Ep. 31 - SEO in the AI World (Part 2) with Michelle Jensen | Developers:After Dark

Way to go, way to break. Well, this is why it heard real.

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Yeah, that's exactly what happened. I know it is. Okay. Hello everyone. Welcome to Developers After Dark. We have a great episode coming up right now for you. We're going to be talking about again AI and SEO in the AI world. It's something that we're starting to do these where we want to not just create like one offs but like have sort of like in depth conversations with multiple people about like particular subjects. And this one in particular is one that affects everybody right now, especially with the, the way AI is advancing and the way that we have like such a rapid, rapid change in both the technologies and the way things are implemented. These are, these type of conversations are the ones we love to have. And we will get to our guests in just a second. But before we do that, let me pay just a couple of bills real quickly. Of course. Everybody knows and did I just freeze? No, I did a little bit. Everybody knows that this is exactly the place you want to go is devs@darkpod.com where you can see the previous episodes. You can read a little bit about what the show is about if this is the first time you've ever seen it. And if you want to get some really, really good information you want to go to at HubSpot developers, our YouTube channel has everything you're going to need to know, especially now that we are at the time of recording this. Inbound just ended last week for all hubspotters. There is so much information on there that you're going to want to see. It's a lot of roundups, a lot of kind of summaries of everything that kind of went on there and anything that they talked about, new technologies, anything like that, new products, updates, upgrades, everything you want to know is going to be there as well. And then a special shout out too to nbound studio on YouTube because you'll be able to watch because we're talking about AI today. You to the power of AI. Dharmesh did a really good talk about that and it pretty much covers quite a bit of information and, and the way it's delivered. And our CEO has a really great like way of just delivering everything right. So Dharmesh is really fantastic at that. So go take a look at that too. And that's at Inbound Studios, that YouTube channel as well. You'll be able to watch that entire video as well as kind of summaries of everything that went on at Inbound, other speakers and things like that so if you want to too, if you want to know what's going on in the developer world, you're going to go to developers HubSpot changelog, that is developers.HubSpot.com changelog twice for Dennis since he's not here today. But you're going to be able to find out what's going on in the development community, not just now, but in the future as well. So go take a look at that subscribe as well and you'll be able to get the information sent to you as it happens. So that's another thing you're going to want to do as well. And then finally, but last but not least, if you Want to learn academy.HubSpot.com that's the place you're going to want to go. Because you would get certifications and all types of things from, you know, sales, you got social media marketing as well as content marketing, everything, right? There's, there's SEO ones in there. I've taken those as well myself and they're really, really fantastic. And I always say, just because a special place in my heart for the marketplace at HubSpot, especially on the template side, those who are providers there that make themes and modules, if you get these certifications, they will also be able to maybe end up on your listing pages as well for your themes and your modules. So you get to a little bit of a humble brag there as well. But with all that aside and getting all that out of the way, let me let our guest introduce herself. Why don't you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

Sure. My name is Michelle Jensen. I run a blog called Travel Her Story and I'm also an SEO content writer for the last company I worked for was aaa.

Excellent. Now it's very fitting that you're on because again this with, with everything as far as the. Well, we were calling it like the SEO in the AI world I imagine and this is just a guess, but the travel industry and travel alone is probably something that's been majorly affected by what they like to call. I used to call it rank zero but now it's like the zero click rank results of things when people are searching. Especially in the travel industry. Right?

Yeah, 100%. There was, there was a bad month this summer where, where they turned on AI overviews for Europe is what I was told. That tanked about half my traffic to my blog and because of things like, you know, googling things to do in Rome and there's just a list up top Rather than having to click into anybody's website, whether it was me or TripAdvisor or whoever. So yeah, Definite has manipulated income and traffic for, for people like me because.

I believe they were saying there was some estimates what was up to like on average, like what was a 60 to 70% just of clicks in general. Like when people would search and the, the AI kind of snippet, I call it, like position zero would show up. It like eliminated at least 60. I think it was. What was it? It was like 65 or something. Percent of the CL clicks to go in there. I. And that had to have been. Yeah, I can't even imagine looking at Google Analytics or what an analytics like that people would use for their sites. And just that day, just what. It's very, very impactful. Before we get into like the real nitty gritty of this, I wanted to ask like, what, as far as like with travel and then with the content writing, like, what kind of sparked your interest in, in all of that at the very beginning?

So years ago I, I used to, I worked in TV for 11 years, maybe longer, something like that. And I used to build websites back when I was a teenager. I learned how to code on neopets, if anybody remembers what neopets are. But I started building websites when I was a teenager and then when I was becoming an adult, I went and worked in tv. But I had a job that I had a lot of spare time and, and I used to travel in between doing shows and people would ask me like, oh, what's your, you know, can you send me your itinerary? And I got tired of emailing it. So I was like, I'll just build a website for this thing. So kind of married the, you know, my, my teenage hobby with, you know, a passion of mine and build a website. But I kind of didn't know jack about SEO or anything. I just kind of put it on the Internet. I was like, somebody will find this. And did that for years and years and years and never made a dime off that thing. And then I went up, leaving my tech job a couple years ago and was doing a networking thing and somebody did like photography, travel. So basically took a bunch of photographers, like to Safari or something like that and they do a trip together. And he's like, well, why don't you at least make what you're spending on this thing? And I was like, okay, I, I can try. I don't know what I'm doing. And I went up, just kind of like diving into the world of SEO like I had never had before. And actually learning what I was doing, which was like a marvel to me still is actually at the sometimes and actually went up making money off my blog. So it was just great. And that's how I, my main source of income now is my travel blog. So and that's actually how I got my AAA job as well as they saw my travel blog and were like, oh, actually she knows what she's doing. And so it was really, you know, a good pat on the back to myself.

So that's awesome. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, go ahead.

I was gonna say like that's got to be just an amazing feeling to know that like somebody like saw what you were doing was like, yeah, come aboard.

Like that's awesome.

That's so cool.

Yeah, no, for sure. I, I did not apply to them. I just got this random message that was like, hey, do you want to apply for this job? And I was like, I know who AAA is. Yeah, of course.

So that's the best one they find you especially. Yeah, no, I love that does the jumping back into that SEO world because I, I, for me I did that like once or twice myself depending on the job that I went to. Like do you. And I guess that's one of those questions is like do you love or do you hate the fact that it's always a constant because there's people on both sides of it. But like that SEO is such a constant. I always think of it as a never ending chess battle. That's the way I once described it to somebody. I don't know if that's the best one, but because it is always, there's always pieces moving and it's never a game that's like over. There's always like, oh, like especially with like the introduction of AI, it's almost kind of reset itself with a certain aspect. But do you, are you on, are you on the team of like it's, it can be frustrating or is it like something that, because it's such an ever changing thing that is that actually like something that you love about it?

I actually like it about it because a lot of people when I tell them on Travel Blogger, they're like, oh, you must have a big TikTok or something. And I'm like, no, because the difference between like SEO and blogging versus like social media in general, to me, other than maybe like a Pinterest, which is more SEO based is the fact that like on social media, like if you don't have capture the attention that point you know, for half a second or whatever.

