How To Boost Your Agency's Productivity and Efficiency with Soulful Leadership

Awesome. Welcome back to Agency Journey. My name is Gray MacKenzie from Zen Pilot. I'll be your host today. But really the voice who you want to listen to primarily is my friend Kenny Lang, who is on Kenny has a cool story. We've been swimming in the same agency circles for a while, so I'm sure it will be familiar to some of you who are, who are listening. But now he's on a track, obviously. We've been doing a series here around EOS and the impact that's had on agencies and what are the pros and cons and ups and downs, all the things eos. So I want to bring Kenny on and talk about this newer program called System in Soul. And so we'll dig into all that. But Kenny, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me, Gray. I'm excited.

Yeah, well, I'm, I'm so pumped to get into this. Let's give people kind of the quick context. How do I place Kenny? Like, what's the 32nd, 62nd story of here is my agency experience and how did you get into what you're doing now?

Yeah, so I, I think I have a similar story to a lot of other agency owners, which is I'm an accidental agency owner and so started an agency because, you know, my family needed to eat. I was, I was hungry too, and I just hadn't found the thing that clicked for me and. But I was a nerd and I had an eye for design and I didn't mind writing and I was already starting blog myself and I thought, well, what if other people paid me to do it? So 2015, launched my own agency, found the HubSpot partner community and opportunity very quickly and it lined right up and stayed a part of it and grew the agency up until spring of 2020. And that's when made the decision. I finalized the sale of the agency to, to a larger partner, a friend of mine that had been in contact that we had a lot of similarities but had really both gotten tired of trying to be agency owners by ourselves and not seeing our kids and wives and things like that. And so we, we decided teaming up was good and stayed with them for, for two years. So all in all, spent, you know, the last seven years of my life in the agency world.

And then what is. So you had some EOS experience. I was just telling at the time, like you found an email from us back in 2018 talking about implementing. You were just starting down this path of self implementation at your first agency and then, you know, you had kind of second experience in it. But today, like maybe and maybe this is. Let's just start with kind of what's the profile of what you do on a day to day basis. And let's get into what is system and Soul versus eos.

Yeah. So day to day I'm a System and Soul certified coach and so I'm helping companies implement the framework. And obviously there's a multitude of reasons why somebody is looking for any kind of business framework and then narrow it down to those that feel like System and soul is a fit. I also help companies with psychological safety and implementing that. So if they want their DEI initiatives to stick or they're just looking for a more high performance, more innovative culture because I saw Google did a study and said psychological safety seems cool, let's just do the next cool thing. But certified there and helping companies. So really a lot of it's about helping companies hold space to create growth that sticks. But is also people centric.

Yeah. So I'm on the FAQ page right now, which for anybody's curious, Kenny Lang is K E N N Y L a n g e.com and we'll talk about this health score thing. But I think kind of like you, you said the word framework. So what is S2 and in this bucket of hey, for folks who've been listening to this, we've talked a lot about the Entrepreneurial Operating System. What's the genesis of S2 and what does it look like to implement this in an agency?

Right. Well, I'm glad you mentioned you're looking at my website. I wanted to make sure I know what I said on that space. But S2, which is the abbreviation, so Entrepreneurial Operating system has EOS system and soul has S2. So if I say that, that's what I'm talking about. It originated sort of that December, January of 2020, 2021. So you know, it's coming up on, on a two year anniversary here. It really emerged not too dissimilar from the way EOS emerged from the, the legacy of you've got like scaling up with Vern Harnish. 4 Disciplines of execution have been around for a while. I don't know if people would consider that a codified framework. And then you get the Rockefeller habits and things like that. So it's sort of, it's in that same lineage and really evolved because of the time that Benj Miller and Chris White, who are the co founders, had spent time as implementers and saw things missing from the implementation. But also just the requests they'd gotten from their clients. I mean, Chris was one of the first 30 EOS implementers, like Learn, learned it from Gino Wickman and. And some Chicago hotel ballroom sort of thing. And so there's just certain patterns. They noticed that we're missing, and they just said, hey, you know, we, we like a lot of what's here. The systems are great, but the thing we keep hearing is we really need something that's a little bit more people focused, helps develop leadership, as opposed to just weeding out who's. Who's not a great fit. What if we built something that evolved? And so, you know, what they. What they would tell you is that this is really the business framework for the next generation.

