Let's chat about what it could look like in business.
Dr. J.J. Peterson explains how leaders can combine ambition with empathy and joy, drawing from improv and narrative theory. He shows how to get organizational buy-in by inviting people into your story, and argues that self-care and joy aren't luxuries but practices that build resilience. As AI grows, he says, humans need a clearer point of view than ever.
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Sam. Good morning, LinkedIn friends, Value First Nation. Welcome to a special episode of Value First Humans. Excited to welcome Dr. J.J. peterson onto the show today. Good to see you, man.
Good to see you as well. Excited to be here.
Yeah, I'm excited, too. We've got, of course, our trusty, helpful human, George B. Thomas, here with us. Happy Thursday, George.
Happy Thursday, Chris. Jj, I'm so glad that you're on this. It'll mean that I can talk less, listen more, and, and hopefully learn a little bit along the way, but doing good and just glad to be here today.
Yeah, it's. It's helpful. Like, I think one of the things I'm gonna learn is how, you know, it's nice to know that there's other people trying to tackle this stuff right now. It can feel, especially doing stuff on LinkedIn, like you're shouting into the void and nobody's paying attention. But I'm excited. As. As I was prepping for this yesterday, I listened to. Started listening to your uni podcast, Badass Softy jj, and just read, like, the first half of the first title. Stop playing by outdated rules. I'm, like, all in. Let's go. Yeah, how's that?
Hang on a second, Chris. I, I. Because I want to hear what you're. Where you're going, but I have to tell JJ this. Chris passed the link over to me. I started to listen to the first episode. Like, I listen to most podcasts doing work, and it was like, background noise. I got maybe three minutes in, and I was like, let me rewind this and let me just put my work to the side. And by the way, maybe I'll just go and hit the follow on Spotify, because this is, like, right up my alley. So I literally stopped and, like, just watch the screen and listen to the episode, which I rare, again, rarely do. So I, I just. Thank you for bringing this content to the world.
Chris.
Go ahead. Sorry.
Oh, my gosh. Thank you.
No. Yeah. Like, you're gonna make me tear up.
Right off the bat. This is gonna be. And I think there's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be a lot of me crying today, so we'll just.
I wouldn't have it any other way. Tell us, like, I mean, how's it going? Where'd this come from? Why? You can hear it on the podcast that this is a very, very important endeavor for you and just love to love to hear where it's coming from.
You know, I think there, well, one, There's. There's a bunch of different things that kind of came together that have been happening in my life for 30 years. You know, I remember about 20 some years ago, I actually toured and did improv comedy. And when you do clean improv comedy, you can do it at the clubs and. But what people don't really realize is you don't get paid anything. When you play at clubs where people, comedians make their money as private events. You know, you're just like, if you're going to Omaha, you're getting paid 50 bucks for the weekend and you're paying your own gas and your hotel. So you're losing money on these shows. Like, I have so much respect for comedians who are doing that, but they're honing their craft. But so what we did a lot was private events. And at those private events, I would see people get up on stage and have this smile or excitement or go get them kind of attitude, or they would be teaching and then they would walk off stage and I would watch the people around them cower. I would watch them be afraid, and I would watch them do and say things that just kind of was like, oh, there's a lot of incongruency to who you are on stage and who you are as a leader. And I saw what that did to their teams. That was the biggest thing is I'm background with the stage and the lights and the microphone and the makeup and all these people and they're like shaking in their boots and. And these leaders were leaving behind a wake, really, of damage behind them. And that was 20 years ago. And I actually genuinely said, I remember getting tired of being touring and being on the road. And I said to my friend one time, I just want to go back and raise up the next gener of leaders who are a bit more healthy and come at it from a place of servant heart, basically, is kind of the words that I was using back then. And I did. So I went back and got my master's and I became a professor and I started teaching at universities and working. Then I moved out of being a professor into. Into the space of working with leadership. So in the admin space. So I would run student council and work with the RAs, and I. I became dean of students. So I Working on that side of things with really trying to work on the leadership side outside of that, that was 20 years ago. And I've kind of continued that attitude through even like going into my own career in marketing and branding and communication and working in Hollywood and all these different places. And more recently, I would say in the past five to 10 years, I've actually had the opportunity to be around some of what I would say the most influential, incredible leaders in the world. People who are changed, like New York Times bestselling offers authors, people who are charging, you know, $100,000 for a speech and going, oh, I can be more driven in many ways. Like, I can be more ambitious. I remember when I came to work with Donald Miller at StoryBrand. One of the things he asked me when I came on was, what's. What's your big dream? And I remember telling him, because at the time, I had kind of come out of education and had some other kind of a failed project in television that I was doing, and then kind of came out, and he said, what's your big dream? And I said, oh, you know, I think my big dream would be I want to own a home. I want to be able to do, like, take a month