Ep. 30 - Sandboxes and Smile Files with Denise Thijzen | Developers After Dark

Thanks again to our sponsor, HubSpot Sandboxes, the only sand you can play in without needing a shower afterwards. Hello and welcome to Developers After Dark. I think we are in the 40th episode today. Is that what we're at?

No, 30th.

Right. 30. Okay. I'm a bit off, I'm a bit off. But no, it's, you know, we have a really great episode for everybody today. We're going to be talking about sandboxes and we're going to be talking with somebody who is the PM of sandboxes here at HubSpot. But before we get into all of that, let me first just tell everyone. I mean, if you've watched before, it's going to be a little bit redundant, but we feel it's so important that you go to the website, especially when I update it eventually to be current with the current episodes. That'll make it even more of an enjoyable experience. But if you go to devs@darkpod.com that's where you're going to be able to see all the back episodes. You're going to be able to see kind of where you can find us, because it's not just YouTube, the developer's YouTube channel, but it's also on Spotify and Apple Music and pretty much anywhere you consume your podcasts. With that being said, the other place you're going to definitely want to go is the HubSpot YouTube channel. Now it's at HubSpot Developers and it's not just us there, although that does make it that much more special. There are going to be many, many other things there with many other people, HubSpotters, community members alike, where you're going to be able to learn a multitude of different tips, tricks, kind of what's going on, like summaries of, you know, what's going on, you know, during the month and just kind of stuff like that where you can pretty much get yourself lost for a good, I don't know, two to three hours and you won't even know it. So it's one of those really, really good experiences. I kind of like that when you can kind of hang around a channel like that that has that much useful information. Now you also want useful information kind of on the spot. You kind of want to subscribe to things that give you useful information, especially if you're a developer in the HubSpot community or in the HubSpot world. And you're going to be able to do that. So don't worry about that. That's going to be@developers.HubSpot.com changelog. One more time for Dennis. Developers.HubSpot.com Changelog. You will know, you'll be alerted of the things that are not only happening or have happened recently in the developer community, but also upcoming events or upcoming plans as well. So that's something you're definitely going to want to check out. Now, as far as learning things, that's not the only place you can go.

Tell me more.

I will. The one good thing about HubSpot is there is a multitude of places in which you can go to learn. There's not only mentorship programs, there's not only change logs, there's not only this show, which you will learn a great deal listening here, but there's also the Academy. So if you go to academy, HubSpot.com, you are going to be able to take certifications. You're going to be able to learn anything from inbound marketing all the way to SEO. There's CMS for developers. There's a multitude of courses there you can take as well that'll kind of upskill you. And you, you get, there's a, there's a little bit of, there's some humble bragging there as well because if you are a provider in the marketplace, as I like to tell people, you will be able to get your badge as a provider when you get these certifications on your listings in the Marketplace place. So, Nick, Nick, Nick.

This sounds very expensive. We need to get a loan.

Listen, you know, economy's rough. Yeah. I don't want you to have to mortgage the second house. But there is good news. There is good news. This doesn't cost you anything. This is free. HubSpot provides this because we love everyone so, so much. And then of course, there's our special sponsor, HubSpot. Sandboxes don't just play in the sand. Rule the beach. Oh, oh, there we go.

Wow. I need to have that.

That's gonna be one of those ones.

And this is working.

But, no, but before we get, before we get to that, let me just remind everyone, please, for everyone who watches and who will be watching in the future, go ahead and hit like on this video and all the other ones that we love to do and subscribe. More importantly, subscribe to the HubSpot YouTube channel. Subscribe so that way you'll be alerted when really, really great content comes along like this. So without further ado, I'm going to let our guest introduce themselves. Denise, why don't you tell everyone who you are and what you do.

Right. So yeah, thank you. That was amazing. I've definitely engaged with a lot of that content. I love developers after Dark. I've seen some really good stuff. So I'm excited to be here and talk to you guys. My name is Denise, last name Tyson. So Denise Tyson or Tyson, the American version. I am a product manager at HubSpot and I've been working on the Sandboxes product for almost, almost four years now and also developer test accounts for a while. So yeah, I pretty pretty much testing and, you know, testing and building on HubSpot and growing your CRM to be as customized as you want and as good as it gets.

Beautiful. So I'm going to tell everyone, like, for those who aren't familiar specifically with like the term sandboxes or like a sandbox, can you describe a little bit like what that is and why that would benefit someone using it?

Yeah, great question. So obviously, as it is today, users, especially when you're thinking of roles like people that are in the ops type of roles, like sales ops, marketing ops, or people that are doing systems architecting, the tech stack for HubSpot and third party apps, having a test account or an environment that you can safely test changes in and build proof of concepts and then eventually replicate that in a production portal or like a, you know, a live account, it's really good for that use case. You can, you know, you get access to the, in any case in the sandbox world, what that means is that a customer with a enterprise subscription and they are basically able to create a sandbox which is going to copy all of the features and functionality of their life account and then in addition to that it also copies a handful or all of the supported assets that we have today. It's not all assets, but it is the majority of the assets that they can use. For business orchestration, think about things like lead nurture campaigns or data orchestration. If you're connecting integrations and you want to, you know, build your data mapping logic, it gives you a copy of those supported metadata things like your CRM object definitions for standard custom objects, as well as your workflows that have dependencies on these standard and custom objects, but also your automated marketing emails that you use for lead nurturing in your workflows and lists and forms. By having all of those assets that are the copy of your production, you can then go ahead and test changes on them. Maybe you want to eventually create a new custom object. So that's where you can do it in your safe environment. This way you don't impact your end users who may be actively selling stuff. So you're doing it in isolated space, but on a replica of your live account. And then once you're happy with it, you can move those changes to the Live account. You can also do like user acceptance testing, stress tests, things like payload testing to make sure that your workflows are not hitting all of the API limits and maybe breaking because it's able to emulate what that production account is going to do. If you enroll high volumes of records in a workflow and you need to send webhooks to third party systems, you can do those payload testing in there as well. Or do user acceptance testing by inviting tiger teams, having them test things out, making sure that the process is designed as they would need, and then eventually productionize all of this safely into your life account.

Love it.

To me, it feels like long gone should be the days of where people are like, oh, we'll just, we'll just do it live. Because I always tell the story and I don't remember if it was just with AJ but our Dennis heard this one as well. But like, you know, there'd be times where we'd be testing things when I worked at previous places, just like on the live, on the live site, on the LIVE database, all in live, like all the records, like, and it was just.

Yeah.