Right.

Nobody's watching your video versus a any and then it just goes in the ether and it, you know, dies off. Right. Versus a blog. All those posts that I had written for the like 11, 12 years before when I started, when I like actually learned SEO, I rewrote all of them with my actual knowledge and was able to get them ranking right. It wasn't just dead homework that I had done versus a post where you're like, like I said, you like doesn't do well. I guess you can re edit it and re upload it, but how many people are doing that? You know, so I kind of like that SEO, yeah, the rules do change, obviously, especially in the world of AI, but at least it's, it's homework that I can go and try to re edit to get a better grade, you know, to kind of use that funky analogy of, you know, because yeah, there was like stuff I wrote years ago for Paris. I haven't been to Paris since I was, you know, graduated college. But I went and re edited that post and I had the number one spot for a while, you know, so at least, yeah to your, to your analogy, like at least it's a chess game I can learn from and like do better at. Now you mentioned that's what I like.

You mentioned that the people asking you about TikTok, like is that, is that one of the biggest like common myths about like writing, you know, like informational blogs and like content writing, is that everyone just assumes that it's like your social media poster.

Yeah, I think a lot of people just assume, yeah, that you have TikTok or a big Instagram and whatever because this summer I went to Europe for four and a half months and I got some sponsored stays. And I think a lot of people are just like, oh well, she must have like a hundred thousand TikTok dollars or something. And I'm like, no, I have a blog that gets tens of thousands of views, but I don't have some Tick Tock or anything like that. And, and for me, like, I'm sure if you have like a million followers on Tick Tock, you're probably making good money. But for me, again, to the point of like an Instagram post or a Tick Tock post, you post unless it goes super viral, it what, dies off in three days.

Right, right.

For me, I have some posts that have been the number one spot for like a year now that are still making me money through ads and affiliates. So yeah, maybe it's not as, like, you know, flashy as having a lot of TikTok followers. But I'm funding my travels and that's all that matters to me.

And I think that's what people don't really realize. Like, people think like influencer, or they think like travel blogger and they just think like, oh, you guys just ask for freebies and you hand her, like, if you actually have a business like mind and you put a strategy behind it, it actually is very interesting to see just everything that you get involved with because we have a good friend that also does that kind of stuff. And just, it's crazy to see like, the level of detail when you really get like, basically when you come at it from a business stance, it's so different than like the typical person who just records themselves to record themselves kind of a thing. So, yeah, it's definitely an interesting thing.

Do you.

Do you see it more rewarding in doing it that way as like applying like a business strategy to what you're doing? Do you. Do you find that to be, I guess, more successful in a way versus just like, oh, I went to like a really nice country. I'm just gonna write about it real quick. Like, what is your process? I guess is the. Is the work about question I'm getting to?

Yeah. So I usually try to go from the standpoint of like, what was helpful to me or what did I learn from it. For instance, I went to Switzer, Ireland, and I tried to go see the Matterhorn. I went in April. Apparently it's a very terrible time to go see the Matterhorn because I went all the way up, paid about a hundred dollars to get on the train to go to the top and saw nothing because there was a blizzard. There was supposed to be 29 peaks up there, including the Matterhorn. I saw nothing. So that's something I could, you know, I took videos and photos of things that I couldn't see. But my post is going to be, hey, here's how I did it. Here's how you shouldn't do it, because I didn't succeed at it. So, yeah, so from a business standpoint, it's always, for me, it's like, what's going to be helpful to somebody trying to do this thing too? You know, and that's kind of like why I, like, sometimes if it goes a little bit wrong, obviously I would have liked to see the Matterhorn. I joked people, I've spent less going to Disneyland and seeing the Matterhorn, but. But at least that's something I can tell people Is like, hey, you know, don't go in April, you know, so that's always kind of my thing is, like, is looking at, you know, how. How am I people?

I was gonna ask you too. Like, and, and kind of piggybacking off of what AJ was talking about, like, is another. As another myth.

The.

I'm trying to think, like, do people not realize? And I know it's, I know it's a lot of work, but I, I have this feeling, like, is another common myth that it's just like, oh, I'm just gonna put this thing together because I, I, I traveled here or I'm gonna. And even if you, even, even if there was a social media post element, let's say there was a TikTok or something like that, but, like, do people not realize? Because I'm just going to guess that it is a lot of hard work, because I pretty much know it is. But do you get a lot of people that don't understand that and just think it's like, oh, you're just, you're just writing about this or that, and it's just like, oh, it's just probably, you know, because people. I have this feeling, like, people don't really understand it because, again, that's like one of those things that if you're not, if you don't, if you don't attempt it, you don't really understand the amount of effort that has to be put into it to make it good. I mean, you can make something, but it's not going to be good. Right. Do you get people that don't understand the amount of energy and work that has to go into that?

Yeah, I think some people, and I've seen some bloggers, kind of like early bloggers, kind of get confused that they think it's like an Instagram post. And I'm like, no, you need to be, like, a lot more in depth than, like, the hundred characters or whatever you're writing here. Yeah, people, People, like, don't quite get it until they do it. I have a friend of mine that this summer really want to get in travel blogging. So I was kind of helping her out. And I, like, I didn't even realize how much knowledge I had in my brain until she was asking me questions that were, like, so simple to me now, which I'm sure was challenging at the time, but, like, simple things about, like, even tech stuff of like, you know, your plugins update and maybe something goes wrong and what to do about that and, you know, and that stuff like Just general writing you're not going to think of, but you are running your own business. You have to make sure your, your website isn't crashing or whatever because some plot, plugin conflict or whatever. Or even just writing for you, how much content to write. You know, if you're just like writing a terror and every line is like, did this today and then eight here and then did this like it. That's just a list. That's not enough. You know, so you have to kind of look at Google and see what they want. You know, is. What I usually do is like, what's in the top couple spots? What do they want? Do they want a map? Do they want this in a list? Do they want this as, you know, some kind of like, diary entry kind of looking thing? Um, yeah. So I. Yeah, people don't. Yeah, they. A lot of times I think they think it's like an Instagram catch caption and that's understandable.

Like not having the knowledge on something is. I mean, the assumption. Sure, people can make it, but yeah, there's. I kind of did the same thing with like doing podcasts myself. That's why I was, I was, I was interested because I had that same mindset where it's just like I just stand in front of a microphone and. Or sit in front of a microphone and just talk. And how hard could this be? Not thinking? Like, well, they actually have to do research. You know, it would. That'd be like, you know, like, like I was having this conversation now. And me never seeing your website before, like, just did not even. You know what I mean? Like, and, and I have, I have, I've looked at the website, not that I'm making a point of that, but, like, that is like one of those things where it was like, I, I get where people can get in that mindset, but, like, there's probably a lot more to it than people really, really understand with. Which is kind of one of the things I wanted to talk and, and here's which. I kind of want to try to segue this the best way I can here, because I also think too, when it comes to, like, AI, as far as, like, not just the SEO aspect, but the content writing that you're in a vertical. And correct me if I'm wrong, this is just kind of what I, I kind of. I'm thinking in my mind. But you're in a vertical where that's like you. You can get AI to write something, but it will never experience something the way a human being does. Right? So, like, when you write some of the stuff, like, like one of the ones that I really like on your site is like, no secret, me and AJ are Italian. So about Italy and traveling and like, the things to do and like, you know, in three days and like, how to prepare for the travels and stuff like that, you could get maybe an AI to write something similar. I wouldn't even say similar. That's, that's, that's slightly disrespectful. Not similar, but could write something. But it's never going to have, like, that feeling and that experience that you bring to the table is there when you see that kind of stuff, like, how, how does that. I don't know if there's a way to combat that. But, like, do you start to see that with some of the other. And it may not be in travel, but do you start to see that with some of the other content writing that you might come across where you can just. Where you're like, okay, I get what you tried there, but there's no, there's no human element behind it.

