Ep. 24 - Community Architecture with Jennifer Nixon | Developers:After Dark

Two foot tall, but with like a four foot mohawk. It's very weird to print that. See, it gets me pumped. And not only that, but it did take me quite a while to go through that website to find like the right music to get to buy.

I put it back in. I mean, like, it just has to.

I know, I know, I was just teasing, but. Hello and welcome to another episode of Developers After Dark. This is a very, very long awaited episode for myself personally because I've been wanting to talk to our guest and my poor choices led me to illness and we weren't able to do it the first time. But we have made amends and we are fixing the problem. I have fixed the problem and we are here. But before we get into all of that, I just want to remind you that the only website you're ever going to need is going to be developers or devs@darkpod.com almost messed that up. That is devs after darkpod.com that's where you're going to be able to see pretty much a catalog of all of our stuff. A little bit of an introduction into what the show is about and why we did it, why we set it all up. So if you go there, you'll be able to see pretty much everything. But what we really want you to do is you're probably most likely watching this on YouTube. So what I want you to do is for everybody, I want you to like this video and more importantly, single click like so you can double click into our hearts. And then also I want you to follow and I want you to subscribe to the HubSpot Developers YouTube channel. At HubSpot Developers, you're not just going to find episodes of us, which I mean is great enough as it is, but you're also going to find a lot of other relevant and very, very important information. You're gonna. There's an interview that just dropped. I want to say it's about two days ago where Brie hall, another guest on our show and a really great podcaster in our own right, interviewed Hannah about Post Postman. And I think they talked about Postcon a little bit too in there as well. Really good episode. You should go check that out. And on top of that too, there's also like a lot of informational stuff. There's, you'll see just a ton, a ton of information on there. You don't want to miss it like those videos as well. So check that out. That's at HubSpot developers. That's our YouTube channel. Subscribe because you'll, it's. You'll get alerted for just about. And it covers everything too. I think that's the best part about it.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I believe science actually has proven that you are smarter when you subscribe to that channel. I didn't believe this. I had to check it. We had several studies done and each of them said you're much smarter if you subscribe.

Also, liking our videos brings you good fortune.

Yes, yes.

I think I just want to throw that out. I mean, I'm sure there'll be a legal note later somewhere in my slack, but I've heard that, I've heard that so. Well. Yeah, but if you wanted to be in the know as far as like changes in the developer world, you're also going to want to check out our change log and that's@developers.HubSpot.com changelog One more time for Dennis. Developers HubSpot.com changelog but you're going to want to go there because you're going to get a lot of information on a lot of the developer information that drops a lot of the changes that are happening. So you want to go there. You can subscribe to that as well. So you'll get alerts and you'll get notified. So make sure you check that out as well. There's a lot of stuff in the HubSpot community that you can be a part of and that you can sign up for. And where the information kind of just flows, they don't. There's always that saying, right? That's like even working at HubSpot at the very beginning is like drinking from a fire hose. But getting like plugged into HubSpot is also like drinking from a fire hose as well because we have so much information to give you and it just doesn't stop because there's always innovation, there's always new things, new tools and there's always something happening. So get yourself plugged in in every humanly way possible and you're never going to feel left out. So do that as well. And last but not least is the Academy. Academy.HubSpot.com and we might be talking about this throughout the show as well. By that is academy.HubSpot.com if you want to learn anything. I had a promo once that I just made up on the fly about, Remember that Dennis? Where I was like, you're bad at coding, but do you want to fix it? They're making fun of you at the water cooler. Do you want to know why I want to clip that one of these days and just send it to the people in the Academy and just, like, see what they say, just to see. But, you know, all joking aside, though, it's definitely a place you want to go to because there are so many courses on there. And me and AJ were talking that one time with one of our friends, and I know I brought this up in a couple of episodes, but he was like, yeah, you know, I'll do that. But I don't. You know, I'm not. I'm not paying for that right now. And I'm like, paying for what? I'm like, you don't. You're not paying for. And he did. He had no idea that it was actually something that HubSpot provided. Right. So it's. It's one of those things where even now, even with all of the great information that's been put out, even thus far, some people still don't know that it's just a resource you can go to. And not only that, like, some of the certifications you can get, they can go onto your. When you're in the marketplace, right? When you have some of these certifications, they'll actually show up under your provider name and the accreditations that you get. So, like, you know, CMS for developers and things like that, those show up as a marketplace provider in your listings. So there's an added bonus there too, as well that I don't think a lot of people even know about. But go to academy.HubSpot.com check out everything I've done. A bunch of them. We had a week not too long ago where, you know, we were donating, like when people got the certifications. I mean, anything from SEO to CMS development, all that, you know, inbound marketing, there's just everything there. There you go. There you go. And without further ado, I will let our guest Jennifer introduce herself and tell everyone who she is and what she does.

Hey, everyone. Thanks, Nick. I'm Jennifer Nixon and I am the developer community manager here at HubSpot, part of the developer relations team. With these workable people here and a lot of the folks that have been on the show previously, I work most closely with S.J. morris with the developer or the ecosystem mentorship program. And I'm a former community champion, Dennis and some of the others, so kind of grew up in this ecosystem. I've been. I've worked for a theme provider, my optimized listings with my certifications, actually. And yeah, I've worked with, as a consultant for agency. I'VE been, you know, a customer and now I'm a HubSpot now.

Now, speaking of that, you know, it's pulling on that thread just a little bit. A lot of people who have been in the community have become hubspotters, like A.J. like, it's just. It's one of those things that it. It really does draw in some of the best people. It really does.

Or the worst. Well, the two.

Well, yeah, I didn't come from that, so the worst, didn't I? Yeah, that wasn't me. I came from something different, so I wasn't the worst. Came from something different. But you guys are the best and you definitely came from the community.

Yeah. Is. It's John, right? John, aj, Dennis thing. Are there others, anybody else?

There have been there. There have been a. A slew of people coming and out as champions. I don't know, we should have like, some sort of site, like, page that has, like, champions to hubspotters meet up.

Yeah, we should do our own meetups now, anyway. Yeah, I think I do know a few others. They're just not on Deborah, which I guess is kind of like my world now here.

So now since you've gotten here, it has been. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it might be fair to say that it's been quite the whirlwind. You have been involved in just a plethora of things going on. Can you talk a little bit about some of the things that have happened, you know, just in your. And, you know, as you've gotten here, that's some of the things that you've been able to experience.

