Ep. 32 - HubSpot Dev Site: An Origin Story with A.J. and Brooke | Developers:After Dark

Do you still want me to play the video just, just for you or.

Yeah, you know what, Just make me feel good. That's good. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, we can do that. Yeah, sure. Here we go.

It is bright and sunny in the Midwest on World Smile Day. And today we have a very, very awesome episode where we're going to talk about the developers website with no co host because. And for those of you on video, you'll notice that AJ is here, but AJ is a guest today instead of a co host because both himself and our guest Brooke, who's been here before, and others as well, tremendous amount of work on the developer's website that just cannot go unbragged about. At least I want them to brag about it. But before we get started, let me pose this to you. The printing press, the telegraph, the telephone, the Internet, the iPhone, and social media. Now what do these things have in common? Technological platforms. Now surely with that much greatness in the platform world, there could be no room for any other platform on the planet. Well, number one, I don't know anyone named Shirley. And number two, you would be absolutely wrong because the HubSpot developers platform is the next iteration in that long line of great platforms. And what's even better is all you have to do is go to developers.HubSpot.com to learn more about it. I mean, you can craft seamless experiences that'll help your business and other businesses as well grow better. Powered by HubSpot's Smart CRM. Now I know what you're saying. Well, okay, that's a, that's a wonderful tagline that you probably read off the website, which I may have, or. But at the end of the day you're going to have to realize too, you're going to be able to have better robust applications, that basically you're fueling your applications. You're going to be able to surface way more insights than you used to be able to, let's say rewind the clocks back five years, 10 years and then you're actually going to be able to act on this data that you're going to collect. And those things are going to be key when trying to either compete with the next brand in your vertical or when you're trying to create these wonderful experiences. Let's say you're a service provider. So all I can tell you right now is you need to go to developers.HubSpot.com to find out so much more. Not to mention that it's a great looking website when you get there. But you will be able to go through, you'll be able to explore the developer docs, you'll be able to see what's new with regards to everything. Because not just that, but recently I would say probably about what, like two weeks ago, if not more, we just had inbound. So all of these things on top of what we just talked about right here, launched upgraded new features, so much more. So there's a lot there to take in. But Again, go to developers.HubSpot.com and you will be able to see all of that and so much more. So with that being said, I did mention that, yes, there, there is a very specific reason why we have our guests on, on today. I'm going to let them introduce themselves first and then we're going to dive in and we're going to start talking about the developer's website. Take it away, guys.

Good, Brooke.

Awesome. Well, hi everybody. I have been on this podcast a couple of times now. I hope you all recognize me. My name is Brooke and I am one of the developer advocates on our team and I specifically focus on, on development operations and writing content, making videos, that kind of stuff. So you can see me on the HubSpot developer YouTube channel and you can also read my blogs on our developers.HubSpot.com blog. And I'm here today because I was one of the people who helped to build out our new developer website.

As many of you know, I'm AJ I'm also a developer advocate here at HubSpot and I was also part of that team that helped basically build the developer's website and the new stuff that's out there. So yeah, it's, it's been an adventure for sure.

One of these days we're gonna have to create a leaderboard for how many times people have been on the show. So that way we can see because John's up there and now Brooks up there. I think Brooks took, took it over John spot as like really?

I think I've been on here three times. Yeah, this is my third, this is my third appearance.

So yeah, I think that's, I think that's the record so far. So, so everyone who wants to be a guest out there, that's the, you got to shoot for, to break records, right? Records are there to be broken. So let's go, let's, let's see some of those forms on the, on our website there for our guest speakers. But, but enough joking around on my part. But I really want, let's, let's start and let's get Right into talking about this because like this is one of those things where it's like there is so much that we could potentially talk about. That one hour unfortunately doesn't always. Is pretty much isn't really going to be able to cover all the amazing things and the amount of hard work that everyone on the team there did in order to make this happen. But I want to try to go over as many of the highlights as humanly possible possible there. So I'll just kind of, I'll just. Between the two of you, you can popcorn it back and forth. But like one of the first like questions that I have would be the, the new features. Like can we talk about some of the new features that are on the site that weren't there before?

Yeah, absolutely. I can pull up the site too if. Yeah, we'll do that.

Yeah. Let's get some visuals on the screen.

Right, there we go.

So one of, one of the newer features that you can almost see right away on the very front there is like we have this really cool like console looking thing, but we could talk about that in a little bit. But let's talk about one of the features that I think a lot of people are going to enjoy. And it's kind of like this little thing that we added in and you actually look in the top right, you're going to see this little green status light and believe it or not that's actually attached to HubSpot status page. Before it was always the questions with developers going like, oh hey, is there something happening right now? Is there an outage? Is there this is. Or that. We wanted to be able to surface that information more because that's a lot of what we saw inside. Looking at the community Slack and just community forums when we started out to look for features that we wanted to add, we did a lot of research into what people were basically saying about the site or what people have been just talking about in general and then went back and said, okay, well how can we incorporate some of this into this site to give them more information? We wanted to condense a lot of what we had because we'll be honest, like the previous page, it was a bit long, right. There were some sections on there that we probably could have done away with or shortened or made smaller. And we really wanted to make a more clean approach when we went forward with this site. Just to say one of those features we added was the status page indicator. Now for those that don't know, we use Status page by Atlassian. A lot of companies use that it's out there. One of the really great things about status page is they actually give you a JSON file that is connected to that status that is always referring. If I'm not mistaken, I think it's 30 second intervals by default. But it basically will always update that JSON file with your latest status that is posted on your status page. What we did is we hooked right into that and we're pulling directly from that JSON file that status indicator that you see on the page. If there ever is an issue within 30 seconds or so, it should update and constantly give you that status. We have plans to basically build out on that a little bit more and you know, add a little bit more to it. So when you actually like hover over or click you can get a little bit more information. But right now if you were to click that, it'll take you directly to the status page and the statuses should be synced up.

Yeah, the status indicator is a very cool feature. And I think my biggest thing about this website is the new ia. I think that the way that we redesigned the Mega menus and the footer and everything that you see is we really streamlined it into different things that we think are the most important to Surface rather than just dumping you with all of these links that aren't really that important to you. So now we have very targeted buckets within our Mega Menu Get Started Apps, CMS Tooling and Marketplace and all of those link directly to our developer documentation. So they take you directly to things that are important to you and not just random pages that aren't going to service you anything.

And shout out too to the really well written descriptions underneath the links as well. I think like especially with Mega menus and stuff like you see people try to attempt that and it really there isn't. They either don't have enough content to fill a Mega menu, but like put the Mega menu on there so they can say they have a mega menu or it's very. I would say that there's maybe there's like too much imagery to it. But like I think this is like the perfect balance to be able to like both have links, some imagery, but as well as just really good descriptions. I think that's always key with stuff like that.

