'll set up a date to talk, just like we're doing now and just like we've done for 20 episodes previous. So if you go to devs after darkpod.com, you can check that out. As always, if you're ever trying to figure out what's going on in the dev space here at HubSpot, you're definitely going to want to. There's a lot of videos you can watch, not just us, I don't want to be selfish. But at HubSpot, developers on YouTube, that's the channel for us and everything else development, you will find videos from. We've got Bridge hall, we've got Hannah, we've got. There's tons of people on there that you will learn so much from. Even Dennis is on there too. I mean, that's. I mean, that might be a reason not to go, but I mean, we'll see, we'll see. But definitely check that out. Subscribe, you know, check out all the videos, click a couple likes and learn quite a bit from all of that. I wanted to give a special shout out too to. I just started messing with this yesterday. But Agent AI, you're probably going to want to check this out because we've all been talking about AI and this is basically going to be a marketpl and a Professional network for AI agents and the people who love them. So basically, at the end of the day, you're going to discover, you're going to connect with and you're going to hire AI agents to do useful things. If you go to the site, there's also, like, what it is all about, and it describes pretty much everything about what you're going to do there. Basically, like an AI agent uses artificial intelligence to achieve goals. It gives some, you know, basic definitions, but at the end of the day, it's going to give you quite a few tools. And I'm just on the homepage right now, I'm scrolling a little bit. You've got things like video script generators. You have. One of the ones that I'm very interested in checking out is web design graders. So there's quite a few things there that's going to take the AI element and kind of solve problems for you. So take a look at that and check that out. That was something that I just started messing with myself. Found it to be very, very amazing, the things that you can do. I'm actually trying to make something myself, but yeah, so go check that out. That's something you're really going to want to mess with a little bit. And we're a couple weeks out of the premiere of it. But always, always there's some new videos up there as well. Our friend Ricky here at HubSpot, his video is now up where he describes everything about the dev tools with regards to the Spring Spotlight. So for those of you on audio, if you go to developers.HubSpot.com SS2.5 dev tools, you are going to check out everything that was announced in the Spring Spotlight with regards to dev tools. Things from app cards to updated certifications, you name it, it's all on there. And you can read all about it. And you can watch some really great videos from some really great hubspotters as well.
Aren't you for radio. Aren't you supposed to repeat it, the address at least twice?
I mean, you can do that. I see that on infomercials a lot. I mean, we can try one trick. Try that.
Just.
Just once is good enough.
I was going to say there's.
There's like a. There's a. There's a.
There's a steady pace I'm trying to keep here because I don't want to keep our guest waiting.
Okay, I apologize, you know, as opposed.
To someone who would rudely interrupt when someone's trying to pay the bills. But no, the very last thing I just wanted to mention was, of course, if you go to developers.HubSpot.com changelog, you're going to find everything you're going to need to know about what's going on with the developer Changelog. The that's not just what happens, but what's upcoming as well. Because you don't want to get blindsided by anything that happens throughout. And there is plenty that happens even on a daily basis. I forget what I saw. There was. Who did we talk to? There was somebody who we had talked to. I think it was Nathan because I was going back and I was actually doing show notes. Dennis, you'd be proud of me. And even Nathan said like in the six minutes that we were talking, there was probably like five new things that have happened in HubSpot just in that, like small time frame. So he's not wrong. It does. Things happen at such a quick pace. So you're going to want to go and check that out again for Dennis. That's developers.HubSpot.com changelog.
So brilliant.
With all of that out of the way, the reason why everyone is here is because of our guest today. Melinda, why don't you tell everyone who you are and what you do.
I am Melinda Green. I am a senior developer at Fulgren Mortain in Columbus Oak, Ohio. We are now part of the Shipyard Collective. As of I think last July, Shipyard was another big agency in Columbus and they sort of acquired us, but it's more of a partnership type of thing. We're both big PR full service agencies. I am the HubSpot SME pretty much for the developer, the digital department.
Congratulations is in order too, because I just saw as I was creeping on your LinkedIn page for the last day or two, you are also a 2025 correspondent for Inbound.