I mean there's, there's some terrifying things that can happen throughout one's life, but going to like save that file or like update that table and then knowing it's like live with thousands of people that you could possibly just knock off a session while they're in the midst of like, I don't know, searching for a home or trying to like, you know, just. Yeah, this is one of those things where it's like, it feels like this should be. Especially if you have all the right tools and you have all the right people to do this, you don't want to be playing around without being able to test stuff out. So I think kind of a no brainer.

I've never been so terrified of a workflow, honestly, like enabling a workflow just because I fear that it's going to blast out an email to everyone in the world. I want to delete a thousand accounts. It's, it's. Yeah, it's. This is a no brainer. Do this.

Do you get a lot of people, Denise, that tell you that? It's like, oh, yeah, no, that sounds nice. But yeah, I think we're, I think we'll be okay. I think we'll be okay. Because I. You usually get like, I don't know, there's always that reluctance. But when you start to literally think about it just in like the pure numbers, it's like, do you really want to screw something up so badly? Like, you know, that you knock yourself out of commission?

Yeah. No. The answer is no. There's hardly anyone that would say, I'll just do it in production. It's totally fine. I think people are very much aware of. Because listen, you can definitely do a whole lot of things if you want to at the end of the day, but it means that you need to be really, really good at due diligence. How am I going to control the permissions so that no end users see these things? How do I then. Then change the permission so that they can see it? You have to really work at defining the blast radius in such a way that it's just like so much work that there are so many opportunities for oversights and then ending up with really terrible. Maybe you decide, I'm going to just change a pipeline name. Something as simple as added a pipeline name could suddenly break your whole sales team's deal. Ui, right? Where suddenly the pipeline name is removed and. Or maybe all of the pipeline stages are removed from the record. So it's. And then think about all of the dependencies, right? Like you have maybe workflows that are relying on that pipeline.

Yes.

Name and those are all active. And so like, yeah, it's like do not do it. But if you want to do it, you know, knock yourself out. There will be likely consequences. Or you need to be really good at the details and tracking everything. Right. So yeah, most people will say we need sandboxes.

Yeah, absolutely. No, that's a good point. That is has there. It sounds like you were. It sounds like you were describing something that you've like that you've seen in the past that sounded very specific. Where you said where it is. Is that something? Where is that? Have you run across those catastrophic? Because, like, I imagine like a lot of people that. Well, not. Okay, I shouldn't say a lot, but I imagine that sometimes people that realize they need sandboxes realize it after something has happened. Right.

Yeah. So, yes, the answer is yes, because we have been busy working on our new feature, which is the deploy to production feature, which is currently in public beta. And that does require as a pm, going into the. Into the product and just basically testing all of the possible scenarios that can go wrong and how graceful is our tech in doing certain things. And so, yeah, especially as it pertains to things like edit whenever you're thinking. I mean, it's something like. I come from a background in consulting HubSpot customers, so I used to consult our customers in EMEA and then also North America later on. So I've done about say 5 years maybe of consulting, which is literally every day opening the UI and talking about all of the use cases and all of the integrations and all of the things. And you end up learning a lot of, you know, how the user thinks about our product. And one of the things that as consultants, we really never ever tell our users is to edit live things. Right? Like don't go and edit a property that is currently used across 5 million records and 5,000 emails that are currently in workflows. You just don't want to do that because there's a chance you're going to break stuff with that hat on. That I was testing some things in the deploy to broad flow and I was like, yeah, this feels like we're not ready for it yet because it's going to break stuff. So yes, the answer is yes. Probably could have just said yes. That's the background of it. It's like a fear. You don't want to break anything, right?

Like, yeah, no, we want the long answers. We definitely do. We just. This is what we're, this is what we're all about. Here is the talking and the. Because it's, it's, it's, it's such an amazing thing because it's such an amazing service because of what it does. And not only what it does, but what it prevents from happening. So it's, it's. The more details the better for sure. But I imagine because now you mentioned, you mentioned a beta and then depending on when people watch this, HubSpot is having what inbound not too far away from here, like a couple weeks. Right. Things have to be pretty busy on the sandbox, right?

Yeah, it's busy, but it's good busy for the most part. There's always going to be, you know, like, I probably need a little bit more sleep. But no, it's good, it's exciting. It's a, it's a product that, you know, is a long time coming. The team has been working for the past year and a half on a lot of. It's a big, big infra heavy product in and of itself. Like, literally, it's like people are like, why is it so hard? Well, literally, it's a copy of your production account with all of the random volumes of metadata that you could have. We want to make sure as a team that we deliver a product that has a robust technology, that is going to be reliable, that is going to be really good at tracking changes between environments. Because the deploy to production feature is a. Net new feature, we've attempted to support it in the past on a really small scale. But in order to really deliver a mature version of sandboxes, we did need to think about a lot of. Net new technology that didn't exist previously. The team has been doing a lot of background work on building. Net new tech to support a lot of these exciting future features. The first one that we're going to be delivering is a deploy to production, which is something that our users have been asking for the past three and a half years. We're excited for it, but it has been intentionally slow because of the fact that it could potentially have downstream impact on live accounts. So we've been really, really slow at the sequencing of the scope of it and our users have started to use it and we're seeing a lot of repeat people that are doing repeat deploys. So it's definitely starting to materialize and that's really exciting to see.

Yeah, I think, honestly, you should be very proud of yourself. I remember when we were in Dublin, was it two years ago now, where you had a whole talk on sandboxes and the state of it and all the things that need to be fixed and made better and more efficient and just reliable and you've been working hard on it. So honestly, this is such amazing progress on this feature.

Yeah, it was Boston, by the way. You guys wanted to. Yeah, we, we did.

I remember sitting in that conference room with all of us and like going over things and you were awesome in that.

Like, you just.

You knew everything that needed to happen, right?

Yeah. Everyone's like, jaws, tell me more.

No, I. Honestly, it's been. Yeah, it's. It's so freaking complex. Right. It's like literally. And that's the funny thing because, you know, it's like it's a really infra heavy product and it requires you to really stretch yourself beyond your comfort zone. I mean, you know, I walk into. My team consists of currently, it's incredibly skewed towards backend. Right. So I have about seven backend engineers. I have an amazing staff, tl, who's just, wow, he's just been such a great partner to learn from and to also like make you critically think about some of the past decisions for the product and what the pat forward should look like. And so as a pm, you walk in there and it's like, okay, let's talk engineer talk now. And let me try to make sense of what they're trying to tell me. And. And then also how can I provide them with the product insights that they need so that their tech is designed in a way that is going to be well for the end user. Right. So it's been a very humbling experience at the start. I'm not gonna lie. I was like deer in a headlight type of thing. But once you really get into it and you're pushed to. At the end of the day, we care so deeply about our end users and making sure that they have a product that is easy to understand and easy to use. So, yeah, it's been a very rewarding experience to really evolve from a PM that is maybe just like thinking about features to a PM that really is thinking about the technical complexities that are needed to build the product, because it's a full product at the end of the day. So, yeah, thank you. I mean, I loved giving that presentation. It was amazing to talk about complex things and have people actually kind of understand it.