What does. So being more people focused is like in the. If you look at any of the S2 stuff, that's. The messaging that's gone hard. You know, there's a number of different things that will be differentiators. Well, actually, maybe if I back up from that, let's. I want to go the opposite direction, then come back to it. But just for people who are not familiar, I want to go with, like, what's similar? So I look at it and says, you know, hey, we've got an organizational assessment which is now called a. You know, we've got it on here as the. The health score page. Yeah, the S2 diagnostic.

Yeah.

We've got. In terms of the process, you know, here's the. Here's the way that we get. Organizational health is broken into six key components again. And you've gotten. Probably shutter that. I'm even saying, like 6 giga. I probably can't even use the OS language here. But we've got.

I can go get my binder. I've got it in the closet. Okay. Just in case anybody's wondering if I'm just like an S2 fanboy who never experienced EOS. I have the binder, the books, I have a lot of orange. Just so that we're clear, we get the same.

Or, you know, it's very similar. Three phases, kind of building out vision, and then quarterly sessions and then 2D. Like, you look at it on paper and you're like, oh, this is, you know, purely the EOS model revisited or with a new coat of paint. So I think just to set that. To set that first that like, hey, there's a bunch of stuff that's similar between the two. And feel free to call out anything that I missed that you're like, hey, this is the other stuff that EOS got right. But how do we. What does that. Like, hey, we're more people centric or focused on leadership development. Like, how does that play out tactically or practically?

Yeah, and that's a great question. And it's something that all of us coaches bump into with some, with some regularity. Right. Because EOS is really having a day in the sun. You know, it's the classic work hard for 20 years and suddenly you're an overnight sensation sort of thing. So, you know, they're building, and I think that's great. I mean, they're helping. It helped me and, and it's helped a bunch of other businesses. I think a lot of the things they got right were, were some of the things that I don't even think that were unique to EOs. They just. Gino just codified it and then promoted the absolute mess out of it. So they were the most recognizable about doing things on a quarterly rhythm. Well, EOS didn't invent that. Right. Like, that's existed and exists in a myriad of systems and tools and processes and recommendations. I think the way in which you implement a system or a framework, I think they definitely got right is they start, you know, in eos, you start with traction right. In your, in your focus days, and then you, you move on and, and you start working on the vision and building your vto. I think producing movement and then adding vision to it was spot on. It. It is way different than everybody else who wants to get pie in the sky. It appeases the visionary and then. But nothing really happens. It creates doubt. So there's all these downsides. So I think that that's spot on. Getting an org, you know, we call it an org chart, EOS calls it an accountability chart. But starting with that, to really understand the structure and making that a living document as opp basically some ugly Microsoft flowchart with people's faces of who reports to who and who's the head honcho at the top of the pyramid. I think that's a terrible use of it, you know, so either way, accountability chart, org chart, you're in, you're in good company. You're in a good mix there. Assigning scores, scoreboards, dashboards. That's classic business, like any business worth its salt is. Is looking at numbers on a regular basis. And hopefully it's not just revenue and P L and a balance sheet, because by that time, you know, stuff is already off the rails, if that's what you're looking at as your indicator. Right. So I think a Lot of the systems side they got right now for, you know, whether it was for, you want to say, trademark reasons or there are some, some subtle differences. There are some, some, there are a lot of similarities. I won't deny that. And that's some of what I like. I. Nobody in the system and soul community says, you know, is turned into Bobby Boucher's mom and says, you know, EOS is the devil. Like it's not that it's, this is a great place to start but we saw a gap and we're evolving from it and somebody's going to come along, see what S2 is doing. You know, probably be a coach for a little while and then maybe they see a gap in what we're missing and then evolve. There's going to be an evolution. This is not the end all, be all. And so I think that there are some subtle pieces inside of the systems piece that we kept that were slightly modified to really focus on people. Like in the org chart where we add in the actual specific KPIs and something we call just a mission and use a tool called Commander's Intent. The weekly sync which would sort of, you know, line up with your, your level 10 meetings holds a little bit more space at the beginning for people to really connect with one another and drive core values down into the organization every time they're getting together. Personally, I find the structure of objectives, maybe it's not as human centered but I from a, hey, this is friendly to all the people in the company. I found its structure so much more help. And actually when we implemented this at the, the last agency I was at, we saw an, an increase in completion percentages when we switched from building or creating rocks every quarter to creating objectives. So there's some subtle differences there and then we can get into the whole soul of like, you know, what's your identity? There's not much that really deals with identity and, and I know people will argue with me about the go to market piece on the, on the vto, but I've used it and I've used the identity piece and I can tell you it's, it's night and day and that's not just unique to my experience.

