How Has Inbound Changed? with HubSpot's Ultimate Helpful Human, George B. Thomas [HubHeroes, EP70]

Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are you plagued by siloed departments? Are your lackluster growth strategies demolishing your chances for success? Are you held captive by the evil menace Lord Lack, Lack of time, lack of strategy, and lack of the most important and powerful tool in your superhero tool belt knowledge. Never fear, Hub Heroes. Get ready to don your cape and mask, move into action, and become the Hub hero your organization needs. Tune in each week to join the League of Extraordinary Inbound Heroes as we help you educate, empower, and execute Hub Heroes. It's time to unite and activate your powers. Before we begin, we need to disclose that Devin is currently employed by HubSpot at the time of this episode recording. This podcast is in no way affiliated with or produced by HubSpot, and the thoughts and opinions expressed by Devin during the show are that of his own and in no way represent those of his employer.

Thank goodness we don't have to worry about that today.

Yeah, but you see what I did there? Like, I just let it play because I know usually you yell at me because you like that kind of legalese like, thing.

Do we call it yelling or do we want to say constructive coaching?

Constructive coaching. That's what I mean. That's what I meant.

Yeah.

Constructive coaching. Exactly. Exactly. 100%. But it's actually pretty lonely here today. I finally come back because I was out last week.

Yeah.

And now we've abandoned. We've been abandoned by both Devin and Maximus. Neither of them can join today.

Yeah. There are too few less humans here today for sure.

Yes.

Oh, yeah. Get that out.

Right out of the. Out the gate in the beginning. There you go.

However, when we found out this morning that it was just going to be the two of us, I said in a very threatening tone, good. I have plans.

Yeah.

Because I am. I have very selfish designs on today's episode, so. And I want to explain why. George.

Yes.

Let's just rip the bandit off.

Okay.

You are in the hot seat today.

I know.

I am focusing entirely on you, and here's why. You are kind of a unique cat.

Oh, boy.

In the inbound world. I mean, let's be honest. Dan Tyer, the one and only Dan Tyre told you a couple of years ago that you are inbound in human form.

Yeah.

Now, for those of you listening who may not know George's entire backstory, let me just run down the roster here a little bit because really figure. Yeah, it's really important to understand the discussion of why we are. I am having this discussion with you today, you have charted a remarkable course.

Through the inbound industry for more than a decade.

You started as a website guy and.

At a small agency in Ohio before.

Discovering HubSpot in 2012, which.

An experience.

That's an experience you've talked about and how it changed your life.

Yeah.

Although one of my favorite things that.

You talk about from that time is being the website guy at that small.

Agency is you're like, energy drinks and.

Doritos went in, websites came out. And I just thought that was always really cool. You were that guy.

You also worked closely with Marcus Sheridan of they ask, you answer Fame and his agency. The sales lies in Lion. Then you and I actually met when you came to Impact, when Marcus merged with Impact, and then you went on to Impulse Creative. And now today, you are the owner of your own HubSpot agency.

Yeah.

Something that you flat out, to my face less than two years ago told me that you never wanted to do, but today you're proud of it.

Yeah, yeah.

And all during that time. No, go ahead.

Yeah, yeah, chime in.

I mean, there's a couple of things. Like, what's fun is I was just on another podcast being interviewed and telling some of that story, Liz. And one of the thing that's is fun to always kind of let people know is I worked with Marcus Sheridan before there was a book. They ask, you answer. Like, he would do the content training and I would do the HubSpot training. And out of that and out of the success and what he had done at River Pools, the. The book came out of that. And so that's a fun piece. But then, you know, June 2022, I got you to help me with voice and tone for GeorgeB Thomas.com because I started George B. Thomas LLC. I had a buddy of mine, by the way, his name's Mick Hunt, say, dude, you need to find a name for your agency. And I'm like, I'm not really starting an agency. I'm a. I'm a lifestyle brand. I'm going to find a couple of clients, I'm going to teach them how to use HubSpot, and. And I'll. I'll walk off into the sunset as the HubSpot guy. And needless to say, the universe had something else planned. And you're right, Liz. Literally, as we're recording this earlier today, I was working on some pages for the agency website because we are blatantly going to be and are showing up as an agency scaling like an agency in different ways, training, onboarding, optimizing, processing, click upping in the manner of agency. And honestly, again, in that last podcast I was being interviewed in, I got invited to be part of a group of agencies that like to work together. And I said, I'm in. I'm in. I want to. I want to be with my people so that I can lead the way. And God, I never thought I would say that in a million years.

You're having a Little Mermaid moment. I want to be where the agency.

There we are. That's it. That's it. I love.

That's where you are now.

I am. I am.

And we're going to. We're going to be talking about that. By the way, if you think I'm. That that answer is going to satisfy the questions I have for you on your about face. You are.

I was hoping that that would just be like. And now we can move on to HubSpot tools.

So constructive coaching. No, absolutely not. But let's dig in more into your career because here's what I find fascinating about it. So in addition to all of those things, what you've done in parallel is you have become a great kind of inbound scientist. Right. You've never slouched when it comes to experimentation with inbound. And you've also been a keen observer of how inbound and HubSpot has evolved.

Over the years from your unique vantage point. You know.

Right.

You've been the web guy, the inbound.

Innovator, the educator, the sidekick, the inbound leader, the HubSpot helper, and now the HubSpot agency owner who is looking to challenge other agency owners to stop pointing at the agency model as the problem.

When we have an opportunity to reshape what it is that we do.

So today, my brother, you are in the hot seat.

