How Pivoting Can Make Your Agency A Success with Blake Imeson from LimeCuda

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Welcome to Inbound Agency Journey. This is the show where inbound agency leaders share the strategies, shortcomings, and successes they've experienced in their journey toward building their dream agency. Now, here are your hosts, Andrew and Gray. All right, welcome back to Inbound Agency Journey. This is Gray. And this week I am here with a longtime friend and a peer and a mentor and a guy named Blake Imison from Lime Kuda. Blake, you're up in Michigan now, right?

I am, yep. Kind of Lansing area msu, all that.

Nice. Well, that's awesome. Well, thanks for coming on. I am excited to dig into. Obviously, I know a good bit of your story, but I'm sure there's a lot that I don't know, and I'm excited to hear it and share it. So thanks for being here.

Oh, my pleasure. Fantastic to be on here with you, Gray. Like you said, we have a long history, like, probably getting close to a decade now, which is nuts to think about. But it's always been fun, you know, keeping in contact with kind of peers struggling through similar industry stuff. You know, we both came out of same school, both entrepreneurship, all that. So it's. It always feels like a comrade in arms kind of experience whenever we get a chance to chat. So.

Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, I'll. So I want to start off with a little bit of the Lime Kuda story, but before we get to Lime Kuda, I want to give people just the context of how I first came to know you, which is. So you and I both went to Grove City College in Western pa, Small, private Christian school. And at the time, so I started there, you were a year ahead of me. And I guess I graduated in 2011. So I came in in the fall of 2007. So WordPress was pretty new at the time, the whole web thing. And I had no idea what I wanted to do with my future, but I got really interested in web design and kind of the whole online space and eventually in marketing. But at the time, once I started getting into that and taking some classes on it, you were kind of known on campus as the WordPress guy. You were already doing some client work and had experience, and it was like, whoa, here's Blake. He's the man on campus for all this stuff.

So.

So I kind of remember designing and.

Coding, and it feels like the client's really over your shoulder directing you. After a few years of that, we kind of started to chase more upmarket and try and chase more corporate stuff, which was kind of a dirty word to the entrepreneur going after corporate or whatever. But it was really a great move business wise, because budget isn't as big of a deal, is huge when you're trying to grow business. And then secondly, usually you'll end up dealing with areas of a company where they would rather you just be the expert and tell them what to do or to do it. And that is so much more effective, more enjoyable. So if we can find those clients that respect us as the expert and will let us just tell them what to do and then do it, that was really kind of an epiphany. Probably three years in that those are the ones we need to be chasing. Even though we love entrepreneurs, they're not a right foot client for us. So that'd be one pivot. You want me to hit you with another?

Yeah, well, I do. I think that you just hit on exactly. One of the reasons that small businesses are still small in a lot of cases is because the owner or leadership just hasn't learned how to let go yet. And obviously the fact that they are small leads to the budget issues. But I think, and I remember going to one of those web Wednesdays, I don't know that I'd even connected with you before, and I was like a little bit nervous because you were, you seemed like the man and I had no clue what I was doing. That's kind of what I remember from our first conversation. I think I was like this classic, much more timid, earlier days gray. But I think I was, I think I was like, didn't want to take up much of your time. I like had a couple questions and probably tried to rush through them. And so anyways, that was, that was the early days and where we got started. But let's, let's move from there into the actual kind of how Lime Kuda got started. And because I think your story is really interesting and a lot of things that you've been through and really helped helped kind of. You went through some of that stuff before we went through it with Guavabox. That was helpful for us. I think that'd be helpful for folks listening as well. So how did Lime Cuda get started?

