Journey Mapping Excellence with Tasha "T-Money" on Expert Interviews! | Tasha Dal Bianco

What's up, hub heroes? I'm super excited to bring you today a super duper important conversation. Are you focused on journey mapping? Do you know what your prospects, leads or customers journey is? And do you know what the internal journey for your team members are and how those two collide? I'll just let that set in for a second. But I'm also super excited because I get to hang out with a true friend of mine, Tasha, AKA T Money. I don't know which one I want to call you more during this. I might call you T Money, I might call you Tasha. But Tasha, how the heck are you doing today?

I'm so, so good, George, and it's always, always a pleasure to be in your presence. So I must thank you for having me here today. I'm very excited to talk about this. Very passionate about customer journey mapping. I probably do it several times a day with my clients, so it's very close to me and something I'm really, really well versed in as well.

I love that because I will tell you this, the reason I'm so excited is I have these conversations over and over again with clients and they continue to have the same questions. It's like you think you've been doing inbound for 10 years and you forget it's everybody's first day and people just need to realize how we can actually pay attention. By the way, it might have been their 300th day, might have been their 900th day. I'm still having these conversations, so, so this to me is great now. Okay, Hub heroes, here's the question. Who the heck is Tasha? Well, initially gaining a degree in education, Tasha fell into marketing, specifically HubSpot's marketing hub, over seven years ago now and found an untapped passion for it and has never looked back. I remember those days actually transferring that love for teaching and learning. Tasha is the lead HubSpot implementation specialist at Red Pandas, a HubSpot certified trainer and takes great pleasure in being a part of our clients HubSpot journey. It is fun doing that. Tasha is proactive, a proactive mom to her precious. I love this part, by the way. Jack Russell, Cross pugs, Jugs, Bobo and Ellie has a terrific two year old daughter, Zoe, enjoys camping and. Listen, ladies and gentlemen, I can't make this stuff up. And has had three amateur boxing fights and remains undefeated. In other words, hub heroes, she's a true badass. And today we're going to be talking to you about journey mapping. Ladies and gentlemen, it's time. Let's get into the good stuff. So, Tasha, one of the things I love to do is level set on the sidekick strategy show. So how in the world do you explain when you're helping people through this journey mapping concept and really in this case HubSpot as well? How do you explain lifecycle stages to folks who are just getting started with HubSpot?

This is a really good question and it does happen almost every time. So I kind of tend to. Before they ask me, what's lifecycle stage, I'll literally say, oh, I'm probably sure you're thinking, what's lifecycle stage? And prior to HubSpot allowing us to customize them, I think the conversation was a little bit easier. Now that we can customize them, it opens up a bit of more back and forth, which I'm, I'm all for because I was very keen when that release came out. But the best way I describe this to my clients is life cycle stages are essentially the tag, the bucket, the category, if you will, that we're going to put a contact or a company in at any point of their entire journey with you at your company, from the beginning of subscribing to your incredible content, all the way through to being a promoter, evangelist, lover of your product service. That's generally how I explain it. Nice and short and sharp. Any questions? Does that make sense? And then you can see them kind of going, oh, yeah, okay, cool, I get it.

Yeah. I love when you can take something complex and simplify it and this idea of it's kind of a bucket of time in the relationship that they'll have with you. I also love that you mentioned there was a day before when it was just life cycle stages and a day after where it was life cycle stages and customizable life cycle stages. I'm not really asking the question around that point, but that point might be what started to happen around the question that I'm asking. Let me just get to it. What are some common mistakes to avoid when managing life cycle stages? Thinking about the journey and those buckets, like, how do you manage them? And what have you seen? People kind of mess up.

Thank you for asking me this. More recently, I've started to see, because they're customizable and people don't truly understand what they're for. I'm seeing clients call them really random, not strategic, very tactical, like categories. They're using them almost like tags and categories. And then they've got lists of, you know, 10, 15, 20 life cycle stages. And it doesn't make Sense. And so I explained to them why it doesn't make sense and what we need to do to now fix what they've just done. But that's why, like, HubSpot had a good thing with the lead through, you know, the subscriber through evangelist thing. And I still stand by. I think that if you don't know what your life cycle stages need to be, just stick with the default ones because they're better than trying to customize them and make them really random and.