Yeah, no, I mean, there's definitely people who are doing that. And I mean, I've seen people who are, you know, posting that. The number one ranking slot. I know a girl, she does, like, family travel, so she does, like a lot of Disney stuff and whatnot. And, and she was saying the number one ranking for her keyword she was targeting was like, they didn't even spell the park's names correctly. Which makes me feel like AI probably wrote it so. Because I feel like if you're, you know, a Disney family blogger, you probably know how to spell, like, Magic Kingdom. I'm just guessing, so. But yeah, no, there's, there's definitely. I always try to add that human element because even before AI, like, you know, that's. We were always told to, like, put something different in your post, like putting. You know, if Google wants a list, you should probably do a list, but make sure you put something of you in it, you know? And the best I can, like, example I can give of that is I went to Belize in December and I did the ATM cave there, which is like, where Mayan sacrifices happen, and they let you climb up into the cave. And I was. It was very Indiana Jonesy, which I love, but I also am, like, kind of a wimp. So I, I wavered between, this is awesome, I'm terrified. And that's basically how I wrote the post is like, this is my experience. I was terrified, but also fascinated to kind of get let People know what they're in for because they don't let you bring in your phones because people have dropped cameras on some of the artifacts and broken, you know, that was in 2000 year old Maya skulls and things like that. So I had no ability to rely on photos of them. What they gave me, which is the same photos that are on the Internet everywhere because it's on their website and that post is actually on my first page and I think because I put so much of this is what I felt about this experience in there and then AI cannot write that. Could it mimic it? Be like she was scared? Sure. But they're not going to be able to tell you I saw a snake. I'm terrified of snakes. I made an Indiana Jones joke. You know, I put my little wit and whimsy in it that like hopefully somebody reading it and you know, hopefully they're old enough to remember all the Indiana Jones stuff but gets like all like the experience through my eyes. Which yeah, AI can't do. But yeah, I'm, I'm positive there's, you know and you know, not to knock everybody but like I've used AI for outlines and stuff like that. But yeah, I do then go in and be like, hey, I felt this about this or I like this or this didn't work. So here's how I would do it differently. You know, AI is not going to, you know, I was in Santorini, my mom had just had knee surgery. There was stuff, certain stuff we didn't do in Santorini. Because of that. That's something about me that AI is not gonna, unless I purposely ask is this good for people with, you know, disability? It's probably not going to give it to me, right?

Yeah, I think if it's. I used as a tool to help enhance versus just to like cheaply create. Because I, I mean even before, you know, because like I, I honestly like, I. It's not that I don't like travel, I'm just terrified of heights. So that kind of like puts me in a category where I'm like, I love. I said like, even though even the imagery on your site for like Italy, I was like, love it, love it. I know this one over here next to me has been to Italy. I've not. But you can like, even when you're reading stuff. Before AI, I would completely be turned off the minute I was reading something and I was like, this feels so. Because like before AI wrote stuff it was people, but people writing it from an SEO perspective. And it was very, you could tell they were trying to, like, it was almost writing it SEO robotic, if that's even a term.

Yeah.

I mean. And you could tell that. And I think now, if. I think now more than ever, like, you're saying with. With this. With, you know, spelling mistakes where it's like, if you're not spelling the thing correctly that you're writing about, we have a problem here. I think that it's. It's just another version of that. But I. I don't. I. I would still be as kind of. I'm good, thanks. I know I'm not reading something like the. I think that real element there is the thing that it really distinguishes really, really good writing like yours versus, like, I'm just gonna ask somebody to write some stuff so I can make a really popular website real quick. Because, like you said, you don't get that element. And I. I really do appreciate that kind of stuff. So I. I just want to say that we. We really appreciate that as well as a writer. Thank you. Because it's like. I know.

You're welcome.

No one wants to read that, honestly. The other.

I can honestly tell you, like, from. I mean, and this was. It was probably. Oh, my God. It was like 12 years ago that I went to Italy. But it was one of those things where it was like, you know, reading now, like, the different things that I've read because, like, you know, I have kids now, and they'll ask, like, oh, well, you know, what was it like being over there? And I'm like, I tried to show them I'm sangiomano. The streets. Right. Like, just. Everything's just this beautiful brick. It's just gorgeous that you don't drive cars on. You just walk. I. I hope it was Sanjimano. Now. I'm thinking about it, but I haven't been.

But it sounds correct for me from what I remember.

Absolutely beautiful. But it's one of those things where, like, everything I've. Like, the pictures I was showing them just doesn't do it justice as to, like, the way I can explain it of, like, the atmosphere, the. The smell of the air, the things that people don't think about when you see these general, like, top five places to visit and you're like, oh, yeah, that. That would be cool. But, like, it's just so different when you're actually there and you experience it. So the fact that you're able to write from that experience and that you're not just, you know, creating random bits of content to, like, fluff out, like. Yeah. That's, that's honestly where the heart of it all is. And like Nick said, like, thank you for writing things like that. Because it's things like that that I can read where I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what it was like, you know.

Yeah, no, I agree. Because yeah, the, the top 10 lists off a trip revisor or whatever, yeah, it's gonna be a list. But like, that's not giving you a vibe, you know, when you're planning like.

The, the content to write, when you're trying to think through from an SEO perspective, like, how are you doing the research of what people will search for? Because I know a lot of times when I'm writing, I'm like, what would people search to find this? Like, how do you do your research? That's, that's where I've found like Claude and stuff to be helpful is giving out theoretics and like, hey, what, you know, what would you search for? Or like, you know, how would. So like explain like I'm five kind of a thing to grab terminologies.

Yeah. So there's two paths I kind of go down. I use a tool called KeySearch and I'll punch in, you know, like three days in Rome or whatever and see what kind of the. What's ranking and how difficult it is. And that the, the they kind of guess at their search volume. Sometimes it's is wrong, sometimes it's low, sometimes it's high. But it kind of gives me some idea is somebody searching for this or not? I also will think of like, what was helpful to me. So like, I just wrote a post on like how to travel the Greek islands, because that was one thing I remember like trying to figure out like, should I take the ferry or should I take flights in between? Me and my family went up taking flights. And of course, like I wrote in there, like, why we wound up doing this over the ferries. It was faster, it was cheaper, you know, whatever reason. So yeah, it's. It's either like what was helpful for me at the time and like what was a common like, nagging thought. I had the same thing for Belize. Trying to like get from Belize City to the islands. I was like, okay, do I take the boat? Do I fly over? You know, So I wrote a post for that. So it was what was helpful to me in the time. Or like I said, like, what I find on key search as far as, you know, not super difficult volume, not super difficult to rank for. Sorry. And higher volume so that, you know, traffic is Good.