Yeah, sure, sure. So with kind of the on campus inspiration that got me down the, the web development web strategy route. I had to do a business plan competition as part of my senior year and I was kind of, you know, playing with this WordPress stuff, SEO consulting. And I thought, well, I'll just turn that into a business plan. And the kind of, the unique aspect of it will be its open source kind of solutions for small business. You know, being entrepreneurship majors, we kind of idolized the small business kind of thing and, you know, wanted to help those people who are in startups or small business. So did that business plan tied for first. Then I just went with it right out of school. That was back in 2010. And so I've been doing it seven years now. It's had probably three or four pivots along the way. But yeah, so it started because to roll back just a little bit. Tim Sweet had gotten me a really sweet internship in Pittsburgh and I ended up doing SEO work and kind of some stuff around like pay per click and that whole. I don't think it was called Inbound at the time. Really, it was kind of before that became a term, but it was a lot of stuff related to Internet marketing, which was probably the bigger term used. And I loved it. But I knew I didn't want to do it all day, everywhere, all day, every day. I was literally having nightmares doing keyword research, like in spreadsheets. That was kind of like the dawning point where I was like, you know, this is some fun stuff, but I can't just do this day in, day out. I need to branch out and expand a little bit. So when I was thinking about this recently, I realized that that experience getting into SEO at the start of my kind of career really helped orient me towards kind of the success of a business. And looking at like, what are those metrics that really are important? And I think that's been one of the things that's been able to differentiate us from other dime a dozen web development, web strategy design firms is a lot of times they're just code monkeys or design shops and they might be great at what they do. But I'm preaching to the choir here, literally the choir master. But if you don't have those business aims and be thinking strategically about the business, all you're doing is creating something pretty. So really the start of my whole journey was in the SEO internship. And from there I got into WordPress. Just ended up launching Lime Cuda as a kind of WordPress design and development shop. And like I said, that's been a crazy seven year journey to where we are now.

Yeah, you mentioned like three or four pivots along the way. What were some of the big turns that you guys took with the business?

Sure. So one that was a hard one to get my head around for probably three years was who our client was. And initially, you know, I told you I had this kind of like idealization of the entrepreneur and the small business. I grew up in a small business, part of an entrepreneurial family, love that kind of stuff. But after three years I realized they are hard clients. And you and I, you know, running small businesses, we might have similar issues. But what I realized is they of course are very sensitive with budget, which is understandable. When you're running a small business, you have to be careful and you have to be a good steward of what marketing funds you have. But then also they can tend to be the kind of people that are very processed and they're generally not good about just letting the expert be the expert. So after years of kind of struggling with that and that situation where you're kind of designing and coding and it feels like the client's really over your shoulder directing you. After a few years of that, we kind of started to chase more upmarket and try and chase more corporate stuff, which was kind of a dirty word to the entrepreneur going after corporate or whatever. But it was really a great move business wise because budget isn't as big of a deal, which of course is huge when you're trying to grow business. And then secondly, usually you'll end up dealing with areas of a company where they would rather you just be the expert and tell them what to do or to do it. And that is so much more effective, more enjoyable. So if we can find those clients that respect us as the expert and will let us just tell them what to do and then do it, that was really kind of an epiphany. Probably three years in that those are the ones we need to be chasing. Even though we love entrepreneurs, they're not a right foot client for us. So that'd be one pivot. You want me to hit you with another?

Yeah, well, I do. I think that you just hit on exactly one of the reasons that small businesses are still small in a lot of cases is because the owner or leadership just hasn't learned how to let go yet. Obviously the fact that they are small leads to the budget issues. But I think if you want to be micromanaged, the best place you can live is just in the small business realm. So absolutely agree. That's a common theme that we hear is just you have to. As much as you would like to help the small businesses grow, in a lot of cases they just have some self limiting issues that they need to get through before they're going to be able to grow. And unless you're passionate about being the agent of change to work through those issues, that can be A tough place to be in as a service provider in this space.

Yep, yep.

Absolutely can relate to that, to that experience. What have been the other big pivots?

So another one that comes to mind is stuff in kind of the realm of hosting. So our hosting journey looked like, hey, we're doing WordPress stuff, we're doing development and design. It seems natural to offer hosting as part of that. But at the time we're thinking like, well, we're offering a commodity. We need to price like a commodity. So foolishly, we started out at like 6, 6, 7, $10 a month kind of thing, trying to compete with like hostgator and bluehost and you know, these other kind of bottom feeder hosting providers. Because we were thinking like, you know, this is we're offering the same thing as these guys, sometimes we're just reselling their services. So we priced our hosting competitively, which also meant we weren't differentiating it. And so the next big pivot was also kind of philosophically realizing what we're offering to the client in terms of what we call hosting and caretaking is way higher value than what hostgator can give at five bucks a month. So the next pivot was kind of thinking differently about that, pricing it more correctly. So kind of intro is more like $50 a month and very quickly goes up from there depending on the client needs and size. But where now we think of our hosting not as a commodity, but it's something that we're very involved in. It's a lot of kind of high touch service so that there's personal attention that's paid to it that really was costing us a lot of time and effort and was a fantastic value that we weren't capturing. So that was the second pivot is just changing how we thought about hosting which resulted in a better pricing structure which was more sustainable.