off during the summer and then maybe also work on a film in the summer, and I want to travel. That would be my big dream. And he goes, no, no, no. I want to be president. What's your big dream? And he was telling me in that moment, and he doesn't really want to be president, but he was like, no, no, no, you'll get a home. You'll get these things. What? Actually, you need to be more ambitious and really realize because your influence can actually have a broader impact. And so it's kind of been this. I would honestly say that again, the past 20 years of me going, looking at leaders and going, oh, man, I can be more ambitious and more audacious in my goals and more driven with the mindset of being. Having a greater impact. But also, I've been around a lot of those people who are just plain jerks. And so it's kind of like I've learned from both sides. I've learned from the side of that says you can have a soft heart. And I've also learned from the side that says you can be incredibly ambitious. And I don't. I've been looking for the people who are doing both of those things, and that's really where Badass Softy came about, is I get to interview people who I see as doing both of those things. Like one of the people I just had lunch with yesterday with a friend of mine who ran the number two restaurant in America, and he's now doing incredibly creative things with huge companies, like revamping the way stadiums work when it comes to, like, customer experience. And yet he's also. We ate at this little crappy hole in the wall burger place. And he was, like, giddy about it and had so much fun and was the kindest person to the wait staff. And it's like, you can have both. You don't need to be this jerk to get ahead, but you also don't need to squash your ambition. If. When you're sensitive and you know and have want to lead with your heart, man, this.
This resonates a little bit. Hey, George.
Oh, my God.
There's so much that, like, I feel like we're brothers from another mother, because there's so many parallels. First of all, you use one of my favorite phrases, servant leadership on the planet. I still think that if we come to serve instead of sell, if we come to add value instead of extract, we're just going to show up in a different way in life. And I do have those moments, jj, like you, where I'll never forget when I was working with Marcus Sheridan, and there we're sitting there, there's this whiteboard, and he said to me and another person, he goes, I want you to write on the whiteboard how much you want to make. And I'm like, I'm not going to do that. He's like, no, I want you to write on the whiteboard how much. I'm like, I'm not going to do that. And so finally, I got so frustrated, I walked up to the whiteboard and I wrote $250,000 a year. And he goes, why did you write that? And I said, because it's unachievable. And you're making me write something on the whiteboard. My limiting beliefs. To which he didn't even skip a beat. Jj, he said, you'll make that at some point in your career. Career. And there was a moment where, like, that was a trigger for me of, like, wait, is that possible? And so, like, there's, again, just the things that you went through in life. I think about badass, right? I was in the military, and I was a bouncer at a bar. But I also think about Softy, and I think about being a pastor at a church. And now the guy that I show up every day to help humans be, well, better humans. And so. Oh, Chris, let's. I don't know where we're gonna go.
But let's get into it.
Well, it reminds me of our. Our conversation that we had at Inbound 23, where you were, like, thinking about how you're going to start working for yourself, and there was this dilemma between, like, you know, do we scale up or do we keep it the same and like, because, like, that agency life, right, Whatever that's supposed to be. I. I can't. You said I can't be that guy. Like, that's not who I am. And I challenged a little bit and said, like, man, you could impact a lot of people, though. Like, if we can scale up in the right ways.
And.
And this is where we're at now. So, yeah, resonates a little bit. But.
And I think, like, even just that what you're bringing up, I think there. There are people who are, I would say, just unapologetically ambitious that in that conversation would be like, I'm gonna cut my staff. We're gon this. We're going to run. We're going to.
And all.
And like, we're going to make millions. We're going to dominate the marketplace. Right. And only do that and again, probably leave awake. And then there's other people who, on the other side on, like, say the softy side would be like, you know what? I don't know if I'm going to be able to have this kind of influence. Who am I to deserve or even dream that I could do this? Why are people going to pay me to do it? Right? And in those moments, you can lean into one or the other. And what I'm finding in this kind of conversation is there's a dance between the two. It's less like a balance. I don't. I actually don't believe in balance in this kind of stuff, that it's really a dance, because for George to be able to do that, he has to have that badass side. But if he only leans into that exclusively, he's probably going to destroy himself, his family, his team. But if you carry the other, if you only go down here, then the influence is gone. If you actually have. If you are a thought leader who has great ideas, who has great products that actually help people move forward, then I. You know, as a servant leader, George, I think it actually is your obligation to be a little bit more badass than this, because there are people who need your voice, and there are people who need to get what you have, and it helps them. Now, if you're a scoundrel who's ripping people off, then that's a whole other thing. But if you have integrity and are actually helping people, I believe part of being a good human is the duty to actually use your gifts and move them forward so more people can be influenced and impacted by it.
I love this so much. Chris, you might not talk at all, by the way.