And that was something that even when we were discussing we had our previous things in the menus prior it was the one line label to go where you wanted. We were of the same thought pattern of we need to provide more but how much is too much? We can't Write a paragraph underneath each menu item in a mega menu. It gets overloaded. You don't want to be visually cluttered. We went with this approach of maybe no more. I want to say we did like 30 characters. No, 30.

35 characters. I think it's 35 characters.

Yeah. Like we limited it to like this was what we set out. Like. It can't be more than this because if it goes beyond two lines, we may lose people visually when trying to read. You know, we really wanted to do our best to condense and just be very succinct and to the point because as anybody who's listening, who's a developer will know, developers deal in a lot of facts, we deal in a lot of data. We don't have time to read a giant paragraph when three words will convey exactly what we need. That's what we wanted to do. We wanted to take that approach of give you as much technical information as you need, clear and up front right away to make the decision of where you need to go in the site.

Not to mention too that a mobile responsiveness as well would have been like reading a book on your phone. Do you know what I mean? That would have been. I've seen, I've seen ones that do that, you know, in other verticals and it was just like almost to the point and then. And the two. Yet then you have to worry about like the, the proper scrolling, you know, on an overlay or something like that where it's just now you have like 9, 000 other problems that now come about when none of them should even be an issue. So yeah, I think that this is just. It's very, very well planned out from the menu perspective. Sure.

Thank you. We worked a lot with the menu. We worked cross functionally as well. So as many know, not just developers, HubSpot.com was updated, but our documentation was updated as well too. So there was another team that worked specifically on that and that is on the Mintlify platform. But that team and our team kind of worked together when it came to the ia and we had one solid, like, let's take the approach of making sure that whatever the IA is that we put on the main site reflects in the docs or like we use the same verbiage, we use the same call outs and things like that because we want consistency between everything that somebody goes to accomplish when they come to the developer site.

100%.

I mean, the only complaint I would have is just in the footer. I don't, I don't See a call out to like, one of the best podcasts that I think I've ever listened to. But I mean, like, I mean, there's always room to improve.

I mean, you have a social media link directly, directly to YouTube. You can get all of the podcasts on YouTube.

That's fair. That's fair. Okay. I mean, I'm selfish. That's fair, though. That's fair. But no, even that too. I really like the, I'm gonna say minimalistic approach to the footer, but maybe that's not. Was the intention, but like, the way I like, because I'm. I'm one of those people that, like, I'm really picky about like, design elements. Right. And there's a certain.

I don't know, I was over.

What's the best word for it? Use too many links in the footer. I don't know what the fancy word where that would be. But like, I have seen way too many websites where, like, that is the most egregious thing because it's almost like, well, we have to link to everything. Now, whether that's just a poor design choice or whether that's someone from an SEO perspective told them you have to have an internal link for everything right on this page. But I've always noticed, like, one of the most egregious things I've seen in a footer is. Is that is just like this. It almost looks like Yahoo before Google. You know what I mean? Like, it was just like this director. It was just like really weird. But. But no, again, kudos to this as well because it's just, it's very to the point. It's very, it's. I don't want to call it minimalistic because I don't want to make it seem like there's not a lot there. That's not what I mean by that. But in comparison to what I've seen, less is more. And this is like the perfect amount. So.

Well, I mean, and that circles back to when we said, like, we were strategic about what we did. You know, we. We wanted to make sure that anything that we put on this site was there for a reason. It wasn't just information thrown on a page to, you know, this isn't a kind of like, if you build it, they will come scenario. Right, Right. You can build things all day long, but you need to be a little strategic in how you go about laying it out. And that goes down from interactions to verbiage to color scheme. Like, everything needs to be thought out because every little Interaction is in a way like, like a plus or minus point system for somebody when they're looking at something, right? You accumulate enough positive points, you get brand champions, you get people that are wanting to interact with your product more, wanting to be a part of the ecosystem more. Whereas if you start giving more negative things, you're going to see people pull away and not want to be a part of it as much. So we wanted to do as much as we could to just keep those points moving forward and in a good, like to the right and up as they say in marketing, right to the right and up on the charts. We wanted to make sure that we did that, but we also wanted to make sure that we did it as a, at a, at a. Like not a disservice to our community. Right. So like we did ask the community a lot of things. We took a lot of feedback in from what we were seeing, what we were hearing. We reached out to a couple of select devs that we knew to ask them questions about like, hey, if you could have this on here, what would you want? You know, like the whole magic wand question and to go off that like old devmps things we did sift through like old feedback that we had gotten from people before and you know, we looked at it all to make sure that what we were planning was something that people were going to want to use.

No, that thought process shows question for you, Brooke. Like, I know I'm very, I'm a person that's very. Like anything I work on, I hate like that I create. I'm just really, really weird and hard on myself about that. But like was there a, was there something in particular when working on the site that you really like fell in love with when you were working on it? Because I get that. But then I hate whatever I do because I'm just weird. But like most people, most normal people like find a particular thing, especially when building a website that they like and they start working on it and it's like one of the things that when they see it they are just like super proud of. Did you have any moments in there?

Yeah, that's a great question. So the biggest piece of the website that I worked on was our blog and changelog. All of those, for people who are familiar with it, use our HubSpot CMS. All of that data is being pulled in dynamically from the back end of where we host all of our web pages. The biggest thing that we updated here is really more of a behind the scenes thing. You don't really see it on the page. But behind the scenes we went from using pure Hubble to using CMS React. The biggest thing that I'm proud of is learning how to use Islands, which is a way to add interactivity on the client side when you're using server side rendered stuff so that the rest of the page is static HTML. But especially on the Changelog page where you see this announced and upcoming section here, this is, oh my goodness, I'm getting a phone call.

I'm.

I gotta cancel that. But anyway, so here on the developer Changelog page, when you are seeing this announced and upcoming section, this is the only interactive piece on the page. So it makes it very performative, it makes it really easy to serve it up and be really good for all users, regardless of their Internet connection. Because you're not, you know, rendering that JavaScript along with all of the server stuff. It's only hydrated once it's on the client side. That's really what I was very proud of, was figuring that out because that was a really big hurdle from when we were changing our overall site from using the Hubble approach to using the CMS React approach.

Excellent. Now, I imagine too, with something where you're making, I don't want to say dramatic changes, I don't want to make it seem like, oh my God, way to do it, but like when you're making, I would say, very impactful changes like this, there had to, I'm imagining there had to have been like other type of challenges that came up that weren't like roadblocks, so, so to speak, but. But did kind of. Because, I mean, it granted. Another wonderful thing that your team does is putting in the effort to look at the metrics, look at the data, go back and see and like, ask questions of both, you know, developers and.

Community.

As far as like what they want to see or what they like and don't like. Were there any other type of challenges that, that came up when you were making like these significant improvements?