Do you use any of your previous experience in the entertainment industry? Like, did that come into play at all when you've been doing, like, SEO? Were there things where, like, you had opportunities to explore SEO in the different past experiences you've had in tv?

I was mostly in post production, so I worked with the Enders, ending shows like Riverdale and Batwoman and trying to think of other shows I ended right now, Mistresses. So SEO wasn't really part of it. I mean, there was a lot of planning, so I guess that part of it would be in. But as far as any kind of like, technical website Y stuff. Not, not much. Just because, like, mostly my job was like scheduling actors to do ADR or planning the schedule or billing and stuff like that. So. But yeah, I would guess, like just the planning part of it and kind of being disciplined in that, because that is one of the few things about being my own boss is like, you kind of have to be disciplined to be like, okay, we're gonna go do this, and we make sure we do it as completely as we can, you know, because I don't get to visit these places. You know, I can't just pop over for a photo that I forgot.

So, so. So do you use a particular, like, project management software in a way? Like, I know that there's like Asana, Jira, things like that to like, kind of like when you're, when you're building your content and scheduling things like, what's your go to software when it comes to that?

I don't think I have a go to software for that because, like, for. For posts, I don't really see schedule them. If I just finish it, I just post it. For like, social media stuff. Yeah, I, I schedule that out. But yeah, there's not really. I have like a bank of like keywords of, of stuff I've researched to be like, okay, this is probably a good thing that I want to write about. Like, for instance, like when I was saying like the Greek islands of like, oh, yeah, this was like a thing I really. I did research on myself. But. So, like, let's make it easy for other people and not make them, you know, have to read eight articles. So that's the only kind of thing is like, I have like a keyword bank that I, I make for myself that I'm. I'm several posts behind on because there's always more you can write, but that's about it.

Yeah, I know AJ's real big on content calendars and Dennis really gets on me about Content calendars for this, for what we do. And I, I just don't. I don't.

I'm.

Okay. Like, I don't. I. I do it very manually. I do it. I'm just. I'm weird like that. But I, I, I could see where the benefits are in it, but.

Or something that I was, like, assigning different things to people. I would definitely do some kind of calendar to keep track of who was doing what. But being that it's only me writing, I just have, like, a word bank of, like, okay, today is Vienna, and we're gonna write about this, you know, now that's fantastic.

Let's. I want to play a game. Let's pretend I am someone who wants to start getting into, like, let's say I want to write again. I'd be a really, really poor example since I don't go anywhere, since I don't. I drive most places. I don't. I fly when I have to.

Road trips are big on. On blogs. You know, it's true.

That's.

That's true.

Okay, so I. I do have a shot. I do have a shot. Okay. If I'm just starting out and I want to be and I want to write and, you know, and I want to write kind of ton about traveling in my limited capacity. What are. What are some of the things that you would give as advice for, like, people just starting out, seeing as we are in this kind of, like, I don't want to say it's a transition into the AI world as if it's going to completely change everything. I mean, it will affect things, but, like, if I'm that person that wants to start out now, like, what are some of the things that I need to be aware of when I first start?

Yeah, that's a good question. I would say, like, learn SEO as best as you can, because, like I said when I started, I just would write an itinerary and just put up whatever I thought would help people, which is. There's some value to that, but it's not gonna rank on Google, probably, because I would just be, like, things to do. I. I mean, there used to be so many, like, weird. I'm so old and blogging that there used to be weird titles. It'd be like, week one of Paris, and you're like, who's searching for that?

Right?

You know, or it'd be like, my first day in Paris, and you're like, nobody's searching for these things. Which is. If you're writing your blog as, like, a diary, that makes sense, you know, but like, that's not going to get you any. You know, I think I, I did a road trip across the United States and I think mine was like solo female road tripper. Nobody's looking for that. You know, like, so learning how to get with without like making it too like, robotic to your point earlier, but finding ways to like actually help people, but using keywords that Google actually gives the hoot about, you know, so rather than, yeah, solo female road tripper, it could be like doing a road trip while solo or something like that. You know, some keyword that you, you find that, that people are actually searching the Internet for. And for me, SEO, learning where keyword placement goes, how to optimize your website. It's not slow because, you know, nobody wants to go on a website that takes, you know, 10 minutes to load anyway. But Google doesn't want it either, you know, comment.

Nobody wants.

Yeah, yeah, nobody, nobody wants that. But yeah, SEOs. Yeah, like I said, keyword placement, some of the big things that I've, and I'm still learning how to do this is like intention for Google. So for instance, I had a post on things to do in Washington D.C. and Google Discover kept picking it up, but it wasn't ranking anywhere on Google. Like literally wasn't even on the 10 pages. But I was like, why does Google Discover give a hoot about this, this blog post? But like, I can't get it to go rank anywhere. So I looked at like the, the blog that was ranked on the first page and there was only one. And they had their list of things to do sort of by categories. You know, museums, monuments, government buildings and like that. And I was like, okay, let me try that. So I just made my categories, went to the first page. And I think that is like a credit to like Google's intention is Google is like, oh, if we want this easily sortable for people. And that's the only thing I changed. It wasn't like I had changed anything else in that post. Now I've since lost that first page post on page two, but it was on the first page for about a year. So it's kind of like playing that chess game with Google and being like, oh, okay, you want, like this, okay, let me go do that. And I try to tell people, don't steal. I obviously I just looked at the fact that they did categories and went, okay, how can I do my own categories? You know? And like I said, none of the other content changed.

So I think that's a misconception that people have, too, is with the. What.

What.

I guess what you could, like, categorize is like competitive analysis. It. I. We used to. I used to run into that problem too, with. In real estate, like, all the time. And I got to bring up real estate because Dennis isn't here. And every episode I try to work it in, but it does ring true because, you know, there was a lot of, you know, you're one. Let's say you're one brokerage amongst many in a. In a metropolitan city, right? Like in the city of Chicago. And what. What's going. You guys hear me?

I can hear you, but we can't see you.

I apologize. That's the first time that has ever happened. And that's.

Right, you're in real estate to some question.