Hey, I'm okay. Just before you can start like this, this is the role that I, like, have chosen and want. Like, when. When JJ reached out, you know, and we started talking about the possibility of, like, because he's. He's been on, like, manufacturing, marketing shows, like, this is where I just let the universe just tell me what's going on, then randomly reaches out. In October, George and I are starting the series at the same time, and I can't think of two more value. First, humans and these two guys right here. So I'm happy to just sit back after this at least, and let's let you guys go.
Yeah, no, it's. It's funny because you're right. There's this thing that we. We play in our brain. And again, you can call it limiting beliefs, you can call it whatever you want, but for the longest time, I would position myself as, hey, I'm a great Robin to a Batman. I'm a great number. You know, two to a number one. And I had to realize when I actually left agency life and started my own business, it's like, hey, it's time to start to show up with number one energy. The very interesting thing about that is you can only use number one energy so long before you have to stop and fill your cup back up. And so that's. That's something that I've had to kind of learn along the way is like, yes, you can be a badass, but you're going to need to make a pit stop. Like, if you think of Formula one or nascar, like, they don't stay out there the whole time. The tires don't last, though. Like, and so this thing of. It's gonna sound like, again, I'm bringing it up for a reason, but I had to learn about self care Softy, so that I could be a badass when I was on the track. Right. And so doing things that some people would look at and be like, dude, you went with your wife to get your toenails and fingernails. Yes, I did. You took that week off even though your owner of an organization. Aren't you afraid it's gonna like that? No, I'm not. Like, but you have to have. And again, not balance, but just a flow of like, I'm gonna be a badass, but I know at some point I'm gonna have to refuel myself as well.
Absolutely. And there's actually research that backs that up. Like, it's not. This is where, you know, my, My world is in education and my PhD. And so I'm always like, okay, up with research. And an episode I just released this week on the Badass Softy was about joy and about the idea that I think a lot of times we view joy as a reward for the hard work after we've completed it. So it's like, you get to celebrate after you've done the work, but during the work, it's like, all right, guys, come on. All right, it's enough laughter. Get back to work. All right, guys, quit goofing around. Get back to work. Like, that's kind of the attitude we have. But the research actually finds that those of us who experience and look for and mark joy in the middle of the work actually recover from stress and illness at an exponential rate. It's like 30 to 50% better when you actually, in the middle of work, pause for, like, things like what you're talking about. Like, you know, whether you like having your toes done or not. Loving your wife in that way and spending time with her and honoring her, I bet brought you so much joy. And then on top of the pampering and everything else, but that moment of going like, hey, I'm going to take a Friday morning and I'm going to be with my wife, and we're going to laugh about the fact that I'm getting my toes done. And we're going to. This is going to be a memory we're creating, actually scientifically improves your ability to recover from stress and illness. So it. When you add these things in, when you actually say, I am going to allow joy, I'm going to be driven, but we're going to laugh. I'm going to be driven, but we're also going to emphasize relationship. I'm going to be driven, but we're also. When you do those things together, your team performs better, you perform better. And crazy enough, your body performs better, you actually can sustain the drive longer when you implement joy in the middle of it all.
See, I love this so much. First of all, I did really enjoy hanging out with my wife. I. I looked at her about halfway through, and I'm like, how you guys be hiding this from us like this. But what's funny is I love how the universe works, Chris, because this morning, my devotion was rejoice. Again, I say rejoice. And so, like, you're talking about, like, this medical side of it. All of a sudden, my brain goes to the spiritual side of joy, which, by the way, great episode, because I think this is where you're Talking about the Disney characters as well on your show with Joy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, you gotta go listen to the podcast. It's super dope. Okay, that's my sales pitch. But this idea of like having these root elements, Joy being one of them. When you think of. By the way, I'm going into interview mode. Chris. When you think of like a badass softy and maybe like the, the pillars or the foundation or the emotions or the mindsets, like, what things come to mind where you're like, okay, usually when I see these badass softies, it's this, this and this working in conjunction together.