How are you able to coordinate with all the team? I mean, there's a thousand features and HubSpot's notorious for the teams to be kind of like their blinders on not thinking about the other things that are happening in the platform. But you have to, right? You are a product that has features that are the features all around. How are you able to actually just track all that?

It's not easy. The whole dependencies is a thing that is really tough for sandboxes because literally every team builds on, you know, the actual core product and we are a replica of that core product. Right. So whenever a team makes a decision, they can potentially introduce edge cases that we didn't account for. So there is still an opportunity there to drive even more awareness internally as to, you know, hey, guys, whenever you're. It's still something we are figuring out on how we can do that, because it's like a whack a mole. You're constantly having to be like, oh, no, the UI has changed what has happened here? Right. And so there's a lot of random stuff that you need to constantly be thinking about. So I think the way we've gone about it is really thinking about the scope of our product, what do we need to deliver, and then what are the main teams that we should definitely be, you know, staying closely in Touch with and engaging with on a more regular basis. But I think once you define the scope and the roadmap is pretty clear, the backend engineers, engineers are just really good at, you know, then taking ownership. So the ownership piece is very, very critical. And the best engineers would be the ones that are literally saying, I'm going to run with the show, I'll touch in with you occasionally just to make sure that any scope creep is clarified. And then we handle it really iteratively. So it really is clarifying the roadmap and giving clear ownership across the team. And then anything that becomes suddenly like noise from the outside. Yeah, you just need to kind of handle those on the fly.

Yeah.

I think that's the hardest thing is that that external noise where like, you have, like your path, you've got your roadmap, you know what you're doing, and then all of a sudden somebody comes in is like, hey, by the way.

And you're like, it's not in the plan.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you, you need to learn. I mean, you know, the thing that has been really important in that sense is then learning how to deal with escalations. Right. In a way that there's ways you can go about it and there's different flavors of PMs. Right. You have PMs that will say, nope, not going to happen, bye. But obviously you don't want to block other teams. We in sandboxes, we have dealt with that forever. Like, whenever we wanted to work on, deploy to production, people would be like, sorry, too busy, can't help, Would love to, but can't. Right. And so it ends up making you basically, like, in order to move forward and deliver for your end users, you have to at one point say, okay, that's it, I'm pulling out my arms and we're going to start getting into it by ourselves. So I think that as a team has given us the empathy to understand that it's not okay to lead with a full. No, sometimes it is, sometimes you need to make those calls. But it pushes you to think in ways of how can we be collaborative? But also, is this the right thing for all users? You can challenge other group PMs, maybe you tell them, well, what's the data for your feature? What's the priority and what's the bottom line? And you can do a lot of those things, but ultimately you need to see how can you still build a win win scenario. So it teaches you to be really good at escalation and being collaborative, asking the right Questions and coming with align, you know, agreeing on aligning or disagreeing, but figuring a path forward.

Do you feel like you've evolved with that over time? I mean, are you better at that now than you were before you were PM on this team? I know the answer is already. I know.

I mean, if I'm to answer, yeah, I think so. I don't know if others would necessarily always agree, you know, if they've been on, on the receiving end of a no or not yet.

Do something. I do something. That's. That's all. That's the, that's how I respond.

Yeah, I think, I think, you know, when as a, as a success manager, especially working with our largest accounts for quite some years, you learn to navigate a lot of, you know, objection. Handling situations and different stakeholders. So I think that gives you that capacity to quickly pivot on, okay, read your audience and, you know, how can we still figure it out? But yeah, I'd say in this capacity for sure. This year has been a really good learning opportunity because we've had random stuff that we're like, okay, wait, this is going to derail a roadmap. How can we pivot? And you know, what's the best outcome here?

But I think you also said one thing that's like, really, really important for a lot of, especially in like the developer sphere, is when you said, like, is this good for all users? Yeah, like, there's a lot of people that will like, I mean, we've gotten input on things too where it's like, oh, hey, like this stock should be worded this way. And it's like, that's great. A very, very, very technical person is going to understand this, but a junior dev is not going to get it. You need to find that common ground of like, what is. How can you basically take something so super scoped and bring that scope out to a broader audience to accomplish still the same thing, but for multiple different people. And I think that that's a very, that's a hard challenge for a lot of people to be able to get to that level. Saying that alone, like, proves that. Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed it in, like, in what you're doing as a pm, because that is a very hard mindset to constantly have to keep going with, especially get all those individual requests.

So, yeah, the mindset, it's at. The mindset is amazing. But at, at the scale that you have to perform, that I think is where I'm even more envious. I'm just like, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, I'm. I'm stubborn as it is, but, like, to be able to come up with that sort of, like, path forward or middle ground amongst a small group versus, like, the entire org almost right, where. Yeah, that's one of those things where it's like, I'm kind of in awe. That's. That's pretty amazing, I gotta say.

By the way, we'll have a copy of this for you for your. Your yearly review. So you can send this to your boss.

Not be like, copy the transcript and be like, they told me I was great. Please.

You don't even show up to the review. You just send a link and be like.

But I wanted to say, though, like, one thing that you said resonates with me a lot is I'm incredibly stubborn. Like, so bad. And so I think that is a superpower as well. Right. Because I think it's not just about. You cannot just stick it. Like, you can't just stay on that pillar. Like, it's a good pillar to stand on. It's a good foundation to have, but you need to prune it to have also a little bit more of the skills where you think, okay, whilst I probably am right, I know I'm right, but I need to get people on board. And so how do I now. And I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong as well. I don't want to sound cocky by any means, but it basically is like that stuff. Stubbornness gives you the passion and the drive to eventually deliver the outcomes that you need. But it's that other side where you say, if I continue to be so rigid, I'm not going to get to the outcome. So you end up having to become more strategic and more open to, you know, to fit to figuring out how can we move. Because everyone at the end of the day is going to be stubborn, right? I think we, most people are. Um, and so it's a good place to get energy from, but it's also a good place to say, if I stay here on my islands, I'm not going to move forward. And so, yeah, that. I would say that. You know, same.