Monday, I was arguing with Comcast about the Internet speeds here, and they're like, oh, no, you're just gonna have to update all your equ. And I'm like, I know. I'm like, it worked. Monday, I was like, why is this. Shouldn't be an issue. But no, yeah, I brought up real estate because Dennis isn't here. So he always loves when I talk about that. But I actually had similar situations where, you know, there's multiple brokerages in a city, right? So we were in the, you know, city of Chicago. And then basically what happens is you. You see like, let's say, like, content about a particular. Particular neighborhood, about a particular, like it ranks a certain way and yours doesn't. And you're kind of like, well, why? You know, and the ownership always used to be like, I don't want to copy other people's stuff. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not suggesting we copy. I'm suggesting we see what is the uniqueness. Because again, like, like you had even said yourself, Michelle, like, you have to. There has to be a uniqueness to what you're writing about or what you're, you know, the content or it's no better than somebody else's. And Google's going to see that it's in like, almost like a copy. So I think that's. I think that gets overlooked by people sometimes that sort of, and I'll call it competitive analysis, but really all you're trying to do, like you said, is it's intent. You're just trying to see, like, there's a reason why things rank, right? Because people find it useful for a particular reason. And you're just trying to make sure that your content also gives that particular Reason to be useful. So it's. I always, I always kind of like when I hear people are like, oh, I don't want to copy, I don't want to copy it. It's like, no one's suggesting you do. Right. Because I've even given that out as advice where I'm just like, take a look at the, you know, go to the first page, you know, for whatever it is that you're trying to rank for, and see, I'm like, what is the commonalities amongst these things? Well, I'm not copying somebody's stuff. I'm like, let's be clear. I don't, I don't want you to do that. Exactly. You know, so, yeah, I find that to be pretty crucial, you know, with that. And then especially if you're writing about stuff where the human element makes a really big difference, you're not going to be copying. There's no way you would, because that's your experience. Right.

So now, have you noticed people mimic the things that you've done on your blogs? Like, I know back in the day when I was building, I was in a very niche market where it was just, it was school supplies, like school supply kits. And I noticed that, like, when we made changes to particular ways that we did things on the website, week later, competition was doing the same thing. Like, do you, have you ever realized or have you ever seen like, somebody is like trying to take your content or trying to take the thing that you do and do it themselves in a way? Like, have you ever come across that?

I don't think so. And we all kind of like borrow from each other to some degree. So for instance, like, on top of some of my itineraries, I'll have like a box that's, it's like, you know, like a short, quick list of like, tours to book and, you know, and if it's like, let's say Greece, I'll be like, book asap. The Acropolis, because it's super busy. So it's just like quick facts. Which Jesse on a journey is somebody I, I kind of got that idea from. So we all kind of like borrow from each other. And, and she's a very. She teaches people how to blog and stuff like that. So she was definitely one that I was like, I think she'll be fine if I come take this idea. But yeah, I don't, I don't think I've seen anybody kind of take. I have seen somebody like, absolutely duplicate my blog post and I had to report it. You know, word for word, and it gotten taken down very quickly, which was great. But, yeah, I don't think I've seen anybody mimic how I do stuff. And I've definitely checked in on, like, people who. Bloggers who, like, write about similar keywords. Like, I'm not checking every blogger, obviously, that would, you know, never happen. But if I see somebody, like, constantly ranking, I'll, like, check to be like, great. What are they doing? That's different. But, yeah, I don't think I've ever seen anybody who's done what I'm doing.

When it comes to, like, measuring the success of things. Is there a. Is there a particular. Because especially now. Because. Right, because you're. Let's say, the percentage that everybody's thrown around now holds true. Right. You expect to lose 65% of your traffic. Like, where. What are some of the other. Other ways that you're kind of shifting towards as far as measuring the success of things with regards to the writing?

Usually how I measure success is, like, income generated. At least for myself. Luckily, I think it was July, was that month that they turned on AI overviews for Europe. I think it was. It was either June or July. Luckily, after that month, for whatever reason, things went back to normal for me. I know not for every blogger that happened, but for me, it kind of, like, went back. I did see them because they used to put the snippets always at the top. Now I've seen them kind of, like, sometimes put them, like, two below the first results. And I think that kind of, like, shook things up a little bit for people. It's just my guess. I. I'm not quite sure if that's true or not, but I definitely saw, like, a return the month following because I was just like, oh, how do I get in these snippets now? And even if you are credited in a snippet, like, I haven't seen anybody prove that that means you get any traffic. So I. I didn't put a ton of work into that because I was just like, okay, let's. This. Let's not panic with, like, a chicken with my head cut off and try to, you know, change everything for this when we don't know kind of where it's gonna play out.

I imagine the backlash, too, from just people in general. That's. I'd had to. Because even when I saw it, I was just like. Because I. I was even doing searches and I was guilty of it myself. I was like, oh, I just. Yeah, that's the answer I needed. Okay. That, that seems right. And then I'm thinking, you know, I don't. I don't really click anymore, do I? I was like, oof. I'm like, man. Because, you know, it being like, because I used to, like, part of my job at a previous company is, you know, like an SEO person and like, metrics and analytics. And I was just. And when I saw myself, like, repeating that pattern just recently where I wasn't clicking anything and I was just taking whatever answer, you know, not even taking into consideration hallucinations and like, things like that within, like, LLMs, but just not clicking in general, and I was like, oh, God. I'm like, that's. People gotta be just irate right now, because I know I would be if I was on the opposite end of that, trying to, like, gather these metrics and trying to measure success. So. But it is nice though, like you mentioned that you do get to like, you still have the, the, the, the revenue income kind of measurement as well. That can also kind of help guide the ups and the downs. I mean, obviously you never want to see it go on the down, but. But you do still. You'll get to.

So, I mean, and that month that they, they turned it on, my revenue, like, cut in half, which was like, not super fun, obviously.

Right.

But in that moment, I also like. Because I was just like, well, what if this never goes away? Like, I started looking at other avenues and one of them was definitely Pinterest, which is kind of based off an SEO model as well, and started kind of like digging more in there. And I actually saw some like, really great traffic until actually about like a week or two ago. But I'm hoping it's like, seasonality of, like, kids are going back to school and people are planning travel less, and I'm hoping it's going to go back up. But I definitely did start seeing, like, more Pinterest traffic in that time because, yeah, you can't sit there and just hope things are going to change. Obviously I was, like, happy that things swung back, but, like, I also know that, like, they could turn something back on tomorrow and it can all go back down, you know, so, like, you just kind of have to, like, be like, is this still worth it? And for me, I, I actually really do like blogging, so because. And that's why I tell people who are like, oh, I'm thinking about doing it. I was like, you have to understand, you have to really like this. You know, it's kind of like when I used to work in entertainment and People who are like actors would be like, you have to love the art of it. Or if you're just sitting here to like, hopefully be Jennifer Aniston, like, good luck to you, you know, like, yeah.

If you're doing it just for a.

Paper, it ain't gonna work.

Yeah, like, like there's, yeah, there's that month that I made half my income. It wasn't great. No, I was like, this sucks, you know, especially when I know like, there's bloggers who are making like more than I am. And I'm like, oh God, I'm putting effort into this. But at the end of the day, I still enjoy what I'm doing. I still get messages from people who, to the point of what I was talking about earlier is the hotel is giving it to me for free. They'll ask me questions about my stay. And I think that provides a lot of value to these hotels. You know, I had so many the. I got to stay at this lovely 700 year old monastery in Prague for free. That's normally like 400 a night or something like that. Crazy. And somebody asked me my opinion about that the other day, you know, so I think there's still value to, to what people like me are doing. But yeah, I think, AI, you can't be like asking like, what's the weather in June in Prague? Like, they don't need me for that, you know, like, but when they were like, hey, we heard that the trams sometimes are loud at night at this hotel. Can you tell me, did you hear them? AI is not going to give them that.