Yeah. It's the deep end of the pool.

Yeah. Because, you know, when it's just you and me, Bunny, you can't hide. You can't be like, devin, what's your answer to this?

I know.

Question.

And I just.

You.

I love when I have my floaties with me and I can just be like, okay, keep me a. Not today at Sink or Swim.

Not today. So here's what we're going to do. Okay.

Yep.

I want you to tap into this reservoir knowledge. Be willing to get uncomfortable because I believe you can help all of our listeners at home with some of your unique big picture perspectives that can help them shape their inbound decision making in the coming year.

Yeah.

Because I don't know about you, I.

Have a really hard time Charting a course strategically for where I want to go if I do not have a clear understanding of two things. One, where I am right now and two, how the heck did I get here?

Yeah.

So what do you think? Sound good?

Yeah. I am going to do my best to provide answers that hopefully add value and allow people to unlock what might not feel like it's possible at this point, but will be in the future.

And also shout out to Chad in the live audience today, you are right. It is all about legally binding contracts for L. You are 100% correct.

Without a doubt.

So.

And constructive coaching, by the way. Legally binding contracts and constructive coaching.

Constructive coaching. So how do you feel going into this conversation today? Excited? Nervous?

Can I be excitedly nervous? Can I be.

But like, you could be nervous side.

You could be nervous sighted. Yes. We're just going to make up words on this episode because we can. You know, there is a little bit of intrepidation. Like, listen, I'm. I'm taking steps out to the beginning of a journey to vocalize things that are still running around in my cranium. I honestly didn't ever think that I would be thinking or conversations that I would be starting. And I'm curious, cautiously curious how these are going to land on some humans. But. But I'm willing to go there and have this conversation.

You know me, George. And honestly, if we have any listeners who also listen to our beyond your default podcast, the fact that I'm going to ask a question asking you to define a word.

Yeah.

Will not be surprising because one of my biggest sticking points as a word nerd and our resident content strategist here is I like to start from a place of shared definitions. So I want for the listeners at home, I want us to shove aside anything that HubSpot has printed on their website, any certification that we've seen, anything at all. George, in your words, how do you define inbound today?

Yeah, to me. And again, I don't want to go into like all the, and I may towards the end of this, but I don't want to start with like all the things that you do that equal inbound marketing or inbound sales. Where I want to start with when I think about inbound today, the word inbound from a business standpoint, it's how do you create yourself to be a couple things. One, how do you create yourself to be the biggest magnet that you possibly can to attract the most humans that you can that happen to be the right fit for the thing that you love to do? Product or service you provide. The great attractor, right. How do you become the great attractor of the right humans to be able to help? The other thing when I think about inbound that you're turning yourself into or you want to think about or B is how do you become sticky? So once you, once you attract, how to become sticky. And what I mean by that is I have people that have been working with me for over three, maybe even four, some even five years. And what I mean by that is they've worked with me across multiple agencies or known about me in multiple agencies and then decided to work with me immediately when we started the agency. And if you do a quick Google search of the typical retainer length for most marketing or sales agencies, well, you go Google that and you see what the average length is. And so this idea of being enough value to become a large magnet and continue to provide that value to be sticky. I rarely ever worry about the marketing dollars that we're going to spend to get people in, and I rarely worry about anybody escaping out the back door. Unfortunately, those are the two places that most businesses and most agencies spend a lot of their time and their employees time and their agency money is trying to get new eyeballs, new leads, new and oh, crap, we just had everybody or most people exit out the back door. And if you can stop both of those, then you live in a really interesting and different place from a business owner or even a set of employees that get the pleasure of living in that different ecosystem. Now past magnetizing yourself and being sticky, which I heard your ooh, I just kept on going. It's a lot different than it once was. Right? It used to be, I'll call it pure, where it wasn't about calling anybody and it wasn't about direct mail and it wasn't about running ads. It was about pure content, baby, and being human on social and adding value. And back in the day, it was about having some weak blog tool and a couple keyword tools inside of, like, something that you might be able to halfway send an email and hope that it went out. Most of the times that has changed. The software has changed, the methodology has changed a little bit. The humans that we're serving have changed. And so we have to realize, like when I say inbound, it's all the things in all the ways that you. And here's what I want to just throw out there. A lot of people will be like, oh, email's dead. All direct mail's dead. All billboards are dead. Ladies and gentlemen, first stake in the ground. Nothing on the planet is dead. It's dead when you do it shitty. And so Inbound means I am going to hold my business, my employees, and the people that are putting things out to an expectation of it being valuable, helpful human. Hat like, listen, I've. I've been chanting the happy, helpful, humble human for almost 12 years now.

That's the happy, helpful, helpful, humble. What?

Happy, helpful, humble humans. Oh, happy, helpful, humble humans for almost over 12 years now. And it's because it's an expectation that I've set for my Dan Tire. You're inbound in human form. An expectation that I've set for myself and by the way, for the employees or people that work at Sidekick Strategies. This is why Jorge Fuentes went from six certifications to 43 certifications in under a year. Because there's an expectation of creating yourself into a valuable human who can give back to the world selfishly and realize that what you reap is what you sow. And. And it will come back to you. I'll get off my podium or pulpit, whichever that was, for a hot second.

How about this?

I'm going to give you 30 seconds.

To hydrate because I have another question.