I mean, one challenge. I will. Sorry, I'm just gonna say it because it's kind of funny and we laugh about how it's tailwind. Tailwind was for those that have ever used any kind of AI coding cursor. We were big on using cursor when we built this, mainly for many reasons, not just for the AI assistance and code completion, things like that. Yes, that was beneficial. But what a lot of people might not realize is when building with it, sometimes it decides what it's going to use in certain things to Go forward and go a little. Not as much of a tangent, but one of the things that is used a lot is components. In React, we basically looked at what the documentation platform was using when it came to how do we go about what we're going to use for React and components and things like that. We saw the component library they were using, which was shad. A lot of people use chat as their base and then they build off of it. We said, well, let's make everything consistent. Let's use Chad. We started using Shed. And as you know, building a brand new site is different from modifying a current site. You still have your existing classes, you have what you need when building new. We needed to start fresh. We had an accelerated timeline that we had to work on. We're like, okay, well, let's just start building. We started building and we're like, okay, yeah, let's just use Tailwind. Sure, it was recommended. Let's go forward with it. As we started getting halfway through the project, we're like, man, Tailwind is really messing up some of the things we're doing. Because what you have to remember is at the same time, when you're looking at this site, HubSpot's main site of HubSpot.com has CSS variables, has like a lot of work done to it already. And we're trying to match branding to be consistent amongst the company. So we're not going to recreate our own variables. We might as well reuse, you know, what is it dry, right, the dry code thing. Like, we want to. To have reusable code and we wanted it to where, like, if. If a brand change happens to happen, we don't have to go up and update 15 times in our site. You know, it'll just happen. So that was one of the things where, like, as we started building that consistency, Tailwind started to show its. Its edges of like, this isn't gonna work. And then that's where, like, it was honestly really funny because Brooke, Brooke took it up and was like, we're gonna get rid, like we're ripping Tailwind out because this is getting to be crazy. And it was night and day once we got it removed. Brooke, if you want to speak more to like the process of, you know, having to go through and get rid of it, because I know that was a big part that you did, but that was something that I think was a challenge for us as we started to get closer to launch of okay, Tailwind's kind of now causing issues versus helping us more.

Yeah, well, so the thing that was like causing issues with that was a very classic beginner developer mistake, which was using CDN in production. Because with Tailwind and all of these different node stuff, it's supposed to be you package it up and compile it before you put it on your site. We were like, well, we haven't really done that with this and we're still new to the CMS REACT stuff. Let's just throw the CDN in there just to make sure it always loads all that stuff. Then you know, when you go onto the site in the console, it said in the big yellow warning area, remove the cdn. It's not good for performance. And I was all like, AJ, we need to get rid of this. We need to. Because the, the website was also taking really long to load. Yeah, and all of us know that if you are on a website that takes longer than like two seconds to load, people leave. So I was like, we gotta, we gotta do something about this. But the thing is, we were relying on it quite a bit inside of our code because all the utility classes were very helpful. So we'd have to write our own Flexbox and all that good stuff. I was like, okay, I'm going to help use AI to help me get through this. One thing I asked it to do was go through and find every instance of a Tailwind class and then use the HubSpot variant of that class that the HubSpot brand guidelines have. And that was really helpful to go through and lint all of my code and figure out where all of those were. And then I said, okay, if there's any tow in left, let's actually make sure that we compile all of this before we upload it to the site so we can get rid of the cdn. And it was really nice because when I went ahead and implemented that, I also gave AI the prerogative to write up some, some change log documentation on that, or not just change log documentation, but just documentation on that process of using Tailwind. So if anybody like in the future, like starts working on this and they don't know how Tailwind works or like how we've implemented it into our site, they can read that documentation that was written by AI and it'll tell it exactly. This is the exact NPX command that you need to run before you go ahead and run the upload for the build.

See that, that's, that's smart too, because like, I think one of the things that, at least from what I've heard when people are talking about using AI as like a helper with code to like work smarter, not harder is the documentation part right? Because it's like you have all these things and you have all these changes that are happening like instantly, but yet the person with the, the prompt engineer, if you will, may understand what they're doing at that moment. But then there's always that out of sight, out of mind. Yeah, someone else is gonna have to take this over maybe at some point and iterate on this or repair this. You know, hopefully not the, the latter, but. But no, again, kudos to that as well for thinking of that ahead of time too because like in a fast paced world where things have to get done quickly, sometimes those, I don't want to say little things, but those are things that sometimes fall off the radar slightly. And then it, as you can imagine, probably hurts a lot more in the long run than it does when you're, you know, just when it's, you know, out of sight, out of mind. So no, that's, I'm really glad that you and the team did that as well because that's fantastic.

No, it definitely it was. And like, as you said, like we were on a really, really very accelerated timeline, to put it, to put it bluntly. Like we, we had a lot less time than normally you would. For anybody who's typically built a HubSpot theme or website or anything knows five to six months is average. We were a lot shorter than that when we did this. But what was nice about, what was nice about some of that is that it was mainly Brooke, Ashley and I that did, Ashley Webster that did the things that you see on developers.spot.com, anything that is docs related was done with another team and we worked cross collaboratively to stay in touch to make sure we were aligned. But everything that's not on the docs was performed by the three of us. What was nice is we were able to divide and conquer. When these bigger pieces like this would come up, it was basically like, okay, who's going to take it and run with it and who wants to do it? For instance, you spoke about mobile navigation and mobile menus before and the footer, that was all Ashley. Ashley just was like, I'll take it. And we said, okay, Ashley did her thing and it turned out fantastic. Right?

Yeah, and shout out to Ashley too. If I hadn't said that earlier, I can't remember if I did I talk so much I can't remember what I say about 10 minutes ago. But yeah, no, also shout out to Ashley Too, because she's also on your team and also put in a tremendous amount of work with this as well. So, yeah, mobile navigation is really good. I really like it because it's like, it feels. You know what I mean? Like, there's some people, like, there's some sites that like, I've used their mobile navigation and it works, right? Saying it works is what I like to call, like the bare minimum, right? It works, right? As opposed to like, it feels like this is what I'm supposed to be using on the phone and I. To me there's a distinct difference and this feels like this is how I should be using it on the phone versus, well, it's the other navigation, but skinnier and it works. So it is very cool. I do like it. Let's. I wanted to ask too, like, because there was. There's these, these leaps and bounds, right? Or what most people would call iterations, right, over the years, like with the direction of this, this particular version, right? Like, what are some of the differences versus, like the past iterations? Like what, what, what. What about this one made it so much more special.

I think overall, in the years past, when you look at the different. We'll call it iterations of the site, this is feedback that we heard called out too. Like, oh, hey, you guys are making another version of your site. Yeah, we're making another version. And Having been on HubSpot almost six years now, I could tell you, yeah, there's been at least three different versions that I know of the developer's website and things like that.