Not meaningful of what it's supposed to do before you go customizing it. And one of the things, Tasha, that I've kind of is default, you might want to pause and think about if you actually want to customize. Many times I've seen it customized because it's less than what was default. Now here's the thing. I wanted to kind of double down again. We're talking about life cycle stages. We're gonna, we're gonna broaden out, folks. We're gonna talk bucket in time through these like, or different buckets of time through this journey.

So when this is where we start to. And I have, I have a really good resource that I share with my, with, you know, all your listeners. Because when I do with my clients are like, send this to me now. So I'm like, okay, fine, it's coming, it's yours, it's free on the Internet. But it's. You've got the life cycle stage. Kind of like if you're looking at, you know, put people in through that entire journey. Often you have this conversation with clients like, oh, but when they're sitting at marketing lead status, we do a whole bunch of stuff with them and it's like, yeah, because a marketing qualified lead is not a marketing qualified lead. It just depends on what they're doing, contacts, lead status. And then we use, to answer your question, we use lead status to kind of nurture them through this marketing stage, if you will, with different types of content and events and webinars and all types of stuff. Eventually, when they're ready, forge with lead status might not be for everyone. I feel like not every client education industry keeps coming to me because it's where I'm well versed in, where they have this. An enormous amount of touch points or correspondence with a client, a prospective student, if you will, before they have a deal. So any of those activities, any of those correspondence touch points before a commercial opportunity is there, I would categorize as a lead status.

I love this because I think if they listen to what you're saying here you mentioned the word deal, which deal means okay, it's officially an opportunity, we're going to put it into a pipeline, we're going to put it through some stages. And so lead status in this idea of what are the steps that sales and marketing need to take? Pre sale conversation, pre revenue conversation, pre creating a deal, what are those steps? Then you have to think about your business. It could be anything from like call one, call to email one, email two to like you started to mention it's like the three layers of MQLs or the two layers of leads or again very customizable. Right. So this then creates a place where there might be some confusion to the typical HubSpot user. And so I have to ask the question because they're probably asking the question, well, how the heck do I manage that? Meaning there's no real drag and drop Kanban board, Do I create a workflow? Do people collect? Click it on the CRM like so I'll just ask the question, Tasha, how can businesses effectively manage and update lead statuses in HubSpot to then be paired with the life cycle stage? We're going to put it into a pipeline, we're going to put it through some stages. And so lead status in this idea of what are the steps that sales and marketing need to take? Pre sale conversation, pre revenue conversation, pre creating a deal, what are those steps? Then you have to think about your business. It could be anything from like call one, call two, email one, email two to like you started to mention it's like the three layers of MQLs or the two layers of leads or again, very customizable. Right. So this then creates a place where there might be some confusion to the typical HubSpot user. And so I have to ask the question because the they're probably asking the question, well, how the heck do I manage that? Meaning there's no real drag and drop Kanban board. Do I create a workflow? Do people collect? Click it on the CRM like so I'll just ask the question, Tasha, how can businesses effectively manage and update lead statuses in HubSpot to then be paired with the life cycle stages and the process that they're trying to go through?

Yeah, beautiful. I love this question. And it's also something that I tend to also have to. Objection. Handle or warn team members and say lifecycle stage is almost something that's hidden in the background and that you guys don't need to be manually changing. And I want you to work out of lead status because that's what we're going to customize with all your steps and make sure that it's reflective to you and you will be updating it on the contacts record in the CRM.

That's really interesting. So literally, hub heroes, I'm having a moment because I have always kind of thought about life cycle stages as the hero, but lead status as the support. And I can actually see Tasha, where you're coming in and saying, well, if it is the pre sales process and we're creating lead status as those steps, why couldn't we empower or activate or change life cycle stages based on the status that they're now in through this process, then their lead status being the hero and actually life cycle stages being the Robin, if you will, to the Batman. Very interesting way to start to look at that. Now if we think about that and we go in that direction, it gives new meaning to this next question that I want to ask, which is what kind of insights can lead status provide for sales and marketing teams along the way dependent upon how they're using it?