Right, right, exactly, exactly. With you mentioned the seasonality, I was just curious, like, this just popped up in my head. Like, have you noted, has there been a change as far as like the, the trend when it comes to. Because you know, everybody would like traditionally you think seasonality, you think, oh, it's starting to get warm now. This is where everybody travels. But I'm wondering like, because of the way kind of like the dynamic of like work and just work, life balance and all that, especially within the last couple years, right? And especially because of like, you know, lockdowns and things where people started to work from home. So they're Even their job structure changed, right? So even me working here, coming from where I used to work, like real estate was nuts 24 7. So time off and time to travel and time to go on vacations was far less than a place that like HubSpot, that values work, life balance far more than the real estate industry. I'm not Saying where I worked was bad, but just the industry in general HubSpot compared to that, do you see? Has like the, the trend in the seasonality of travel changed due to that or is it still kind of the same kind of ups and downs as far as interest? Like oh, let's say, I don't know. Especially if you're in the states here in the Midwest, like May ish is like the blizzard's over and you can dig out of your front door. Now I can start going places. Do you, have you seen a change?

It's hard for me to say because I've only like restarted and taken like blogging seriously within like the last year and a half. Ish. Because like before I kind of like did it like once a year or every like twice a year or something like that. So it's hard for me to say like a year over year analysis. But as far as me for like traffic and income, it's pretty consistent. Like I make between like 2000 and 2500amonth usually other than that one month where AI, you know, tanked everything. And I'll definitely see like downs and like, like the, the time between Christmas and New Year's, like it's just like nobody's doing shit. There's nobody on the website and I just know that's gonna happen. But for as far as, for me, like it's pretty consistent month for month. So yeah, I think the seasonality to some degree is gone. And when I was talking about like the seasonality like on Pinterest, Pinterest, like I said, mile ahead, going up. So I'm just hoping it's seasonality, it's not going back down because like I said, I know a lot of like Pinterest is very female heavy. So I know it's like a lot of moms on there like searching for like school stuff and whatnot right now probably. But yeah, as far as seasonality for travel, yeah, I don't think it's there as much. I will say though that like I don't really have many winter destinations on my travel blog. I went to Finland and got, went to the Arctic Circle and that's very much like a winter destination. But that's my only one that's like very winter specific because I went to like Belize and Mexico in winter and that's not exactly like you can also go there in summer and I don't think the experience is gonna like vastly change, you know, versus like.

Right.

I went to the ice hotel in Finland. That's not Going to be there in June, you know.

That'S got to be so cool. I. I just. Because I think that was. Wasn't that the one that was in. What was it Pierce Brosnan? It was in. It was a Bond film. They had something similar. I don't know if it was the actual hotel, but it was.

What's that, Goldfinger?

No, Holly Berry and Pierce. I think it was Pierce Brother.

Was it Die Another Day?

It might have been, but that's that. I don't know if it was that hotel, but it was like a similar thing where it was just like. And I knew there one had a real one had existed. I don't know if it was that one but like, like, yeah, those type of travels are just. I mean I'm envious of that. I. I truly, truly am because it's. To me, I don't know, it's you especially I think now because like working from home, it's a. You don't get out as much. So now even more so because like I used to like whenever there was a really good article about like traveling somewhere or about a particular destination, I would, I would definitely read it without a doubt. And I think now more so, I actually kind of seek that out just because of the fact that there is less of a. And it's not like I'm tra. You know, like I can drive to Indiana or I can drive to Ohio or Iowa on this side and it's like, yeah, I could get out, but it's not. No, like, like articles like, like things that you like that you write about is. Is definitely the thing that kind of. I don't know, it really does. It makes things, it kind of open ups. It opens up the world where like, you know, not too long ago it seemed very, very condensed. So kudos to that because that's. I think that's a huge thing that doesn't get done enough, honestly. Because it's easier to post on Tick Tock or it's easier to post on LinkedIn and you know, and just throw up a couple of second thing that I don't know. Personally sometimes I don't think there's that much thought put into a lot of that either. But this, you can tell definitely. They're definitely.

Thank you.

Is there a. Is there a way that you kind of use to help kind of stay? Because I mean there's, there's traditional SEO stuff too, right? Where you can be like, oh, I follow this website or I go, is there. Are there other particular things that you Follow or that you kind of watch with regards to SEO and kind of content writing that you use to help you kind of stay on top of things.

So I join a lot of Facebook groups. I will credit how I know most SEO stuff was a girl named Sheena Think I SEO. Her name is Nina. I had seen on a podcast called Niche, Niche Pursuits. They have people like, who are like experts in their field come and talk. And she did some posts that she was like, I went from this network of views to this number of views and I was like, okay, let me watch it. And a lot of those times those are like, interviews are like so generic. Like, yeah, I just put in a lot of work and that's how I got there. And you're like, okay, cool. How is that helpful to anybody else? But she was very like action focused of like, I did this and this and this and this. And that's the best way I can learn is if you're giving me actual either examples or a list of steps or things like that. So I wound up seeking out her. Her Facebook group and joined that, which got me on her newsletter as well. And that Facebook group, like, we're all going through it together. You know, if something like when, when AI changes something, everyone will be like, hey, did you see that thing? That is not working anymore. You know, so it's just a good way of, of having a sounding board asking questions and then also kind of like getting validated. Be like, okay, I'm not the only one that's tanking this month because of whatever the, like when, when the, the AI thing switched on for. They're, they're how I found out that they turned it on for Europe, the AI overviews. And I, I really proved that it was that on my blog because my impressions were the same, but my views were like cut in half. So I was still ranking. My rankings didn't change. It's just that nobody was clicking, you know. But yeah, definitely, she knows SEO is, is how I, I get most of my information. There's another one that's like make money traveling. I think it's another Facebook group. I think those are the two main ones I hang out with. Hang out and then I'll like read other people's posts and see what they're asking questions. And of course I'm asking my own questions as well. And she knows SEO. I have it linked to my blog, but I did a course of hers that was very beginner focused. So some, some of the stuff for me, like I already knew, but if somebody's, like, brand new to blogging, would be very helpful to them. I think it's like the first 50k or something like that, it's called, which goes through, like, all the SEO basics.

Nice. It's good to see, too, that there's a kind of a community, because I. You. You had. I can't remember where I was reading it, but, like, community management, too. Like, you were. That was part of your thing. Like, it's nice to see that, especially in the SEO world, that people are actually, like, working together. Because I remember. I don't know, maybe this. This is what, years back, but, like, it was such a guarded secret. It was. So I did this thing. Oh, that's interesting. Like, you don't have to tell me how exactly you did it, but what are some of the things ended up. This is my. This is my guarded SEO secret here. I'm, you know, if you want to take my course for, you know, $10,000 or something, you know, maybe I'll. It's like, no, I'm not asking you to. Like, I'm not gonna steal your idea, but, like, because I was first starting out in that as well, and I was just like, oh, my God, I feel like nobody wants to help you. I just feel like you have to, like, really fail horribly to learn. Which, I mean, there's nothing wrong with, like, doing something, failing and learning from it, but I. You know, when you're just starting out, it piles up. It feels like you're failing at every single thing because you don't know what you're doing yet. So it's really good to hear that there's, you know, I don't know, maybe it's just in content writing, or maybe it's just in travel. But, like, it's good to hear that there are people that are more than willing to kind of share the ideas and like, like, give others heads up when they notice something like that.