Yeah. It's kind of funny you, you know, you mentioned bring that because it's some of the things that I'm working through right now, to be very honest of like, trying, I'm like, you know, I'm the kind of guy who's like, what's the framework around this? And what is hard is I don't think it is prescriptive for everybody because we're all different. And I think that's part of it is leaning into who you are. The thing that I'm coming to in this is understanding. And I borrow this from my friend Tim Arnold, who is. Is incredible when it comes to kind of this cognitive, like, dissonance that often happens. The where I land on this is understanding that it isn't about either or thinking. That's. I think one thing we get trapped in these limited beliefs of, well, I have to be like, I have to be. Well, here's a phrase that comes up. You, you. You don't get into leadership to make people like you or like, you can't be everybody's friend. And I understand the premise behind that because it actually, or I'm going to be brutally honest, those kind of words that we use in leadership, I think create this either or kind of thinking. Is it true that in a situation that could be damaging to my company, I have to be very honest with an employee that may hurt them, their feelings, and may even require a severed relationship. They're fired. Absolutely. If in that moment I am trying to be a friend instead of caring for the whole team in the company and even that person, then yes, I'm doing it wrong. But also, there's a lot of humanity when it comes to dealing with people and helping them grow. And people had a lot of grace for me coming up, and there may be moments I need to have grace for this person. It's a dance. It's not an either or that I'M always going to be brutally honest or I'm always going to be incredibly empathetic. So I think, though, the first principle of Badass Softy is the idea that think in terms of leadership, as these kind of often dichotomies as more of a dance, less of balance and more of a dance. How do they work together in making things happen? The other thing for me, and this comes from the story background. So my PhD is in narrative theory. I've studied story and the influence of story on how to make move people to action. Like how you actually use story in a principle called narrative transportation. Invite people into a story that actually causes them to move. And these principles go all the way back to Aristotle and Plato. Even in Poetics, they were writing about how they were trying to make the perfect society. And in order to make the perfect society, they would argue that the best way to do this was a story. And they would even argue that if you want to reach the masses, you use humor. If you want to reach the elite, you use drama. Like, it kind of even breaks down all the stuff anyway. One of the main principles in storytelling is that the hero always gets into a conundrum in their story. There's a problem that they experience, and a guide has to come along to help them win the day. So there's always a Yoda, a Gandalf, an Aslan, a Haymitch. There's somebody Dumbledore, who comes along to help that hero win. And I've been teaching people for years in marketing that your job is to be the guide, not the hero of the story. You are the Yoda, and the people your customers are the are Luke Skywalker. This principle is really also a piece that leans into badass softy. What does it mean to be a badass softy? The way that a guide shows up in a story is with two characteristics. They have to have empathy for their care for the hero's problem, and they have to have the authority to fix it. Both of those things have to exist in order for the guide to show up in a story. So Obi Wan Kenobi has to know what it's like to try to become a Jedi. He's got empathy. He also had to, you know, fight Darth Vader, which Luke has to do. So he has empathy. He also is way stronger. He's a Jedi. He's the strongest person in the universe in that moment. So he has both of those things. That, to me, is another principle of badass softy. You show up with empathy and authority. But the fun thing for me about that is in story, narrative theory is the guide is always the strongest character in the story, but the story isn't about them. So when they show up, Luke is the hero. But Luke in, in Star wars is up, down, he's insecure, he's left alone. He fails, he falls on his butt like, it's just like this. The whole movie, he's like this. He doesn't become strong until the very end. Obi Wan Kenobi, Yoda, steady the whole time. They are the strongest character, and you have to have both. And so when it comes to being a badass softy, it's not about toxic empathy, and it's not about blustered, trying to prove yourself. It's a confident standing in your authority. You know what you're doing. You have the experience, you have the track record. And when you don't, you know, hey, I'm not a guide in this story, but I know somebody who is. And you, you help refer to other people. But the guide doesn't, like, you never hear Obi Wan Kenobi, like Luke Skywalker go, are you sure I should trust the Force? Does this force really work? And then the Obi Wan Kenobi go, you know what? I don't know. No, he doesn't back down. He's strong. And so the first principle of it is you got to understand that everything is a dance. The second principle is if you're going to narrow it down to two things, I would argue it's empathy and competency. And that is not about how you show up necessarily for other people. But I honestly think it's how you show up for yourself. You have to show up with the confidence that you know what you're doing and have that experience to do. And, and because if, if you show up and you start going, I don't know, you know, if that one. That's not good for you. But also if you show up insecure and you start going, well, I am better than this. And I. And you try to prove yourself, you're also going to hurt people. You show up with both. And then I would say the third principle that I'm kind of leaning into is this idea of, of showing up with joy. I think that's really becoming a very strong principle for me. Is that work? And this goes back to some other research even as well, comes down to Viktor Frankl, who was, if you, if you heard of him, Man's Search for Meaning. He wrote a book and he really did the study on how People meaning. And he was a contemporary of Freud, and he contended with Freud. Freud said that man searches for pleasure. And Viktor Frankl said, no man searches for meaning. When he doesn't find it, he settles for pleasure. And the way that he finds ple. Meaning in life, the way you find meaning was really in three primary things. One, you are a part of something and believe in something that is bigger than yourself. Two, you are surrounded by people who love you. Basically, you have a community. And three, you find a redemptive perspective on your suffering. And so all of those things, to me, are about finding joy. It's like looking for joy in the bigger thing, in the community around you, and in the moments when grief and life is hard. Finding a redemptive perspective on that is what means looking for joy.