Yeah, I mean, I. I traveled twice in my first month, so I had some on site in Cambridge and then we had the meetup in la. So as part of postcon, we had a tech meetup to kind of connect the. The LA tech scene with HubSpot and people attending Postcon. And that was just. I don't know, Dennis. I thought that was a really fun, engaging way. It was cool because we had round tables and actually, like, had laptops out and we were answering questions and engaging with people who were struggling with, you know, solving problems in HubSpot or how do I, you know, do something better? So it was really interesting and there were a lot of really cool use cases and just different ways people are using HubSpot. And then postcon, of course, Hannah, the amazing Hannah, we were like, I don't know, I was just kind of blown away seeing what she's been able to achieve and like, Sharing her story about Postcon and Devrel and you know, as somebody who struggled to learn API, I really, really wish I had known Hannah earlier or about Postman. So if you are trying to learn API, I'm going to do a plug now because you really need to get on Postman. It's like made it so much easier but that's kind of like the, the early goings. I fully taken over the mentoring program that I mentioned. So kind of running that day to day, getting our mentors more involved, connecting with mentees. We've got 90 ish people in the program. Really incredible group of people. So smart, so bright.

Can you, can you kind of go through what is, what is this program?

Just. Yeah, yeah. Well, I wasn't sure if we'd get to that because you know, these last three months have been long. But the, it is the ecosystem mentorship program. Last year it was the developer mentorship program and I was one of the mentors in the program. This time around we have I think about 65 pairs, so there's 65 mentors but some of them have more than one mentee. And it's across the ecosystem because we're kind of bringing in people who might be more technical or building with AI or you know, they may not be your traditional developer. When you think of somebody who's a programmer or a coder, they could be somebody creating custom coded workflow actions or maybe they just manage an integration but they're not doing like the day to day API, you know, technical coding piece. So it's kind of a really broad mix of folks and we brought them together, they're paired up, they kind of coordinate with each other to meet and discuss things. We have a slack space where we connect as a group and share, you know, how things are going and yeah, just, it's, I don't know, I think it's one of the most incredible programs available because a lot of people that are developers or people in this ecosystem are working in smaller teams and smaller companies. Whereas like HubSpot, we've got like 9,000 employees. And it's a very, you're, you're constantly learning from other people. But if you're working with two to three people all the time, you're maybe not going to get that same amount of exposure or maybe you don't get the same amount of support so you can learn from somebody else's experience. Whether that's, you know, where to look for, you know, how to understand the documentation or where to find solutions to your problems. But it's also career planning, goal setting, getting alignment. Like, how do I want to grow? We have a lot of people who work for customers that want to go out on their own and then be, you know, freelancers, or eventually we're going to have funder agency. You know, there's so many different goals and objectives, and we kind of match you up so that you can grow and develop further.

Love it.

I really love it. Yeah, I love that. I think that's brilliant too, because, like, the kind of the widening of the pool, like the definition of a developer is changing, you know, even as we speak. So I think that's really fantastic. And it's grown too, since last year to this year. Like the demand. Right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even the demand for not just the people who want to join the program, but also be mentors as well has grown significantly. I mean, people are talking about this constantly now. So I think that's also great too, because the help, I think is the biggest thing, because I remember there were times where I think. I can't remember. Dennis. We were talking what episode we were talking about this in. But we kind of wished, probably with sj, but we kind of wished that something like this existed, you know, when we were first starting out as well, because the. The path felt so. Actually it didn't even feel like anything because we didn't know whether. Where the path was, I guess better way to explain it. And having a program like this would have been instrumental and like, it could have saved like a good amount of time of like, call it soul searching or however you want to describe it, but like, trying to find, like how to get on that. On that path even, or even find where it is. This would have been something that would have been huge.

Oh, my God. Yes, I totally agree.

Yeah, just having a sounding board, somebody that like, hey, this is what's going on, and having somebody to share those experiences. And, you know, the. The biggest thing about being a mentor is listening. And a lot of people think that you have to know something really, really specific. So, yes, the program has grown. I think we have close to, or maybe over 200 mentees apply. But with matching and getting every paired up, you know, we kind of settled around trying to have about 100 participants total in the program. And, you know, life happens. So a few people have, you know, dropped or things have come up, but I feel like it's a. In a really good place. And one of the things that I'm really looking forward to is growing it and Scaling it and helping mentees because we have so many amazing mentees in the program, helping them to become mentors. The last bit of my time here to kind of circle back to that, I've been building a course for HubSpot Academy. So full circle moment for me too. My, like, first week using HubSpot, I got my first certification. So nine years in the making. I coming up at Inbound, I'll be launching the Effective mentoring in the HubSpot ecosystem course.

Love it. Amazing.

That's awesome.

I've been busy building out that content, recording it, creating resources and just showing you like what it takes, you know, and it doesn't take a lot. I think it's going to be like 45 minutes total. Like, it's not overwhelming. It's going to help you. Just like that imposter syndrome we all talk about. Like, am I really good enough? Can I really do it? Do I really know what I'm doing? And I think what a lot of people don't understand is being a mentor also helps you grow and it helps you recognize like, oh, like I can be a leader, I can guide somebody. I, you know, I can grow myself while I'm helping somebody else and just kind of connecting those dots of it. It doesn't matter if you're the best developer in the whole wide world. It doesn't matter if you're a cto. That's not what it takes to be a mentor. It just takes somebody who has walked a path.

Indeed.

And none of our paths are the same.

But what I'm hearing is that you have to listen and not talk a lot. So if that's the case, I guess I'm out. It's a good thing. Good thing I didn't sign up. Yeah.

Have three, four, three official Ventis and like two or three others. And I tell them all the time. I was like, I'm not a really good example of a good mentor. Like, I'm trying. I'm learning from my own course because I, I do. Like, it's tough when you have so much to share. You know, I think I'm maybe a little long winded in my answers, but they still learn and appreciate it.

So for sure, as you said, I really, I really think being a mentor is like a learning experience in and of itself. I really think that's a huge yes. You are going to be distilling information to other people, but you yourself will be growing. This is like one of those, you know, level up opportunities that you can take. I think it's crucial for development.