Right? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that's something we may talk about this or may not get to it, but you and I have worked together and we wound up. Although Guavabox has done hosting for a while as well, the setup that you guys move to and the decisions I think that you've made to just go as far away from the bottom feeders in the industry as possible. I think it's been a great pivot for you guys and something that we've partnered together on and sent Guava Box clients to you guys for hosting because I think you do that really, really well. So that's something, if there are any agencies and we may talk about this more in depth at some point. But if there are any agencies who are looking for kind of the combination of the best technology, but also some personal attention and that isn't something your agency wants to do, Blake is probably the right person to talk to about setting up some kind of partnership or referral system there as well. Anyways, yeah, that's cut you off, but wanted to mention that and maybe we get to that at some point in this episode. We'll see where we are time wise. But anyways, carry on with the pivot train.

Yeah, so the third one that comes to mind is it's also one that's been ongoing over the last seven years, probably a bunch of micro pivots, but it's been continually narrowing in on what is it that we actually do and that we do really well. So when we first started out, we were doing SEO and AdWords and social media and like blog content generation, like we were doing all that stuff, which all of it's absolutely key for, you know, for most businesses, but at least for our particular agency, we realized the strengths of our team and how we should best use our time. Those weren't all a great fit. So over time we've narrowed the focus of what we do, which means we've been able to do kind of deeper expertise projects that really play to our strengths. And then we haven't been shy about bringing in partners. So this has been probably one of the best parts of this kind of hybrid agency model that we've got, is that we'll bring in, you know, marketing or branding partners, sometimes they'll bring us in. And when you can attack a client problem or, you know, be striving for a client success with people that are really good at what they do and you're really good at what you you do and you respect each other, that's just been some of our best successes, I think, have come from those partnerships. So to sum up that pivot, it's been continually trying to dial in what are the things we should be doing, what are the things we shouldn't be doing. And it's been tough to be ruthless about that. But when we've done that and either turned away work or brought in partners for that, certain pieces that's been really, really helpful in the growth of our firm.

Right. That's all three of those make sense. And they all kind of have the common theme of which makes sense as a business. As you're trying to like it is a journey. You're trying to figure out who are we and what do we do and who do we help and how do we do that and answer all the, all the basic questions. But they all are like a refining of focus where none of those decisions that you made were an expansion of any of those. They were kind of a consolidation of, okay, we no longer, instead of serving anybody who comes to us, and primarily that small businesses kind of weeding out some of the smaller businesses and focusing on a step up in the market and then narrowing down the services that you offer to specifically what we do best, narrowing down the way that you're gonna hire or way that you're gonna offer hosting packages and just cut out a lot of the low budget, low value stuff that you could do. So I think that's, that's cool to see that common theme as you continue to go. And I think a lot of especially young talking to entrepreneurship students and stuff, you hear a lot of times in business plans, like an already broad business plan, and then saying, and then once we do this, we're going to expand into this and this.

Right?

I think in most successful businesses it's the opposite where you actually continue to narrow down your focus. And then at some point once you hit scale, then there can be other things that come out of that, either to serve the same industry or same market or a different segment of the market. But a lot of times it is that continuous narrowing down that ultimately leads, leads to success, especially in those first five, ten years or whatever.

And I think that applies really well, not just to like a business thinking about how to focus and differentiate, but, you know, as professionals, as individuals that are trying to better ourselves. It's so hard in our space to become like top of your game expert in the entire space. But if you pick a niche, it's much easier to become like that guy that knows accounting websites, that person that knows how to do restaurants or whatever it is. It's much easier to pick your niche and totally rock it out and grow personally in that than it is to like, hey, I'm going to learn everything and do everything for Internet marketing or web development or whatever. It's, it's hubris to think that, and it's a common young person mistake, is that the stack of knowledge out there doesn't look as big when you're starting out small.

Right? That's definitely true.

Yeah.

I think like combining your skill sets, like you're saying, you know, if you're the person who knows web design, but also knows web design in the accounting space, then you're going to be more successful there than if you try and do one or the other. So a lot of times the combination of different things like do inbound, it's an example. There's a ton of great project management platforms out there. So if we were just one more in the crowd of the same old, everyone's kind of got their different spin on it, but it's all project management software. Instead of trying to compete there, taking project management and applying it specifically to agencies, specifically digital agencies, and then primarily inbound agencies or agencies who offer inbound as part of what they do. That has helped us to be a lot more successful than if we tried to go out and be the next basecamp or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

So let's talk a little bit about where you guys are today, because that's always interesting. So services, if you go to lamcuda.com and I'm looking at the services, drop down, I see website design and development, that is piece number one. Hosting and caretaking is listed on there. Agency partnering is listed on there. What's kind of the core of what you guys do? And then maybe we'll talk about team and just generally what types of. We've kind of already hit on clients. But if there's anything else that we should add about types of clients that you serve so we can kind of get a feel for where Lemkude is today, I think that'd be helpful. And then jump from there in the next area.