For you because you started tapping into where I want to go here, right? I think you know anybody who's listening to this podcast, likely you are. You are not a new kid on the inbound block, right? You've been around for a year or five or ten. And we all know, I think the obvious ways in which Inbound and HubSpot have changed, right? Like, we've seen more dimension get added. The platform itself has become a lot more complex. We're seeing more integration of, you know, instead of it just being, you know, a purity test. With Inbound, we've had multiple episodes recently where we've talked about how do you marry traditional outbound tactics with the inbound methodology, because they can all play nicely together. But what I would like to hear from you is setting aside the outcome, obvious ways in which the platform has changed, in which the methodology has evolved, I'd love to hear from you as someone who has had this front row seat in a variety of capacities, the ways in which Inbound and HubSpot have changed that are the most surprising to you, that if you were to go back 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, and say, this is where it's going to go, you'd be like, are you freaking kidding me right now?

Yeah, well, I mean, there's just so much to choose from. You got to remember back in the day, it was a marketing automation software. Literally that's what it was marketed. It was like marketing software. So the fact that it ever became a service tool with all of those pieces is, is crazy to me. The fact that we ever got to a point or are at the point that it's operations and, and literally have had sales conversations with operations humans that are like, oh, and we can use this for our marketing too. What, like what, wait, what, what universe did I just enter in organization? I can't tell you the amount of organizations that I'm now having conversations with. They're buying the sales tool first and then the realization that they could do marketing or their website or stuff with it. So it literally is churning into this CRM that is, dare I say, spanking the competition right now in, in the narrative that is happening now. Here's the other thing I used to joke back in 2015-2016 of like the next hub we need is E Commerce. And so the fact that E commerce is part of inbound because it's like, really? How did that happen? Or part of HubSpot, how did that happen? I can tell you there was a time where I lost my mind when they added the ads tool to HubSpot and I was like, this is, this is a travesty. Ads aren't inbound. Ads are outbound. They're annoying. That's why people have ad blockers, because they don't. But like, if you do ads right then, then ads can be inbound, you know, and so it's, it's all kind of like evolved. But here's what I am kind of most shocked about when it comes to inbound is the way that it has been flexible enough to work pre pandemic, during a pandemic and post pandemic because it's just some fundamental principles that when applied properly and, and you as a business owner or agency owner are focused on the humans that those principles, those principles just continue to work and they're, and they're able to be modified as needed. Hence why we've been having conversations around SMS and direct mail and ABM and, and, and I'm sure that some of the listeners are like, these people are losing their mind. What. Why are they not just talking about pure inbound and pure HubSpot? That's because, ladies and gentlemen, we have been, we just been trying to change your mind to the fact of what it is.

Completely agreed. It's so funny. I had similar reactions when that stuff started rolling out. You've, you've got a few years on me in terms of inbound veteran status, but I've been kicking around this inbound block now for more than a decade. And here's what I find fascinating about it is I had the same react when people started rolling some of this stuff out. Like, this is completely antithetical to the idea of inbound. This is completely flies in the face of everything that we're teaching with inbound marketing. And there was this weird kind of artificial purity test that we applied to it. And not to sound a little bit hokey or a little bit like Matthew McConaughey here, but the reality is, is that like inbound, I think for a lot of us, we did not realize we were treating it as a one dimensional set of marketing tactics when inbound is a state of mind, baby. And you can apply that state of mind to pretty much any. Like if you're going out there and you are being, if you are leading with a servant's heart, if you are showing up in emails, in ads, in SMS texting and the strategy and the decisions you made in order to develop the strategy to the content that you were serving up is built with a laser focus on being genuinely helpful, genuinely of service, genuinely there with a purpose and, and an intent that puts others ahead of yourself. That is what inbound is all about.

Yeah.

Genuine. Like just jot that word down in your notepad because it's, that's, that's where it's at. Like this, you know, this is not a fake it to a place with servanthood and love, hoping and praying that you can help that human, that organization or set abolish the chance of success or make them struggle longer than they need to to get to the place where that organization and those humans can change. And I know this is going to sound grandiose, but I've been, I've thought this way since 2013. It's about helping the individual human or set of humans in an organization so that they can have success, so that they can change the community and the community can change the city and the city changes the state and the state changes the and it goes on and on and on. And I'm literally this guy who has been dropping pebbles across the world, inbound pebbles to just see what waves would be able to happen to this, have global change in the way that people would do business.

I completely agree. Also as a side note, I'm thinking this year, inbound, when Hub Heroes does a live recording, I don't care if it's in the Parking lot outside of the convention center. We need to have swag that is our literal hub heroes branded backpack, snack notepad and a pen. Given how many times we're like, grab a snack and a backpack and a pad and a pen, that would be 100%. All right, swag aside, let's lean into this a little bit more deeply because we're starting to talk about mindsets, right? And how people might be thinking about inbound versus how they should be thinking about inbound. So there are a lot of different misconceptions, myths about inbound, but I would love to hear from you. What are the maybe 1, 2 or 3 most insidious, most costly misconceptions that most inbound practitioners have today, whether they're business owners, marketing leaders, sales folks, whomever.

Oh, you really do want me to get hate mail.

I do. Constructive coaching, email.

So, so, so first of all, so many people end up at the orange drinking fountain of HubSpot and start to use the software, and more now than historically, they have jack squat of what Inbound, the inbound methodology, the buyer's journey, or anything that HubSpot Academy used to educate almost the entire community on because they're simply buying HubSpot CRM and they're turning it up for a sales tool or a service tool and they're on their way. Like, so the lack of educating yourself around the method, the methodology, AKA the religion of why you're actually taking the actions is like just way different than it used to be. And it's, and it's, it's what you use the word. Insidious. I would call it insidious. So, like having a growth mindset, being able to lean into the actual methodology or religion of the inbound, tactics and strategies that you're applying and understanding why, why is it better, why should we do it? And your team understanding that like, it's not a silver bullet. It's not just another way to do business. Like it's, it truly is. You said it's a mindset, it's a lifestyle if you're really doing it right. And there's just so many, God, I am going to get hate mail. There's just so many people that say that they're doing business in an empathetic way. There are so many people that they want the outside of their brand to look nice and shiny and polished, but when you start to look a couple layers deeper, it's just a polished turd.