Huge opportunity. And I think, you know, not just for this program. The reason that I wanted the Hookspot Academy course is we have a lot of partners. We have app builders, we have people in this ecosystem that have the opportunity to spin up their own mentoring programs. I mean, think of some of our elite partners. Think of even, you know, Diamond Platinum. They have hundreds of employees. And how can we effectively mentor within ourselves and within this ecosystem? I think there's just a much bigger opportunity that's being left on the table and professional development that comes from having somebody internally that maybe has your back, that's there for you and it's kind of outside of your normal manager, your normal day to day. I think there's just a lot of opportunity for growth for, for so many and for sure is the technical and that there's a whole lesson on that, you know, how to mentor in a technical setting. Because I think that's the nuance with being in SaaS and technology and HubSpot is your, your mentees are going to have questions that maybe are outside of your realm of experience. How do you handle that? How do you guide them? You can do it.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think about the, I used to, you know, the companies that have hundreds of people working for them. I'm thinking of those that don't have the money for many people and they have to hire an intern, for example, who really needs that leadership. You know, the, the, the mentor and I, I feel like that's a huge win for them.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I guess what I mean that to. To clarify the distinction is there are companies within this ecosystem large enough to create their own mentoring programs, not just this one. And so that was kind of the potential I saw with having it be a more broadly shared course than just specific to this program.

Love it.

It's awesome. Yeah, you're like, you're like. You're pretty much planting the seeds for that type of thing in other places as well, where it's like, yeah, the exponential growth there is undeniable. So I think, I really do think that's fantastic. I kind of wanted to ask you too, like, along the lines of all of this. So, you know, the travel, like from when you first started HubSpot, so the whirlwind of everything. You're doing an academy course, but this isn't the first time though, you've done any type of like in the limelight type of work. Right. Last year at Inbound, you were. Can you tell us about that? I mean, you were on a panel. There was a lot going on there too, as well. Even before you started all of this.

Yes. So last year, a few of the champions got together and they wanted to do a panel session to talk about the community getting more engaged, how you can make the most of your experience in this ecosystem. And they reached out to me and said, hey, you're kind of in the top. You know, we'd love to have you. And so Dan Moyle, Josh Curcio, Phil Balander, I mean, he's like the original. Like, before Carsten, there was Phil. So you guys don't know Phil. I mean, he's a phenomenal person and web dev, like, just amazing human. And they got together and luckily let me join them. And Kyle Jepson moderated and was phenomenal. We had a great time, chatted about, you know, getting involved in the community and just how you can, you know, help other people and it helps you. And I think that's the thing that there are so many people that say, well, I don't really have time. Like, you know, I was talking to a developer yesterday about the developer slack versus the community forums, and they're like, yeah, but the slack, I can just like, DM or I can just quickly check and, you know, and I was like, in that same five minutes, you can post a question or answer a question in the community. It's just the time between, you know, when you post it and when you get an answer or when you, you know, respond. But your time commitment hasn't changed. And I think that's one of the biggest, like, misconceptions people have about helping others is that it's taking away time from them when really you're gaining so, so much from it.

I couldn't agree more. Yeah, no, absolutely. With, with, with these things, I, I was, I was curious because I wanted to ask you, was this something because you. There's. I don't know. I don't want to. I don't want to, like, boil it down to there's like two types of people, but in my mind, like, it's close, but there's, you know, there's people that are kind of comfortable doing these type of, like, with regards to, like the, the speaking, like the panel sessions or. I remember you mentioned too, there was a lightning talk that you did as well. Yeah. With those things, it was that something that you kind of always were comfortable doing or was that something you kind of pushed yourself to do? Because, like, the reason I asked that is because me personally, like, I don't I never liked doing. Like, I was never. I'm not a people. I don't.

I don't.

I don't identify myself as a people person. Right. Which is weird. But. But, like, doing. You know, when AJ Talked to me and Dennis into the inbound talk and some of the other stuff, it was, like, way outside of my comfort zone and kind of had to force myself to do it. Did you have a similar experience or was there. Because there are some people that. Where they're just like, no, I love this. I can do this all day. I'm not nervous about this. No imposter syndrome. Everything's great. I worry about those people because I get nervous. But, like, you know.

Yeah, definitely depends. So the mains, like, the stage and doing the panel session, I wasn't nervous at all. I have no idea. Like, I thought I would be really worried about it or. But I think it comes down to, like, if you are talking about something that really matters to you and you have the opportunity to, like, share that story or that message or whatever it is, like, that kind of takes a lot of that pressure off. So that one came really naturally. The lightning talks, though, with Anton and Justin and Carter, I was like. I was just up there shaking. Like, my hands were. Were kind of shaking, and I. I felt like I did more prep for that. Like, I put my slides together. I did more prep for that than I did the panel session. And I can't. I can't even bring myself to watch it. I think it's on the YouTube, but I can't watch it.

Plus two, I'm sure it depends on, too, like, the environment, the other people that you're talking with, because I know Dennis was super nervous because he was in the presence of me speaking, I'm sure, like, you know, you.

Right, like, the. You guys were talking to people from the community that really like your thoughts, your opinions. You're sharing something with them.

A lot of them, they appreciated Dennis's thoughts. I'm. I don't know about my. The jury's probably still out on that.

They did.

No, they didn't. They didn't.

I'm sure they did. I missed it. I don't know where I was. I. I missed a lot last year.

It was memorable. It was memorable. Some people might say it's gonna go down in. In, you know, the. The books as possibly the best inbound presentation, but, you know, whatever could be.

One of the highest rated. I. I mean, in my opinion, it probably was. Yeah. I met. You know, but it Was. It was pretty decent. It was pretty. Pretty decent. And. And that's why I wanted to ask you that question, because it always. I always feel like there are some people who, like, it comes naturally and don't be wrong. Like, the people we talk to, like, they're great. Like everybody does, even if they don't think they can, like, do it or they don't think that. Like, there's been people that have even come on here where they're like, I don't think I could do, like, a podcast thing. And like, I think it was like John on a couple other people where they were, like, they were fantastic. Like, the stories they told, the way they told them. I don't even think they realized how good they were at just. Just even speaking about something when it was just their own personal experience. Right. But, yeah, I always admire those people who it, like, seemed. It came real naturally, too. Right. And then, I'll be honest, just kind of what, like, we, you know, not that I was creeping, but was watching some of the stuff, like, especially, like, some of the older stuff. And there are just some people that you, like, watch that are just naturally, you know, whether it's the Kyle, you know, the Jepsons, or, like, even Brie. Even. Even aren't in, you know, and Devil, like, just. It's just. It seems very fluid. And I'm envious of that. I really am, because it's like, it's those type of things, and it makes it easier to, like, digest what people are talking about as well. And, Brooke, in the academy courses, and I'm sure the academy course that you're doing is going to be. It's going to be the same thing, because even just talking with you now, even though we haven't had, like, much time to talk throughout, you know, since you started, it just. You can get that feeling from people that they're just that type of person where it's like. It almost seems like it comes natural, you know, so that's fantastic.