Yeah, good. Another, another great question, George. I love them all. So lead status because of what it is as being like a, you know, a tag or a tag contact property on that person as to where they're up to in the journey prior or pre deal. It's a good representation of what the data looks like right now. So I've got 50 leads sitting in, first call attempted, 10 leads sitting in, you know, initial call booked or something like that. That's typically the best type. In my opinion, the best type of reporting. Lead status is going to give us why we love life cycle stage. And I'm sure you probably feel similar is life cycle stage reporting in HubSpot is so much better. It's by far in, in my opinion, just way more robust. And I can give better indications of new leads in a month that converted or that haven't converted because as we know some people might come in, they're in our system for much a longer period of time than, you know, someone else might type of thing. The lead status gives us kind of like in the moment reporting what our data looks like. Lifecycle stage reporting can give us a lot more holistic reporting.

Love the idea that we're tying this to reporting and I love the idea of it being holistic. And it's funny because I think they're dependent upon what you're trying to do. I think there is a need for even that simpler bucketized, whether it be reporting or whether it be A list or a view the way that you're looking at things based on lead status. So here's the thing. We've kind of combined lifecycle stages, lead statuses. We've talked about a pre sales process. We've got to give it the handoff, right? The journey. We're mapping the journey. We're not just mapping part of the journey, we're mapping the full journey. And so when you think about that at some point, and you said it earlier, we get to creating a deal. Explain to those same humans that you explained before life cycle stages and lead status. How do you explain pipelines and deal stages in HubSpot to those humans?

The best way I've found recently for people that are new to CRMs or new to just sales tools in general. I say it as every person that walks through the door of your business isn't necessarily going to be someone that can, you can sell to. You have to do some type of qualifying and figuring out whether or not they are indeed someone you can sell to. When you determine, however you get there, lead statuses. Right. But when you determine this person is an actual commercial opportunity, there's money on the table. We can start talking about signing a contract, whatever, whatever the product or service is, right? That is when a deal should be raised.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I've tried to say this so many times. When you're about to talk about money or you know there's going to be a money conversation, you're going into it now in that explanation, there's obviously going to be multiple stages inside of a pipeline. So how can businesses customize deal stages to match their unique sales process? Like how do you explain or show that of like, hey, this is kind of the plays or paths or things that your, your internal team is going to need to go through. Just talk us about customizing deal stages to match that unique sales process.

Yeah, of course. So if you're, if you've been in HubSpot before, you know how easy it is to literally go to sales settings, pipeline deals and then customize. Like it's literally a matter of changing the words. And I tell this to my clients as well. My making the updates in HubSpot is actually quite straightforward and there's so much support out there. The hardest part is getting the right strategy or the right process, which is what you've asked me, George, on a mind map or in a process where you go, okay, cool, this is what we do. So I have, and I don't know whether or not I Do a screen share or just share this with you afterwards. But we have this Miro journey mapping. I'm sure everyone's used some type of iteration of this which is like Visio, lucidchart something, right? Excel spreadsheet for all I care, just do this and it's a matter of going, okay, what are the stages in the pipeline? If you're really not sure where to start? HubSpot's default ones are a good starting point. Every business would have some type of stage or steps that they're doing already with their prospects or deals to get them through that, that journey closer to making the purchase. And one thing that we will always ask, so we do like a discovery session with our clients and we say, okay, what needs to be true or what? What's the objective? What's the decision the client has to make before they can get further to the purchase? Closer to the purchase. And that generally starts getting to think, oh, okay, yeah, well we do this and then we do this and then we do that. And I'm like, there's some of your stages. And where we, I think come in and give them a bit of hand holding support is just. Because sometimes that can end up being like 15 stages. And we're like, okay, let's try and condense it a bit. Because 15 stages is a lot in HubSpot as we know. And then we're always thinking about how can we report on this. We just support them with making it a bit more succinct and very clear as to how we can truly help a prospect through the pipeline, through the funnel and just give them everything that they need to make an informed purchasing decision.