Okay, let's add some dimension to that turd. What are some examples of polished turds in the inbound space. Like, give me clear examples. Are you empathetic or are you really just blank?

No. So are you a value or are you just blank? Listen, I'm not going to name any names, but there have been multiple times where I've looked at other agencies on social platforms and said to myself, you are noise and you are nonsense. Like, what you are doing right now is of no value to anybody except for yourself. And that is not the inbound way. Right. I wish I had a Mandalorian helmet on. This is not the way. Like. And so you should. And I've even said I had a meeting with a pretty high up person in the HubSpot partner ecosystem. And I said, I really do believe we've reached a day where there needs to be a way that you can lose your citizenship to the partner program. Like, if you have an agency and you've made the website look great and you've got all the services that show that you're an inbound agency, but at the end of the day, your employees are burnout. They're not providing a good service and you're just, frankly, a douchebag. Why are you in the ecosystem anyway? I told you, I'm gonna end up getting hate mail. So if you're an agency owner, 99 chance I love you 1% chance you're the agency or agencies that I'm talking about. I apologize in advance if I've hurt your feelings. Let's move on.

So we're gonna. We're not going to do that. We're actually not going to move on because. So you, you jumped ahead in the storyline. So you know what? We're going to take a little sidebar here. We're going to take a little sidebar. If you excuse me, I'm now going to scroll through my questions from hell. George, since you brought up agencies, which I wasn't going to get to until later, I'm going to go ahead and skip to that. And then we're going to go back to the other stuff. Just talk to me about HubSpot agencies, because about a year ago.

Yeah.

You published an incredibly powerful article in which you passionately challenged the rising sentiment that the traditional inbound and HubSpot agency model is completely broken and instead said, we are the problem. Now, here's what I find fascinating about.

This that I want to underscore for.

The listeners before I get to this question.

What was funny is that this article came immediately following a conversation that you and I had where you were Talking about how you were thinking of growing your business. You were starting to realize that you were not a lifestyle brand, that, you know, you were. You went into this journey with one goal, and that was to genuinely help people. Because the great irony here is that even though you were leaning into the lifestyle brand, you were doing so. So you didn't actually have to focus on yourself. You were doing so from the perspective of, hey, I'm just a guy and I'm just here to help. Right.

Then what happened, though, is that you had more humans who needed your help, more humans than you expected showing up at your doorstep. Different humans than you expected. Because when you started, it was like looking at the business owners, looking at the market leaders. But then you started having agencies show up, too. Like the dimension and the volume radically shifted.

Yeah.

And so you and I had this conversation where you said, well, I'm not going to be an agency. And I said, well, why not just take it back? Because I. We. Then you and I had this radically candid discussion of having been to a number of inbounds over the past few years. We're seeing this trend of agency saying, well, we're no longer an agency. We're still doing agency stuff, but we're just not saying agency anymore. We just don't like it. There are shirts that will. L. People have literally worn that says, the agency model is broken. You took a stand and said, it isn't.

Yeah, we are the problem.

Yeah, talk to me about that.

Yeah.

By the way, what is that? An agency is an inanimate object. It's a word. It's the humans inside that word or that object or that building that actually create it to what it is. And so if it's broken, that's because the people inside of it is broken. Which, by the way, we're all human and we're. We're all human and we're all broken. But that's a whole different podcast, baby. I'm just.

We're all broken and dead inside. That's fine. If you are, go. Go to beyond your default.com and we can help you out.

I was gonna say that's a whole different podcast. That's beyondyourdefault.com podcast right there. But here's the thing. There's. I'm gonna answer this in probably what is a weird way, and that is there is a natural order to things. Okay. And I'm gonna step out of agency examples for a second and. And bear with me. Don't care about your religious beliefs or not, but this is gonna be a good explanation to get us to a place. Back in the day when I was a youth pastor, here was the natural order of things. There was the universe or God. There was typically a pastor and your youth pastor. There was the parents and then there was the children. And lo and behold, parents would come to the pastor or youth pastor and talk to them about how their children weren't learning the things that they needed to learn to become the children that they wanted them to be. And that's very interesting because you're the parents, you're the ones that are supposed to teach the children, yet you're trying to use somebody else as the scapegoat for why they're not learning the things that they're learning. We had them for an hour. You have them all the time. Think about how that is out of order. It literally should be that we're helping the parents, not that the parents are expecting this to be done. Agencies are the parents. Your clients are the children. You're expecting HubSpot and inbound to do all the work that you should be doing as the parent. I am telling you right now, you as a business owner, as an agency owner, if you were actually going to get this a little bit closer to the way that it needed to be, things would see and show themselves differently. I will ask you and. And I'm again, who I'm going to get. Hate mail. Look at the amount of people that have gone in and out of your doors over the time frame that you have been in business and really sit down and ask yourself, why is that? Did we never really focus on process like we should have focused on process? Did we never really focus on educating them the way that they could have been educated? Did we never really give them the space that they needed to become the human that we thought we hired or we wanted to hire? These are some hard questions. And they're questions that I ask myself, like, on a daily basis of like, am I being impatient? Am I actually leaning into the best that I can be? Am I just letting HubSpot Academy do what I should actually be doing? Because I'll trust listen you as an agency owner or business owner, even if you believe everything that HubSpot Academy teaches, you believe it in a different way, you think of it in a different way, you want to implement it in a different way. So how dare I sit there and expect my employees to be mind readers if I'm not putting in a process to educate them of whatever the GBT way or whatever your agency Is sidekick strategy? Whatever your agency is, what is your way? Like, are you being the visionary for your company? AKA so I'm trying to pull out of agencies by. I'm going back to businesses and agencies because I'm trying to like save my inbox through the rest of this episode. But are you being the visionary?