But I, you know, I think for me, it takes a lot of work, and I think it's great when it does come naturally to people. Jay Schwedelson does the inbound mainstage every year. I don't care if you're not into marketing or emails. Like, they'll watch him if you. If you want to get better at presenting or talking, because he's just a real human being and he kind of, like, owns that presence. And I think that's who you, like, remind me of inside and why I Love watching the Developers After Dark podcast because you are, you're Nick, like unfiltered. And this is who I am and I'm not trying to be somebody else. And I think that's what makes somebody a good speaker. When somebody is trying so hard and when they're putting on or they aren't comfortable with it and you can feel that, that's when it comes across, you know, like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. And you know, but the difference is like, you can put in work. For me, it's, you know, practicing taking like 50 outtakes, you know, like the Academy course wasn't easy. I had to, I think I spent three hours on the intro, couldn't get it. I was like, I'm just gonna breeze through and I just like recorded one after the other of the next couple lessons and. And then I went back to the intro and I got it on the next one. It's just like a mindset, right? And like when you put that pressure on yourself that like, this one's gotta be perfect, it's first, or I have to, you know, appear a certain way or I need to have the right smile or the right tone or pacing, when you aren't thinking about just delivering the message and what I'm trying to say, then it gets so much harder.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

It reminds me of like, you know that social media where you watch people's lives, they're so perfect and beautiful and when you're trying to record something, it's like, my God, I've done this like 450 different times. I can't get it right. How did that person record that loom or whatever it might be so well. And then you ask them, it's like, oh my God, I. I spent five hours doing that. It wasn't a one shot deal. Yeah, get that out of your head already. Like there's gonna be many snakes.

Yeah, it's not. But also like, you know, even when we attempted the podcast the last time, you know, being live, that, that had a different type of feeling and pressure.

And for sure, for sure.

For anybody who caught that, I will go on record and say, like, it is really difficult to know. Like, hey, have I said what I needed to say? Did I answer the question? You know, am I? Like, there's all these things going in your mind and I think, Nick, you and I both have those minds that get like 10 steps ahead. And I love when you're like, oh, I want to pull a thread on this because you you see something in what the people are saying, so fan moment here.

Sorry, I gotta, I gotta change the hue on my light because it looks like I'm blushing a little bit. So just give me a second. But, but no, I appreciate that. And it's the, I think, I think the thing that kind of gets, especially with the live part, it does get. I like doing that, but I think like, especially in a setting too where it's not more, not more professional, as if it wasn't professional before. But like, it just, it's hard because like I, we. I even noticed with some people too, just with talking with them when I asked them if they wanted to like come on and just like tell their story. I think the fact that it was live scared people. It did and I know it did. They. Some people specifically said that that was the case. So I, I do understand that. And that was kind of like why we kind of started to go back to the. Well, why don't we just record it first and then, then whoever the guest is can feel a little bit more comfortable. Like they're not on the spot or they're not. Because like, for me, just talking, regardless if I'm saying anything relevant, like it just comes sort of natural to me, even though I'm not a people person. But like, you know, at the end of the day we, we feel, we felt like that's not everybody's game, especially when we want them to be able to tell their story or like even now, like specifically talk about a particular thing. Like, you know, for your example. And even with sj, it was like we really wanted to, if we didn't say the word community or at least mention something about the community in the episode and it was just me, blah, blah, blah, like it would have been a complete failure, right? So there was, there were these things that we wanted to make sure that we kind of hit and like it's hard to do that live. Especially when you're nervous and you're trying to make sure you get everything out and then you ramble on. Like I did like at the early episodes where it was like I was doing the, like the made up, like on the fly. And then plus two, I was like, as I get like not nervous, but as I talk more, I start to say more things that I probably shouldn't and just start like. So when I was like making up all this stuff, like commercials on the fly and stuff, I was like, somebody's going to see this and be like, what? Stop him now. Like, cut it now. So like, yeah, it's one of those things where the live made it very, very. The waters were. The waters were choppy, let's put it that way. It was like, I was always worried about, like, somebody coming down, like, anybody, like, you know, our bosses or our boss's bosses, and being like, what are you letting these people do? Like, it's like. So, yeah, it. There's a certain benefits alive, but then at the same time, too, there's also some pretty good benefits to recording it and then making sure. And plus, Dennis gets to, like, make everything pretty and supposedly take out my. When I say stuff wrong, because I. I did. What was that chat? Gtp. I kept calling it when I was talking to Daniel. Daniel about the connector, and I was like. After I watched it, I was like, this did not just happen. I literally did. I called it GTP the entire time. And it was just. Yeah.

Unfortunately, Nick, you've run out of credits, so I will be unable to make any more edits for you.

All the credits are on my mistakes.

That's basically all it is the entire time.

But let me ask you this, though, because we. We are talking about community, and then more importantly, like, the mentorship stuff as well. Is there advice that you've been given from a mentor? It. It could be in the industry or just about life that, like, has really stuck with you.

Yes. So I. I'm very lucky to have had mentors. I had a really an informal professor mentor relationship in college where he really took me under his wing, and I've had a mentor kind of in each of the. The key roles early in my career. And I think that's why I feel so strongly about mentorship. I also never felt like there was anybody that looked like me or was like me that was available to be a mentor. And I think that that's a huge part of it is, like, no, early on. So the mentor, right? I was in this really difficult situation, and I, you know, black and white, you know, right and wrong. This is the right thing to do. That's wrong. You know, what do I do? And it came down to, like, well, you've worked hard, right? You've. You've built your career, your, you know, your reputation. You are a good student. You. You're just getting started. Like, what do you want to be known for? And it wasn't. It taught me to see the gray in life that not everything is, like, always. Like, there's not always one right way or there. You know, there can be different ways to handle a situation. And so how do you want. Like, it made me step back and say, like, okay, based on how I act, what are people going to take away about me? And how is that going to change how people see me and how my story moves forward from here? And I think that, like, I am not one that's always had a grand plan. Like, my career has transitioned a lot. I've been through a lot of change, but one of the things that just stuck with me was, how is this going to change how people see me, and how is that going to impact how I see myself? And I think that's something we often overlook is, like, how is it going to make you feel? And what's the thing that you need to get past this or move through this challenge or difficulty that you've encountered? But I know, I know you have something to say on that. But before. Because I would not be a good community manager if I didn't say this. And we're talking about mentoring, we're talking about community, we're talking about the podcast. Anybody who is in the developer community that is watching this, you can be here, too. And I think that the other piece, I had somebody say, why not you? And instead of, like, why me? Like, why not me? And that was my next best mentor thing was, like, why not? Not. Why should. You know, but why is it not Jennifer? So for anybody out there who's like, you know, oh, I don't know, I don't think I could do that. It's not live anymore. So you can. And you can be here and you can tell your story and you can help others learn and grow, too. So those are my two.