I want to dig into that next. But so S2 has a software platform, S2 sync, which is, you know, Eos is now building out there. EOS1 platform, get everywhere or trying to do it. Obviously you're way more valuable if there's a substantial as an entity, if there's a software component and then maybe this is a question you can't answer, so I can just speculate on it. But I'm always curious when I see stuff like this, how much of this is a framework around like a fancy way to try and sell software and create a substantial recurring revenue base by creating a methodology, almost a religion around it in order to sell, to sell software, which is kind of a funny place. But what is tied to that? What is the business model, because you mentioned, you know, us is going down this franchise route. Every implementer is a, is a franchisee. What's the S2 structure for how these coaches relate to the parent. Org?

Yeah, another, another great question there. I'll address the software piece just briefly. Is it. If it were. If the people at the, at the top or the middle, you know, Chris and Benj and then they have their, their operator, operator equals integrator in our world, McKinsey and a lot of those people, I would, I would go along with you and say, yeah, I think it was, you know, write a book, write a thing to sell this other thing. It's really just marketing to sell more of that. Right? It's. I think if it were any other people, I think that that would be the case. I think they saw the need for software to compliment because there are some particulars about it that don't make sense. Also 90 who, you know, a lot of people are familiar with Benj and Chris Co founded 90. Right. So it's like they saw the need for software even when they weren't the originators of the, the methodology. They saw like, hey, we've tried keeping track of this on, on sheets of paper for those of us who like to live in the 90s, I guess. And then there's, there's all these other things. So I think the software helps in terms of clarity. You can create your own. You know, I know like Asana has its own like okrs type of framework. I think ClickUp has some templates and things that are very friendly ToWards goals, planning, OKRs and structures that could hold it and you could sort of build it yourself. But it can be pretty painful. So not a lot of people want to put in the effort. So from that standpoint, see, you're coming from. But I don't think that that is the case. But maybe, you know, listeners think I'm biased. But your, your follow up and I just, I want to be honest, just blanked on around the coaches. The coaches, yeah. So everybody is on their, on their own. So it's not, it's not a Franchise model. We, we. Technically, it's not even, you know, you said that the parent company. I get what you come from, but it's, it's not a parent child company relationship either. So like my, my coaching practice, Kenny Lane Coaching stands on its own. Is it, it's its own entity. I utilize the tool of System and soul in my practice. But like I was also, you know, mentioning before, I also use a tool called, you know, the four stages of psychological safety and, you know, eyeballing predictive index and some other things. Because, you know, one of the benefits of System and soul is we can bring other tools to the table to help. We're not locked into a 20 tool tool, toolbox. There is a benefit to simplicity to only having 20 tools in your toolbox. I get it. But as new research comes out, like six types of working genius just got released. We have a partnership with the table group. We have, we've integrated working genius into our software. We've also integrated predictable success with the leadership styles of visionary operator, processor, synergist. For those of you who haven't checked it out, it's super, super cool if you, if you're nerdy about these sort of things. But we've been able to integrate those things and find other tools to bring to the table. But the coaches have the freedom to bring anything else that they want to bring as well. Because at the end of the day, it's not about buying a platform, a framework off the shelf, right? If that's all you want, then I don't matter as a coach, as an implementer, I don't matter if you're buying the framework. You just, you're buying a commodity. If that's what you want as an orange binder or a blue book, okay, hats off to you. But then I cease to be a value add in the relationship, and there's no real incentive for me to be my own coach. And that's what I really love, is I also have the opportunity to hone my craft as a coach who's charged with bringing a tool to bear, but also bringing out the best in my clients. So they connect with it because, you know, once I'm gone, whether at the end of the session, end of a year into the relationship, it's that leadership team's business, it's that owner's business. They're the ones left with it, not me. So I would, rather than buy a service from someone, I would compare it to say, a carpenter, right? Like, are you going out and saying, like, hey, what, what kind of saw do you use? You know, and nails and a hammer? Well, did you create that hammer? Did you create that saw? No, but I'm a darn good practitioner with it. I know how to use it. I mean if you gave me a hammer, some nails and a saw there's a good chance I'm going to the ER. But there are master craftsmen out there who you, you give them a, you know, a few, you know, a couple of two by fours and those same mater materials and you've got like a nice gazebo or something like that. Right. You know they're like a MacGyver. You know, make a bomb out of Bisquick sort of thing. You know tools make a difference in different hands and that's part of this. The value prop is the screening process, certification. And then how do you go out.