Yeah, I've done that since I think maybe 20. I don't remember when they started doing that. It was sometime during COVID maybe when we were virtual. I started doing it and I know I've been in person there, being a correspondent the last couple years, last few years. So yeah, it's. That's a lot of fun. It gives you a focus because Inbound is like you go to Inbound. It's like drinking from the fire hose. It's like so much information coming at you at once. And being a correspondent, that really helps me to kind of focus. I'm going to say, you know, I want to post on these particular topics so I know what to actually listen for rather than getting just completely overwhelmed. By everything you could learn there possibly.
You know, it's just where I get all my information.
All my information comes from you. All the correspondence.
Yeah. And, you know, it's. It's a lot of fun. We. We drop a lot of content at that point. I know there's a lot of people who temporarily unfollow me during the week of weeks, you know, around Inbound, because it's like, okay, we get it. But, you know, there's just. There's so much to share. So much to share.
Interesting, because I usually don't follow you in general. Then I follow you for Inbound, so it's really.
Well, you're. You know, that's. You. That's.
I should mention, too. Tickets are on sale if you want to go purchase those for inbound. Just. Just throw that out there. Question I had for you, though, is, is there a favorite? Now, granted, I met you at the last one, so that's obviously probably your most favorite one, but aside from that, is there a favorite inbound that you've gone to that you can. And AJ's laughing that. That's very nice of you, Jake. Is there a particular one that you've been at that really kind of stood out for you?
You know, I feel like last year did, because last year, there was so much. I felt like there was so much more in the. Well, of course, first Nick. First Nick, of course. But there was so much more available for the developer community. We've been fighting for that for years. And I think the first inbound I went to was 2019, and AJ, I was my first friend at HubSpot. We had the developer day on what is now partner. Yeah, we had the developer day on what is now partner day. I think the day before the conference, and I'm at the offices, I'm kind of meandering around, going like, a bunch of developers, Nobody. I know everything. And. And AJ just like, walks up to me and goes, you look kind of lost or something like that. I'm like, yeah, well, I'm just kind of waiting. I just really don't know anybody here. And he's like, you want something? You want to help out? You want to do something? And I'm like, yes, I would love to work. I would. I would love to work and have a purpose here. So he put me to work doing something or other, like passing out name tags or something like that. And, yeah, so I consider AJ my first friend there because he rescued me when I was bored and unknowing of what I was doing. And okay, Dennis, like, like, we met, like, later that day, so it's okay.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Whatever. Whatever.
You know, you still owe me a beer from that day. Yeah. But, you know, since then we've really been. I know. And you guys, too. Everybody on the HubSpot side, everybody on the developer side. You know, we've always been working to really kind of get our cred in with Inbound and really be part of it. Like, the marketers are part of it because, you know, if we don't do our job, they're not going to be optimized to do their jobs. So we really are part of the backbone of what goes on. And last year, seeing more of that was just spectacular.
But wouldn't you say, Melinda, honestly, like, that 2019 event, I don't know. For me, I think that might have been the best developer event we've had at HubSpot for inbound related content. I really had a special place in my heart that one.
That was one that the community put together, right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
That was a lot of fun putting that together. And just like, just all the ideas and the speakers and everything else, like, that was so much fun.
I would love to be able to do that again. And I know. Was it the year before last that we did one that was like a virtual in the fall?
Yeah.
And that was nice. But having everybody in the same room where the ideas really can get going and just sort of organically that. Yeah, you're right. 20, 2019, when we used to be able to do those, those were really fantastic. I'd love to be able to do that again, please.
You were on the panel talk the following year for the virtual one, because I think that was the CMS panel talk that was. That I led.
Where was.
What was it you, Mark, Ryba, Aaron was on there.
Yeah.
And then.
Oh, gosh. What was that talk about?
It was just a CMS panel. Just talking about everything related to CMS development. You know, like the big questions always, like hub DB or custom objects. And like, so we, like, touched on that and just general stuff.
Yeah, I remember Riba. I don't remember the other two people who were on it now.
I'll have to go back and look.
Yeah. Well, Dharmesh, if you're listening, which you will at some point, I know you will. That's right. The McCormick place here in Chicago has plenty of ample space if you ever want to run an Inbound, you know, get to see me in the city of Chicago, you know, not. It might not be a Bad idea. I'm just throwing it out there.
Wow. Wow. Do you do tours of Chicago while you're out there?