Excellent. No, I. Yeah, I. I find myself falling into that kind of mindset sometimes where I'm just like, the stubbornness because. But it. I mean, but you make good points though, too, that it's, you know, and plus two, at the end of the day, like, everybody's trying to reach. It's not like, it's not like you're it's not like you're fighting like two different mindsets where there's like two different outcomes like that you're trying to reach. It's. Everybody wants like what's best for the end user, you know, so it's like there is that common. It's just like, I can't remember. I was in a meeting once where they, I can't remember how they exactly phrased it, but it was like, you know, it's like multiple roads but they're leading to the same path. Type of like analogy where it's like you're gonna fight, you're gonna have some sort of like, you know, butting of heads, but like, everybody's trying to get to that, like solve for user, you know, at the end of the board game, you know, so. But yeah, but no, I, I, I, I do. I'm just. Because I am stubborn. I will agree that it can be a superpower at times. Absolutely.

Well, let me start with devil's advocate.

No, I'm just kidding. I was gonna ask you, did you now I remember Dennis was saying, because I, I know you been working at HubSpot for about eight years now, right?

Yeah, almost nine.

Did you start in, as a, in sandboxes or.

No, I started as a customer success manager and.

Okay, so that was that. Hubs, okay you said?

Yeah, I was in Dublin for two and a half years and then I transitioned to Boston back in, I think 2019, like literally just in time for Covid. And yeah, I, I was promoted to principal inbound consultant. So I was working with our strategic accounts across, yeah, globally. And so, yeah, so I did a lot of consulting hours. I've about calculated it recently. I have about. Maybe this is like a soapbox moment for myself. This is how I hype myself up. Right. I have a smid aside. I'm like, I, I consulted roughly, give or take 7,000 hours with, you know, like literally all of the, and this is all of our CSMs. This is what they do every day. Right. Lead to like back to back calls where a user will come with a random thing and you're like, oh God, let me think about which parts of the product can help you do this and what is the outcomes. Yeah, it's a cool job, but it's a lot, especially with a product like HubSpot. Like you have so many different hubs. So at the end of the day, you need to feel pretty comfortable talking about all of the use cases and learn all of the features and really get your hands on the Product. So yeah, that was, that's my background. And then in 20, I think 2020 is when I. End of 2020 is when I moved to sandboxes.

What, what was.

Why?

I mean, that's like a different area altogether. What, what made you do that?

You know, I, to be really honest, I wasn't feeling challenged anymore in, in the role that I had. Not because I, it wasn't challenging, but I think I just reached a level where I was like, I would like to do more, I would like to tap into other parts of my strengths that I don't always get the opportunity to do in this capacity. And you know, when you're in success, you only think that you can grow upwards. Right. So the next thing after principal would have been to become a manager, possibly. And whilst I love mentoring and I love teaching and stuff and I'm, you know, I think I would have been able to do it, but I don't know if that would have been where my passion would have been. And so I got lucky because I stumbled. I like, coincidentally bumped into one of the longest standing PMs that I have always looked up to, Maggie Georgieva. She also started from a background of working in marketing at HubSpot and eventually grew into her product role. And she's an amazing product manager. And so I bumped into her randomly in the park and I was like, I'd love to grab coffee. And it sort of just evolved into her because she's so good at what she does. She started, you know, doing user research on me and she was like, so what do you want to do? And like, you know, and I was like, I would love product management, but I think. And so she was like, why haven't you done it? And so I said, oh, you know, I don't have a computer science background. And she was like, you don't need that. Look at me. And so that's kind of how it started. She was like, you know, what are. She did a lot of like asking me, what are things that you like, what are things that you would like to do more? And a lot of the answers that I was giving her landed on the PM role. And so she didn't lead with why aren't you a pm? She was just like first asking, like, you know, qualifying. And then once she was got the answer, she was like, oh, you know, I think this might be something for you. And. And that was.

It decided that happens too with people more commonly than, you know, that most people would realize. Because I mean, I mean, take for example like here. I mean, these two that I have to work with, you know, I've reached a level where I. I'm probably going to start auditioning for Spanish soaps or something like that, because, I mean, I think. I think I've maxed out. Like, I've carried these two as much as I possibly can to a level where now it's. It's so heavy, I'm almost. I'm plateauing with my, you know, charisma and everything else. But. But it's those type of things, though. Do I mean that. That type of, you know, that journey is probably more common than people probably imagine that it could be. But the one thing I want to ask you, though, is because it. And Dennis and AJ had mentioned this earlier, like, with the. With the sheer confidence and the, like, killing it in speeches and things of that nature, that was that always something then I didn't get to see that. That talk, which it's. I kind of want to do now.

I'll send you the recording.

I would know. I would love to, because, like, I. I am very envious of, like, people. And I've said this before, but, like, people who are able to do that and speak with such authority and knowledge on a certain thing and make it seem so effortless is to me, like, that's one of the things that I aspire to want to do one day, like, and is that always come naturally to you, or did that take a lot of, like, either time or. Some. Some. Some people need like a, you know, like a push, you know, to, like, go talk in front of people and they're like, yeah, no, I'm not doing that. How did that work with you?

Oh, it's a great question. I mean, I think that first of all, anything is. You can learn. It's just exposure therapy at this stage. I think there's. So the first time I. I found myself. I have to credit my dad, actually. Dennis, you're going to like this, because Dennis is shaping his daughter to be an amazing. What is she, like, 20? 20? Like a. What are. What are the millennials? What. What is she?

Oh, she's. She's gen Alpha.