No. See, this is why I enjoy these types of conversations. Because I know whenever you start pulling.

On the hate mail rip cord, that usually means we're talking about something that.

Needs to be talked about.

Because I think here's one of my big beefs with inbound. Whether we're talking about agencies or businesses, it doesn't matter. This applies across the board.

One of the things that I've noticed.

Is, is that we tend to scapegoat faulty parties. Whether it's the agency model, our in house marketing teams, all of these other things. Because we're not saying the quiet part out loud. We're not saying, we're not admitting to ourselves what is broken because we're so desperately afraid that we're the problem.

And, and the thing is, you can't fix what's broken if you don't name it. Like, you gotta claim it. Like, like my. Listen, my ish was broken when I was saying I don't want to manage humans. My issue is broken when I said I just want to be a lifestyle brand. I was licking my wounds from 10 years of working at multiple agencies. So that's probably why I was saying those things. But when I had time to step back, to take a breath, to rethink things, this is why. And it was a while that when we did lean into the conversation, I was like, you know what? It's, it's just time. It's time to grab the mantle and it's time to move forward. And the quiet things that aren't being said. Liz, when you said that, my brain went immediately to this thing that I really battled, and that is agency. And you've created an ecosystem where there's nets, meaning nobody can fail, and there's ceilings, meaning nobody can fly. This to me is just an crazy place that I as a human would probably never stay at. We learn from our failures. Why are you trying to keep me safe so hard? The only way that I'm going to be able to fly is if I go through the hard times like lynda.com my way through my first agency where they give me a job and I would learn it the night before and go back to work and do it like it was there. Was no net at that agency. This is before wild boy. This, this, this is mind grab media. Which then turned into epiphany and like it was like you, you sank or you swam and so too many times I think it's like, oh, that's, that's okay, Billy. That's okay, Sarah. It'll be okay. We're an inbound business. What? We're, we're, we're up. Never mind.

No, what I find interesting about that.

Is it leads back into the original line of questioning here.

So I appreciate us going a little detour into agency land.

Skipping ahead a little bit in the outline.

I want to, I want to circle back now.

I might have Noah edit that whole part out. No, I'm just kidding. I won't, I won't. But it feels good to see.

I will find it and publish it.

Wow. Wow.

No, but this conversation leads nicely back to what we were talking about is. And I want to answer my own question first. So the question I want to ask you is why do you believe most inbound programs fail? And you just touched upon something that I think is really important because it speaks to why I think we're seeing a lot of culture problems within agencies, a lot of self hatred around the agency moniker as well as why inbound programs at In House within In House marketing teams are also struggling because there is a lack of true meaningful psychological safety around failure and experimentation. There's a lot of talk that I think is really important because it speaks to why I think we're seeing a lot of culture problems within agencies, a lot of self hatred around the agency moniker as well as why inbound programs at in house within in house marketing teams are also struggling because there is a lack of true meaningful psychological safety around failure and experimentation. There's a lot of talk in inbound of like, you know, fail fast and you know, you know, iterating and we're, you know, we're not going to get it right the first time. We're just getting a V1. But actually when things fail, it can become highly costly.

Yeah.

Now I understand that in some cases, you know, like hey, sometimes you mess up and it is a big ass boo boo and there needs to be some accountability, responsibility. Yeah, that's. But that is, that is wildly different.

From creating a two faced culture where you say it's okay to fail but you don't actually allow for any experimentation. I mean, as a content strategist, I've been doing this for over 10 years. I've written a lot of content about a wide variety of topics. And my content version of what you were just talking about is something I experience on a weekly basis. Earlier this week I had fun writing about the economy moving from globalization to deep inward globalization. And as I was writing it and researching, I'm like, I am, I understand 70% of what it is that I am saying. And the other 30% is going to come through research and re listening to this interview over and over again like a thousand times. Like there has to be this ability, this healthy safety net and healthy reach goals that allow people to move.

Well, I, I don't even know if it's because again I'm, I have this hang up with nets. But, but here's, here's what I'll say because it's one thing to say fail fast and then fire a sucker because they actually tried to do something different.

Or strange because they failed fast.