Dennis, can you clip that, please, just so we can get. That's the commercial. No, but I really. I love the. What do you want to be known for? Because there's. I, I just, I. There's. That. That's. Honestly, that's one of my favorite questions to ask people because there's such a. There's. And they're all fantastic, but there's such a. A variance. Right? And I. I don't think we'll ever get anybody that gives the same answer twice. But I like that one in particular because, I mean, there's plenty of opportunities in the world or in life where you could just kind of skate by. Where you can just kind of. Like, I could take the easy way to do this, or I can do. But like, stopping and asking yourself that question every once in a while, you know, in certain situations really can help shape the person you want to be. And I think that's, for me, like, I don't think I do that enough. That's why I really liked that answer that you gave, because it was like. It was one of those ones where I'm like, I should start asking myself that more. Right? It was kind of like, when we talked with Caitlin, it wasn't really a mentorship thing, but it was more like a. A thing that she said where it was like, you know, when she talked with people on Slack, or she would ask how they're doing, and. And, like, because you could fall into that trap of being impersonal, being like, I got a question for you. What's this, this and this? Instead of saying, hey, how's it going? You know, how was your week? Or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, those type of things. This is one of those things where I feel like people need to ask themselves this question more often, right? As they're going through life, as they're going through things, and as they're making, like, important decisions. So I really. I just want to say I really. I really did love that answer, because it really does. Any answer like that, that resonates and then makes you stop and think, like, yeah, should I. I should be taking that advice. It's like, it's good. It's just really good.

So.

Well, I. I will. You know, I can't take credit for it, but I learned a lot from it. I think the other thing for me is, like, I'm a very passionate person. I was really passionate about architecture, and that's, you know, why I studied it. I'm really passionate about sustainability and community and helping people. So my. Why is helping people? That's the thing that drives me. And. But I. And that's what I want to be known for, is being helpful. And that's my number one, that Northstar thing that I look to. But I think a lot of people. I was part of a session yesterday as part of HubSpot's like, bring your family to work week. We had mentoring sessions for underrepresented college students. And, you know, a lot of them were like, well, I'm studying computer science, but I don't know if I really like it or. I have a degree in psychology, but I don't know if that's, for me, like, how do I get into tech? And I think the biggest thing is when you're a kid, people out point blank ask you, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I remember in kindergarten, my daughter's answer was artist. But the next kid, his was pirate. And I was just like, yes, let's be pirates. Like, right, let's stop trying to figure that out. And you know, what she's wanted to be has changed so much. But I've never been able to answer that question. I was just made up the easy thing. And so instead of asking what do I want to be or what is my career, just what do I want to be known for? Like, how am I going to leave my little impact? Even if it's not impacting the whole. Maybe it's just within this little ecosystem, but that's enough, you know.

I'm going to talk more about the why not me part of it because I feel like when you are an advocate, as you are, you know, you want to help as many people as you possibly can, you so often put everyone above you and thus don't really do that self advocacy. And you, I think it's really strong. Why not me? Not as like, what have I done wrong to not be me? But like, why not me? Because I also deserve this. I think that is, I think it's a very, very strong point. And to be a good advocate, you also have to be a good self advocate. And that, that's sometimes easily overlooked because I feel like it's easier, at least for me. And I feel like for you as well, Jennifer, not you, Nick, but to, to think of other people ahead of yourselves, you know, and, and you have to take care of yourself, you know.

Yes, well, and you're the one that forced me to say I'm a developer and I could never get the words out right. I know we've had this conversation so many times, but it's, it's like you, you don't always think of yourself first or, you know, you, you're. And it's not like in a, in a way that's intentional. It's not like I'm like, oh, I know, like I'm fine, I don't need to worry about me or whatever, but it's, it's just the things that drive you, that motivate you, that challenge you are the things that are helping other people. And indeed this role is where that came. Like, my mission, before I even knew this opportunity was available at HubSpot, was empowering developers, like through the experience I had leaving my last company and looking for a new role, just the amount of people that reached out, that connected with me, that wanted to help me to be successful. I asked the same question, well, why not that person? And why like this person's been open to work, and they're equally, if not more, qualified than I am. So how can I, like, connect you together? And I think that finding that. How do you empower other people, it does help you see those things in yourself. It's just not the things you talk about. Like, you know, it's not like I don't have my own podcast.

I can't just be like, hey, guys.

I do cool things.

Yeah. I feel like we've been taught that selfish is a bad word. And. And to an extent, sure it is. But, like, it's also an important thing to be. To an extent. Right? Like, you need to take care of self. It's.

It's.

You need to be a little bit selfish.

Plus two, if you're not going to advocate for yourself, who else is? Right? You can't rely on other people to. I mean, you can't just sit back and hope that other people will advocate for you. And, like, you're. The things that you do, like, the accomplishments that you have. Like, that's why I think, like, being a bit of a narcissist kind of is not necessarily a bad thing. Not that I. Not that I would know, but I'm just saying, like, I'm not trying to.

Justify you at all here, Nick. There wasn't a justification for you by. By any means.

Oddly, that's how I saw it. That's weird. I don't know why that was. But. But.

But.

No, it's. It. It. No, it is. I mean, you. You're gonna have to. There are times where you're gonna have to fight to show that you know what you're doing and that you've done good things and, you know, screaming from the mountaintop. So that's. Yeah, but it's a. Yeah, it's a. It's. It's a weird balance. Like, because, like you were saying, Dennis, there's. You're. You don't want to be mistaken for, like, you want to be like. Let's put this. So you want to be like Jennifer and Dennis, where you advocate for yourselves, but you don't want to be like me, where it's like, is this guy talking about himself again? Like, so you want to try to strike a balance in between the two, for sure.