Gen Alpha. So she's turning her gen Alpha daughter into an ex. Gen X Kids, like, at the end. But no. So sorry, I got distracted there. So my dad. My dad was like. Has always been a hobbyist, and one of the things that. He was one of the first people. So I come from Aruba, tiny island, and my dad was one of the first people that got a computer at Home. He, his, his background is in healthcare and he bought a computer and then we got Internet and he started working on a website. And so at the time the computer was in my room. Really awkward. So my dad would be working site at like 10. I'd be like, dad, I'm strange. Yeah. I was like, dad, I want to please. So eventually he moved it to my. My brother moved out and he went into. Yeah, it was a thing. But essentially all of this to say that he had this thick, thick HTML for Dummies book. And I was like, what is this? Right? And he was like, oh, it's something really complicated. Like, you know, you're not going to be able to do this. And I was like, okay. And so because it was in my room, I started, you know, playing with it and you know, building on Txt at the time. So I built my, my little website. It was Sailor Moon inspired and it's just had deep links and everything. It was like the whole thing, right? It's like it took little time for me to do it. And you know, I had like all the folders and I was like, dad, I'm ready. I need to, you know, upload it to the FTP, whatever this thing is. And he was like, okay, let's do it. And so, you know, he, he took. And then once it was done, he was like, oh my gosh, all of her clicks are, you know, working. And so he goes, I would like you to. I'm going to organize a little demonstration just for a tiny handful of people. You don't need. I just want you to talk about it. And I was like 13 at the time. And so he ended up basically inviting a bunch of doctors no way this thing. Because he wanted to show them that if my kid can do it. Doctors, no way this thing. Because he wanted to show them that if my kid can do it, he probably undersold me. Like, he must have said, my kid can do it. But it was like, if he can do it, you can do it too. And so he basically put me in that place and I had to talk to like this group of random people. And I think that was like my first like, what is it like, isn't there like a therapy name for like exposure therapy? Yeah, he just doesn't go and talk. And then, you know, it was like the doctors were like, oh my God, she made it sound so easy. And that's, you know, I would say that's the first time I found myself presenting in a room of people. And my background continued to Be in business communication. So I had a lot of university training on, you know, public speaking and stuff. But, yeah, I have a lot of tricks as well. Yeah.

So do you ever have, like, cold sweat flashbacks.

Like every time House comes on or like some other TV show with, like, doctors, like a Hauser type thing, or it's just like.

No, not that I'm still, to this day when I am speaking, I do. I do get, you know, I. The way I see it is I just have fun with it, you know, like, I just try to be as much as I can myself. And whoever doesn't like it, I can't control that. But I think that, you know, if you believe in whatever you're saying, then it, you know, it comes across. But there's a lot of truths as well. Yeah.

Believe in yourself. Right. I feel like a lot of that's just like self confidence more than even belief in what you're saying. No.

Yeah. And I'm not a very confident person, so there is an element. Yeah. I have a lot of.

I don't. You got me. Okay. All right.

I. I don't know if I agree with that statement. I don't know.

I don't know.

I have a lot of. I have a lot of imposter syndrome. So I. I am very much aware of, you know, are people going to think that what I'm saying is, you know, not interesting or whatever. But what I've learned, it's kind of like what you need to do is you need to remember whatever you're talking about. Most people probably don't fully grasp for the most part. Right. If you are an expert in something, then depending on the audience, like, obviously I can't go into, like a back end room and start talking about stuff. Stuff, because they'll probably know more. But for the most part, if you are almost like an SME for something, then you can kind of believe that most people are going to be learning something new. Maybe not everything, but parts of it. So that's how I. I think about it, is as long as I'm not saying anything terribly nonsensical, then people are going to get value out of it. So I may not feel very confident at all times, but I can believe that someone is going to take something away from it, and I lead with that and I kind of like focus on that. And then in the audience, really what I did. And Dennis, you were great because you were in there. So I would just find people in the audience that are happy. Right. And like, you. You anchor on Those people. And you try to stay away from anyone that looks distracted, bored, frustrated, because those are going to make you. At least those are going to make me feel like, oh, my God, I am boring them. I'm not saying anything. So as long as you can find those people and you can, like, kind of like bounce between them, it gives you that sense of like, yes, it's landing, People are getting it and you blank out everyone else.

I am so glad Nick was not there. I'm so.

I was gonna say, I've got some takeaways here. One, stop saying nonsensical things. Chat. I want to make a note of that because I think that's where I'm going wrong. And two, Dennis is a muse. He's basically a muse.

It's true.

He's a living, breathing muse.

Me in that meeting, because I was confused for some of it. I was like, this is way over my head. Like, just writing down notes.

Oh, there were people. I remember some people that were like this.

Yeah, I was definitely one of those at one point because I was like, I'm so confused how this all connects. But, like, it, like, at the end, it all made sense because, like, as you kept going, like, things were making more sense. But like, at first, like, I walked into this going sandboxes, I got what you do all this, like. Yeah, it was just one of those, like, you get to learn so much of, like, how everything is interconnected. And I think that's one of the things that, like, a lot of people are like. A lot of people may know that, like, outside of like, HubSpot, but, like, there's a lot of interconnectivity and a lot of, like, back and forth between everything. And it's kind of like when I told people this one time way back, like when people posted a developer Slack and they post, like, ideas and they're like, oh, the idea is just going to avoid. No, we could probably link that idea to like, seven threads on the internal Slack that we have where people are actively talking about these ideas and everything else. It's just we can't have the discussions out and open because it's your system stuff. It's like all sorts of things that work together. Like, like, ideas do come about in that way and, like, a lot of conversations happen. But it is that, like, being able to connect all the pieces and just deliver it in such a way that when everybody walks away, they have something to take with them. And like I said, like, that's the meeting that we had. Like, I walked Away with a way better understanding of where we were at with sandbox, what needs to go and what's to come. And it was just way more informational than, like, reading a wiki post on something.

Right?

Yeah, Right. Do you plan on doing any other. Or do you see, like, any other talks and stuff in your future? Is that something that you would continue to do as, like.

I mean, I think I need to. It's definitely something that I haven't really stretched myself into much, but it's something that I. I need to start doing more often because, you know, you. You tend to think that people, like I said, you know, like narrator people don't have the information. So you can give them, you can teach them, you can, like, you know, provide the context. And it's. As a pm, you end up being very, like, on your island sometimes, and so you don't get the opportunities to branch out. So that's definitely something that I have as a, you know, as a goal once we deliver what we're working on. But this was, like, one of the opportunities I was like, oh, these guys do Developers after Dark. It's always, like, so enjoyable and I always learn so much. So, yeah.

Research. Can you clip that? Okay. Just wanted to just do. Got a little bit of a collection. So one day when, you know, when I'm not useful anymore in ecosystem quality, I'll have something to fall back on. I'd be like, smile file. Is that what we're gonna call it? Is that a thing.

Initially?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's a thing you have to, like. Whenever someone gives you, like, something positive and you know you're having a. A shitty day, you can just grab your spotlight and be like, I'm awesome. Like, someone said this.

You know, that's right. I like that. Okay, I think we may have a title for this podcast. All right now on the web. Smile files.

Pod.com. like Nick Smile file.

I love it. I absolutely love it. I was gonna. One of the things I wanted to ask you. It's one of the questions I love to ask everybody just because of the variations in the answers. There's never. It's like a snowflake. You're never going to get the same one twice, essentially. But mentorship advice, because that's one of the things, especially, like, okay, being someone who's probably bombarded with changes throughout the entire ecosystem. Right. Or the entire product. What kind of advice have you been given throughout? And it could be throughout HubSpot. It can be throughout your career before, however, that's kind of really stuck out to you and that you kind of used as a, you know, a tool to help you, you know, just advance or to help you, like, deal with situations, Anything like that.