Yeah, Chris, I'm over here chuckling, by the way, because if you think about the three things that JJ just broke down, and if you have known me for any length of time, joy, happy, guide, hopeful, humble, human. Right? Like, and jj, just so you know, like, for years, I've literally closed out, like, my video tutorials for HubSpot of, like, and don't forget to be a happy, helpful, humble human. Do some happy hubspotting along the way. Like, that's literally been the. The tagline, but it's also part of the superhuman framework where, like, be happy, be helpful, be humble. Like, there's 10 H pillars that are part of this thing in four cornerstones. But it's like, I listen to you and I'm like, yeah, if we encompass what we're saying, it's like, here's how to show up as a whole ass human. And by the way, when you don't hate half of your life, you can bring that in to be the guide for others because you have the empathy of the pain and travels that you went through. And I love that you brought up kind of Yoda, too, because I'll never forget, I was in the theater when the guide turned into the hero. And, like, all of a sudden, he's jumping around and the whole crowd is, like, freaking out because we got to see the guide in who he probably once was as a younger person, this, like, massive, like, ninja character. And I think think that what I would want to say to people is, like, people are waiting for you to be a guide, but they're also waiting for you to be a hero. And so many of us just live a life where we're broken and torn and we're making the decision, well, if I'm A softie. They'll make fun of me. If I'm a badass, I'm a dick. And like, so sweet. Merge those two together and you might just be on the right road to do both. Being guide and a hero in life.
Leave.
Yeah.
Well, yeah. And wait just a second there. This is where I need. Need some help, fellas? Like, just push them together. Just, just do it right. Like, so help me unpack this baggage that I think a lot of people listening to this have baggage like this. But by the way, like the happy episode that we did last year, George, I'm pretty sure that was the favorite of the whole series where it came down JJ to Joy. And it was around the time that the narrative started building around AI replacement and things like that. And one of the things we talked about was how a lot of people are going to need help understanding what Joy even looks like for them. And I think it's a lot of what the structure that I'm going to go through because this is where Value first is trying to come from, is all this baggage exists. And I'm tired of sitting in meetings where everybody's nodding their heads like, yep, that makes so much sense. And then they just have no idea on how to break it down. In 2017, at the end of 2016, I had just sat in a meeting where we just had our first down year ever. And it was one of those one hour meetings where nothing got got really said or was accomplished. And I'm like, all right, I've never wanted to be a leader, but I guess like, somebody's got to do it, right? 10 person organization. And after that I meet and I'm not exaggerating the story at all. Like I meet in that first quarter of 2017, I meet HubSpot, which introduces me to the HubSpot podcast that George and Marcus did that led me to they ask, you answer. And I also met storybrand, like in that quarter. Right. So just bombarded with like, yep, yeah, this makes so much sense. Like, of course, like, all right, let's do it. And then I wasn't able to do it right at the 10 person organization, at the, you know, 1200 person organization, at the 50 person organization. And most of the experience has been with story brand, like where it's everybody, like, nobody can deny that the hero dynamics that you just talked about. And when we're in a room and everybody loves the message that we create and then we go put it on the website, they're like, oh, we can't, can't Say that, that like nobody else is saying that. I don't think that's. It's gonna not gonna feel right. It's too fluffy, like blah, blah, blah. What. How do we start this? Like implement this kind of change? Because that's where like this I'm just another. Got three different frameworks happening here basically that are all I, I feel like attempting to help people transition because now you need to transform like right now with what AI is doing and rethinking everything, knowing that there is a place for every human and the value that you can create now with AI has just gone through the roof. If you can put yourself in a place to realize it. How do we help people break free in order to make common sense decisions inside of their business?