And, and that's not, that's not too un. Like, no, I mean, three over six years, like, is not bad, right? Because people always look at that and they. And, and not to go off on a tangent, but like, just for like those who are listening, I. I'd be curious too. Like in the comments when you're watching this, like, let me know, like, it. That. That to me doesn't seem so bad, especially in, in a. In a time where like, technology's turning over quicker, right? Like, let's put this. If we were still back in the days where it was just like sort of vanilla css, right? And dare I say, like HTML, that wasn't too dynamic, right? Maybe, maybe database driven at the time, you know, turning over a website, you know, every year or every other year might have seemed a bit much because it wasn't. Not that there wasn't newer technologies, but not something to the point where you would have to redo things and say, well, we need to do this now. Right. Like maybe if your site was static and went to dynamic, let's say that. Yeah, understandably. But like now if you told me like it's been changed three times over six year period in this day and age, I would think nothing of it.

Yeah. And that, and that's exactly it. Right. Like, so when it came up and it was the big thing was like HubSpot rebranded too, if you notice, like they changed colors, they changed up the look and feel. We'll call it that. Well, our site had a completely different look and feel. And it's not that we ever tried to stray away from branding. We tried to stay consistent in the past, but it was like it is a bit different when you come to a developer site because you're expecting more technical resources versus your standard user resources that you would get on like our knowledge base, for instance. So when we thought about like the new site, we did have a big debate internally of do we just update what we have or do we go forward and align closer to the brand? And then that's where we made the decision, like, yeah, let's align closer. Let's really hammer it in with making sure everything you see, from ads to whatever all is still relevant when you come to the developer site. Right. I mean, I'm sure anybody who scrolled Facebook recently has seen like the HubSpot ad about AI and everything that we've been doing. Right. AI is another portion of it that we had to think about. You know, we're, we're no longer in this world where people are coming to sites to learn how to develop. AI is coming to our sites now and it's ingesting information. So when we talk about like past iterations of the website and how it was built, those weren't really built in it for an AI world where AI is doing a lot of the coding or is assisting people in giving solutions. So when we built the new site, we had to think about that as well, of how can we build a site that is both informational still to the humans that we service, but is also going to be easy enough for the AIs that are going to be servicing as well to come and ingest the information to get moving and to get going.

You basically have like a new clientele that you're trying to service and also too quick. Side note, shout out also, if you haven't already SEO in the AI world, we have now two episodes of that. It's kind of like a mini series that we're doing. We first spoke with Victor Pan about that on our first episode and then we spoke with Michelle Jensen on our second one. We plan to keep going with those because, like, this is a, this is a theme, if you will, that continues or that will continue to be keep injecting itself into any kind of development work or any type of SEO work, whether you like it or not. So. But yeah, it's like you were saying there, there is like a brand new customer, if you will, that you have to take into consideration for that. So. But yeah, again, that just, I guess that just speaks to both yourself, Brooke and Ashley is the thought process that goes behind this. Right? Because there's, there's sites too where it's just like, I've seen them where it's like, hey, we've got a brand new look, we've got all this, this and this. And it's like when you really were looking at. It was like, yeah, yeah, it's just basically you changed some RGBA colors and you have a new site. Not what I would consider by definition, you know, an site update, if you will. But it's more than just that because I've seen people try to do that with a little bit of coding change and try to pass that off as a new version. But like, the thought process and the things that came out of that are undeniable when looking at the site today. So.

And I think you said it well when you said like, you know, we weren't just putting a new paint of, you know, a new coat of paint on a house, we were rebuilding the house. And we wanted to have a good foundation. We wanted to be able to, you know, scale. We wanted to build something that was scalable, which is why we went with the React route of it all. You know, it gave us way more limitation or it gave us way less limitations. And it was more about like, the power of thought was really our limitation at that point of what we wanted to do. Naturally, platforms have limitations. They have their API limits or whatever other limits working within the natural limits of the platform, naturally. But it gave us the ability to think outside the box. As everybody knows, Hubble is great and Hubble is. It's been a staple of building on HubSpot, but you can do a lot more with React than you can with Hubble. You can do the same things in a way, but you can also use Hubble in React, which was nice. We were able to basically have the best of both worlds combined together as we moved forward building it. And then a lot of it was this strategization, which Brooke, you were instrumental, you and Ashley, when it came to strategizing, like, the three of us getting together. So I don't know if you want to speak to a lot of, like, the content siloing, because I know you. You did a lot of, like, the wrangling of all the content that we had going on.

Yeah. So, you know, like, I talked about with, like, our IA like, content was like a very big piece of this overhaul. Like, we really went through and were very honest with ourselves about what we had on the site. And we did a whole site audit where we went through and we just said, does this need to be here or not? And then from there, we really went back to the basics and thought about what we wanted the happy path to be when you get to the website, if you're a new person, if you're someone who's been here before, that kind of stuff. And what we realized was that our site isn't servicing anybody really well. So what we did was we had just a meeting with us and our manager, Chris Riley, where we just sat out and we drew out, literally on paper, like, what we wanted that happy path to be. And our big thing that we focused on when it came to this content redesign was use cases. Because when it comes to, like, the regular HubSpot site, that is, in my opinion, like, very markety, very sales focused. It's not focused on, like, the nitty gritty, which is where the developer site comes in. We really are focused on that. We're focused on servicing not only new customers, but customers who have been around, who just really want to know, like, what they can do, especially with the new developer platform. And so that's how we really kind of came up with how our content is being bucketed into what we call data in, data out, how to visualize your data within HubSpot, and then how to act on that data, so making updates based on the data that you see in there. And so that was really our guiding ethos when we thought about our content and we created net new landing pages for all of that that we consider to be like our new evergreen pillar pages. And I think, you know, we talked about AI. I think having pillar pages is very important for AI crawlers so that they see that and they understand, like, this is your main offerings and this is what your website is really trying to tell the story of. And so that was a really fun exercise to go through thinking about all that, because previously we just did one off landing pages on, like, Very specific things like that were so niche that you couldn't even find it because we didn't even have it connected to the website header. Like, you couldn't find those pages unless someone sent you the URL, which is in my opinion, not a great way to scaffold out your website. Every page should be able to lead you to another page on a, on a website. Like, there should never be a path where you get to. And then you're like, I can't go any further in the website. That is, in my opinion, very bad user experience. And so that was why we were really thoughtful about all of this. We, we thought about the design side, we thought about the content side, we thought about the, the structure of our code, all of that stuff.

I couldn't agree more because there's. There comes a point too where, and again, I'm referencing like, just other sites, not one in particular that I can remember, but like ones that I've seen where, like creating that path for the user, right. Instead of taking the time to go backwards and say, okay, well, let's, let's look at our Personas, let's look at our user base and try to solve the problems for them within the web page and kind of like scaffold that out or silo it out or however you want to describe it. Where I've just seen more people more lean towards. Well, let's just put a slider in the header and we're going to dump a bunch of stuff in there and we'll try to accommodate for like 70 different things, right? And they'll just, you know, eventually they'll just, they'll click through it. Of course. Isn't that what everyone does? They click through 70 sliders. But yeah, I, I really do appreciate the approach of really kind of sitting down and identifying what those. You can call them problems, call them Personas, but you know, at a certain point there are like those content silos that are not just, they're not too niche, but they're broad enough where you can drill down and then like you said, the importance of when now, when now that AI has stolen rank zero from just about everybody. It's important for it to, or any like agent to see that content and understand and kind of filter down that. I guess you'd call it a funnel. But, but yeah, just be able to read that and understand that better is again, that's. I just, I just don't think a lot of people do that. I, I think they think they're doing it, but I don't think they, I don't think they have the, the experience or the empathy in order to accomplish it like teams at HubSpot and your team specifically does. So I just don't think they, I think people think they do what you guys have done, but I, I, I think that their definition isn't the same in most cases, so.