And so like, you know, it's, it's sweet. Anybody can Google quotes, anybody can watch an inspirational YouTube video and pick up something that somebody that said from st. This is our mantra. Until it isn't. Because it wasn't your belief structure. And I think that that's why maybe Dan Tyre said inbound in human form, because inbound became part of my belief structure. It be. It became part of just the way that I would do things and, and listen, over the last almost 12 years, I've probably done close to 3,000 HubSpot tutorials. And I will tell you, the amount of times that I cared if one was successful is zero. Every time I went to create a piece of content, it was because I wanted to see how it did, how people acted, if it caused interaction, if it caused engagement. I never once was like, I'm gonna create this video and it's gonna go viral. I never once turned on the mic to do a podcast and said, we're gonna get 10, 000 downloads or shut this bad boy down. It was all about having conversations. It was all about just seeing the results of what would happen based on the thing we would do. And it was an obnoxious amount of patience. And here's what I want to make sure that I say on this question. Most inbound things fail because we don't give it the time it needs to succeed. This is not a microwave strategy or business strategy. This is, this is the crock pot, baby. This is put it in, let it percolate, and when it does come out, it's going to be one of the most delicious meals ever. But you're gonna need to be a little patient and let it cook to the point where it's ready. And listen, do you have to let it percolate for 10 years? No. I could have probably cracked the crock pot after five years, but I personally wasn't ready. But you got to give it time. It has to be a set of beliefs, not a set of sayings. And. And listen, you have to care about the humans internally and externally more than you care about yourself. And that's hard to do. Like, some people are just not programmed that way. But, like, this is. These are the things that I'm willing to say and believe and put out into the world in the hopes that some people will see it as an aspirational point or that some people will come beside me and be like, this is how we believe, too. This is what we've been doing. Or this is what we want to do. Because I would love to have a handful of five, 10 agency owners or business owners that are like, yo, we just want to meet and keep each other's ish in check so that we can truly be doing inbound and HubSpot. In what happened in 2012, in a human way, you brought up a couple.

Of really good points there. Number one, you either care about the humans or you don't. And you can't fake it. And the more you try to fake it, it's going to become highly problematic. The other thing that's coming to mind here, too, is this idea of looking to inbound as a silver bullet. The moment you look at inbound that way is the moment that you fail. It reminds me a lot of why I like to joke that content is like sex in a marriage. It may not be the problem, but it's usually where. Yep. But we went a good barometer. If something's broken. Oh, 100%. I can't tell you how many times I've been the middleman, the content person in the middle of a website project. Right. I'm in between strategy and I'm in. And design.

Oh, yeah.

I'm.

I'm the homework you have to do before you get to the fun stuff. Cupcakes.

Yeah.

And I can't tell you the number of times I would end up on the hook. Because they had not solved fundamental business questions first before they got to content, they thought they would be able to scope out complex services through a copywriting exercise. And that is not how it works. And the reason why I bring that up is because it's the same thing as inbound. If you have deep trust issues between your sales and marketing teams. You are going to have to solve those problems before inbound is going to work for you. If you have a culture in which you prioritize revenue over humans, then you're going to have a problem. And I'm not saying revenue isn't important. I years ago stood up on a stage that says, I like content, that makes money. So, like, let me be very clear here. This is not an either or situation. But it's to your point. If you don't actually care about the people that you're serving, if you are not waking up in the morning to be of care, this is not an either or situation. But it's to your point. If you don't actually care about the people that you're serving, if you are not waking up in the morning to be of service to others, not your.

Bottom line, inbound is going to be challenging.

I love revenue, too. I love cash. It just happens to be a byproduct of what I love more. I love what I do. I love my job. I love helping people. I love being nerdy.

Service to others, not your bottom line.

Inbound is going to be.

Yeah, I love revenue, too. I love cash. It just happens to be a byproduct of what I love more. I love what I do. I love my job. I love helping people. I love being nerdy. Oh, wow. It's amazing. Like, money shows up in the bank and that's cool. And what's really crazy is when you start to, like, think that way. Money's like a resource. It turns into. It's not even, oh, wow, it's amazing. Like, money shows up in the bank and that's cool. And what's really crazy is when you start to, like, think that way. Money's like a resource. It turns into. It's not even like a thing that you once thought it was. It's just like, that's cool. Great.

Well, think about one of our shared clients. I. I love their ethos about what they do. Sound financial group. They're absolutely incredible folks based in Mississipp. And one of the things that they always talk to with their clients is that once you stop looking at money as the goal and as a tool to achieve what you really want to achieve, you'd be surprised what becomes possible.

And that's kind of the same thing with inbound, right?

Like, inbound is a tool. Revenue is not the goal, but it is an output of what you are trying to achieve with inbound. And that is to Truly be of service to solve real problems, not imagined ones.

Yeah.

And I think that's critically important here. All right, quick pivot.

And like a thing that you once thought it was, it's just like, that's cool. Great.

Well, think about one of our shared clients. I. I love their ethos about what they do. Sound financial group. They're absolutely incredible folks based in Mississippi. And one of the things that they always talk to with their clients is that once you stop looking at money as the goal and as a tool to achieve what you really want to achieve, you'd be surprised. Are there any ways in which Inbound or HubSpot still fall short for you? Whether that's unanswered questions or just wish.

List items that you are already looking.

Forward to talking what becomes possible.

And that's kind of the same thing with inbound.

Right. Like, inbound is a tool.

Revenue to Inbound Santa about later this year.

Inbound Santa. I love that, you know, the, The. The big one was E Commerce. Right. But I will say that one thing I've learned over the last 10 to 12 years is not the goal, but.

It is an output of what you are trying to achieve with inbound, and that is.

Is when you do it. Right. Another byproduct of doing inbound correctly, other than revenue, is community. And the fact that humans decide that they want to hang around with you, your organization, they'll go to all of your events, they'll download all your ebooks that, whatever. Like, if you do it, they're. They're down for it, truly be of.

Service to solve real problems, not imagined ones. Right.

And there's no real good community platform. Like, sure, you got CMS and you got a theme and you can kind of bake something out. Yeah.

And I think that's critically important here. All right, quick pivot.