I could. I mean, as long as it's on the north side. That's where I used to work. I wasn't really. That's. That's. I took. Yeah. So I could, like, could show you a lot of nice real estate on the north side of the city. I got real estate in, too. Dennis, thank you. That was great.
Well done. Well done.
Appreciate that. See, it only takes. What was that? What were we on, like, 12 minutes? All right. Okay, we're good. Let's transition just a little bit. Tell us, Melinda, like, the origin story, essentially. Like, what is, like, what sparked your interest in technology or what got you kind of into the, like, going onto the path that got you to where you're at right now?
Oh, gosh, it's. I've always had kind of a love hate relationship with it. You know, I had the little computer stuff as a kid, and I'd learn to program something, then I'd be like, okay, now I'm done with that. I'm through with that. I'm bored with this, and walk away. And then I come back and go, like, I'm gonna do something else. And I was like, no, no, I can't stand. I can't stand this. I want to go outside and stuff. And I'm still kind of like that. I'm. I'm gonna be the first one to run screaming away from my monitor at 5 o', clock, you know, or 6 o' clock or whenever the work is done. I'm like, and no more real love hate relationship. I love doing stuff. And I also am, like, ready to be done. So it was kind of over the years, and then I, you know, just kind of dabbled in it here and there. And then in college, I got a job in the industrial engineering department, which led me to building their first website. In the early days of websites for the. For the lab that I worked for, and that led to actually nothing for a while. I went into a whole lot of other things, did a whole lot of other things, and then came back to web development probably in my early 30s, and kind of never looked back from there. So, yeah, I've been doing this now at Fahlgren for. I think I've been at Fahlgren for 15 years now.
What really.
Came in as a result of an acquisition of a little thing, a little company I was working for. So, you know, Falgren itself, about 12, and the other place about three. I don't know. I don't. I don't know the math, but.
Wow.
Somebody told me the other way. Congratulations. 15 years. So I know.
Isn't it crazy how, like, time flies and you're like, wait, what? There's an anniversary coming up? Like, what?
Right? Somebody said to me the other day, like, congratulations, Melanie. I'm like, what? And they're like, 15 years. And I'm like, about what? And they're like, you've been here 15 years. I'm like, really?
Is that actually normal anymore? I feel like everyone moves to different companies on a yearly basis at this.
Point, you know, and we have some of that, you know, a lot of that turnover in agency life, but we also have some people who have been there 25, 30 years, so we do have some longevity. It's. It's a great company to work for. And. And then we have a lot of people who will go and like, leave and work for a, like a former client for a while and then they'll come back and they're. They come back with a whole new perspective. Having worked in the actual, let's say, B2B sector and now coming back, they've got a completely different perspective, like, on agency, how agencies work with those clients. So we have. We have a good number of, you know, people who, who bounce and then return.
Wow.
And that's a lot of really valuable experience.
Something's going right. Man, I don't know if I could ever go back to my agency. I love the people I worked with, but, man, that's a. That was a. That was. Destroyed me after a while.
Agency life is different. It. It's different. I mean, I talked to a lot of my other HubSpot developer friends and it's just sort of like I. I feel like I'm on another planet entirely.
Well, I mean, that's also true, but, you know, thanks.
Oh, yeah, you know, I just opened myself up for that one. I totally walk right into that.
Now, that agency you work for, though, that you guys aren't just solely focused on HubSpot, right? Because the agency I used to work for was the same way. Like, HubSpot was a part of the business, but it was really like, at the time it was Ektron, which became Episerver, which became Optimized. So we worked on those and like Umbraco and like a bunch of different systems. So, like, HubSpot was a small piece of it. And yeah, I don't know, to me, like, it felt like it gave me more range to Explore all the different things and see how I could apply those other concepts that we were using for other CMSs to HubSpot clients.