And I think a lot of it too, as you mentioned, like experience. But I think, and I think we've talked about this in the past with Dennis where there's a difference between experience, knowledge and wisdom. Right. And I think that like we have a lot of experience, our team, but we also have a lot of wisdom. I mean if you think about it, the, the three of us together, like Brooke was an academy professor. She literally has taught people constantly about everything with HubSpot and to do it. So I mean I can't think of anybody better to have on a team to strategize than literally a person who's teaching everybody else on how to do stuff, so.

Right, exactly.

And Ashley who came over from, I won't mention the company, just I don't know if we can, but she came over from company and like she brought all her experience with, from her dev advocacy days and like literally getting her experience from like being relatively new at HubSpot when it came to like doing the developer docs and stuff like that, like that was cool because we got experience from the outside in as well. And I think like the, just the culmination of our experiences and our wisdom together is what really helped set the motion for the strategy and everything else that came about.

Oh, that's fantastic. And yeah, and it shows too because like I said, there's people that say they do that and then you can kind of see in the, the end result that it's not quite that.

Yeah, we have receipts, we have receipts for all the reasons. So.

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Absolutely. Let's talk about the hero section of the website because that's, that's another thing that when I, when I, when you were showing it to me, I saw it and I was just like, I, I, I really like that. I think that that's, it's, you know, like there's, there's plenty of websites that use the, and I'm gonna, I can't remember what the, like that there's like a, there's a couple of JavaScript, I'm use the word frameworks, but that's probably not the right word. But what is it? Types of, there's like a type one that does this, like, you know, the type functionality, right? Yeah, I've seen plenty of sites that have it and it's. It really is more for like, hey, look at this cool thing my hero section does. Like, it really doesn't offer much like, value in a sense of like, describing something or. Or to like, take like a. A fancy little tagline and it'll change the last word. And I say that with experience because I used to do that all the time with like real estate websites where I'm like, you know, buy your home, own your home, you know, win your, like, you know, like that kind of like cheesy stuff. It was more like emotion invoking. But this one is like one of the examples of like, when you're using that, like how it is actually impactful and not just like fluffy, I guess is the best way to describe it was that. Can you talk a little bit about that and like how that came about?

So it. It's actually really funny. The. The idea of the. The whole like, CLI looking area was actually just the idea of Chris Riley. He. When. When we were first strategizing about this, one of the first things you see it and it's the first one that loads when it comes up there is hs get started, right? So get started. That's kind of like our motto right now. Like, that is like, get started is literally on anybody's document to any platform you go to or any thing you want to do. Get started is how you get started with it. You know, that's the big call to action. So we wanted to rally around that. And then Chris was like, you know, I just. He's like, I would just love to have it in a terminal. Like, I just want a working cli. And we kind of were thinking to ourselves, like, we could do this. Like, we could make one that kind of fake looks like a terminal, operates like a terminal. And then like, to your point, Nick, like, yes, everybody can have a slider, but what if the text is rotated out and was commands? It was just this idea that we just kept throwing ideas back and forth. This is where using AI, like cursor and stuff came in. Really helpful because we could have easily coded all this JS stuff by ourselves to say, oh, rotate the lines, do this, do that. I just let cursor do it. When it came to the rotation of the text, to be honest, because it was one of those things where it was like, this is actually a HubSpot module. If you drop this onto a page it is a repeatable module where you can choose the next thing that rotates in. You can set the hs, the command key and then the link afterwards. When you're looking at it, you have to remember these are actual modules within HubSpot that have configurations. A lot of the stuff we're building is that activity of how do people are going to enter the information, how is it going to look when it's explained out. We did let Cursor do Most of the JavaScript stuff of working, but then that's also where we were like, okay, well, what else could it do? Because one of the things Chris said is, I want a video on the homepage. What do we do? Do we pop a modal? Do we do again? It's like, well, we got a cli. Let's load the video in the cli. It's just one of those things where we just kept circling back to the cli and then we did add some fun stuff. Just because I know how I am when I go to sites and if I see something that looks like a cli, I'm going to click buttons. I'm going to click things to make them do whatever your Easter egg hunting.

Is what you're doing.

Yeah, everybody, it's fun. And I knew of like three developers in our community that I knew were going to click these buttons even if there wasn't interactivity. So I was like, you know what? I'm just going to add it in just as a surprise, because I guarantee you one of those three is going to click it. Sure enough, the exact day we launched it, I immediately got a DM from one of them and it was Carter. And I knew Carter was going to click those buttons. So part of me. We added little interactivity elements sprinkled throughout because it's just fun. And we wanted to give developers that feel of you're technically interacting with a CLI like you normally would. If you click any of those three terminal buttons, yes, it will minimize. Yes, it will disappear for a second and come back or it will expand out. Like, we really tried to make it just fun overall.

I mean, I'm trying to punch in the Konomi code, but I don't. Nothing's happening. So I don't know if I'm doing it right.

It's. It's in progress. We are looking at Konami code and.

We have lots of Easter eggs that we want to do. But like we talked about earlier, with the accelerated timeline, that is, you know, when you're working on a site like this, when you're working on any project, it's like you just got to get to the mvp. You got to have a good mvp, but you got to get to the MVP before any of the bells and whistles. And so for me, that MVP was making sure that the website looks nice, it serves up the correct content when you ask for it, and it is just a place that you can, you know, enjoy when you go to it. Like, I come from a UX background, so, like, I really care about the user experience. Experience I care about, you know, if we, if we look at the data, like, what is the. The heat map of like, where people are looking at, like, eye tracking and stuff like that. That to me is interesting. So for me, it's not just about, like the aesthetics, but it's also about the usability of what we see. And accessibility was a big part of that mvp. Making sure that we had all of our correct tags, that we were being WCAG compliant. That was a big piece of the site as well.