Quick pivot. Are there any ways in which Inbound or HubSpot still fall short for you? Whether that's unanswered questions or just wish.

List items that you are already looking.

Forward to talking out?

And, and there are maybe some that are like tens of thousands of dollars that you might be able to plug in. But like, literally, when we wanted to build the community, we had to go to a different platform to be able to pull off the things that we.

Wanted to do to Inbound Santa about later this year.

Inbound Santa. I love that, you know, and that while it made me happy that we could start the community, it made me sad that it wasn't easy to do on HubSpot. And so if I was to talk to inbound Santa, I'd be like, oh, inbound. The, the big one was E commerce, right? But I will say that one thing I've learned over the last 10 to 12 years on Santa, if we could just have this like set of features that let us turn our customers into a community.

Because by the way, a community hub, perhaps.

A community hub, you can call it whatever you want. I'm so tired of hubs. Like, it just needs to be one tool. But like if you really want them to be an evangelist, they're going to be an evangelist if they're part of your community. And so like, sure, it's dope that we have this life cycles is when you do it right. Another byproduct stage that we can say, oh, they've gone from customer to evangelist. Now what with. Now what? Like, they need a place to live. They need a place to feel special. They need, they need a place to evangelize. And we just, we got of doing inbound correctly. Other than revenue, we got none of that right now, at least in an easy way. And so, so that would be one thing I'd ask inbound Santa to realize that maybe we don't have to let all the elves live in the North Pole.

They're, they're hate mail express. Choo choo.

Like they're.

Anyway, what do you mean, George? What does that mean?

Is community and the fact that humans decide. Like, listen, if you go to georgebthomas.com and you go to my about page, you'll realize quickly that I really, I really only have one rule in life. No douchebags that they want to hang around with you, your organization, they'll go to all of your events, they'll download all your ebooks that whatever, like if you do it, they're, they're down for it. Loud.

Yeah.

And well, I mean there's some people using HubSpot. Listen, I fired my first client within the first six months of being in business because I was like, you're not a good fit. So bye.

Right?

And there's no real good community platform. There are people who are providing inbound services that I would never think about tapping them into. Like help my clients. There are many that I would like, hey, let's work together because they need this thing and you're awesome. There are plenty. So like it's, it's six one way, half a dozen the other. Do you let them in and hope that you can be next to them and like, sure, you got cms and you got a theme, and you can kind of bake something out, and. And there are maybe some that are like, tens of thousands of dollars. Change them. Or do you just look at certain people and go, these are not the droids you're looking for, and let them just go on. Have you heard of parlors that you might be able to plug in? But, like, literally, when we wanted to build the community, we had to go to a different platform to be able to pull off the things that we wanted to do. Have you heard of Aliqua, Par Dot? Salesforce? Marketo.

Marketo.

What is it? Wish pond, Sharp spring? Like, act. What? Just list them all out and be like, there are other playgrounds that might be. And that while it made me happy that we could start the community, it made me sad. Right. For now, I know inbound Santa will always look at me and be like, and you're crazy, bro. Like, that would be the last.

Everybody has the capacity for change. No, but.

But that's. That it wasn't easy to do on HubSpot. And so if I was to talk to inbound Santa, I'd be like, oh, inbound. That's a couple things that I would be like, okay, this would. This would be nice.

Okay, I got a couple more questions before we wrap up today's conversation. So first, as you look to the horizon.

Yeah.

Where would you challenge business leaders across all departments?

So, Santa, if we could just have this, like, set of features that let us turn our customer, whether we're talking.

About owners, marketers, sales, service ops, folks, whomever. Where would you challenge those folks to push themselves with inbound and HubSpot to see the best results? Whether we're talking about strategy, technology, or human capital.

Wow.

I know. A very softball question.

I mean, shoot.

I know.

Like, there's. I mean, there's so many things rolling through my brain. Like, I immediately want to be, like, wolfers into a community.

Because, by the way, a community hub, perhaps.

A community hub. You can call it whatever you want. I'm so tired of hubs. Like, it just needs to be one tool. But, like, focus on the vision of where you're trying to go. And then I. Immediately after that would be like, and you got to start thinking strategically. Then after that, I'm like, and give your employees room. Build a culture that they can fail. And test, test, test, test, test, test. In. In failure is lessons. Lessons help us grow. Like, there's. But there's all these, right? Like, sure, you need to have the right amount of human. If you really want them to be an evangelist. They're going to be an evangelist for the amount of revenue so you can provide a good service. And there's a delicate bounce balance between that and you need a content if you're not creating content and the right content list if they're part of your community. And so, like, sure, it's dope that we have this life cycle stage that we can say, oh, they've gone from customer to evangelist. Now what? Now what? Like, they need a place to live. They need a place to feel special. They need. They need a place to evangelize. And we just, we got. And then the right amount of value or type of content. Like, are you writing blogs? But you should. Making videos. Are you making videos? But you should be podcast like.

George, I'm gonna interrupt.

Hang on, hang on, hang on.

These are checklist items.

Getting somewhere. I'm getting somewhere. Like, all right, all of that runs in, into, into like my brain flooding in. But the thing that I'm gonna actually say, and it might not be super, we got none of that right now, at least in an easy way. And so, so that would be, yeah, let's do that. And it might not be a super. Like, oh, I understand exactly what he means. Man, you gotta focus on love. One thing I'd ask inbound Santa to realize that maybe we don't have to let all the elves, like, the love of your team, the love of what you do, the love of the people that you serve, the. The love to create the best product, not just a product you can sell, live in the North Pole.

There, there, hate mail express.