Yeah, I love that. And by the way, if you're listening to this and you're like, I want to see the images, I want to see the links. Well, you need to head over to community hub heroes.com because that's where they're going to be. And if you're watching this, just look down because Tasha is going to share the information. We're going to have it in the show notes for you and you're going to be rocking and rolling. But let's get back to the good stuff. I've been setting you up this entire time, Tasha, by the way, setting you up for this question that I think eludes most HubSpot users when they're getting started or they're thinking about this kind of mapping or mapping the journey. And that is, we've talked about three independent things, but how in the world do they work Together. In other words, how do life cycle stages, lead status, properties and deal stages work hand in hand, in perfect harmony, if you will, to create a seamless customer journey?

This is definitely something that I have asked, I've been asked before and most people are visual. And this Miro board that you see, when you see it, I think it's all going to bring everything together because it, it does this beautiful layered, like trickle down effect. Lifecycle stage, lead status, deal stage. If you want to get into like tickets as well, there's some ticket stages, but it's this idea of, you know, lifecycle stage might be open, might be opportunity, right? And then you've got a lead status which is open deal and then the deal stage is like proposal sent. So in theory they all marry up. All three of those are in the same column, if you will. And we use workflows, so this is perfect. The perfect use case is obviously Sales Pro and Marketing Pro with workflows. There are workarounds if you don't have those two particular subscriptions, but that's where we use workflows to help us do some system updates, to update contact properties or lifecycle stages if we need to. I don't want to get too like technical because I know we just want to give you how they all marry up, but definitely using workflows and this mirror map to put it out there, make it really visual. That's when I see the light bulb in my client's head going, oh, Tasha, okay. I see how it all marries up.

For us and that's the magic moment when they have that aha moment when the light bulb comes on and you're like, okay, now we're cooking with salt, we're going to be able to get somewhere. Speaking of that, Tasha, cooking with salt and getting it. You know, one of the things that I love to do with all the content that we create is thinking about this idea of mindsets or best practices or principles. And so when you think about this conversation that we're having at a higher level of just journey mapping in general, can you share some of the mindset or mindsets needed to manage these elements effectively and actually think about mapping the journey for your customer or your internal team.

Really, really good question. And I find with setting the expectations. So like I said before, we do a bit of a kickoff with our clients when we're doing this with them. Clients that I'm just telling they have to do this. I'll say the same thing. Give yourselves. If you haven't got a journey Map, get the buy in of the team to be in this session where you're going to ask some silly questions, dig into. Okay, but how, why do you make that call? How long do you wait before you follow up again? Like no question should be off the table. So have an open mind to know that there might be some silly questions. You might feel a bit uncomfortable because I'm going to keep asking you the same thing to try and get a different answer because I'm really trying to understand what the process is. Are there gaps? Most of the time there are. Can we make it better? Can we get to a point where we all love this customer journey map so much? I can go and put it into HubSpot and the whole business is going to know exactly what we're doing at any point in time with our customer journey. So I think that mindset needs to be open obviously and just ready to explore what you're doing and not from a point of oh, Big Brother's watching. I want to know everything you're doing and how many calls you make. No, we, we want to help you have a really powerful CRM that's going to automate where it can. We haven't even touched Automations yet, George. But there's a whole nother level to this. Right, which is Automations. But where can we use basic automations to make your job a little bit easier? Sales or service? How can we create some productivity reports for this journey map that's just going to make your life easier so you can sell more to the people that actually want to be sold to.

So good. And I love this idea of open minded. I love this idea of building a culture that isn't like Big Brother. Ish. But I'll double down, double click, whatever you want to call it. This idea of that questions are powerful and you even said like no question should be off the table. Like if you have a question, you should be asking that question because it's going to get you into magical places. And it makes me think about the seven whys theory. Right? Or philosophy of like if you keep asking a question on the question on top of the question, you'll get to what you actually need to know to make smart decisions. Speaking of kind of smart decisions, we're talking about an entire process here, right? We're talking about marketing and sales. We're kind of talking about alignment. Ut's the fact that there could be some simple automations and even more automations. It's a complex system with a platform and people to build a process. So what are some of the common challenges that businesses face when managing these elements and thinking about journey mapping? And when you kind of list out, here's the challenges, have you seen ways that teams have been able to overcome those challenges?