Yeah, Let me see. I have a few. Early in my career, I was. This is like I was at a startup, with startup meaning literally three people. And I was working with the director, with the owner of the company. And honestly, I was feeling like not really getting. I wasn't getting opportunities because this other person was like, for the most part, getting all of the cool things. And it started to grind at me. And so one day I'm like, how am I going to tell this person, my manager, right? I'm like, how am I going to tell her without sounding terrible that I hate it here and that I'm not getting anything fun to work on? And I don't know what exactly I said. I probably probably fumbled over my words, but I remember her saying to me, denise, at the end of the day, you need to build your own party. And I was like, wait, what do you mean I can build my. And she's like, don't wait for people to give things to you. Just come and grab them. Like, say what you need, say what you want to do. And then. And I was like, okay, she's giving me carte blanche, right? So, like, I'll just go ahead and start building my own party. So that's something that stuff stuck, like, you know, in, like in sandboxes, for example. Always getting that, no, we can't help you right now, became such a thing. That was so frustrating. It's really hard because as a pm, you have a whole team that is waiting on you to give them stuff to work on, and you want to give them interesting things. But if the, if there's always that no. And you're being blocked, then there comes a moment where you need to sort of like, rise above things and. And really grab the bull by their. By its horns, right? And so it. I. I think. I don't think that maybe I thought about that lesson at the time, but I think it stuck with me where it's like, you need to own your own destiny and your own story. And so after a while where I was like, the team is not getting what it needs. I took it upon myself to partner up with my TL at the time. And we positioned why we needed to work on the framework stuff in addition to sandboxes. And that's what sort of like unblocked everything for us to, you know, start really like working deeply on this complex project. And it was really like remembering that you are the owner of your own story and your journey. And so if that means that you need to go speak to people that you would normally not speak to, then it's something that you're going to have to just, you know, get over that fear and just dive right in. And I think that would be probably one that stuck with me.

Yeah, that's good. That's a good one. I do. I like that because you, I mean, you have to at a certain point, right? Because I mean, at first you said, you know, make your own party. And for some reason I thought, well, okay, I can get margaritas, I can go do my own thing. I don't need this.

But with Dungeons and Dragons style, it's like, who's going to be the cleric, who's going to be the wizard, who's going to be the.

That's fair, that's fair. That's a good one too. I like that. But no, it's. Yeah, no, it is. It is one of those things where there is a bit of, kind of, kind of have to, like, there's a, there's a self push, right. To start. Because I don't know, everybody probably gets caught in that kind of trap where they're like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to rock the boat. But like, if you want to, if you want to get stuff moving. Being like kind of a self motivator in that and starting your own party in that sense. No, I think that's, that's why I love asking that question.

Yeah. And if, if you don't, if you can't start the party for whatever reason, then maybe there's no party to be had. Right. And that's also a message for you then it's like a data point that you can be like, okay, right, so what am I going to do with this now? But I feel like most of the times there is always an opportunity for a little party. So, yeah, it's just you got to find the little pathways to achieve.

Find that shot glass.

Was it Jimmy Buffett? It's five o' clock somewhere.

Right. With having such a position where there is multiple things to kind of keep track of and things are like, obviously, if everyone doesn't realize it by now, ever changing, right within the ecosystem itself and just within products alone in the HubSpot world, what are some of the things that you do to try to kind of take yourself out of the element? And what I Mean by that is, you know, everybody has people that we've talked to. You know, they have some pretty interesting hobbies, whether that's just rock climbing or. I think it wasn't. It wasn't a bj, Right. That had, like. He was. He did rock climbing and stuff. And that was his, like.

Dancing.

Swing dancing.

Swing. Yeah, swing dancing.

Swing dancing.

I thought it was knives. We knew that.

I thought he did. Oh, yeah. Then the. Chris. Chris. It's kind of with the Dexter knife, but. Yeah. No. What. What kind of things do you do that kind of, like, take you out of that? Because it's got. It's got to be stressful. I mean, like, I'm sitting here from a position of, like, you know, code checking and things like that, where it's not. There's some things you have to be kind of kept on top of as far as, like, what's changing that, but not within the entire system.

I thought you said code checking, by the way, not code checking.

I mean, I wish I was code checking. That would be so much more easier than the code checking. Sure. If I just took a slip and said, okay, you're. You know, your members only jacket will be over here in the corner. Like, I. Yeah, but not the question. Sorry. But, like, what do you do? Yeah, what do you do to, like, kind of unwind and get out of that? It's. Because it's got to be hectic.

You know, I love ideas, and maybe I should. It's. This year has been definitely an outlier year, for sure, because I was literally talking. Talking to some people on my team. They were like, oh, it's fitness reimbursement. And I was like, fitness? What's that? Because I've not done any this year. I've done a few, but I started. I have always been kind of like, I'm an information junkie. It's a thing. I will get really curious about something, and I'll be like, I need to learn everything about it, and I'll go really deep into it. And then I'd be like, oh, my gosh, it's three in the morning, and why am I still reading random stuff? But I have started doing baking. So I've gotten into baking. That's something that is maybe not good, because if you're not working out and you're eating a lot of sugar, it's probably not great. But it gives me an opportunity to be busy with something other than work. And I think the other one is really just if I'm interested in a topic really dive into can be a range of things. I'm really into organizational psychology, like a lot of, you know, human psychology, how, you know, why people do the things they do and how they think from the business perspective as well. So I'll read a lot about that. Like, I. I indulge in information recently with the dreaded AI and my chatgpt and me and my. Me and my chatgpt have become really close and it's. It's like terrible because literally I'll be like, you know, asking questions and learning so much. So, yeah, I'd say baking, I do a little bit of running has always been my go to for de stressing. I have not done running this year though, so that's on me. But it would be running, swimming. I like visiting my family in the Caribbean and I basically spend as much time as I can swimming and snorkeling. It's my favorite. And yeah, baking and running and reading.

Just out of curiosity, because I'm such a huge fan of flying, how long of a flight is that that you.

Have to take from Boston? I think it's just under five hours.

Okay.

Yeah, I can totally do that.

Yeah. I mean we're in the Illinois region here, so that's probably.

You could probably take the Mississippi down.