So. Yes, exactly. So, you know, not only are we a full service agency, we have pr, government crisis communications, marketing, media relations, advertising, print design. You know, we're not even just a digital agency. We are the full spectrum, like big, big agency. And you know, since this, since this merger slash, acquisition, slash, whatever last year we have, I think we have around 400 employees now, most of them based in Columbus. And we just opened a San Diego office, the shipyard, that's the sort of the corporate parent so to speak. Just opened a pretty big office in San Diego. So we are nationwide. Fahlgren has always been kind of nationwide, but yeah, we're up to about 400 people now, so. And we win a lot of awards for midsize agencies and stuff like that. So. So not only are we just full spectrum everything, we are platform agnostic like you were talking about. AJ, I am the HubSpot specialist. We have a few other people who work on HubSpot. We have somebody on kind of the admin side, we have somebody on the marketing automation side. We have a couple other developers who also know a little bit of HubSpot. I'm the SME as far as the developer side goes and some of the admin and then yeah, we are working In Laravel, Statomic, WordPress, we've got a site in Drupal. I think we've got all kinds of things. We do HTML emails. I'm also one of the specialists in flat out HTML email and that is a different animal altogether. That's what I was specializing in before we got into the HubSpot about six or seven years ago. But in any given week I'm going to be doing HubSpot and then it's like oh sorry, you got to build a statimic site now. And then the next week it's like well we need you to do some WordPress just basic maintenance. And that's like well we need upgrades to this and we need to migrate this. I'm doing some of the DevOps too. So I'm the one who writes most of the content security policies and looks into how we work with you know, non seeing some of the things and, and some, a little bit of the server structures and stuff like that. So it's, it's really hard to dig in. And this is where I was saying that, you know my friends who do HubSpot, I feel like I'm on a Different planet. Don't say it, Dennis. Because they're able. They really get into that depth. And it's like, as soon as I start to dig into something, somebody goes, I need you to build a statimic site. And you're like, drop everything. Change your entire mindset. And then when you come back, it's like, you know, as. As developers, when you come back, it's like, where was I? The house of cards now sort of.
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you're starting to build it up again. They go, WordPress. And you're like, okay, you know, so it's, It's. I have a very broad. Yeah, a very broad outlook and a very broad perspective over things and can see those similarities between platforms and things like that. But as like, depth, depth, depth, depth, depth that some of the, you know, other HubSpot developers get. You know, it's a challenge. It's a challenge because, you know, having breadth and depth is almost impossible.
You have, like, fundamental philosophies that are true across the spectrum. Right. Like, things that you go from one place to the next. I imagine your depth in that area is probably pretty amazing.
Maybe. I mean, you know, tailwind is tailwind and.
Right, right, right, right.
Being kind of the center of a lot of CSS right now.
But when. When you. When you're building a static HTML site, are. Are you thinking about it as an individual unit or are you thinking about it in a larger. How this connects with a CRM or what else is this actually, what's the point?
You know, sometimes. Sometimes we do a lot of sort of basic B2B sites, a lot of what we would call brochure wear, just stuff like that. Now, one thing, though, that's different again, is that our themes, when we build a theme, it's bespoke for that client. They pay a lot of money for a very tight design, you know, that is. That is very tightly branded, you know, very professionally done. So when I, like when I used to pick up the boilerplate theme to start with, the first thing I did was rip out all the theme settings because we're not going to use those. And we don't want someone on the client's team to accidentally use those. And, you know, because they paid a lot of money to, you know, something really polished. And so it's bespoke. We, you know, we don't build themes for the marketplace. We build themes for one client.
Yeah, but I mean, not just. Is it ground up or do you have some, like you said, the boilerplate plate. You still start from that or have you gone something different than that?
I have the last couple. I have started from that solely because they have been for a client that started with that and we're taking that and modifying it. There are a couple clients that we've taken themes off the marketplace and done child themes off of that and kind of heavily modified them. I have not started working with the Elevate theme yet. And all of that, I'm getting, I'm getting to the point where I'm going to start looking into that.