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I've yet to come across a challenge that cannot be overcome. And if anyone, if people, I'm assuming, George, you're probably the same. And anyone listening is very similar. We love a good challenge. When someone comes to me with something that I can't solve for them right away, I'm like, oh, yes, this is perfect. Give me some time, let me figure it out. So I think what comes to mind most recently is a, is an example a fairly large sales team. They already had a sales process. Everyone was doing it their own way. In comes Tasha to do a customer journey mapping workshop. And a lot of pushback from the team because they're like, oh, but we do it this way. And we're doing like this and, and I'm asking why and we're discovering, we're figuring out what's going on and how we can, you know, help them just be like always. You're similar, George. I want to empower people to use the system better. So I don't want to make your lives harder. I'm here to make this easier for you. So it's, I think one of the challenges and this, this goes for smaller teams. Doesn't have to be a big team. Could be that you've got particularly, and I'm not trying to generalize, but sometimes salespeople stuck in certain processes, this works for me. I'm not going to change it. I'm happy with this. Why would I change? Like, I totally get it, but how can I help you sell more, close more, be better, like stand out from the rest? If you're not open to just changing a few little things here and there. Little things. Like I said, we didn't really go into automations, but sometimes they're not using any automations and we do something really simple like let's give them a deal checkbox which says enroll them in automation. That gives the rep a little bit more power over. Okay, I don't have to put every prospect into automation if I don't want to, but I've trained them how to do it and the uptake is incredible because they're like, yeah, of course I want to do it. I just want to have control over when they're having an automation. So I think it's just dealing with change. Change management is a Big thing.

It's funny, us humans, there literally was a book written who Moved my Cheese just based on the fact that we don't like change. And what's funny to me, to hear you talk about that, Tashi, it's like you don't realize that the one or two, two or three micro changes that you make, especially in the sales process, could literally mean hundreds if not thousands of dollars in your wallet, yet you're still kind of stuck in that mode. Marketers. One or two small changes, two or three small changes and it could literally mean the difference of, you know, double or triple the type of qualified leads that you're handing over to sales. It can be these small things make big differences. So let's think about this too, because one of the things I've learned after training people over and over again is they kind of want to see the end to understand why they're starting something in the beginning. And so what are some tactical ways to segment and nurture leads based on and I'm going back to lead status and life cycle stage. Like think about just tactical segmentation, nurturing conversations. Where does your brain go at those two properties in the HubSpot system?

Depending on this, I guess the tactic of the lead nurturing, if it's an email blast type of thing or if it's an event that you're inviting them to or some type of drip campaign where you're educating them on a series of questions that you get asked at this stage of the journey. Lists is always so, so powerful. Like I, I don't think people spend enough time in lists. In HubSpot's dynamic list or smart list if you will. So the ones that dynamically update based off of a criteria that you set, so, so powerful. Because if you've got that list set right and if it, whether it's just as simple as lead status equals blah, that's better than like nothing, right? And then using that list, like we said, if it's a, if it's an email that we're sending, a series of emails, maybe there's some SMS is chucked in there, whatever it might be that you need to help them get through, educating them, nurturing them, truly educating and nurturing. Like I don't want to see any type of salesy stuff in those emails. When I see clients come to me with salesy stuff in there, like nurturing emails, like, this is not nurturing, this is not nurturing at all. And then if we're talking, we're only talking about like pre sales but if I can, I will go into sales a little bit. So like in the pipeline, if you've got Sales pro and you're using sequences, super powerful, but it has to be crafted really tactically at the, for the various stages. So I don't want to be like, I'm keen on sharing with my clients. Like don't just create these generic sales sequences that we get and I delete the minute I see them. Make them stand out, make them different. And if you're scared and they, and they are often they are scared about automating some of these emails, I'm like, HubSpot sequences can give you the power to not have it fully automated.