Into the world trying to try to oversimplify for people who are familiar with like the HubSpot ecosystem, is it more like that relationship? Obviously it's not just a software, there's a methodology there but two separate businesses. You pay you know as a coach you pay an annual licensing fee back to S2 if into using tools have ongoing certification, stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah. So tools support the, the coach community is, is fantastic. It, it really does. I, I know you, you get this because you've been part of the, the community longer than I have is, you know that HubSpot partner ecosystem is, is a phenomenal. It is so unique. What HubSpot has built and that community because I've been, you know, just like you and Andrew have is part of a bunch of different partner programs and hat, you know, the vast majority of them are just like here's an affiliate link. If you come across somebody who kind of likes our stuff and you want to make a buck, here you go. And it wasn't really engaged. It is far more that model of like okay, you are serving our end users if it's going to be better than if they went on it by themselves because you know we have a like a self guided version of system and soul. You can pay some money, go through the videos. It's you know like HubSpot Academy on steroids sort of thing. But at the end of the day the stickiness came when partners got involved right with HubSpot. That's what they found and then that's why you know that channel now I think it's some. I, I don't remember the last metric accounts for like half their revenue.

Yeah, pretty crazy. So I want to go back to the identity thing that you mentioned before, can we talk a little bit more about what that's like and we can approach from either side. I think part of juxtaposing it to EOS is because that's the framework that people have in mind.

Yeah.

But there are also some people who are not that familiar with eos. So just kind of as to standing on its own feet in terms of the identity piece and what people development should look like in an agency.