Yeah, it's definitely in travel. I would say the community. I mean, I mean, there's even people on. On LinkedIn, I chat with mostly other girls in travel writing who will share, like, you know, job opportunities or, like, hey, did you see this thing? Or this one girl that she. She's primarily a school teacher, but she does, like, write for, like, Business Insider and stuff like that on the side to make some extra income. And I'm starting to try to get into that. So I was, like, asking her advice on, like, how do you pitch for articles for them? And she'll return the favor and be like, okay, how do you do this for Pinterest? And I'm like, okay, this is what I did, you know, because, yeah, they're definitely like, back in the day. I feel like that's partly of why I failed in the previous, you know, like, 11 years before I took it seriously was like, I had no idea. And I took a couple random courses that I could afford, because you're right, like, a lot of them were, like, thousands of dollars. And I was like, how do I know you're gonna tell me anything useful? And I remember, yeah, taking one that.

Taught me nothing, which is crazy because, like, in. And. And I mean, I would say that the. The pace at which SEO changed, it constantly changes. But like, maybe 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, depending on how far back you go, the change wasn't as rapid. I mean, it was fast, but, like, fast compared to, like, we're talking about, like, right now, where it comes to, like, AI, Even with regards to SEO, like, the changes, like blink and you missed was fast previously just, I would say maybe not. I mean, I don't know if it's fair to say, but not nearly as fast. And you don't want to be paying, like, a thousand dollars for a course. I always kind of attribute it to, like, when I used to. When I went to Eastern Illinois and I had, like, a web class, by the time I graduated or finished that class, it was obsolete. So you don't want to be taking SEO courses where you're paying exuberance. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with, like, paying for a course that is really good, useful. But, like, some of these things, you'd be spending that money, and by the time you were done with it, one, like you said, you may not have learned anything. And two, the philosophy in which they might be kind of pushing you towards has now magically changed because of one puffin or penguin or whatever algorithm Google update that they. I just completely blanked on what the animal was. But, like, whatever algorithm update Google, you know, decides to throw out there has completely just decimated what you've just spent time learning, you know, whatever that time frame was. So. But yeah, it's nice. That sense of community, though, with. With. With the travel industry like that, that is. It's refreshing to hear that that exists because sometimes I just. I think in certain areas, it's very standoffish. Yeah.

That's why I have even my own newsletter. It's really small right now, but, like, I will kind of do it as, like, a case Study email. Like, I'll. I'll give the example of the. The. Where I said earlier I did the different categories and that's how I got it to rank. I'll. I'll do that as a case study in the email. And like, this is exactly what I did to kind of show people, like, it's a real.

It's.

It's. Blogging is a lot of work, but you can also figure it out. It's like it's a puzzle you can solve if you spend time on it. And like, not to say that I know all the answers, but, like, I feel like that's such a. More relatable. I tried this and this is the result. You know, I'd rather learn from somebody who liked that than like the. Yeah, like, I just put in a lot of effort and I just learned. And you're like, okay, but what action steps did you take to get.

What they're not telling you is like, for days they were pulling their hair out, like, completely, like breaking everything. You know what I mean? There's a.

Or like there was outside help. Like, there's somebody. I won't name it because I don't want to, like, you know, harp on anybody, but, like, people who are like, writing books and stuff like that, and they're like, I sold this many books. And then they like, look, and there's like some PR company that helped them get all this coverage. And. Which is fine if you want to pay for a PR company to get that coverage of fine. But, like, let's not pretend like you just organically found all this stuff.

Transparency. And that's the things that I always. I remember I got into it with one blogger, and it wasn't against the blogger. It was. They were blogging about a certain technology type thing. And I'm like, yeah, but you're not. You're not in that field. So the things you're saying aren't 100%. And it's like you're telling people to do this, but that's the wrong way to do it. And it was like this little liker back and forth online. And I think it was like when it was Twitter. I'd still call Twitter, but it was like, basically one of those. And I was like, look, like, we can agree to disagree. Your article is still your article. It's resourceful. But I'm just trying to give people a warning. Like, hey, it's not the full view of what you're doing. There's more to it. And I think you just nailed it when you said that there's more to these things and you have to be transparent about how you got it. If you're saying, oh, I got a thousand views. Yeah, but you paid for 500 of them. Like, let's, let's not falsely lead people into following what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah. And that's why I, I, on kind of what started my journey of like sharing how I do all this was I post on, I saw something on threads, post how much they made and I was like, okay, cool, that's like a good way for me to like track and I break it down by ads or affiliates and, and Amazon and things like that. And like so many people have like followed me because I'm transparent and I'll be like, I made $15 here and like $4 here and $75 here. And like it's at least transparent and I'm being reasonable and not just being like, I'm a six figure blogger, which those people probably saying it probably are. But like, I don't know how you're making your money. Like, that's very, you know, like I'd rather be like, oh, she's only making 2,000. But I know exactly how she's making that 2,000.

Yeah, yeah. And that's I, and, and kudos to that for, for the transparency. Because like you said, like a lot of people, they just, they won't do that. And it's like, listen, and everybody inflates things every once in a while. Like, okay, it's 1900, I round up, I'll round up to 2000 short. Like, but like a lot of people are, I mean, it's not that they're being dishonest, but I get the, there's a draw, right? There's a, there's a certain draw to saying like, okay, I have this blog, I write this content and I'm, I'm making bank. You can be just like me. Like there's, there's a draw to that, right? Because people want to do that. But no, I, I, I, I really do appreciate like the transparency in that respect because there's not a lot of people that do that. And because I got, I don't know, maybe people might be scared, you know, to like, to be honest about those things. But I, I, you know, I, I have the utmost respect, honestly. So.

Yeah, and I feel like the, the other thing, especially with like the rise of influencers and stuff like that, I think a lot of people get into it thinking they'll see somebody on like a Sponsored pet press trip and just like assume their life is like that. I've met a blogger that years ago that I really, I thought she was amazing and, and I'm not saying she's not amazing, but I thought she was like thriving off this blog. Right. Like, that's the way she perceived it. I had like an in depth conversation with her and I found out like, she really couldn't pay her rent, you know, because it was all like gifted trips and whatever and like she was like being sent over to Ireland for St Patty's Day with some company, which is great, but like, if you can't also pay your rent.

Yeah, right.

You know, so like that's the other thing about like I don't want to give people an illusion that's like not there, you know, like, yes, I'm living off my blog right now, but I'm also look like I was also great to work for AAA for a little while until they, they laid everybody, all the contractors off. That sucked. I would have stayed there forever though, because I really liked them, you know, but I got, only got that because of my blog and that helped me pay my rent, you know, So I just, I'd rather give out the honest view rather than like pretending I'm like thriving in this, you know, like, unattainable area.