I like that kind of like, yeah, automated with training wheels per se almost. So let's, let's dive in a little bit more. Right. Because I'm in my brain, I'm overarching or thinking of the overarching, just mapping the journey in itself. I'm also still trying to stay focused on like we're talking about these, you know, features in HubSpot to do the greater good of the mapping. Can you share some success stories or a success story or examples of businesses that have effectively utilized these features in HubSpot to accomplish the goal of mapping that journey for their potential customers and internal teams?

Uh, yeah, yeah, one, one comes to mind. So quiz marketing over the last couple of years, I think it's coming to, I think it might be coming to the end of its boom or maybe it's already ended. But quiz marketing has been really fun for the last couple of years. People are really keen on like self diagnosing themselves with things, whatever it might be, like favorite Harry Potter fan or something like that. So we've had a strategy for a few of our clients over the years where we've got this, you know, quiz that they've created and someone that's completed the quiz which is very, I'll say top funnel. So it's not a, it's. They don't finish the quiz and they're ready to be sold to. They finish the quiz and they're ready to be educated about something, whatever the outcome of the quiz was, right. So they complete a quiz, they go into a marketing status, the lead status, sorry, and it could be something as simple as, you know, quiz completed lead, something like that. And while they're in this stage, they're being nurtured, they're being told about the, you know, the problem that they think they might have and just educated in ways that they might be able to look after themselves. This is a health problem. I can't pick it up. But there's like just different types of educational content being sent to them. I think we had it on a fortnightly, so every second week basis these guys had a very strong content marketing engine as well. So there was always content being created, podcasts, blogs, videos. And they got into a really nice rhythm of even though we set up these emails, they were adding onto them type of thing. So these marketing leads turned into subscribers, if you will. At the end of all of the emails, there is a call to action. I said before, don't make them salesy. The call to action was to book in a, what do they call it, that. We were very careful with the wordage we used here because we didn't want it to come across as salesy. But it was essentially booking in a call with like a specialist, like a health specialist, someone that you can talk to for free, 30 minutes and have a chat with them about this issue that you think you might have the return for them of people clicking that after about six months of being in this funnel of just being educated, three to six months, we found on average being educated about the problem, the, the solutions possibly out there, they then click the, the link to have that free, you know, consultation, if you will. Then once that just that conversation was had, they turned into deals. And I think they're closing almost, almost 100% of them. I want to say 100%, but I'm sure there's the, the odd ones that are coming out there. So that's that example of having really nice marketing content being sent at a lead status stage, whatever that stage might be, and then having a classy, not salesy call to action that allows someone to say, okay, cool, I'm, I'm ready to be, you know, quote, unquote, sold to. I'm ready to be spoken to about something that you might be able to sell me on. And that was handled completely, completely, almost completely by automation. There was a little bit of tweaking to get it where it needed to, but using workflows, using emails, lead statuses. And we also, slight tangent, we started doing a little bit of lead scoring on those people in there based off of the emails that they were interacting with.

Love it, love it, love it. So obviously, I realize this is kind of the beginning of a conversation for many people if they want to dive in, Tasha, and it might be within HubSpot, it might be outside of HubSpot. You might be sharing some links, books, tools, boards, Whatever. But what resources or tools within HubSpot or outside of HubSpot would you recommend for someone looking to master these areas that we've been talking about and really be able to focus on kind of this journey mapping idea that we're bouncing around in.

Yeah, 100. So if you're not familiar with Hubspots Academy, get familiar with Hubspots Academy because there is a big bunch of incredible content on there that, yeah, I think I refer clients to it almost daily. I can take you through a bunch of stuff. I can give you links and articles to read and courses. The HubSpot stuff is good and they've built it for us to use. And you're paying for it. You're paying for HubSpot, you've got access to it. And a bunch is free as well. So get it, get into it. Number one. And they've got a good search function on the Academy, so you can type a keyword and stuff is going to come up. I think the one that I probably use the most is my. For my sales people, sales tools because I take them through it and then they need a little bit more help. So I give them the sales tools Pro course and 36 minutes, I get it done. The Academy is great. And yeah, like George said, I will share like this article that was written by a colleague. He interviewed me to get there and it's very thorough about how we build a customer journey map with our clients. And it's about 10 minutes to read, but it literally does all the question asking. This is what we ask our clients. And then at the very bottom of it, there's a link to a Miro board template. You can go off and clone it for yourself and start getting through it.