Yeah, yeah. So with our clients, we do try and take kind of like a holistic approach to them. So at the beginning of relationship, we, you know, do that kind of discovery thing where you're figuring out what they need. And as much of that as we can provide, we will. Or we'll bring on subcontractors that have particular expertise or agencies. So really what we mostly end up doing is kind of taking strategy lead and spending a lot of time in the discovery phase. What Chris Lemma calls, you know, as you're getting to know a client, you. You really marinate in the problem space. So we try and really, like, spend a lot of time getting to know their business and getting to know what are the issues that you're facing. A lot of times it's business process, things that while we technically don't do. We can at least say, hey, you guys need to get on a CRM here. You need to have some process to work these leads through. You need to think about your business differently. So we'll spend a lot more time getting to know them. And then we'll assemble a plan for how that's going to affect their website. Because usually what we end up being pulled in on is a website build or website rebuild. So while that's kind of the focus and that's what the client thinks they want, they're kind of just like, hey, we need a website. We spend a lot more time getting to know them and try to really become that strategic consultant that's looking at, well, you know, yeah, you need a website, but really you need a whole lot more and you need to think about this differently. So that's kind of the starting spot for us. And then that works itself out and actually building WordPress websites, building special functionality, creating custom designs, maybe some brand refresh. And then there's, of course, the hosting component that we do a lot. But that's it in a nutshell, is getting to know them, figuring out what they need, doing it, or bringing in other people to do it.

Blake, do you guys charge for that discovery phase? Is that its own service or offering, or is that just part of a larger deal? How does that. Because that transition trips up a lot of people going from, okay, I'm in the sales process, I'm in the sales process. At what point I need answers to this. Does this become its own project or is it something separate? How do you guys structure that?

Yeah. Oh, man, you're hitting on something that's been a kind of lifelong struggle for us. One thing we tried at one point was trying to charge for that kind of phase. Zero discovery. We're going to come up with strategy, and even though we tried to really price that as like 500 to 2000 or something, that seemed low and shouldn't be a problem and could apply to a bigger web project. We just for our structure that just. We didn't have a lot of success with that. That's not to say that that isn't a great route. I know some companies that do that, do that very well, but we just could never get the knack of it with the way our sales process works. So really, it then ends up being a lot of vetting of the client up front and a lot of trying to figure out is this client making one that is willing to pay, they have budget and are we a good fit? And then if they are, we'll continue and we'll be pretty generous with peppering our kind of sales with consultation and being really generous about discovering them, discovering what makes them tick, talking opportunities with them. And usually that works out really well because by that point in the sales process, we've built up enough trust and credibility that they're not going to take those ideas and they're going to run to someone else. That we've demonstrated expertise and at that point we have a really good closure rate where if we're at a point of actually doing a proposal for one of those clients which might be five to 15 pages long, so pretty big endeavor, we're at the point of investing in that. It's very rare now that that that proposal actually doesn't get accepted because we've done so much work pre qualifying them and talking through with them where you know, oftentimes we've even. We know their budget, we know whether if we, if we give them a proposal and it's going to be, you know, 50 grand, is that a problem for them? So when we actually do send the proposal out and we've done all this and we've had all these talks with them, it's extremely rare that that doesn't result in business. So that's how we've approached it. I'm not convinced that's the best way, but it's what's working for us.