I could, yeah, I could just. I could just buy a canoe and then just let. Let the waves take me where they take me. I mean, yeah, I could get. Stop in Louisiana on the way out, but. Yeah, no, I know. I just, I was just so curious because I mean, travel is one of the things like. And. And here's a weird thing too. Like, I like travel. I really do. Like, I like. But like, I just. I just don't like getting there.

You don't like the. You mean, do you. You don't like the piece where you need to travel or.

I'm not a. I'm not big on flying. Like when I've gone to Boston for inbound twice, I've drove both times from Illinois.

Yeah, some people just don't like flying. I have. It's the only way I. I can get to my family. Right. So I, I lived in Europe for like 20 years and so it was like. That was terrible. That's like 12 hours, sometimes 24 hours back to back, door to door. So. Yeah, this is nothing. You can do it.

Yeah, you can do this.

You can do.

12 hours would be nightmare fuel for me. I don't know about that. That's. Yeah, that's a little.

You just sleep. You just sleep on A plate most of the time. That's what I do.

I mean, that's true. That's true.

Yes.

No, I believe that. Are there any, are there any things that you plan on doing in the future as far as like. Because I know there's with, with sandboxes and things like that. Are there any like conferences that you know of that are coming up or anything like that that you kind of, maybe even use as sort of a. A way to keep on top of things? Because like, keeping on top of things in HubSpot, obviously for hubspotters is a lot easier than like what's kind of going on like in the world around you with. Related to what you do is, you know, are there conferences or are there newsletters that you kind of subscribe to or are there any kind of resources that you use? I.

It's probably not very groundbreaking, but I'd say Lenny's. Lenny's podcasts is one that I typically engage with when I'm trying to, you know, learn about how others do it. There's some really good ones about PMING in big companies like Autation and you know, that I had a really good one with. They were talking about how to work remotely because that entire company is fully remote. So, you know, I tend to leverage that. The other place where honestly I get my information these days is really like LinkedIn. There's a lot of really solid PMs that have good resources that they share, frameworks that they talk about. I'd say those are the places where I usually get information. But my approach to information and learning really is very intentional. What is it? That is a gap that I need to learn and fill. And then I search a lot on things like YouTube or people that are SMEs in those topic. I engage a lot with Harvard Business Review for anything organizational and you know, psychology, soft skill type, those type of content. That's a lot of. That's really my go to, I would say is Harvard Business Review has been one of the constant ones. And. And then yeah, it's anywhere my, you know, my interest lies at the moment. So in this case, like baking is one of them. So I'll be like, you know, let me find all of the things. And my Pinterest has all of these recipes that I'll probably never bake because I'll only perfect my chocolate cake. But yeah, it's just based on my curiosity at the time. But there are some that are like the usual. YouTube is a great place for a wealth of information. So I Do a lot of that. And I've also gotten really into podcasts related to neurodiversity recently. Just like learn a little bit more about me and rediscover some things. So I would say that there's like some really good ones out there as well.

On Spotify, Chris Riley is a great pleasure to talk to about that, to get a lot of resources because I know he's really into that. And we, when we talked to him on here as well, like just some of the stuff and some of the things he was bringing up as far as like the resources and the things that he was. It was absolutely fantastic. But I wanted to say I think also too, the, that hyperfocus, that's a superpower as well that I think some people are kind of mistake for just kind of like madness at times, right? But yeah, no, I truly do believe that like getting that hyper focused into something and being able to like. Because I'm, I'm that same type of way in certain aspects where it's just like if I'm, I'm learning about something, it's like I, I need to know all the things I have to do. All the, like, you know what I mean? Like, if it's a, if it's a hobby, it's like we'll have to like, for example, like if it was soccer, well, I have to have the full. I have to have the full kit. I thought to get up, I have to do the whole thing. I have to have the. So it's like I get really, really intense into that stuff and I know it drives people crazy, but like, I totally get you.

I, I got into, I signed up for a marathon at this stage, it's probably 10 years ago. And I got so into learning about the muscles and like how they work that I was like this, the. What are they called? Like, the fine. The fine muscles are really necessary for that long haul run. And like I need to. So I'd be going on my runs and I'd be like, I'm practicing those fine muscles right now on my knees. And like nothing worked at the end of the day because the math was a disaster. But I had a master's in in, you know, the body and how it works during marathon. So yeah, it's like, it's those. I would say, like I've probably a very big library of temporary master's degree that I probably had from deep diving into random stuff a lot. Hemopsychology, like micro expressions, like, oh my gosh, like, ooh, that person Just had a little tiny twitch in their eyes. I must, you know, it's like, yeah, it's, it's. It's nuts. It is madness.

So basically, don't try to lie in front of Denise because she'll be able to tell right away. Like, she has that complete. Yeah, okay. New yourself. Making notes, wear full mask while around me, don't try to tell her that it's gonna. The project's gonna be just a little bit late because I got this one thing. Can't lie. Can't lie.

Next meeting we're in, I'm gonna walk in one of those, like horse head masks and just sit down.

No expression. Don't you psychoanalyze me. I was gonna ask you with. With respect to like, the sandboxes and stuff, is there a. And sometimes there isn't. Sometimes there isn't. But is there like a. A common myth about, like, working in that particular realm of HubSpot at all?

What do you mean?

Like, for example, like, with, like, with ecosystem quality, there's like one of the biggest things is it's like, well, all you do is you just review code all day. And that's not technically true. While that does play a factor into it, like, that is probably when I try to describe it to people, basically what I'm going to say is, like, when you try to describe it to people, like, outside of HubSpot, like, and tell. When you try to tell them what you do. Did. Is it. Do you get any kind of like. Because that's what I get. I'm like, well, we do. I'm an ecosystem quality for HubSpot. And they're like, oh, you check code? And I was like, well, I'm like, yes, sort of. But there's more. Do you get that when you tell people.

Yeah, I'd say the one that is interestingly within and outside of HubSpot is that, oh, it's just, you know, a full copy, right? Like, gives you all the things. And it's like, no, not really. Doesn't give you all the things yet. You know, and it's like, I'd say that that that's one that has been a big one, product wise. The other one is maybe that, you know, it's. It's such an infra heavy product that people maybe don't. Some people do. Like, especially when you talk to, like a developer, they will be like, oh, my gosh, you're delivering this thing. I know that was a lot. Thank you. But if you're talking. So, like, if you're talking to a developer that really has that, you know, systems thinking mindset and that big picture and dependencies. Like you, you guys can just like quickly, like, you know, you look at a code and you know exactly where to look for dependencies and like how the tree looks. But if you're talking to someone who doesn't have that mindset, then it becomes really daunting to like, help them explain why something isn't there yet. Right. And so they may think that it's just like a plug and play type of thing, but they don't realize that there's a whole framework that needs to support it. So I think that's the part where there's that misconception where they're like, why isn't it there yet? And it's like, well, if you don't have the thing, then you know, you can't do the thing. So once you explain it to them, then they obviously get it. And there's, I think a lot of. Across the industry you have different companies have their sandboxes, all are at different stages of their life cycle. Some of them are years old, like 20 years old. So obviously they've started just like where we are. But our users don't know all of that, right? So they're like, I don't care that one had it. Why don't you have it yet? And you're like, yeah, but before they got there, they had to do this entire thing, which is what we are, the journey we're on. So there's a lot of that constant having to like do that enablement piece with our users to help them understand it doesn't make take away maybe their perception, but at least it gives them the context as to the why. And I think once you tell people why, they're much more able to, you know, be more empathetic to and also appreciative of whatever you are delivering.