Love it. So we'll make sure that that is definitely in the show notes. So one of the things, Tasha, that I like to do, I like to be actionable, like give people tactics. So when you think about the conversation we're having today and obviously the training you've done historically with your clients, what would you say? The top three, two, four? I don't know. The number's not actually like set in stone, but what are the top three action steps that listeners can take right after this podcast just to kind of move in the right direction?

I prepared for this one, George. I actually wrote it down. Even though I know, I know what this needs to be at the end of these calls that I have with clients. And I think today's Wednesday for me. I've already had this call four times this Week. At the end of this customer journey mapping session, what you need to do. Read that article. I know it sounds like a mad plug, but it is very helpful. It's purely helpful content. Please read that article because it's going to tell. It's telling. Tells you how we do it. Right? Do your customer journey map. So the article is 10 minutes. Do your customer journey map. Now, I would apply, I would give yourselves, depending on how big your team is and how many cooks you want to have in that kitchen, one to two and a half, maybe three hours to get it done. Sit roundtable. You can do it virtually if you want. We've done them virtually, but post Covid, people are meeting each other again. So, hey, let's. If we can get in the same room, let's get in the same room. Have a whiteboard, don't bring your computers. You just need yourselves and your brains. So do that workshop. And then there has to be an owner. My final point is it has to be an owner who's going to drive building this customer journey map and give yourself. Once you've done the map and you've built it in your lucidchart, mirror board, Excel, spreadsheet, visio, whatever, break each section. So do that workshop. And then there has to be an owner. My final point is it has to be an owner who's going to drive building this customer journey map and give yourself. Once you've done the map and you've turned down into a small achievable timeframe that you can get it done. Because looking at it, the big picture can be a little bit overwhelming. I'm being honest because, and like you said it before, it's. It's from the beginning of the engagement with your business, potentially all the way through to upsell, cross, sell delights, turn them into evangelists. So it can get overwhelming. Looking at it at that point, I would just go laser focused one stage at a time. And slowly but surely you'll have a whole process by the time you get the whole process built in HubSpot, you have to refresh it.

Very nice. Yeah, it'll be like, time to redo this bad boy. But only if you actually do it the first time can you redo it. And when you redo it, you can make it better. So it's not a bad thing, people. It sounds like it might be, but it's a good thing. So, Tasha, you didn't know these next pieces were coming? I always like to leave a little bit of surprise for folks who are doing the interview. But if you have to take the whole big bundle of conversation that we had today, what's the one thing that you hope people take away from today's episode?

I would say, George, the one thing. A customer journey map is so much more than just a sales and marketing initiative. It is an entire. It's a business operation. It's for the whole business.

So it seems like with that, it's a team sport and you might want to get more people kind of to play the game when you're building this out initially and then being able to focus to those sections. I love that as far as like a one takeaway. So, Tasha, if people have questions for you, they want to connect, where do you want to point them?

Oh, hit me up on LinkedIn for sure. I think LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, my email. Really anywhere. I don't mind. I'm very contactable, more than happy to have a chat with anyone and everyone at any point in time. If anyone is listening, though, they're in Sydney or even close to Sydney in Australia. We are running an event at the end of the year and October 31st and I'll actually be giving a. It's not a keynote, but it's a talk. I'll be giving a talk on this topic, so I would love to see you there. If you're around. I could definitely get some super, super discounted tickets for any Hub Heroes listeners, of course. And I'm literally talking about the same thing that we've talked about today. Plus we've got a bunch of other awesome speakers as well.

I love that. So if you're a Hub Hero and you're in the Sydney area and you want some discounted tickets to an event where you can learn tons of stuff from great speakers, then you need to go ahead and let Tasha AKA T Money know about that. Listen, Javiers, this has been great, Tasha, you did a great job. Great information. If you are listening to the audio podcast of this and you want more, well, you should head to community.hubheroes.com you'll get the show notes, you'll see the graphics, you'll have the links. But until next time, or until we see you in the community, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble human and we'll see you on the next episode of the Hub Heroes Sidekick Strategies.