So, yeah, that's. That's a clip I'm going to be taking, for sure.

No, I think that's, in a way, like, I think because I advocated for so many other people, like, Dennis advocated for me, you know, he was like, hey, there might be an opportunity at hoops. Right. Like, he was probably the first person looking out for me and helped me see that for myself. But like, it's not, I don't think it's a, a battle between selfish and selfless. You can be giving and you can get a lot.

See? Yes, I totally agree with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you've got it. I think you've got it. But this is something that a lot of people don't have. You know, I think we just need to drive this into people's souls. That it's okay to be a little bit selfish, you know? It's okay.

Yeah, it is, it is.

Let me, let me change the subject just a little bit because before we run out of time, I do want to get to know you a little bit better. I wanted to ask you a question, like, how did you first get into, let's say, just tech in general? Was, was there a moment that kind of like drew you to it?

You know, I think the last time I, I thought hard about this, then I thought it's like, well, you know, I got my first computer in fourth grade and that like, I thought that was the thing, you know, and we were of the generation where computers in school was new. You know, our parents didn't have that, or even my older siblings didn't have that. I still had a typewriter. Like, you know, going to school and having computers and that being part of it, and you know, Clippy in Microsoft Word, you know, being your first friend, like first online friend, but not online. But I think one of the big moments for me was kind of around junior high we had dial up Internet and I could only be on for 30 minutes a day. I kind of got into geocities and websites and I basically figured out how to print the code on the dot matrix. Literally I copied all the code into Word, printed it out, and then I started handwriting code literally by hand. I had a book about like HTML from the library and I was handwriting it and then on the typewriter I would like, you know, type some of it up and like look at it. But honestly, like I would go on and as soon as the 30, like I get connected to the Internet and then it was like a race and I had my notes in front of me so I can type like 200 something words about it. Yeah. And so I just got really into it because I wanted to see like, hey, all these changes that I'm making, what do they look like? And then I would kind of do the same thing at the Very end, I'd copy all the code, print it out again and kind of repeat. And I never really like, I tried to do computer science in college and decided not to do that. And there's a whole story there. I think that was on another. I talked about that on the. When we took over the develop the D hug when SJ and crew and I took over the D hug before. So catch that story there. But yeah, I just, it wasn't right. And it's just web and HTML has always fascinated me and it's kind of been underlying. So like in architecture school, I was the first one to have like a web portfolio. I learned Flash and it helped me get my first job. When I left architecture and I got into multimedia design, it was my web experience that proved that I could like I had a digital portfolio. It proved that I could learn. Even though I've never done a jib jab video, I could learn how to do a jib jab video. Like, you know, it's those things. And it got me my first role in marketing. The company needed a website and so just like that, underlying underlining. Underlying, underlying right. Underlying foundation of web. And it just pushed me. And as soon as I found HubSpot and once it started to evolve to the platform then it just like the floodgates open and I just really started looking at, you know, how do I make the most of this technology? How do I connect and integrate and expand it? But is that a moment, a lifetime for me?

Do you feel like you. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

No, go ahead.

I was just curious like when you, when you did discover HubSpot, how influential was the community aspect? I mean, do you think you would have pursued it further if it wasn't for the community?

So I come just 2016. I actually didn't know about the community in the beginning. What happened? I was going through onboarding and they really wanted me to publish a blog and I was never going to get approval for why to buy instead of rent, like the PDF, the blog, like. So I, I didn't know how to get through onboarding and I had to implement sales and marketing. So I went to Academy and I got my first certifications that I just like really started rolling. But then I would hit like a limitation like, well, as homeowners, you don't have a job title that matters to a deal. And I was like, how can I change that? And supports like, oh, you can't. The deal record is always going to have name and job title. And I was like, list of well, let's just use job title for something else. So we started putting different information and that was not their job title, it was something else I put in there. And I just kept going to support with all these B2C problems and they were like, go, put that in the ideas. And so I actually found the community through ideas, ah, interesting, around like 20, 18, 19 in there. And then it kind of just grew. And once I found the ideas and it, you know, I started seeing questions and all those good things. But the community, like the community had the biggest impact and the ecosystem overall with staying. Because from that moment on, like I, I looked at jobs at HubSpot and they were all on site in Boston at the time and I was like, oh, that's not going to happen. But wherever I work, it just needs to be a company that uses HubSpot in some way and I'll be okay. And I think that's held true and it's kind of been what guided me through my random, you know, last three and a half, four years of experience. But yeah, there's something special about it, the community and the ecosystem.

Nick, I just want to say props to you for having Jennifer insert that subtle real estate, you know, reference there to keep that going for you.

It's kind of like mandatory and the pre sheet that we give people, if they can't mention it, then we just don't do the show with them. Basically. It's kind of like it's. I become that picky where we need to mention it every single time. But I'm happy when it happens, you know what I mean? I just like, I sit back, I enjoy it because I know Dennis is thinking in his head, oh, we're talking about this again. I knew it. I knew it. So it gives me a little bit of, a little bit of joy that I, I like to just kind of like to keep in my little joy, my little bucket of joy over here on the side that I. My real estate. One of these days we're going to have my manager at the real estate place on here if I can ever get him to do it, just so we could talk a whole episode of Real Estate.

Oh my God.

Just drive Dennis nuts.

So, you know, schedule.

There you go. There you go. You did mention, you mentioned architecture, right? That that was the, what you went to basically what you went to school for, right? Yeah. You in that, in that same question that I was talking about. You had mentioned that you actually got to visit. Did you, did you help design one of the buildings at the School.

Yeah. So I, After I graduated, my mentor told me, don't get your master's degree here and don't get a job in the Dallas, Fort Worth area. You're just going to learn from people who know the same things as you.

So.

Not. I don't think my parents are very happy about it, but I applied for over 300 jobs across the country. Not a single one in Texas. So Seattle, Florida.

Wow.

Pennsylvania, New York, everywhere. And I got three interviews. Two were in person, one was a phone screen, one was Orlando or no, Miami, and the other was Wilkes Fair, Pennsylvania. And I, they were like, well, are you really sure you can be here? I was like, well, I have this gallery thing in Washington, D.C. for my study abroad in Finland, and we're all having a reunion there. And that's kind of what I was like, I'll just drive the other two hours and I'll. I'll be there. And So I drove 70001600 miles from Texas to Pennsylvania. I interviewed for this job. And like 20 minutes into my drive home, they called me on my like, old Motorola, you know, and they're like, since you drove all this way, like, we feel like need to offer you this job.