Right. That's cool that you've tried both. I think a lot of that does come down to self awareness and understanding what's our sales style and how that goes. Blake, is there anything that has changed in this. Obviously a lot of things have changed in the sales process. Are there any things, I guess like on a really high level, any big things that you feel like have changed to improve your close rate over time? Yeah, I guess one example that I'm thinking of is I've just become much more as I've become a much better salesperson. There's some like internal things I think just caring less about. I care far less. I don't really care on a prospect call whether they like me or not now because ultimately if I can help them, they'll like me and if they're not willing to be helped, then it doesn't really matter anyways and they probably won't like me at the end of the day. And I think what that's led to is the qualifying stuff really early. Typically I'll even just like tell people my goal here is to come up with an answer as quickly as possible about whether there's no way that we can work together or it's possible that we can work together and just basically let them know I'm trying to disqualify you to save us both time in the process and go through the Qualification. And I don't let people off the hook like I used to let people off the hook when I would say. When I asked the budget question, they would say, well, I don't really have a budget. I'd always be like, okay, well, let's move on to the next thing. What's your timeline? And obviously that's pointless because you need to have some idea about who you're talking with and what they're going to be willing to spend and help set their expectations. So that I think on a high level, caring less about being liked and caring more about actually helping them as the number one and really only goal has been a big change and not letting people off the hook with things like budget. If you don't have a budget, then there's some different ways that you can answer that and attack that. But I think just being more digging into their situation and trying to communicate, not necessarily in as many words, but that you really don't care whether you win or lose the business unless you can actually help them.

Yeah, yeah.

But is there anything that sticks out to you?

Sure, sure. I've got two that kind of mesh right in there in those spaces. One would be just around budget and pricing, which is really. That's the most awkward part of the whole conversation. And it also, tragically, is where things die or succeed is on budget. Like we live in real world. There's limited amount of money these firms have, and pretending like it's not a problem and it's not awkward is not helping anyone. So what we've tried to do is be really kind of verbose about pricing, even if they aren't, they don't have numbers in their minds or they can't give a budget. We've tried to be really intentional about throwing out numbers and starting to anchor in their mind what. Or they can't give a budget. We've tried to be really intentional about throwing out numbers and starting to anchor in their mind what similar projects cost or what kind of ranges are. Because the moment we mention a price range, we might, you know, say 10,000 to 50,000 or whatever, that big range, it wouldn't be a real world range, but what similar projects cost or what kind of ranges are. Because the moment we start throwing out ranges, they. They suddenly are anchored. And then if we come in somewhere within that and they're still having the conversation, it's much more likely to be a success. It's not just us throwing out numbers, I should say it's getting reactions and trying to judge their response. And this isn't about being manipulative or tricking. This is about us together trying to figure out what's going to make business sense for both of us. Can we provide enough value to warrant 50,000? Do you have budget that will make 50,000 reasonable? And because every business is different and has different cash stores and cash flow and all that, it's usually a very different conversation for every client. So I'd say to pull back and sum up, it would be like you said, being really intentional about asking about budget. And then what we've done is also try and do some price anchoring, which I'm a big Chris Lemma fanboy and he has some fantastic stuff about pricing, particularly about price anchoring. So if you want to check out Chris Lemma, he's a good source on that subject. So budgeting and price, that's one you want me to hit you with the other?

Yeah, if you have the other, let's go.