Am I the only one that gets nerded out with heat maps too? Because, like, I always remember, like, Crazy Egg was like one of the very first ones, right? And that was like, I was just infatuated with that. I wanted to use it on everything and like, show people. Like, let me show you where everybody's looking at everything. I just, I thought it was one of the coolest things ever invented. So. But I'm. Yeah, I'm glad that again, it's. I. You know what, it's. It's honestly just not. Not to boil it down to something and make it sound like it's real simple, but there's like, there's just this mindset of making it not just the usability, but there's just. There's a mindset and a thought process that, I mean, you could try to replicate, right? You could try to have AI do it for you. But like, there's. There's just something about both yourself and AJ and Ashley as well, that, like that team, it's. You just. It's a team that essentially you cannot clone if you tried to. It's just. There's a lot of thought, empathy and like, like you said, just with the UX stuff alone, you know, probably all of us have been in situations where we're using something similar and have had frustrations and to be able to take that and apply that and then solve a problem with that, because it's not always, it's not always easy. Like sometimes you will try to do these things and you, you may not get the intended result that you're trying to solve for, but you, like, it just, it feels like everything on here, you've. You've been able to both look at it, identify it, tackle it, and then make it fun. And even, even the make it fun part is it sounds easy, but it's not. It truly isn't. So. Yeah, it's one of those things where, like, just looking at this and using this in the capacity I have so far is. There isn't a thing yet where I'm like, that's all right. It's like, no, this. This is pretty, like, even up to the, up to the point where the, the. The command line tells you, like, the, the day and time that you got to the page. And like, all this, like, there's like, little, I don't know, those little things to me. Like, I, you know, depending on, like, what site you're kind of looking at, if it's not a tech site, if it's not a thing, sure, some of those things get lost in the ether. But like, I think with the clientele that use this site, or we'll go through this site at some point, I don't think any of these tiny little details that are very thoughtful are ever going to get overlooked. So.

Well, and, and, and to your point, like, we did add, like, for instance, like, it does show the, the exact date and time that you load up the site and stuff like that. And like, and this is where, like, you know, Brooke and Ashley kind of reigned me in, because I am one of those people where, like, I will keep going with, like, little things when I have the extra time as anyway.

Say, no, you don't say, huh?

And. Right.

Everyone here's a very creative person.

And I had on there originally the actual remote IP address of your own IP when you go there.

I didn't know we were going to mention that.

So it was actually kind of funny because, like, I put it on there and like, everybody's testing. All of a sudden it was like, like, like at the same time, like Brooks being, Ashley picking me, John's being. They're like, pii, man, I don't think we can do that. I'm like, oh, that's right. So I mean. And it was a good idea, right? It was a funny idea.

It was a great idea.

Got your IP address, your credit score underneath that, like, yeah. Your experience score.

What do you. What's next? My Social Security number?

Like, yeah, exactly.

I was like, the jokes I was getting and I was like, oh, I did not even think about, like, I was thinking of it from the fun interactive. Like, hey, not. Wait a minute. And, like, yeah, you're right. We shouldn't put that on there. My gosh.

That's the wisdom piece that you're talking about earlier.

Exactly, exactly. And, you know, like. And some. And, like, I'll admit, sometimes the wisdom goes to the side for fun. And it's like, that's where, like, it's great to have, you know, two teammates that I was working with who literally, like, we all kind of held guard rails to each other in a great way. And it wasn't like, accusatory guardrails or anything. It was more like, hey, that is awesome, but we pii, man, I don't think we could do it. And I'm like, oh, my gosh.

Right.

So, like, we pulled it off, but, like, one of the things. And. And Dennis had this idea, and it was brilliant, but we also pulled it off because John brought up great points about it, is Dennis found a list of, like, fictitious or fictitious TV shows that have ever showed IP addresses.

Yeah. Like Silicon Valley, I think. Right.

Yeah. There was an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation where they had the IP address of the Enterprise, and we were going to have that be one of the IP addresses. But the problem is that could actually be a real IP address.

Yeah.

So, like, we can't really use it. And so, like, there's little things like that where, like, we tried to say, like, okay, well, you know, like, technically, like, a lot of these entertainment companies own the domain. Yeah. But now we're getting into, you know, copyright, and we're like, yeah, we're just 1, 2, 7. Let's do it.

Yeah. The weeds get kind of thick there, where you're kind of, like, spending more time, like, looking up copyright infringement or ip, you know, I mean, than you are, like, building. So.

Yeah, and that's. And that's where we said, okay, like, you know, the time limit for this particular piece that we're building is over. You know, log it as an issue of a future thing maybe, but we got to move on to the next thing. And. And again, that's where, like, the team was really great of working with each other, going, okay, I think we spent too much time now. Next thing we got. We got to keep moving.

Yeah.

And, like, that's where. That's why, like, we have. What we have now is we had some extra. We pulled away, we pulled back, and we said, okay, next thing. Right.

Well, I was going to ask You. How much money did you have to bribe Anton to get a testimonial from him?

Nothing. It was reused. No, it's. So some of the testimonials you'll see are the same testimonials from the previous page. So we did reuse some components, but we definitely like updated them. And you know, we have been looking for like other comments and stuff as they come around. So in the past, like it was like set it and forget it. Expect now, like that's going to be a lot. You're going to see things switching out a lot more on the site. There's going to be a lot more customization coming.

And I think that's one of those examples where the whole. Well, we have to have a testimony or we have to have a slider. Why? Because we need a slider. You got to have a slide. Like, what's going to be the function for it? This is one of the, like, the examples of like. It always surprises me where like people try to match functionality to a site, but they don't match it to anything. They match it because like someone says they need to have it or that's the next coolest thing. I just, I. I think there's, there's something to be said about like when, when a site, whether it's a one pager or whether it's an entire like 500 page, like business site, whatever it is, like the functionalities that are tied to something meaningful, I think speak volumes because like you can kind of tell when something's just, I don't know, I don't want to say cheesy, but like in a certain level they, they do seem to like, give off that vibe, right? When someone's using it just so you can say you've used it, right? Like now we're, you know, we're, we're techie. We're this like, look at all the cool things on our site. But then it's like it doesn't really do anything. Like this slider tells a story, right? It tells multiple stories. So it's, it's use case is like chef's kiss, right?

It's perfect.

So, yeah, I think that's one of those things too. And plus, I just wanted to tease Anton and 2 and 2. I mean, we maybe had to bribe him as well, but. Or maybe because they were, you know, they've been guests on the show. They were like, you know, we know Nick, so it's cool. We'll be so. But I mean, either way, I, I do, but I Do think like, again, like, it's just these use cases of like these certain functionalities and these certain UI aspects are. They just speak volumes, right? Because I don't know too many people try to cram too much stuff into one 5 pound bag and it unfortunately, like it's very obvious when that happens. And yeah, no, this is, this is one of those ones where it's, it's the, the use cases are perfect for every single thing that's on here. So just a big shout out to that for sure. Let's turn. I want to ask is, was there any other. Actually because you had mentioned aj, we were talking a little bit about like with the use of AI and everything, was there any other type of like AI incorporations that you guys did with, you know, with any of the. Whether it's creation or even like maybe some of the groundwork to like set some of this stuff up that you and the team used?