First smack them. And then, you know, here's, here's what I will say this. You know, there's a couple, there's. I know there's some proverb about this somewhere or you know, even Chinese proverb, maybe it's even biblical. But it's the, you know, the idea if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go further, go together. And when you invite people in to come into this kind of story, it will go slower. Like that's one of, I would say the trade offs of this is that if you yourself was like, screw all of you, I'm doing this myself, you would do it faster. You would honestly probably do it in some ways better pieces of it better and you would get it done out there and yet you would leave everybody behind and ultimately you wouldn't succeed in the long run. So one thing I think people need to understand is when you actually lean into this dance versus a black and white thinking it will take longer to do. That's principle number one. The other piece of it too, in, I mean there was so much that was kind of going through my head as you're talking and then I'll let turn it over to George. But one of the things too with the story brand framework itself that's really been interesting to me is when I show up to work with a company and I'm helping them redo their message, I can tell within about five minutes what, what people, how this has been presented to them. So I show up and I can see people's arms crossed and they're like on their phones, they're not looking at me and all this stuff. And what typically happens is then the president of the company will stand up and go, hey, I read this book. You all know how excited I am about it. I know you don't know anything about it, but we're doing this, this is the direction we're going. And then it's my job over the next three hours to convince people that they need to, to use this framework. Right? So the presentation. So yes, they've bought into the framework, but the way they haven't presented this as a journey, that inviting these people into a story. So when you're talking about saying buying into the story brand framework, even for messaging, where as a company we are the guide, our customer is the hero. When I as a leader have to get people on board to be excited about the story brand framework work or just excited about anything, I have to think of it in leadership terms. In the same way, I can't go in and say, hey everybody, we're doing this. You get on board or get out. Instead I have to say, here's what I've heard from you that you are all struggling with. That's positioning them as the hero of the story. Here's your struggle, here's I get it. Empathy. I've actually been doing research, we've been studying all this stuff for a long time, bringing in some authority and then say, here's a plan that I'm going to offer you that's going to help you win and overcome the problems you're experiencing. So it, you have to, even in leadership, not just in messaging, but in leadership, every time you get up, start with, what problem am I here to solve for the people who are in this room? And it can be as simple as, I was just working with a company that they sent out an email that said, hey, it's getting to the end of the year. We need everybody to tell us what equipment they have so we can figure, so we can do a, our end of year report. And they couldn't get people to fill out. It took 30 seconds to say, this is the type of computer I have, this is the microphone I have, these are the headphones I have. That's all they needed people to do and people wouldn't do it. And I said, well, you're, you're just telling them we need to save money on taxes, we need to make more money. So you need to tell us about depreciation in your. They get it and they're, they're not going to take time to pull up this stoop, find the email, pull up the stupid form and fill it out. Instead. If you said, hey, we know a lot of you are using equipment that is on its last legs and that is keeping you from doing your job well. We're going to ask you to fill out this form so we know where we can buy new equipment and help you get more advanced stuff so that you can continue doing your job better. Now, for the company, it's all about how do we write off depreciation, how do we spend the money we have, have before the end of the year. All of that. That doesn't matter to the person who has to spend time finding that email, filling out that form. So even in. So when you ask about how do you get people on board instead of going in and going, all right, we are. And I'm not saying you did this, but, like, instead of going and going, we're going to do story brand. We're going to do this new thing. You have to step back and go, how do I recognize that everybody in this room is struggling? They're feeling like they're. Their job might be on the line. We're all like, we're down this quarter, so everybody is a little nervous. How do I walk into that room and go, here's what you're all struggling with. I get it, because I'm struggling with it too. But also, I have a way forward. And here is our way forward with clarity and strength. That's one of the ways that I would say to do that. So, George, I'll let you talk now.
Yeah.
Words matter. Buy in is key. To get the buy in you want, you have to weave the words in the direction of what's in it for them, not what's in it for me. Okay. Now, Chris, when you first were kind of going through that thing, one word smacked me, like, right in my. My cranium, my soul. And that's the word care. And what I mean by that is there's kind of two directions of the word care. I'm gonna care more about you and the ultimate outcome than I am gonna care about what you might think of me when I say or do the thing that I'm about to say or do. And this has literally been kind of one of my little superpowers of, like, if I'm meeting with somebody, talking with somebody, and I just get this thing of, like, they need to hear it, I'm gonna say it it. Because I care about the human more than I care about if I get laughed at. And so many people. It's like, I'll never forget when we first started trying to teach people to get on video. It's like, I would literally be like, you've got to care about the humans on the other side of the screen more than your ears, your nose, your voice, your weight. The only thing I need you to care about is the value of the words coming out of your mouth. And so a healthy relationship of, like, just caring and not caring or not giving a shit is like the way that you get things to actually happen or conversations to take place that otherwise don't. Because everybody's so worried about staying surface level and safe that they're not willing to dig in and make change.