Wow.

My. I, I mean, I'm qualified. I will say I just love the.

Driving part because, like, I'm a huge fan of it myself. Like, I just, I, I would have done the same thing.

Yeah. So I, I mean, I was there. That wasn't my first cross country trip, but, you know, I, I went and I was really lucky. I was part of an incredible team. The company I worked for, they designed Apple stores. They designed like Bill Gates home in Washington state. Like, they have five offices across the country. Just like architecture that makes you kind of feel. It just connects with nature. It's very modern and just amazing. But anyway, I got to work on this project at Penn State and I did like, I was building the foam and the models for it. We did the 3D Revit. Like, I got into all of that. Went through. And about two years into working there, the recession finally caught up because I graduated in the housing bubble, of course. And so they had their first center layoffs, and I never got to see it finished. But last summer we went to Pennsylvania, my husband and daughter and I, and we drove through Penn State and we got to walk through the building together.

That is awesome.

Yeah. I mean, I can't take. I mean, obviously I was not the arcs and there was a whole team and everything, but there were little pieces of it where I was Like, I. I had a. Played a part in this and there's a building that exists that I helped.

That's amazing.

That's amazing. I love that. That's fantastic. Yeah. Let me ask you, does the. And you don't have to get super detailed into it, but if you don't want to. But the. Another thing I like to ask people because, like, as anyone who's been listening to the show thus far, right. And other shows as well, like, there's definitely a huge tech aspect, right. That everybody knows. Let's say rewind the clocks back 10 years or maybe even more. The balance of work and home life was a little bit more easier to separate. Right. Without smartphones, without this, without that, without the instant contact from anyone and everyone at any given moment. Especially when you work in real estate, it happens, right? It happens now, but before, not so much. Is there a. Do you find it hard or is it. Is it a challenge to create that work life balance?

I think when I first started working from home, it was during COVID like you're in lockdown on top of it. So it was much harder to walk away from the desk or to differentiate. But I feel like I've gotten a lot better at it and have a good balance. I run and walk in the mornings. We walk our dogs twice a day. Work out, like, I think for me. And that's why I don't have any hobbies, I think, because anything I do outside of work is like working out or using, like moving my body because you're constantly sitting or if you're lucky to have a standing desk, you know, you have that. But it's just that being in front of a screen. So anything that forces me to get away from a screen, hiking, camping, you know, watching my daughter play soccer, any of those things that just takes you away from devices are the things that I kind of lean towards that.

No, 100%. Absolutely. I love that.

And that's how. I don't know, that's how I make balance, right? Like, right?

Oh, absolutely. No, I agree with that. Because it's hard. It is. It's hard to like, strike that balance now when even. Because, like, it's even hard. Like most. A lot of people we talk to too, even when they have, you know. Because another question we try to ask is like, is there a particular hobby or something that you would do that the least. Or if you, if you, if you could choose a job that was least tech savvy to kind of get away from everything? And it's. It's a hard, it's just a hard question to answer nowadays because there isn't. They're almost there. You can hardly find a thing that doesn't really involve like the tech aspect of things where when you try to kind of balance out because work, work, life balance for like anybody, not just at HubSpot, like just, but just say, for example, that works at HubSpot. It's heavy tech all day, every day. Like, I still answer slack questions when I'm not working or when I'm, when the weekend pops up and there's something that's driving me nuts, you know, I'm, since we work from home, like I'm only two seconds away from walking to the computer, sitting down and trying to vibe code something, you know, especially now. So it is really hard to try to separate those two things. But I think, I think like you said, I think the answer is to try to do those things that get you out. I know Isaac too. Isaac likes to hike and Isaac likes to go on. Like those type of things are like, those are the things that are getting. I'm sure you're going to have your phone with you, obviously, in case, especially if you're hiking, like there's a bear attack, you got to get a phone.

Like, that's totally gonna save you.

Well, at least you can call somebody. I'm just saying, like, you're not gonna go out without it. But it's, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, the phone is going to be nothing.

Yeah.

If they like a taser in a phone, that's the next, I believe the next iPhone version is going to have that. But no, it's there, it's just one of those things where it's like, those are the type of things that you kind of have to try to maybe even force yourself to do if it's outside of like something that you would have normally done to try to get yourself away from that. So, you know, I, I, I agree that those are the, the type of things that you're gonna just, people are just gonna have to try to pursue if they really want to escape.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I actually like, I, it's been a while now, but I take Pilates classes. Like, I go to a gym that has a schedule and I don't always take the same classes every day of the week, but for, consistently, for the last seven years, I've been taking these classes and it's way outside of my comfort zone. And, you know, I feel a Little bit stronger. But I feel like I don't have a lot to show for it, but it's accountability to, like, step away. And sometimes, you know, my favorite classes, Tuesday at 9:30, but it's on my schedule and I just work a little bit earlier and I stay a little bit later. But I think that's the balance part that, like, really makes it work. I. I don't know how the, the people who are like being monitored and recorded, you know, every, every keystroke analyzed, like to. To get up and work at 8 till 5 and you're like, everything is observed. I don't think those people will ever find balance. And I hope that nobody who has work from home employees, like, enforce that because it's terrifying. That's not reality. And giving people independence and accountability and responsibility is all part of working from home. And it doesn't come through that Big Brother type of control. So, yeah, I think having some flexibility in your schedule too, and then having things that. They're gonna charge me 18 if I don't go to that class, so I'm gonna go to that class.

That's always motivation too, right?

I've heard a good hobby someone told me about recently is you go to a big box hardware store, like a Lowe's or a Home Depot, and you get PVC pipe and just put it on the ground and put it together. I'm not sure who.

Sounds like a genius to me.

Sounds like a pretty genius, like, put together.