I know we're, we're running up on time and I, we do appreciate you taking the time to talk with us, but there is one question I always love to ask everybody. And even if you don't have like a mentorship type of quote that someone's given you or something like that, like, you are in a sense, like you are a mentor. Because if there are people that have come to you and. Right. And then have asked you, so if you don't have one, what would. I'll phrase the question a different way then? But usually the question that we ask is like, what is some of the best mentorship advice that you've gotten? You know, either, you know, with career, you know, throughout your career, it doesn't have to be this job. It could be a previous job. And if you don't have one, the, the inverse of the question. If you don't, like, what are some of the things that. And you did allude to this earlier about like, if I was starting out. But what is a piece of mentorship advice that you would give to somebody that was maybe first starting out, wanting to write content and creating a, you know, a business like this for themselves?

That's a good question. Yeah, I Can't. I mean, short of saying Nina, as she knows SEO as a mentor, where I've learned a lot, it. But I can't think of, like, a piece of wisdom that she's imparted off the top of my head. But I feel like the. What I would tell somebody is just like, make sure whatever vertical you're going into, because obviously, content writing, you could be writing mechanics, or you can write me writing travel, you can be writing that school supplies. It doesn't matter. Just make sure whatever it is you're, like, actually passionate about. You know, like, I, like, basically, like, dream about ending blog posts. That's how much I'm, like, into this. So, yeah, just make sure it's like, it's whatever vertical you're actually passionate about. Because I get, you know, I've seen job postings where it's like dentistry. Like, I don't really. Yes, I go to my dentist, but I don't want to be writing about it, you know, like. And it's only going to be easier and passionate for you if that's something that you care about. You know, I love telling people, like, make sure you do this before you go. Make sure you do that. Make sure you have this. Like. Like, I get excited about that stuff. And people have even told me they're like, you're really passionate when you start talking about this. And I'm like, yeah, because I really care. So, yeah, just make sure whatever. Whatever vertical you go into for writing is, is an area you care about.

Excellent. No, I think that's. I think that's absolutely true because it's like, you can tell because you could just. Honestly, you could tell when you're talking with people. Like, I've had people say that about me, like, like real. Okay, real estate at the time. Like, if you did, like, there's. There's a. You can just tell there's a. There's a difference between someone who's talking about something with a passion versus someone who's just talking about something. And I think it's like, sometimes it's really, really easy to tell the difference. And, you know, you always. And plus two, as someone, when you're discussing something with someone, it's. It's awesome to, like, watch someone who has such a passion about. Makes it more interesting as well. Just as someone who's listening to, you know, a conversation as well. So. No, I. I think even if. Even if you don't have mentorship, that, you know, a quote that's been, you know, that's influenced you, your, the way you embody things is a piece of mentorship that others can take from 100. So I, I, it's, it's great. So kudos to that. That is just, that's fantastic.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna interrupt Nick because I know what he's gonna ask next because this is also something we ask, but I want to ask it because I'm, I'm very interested in this because I, I, I was, I was stalking your LinkedIn. We'll be honest. I was looking at your LinkedIn. Tell me about deferring death. Tell me, so you, do you write on the side? Is this, is this a hobby that you do outside of your job? Because that's usually what we ask people is like, what do you do when you're not doing what you do?

Right?

Yeah. So that I started in Covid before driving back into the travel blogging, and I'm still trying to edit that book. I'm deciding to finally self publish because I was only tired of being, trying to get picked by a publisher. So Deferring Death is an action adventure novel, basically. I grew up loving Indiana Jones, as I mentioned earlier, and Tomb Raider and all those kind of Jumanji, all the action adventure stuff, stuff. And I was always like looking for more of it because, you know, they don't make those films constantly, and was trying to find a book, but every book was kind of like Outlander, where I was just like, okay, this is a romance book with like a dash of adventure in it. I don't want this. I want, I want Indiana Jones is a book or Tomb Raider or Jumanji or whatever. And a friend of mine at the time was like, why don't you try? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, when I've got all this time. Because at the time I was still on TV and you work like 12 hours a day on TV and you sit in two hours of traffic because it was Los Angeles and blah, blah, blah, no time. And then covet hit. And I was like, well, gee, I've got all this time now. So I wrote it during COVID and then just have been kind of ending it and working on it and trying to, to get it published. But yeah, I'm trying to self publish it. Basically it's about a woman who, who reclaims stolen artifacts, so artifacts taken by foreign nations. She's trying to return them and she winds up finding a Maya codex that winds up leading her on this kind of like epic Indiana Jones type adventure because she winds up Getting hurt and has to solve it before she dies. So, yeah, that's. That's my other. Other passion.

That's fantastic. Thanks for making a strong female lead because there is not enough of those in books and stuff like that anymore, you know, as I have two daughters and it's like, I love when there's books like that where it's like.

Like.

Yeah, no, like, it's not just like, you know, Nicholas Cage and, you know, National Treasure. Like, there's more, like, there's a lot more adventures. I just think that that's fantastic. Like, that sounds. It sounds awesome, honestly.

Oh, thank you so much.

That's very cool. Why don't. Is there, you know, before we wrap things up, can you. Why don't you tell everyone where they can find you? I mean, I know that. Tell everybody about the website and everything. Yeah.

So it's travelherstory.com kind of like history, but with her at the front of it is I. So explain it to people so they can spell it correctly.

And then what is the book? Is the book out or is it.

No, it's a work in progress. But if you go onto my. My website, I do have like a block on the homepage where you can sign up for a newsletter where I'm going to start sending out information when I have updates of where it's going to be. Or you can go on my LinkedIn, which is Michelle Jensen, and find me on there. And I'll be posting on there as well. And you're welcome to send me a connection request.

Excellent. No, thank you. And thank you so much for being on. This was really great. Yeah, it's really nice to be able to talk not just about SEO, but, like, focus it in on particular verticals. Because, I mean, you could talk about SEO all day long from a general standpoint. Right. And there's a lot to cover and it's. It's almost too much. Right. You'd be bouncing around on too many things. But to be able to kind of narrow down and really drill down into, like, certain specifics is a really fantastic thing. So we appreciate you taking the time to come on and we can't say enough about it. So thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, no, no problem. And I'll just. I'll leave it with this. Like I always do. I like to impart wisdom on AJ as well. But Tolkien once said that, you know, not all those who wander are lost. And that's only because he never drove with me in my car. Because without Android Auto, I couldn't get. I couldn't get out of the town I live in here. So I appreciate Tolkien's attempt, but he just, he had never met me, and I think that's part of the problem.

So it's okay, pretty much.

But we'll end it there. And thanks, everyone, for listening. You know, if you haven't already, go check out Michelle's website. You know, sign up for the newsletter if you want to check out and, you know, learn about the book and when it comes out. And then, of course, you know, like, and subscribe. If it wasn't for people like our listeners, you know, we wouldn't still be able to do this, this. So thank you very much for listening, and we'll see you all next time. Bye.