And there's, you know, the two principles there again, kind of going back to badass off D and this human side of things. Caring, but also having the competency. Right? It's like those two things go together. And again, I know it's. I'm beating a drum about this, but the research actually shows that those trust those leaders who show up with warmth and competence. So the caring and the strength actually are both more trusted and more followed willingly. This comes from a Harvard study by this woman named Amy Cootie, I believe is her name, Amy Cuddy. But basically, when people show up, when leaders show up with warmth and competency together, they are more trusted and people follow them more willingly. When you just show up with warmth, people actually don't trust you. They actually don't because they don't know that you're gonna. It would be like me, I use this example in my marketing workshops is if. If I go to a gym and talk to a trainer and say to that trainer, hey, I'm here to lose 30 pounds. And that trainer goes, me too. I'm not paying that trainer to go with me in this journey. I don't just need a friend in this. My. My friend can go work out with me, but I'm not paying somebody else. Also, though, if I show up to that gym and that trainer lifts up his six pack and shows me. I mean, lifts up his shirt and shows me a six pack, shows me he's competent, and goes, well, you got to get off your butt, fatty. I'm not paying that guy either. Show up. I don't know why I'm going back the third time to this gym, but I go back a third time and I say to a trainer, you know, I'm here to lose 30 pounds. And that guy goes, hey, I used to be 30 pounds overweight myself, but I figured out a way to take it off, keep it off. And I've helped about a hundred other people do that. That now is the person I'm paying. And those are extreme Examples. But that's often how, how we show up as leaders is we show up a little bit like hey everybody. Or I've seen this, hey everybody, we're gonna hug before we get started. And, and they've got some really bad news to tell you and they're trying to like be like, well I brought cookies and we're gonna like, everybody's really happy about this and it's not a big deal and we're not doing anything wrong, but we're firing you all. Here's some pizza. I hope you know it's like no, like that nobody trusts that leader. But also if somebody comes in just cold hearted and goes, hey, sales are down, we gotta fire half of you. Also not gonna work. But you show up with both and you say like, hey here. Because here's the thing in a narrative principle, right? When the guide shrinks in a story, it doesn't serve the hero. That's the biggest thing is that actually when the guide shrinks in their authority, it doesn't move the story forward. Now the story actually becomes about them. It's not about the hero anymore. Now we've got to fix the guide. So you can't have the guide. Right? I, I remember one time showing up for this, this workshop that I'd been hired to come in to do. And it was for this investment company that bought like companies to grow them to like 100 million. They like started at 10, grow them to 100, sell them and they would recruit these high end leaders from other companies who had like close to retirement or retiring, give them equity. So it's a small group, maybe 20. They only select very cool company by the way, like everything about to say this, it's a very cool company and I love them. But they brought me in and I'm show up the night before and I'm walking around this hotel that is like has peacocks in the lobby and like gold. And I mean it's just like the most kind of intimidating hotel I've ever been in. And the first person I come up to was a former vice president of Disney. That's just like sitting in the lobby and the, the owner like introduces me and he's kind of like, hey, you know, I, I know story. I kind of have written story. Like people study me about story. And he's like, so hope I can learn something tomorrow. He actually like, he went through this whole thing, he literally said, I hope I learned something tomorrow. The next person who came in was the former president of Xerox and said you know, he. He said, wow, you know, it's kind of crazy that you're here. You know, this is going to be the most expensive room you've ever been in, right? And I was like, okay. And I was like, yeah, no, that's great. And then the next person turned out to be the founder of Shutterfly. And he came up to me, and he was also very kind, very nice. But he was also. There was a. The thing that I grabbed on to in the conversation. He said, I built a company on. On story. So I've, like, studied story my whole life. So I'm sitting there, and literally, those are the first three people I meet, are all basically, like, prove yourself. Like, kind of looking at me with skepticism. The next morning, I'm, like, nervous, and the owner of the company comes up to me and kind of jokingly, but still says to me, you know, we spent a lot of money to have you here. I hope this is going to be good. And he wasn't talking about just me being. They spent money on all. Like, taking these huge people out of their company for two days was very expensive. So I get ready to walk on stage, and I have the microphone, and I'm not kidding. My hand is shaking. Like, I am just like, holy crap, what am I gonna do here? And I had about five seconds as they're introducing me to be like, figure out what I was gonna do. And first thing that came to my mind was I had just seen an interview with Carson Daly where he said he had anxiety. And the way he gets rid of it, he goes on camera is by squeezing his hands together. So I did something really practical. I just squeezed my hands together. The second thing I did was pause for a second and remind myself that this was a gift for the people in the room that the. Not just, like, because I'm giving this very special gift, but the people who had paid for me to be there, they were gifting this to them. Those people get to choose whether they're going to accept the gift or not. My job was to deliver the gift.
Shift.
So that was the second thing. And then the third thing really was to say that me shrinking in that moment serves nobody. So if I walk up on stage and I'm still shaking and I stand up there, and I'm like, hey, guys. Wow, this is an intimidating room. Can I get a selfie with everybody? This is kind of crazy. Like, if I did that, that's not going to serve me. And it really is not going to serve them because they're not Going to really listen to anything I say. But instead, I walked up on stage and I just looked at the room and I said, every single person is here because you want to grow your business. I'm going to tell you right now, most of you are making a huge mistake in your marketing, and it's costing you millions, and you don't even know it. So not being arrogant, not being rude, I got up and I said, this is the problem you're experiencing, and I'm here to help you with it. And that was it. And I was able to go into my flow from the There in that room, every single person had more experience in business than me. They had been paid more than me. They were making more money in that moment than I was making maybe in a year. And yet, when it came to this small slice of. Of what I was there to show up, to do, I was the smartest person in the room. And I needed to remind myself of that. Not out of arrogance, but out of competency. I've studied. I have the experience. I've been in rooms like this before, and I Me showing up with both of things, that warmth, and I brought in warmth throughout, but with the warmth and care for them, this is a gift. I am giving this to them as a gift. Whether they see it or not, this is a gift. And then also, I know what I'm doing. And in this small slice of this piece of the world, I am the smartest person in the world. So let's move that forward together. And then ended up, like, changing. A lot of them changed their. Like, their elevator pitches based on what I said. Some of them hired me to come in later. None of that would have happened if I would have walked up to there and shrank in that moment and dropped my competency.