Yeah, I mean, like I said, we used Cursor and you know, shout out to bj, who's been on the podcast before, they have the Elevate theme, as many know that theme within HubSpot. And they were really awesome in saying like, hey, because it's a react based theme, like, come take a look. And then they were also queuing us into like cursor rules, right? Like we've used cursor rules in the past, but not in the way in which they were using them, which is like a full rules folder versus an individual file. So we got to like learn a little bit about cursor rules from bj and then that's. Honestly, we put in a really big set of rules that did tons of different stuff for us. And it wasn't like we did it once. We were constantly updating these rules, constantly changing what the parameters of the rules were that we were asking for for cursor. And that really did help level set a lot of things. One of the, I would say the biggest rules that we did was when we were building modules. Everybody always wants that one solution for a module that's like, yeah, but I have these fields that every module needs to have. But every time I create a module, I got to remember to link it. I got to remember to do this, I got to remember to do that. We ended up setting up rules in place where literally all we had to say to cursor was, hey, I'm going to be making a module, build me the base. Here's the name of the module and everything. And it built the base functionality with Wrapping sections and then it would build out the actual fields JSON to include all of the elements that we wanted it to be and everything. Because we had shared field settings for some modules and it just includes them automatically and included all of our wrappers that we had done. And anything we needed to get a base shell of a module ready was now, instead of us having to set it up and maybe spend 30 minutes configuring all the code and doing everything, was literally a two second question to AI. And then boom, it created the base for us. Then all we had to do was go in and add in the rest of what that module was supposed to be. That's just one example. But Brooke, do you want to talk to the documentation stuff that we did? Because that was pretty crazy.

Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, using AI to create the documentation that is just like we mentioned, sometimes that can be like an afterthought. But ultimately having documentation is important. Even if you're working on an internal project. Like this was an internal project because you know you're going to have people coming in and out who are working on this with you and you know, team members can change and different things like that. So having robust documentation is just like part and parcel of creating a good project, but it's very time consuming and like, you know, if you've been working on a module for like two days, you might honestly forget like what you added to that module or like how to even set it up and stuff like that. So having the documentation be generated by AI, we gave it a consistent structure, how we wanted the documentation to look, the sections that we wanted, all that good stuff inside of the rules that AJ was talking about. Then we would just say, hey, now that we've created this, write up a documentation on how to use this. It would just spit it out to you in a markdown file. And it was super easy to do and it saves a lot of time to do it that way. I think that's the biggest thing that I use AI for is things like that where it's like, yeah, I could do this, but it's going to take me two hours and is that worth my time? And I can actually just like ask AI to do it and they'll do it just fine to the level that I want it to do. And then I can focus on the more important things, which are like strategizing and thinking about, like, how do we get the. The, oh my gosh, I can't think of the word right now. Analytics. How do we, how do we Figure out the analytics and make sure that we are optimizing for AI search and those kinds of things, because those are important questions that AI can't answer. But AI can create you a document about how this thing was created and how to use it in like, five seconds.

Did either of you have any arguments with Cursor? I've just recently, like, been using it to do some stuff with themes, and I found myself having arguments with it being like, why are you doing this? Why? Why aren't you listening to me? I, like, I find myself, like, I almost. I almost have to kind of go back to, like. There was that episode we had with Caitlin Seegers where it was about, like. Like, when you're having a conversation, like, digital conversation, whether it's with a person or not, like, to try to just be a little bit more human. And I was like. I was literally, like, getting mad at, like, why are you doing this, Cursor? Like, what did you.

Are.

You're not listening to me. And I was just like. And I was watching myself type, and I'm like, what?

Like, what am I doing?

Like, what is. It was. It was a really weird kind of like, I had to check myself at the door there and be like, leave your attitude out there, bro.

I have a really funny example of that. So I was, like, working one day and my husband was here because sometimes he works from home too. And I was, like, asking Cursor to, like, do something for me. I don't even remember what it was, but, like, it literally just said something, and I'm all like, that doesn't exist. I was like, this is not even real. And they're like, oh, you're so right. I'm sorry I lied. I'm like, why did you make this up? I was so dumb. I was like, this is. And the biggest thing that is sometimes an issue with AI, and hopefully it's better if you use the dev MCP that we just released, is sometimes HubSpot has a unique way of making things work with the code. And so when I'm using the UI components, when I have different things that I'm trying to set on it, sometimes it'll write the code incorrectly, or it'll give me an option that's not even available on that UI component. And I'll be like, that's not even a thing. How you can hover over something and you can see what is actually defined on that, and the documentation inside of it will say, these are the only options you have on this, like, typescript thing. And I'm like, AI, what are you doing? Like, are you not even listening to, like, what is there? So sometimes I'm just like, I like when you code for me, but I also have to, like, check your code, like, every five minutes.

Yeah, no, I have absolutely 100. Yeah, I always. I always find it weird because it, like, it literally, I can see how you could just, like, lose track of. Because it's. It's believable, you know, at a certain point and especially if you're just trying to test things out and you're trying to, like, work your way around something, you're not familiar with it just like, yeah, this guy's red. Absolutely. Let's do it. Put it into the. Put it into my cursor rule so next time I don't have to ask again. So. But yeah. Yeah.

Well, it's actually funny that you asked about, like, having the argument, because that is literally what I did in the middle of this project is. It was. I forgot what night it was. I was working on it, but I got to a point where I was like, you know what? I've done a lot of work with crap cursor, like, back and forth, trying to solve things. I'm curious what it knows. Like, can it actually remember everything we've done? So I literally just started chatting with it. And what was interesting is I was like, you know, tell me, like, give me a summary of, like, what you think the project is so far and how. And, like, how it's coded. You know, how are we doing? How's this? And it started like, you know, talking back and being like, oh, you know, like, you're moving in this direction or you're going like that. And I said, okay, well, do me this. Like, you've had to reach out to our developer docs a lot, right? Like, you've had to reach out to documentation elsewhere to provide me all of the information you have. What are the gaps? What's missing? What did you not get when you went out to look for it, that I can help work better for you? Believe it or not, it actually started documenting that.

Yeah, it was very cool.

In the documentation that we did, we modified the rule about halfway through the project. And now not only if you were to look at our folder structures, you would see every module folder, and inside of every module folder is an MD file of changes that were made to the module. And then literally it will say, hey, on this particular document, you should update XYZ to have more of a kitchen sink example or more of that. And it's like now it's telling me what the LLMs need in order to better perform. So a lot of it was literally, and I highly recommend anybody just have a chat with their own cursor thing when they're building. Ask it to start self documenting. Ask it to start doing these things. Because what I didn't expect was the self documentation of literally like how it's working. Because then it started documenting how it was building certain things and why it was building it that way because of XYZ or because of what it looked up here and was doing it. So it really started to grow into this almost like network of information that literally it was just like, okay, well I'm just going to set and forget it. And then afterwards we're compiling all of that now and we're looking at that and reviewing that and going, okay, yeah, is it just a. I didn't understand how the doc was written. Could be. Or is it literally like, yeah, we didn't have this parameter example on there. Oh man, we did miss one. And that's where cursor has come in very handy in that.