Yeah, okay. So the other one, this one has been one that it's been hard for me, which is being I guess kind of upfront about your capabilities and expertise and kind of credibility without seeming arrogant or like you're bragging. So for me, I've always been very wary of coming off as sounding like, you know, that that arrogant person that's just full of themselves and overconfident and you know, but we've also had many times where that approach made meant we sold ourselves short and people didn't fully understand like, hey, you know, these guys have done big work. They've done projects bigger than this one. They have, you know, clients that are bigger than us, which would be things that should build trust in them. They should, you know, help help us appear more credible. It'll give them more comfort. So it's really been finding that balance and the right way to talk about yourself accurately and express kind of your credibility and that, that you are someone of trust without seeming like that arrogant blowhard that just is. Has an over inflated sense of. So that's been the struggle for me. And when we found that and been able to express that, well, it's really helped us close new work. And I think that's now a key part of our process is just making sure that we're intentionally sending all these signals and saying the right things to express our credibility and build that trust.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think one technique here that might be helpful for people listening around the budget conversation. A lot of times you will get into a conversation with somebody who's just very hesitant to share budget. And those situations can sometimes get a little bit combative. And one way that has helped us kind of avoid that, while also to some degree establishing some credibility or at least the type of business that you do is called the bucket technique and just basically sharing with people. So in a guava box example, we'd walk through that and say, well, we kind of have three buckets of websites that we do the first one and you list off what it is. Maybe it's a 20 to 30 page website where you're providing the content, we're doing the design and the development. There's no crazy functionality or anything. Here's what it is. And those projects on the very low end start at $10,000 and range up to $25,000. And then our second bucket and you give them the criteria and that's typically a 30 to $50,000 project. And then the next step up is kind of like the enterprise type websites. And those ones typically start around 70,000, 75,000 and go into whatever that is, 125, 150, 100, whatever the range on it is. So based on that description and what we've talked about so far and your understanding of your situation, which one sounds like the right place for you, and asking them to self identify in the three buckets that they gave you is much easier for a prospect in a lot of cases than them having to say, well, we have exactly $40,000 to spend and here's what we need. And that's a great way to do price anchoring. Also to share the type of work that you do. And it's especially helpful when you can share examples of what those are, especially if they've already seen different types of work, which a lot of the conversations that we have, they have seen work and they typically have something that they like that they've seen before. And so they'll often ask, well, I think that we'd be in this bucket and here's a site that we like and where we're. Then they want to do comparisons which obviously then you've got to dance around. You don't need to. You shouldn't be revealing exactly what other other people have spent, but you can clarify the type of work they've done. So that technique has been really helpful for trying to get budget out without being super combative and having them self identify. And sometimes you'll get, obviously you'll get the people who say, well, we have like, it's amazing how quickly someone can go from I have no idea what our budget is to. Well, we have less than $10,000 to spend, so I don't think we're a fit. But you also get people who, and it happens very, very frequently where they'll say, well, I think we're a fit for that second bucket. I don't think we need what you described in the top bucket. Just like with most pricing plans, most people would like to, if they, you know, if they can, they'd like to self identify in that middle or upper bucket. But if the needs aren't there, then that's great if they go into the bottom one. But I think that's something that's been helpful for us and for other folks who we've shared with. And so I thought that might be something that is helpful as well. But that's one of the ways that we've gotten around the budget and helped make the budget conversation a little bit easier.

Yeah, that's a great tip. I'll throw one other thought at it. When you're actually forming a proposal, at that point, you hope we know generally what a workable range will be, but you also know their expectations in terms of features and what's it going to do and how's it going to look. And a lot of times those are incongruous. There's no way we can do all the things you want within the budget. We have experimented with our proposals giving them two options. One option we know is within their budget, but it might not have three or four kind of the more sexy features that they might be wanting. They're not going to be critical features that if they don't want with them, it's going to be a problem. But then oftentimes what we've seen is they're willing to stretch to get those couple sexy features that maybe one of their executives wanted or they were kind of fixated on. So we have had some success splitting out proposals. And, you know, so it might be ones like 20 grand, option one and option two. That's got a couple of the other things, you know, maybe that's 30 grand. And it's amazing to me how often dividing it like that really, they're willing to hop from the smaller bucket into the bigger bucket.

I 100% agree. And that experience has also. That was a surprise to me once we started doing that, how frequently and typically if we're doing that, we'll give people three different options. And I would have guessed that the middle option would have gotten picked most. But actually it is a top option which probably tells us something like maybe we're pricing it too low or maybe there should be some additional things. I don't know whether it's right or wrong, but it has been surprising and profitable how frequently people will jump for for the top option in that scope. I think that's really helpful. Blake, who would have thought if they knew us 10 years ago that you and I would be on a podcast talking about how to do sales at some point? Because that's neither of our personalities by default. But that's part of being an entrepreneur and running this is you really have to learn how to sell and understand what drives people and how to position what you have if you're going to be successful.

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Well, awesome. Well Blake, I would like to, I'd love to do have another conversation with you at some point and kind of walk through what you guys do during the web design process itself and kind of dig into some of the things that you've learned. Because you guys I think have a really smooth process for handling those, especially handling some complex and high level projects that would be helpful for, for folks to listen to. But in the meantime, prior to that, obviously some of the stuff that we've mentioned here, any resources Limecuda the site hosting Chris Lemma we will make sure that those things go into the show notes@duomo.com podcast if folks want to ask you questions, get in touch with you about hosting. Just connect in general. What's the best way for them to do that?

Yeah, blakeimcuda.com is my email. That's always a great way. If you connect to me on LinkedIn, I'm happy to connect. Just send a note with it if you don't mind. Like most of us, I get tons of strange requests and spam requests, so those two would be probably the best ways to reach out. Happy to talk shop and see if there could be some kind of a partnership that anyone's interested in. Have lots of those and they've always worked out really well.

Awesome. Well that makes a lot of sense. Blake, thanks for coming on and sharing with us and look forward to a part two here in the near future.

Awesome. Thanks a ton Gray. Have a good one.