Yeah. So. And it's so hard in an agency because so many of the, the technical skills that once set you apart are now commoditized. You can, and there's you know, a ton of outsourcing overseas. You know, you can get you a decent English speaking graphic designer for or a developer for 15 bucks an hour. Why would they need to come to you and pay your premium blended rate of 150, 200, 250 an hour. Right. Is really knowing like who are you for? So you know, part of our, our roadmap is our BTO and it's a one pager and we say, you know, there's, there's several components. Just like a VTO has several components but on, on the top there's three different pieces that we really consider part of the vision, an identity piece. And one of them is something called an onlyness statement. It comes from Marty Neumeyer's book Zag, which is a great read if you looking for some marketing and branding identity stuff. But it really says like what are we the only at? And that's not necessarily something that, that is outward facing, it's internal facing, it's who am I uniquely built design called to serve. Who, who, who are the people that I, I can make a dent in the universe with this people group. And right now, I mean agencies, you know, across the board. But especially, I mean I've just seen it more up close in the HubSpot world is well it used to be HubSpot equaled marketing hub. Well Now HubSpot equals CRM, CMS Service Hub Ops hub marketing hub like sales hub service like. And now you have people who are specializing in just one hub or a combination of two hubs or something like that. So now you're really thinking and, and HubSpot's pushing this too, which I think is smart is what are you really good at and who can you really help. Which sort of floats into the hedgehog concept from Jim Collins. Good to great chapter five if you're interested. But what could you be the best in the world at. I started my agency doing web design. I would never call myself a graphic designer. I, you know, would either outsource that or, you know, I could, maybe I could, if they weren't wanting to pay a lot, I could do it. And it was simplistic and thank God for Canva. But if, if you have a few things that you are really, really good at, what can you be in the best in the world at? You need something you are naturally a dominant player at, but then you've got to intersect that with what gets you out of bed in the morning. So that kind of comes back to, I felt like I was naturally good at web design, marketing, some of that stuff, but it wasn't really getting me out of the bed in the morning. What got me out of bed in the morning were the people in the agency holding to the framework and the systems that helped me unlock what those people actually wanted, you know, the owner included, that got me out of bed. And then I saw like, wait a second, I'm pretty good at this. And, oh, people pay for this. So economic engine. So. Because if you only have two out of those three, it's pretty tough to keep going. Like, either you're going to be starving but joyful, I guess, or you could be rich and miserable. And we've all heard about people who've burned out there. But you know, when you're an agency owner or any small business owner, you, chances are a big part of that reason was you got into business because you wanted the freedom, you had some goals, and you probably saw people were already asking you for the kind of help you discovered you could charge money for. And then it just started building from there. What you in fact probably feel like now or have felt like you've built is a prison for yourself. And I, I, I want to wage war on that because it will, it'll feel like hell. And there's no reason that anybody who had the courage to jump out and start a business in particular, one in the agency world, which now is so tied to overall business growth, it's not just, could you make a website and some really cool marketing things. Cool, like it's, my business is going down unless you help me generate leads. And I, I want to make sure that those people stay in the fight because it's really, really hard. And so that's where I think nailing that identity piece and then where you're going by when and why it's important because you're gonna get tired, you're gonna get beat up you know, Mike Tyson, the wise philosopher has said everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. And being a small business owner and being an agency owner is like signing up to be punched in the face every day.

Sometimes that's true. I want to ask you about doesn't matter how many 1, 2, 3 key things agency owners should be doing to better care for, develop and leverage their team. But, and that, that's where we'll wrap up. Just because we're going to be running out of time here.

Sure.

But I'm gonna, I'm gonna shout that out first to say hey, get your brain working on that. And while you're chewing on that, I want to point people towards the diagnostic, the S2 diagnostic for ORI Health Score. And that's at Kenny Lang again like with an e@the end.com health score which is all one word. Go there, take the free assessment and then obviously get in touch with, with Kenny through the site. And if there's other resources you want to point people toward towards as well, Kenny, feel free to. But what's, what's like the obvious, the low hanging fruit like dang, I wish we'd done this earlier in our agency. Here, here's, here's the stuff or the conversely, you know, the stuff that worked really well. That seems like hey, there should be common sense to everybody. It just came naturally to you.

Don't skip out on your one on ones though. Those will do. It's weird because you can't necessarily tie an ROI to it and I know as marketers and agency owners and everything it's KPIs and all this stuff. I mean I'm sure you know Pete at Databox is going to come up with a way to have a metric for this but I, I don't skip on those, maintain them and that's, that's a key piece of that we teach is one on ones and those in those quarterly conversations sort of things to where we have what we call healthy fit conversations. And, and if anybody's interested I'm, I'm happy to send over a free sort of like one pager on some questions and a structure there. But it makes such a huge difference. It's what I think allowed me to punch above my weight was that I got in the dirt and stayed connected with my people. Every other week they were having a one on one with me and it was maybe 30 minutes. I was asking what brings you energy? What robs your energy? And here's a, here's a big one if anybody's daring enough and I don't pat myself on the back because it scared the crap out of me when I asked it, which is what do you know about me that I don't? But I should.