Yeah, yeah, it has, I must say, about the Elevate theme. It has some really nice theme settings, some stuff that they've done with it. Just the thing that just popped up, up top of my head when you said elevate was the border radiuses. The way it's visually displayed now, where it's like, it's not just an input with a number for like the border radius. It's like, do you want rounded, slightly rounded or not? Like, it just makes the selections that much more. Because I mean like intuitive. Yeah. For a developer it's like, yeah, I'll put a pixel amount in there, no problem. But for like the end user who may not be as tech savvy, this. It just, there was just some things in there where I, because I actually took a look at it, I was, I reviewed it like I would. A normal theme and I was just, I was just so impressed with what they did. That. Yeah, it just kind of, it really stood out to me. But yeah, it's the boilerplate. Like it's one of those, it's, it's a beautiful thing because it's one of those things where you can, if you can use it to build for the, for the marketplace or you can use it to kind of like it's already stripped down as it is. Right. That's, you know, by definition. But like you can also take it then too and you can build off of it into something else. It's been one of those things where it's like, when I first got here, I was, you know, I was made aware of the boilerplate and I was just like, okay, that's something that a developer can use if they want to. I've now at this point in my juncture here, it's been more of like a thing where I'm like, if you are a developer, just start with this. Right? Like, there's so much attention paid to that in the GitHub repository by tons and tons of developers, not just within HubSpot but outside of HubSpot, I mean, even I've put in a request or two in there for, you know, like, to do some changes in it. But it's just like one of those things where it's. It's like universal and it's like one of those beautiful things that it's upkeep is not just like, behind, like the curtain. It's not the wizard behind the curtain that just HubSpot, that, like, you know, external developers as well contribute to it. So it's. Yeah, it's just one of those beautiful things that, like, now it becomes like a staple when I suggest it to people.
So. Yeah. Yeah, it is a good foundational starting point. You can kind of go any direction with it. Yeah, I like it for that.
I was going to ask you, Melinda, now there's a lot of experience that you've had within, like, the developer community with respect to, like, different. Like you were saying, there's. There's different, you know, content management systems, but you're also too. You're not just. It's not just tech for you. I'm told you're also classically trained. You're a singer as well. There's like. So there's more that, like, as it's amazing to me, people that have such a skill set, like we talked previously, I believe it was with, you know, David Roma, where we will read things about people and it. I. You'll get tired just reading it. You're like, oh, my God. Like, how does. Like, how can you do. Tell us a little bit about some of the other things? Because, like, to me, I find that amazing. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm a developer. Oh, yeah. I'm also. I'm, you know, classically trained singer. I'm also. I'm like, how that is amazing to me. Like, how do you. How do you keep it all together? It's.
Yeah, there are not enough hours in the day, honestly. So, yeah, my actual educational background is in classical voice and opera. I have a master's degree. I have sung for some of the opera companies around Columbus and sung with some symphonies around Ohio. That was what I was pursuing in school, and that was part of the reason I wound up getting that job in industrial engineering is I was the last in a long line of musicians that a professor hired to do some of his clerical work. I got a job through a friend of mine, and I wound up thinking the clerical work was really boring, and I started doing some software prototypes in, like, HyperCard. I mean, yes, I'M that old. Just shut up. Shut up, Dennis. I'm not old. HyperCard. I said it. I said HyperCard. When I started in college, we were on Mac pluses.
Yes.
You were.
A little black and white screen. Those are what I had to work with. And then we got some like the, you know the, the Mac 2 that was a box about this big. Separate monitors. It was exciting. I actually learned a lot of my ORIG programming there on a Spark Station. A Sun Spark station.
Whoa.
They were in, they were in a room at the end of the hall. I was like what does this do? I don't know. And I just started messing around with it. But yeah, I, I learned a lot on a sunspark station. That's how I got, that's how I got to love command line stuff. So. Command line has never bothered me because I learned on a Spark station there was, there was nothing fun on there. There were no pictures.
Was it like a janitor's closet? I mean, does it. You had like walk down.
It was like. I don't know, it was like a conference room or what? It was just a room with some tables and some Spark stations. And I'm like, I hope they weren't, you know, I, I was like, I hope this doesn't mess anything up. I'm just gonna start, you know.
So the main server just.
Right, right.
So I, I wound up just kind of doing all kinds of things there and sort of copy editing some of the grad students research papers because I was really good in English language and stuff like that writing. So I wound up doing stuff and then I, I wound up building their first website and there were 256 colors to work with. That was an exciting day. I mean 256 colors.
So many opportunities. Was that, was that an int. Was that like a tables? Because I remember when I first started and I was building websites. I was.
Yeah.
Or copying and pasting table cells. It was a. Obviously it was a real estate but it was like literally copying and pasting table cells of listings to try to reorder them.
It was so impossible.
It's impossible. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, all that is what made me really good at doing the HTML email stuff when I was doing that, you know, a few years ago. Because it's still all tables. It's, it's. It probably will always be all tables.
You think so? You really.
I don't. I feel like email is going to be obsolete before they give up their love of tables.