That's. Oh, man, that is a. It's a great story, and I appreciate you sharing that. I've got to find a way to wrap up this conversation. I could. Or I could clear the schedule. I mean, you guys let me know.
As you figure out how to wrap it up. Here's one thing I want to. I want to put a little mindset that hit my brain. Brain. Jj, as you're telling your story, you're like, they were more this than me. They were more that many in the moment. They were. Than me. But you know what? Nobody in that room could be was you. And I wish people would just realize when they walk into a room, there's power in just being who you are, living the life that you've lived. Having the stories to tell that you can tell. You just gotta embrace the you, the badass you and the selfie you and. And just show up like, I hope people take some lessons from this and just start showing up as a whole ass human and realize you're special.
Special.
Yeah. And just kind of bring it back. Sorry, I know you're rapping, but we. We haven't really talked about AI Much in this, but this is actually why I think it's so important to understand these things even more. In that AI World. AI does not have its own point of view. It will never. I really believe it will never have its own point of view. It has to get its point of view from you. So if you tone down who you are, your voice, your expertise, your thoughts, in the information you're putting into AI it will come out muddy, it will come out blah. It will come out. You have to be pot. You have to step up with a point of view. Your point of view is based on your experience, your values, your care, your expertise, your care for the humans. When you take that and start with that, then put it into AI Let it create. You have to curate the content ahead of time. Let AI Create and then curate assets. That's your job. But you have to have a point of view, and the only person who has your point of view in the world is you. Don't. Don't damp that down for the sake of turning it over to a machine.
Well said. I'm looking for one tip, jj, because I think we can all speak from a very personal place to the softies that maybe can reach a little higher and, you know, be a little more ambitious. The. The. The badasses who think that that's all there's room for, and that's how they got into their place. But they're in this moment right now where they know they've got to figure something out to operate differently. What is the tip? The first tip to help them unlock this side of themselves, because they all have it, right? They're just not used to showing up in this way.
Yeah. And. And let me say, too, that, like, this is not everything we're saying to me is not an indictment on the people who are completely driven. Like, if that's how you are built, then run. Run, baby, run. Like, you know, we need you in this world, too. You know, I think a lot of times people break down doors with bombs, and some people break down doors, doors by carrying a candle. I'm more of a candle person, but sometimes I need those, like Kick in the door people anyway, the. The be that person. But I think just based even on our conversation today, the one tip I would say is look for joy. Joy is a practice. It's not something we just discover or happens to us naturally. It's actually a practice. And the practice comes through gratitude, relationship beauty. So when you're looking for those moments, and so even, you know, people talk about a gratitude journal. There's so much science behind even a gratitude journal in the morning, but pausing in the morning or in the evening and going, what am I grateful for in my life today and my work today, in my relationships today? Leaning into the relationships a little bit more, Allowing beauty and whimsy to sneak in in the middle of the day. When you do that, you are going to be able to again recover from the stress and recover from sickness much easier. But also it allows you to find more meaning and purpose in. In the drive. So it's not just drive for the sake of drive, but it is drive for the sake of your own values, your own family, and your own personal happiness.
Can I say one thing, Chris?
Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen, joy is not out there. Joy is in here. And if you want to have that joy, you might want to spend some time getting the cobwebs and dust bunnies out of the closet of words that are hanging inside that no longer should be there. I don't care if it's a dad or a mom told you this or a math teacher told you, never amount to anything. You got to do the inner work to have the joy that Dr. J.J. peterson is talking about right now.
Now.
Oh, man, what a fantastic conversation. I appreciate both of you so much. If you're out there and you learned some lessons and you want to, you know, dig in a little deeper, please go check out the the Badass Offy podcast. And next week, we'll be back with Value First Humans. More episodes breaking down the Value First Humans commitments that really is, I don't overstate, I think, how common sense some of this stuff is. All the research in the world, so many examples. Hopefully we resonated somewhere along the line today. And again, George, J.J. thank you so very much.
Thanks, Chris.
My honor, this was so fun.