Like, listen, like so many of us spend so much time doing we hate. Like, they're anyway.

What do you mean, George?

What does that mean with people we don't like? I just don't get it. I don't get it. I would much rather make less money doing something for people that I love. That's your focus out of that. Like, listen, if you go to georgebthomas.com and you go to my about page, your revision will come out of that. Strategy will come out of that. Having a human focus will come. A human strategy will come. A human belies quickly that I re. I really only have one rule in life. No douchebags. Business will come because fundamentally, when that love and empathy and the. The core principles, core values of what Truly inbound cloud.

Yeah.

And well, I mean, there's some people using HubSpot. Listen, I fired my first client within the first six months of being in business. Because I was like, you're not a good fit. So by kind of was trying to masquerade as is a good human in a digital form. All the rest of this will show up in the way that it's supposed to.

That's freaking fire.

Or it's a bunch of hate mail in my inbox.

If you're gonna.

There are people who are providing inbound services that I would never hate mail.

About leading with love. Then I really don't want to know who those people are.

I probably just delete it anyway.

It's called constructive coaching, everybody.

A little episode constructed. I've just been bearing my heart honestly. This whole episode is like, here's my heart, here's my soul. Here are a bunch of thoughts that are. Are marinating but are not fully baked on this whole human business. Hubs. Think about tapping them in to like help my clients. There are men, spot, agency, partner ecosystem. Being the best business owner that I can be that I would like, hey, let's work together because they need this thing and you're awesome. There are plenty creating a culture at Sidekick strategies that doesn't end up like most and really embracing this. It's the people that were broken, not the term agency or the term business. As we move forward.

I love that. Well, based on some of the discoveries that you've made internally as well.

Yeah, it's. It's six one way, half a dozen the other. Do you let them in and hope that you can be next to them?

And you've gone through this conversation. My last question is this coming out of today's conversation about inbound and how it's evolved from your unique vantage point, what are the big questions you will now be asking yourself as you go into the rest of this year?

Yeah, how are you going to challenge change them? Or do you just look at certain people and go, these are not the droids you're looking for and let them just go on.

Have you heard of part yourself?

Yeah. It's funny, I feel like I'm supposed to say something like how big we can get and how far we can take it. And now that we've unleashed the beast in the brain, like how. How fast can we run? It's not where my brain is at all. It's how can I slow down and pay attention to every little micro detail to make the right decisions for everyone involved. Have you heard of Eloqua, Par Dot, Salesforce, Marketo? What is it? Wishpaw, Sharp Spring. Like, as we move forward so this can truly gain the Speed, the breadth, the depth that I believe we're going to have as far as an impact on what? Just list them all out and be like, there are other playgrounds that might be impact on the planet. And I mean the planet, because we jokingly said that's another podcast beyond your default dot com. Like, we're coming at this in two different directions. Yes. Do we believe we should be an agency and should we right for you now I know inbound Santa will always look at me and be like, ang, you're crazy, bro. Like, that would be the last.

Everybody has the capacity for change.

Yeah, no, but. But that's a lead. The charge on how can we create great, human centric, loving, empathetic agencies and agency employees. But we're also hitting this from the other side of how do we just help humans be better humans and live a better life? And so we're not just thinking of this from an agency business owner. We're thinking of this also in the direction of mentor, teacher, like coach, business and personal. Anyway, I'm just thinking of, like, slow, steady impact den in the universe. That's where our brain is.

Your brain's in an awesome place, George.

Why, thank you. And my email is nobody@nobody.com just send any gripes or grievances to that email.

Mine is constructive coaching at. Yes, it is a threat dot com. And, you know, with that, George, I know we won't be alone again next week. The guys will be back and we.

Can talk about HubSpot.

We can talk about HubSpot.

And I cannot itch and say thank.

You so much for taking. Well, thank you so much for, though, for taking us on this journey. I think it's. It's really important for people to pause and stop looking at inbound through just the lens of HubSpot and remember why it is that we're doing this in the first place. You know, it reminds me of the story you talk about a lot, which is, you know, don't call me a customer. I'm a human.

And I think that's something that people.

Need to remember, is that ultimately, at the end of the day, every search term that lands somebody on your website is a person trying to solve a problem.

You know, I'll. I'll end us one layer deeper than that. I love what you said, but I would also add to this. Don't call me an employee, call me human. Okay, hub heroes, we've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord, that's a couple things that I would be like, okay, this would. This would be nice.

Okay, I got a couple more questions before we wrap up today's conversation. So first, as you look to the horizon.

Yeah.

Where would you challenge business leaders across all departments? So whether we're talking about owners, marketers, sales, service ops folks, whomever, where would you challenge those folks to push themselves with Inbound and HubSpot to see the best results, whether we're talking about strategy, technology, or human capital?

Wow.

I know a very softball question.

Shoot.

I know.

Like, there's. I mean, there's so many things rolling through my brain. Like, I immediately want to be like, well, for Black, continue to loom over the community, or will we be able to defeat him in the next episode of the Hub Heroes podcast? Make sure you tune in and find out. In the next episode, make sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest episodes and become part of the League of Heroes. FYI, if you're part of the League of Heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox and they come with some hidden power up on the vision of where you're trying to go. And then I immediately after that would be like, and you got to start thinking potential as well. Make sure you share this podcast with a friend, leave a review if you like what you're listening to, and use the hashtag hub podcast on any of the socials and let us know what strategy conversation you'd like to listen into next. Until next time, when we meet and combine our forces, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble human. And of course, always be looking for a way to be someone's hero.