Yeah.

So like ask that question and get the feedback and then don't just take it in, but act on it. You will it inspire a loyalty you didn't know was possible. When you start doing that as a leader, whether you're the owner, whether you're running ops or something else, that's huge. The other thing I would say, and this is specific to our, our visionary and owner friends, people may not do as well as you want them to right out of the gate, they will catch up. But get you a number two, you need that pairing. It will make all the difference in the world. And I'm not saying that every, every success at the last agency was mine, by no means. I mean I made plenty of mistakes. We could fil hours on my mistakes, but over the course of time we nearly doubled revenue and we functioned as a 1 and a 2. And it was tough on both of us, but it ended up producing things that were better. And so make the transition from being founder led to leadership team led and you'll build a business that doesn't always need you if you want to exit. It's far more valuable if it runs on a system than on your personality. And ultimately you're going to be more profitable.

Yeah, I want to, I want to press. I said this is going to be the last one and this, this will be but the one on one. So Eos has the five five five. The quarterly conversation. Here we're talking about how you fit with core values, the rules and responsibilities rocks. But for most mature orgs running on Eos, the default recommendation is hey, you don't need one on ones. On top of that you may need ad hoc meetings, but you want to push as many of those conversations as can happen towards your L10s. Have as much stuff as can go public. Public facing. But it sounds like the recommendation is no, actually you still want bi weekly one on ones with full time folks. Obviously part time people might look less frequent or whatever, but yeah. And in quarterly conversations, is that accurate?

Yeah. And I wouldn't say bi weekly is a sacred cow either. Right. Like figure that part out. But if the only time you're really understanding and talking about how somebody really is is quarterly, it's way infrequent. And yes, I know weekly syncs or level tens or things like that are Meant for as a place to be open and honest. But what I have witnessed is number one, people say that they want radical candor and open, honest communication in a group setting. But the fact of the matter is most people find it jarring and it takes them a while to adjust. We had people freak out at the agency because of how open and honest several of us that got comfortable quickly were being it it. I'm. I'm talking a year minimum to get comfortable and even then not super. People are wired differently. Like I'll share anything, but it's because I know I can argue and debate with a fence post if I need to and. But there are a lot of people who, they will not open up unless you put in the one on one time. I mean you. I know people may be uncomfortable with this, but think of it like a marriage. If you were only ever or even dating, if you only ever talk to that person in a group setting, how well do you think you're actually going to know them as opposed to one on one? It's you and me. I get to ask you questions, I get to keep following up and we're going to go deeper. So there's, there's a depth there that can be achieved. And when you do that, when you're the leader now, you start to understand what motivates them, what scares them and how you can best help them. Because leadership is not a one size fits all game. I know we all want it to be because that maximizes efficiency. But this is not about being efficient, it's about being effective. Because you have to remember at the end of the day, that person will move on or that to another job or they go home to spouse and kids or friends or whatever it is. They're a person. And what you did in the business that day probably won't be remembered, but the relationship will. And your impact on that person will. And you are playing for your reputation that will outlast your own life. And if you play that way, you will win. You may not make the most money, but I guarantee you you will be a winner and you will touch more lives that way.

Yeah, it's a great place to wrap up. Hey, thanks for coming on Point of People website. Anywhere else you want to appoint people.

Yeah, I would also. I'd love to connect with anybody on LinkedIn. So I know it's got his little, you know, slashes and stuff. I don't know why they put that in slash again, but I am Kenny Lang. I did stake my claim on my own name there. So I'm always excited and happy to brag about that, but would love to connect with anybody on LinkedIn and connect with me on the website. I'm happy to answer any questions, comparisons, or just, you know, listen, if you need a safe place to process your wild and crazy ideas without upsetting your team, please just let me know how I can serve you.

Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on today, Kenny. I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.