Seriously. I totally agree with you opinion.
But you know, that's how I feel. So, yeah, so I did that. That led to a job at the opera. I've gotten all my jobs in really odd ways, it seems, but I wound up working for the opera and I worked in fundraising, I worked in outreach and education. I worked in like the artist relations, getting all the singers who were coming in. I did their travel arrangements and stuff like that. So I did all kinds of different stuff there. Then from there I went to the Columbus foundation, which is a grant make, a big grant making institution. I worked there in the grant making department for a while and doing a lot of sort of paperwork and then reviewing some, reviewing a handful of grants. And then from there I decided I was going to try to make another go of singing. And the market just wasn't there for it at the time. So I fell back on, I fell back on the computer stuff. It was like, I can probably get back into this somehow, right? And I got a job at a little tiny agency that was owned by a friend of my husband at the time. And he was like, sure, sure, I need somebody. Come on in. And another weird way, I just kind of like said, can I have a job? And he's like, okay. So I wound up there. And that's the agency that then was acquired by Falkland mortine probably almost 15 years ago. And here I am. So, yeah, it's been, it's been a real weird, wild ride. I still sing sometimes. Not as much, obviously. I still sing. I write for a local magazine, 614 Magazine. I do like feature stories. I have done concert reviews for the Columbus Dispatch back when there was like a newspaper. I mean it's, it's still there, but it was a newspaper, a paper newspaper at the time. Yeah, I've done all kinds of things. I, I also have a degree in music education, so I've done a lot of teaching. I've taught voice lessons. I've taught horseback riding lessons. I, you know.
Have you taught lessons on a horse, music lessons while riding a horse?
Because I think I have not done it, but I've been asked to.
Oh, wow, that's so crazy. You mentioned, you mentioned that when you tried to go back into singing. I think I read somewhere like, it, it's a pretty comp. Like it's super competitive as far as, like. And I, you know, being someone that doesn't have a lot of experience in it, honestly, like, it wouldn't be something that I would have thought like, like really hyper competitive, you know, in, in.
That scene, it, it is because you Know the way a lot of let's say, let's say opera works, you are hired for a performance, usually a production, and that production lasts about three, four weeks. So you come in, you, you already know your music. You better already know your music when you walk in the door, you come in, you do three weeks of rehearsals, a week of performances, something like that, like say, and then you go on to the next job in another city, another different production, a different show, different language, possibly different staff. You know, you go in there and you do it all over again, but in a completely different environment. And then you do it all over again in a completely different environment. And then if you have like a symphony gig, you go in there for one day of rehearsals and you have two days of performances and then you fly out. So it is really. When you are a professional musician, kind of on a regional or national level, you are constantly auditioning for things. Unless you're like the Pavarotti level, you're auditioning for things, you're going in and showing them that you can do this role in this kind of environment or a modern version of this, or a very traditional version of this, and that you're going to look the part and act apart. And it is essentially constant job interviews because an audition is basically a job interview and you're, you're doing this all the time. You are always going places for interviews and always kind of hustling to get the next job. I mean, it's hard enough to get the next job when you're a developer, but when you, your job is a month long, you're gonna have to keep, I mean, it's a constant cycle of basically job interviews where you sing.
I have a question. Do you have to physically be there these days or can you, you know, do it remotely?
You can. A lot of it is going remote now and, but you gotta think that, you know, the quality is not 100% recording. You don't see, you know, you can do video, but you know, video, you can do different takes. How is somebody spontane? Instantaneous.
Yeah, right.
Be crazy if it was just a bunch of people sending SoundCloud files to each other.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, that I haven't done. I haven't done a whole lot. You know, I do more just sort of stay at home because I can't travel now. Yeah, I got a full time job, so I'm kind of out of that loop. But yeah, I mean, it, it does help. It. You know, there's, there's good and bad.
To virtual plus, flying's overrated, too. Just throwing that out there.
Of course.
I once used a question for you once you started kind of going more towards the developer mode, right? And kind of saying, this is going to be like the path, right? This is the direction. Were there things once you started that down that path that kind of surprised you at first? Were there any type of things that you ran into where you're like, oh, I wasn't really expecting.
I learned real quick that what you knew eight or nine years ago is gone. It was like a bucket of cold water to the face. I went. And I was like, yeah, you know.