In the store I was building for. For my pool, I was building the piping because, like, was it the inbound? I don't remember if I was the inbound with you, Dennis, or the one before that. When I was there, like, when they installed the pool, it was all. It was all, like, it was just all the corrugated tubing, like the rubber tubing or the plastic tubing. And it had cracked while I was away. And my wife's like, what is going on? And it's just like. It was like this waterfall of just. And it was just pouring out and pouring out. And I'm like, looking at it on my phone and she's showing me, and I'm like, I'm in Boston. I can do nothing. You're in Illinois. I cannot, like. But luckily there were. There were family in the area that could come in. Just like. But like, I was like, I'm never dealing with this again. So I. In the store, I think it was last year, I just sat on. I was trying to build out, like, how it was going to frame out and how like all it was going to fit together and the stuff. So I'm like literally sitting on the floor of like. I think it was Home Depot. And I'm just like. With all these plumbing parts, these PVC pipes just all over the floor and they're like, everyone's like. And plus it's late at night too because I shop late at night. It's like therapy for me. But it's just like so like, like it just. They must have thought I was just like I had lost it because I'm just sitting there and I'm like, like I was playing with Tinker toys on the ground. It was just crazy. But yeah, that's. I mean it's a sign of genius, really. It's a. It's what I do, basically.

Einstein used to do that as well, I believe. Yeah, it's true.

Yeah, I did. Because he cleaned pools. I believe that was. Yeah, yeah.

So that was very, very niche skill. Learning the assemble PPC pipe just the right way.

It's on my resume. So I hope it works. I mean like, you know, for that next job because I mean, obviously, you know, you know, this is, you know, this, this is my true calling. But you know, you gotta have a fallback at least. So. But that'll be it. But no, I wanted to, I wanted to say is there, and I asked this because sometimes people don't want to be found but is there anywhere that people can find you if they want to follow more?

I'm on LinkedIn. That's kind of the main spot, the community in the developer Slack. So if you're there, join. If you're watching this, you are part of the developer community. So come join us and the academy.

Don't forget to check the academy soon.

Yeah, probably not Inbound week because nobody's going to pay attention to that. But the week after Inbound or so we'll launch it.

We got an event inbound, don't we Jennifer, that there is an event at Inbound.

Yeah. Hit us up for an exclusive invite right now. I don't know when this is going live, so I don't know how much I can say right now, but definitely there is a developer builder party, as always going bigger and better every year. I won't be there, but it's going to be amazing.

So Dennis will be there.

Dennis, yeah, Dennis is going to keep the party going for me.

Indeed.

He's gonna represent. He's gonna represent us all.

We can make Jennifer cutouts and you guys can all take.

I told Them. I wanted a. I wanted a full size, like cardboard cut out of myself there. I don't know what the. I think you have to pay more because of the height of the mohawk, but, like, I think it's worth the extra money.

So, unfortunately, the rest of your body is very short.

So that's the thing. I'm two foot tall, but with like a four foot mohawk. It's very weird to print that. It's odd. But. But no, I wanted to say we're running up on time, but I did want to say thank you for coming on and I thank you for coming back after. Yeah, after I ditched, I think twice, you know, for personal stuff. But, like, I do want to thank you for coming on because this was one of the episodes that I really wanted to have because, you know, knowing that when you were coming on board, it was one of those things where, you know, when you get to talk to somebody who's, you know, come from the community and a champion as well, you know, rightfully so. You. You get to, like, the people that we get to meet on these episodes that we shoot are just phenomenal, and they're fantastic. And everybody comes with this kind of set of not just stories, but there's these. These lessons learned, these mentorships. Right. Not just with the program, but like the things that you've learned. And every time I tell Dennis, every single time we do an episode, I am amazed at just how great. Every single. There's never been one that we've been like, oh, man, I wish that could have been better. And it's. And it still rings true to this day to right now, to one hour into this. It's fantastic. And I just want to say thank you for coming on. It's just.

Indeed. Yes, yes.

We still hit an hour. I know he said that they were going to be shorter, but between the two of us, we managed to get through a whole hour. But thank you so much for having me and Dennis, as always, really happy to chat. So thank you guys so much for having me twice.

Yeah, we usually we end something like I try to come up with something funny and witty, but what I wanted to do for this one is I wanted you to go on record, Jennifer, and I want you to say, to end the show, I am a developer.

Okay. I'm going to look at Dennis when I say this. Okay. I am a developer.

There we go.

Be still, my heart. Be still.

All right, everyone, thank you for.

Thank you.

Thank you for watching, everyone. We really do appreciate it. Don't forget to like the video. And don't forget, forget to subscribe to the HubSpot YouTube channel. Thanks.

So come join us and the Academy.

Don't forget to check the Academy soon.

Yeah, probably not Inbound week because nobody's going to pay attention to that. But the week after Inbound or so we'll, we'll launch it.

We got an event inbound, don't we, Jennifer? That we should.

There is an event at Inbound. Yeah. Hit us up for an exclusive invite right now. I don't know when this is going live, so I don't know how much I can say right now, but definitely there is a developer builder party. As always, bigger and better every year and won't be there, but it's going to be amazing.

So Dennis will be there.

Dennis, yeah, Dennis is going to keep the party going for me.

Indeed.

He's going to represent, he's going to represent us all.

We can make Jennifer cutouts and you guys can all take.

I told him I wanted a, I wanted a full size, like cardboard cutout of myself there. I don't know what the, I think you have to pay more because of the height of the mohawk, but like, I think it's worth the extra money.

So unfortunately the rest of your body is very short.

So I was gonna say that's the thing. I'm two foot tall but with like a four foot mohawk. It's very weird to print that. It's odd. But no, I wanted to say we're running up on time, but I did want to say thank you for coming on and I think we're coming back after. Yeah, after I ditched, I think twice, you know, for personal stuff. But like, I, I, I do want to thank you for coming on because this was one of the episodes that I really wanted to have because, you know, knowing that when you were coming on board, it was one of those things where, you know, when you get to talk to somebody who's, you know, come from the community and a champion as well, you know, rightfully so. You, you get to like, the people that we get to meet on these episodes that we shoot are just phenomenal and they're fantastic. And everybody comes with this kind of set of not just stories, but there's these, these lessons learned, these mentorships. Right. Not just with the program, but like the things that you've learned. And every time I tell Dennis, every single time we do an episode, I am amazed at just how great. Every single. There's never been one that we've been like, oh, man, I wish that could have been better. And it's and it still rings true to this day to right now, to one hour into this. It's fantastic. And I just want to say thank you for coming on. It's just indeed.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, we still hit an hour. I know he said that they were going to be shorter, but between the two of us, we managed to get through a whole hour. But thank you so much for having me and Dennis, as always, really happy to chat. So thank you guys so much for having me twice.

And yeah, we usually we end something like I try to come up with something funny and witty. But what I wanted to do for this one is I wanted you to go on record, Jennifer, and I want you to say to end the show. I am a developer.

Okay. I'm gonna look at Dennis.