So. Right, yeah, yeah, absolutely fair. I know we're running up on time and I appreciate you taking the time to come and talk with us. Dennis, aj Was there anything else that you had for questions and stuff? Because, I mean, we could talk forever. And I always feel bad because it's like these things could run three, four hours easily. But at the end of the day, I've got people like. And I, and I appreciate like, like Isaac with the feedback. He's like, you guys, at the beginning, you're running a bit long. And I was like.

Seriously d. And I could like talk about 80s movie actually, you know, Nick, you, you probably be into this as well, because we were talking about kids movies like we watched when we were younger that are important to us. That was like, we could probably talk for another three hours on that of the Ewoks.

Nobody. Nobody ever remembers that movie. Do you guys remember that one? Yeah, it was part of the Star wars, like, universe, and it was just. It was like a. A brother and sister, they get lost and they, like, find the Ewoks and like. Yeah, I'm like. It was like, a little short.

Like, I remember that.

Great.

Never Ending Story. There's a bunch of them. Last Starfighter, there's Toddler.

I was going to.

What's the one with David Bowie? Is it Dark Crystal or something?

Elaborate Labyrinth.

Although Dark Crystal is great. Great as well.

So, yeah.

Yeah, I was actually thinking about one today, but I can't remember now. I was like, maybe when she's a bit older, this one might be good. But I need to go back. It was in the morning. I was like, oh, I should tell.

Dennis we have a canvas in our slack DM to pull movies that my daughter should watch.

Oh, my God, send me that canvas because I need to. I need to get my kids watching some other movies because right now it's just K Pop. Demon hunter, like, 24 7.

Yeah. Damn. I got it. Yeah, same thing. I was like, it's fantastic.

And I. I don't like K Pop, but, like, the soundtrack is catchy, yet it's great.

The Ice Cream song, right? Is that the one? Is that what I'm thinking? Right?

Which one?

Soda Pop. Is it soda pop or ice cream? Yeah. Okay, there we go.

They're fantastic. But now my apple music is ruined, and now I'm feeling. Well, it feels like when I ruined her playlist, and I'm like, I get it now.

This is frustrating. I downloaded it on purpose for them because, like, they kept watching it on Netflix and I kept ruining my queue, and I was just like, I can't have this anymore. I'll just. I'll just get you it and then you can watch it on the movie server.

Cut that part out. And if we probably shouldn't talk about you illegally downloading Netflix.

Oh. I mean, at this point, Comcast knows. They know already. They're not that big of a deal. I mean, Starlink. Never mind. Yeah, just insert the one I don't have in there. That's it. There you go.

There you go.

There you go. But no, I, I. Denise, I wanted to say thank you for coming along and talking with us, because it's been fantastic. And like we say like these are the type of conversations that we love to have because there's this mix of technical and then there's the human side of it. And we say tell the developer story. But developer has such a broad meaning nowadays, right? Like anybody who opens up cursor and asks it, what are you doing? Like they're now a developer, right? In a certain sense. But no, these are the type of things where it's like it's hugely beneficial. And I guarantee if anybody watches this and doesn't know what a sandbox is after this than they were sleeping while they were. They weren't actually watching because they should know 100% what it is after this. Which I appreciate too because like, you know, you get like certain, you have like certain, like a certain idea of something, especially if it's not something that you work in normally, right? But to actually get the full scope of it is, it's, it's a, it's a treat for me at least. I love it.

Can I just say one thing? You made me think about something that is probably the biggest misconception is what you said there. The term developer has such a broad meaning really. But a lot of people tend to think about it as developer. You're just an engineer, but really you're a builder. And the way you build can differ. You can be code based builder or you can be a point and click builder. In the current state of sandboxes, we cater to that point and click builder. The developer can also, especially if you're thinking CRM customization and they can use the CLI and they can be. Or cms, all of that. Yes, but the term developer people tend to think about it very much in a tunnel perspective. And so when I say no, if a sandbox, for example, in the competitive landscape there can be different versions of sandboxes. You can have a full copy sandbox, you can have a lightweight copy. And that lightweight copy they tend to call it development, right? It's like a developer sandbox. But it's not because the user is a developer necessarily, it's just where you go and you like build your proof of concept, your early poc and then when you're ready you'd move it to the big sandbox. But development is literally builder and how you build may differ. And so I think that's the thing. You can be someone who's very technically inclined or you can be someone who's very systems inclined and thinks about the features or function, the ui, like UI based versus code based. So I'd say that that's been one of the betas. It's like no, sandboxes isn't just for this type, it's for both. And so how you build will depend on who you're catering to.

Agreed.

I know we were wrapping up, but you just.

That's a great answer though. That's. That's exactly what like, that's, that just helps kind of show how the, like the landscape just in general is kind of changing rapidly. Right, right throughout. Because even the definition of who's using it or what they like or how they're using it is now being iterated as it's being improved. So no, I think that's absolutely fantastic. But again, I wanted to thank you for coming on because like that, those type of answers, these questions, these conversations, that's what this is all about and we absolutely love it. And again, anyone who's watched, do not forget to single click like so you can double click into our hearts. And do not forget to subscribe to the HubSpot YouTube channel because you will get alerted for stuff like this and other great content. Denise, thank you for joining us. Dennis, A.J. of course. Thank you again for making this humanly possible. Without them, this isn't possible. I'm just talking head over here and they, they do all the work basically, so. And then of course, thanks again to our sponsor, HubSpot Sandboxes. The only sand you can play in without needing a shower afterwards.

Wow, you're on fire with these. Denise, hire this guy.

I'm the hype man. That's basically what it is.

We're going to be changing our UI right after this to have that captured, so please do. Thank you guys for having me. It was fun.

Awesome. Thank you.