Yeah, the parameter thing. Yeah. Like what examples am I? Or is the documentation missing? I mean closer and closer to Iron Man's Jarvis every day. Like at this point it's almost like cursor, do you love me? Boolean 1 or 0? Like, you know, but yeah, but that's a good, I, I like that type of like, that's a really good mentality as far as like, not just like a, like almost like a ping pong match, like a back and forth. But like go out and tell me like of the things you're using to convince me like what could change there? Like, you know what I mean? Because maybe the source that you're referencing needs to be different or something like that. That's actually, I hadn't really actually thought about it like that because it's also.

Interesting because like you can see cursor when it's thinking and it kind of like tells you what it's thinking about. And it was interesting to start seeing the, like the words that I was typing or the keywords that were being said to it start surfacing in its own like thinking or like one of the big things, like accessibility. Right, we talked about that. Reduced motion was a big thing for me in terms of accessibility. Because the last thing I would want is somebody to visit one of our sites and example a seizure because of flashing imagery. Nobody wants that. One of the big things is we want to respect Reduced motion if the browser asks for it. I put that into one of the rules of, hey, we really need to check on reduced motion or whatever. Without even thinking about it, it started building in backup classes and reduced motion and like that to CSS functionality and like, any kind of animation functionality we had. And it was things where, like, we may not have thought about it in that exact moment, but because we thought about it early on and we put a rule in place to always think about it, it was always top of mind. So it was basically like having another developer that we would look at and go, hey, remember this for when I'm building? And they go, okay, we'll remember it for you. Don't worry. You just keep doing what you're doing. I'll check it. And that's where I think it came out. Pretty beneficial for us, for sure.

Awesome. Very nice. We're almost running up on time, so I don't want to keep you guys too much longer, but the very last thing I would love to know is, like, if you're.

If.

If. Let's play game. I've never. Let's pretend I've never seen this site before and I've never been to it, and I'm about to go to it now. What is, like, the one thing. If you had to pick one thing, and I know there's. There's plenty of things here that are really fantastic, but. But if there was one thing that you really needed to brag about or wanted to, like, wanted me to focus on, like, what would that one thing be? And it can be at any level. Like, let's say I don't know anything about coding, which some might argue that's true. Or, you know, or I could be a, you know, a seasoned veteran as far as development, like, what is the one thing that you would want? If I could only go here, let's say, like, I can only go for like a couple seconds and then I had to, like, close out. What is the one thing that you would hope as an individual going here, I saw. It's a good one, isn't it?

Yeah.

Not.

Not to brag or anything, but only.

A couple of seconds.

Yeah. Honestly, I would say if you're new to starting out the get started menu, we really did take a lot of craft and care and strategizing into the multiple paths that people can take, you know, who are coming to the site, whether you're new, you're experienced, you're seasoned. We wanted to be able to solve for everybody. So I would say definitely take A look at the menus. And honestly, if you are listening to this and you're looking at get started and you're like, yeah, but you're not getting. Hit us up, let us know, give us feedback, tell us. Yeah, we want to be as connected to the community with this site because, yes, we built the site, we're hubs, it's our site, but it's our site in ownership. In reality, the site is for the developers and it's really theirs as an information resource. So tell us what we're missing on there and what you need because we want to make sure we provide it for you.

Yeah, I would agree with AJ about the get started thing. I think that that's like the biggest takeaway. That's why it's top of the website HS get started.

And I like how it caters to, to like learn the basics if you're like. So it's, it takes into consideration that level of technological level of the individual. So, yeah, no, that's fantastic. Well, I, I gotta say thank you both for coming on and talking about this because it was something where, I mean, obviously being related to one of the people that worked on it directly, I, I do realize the amount of work that went into it and both aj, Brooke and then Ashley as well. I really wanted to have as many of you as humanly possible come on and kind of talk about it and point out some of these really fantastic things that I hope that other people see. Like I'm seeing it when I'm looking at it and noticing these things and like the, the thought that goes behind all of it, so huge. Thank you to both of you and Ashley as well for doing this. Because again, the, you know, the, the, the, the iteration from what it was before to now in the time frame with the amount of care, it is an equation that I can only imagine had very, very little room for miscalculation. And if this is the end result, well beyond anything anybody could have ever imagined. So thank you both for making this humanly possible and AI possible too. I'll give Cursor a little bit of credit. I mean, that's fine, I mean, if we have to, but. But no, thank you both so much. Is there anything else that you guys wanted to shout out about the site or any other thing you're working on that you wanted to mention?

I think just the last thing I want to say is also check out naturally, the developer documentation Mint L5 platform is powering it. It's a beautiful solution. That team also worked very, very Hard to get everything running and going in the way that it is and I'm floored by their output as well. It's a fantastic site and it really was a lot of co working and just cross functional organization just to stay on track together to make sure that we could all launch around the same.

I just wanted to tease that I am currently working on something as part of our Devrel Labs initiative here at HubSpot that is specifically tailored to AI. Just look for that in the coming few months.

Nice. And check out the blog as well because there's plenty of information. I mean there's, there's multiple places that HubSpot not just the Academy and other, you know, it. There's stuff on the blog as well that it's just. I mean there's a wealth of knowledge there and it's like every one of them that you can get your hands on and like dig into is only going to be a net benefit for people. So check that out as well because Brooke did a fantastic job and put a lot of work into that. So.

Yeah, definitely. And I do want to give one more special shout out to both Brooke and Ashley because one of the things with working on this project is we kind of all had our ideas but then there were times where like we had to break away and just kind of silo and work in silos and it's almost as if like we were all reading each other's minds because every time something was brought up and like surfaced internally, like, hey, I finished this. What do you all think it was like? That is literally what I was thinking in my head of doing. Like I. It was like one of those things. It's like get out of my head. Like it was crazy.

Like AI, it's spying on all of you. That's why you just don't realize it yet.

I was probably going to get ads soon for it on something.

It's like my Google home. Essentially. It's doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah. But no, thank you both. I really appreciate it. And you know, as always, without. Without people listening, without people sharing, that's the only way that we as a podcast, you know, get kind of recognized. So you always. The only website you'll ever need, of course is going to be devs. After darkpod.com you'll see a list of all the episodes, a little bit about the show. I plan on putting some shorts up there as well because I'd be remiss if I didn't take some of the dumb stuff I say and put it into short little YouTube clips and so everyone else can laugh at me like my co workers do. So you'll be able to check that out very soon as well. And then, of course, like I said, multiple, multiple paths that you can learn at HubSpot. And you should definitely not sleep on this one. And that's at HubSpot developers, our YouTube channel, where you're going to find videos from, not just ones like this from our podcast, but Brooke as well, and others, you know, people from the community. So you're definitely going to want to check that out as well. And like I said, subscribe like it means the world to us. And, you know, we, we really, we wouldn't be able to do this if people weren't watching, watching, so we really do appreciate it. And, you know, I'll kind of leave it with this because we're giving shouts out. And you probably noticed that in the last couple episodes we, you know, Dennis will be back. So Dennis, you know, we, we, we miss you and love you, boo.